Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:13:33 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:

> Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion
> piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby
> community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming
> conventions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of
> scrolling to the bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant
> bit:
> 
>> What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in
>> women when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that
>> i found in a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women
>> and other groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into
>> the Rails community:

I'm not part of the Rails community, but I wonder, really, is this 
treating the cause of the problem or just a symptom?

How many Ruby developers find themselves in the situation of actually 
needing to use a package called "bitch" or "retarded"? If you didn't go 
out looking for them, would you even know they exist?

I think that packages with this sort of name do the community a good 
service: they are a very strong signal as to the moral quality, emotional 
immaturity, and intelligence of the package author. The author is perhaps 
to be excused if he *actually is* an obnoxious fourteen-year old boy 
rather than just acting like one. Otherwise, with the very occasional 
exception, packages like the ones named are nearly as good a signal as a 
"Poor Impulse Control" tattoo across the forehead of the author.


[...]
> The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY
> absent from pypi. By and large the published python packages are
> inobjectionable. Well done, "us", in as much as there is an "us" to
> congratulate.

"Unobjectionable".


> There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that
> are, I think, worth discussing:
> 
> * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt
> to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named
> Sue - or girl named Leslie)

I'm curious as to what you consider a bad decision -- the name itself, or 
the very concept of trying to guess gender from names?



[...]
> So, two questions:
> 
> 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way
> of community-tolerated behaviour?

Chances are there is plenty we do that future generations will be 
horrified by, like *wearing yellow*.

http://paulgraham.com/say.html

Some of these things will include our most cherished beliefs.


> Where, if not through the conventions
> for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly
> exclusionary behaviour?

Oh, the assumptions there...

1) "Mindlessly" exclusionary?

2) Who says *we* encourage sexism and racism?



> 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's
> package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when
> some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language?
> How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python
> community?

I really don't like the idea that some package names are thoughtcrime. I 
especially don't like the idea that we need to *preemptively* police the 
community for "bad names" *just in case* some "high-profile dirtbag" 
decides to call her software "boobies" or something.


> 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past
> the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better
> next time?

Heh, I'm inclined to say "better them than us" and be grateful that the 
snotty-nosed emotionally-stunted yahoos are over there rather than over 
here, but that would be selfish, wouldn't it?

Oh well. There's only so much I can do at once. I've got bigger troubles 
than trying to solve Ruby's problems with yahoos, and frankly, if I were 
a Ruby community member, I wouldn't exactly be pleased to have a bunch of 
strangers from another community come over to tell me all the things I'm 
doing wrong.

Speaking of which, while you're welcome here of course, I see you aren't 
exactly a regular poster. How well do you know this community?


> I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social
> consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think
> Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is
> misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call
> towards Pypi to drop "unacceptable" library names is a good idea either.
> However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we
> welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our
> best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who
> or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires
> ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance.
> 
> So, how should we be more awesome?

We should give out free cookies! Everybody loves cookies, right?

What *actual* problem are we trying to solve, right here? Is it ...

- The Python community is a hot-bed for so-called "Men's Rights", a 
reactionary group of old-fashioned chauvinists?

- Or perhaps childish, obnoxious "lads" who are trying to exclude women 
and minorities?

- The Python community is insufficiently aware of the difficulties that 
minorities and women are under?

- Regardless of how friendly and welcoming we are, the wider societies we 
come from are unacceptably sexist?

- The evolution of Homo sapiens has lead to us behaving more like 
violent, hierarchical, male-dominated chimpanzees rather than 
promiscuous, egalitarian, female-dominated bonobos?

- All of the above?

- Something else?


I'm not sure which problem(s) you think needs to be solved.



-- 
Steven