[Python-ideas] A bit meta

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 01.02.2016 19:02, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 at 00:12 M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>> Jeff's reply doesn't sound overly optimistic.
>>
>> If the only way to get Discourse working for python-ideas
>> (or any other PSF mailing list) is to *switch* to it, I'm
>> firmly -1 on that approach.
>>
>> Forums are nice for things like Stack Overflow which are focusing
>> more on questions and answer, with just a single linear
>> thread being active going from the question to the answer.
>>
>> For discussions, which often branch in multiple sub-threads and
>> don't necessarily start with a clear questions and final answers,
>> I find mailing lists much more practical and closer to real life
>> discussions in groups. Mailing list discussion "features" like
>> being able to overhear something in another thread and the jumping in
>> to participate should not be underestimated either.
>>
> 
> I don't quite understand how any of that is exclusive to a mailing list? If
> a forum has thread topics which are clearly marked with new content since
> the last time you visited then how is that any different then a threaded
> email client that tells you have new mail on that thread?

I was referring to the standard feature of email clients to
display the threads in a tree which shows the subthreads.
I haven't seen such a feature in Discourse. Some forums and gmane
use indentation to a similar effect.

The way Discourse handles replies to in-thread postings is
also a bit strange, since the replies to messages are shown
both under the parent message and in the chronological
order (i.e. twice):

https://community.lsst.org/t/understanding-and-using-discourses-flat-threading/150

See e.g.
https://community.lsst.org/t/preparing-the-dm-update-for-scientists-session/72/14
for an example.

Forking off new topics inside a thread breaks the threading
as well. In email you simply change the subject line.

>> I know that other tools have grown bridges between the UI client
>> world and serial line communication protocols, e.g. Slack and IRC,
>> which works reasonably well. If we could make that happen,
>> I'd be +1 on giving Discourse a try in order to invite new
>> input from people who prefer the forum style UI approach.
>>
> 
> I guess what we need is someone who is going to want to stay on the
> email-based side of things to look at the feature set of Discourse and let
> us know whether its feature set is adequate, or if not what is falls short
> of.

I had already posted a few links to people summarizing their
experience.

> And I have not heard what HyperKitty offers either.
>
>> PS: I've added some extra quoting chars to your reply. HTML
>> emails don't work well for mailing lists - better use plain
>> text to start with, so that the context is not lost when
>> an email client or archiver converts messages to plain text :-)
>>
> 
> That assumes you can even do that, e.g., I use Google Inbox and there is no
> plain text option. I'm afraid this is an example of the OSS community
> trying to swim against the stream where the rest of the world has moved on
> and it is slowly making it harder to get new people to participate in OSS.

Gmail sends both plain text and HTML, so this is not much of
an issue. Mailman will pick the plain text for archiving.
The formatting problems only occur when a mail client only sends
HTML which then has to be converted to plain text by Mailman
or other mail clients. Features such as indentation or highlighting
in different colors are often lost in this conversion.

Anyway, this whole discussion is way off-topic for the mailing
list and I haven't really seen a compelling argument for
switching away from mailing lists completely yet, though
several who would like to see both the mailing list and
a Discourse like client for people who prefer web UI
and forum style discussions.

I'd suggest to postpone any decision until better tools are
available to make this happen. Email is not going to go away,
but I certainly have seen a lot of other communication tools
come and go - and I bet there's something to learn in that :-)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Feb 01 2016)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...           http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...           http://zope.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
                      http://www.malemburg.com/