Helping Windows first time users

[Barry Scott]

> On 16 Apr 2020, at 08:45, Mike Dewhirst <miked at dewhirst.com.au> wrote:
> 
> On 16/04/2020 2:46 pm, DL Neil via Python-list wrote:
>> On 16/04/20 3:34 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:23:43 +0100, Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org>
>>> declaimed the following:
>>> 
>>>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>>>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>>> 
>>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/ 
>>>> 
>>>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>>>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>>>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>>>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>>> 
>>>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>>> 
>>>     No other Windows installers that I know of provide information on how
>>> to use the installed application. Anyone installing software should realize
>>> that the installer file itself is just that, an installer, and not be used
>>> in attempts to run the installed application, they should look elsewhere
>>> for the application itself.
>>> 
>>>     I would also note that there are MANY Python installers for Windows:
>>> Python.org, ActiveState, Anaconda, Enthought, and even (for Win10) the M$
>>> "app store" has one. Are you proposing that all these sources need to make
>>> changes to their distributions?
>> 
>> 
>> @Barry's observation is that many first-time Python-on-Windows users seem to fail at the first click. (I have also voiced similar concerns 'here')
> 
> I use Python on both Windows and Linux. Therefore I more or less disqualify myself from being able to comment. I have found ways to operate successfully and would only really be able to suggest what works for me. But I do feel moved to offer my thoughts.
> 
> The real solution is to more closely define the target audience plus the Python precise skill attainment desired.
> 
> Carefully describe/define the first-time Python user on Windows. Then prepare the installer to suit that definition.

At a first guess its the folks that email screen snap shots to us on a daily basis and ask about why python prompts to repair, uninstall.

> 
> The description might specify the level of Windows expertise (or lack of) in exquisite detail. You need age, gender, education level, etc. You need a real person in your mind's eye to prepare the product for. You need to be able to imagine the answer to any question you might ask such an imaginary person. Plus understanding colleagues if they hear you asking :)
> 
> Maybe the objective is to write hello world or a simple game in a dos prompt. If gui skill attainment is felt to be important for the defined audience then hello world would probably be enough.
> 
> If the defined neophyte user is sufficiently inexperienced then forget IDEs and focus only on a text editor with syntax highlighting.
> 
> We all know how important virtual envs are and multiple Python installs but newbies don't need or even want to know that. Time enough to realise you need it when it solves a future roadblock for you. It is impossible to get started when confronted with too much information.
> 
> The bottom line is that Windows is designed to hide things from the user. Our new user might be very experienced in MS Office but knows nothing about the operating system. That means the installer needs to provide a desktop shortcut which delivers a pre-defined user experience and from which the user can emerge with clear understanding.
> 
> I would suggest one click (double-click actually) to open a command prompt with the interpreter running ready to accept input. Another which opened a getting-started document which assumes no prior knowledge but requires a ready Python interpreter. Finally another entitled "Next steps". From my perspective the installer should create a desktop folder called "Python shortcuts" to contain all such clickable nirvana.

Interesting that's what I go from Dennis's reply.

> 
> Think about a bootstrap track on a disk. There is only enough there to get to the next step.
> 
>> 
>> As mentioned, I don't pay the regular 'MSFT-tax'. However, many use MS-Windows because that's what they've been given, or must use, at their work. I have read articles which suggest that MS-Windows has improved to the point of making a good/better dev.platform. Whether *I* agree, or not, is of no import in this conversation.
> 
> But it is interesting. I use Windows because I have no choice. All my production machines are non-gui Ubuntu. I started my programming on non-gui PCs which made it simple with Windows. However, on reading some of these emails from struggling Windows users it is easy to agree Windows is not made for new devs.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike
> 
> PS:  I think the installer on Windows should install to a user-accessible location on the file system - not Program files. When I first installed Python on Windows the default location was C:\Python24 (I think). New users won't see it there but when they do need to look at it they will find it much more accessible.

I think that is a none issue as py.exe is the Windows CMD interface to python.
I stopped needing python.exe on my PATH in windows a long time ago, its just too hard to work with the PATH.
I have 14 versions of python installed at the moment. py.exe can trivially get to all of them.

I think it's a mistake to ask users to mess with the PATH on windows.

> 
> PPS: Christoph Gohlke's work should be formally supported by PSF and become "Official".

What is this work?

Barry

> 
>> 
>> 
>> If one downloads other Win-installer installed software, what happens? Is Python's Win-download following the same, expected, pattern?
>> If not, why not?
>> Why does the installer not delete itself after (successful) installation? ie why are users left a situation where (what is actually) re-installation is the most obvious 'next thing to do'?
>> 
>> 
>> What about installing a menu-item (or whatever they call those Win-10 home-screen 'boxes'), and that it either:
>> - launches Idle as a dev.env, or
>> - opens a 'DOS box' and fires-up Python from the cmdLN
>> 
>> Either would at-least allow neophytes to get-started. Neither would affect established users, who dive straight into their IDE-of-choice.
>> 
>> As for other distributions: what they do is their business. Literally! After all, (in thought) one man's baldachin is another man's canopy...
>> 
>> 
>> Meantime, we cut-down on so many of the essentially repetitive 'noise' questions on this list. Perhaps more importantly, it removes the temptation to assume that the tenth such enquiry this-week, has come from the same person as the other nine, and thus to respond bluntly, impolitely, or in an other than encouraging fashion. (see also the Python Foundation's several diversity, inclusion, and other principles)
> 
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