[Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

[Michael]

Quick comments which I hope help - this isn't an either this OR that
situation.

It's an unexpected awesome curveball.

I don't think there's a single part of what you've written,  that I
disagree with. As a programmer, from a free software perspective, from the
perspective of tools, from a 'what happens if you lose access to the
compiler' (host down, end of life x years down line etc), and so on, heck
even from the perspective of a cub/scout leader running a session with 24
kids in a Hall without Internet connectivity,  and or a teacher wanting to
keep lesson on track.

All of those concerns fed into the system for the schools trial,  and into
the recommendation for open source, which fell on a fertile audience (their
default assumption) so to speak.  We'd chatted about creating .debs of the
system so that schools could run their local servers easily (which is why
I'd looked into PPA's), the possibility of a local offline editor with the
compilation tool chain, etc. (That used IOToy's PySide based editor).
Indeed,  once the stack is released as open source,  which should include
the prototype version,  I'll do just that. When it comes to logins, I was
rather undiplomatic and detailed and clear about issues, and consequences,
etc. That fed into the spec, etc :-)

That all hopefully explains just how wonderfully surprised we were by
micropython. It wipes out whole classes of issues in one swoop, as you
say,  providing real fun opportunities,  and capabilities, in a much better
way.

Ie, in short I get it,  and I'm also *far* from the only person agreeing
with you.

But,  I'm a 41 year old bloke - not 11, and this goes right to the heart of
the proposition, in my mind. While getting teachers in board is vital, the
target audience is the kids. Not only that an entire slice of the
population at 11,  not one demographic.

I think we all tend to know that the interesting things will happen at
home,  when the kids are not supported, except perhaps by friends and
YouTube videos they make for each other.

My concern is that some children would look at the device running python,
without BLE, and see it as a less capable platform than those running touch
develop or blocks. That perception would be 'WRONG' (I view stand alone
programmability as far superior), but because the workflow or functionality
they're used to simply not working, and not having access to bluetooth.
They'd blame python, or worse themselves.

I'm not talking here about the 2-5 geeks per class,  but the rest of the
class. The outcome of that might be that far from having the positive
effect we all want, it has a negative impact on how children view python vs
(say) touch develop.

Personally,  I suspect that's minimal risk, but it needs *considering* . We
don't really want kids looking at this thinking 'I can't do as much',
simply because one thing is different.

Also, I think those of us that have worked with 11 year olds know that
sometimes the ones that do that - that give up - are often the ones you'd
least want to... (That's what I see in scouts for example, and that starts
as early as Cubs)

HOWEVER, Why do I think it's minimal risk?

* I actually believe that at home,  kids will use generally the wired
connection not bluetooth for getting programs onto devices. (I have NO data
on how realistic that is)

* As you say,  when working with python in KS3 *now*, this does as you say
match the way they currently work.

* At 11 they're still just young enough,  and willing enough to accept
'this is the way this works,  this is the way you do *this*'. They can be
often proto-teenagers at that age,  but they do tend to still accept this
:-)

Scenarios that seem likely though: (how common, or in one case how
desirable I'm not sure)

* Using bluetooth as a remote control - eg for controlling toys etc.  This
would require a more motivated 11 year old though,  with more resources.

* Using a tablet to code beneath the bed sheets, and wanting to get code
into their device. This either requires bluetooth (for ease), a suitable
cable or Web service to access their python code later.

I'm more concerned about the former obviously, though the bed sheets one of
accessing code through the cloud is actually a problem I believe we'd all
like to solve for out bed scenarios :) Which is why the prototype had a
more 'github for kids' approach' in terms if store/approach.

So, If we can eliminate that minor doubt,  it'd be great.  If we can't, we
can find another way. Figuring out IF this can be done would make a great
bounty fwiw.

On the final point about NDAs, etc.  We've been chatting about that - I
raised just how anti-thetical they are to many,  if not many on this list,
and the team have said they'll have a check to see if it's really still
needed, and/or if there is a more open alternative.

This isn't however about saying this OR that. The baby and the bathwater
are safe as I understand it.

Put bluntly,  I think we all know on this list that any solution that
doesn't have micropython as part of it would suck, and we're just looking
to see where the gaps lie, where they're easy to fix,  possible to fix or
hard. And that there's a niggle of a worry that if one of the gaps is
viewed by kids is important that python *could* be viewed in a way none of
us want.

Finally,  3 questions,  with the answers I'd suspect in brackets:

* Does that make sense? (I hope yes)
* Are we overly worried? (Possibly)
* Would the python community want to take that risk?  (Almost certainly,
it's less of a risk than Python 3)

On that basis,  there are IMO two main things to figure out:

* How to make the micropython dev  environment the best it can be in the
time we have.

* How to make the UX experience,  including code sharing the best it can
be. Perhaps based around using the blocks editor as a template, since that
had to store and share text already. However, this is also very similar to
the problem that Code Kingdoms are facing for their work, so there's also
alternatives there.

As I say does that make any sense?

Best Regards,

Michael.
On 12 Jul 2015 01:42, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 11/07/15 22:59, Finney, Joe wrote:
> > I agree with Michael here, there is a risk that not having BLE will
> > limit the potential of a micropython based platform.
>
> I disagree. The benefits far outweigh the lack of BLE (although I
> totally share your desire to make BLE work if at all possible).
> Apologies in advance for the evangelical tone I take - like you, I'm
> completely floored by what Damien has achieved, both as a Python
> programmer and as a teacher.
>
> I wish you could see it in action. Programming the device directly via
> the Python REPL is a hugely compelling educational activity. Kids love
> the immediacy of it all (we see this every year at PyCon UK when kids as
> young as 7 blinkenlight with LEDs and a RPi). :-)
>
> As a programmer and teacher who values freedom and flexibility, being
> able to use the tools *I* choose to work with is important. Writing
> Python using my preferred editor and dragging the .py file to the device
> doesn't lock me into a single hosted platform that I won't be familiar
> with. It also reduces the risks associated with a project that relies on
> the goodwill of third party corporate sponsorship. There is no third
> party with MicroPython - it's just you and the device.
>
> That it's *real* Python is also a wonderful thing - the learning pathway
> from the micro:bit to other programming activities (such as Python on
> the RPi) is a *lot* more obvious, simpler and easy to facilitate as a
> result. I get to teach in a language with which both me and my students
> are already familiar (remember, text based programming is part of KS3
> and Python is the usual way this is achieved).
>
> Classroom management is also a lot easier with a device you just plug
> in, connect to and type instructions. I know from experience how painful
> getting a class of 30 kids to sign into a website can be. What happens
> to the lesson if the school's connection goes down 5 minutes in? Who
> sets up the accounts? What happens if I'm on XP with IE6 (still somewhat
> common in schools with creaking old IT infrastructure)?
>
> Furthermore, that it is an alternative also means we're facilitating
> exploration, experimentation and evaluation - all essential
> skills/attitudes for a successful engineer.
>
> As a kid I'm motivated by Python because it's a real programming
> language. The skills I'm learning have real economic value and, hells
> bells, MicroPython is being evaluated by the ESA for use in space bound
> payloads. Who doesn't want to write code on a platform that maybe used
> in space!?! Think of the imaginative / inspirational angle of that..!
>
> Personally, I think kids are going to have a lot of fun poking around
> with all the other stuff MicroPython can do.
>
> There's also a positive spin on the current lack of BLE: having unsolved
> problems is also a good thing for building a community too. There's
> nothing like a challenge to get people diving in and engaging... that's
> why I'm trying to get Howard to give us as many micro:bits as he can
> spare. It'll create such a buzz in the wider Python community. ;-)
>
> If there is some way in which it can be made to work then I *definitely*
> think we should try. The Python Software Foundation (PSF) intends to
> create "bounties" for Python related work and progress on the device.
> BLE could be a good candidate when the project finally opens up. It's
> far better that it works or we attempt to make it work than to not try
> at all.
>
> Having said that, this all depends on how much the BBC are willing to
> support these "off script" MicroPython efforts. Those of us in the
> Python community who went through the process of signing an NDA,
> volunteering personal weekend time and exploring the available options
> certainly believe it is, by far and away, the best Python solution for
> the micro:bit.
>
> Damien has delivered an epic solution. Of course we should attempt to
> make it the best solution we can, but not to go with an already
> compelling solution would simply be throwing away the baby with the
> bathwater.
>
> Such is life: a series of compromises in an ever changing world. ;-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nicholas.
>
>
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