Fwd: Installation hell

[Thomas Passin]

On 12/19/2022 3:34 PM, j wrote:
> I was unclear. I use the full path to the folder with the unzipped 
> python-embedded. I shouldn't have said 'set'.
> 
> I have complained on here before about broken installs but got 
> indifference. An installer should install stuff correctly (leaving a 
> working environment). If it won't then give clear instructions on how to 
> install manually then let us do it. A broken installer is like a road 
> that just runs out.

Yes, I've had a few of those, just not with Python so far.  One problem 
with a list like this is that if other people don't have the problem or 
can't make it happen, then they don't have any suggestions based on 
personal experience.  So they can't be helpful.  In this issue, I'm in 
that category.

In that situation, we (the list-people, I mean) need good information to 
have a chance of being helpful.  But I've observed that many requestors 
for help like this - especially installation issues - don't provide any 
useful particulars.  That makes it seem like they don't understand what 
they are doing, and folks would like them to do their homework and think 
about what it would take for other people to have a chance of helping.

Would you try to cook a meal, and then say "I followed the recipe and it 
didn't work, please help"?  It's impossible.  But I've seen this kind of 
question over and over on this list.

I did once have a Python installation problem.  The installed Python 
executable worked, but later I ran into some permissions problem.  I had 
installed for "everyone", so it installed into Program Files, and 
apparently somewhere along the way I had done something odd to the 
permissions for that directory.  I was never sure what.  I uninstalled, 
and since then I have always installed new versions for just one user 
(me). Never a problem since.

I'm sorry to say that I have never tried an embedded install, and I 
don't know what's different about one.  Maybe I'll try one now, just to 
know.

> Dismissals about 'lazy people' (for example) aren't helpful if you are 
> trying to get some actual work done.

Yes, that's true. Lack of clear information isn't helpful, either.

Well this is getting too long, and not directly helping with any of your 
problems.  I hope it may be informative for others who want to ask for 
help. To be able to help someone, I have to understand just what they 
were trying to do, what they did, what happened that caused them to 
think their efforts failed, and what error messages the system emitted. 
That may not be enough either, but it's a required starting point. 
Without this kind of information, people who want to help feel frustrated.

> jan
> 
> 
> On 19/12/2022 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:
>> On 12/19/2022 12:28 PM, j via Python-list wrote:
>>> I agree. Wasted too much time on last few installs.
>>>
>>> It got to the point I downloaded python-embedded, unzipped it and set 
>>> the path manually for my work (needed it as part of a compiler).
>>
>> I don't set those paths.  If you have several different versions 
>> installed, who knows which one the path will find first?  Probably not 
>> the one you want.  Without paths to the script files, I need to set 
>> them temporarily, navigate to to the right directory first, or create 
>> a dedicated batch file, but at least I get the right ones that way.
>>
>> I don't find it to be a problem.
>>
>>> It ain't good enough. And I like python.
>>>
>>> jan
>>>
>>> On 18/12/2022 11:50, Jim Lewis wrote:
>>>> I'm an occasional user of Python and have a degree in computer science.
>>>> Almost every freaking time I use Python, I go through PSH (Python Setup
>>>> Hell). Sometimes a wrong version is installed. Sometimes it's a path 
>>>> issue.
>>>> Or exe naming confusion: python, python3, phthon311, etc. Or library
>>>> compatibility issues - took an hour to find out that pygame does not 
>>>> work
>>>> with the current version of python. Then the kludgy PIP app and 
>>>> using a DOS
>>>> box under Windows with command prompts which is ridiculous. God only 
>>>> knows
>>>> how many novice users of the language (or even intermediate users) were
>>>> lost in the setup process. Why not clean the infrastructure up and 
>>>> make a
>>>> modern environment or IDE or something better than it is now. Or at 
>>>> least
>>>> good error messages that explain exactly what to do. Even getting this
>>>> email to the list took numerous steps.
>>>>
>>>> -- A frustrated user
>>