Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Richard Damon]

On 5/6/21 6:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>> On 5/5/21 10:44 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>>>> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
>>>> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
>>>> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
>>>> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
>>>> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.
>>> As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
>>> isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
>>> suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
>>> better.
>> Not so sure you are longer than me, I started on usenet is the late 80s
>> with dial up.
> Yes, me too ;-)
>
>>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
>>> difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
>>> away from the point of view of the group participants.
>> The big difference is that the mailing list directly gets its email from
>> the senders, and that was totally over SMTP so some From: verification
>> is possible, thus it make sense to let email addresses be validated for
>> whitelisting. Submissions from the moderated group have lost all
>> traceability to the original sender when it get forwarded via the NNTP
>> transportation link, so such a white list might not be as viable, and on
>> usenet many people intentionally post without valid From addresses, so a
>> LOT more messages will end up in the moderation queue, so more work for
>> the moderators.
> I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
> *already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
> will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
> say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
> between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
> direct.

It will. First, python-list at python.org is NOT a "Moderated" mailing list
by the standard definition of such. Maybe you could call it Moderatable,
but most messages make it to the list without any intervention by a
moderator. The Mailman software that runs the list allows the
administrators of the list to put select filters on posts, or to make
certain posters moderated and need their posts reviewed, but most posts
go through automatically and immediately. This works because the SMTP
Email system have a must better presumption of the From address in the
message actually being who the sender is then under NNTP rules. Forging
it is detectable in many cases and generally a violation of the TOS for
most providers (and the ones that don't can easily be blocked).

While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.

The current setup does put rules at the gateway that controls what gets
onto the mailing list, and because it IS a gateway, there are easier
grounds to establish that some posts just won't be gated over from
usenet to the mailing list. Putting those same limits onto the moderated
group itself would be against Usenet norms. This would mean that the
Usenet moderation queue WILL require significant additional work over
what is currently being done for the mailing list.

If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.

-- 
Richard Damon