Autocoding project proposal.

[Sam Holden]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 02:47:21 GMT, Timothy Rue <threeseas at earthlink.net> wrote:
>On 29-Jan-02 23:48:46 Courageous <jkraska at san.rr.com> wrote:
>>>But who would have the most trouble grasping what I've been presenting
>>>but those who have been programmed to think in...
>
>>Why are you spending your time telling us how we _think_? Why are you
>>telling us about _us_? Why is it you feel the need to lecture about
>>how you _perceive the universe_ instead of actually engaging the world
>>in some way? Why is it you attempt to elicit our _approval_ for the
>>vision in your mind's eye? Why is it you think you should proselytize
>>about your _grandiose plans_?
>
>>C//
>
>
>What are you talking about?
>
>This project is an open project, it's being done in pythn and under the
>GPL. The reason for it being done on in python is because python ia GPL
>compatable and is available on many platforms.
>
>I came here seeking help to do this project but all I really have gotten
>is alot of resistance. What ever postitive productive comments there are
>have been buried in the negative.

Your communication skills are not good enough to explain your project to
the programmer types that you are seeking help from. You have been adviced
multiple times by multiple people of ways in which you could better
communicate to the very people you wish to get help from.

You have two main options that I can see:

1. Produce a working prototype of some small part of the project. It must
do something practical and must be simple to use, since you probably have
all of five minutes in which the person who downloaded it will decide if
it might be useful to them. Sample input is essential for this. The code 
itself *must* be well written (there have already been style complaints
about the current code), otherwise the programmer who downloaded it will
not bother looking at it again. Remember the programmer does not have to
help you, and has many other things to do, if they can't work out how
it works or don't like the code they will go and look for some other
project to work on.

2. Write a specification of the project. If you want programmers to
help then the spec has to be written for them. This meeans it needs
both a concise summary and detailed explanations. Every decision and
assumption must be justified in some way. Multiple use cases are
needed, showing how the user would use the system, including sample
inputs and outputs for real concrete problems. Again remember, the
programmer does not have to help you, and has many other things to do,
if they can't understand the spec they will go and look for some other
project to work on.

The first option is more likely to get people interested as concrete working
code is always preferred over just a spec.

Another thing to note, is that programmers will criticise things they don't
think are right. This does not mean they think the entire idea is worthless,
or that the person who made it is stupid/bad/whatever. It is just part of
the programming culture. It is what happens when you spend 90% of your
working time fixing problems caused by things like hard to read code, vague
specifications, special cases, invalid assumptions, ambigious designs, and 
so on. In fact most programmers I know like it when people criticise their
code or designs, since it means it can be fixed sooner - and anyone who has
done software work knows that the sooner the better always. Of course it
hurts your ego at the time, but programmers know it is for the best. Have a
look at the archives a development mailing list, like linux-kernel or
perl-porters, I think you'll find a lot of criticism - it is the way
things work.

Programmers will focus with what is wrong with something and ignore the
stuff they think is right. This is because they know 90% of their time
and effort will be spent on the stuff they think is wrong. And the
stuff that is right is right anyway, and thus doesn't need to be
mentioned. If you want to work with programmers get used to being
criticised and having the problems dwelt on and the working stuff
ignored.

>
>There is work to be done and I not being the 40 hour a week programer some
>of you are, I certainly cannot produce the code as fast or as good as
>someone who is focused into it. Current I'm working 12 hour days in a
>field that has no hands one computer work.
>
>What I do have is a prespective that can easily lead to producing an auto
>coding development environment.
>
>I would think some people would be openly interested in this, in the GPL
>sense.

If you answer people's criticisms with justifications or explanations
or changes that they can understand, then you will have a much better
chance of getting help. It is your job to explain why working on your
project would be a good idea, and why it would be better than say
contributing to python or working on encryption software.

People will criticise the one part of a good idea they don't like or
understand. Give them a good answer and they'll work with you, treat them
like a moron because they can't understand what you are saying and they'll
move to the next project instead. Explaining things is not easy, you don't
seem to have the skills required to explain things in the concrete terms that
programmers require - in which case you can either learn how, or work on 
the code yourself and get help when it is completed enough that
programmers can look at it and understand the project.



>
>Only in the comp.lang.python the spectrum apparently runs into enough of
>the proprietary world that there is enough negativity being generated to
>try and bury the project.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. No one is trying to
bury the project. Some people think it is a useless pipe-dream that doesn't
make any sense and they are possibly trying to move you along to some other
forum (since this is off-topic for both these groups). Some people don't
understand what you are trying to do at all, and do not understand the
explanations you have given - they will often criticise a point they 
think they might understand to see if it generates a response they can
understand. Your project is no where near complete enough for anyone to
feel threatened by it and thus try and bury it.

>You are contributing to that from what I recall.
>
>I need people to help me code this thing. Phil Hunt is not one of those
>people to do so, as he has so stated. Yet he has contributed to this
>thread more than anyone, but in a negative connotation sort of way.

He has tried to get you to explain things so they can be understood. If you
had followed his advice and presented a concrete example of the use of your
project, then you may have got some volunteers by now.

Negative criticism and the responses to them are what make software projects
work. If you can't handle negative feedback then don't try and get programmers
to help you.

>The problem you are complaining about is as much a choice of yours as it
>would be a choice of yours to help me code this thing.
>
>I really don't care about anyone who is going to complain about such a
>request.
>
>I need people to help code this. If you want to yell out that I looking to
>abuse other in doing this, then you do not understand because you do not
>want to.
>
>I did not come here to debate. I came here seeking coding help.

This is a discuss group (gnu,misc.discuss anyway). It is not a place to seek
coding help. If you don't want a debate don't post to a discussion forum. If
comp.lang.python is like every other comp.lang group I know then it is
also not a place to seek coding help - other than specific language problems
(such as how do I convert a string into a number?).

>If you don't like that, then I suppose you will attack me, as so many
>have. And I can't stop you.
>
>
>But consider what it make you out to be.

You just don't understand how programmers work. And until you do you
won't find many willing to help you. In fact if someone did think your ideas
were good they would probably just fork your code and do it themselves without
your involvement - since you seem to be going out of your way to turn 
people off your project.

-- 
Sam Holden