[Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem developers?

[Marc Garcia]

Sorry for the silly question. But how can I subscribe to dev at pydata.org?

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:58 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I added you directly. I have the access to "anyone can join" but perhaps
> I'm missing something. I'll keep poking around.
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have a
>> @pydata.org e-mail address)
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > It is managed by Google groups.
>> >
>> > I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if
>> you want to admin.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
>> >> make some of us admins?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>> >> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we
>> were
>> >> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little
>> bit
>> >> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
>> >> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising
>> activities,
>> >> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
>> >> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
>> >> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
>> >> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects
>> function
>> >> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
>> >> >>> project contributions.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
>> >> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
>> >> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
>> >> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
>> >> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
>> >> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to accomplish.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
>> >> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that
>> needs
>> >> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>> >> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could
>> also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we
>> should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
>> >> >
>> >> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around
>> managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org
>> to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so
>> definitely send ideas and thoughts.
>> >> >
>> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Andy
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> - Wes
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> >> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
>> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
>> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which
>> might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>> >> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features
>> like
>> >> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>> moderation
>> >> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split
>> parts
>> >> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful
>> for
>> >> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>> >> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
>> before you
>> >> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything
>> /
>> >> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly
>> /
>> >> >>> > ...), ...
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
>> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's
>> also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure
>> that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the
>> (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not
>> particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious way.
>> Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this
>> issue in our community.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is that
>> it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse
>> respectively:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get
>> bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop
>> notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets
>> of the community, but not the community as a whole.
>> >> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it
>> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's
>> discourse today?)
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but
>> those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public,
>> archival,
>> >> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments
>> can be
>> >> >>> >> edited or deleted.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells
>> the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great
>> we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross
>> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
>> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use.
>> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a
>> great option for open source development.
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS
>> projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> @Andy
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent
>> traffic it
>> >> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>> >> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak
>> publicly
>> >> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
>> searchable).
>> >> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening
>> between the
>> >> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
>> communication
>> >> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no
>> obvious place
>> >> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
>> >> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of
>> those
>> >> >>> >> >> projects.
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to
>> raise
>> >> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or
>> scipy-user used to
>> >> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have
>> shifted.
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> - Wes
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
>> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the
>> PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder
>> if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller
>> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do
>> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
>> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <
>> njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion
>> include:
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for
>> rust
>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement
>> for
>> >> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but
>> where a ton of
>> >> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
>> adjustment
>> >> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
>> features like
>> >> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>> moderation
>> >> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can
>> retroactively split parts
>> >> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
>> useful for
>> >> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the
>> governance
>> >> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were
>> posted before you
>> >> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>> everything /
>> >> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
>> weekly /
>> >> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> -n
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at
>> least in PyTorch's
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users
>> than a place for
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is
>> probably overdue
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of
>> years
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of
>> coordination does
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc
>> basis. It would
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems
>> and possible
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is
>> the obvious first choice here.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
>> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list
>> that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're
>> doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might
>> have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree
>> that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case
>> than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people
>> could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen
>> with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering
>> these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been
>> expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other
>> than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I
>> believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be
>> considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from
>> "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an
>> e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most
>> activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken
>> off that well.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list
>> would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google
>> groups if others prefer
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den
>> Bossche
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in
>> some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a
>> list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <
>> shoyer at gmail.com:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this
>> today.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived
>> communication channels
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
>> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the
>> existing PyData conferences? I’ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed
>> to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I
>> wondered what you all think
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
>> discussions that involve other
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1
>> degree of separation away
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or
>> something. Is there
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just
>> missed?
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and
>> go to fewer conferences the
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time
>> coding and writing, but I
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people
>> (asynchronously) about things, and
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> Pandas-dev at python.org
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