GUIs - A Modest Proposal

[Mark Lawrence]

On 09/06/2010 00:58, rantingrick wrote:
> On Jun 8, 5:40 pm, geremy condra<debat... at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Lie Ryan<lie.1... at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> On 06/09/10 01:17, bart.c wrote:
>>
>>>> "Grant Edwards"<inva... at invalid.invalid>  wrote in message
>>>> news:hullf3$hl4$1 at reader1.panix.com...
>>>>> On 2010-06-08, Kevin Walzer<k... at codebykevin.com>  wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Since Tk already provides a basic GUI toolset, and Python can interface
>>>>>> with it more directly than it can with other toolkits
>>>>>> (PyGui ->  PyGtk ->  Gtk ->  Xlib),
>>
>>>>> Compare that to this:
>>
>>>>> TkInter ->  Tcl ->  Tk ->  Xlib
>>
>>>> Is the Tcl intepreter really need to use this GUI? Why not:
>>
>>>> (Pyton ->) Tkinter-API ->  Xlib ?
>>
>>>> Most of the work of designing a GUI is, well, designing it. That's
>>>> already been done for Tkinter so why not just implement the same spec in
>>>> Python (with whatever lower-level code is needed). Then extending it
>>>> should be simpler.
>>
>>>>>> it's not clear to me what is gained by starting from scratch here.
>>>>>> (Is it the presence of the Tcl interpreter? I know Tcl is not to
>>>>>> everyone's taste, but it is an amazing language...)
>>
>>>> Some people aren't interested in the amazing language. Only the graphics
>>>> API that goes with it.
>>
>>> How about shifting the viewpoint a little bit. Tcl is like regular
>>> expression engine and the Tk is like the re API.
>>
>>> Much like regex a DSL for matching text, Tcl/Tk is pretty much a DSL for
>>> creating GUI (anyone knows any real program fully written in
>>> non-embedded Tcl?).
>>
>>> Nobody complains that python included a regular expression engine in its
>>> standard distribution; so why complain that python included a Tcl
>>> expression engine in its standard distribution.
>>
>> This is a silly argument.
>>
>> REs are not full programming languages, even from a theoretical point
>> of view, aMSN is written in Tcl, as wikipedia would have told you, and
>> having to depend on the tools of another language to get commonly
>> desired functionality is not a good thing for a programming language.
>>
>> Geremy Condra
>
> It's just more cannon fodder to distract attention from and obfuscate
> the real problem. It blows my mind... The same people who would fight
> to the death to protect Tkinter's existence in the stdlib never use
> the library anyway and personally hate it! Does this make any sense to
> anyone with normal brain function? Not to me. It perplexes me to no
> end! Why do you protect that which you hate? But the even better
> question is why do you also fight against any attempt to make it
> better? hmm...? Talk about ironic!
>
> We have a problem and we need some good community discussion to bring
> about a solution. If all you have to say is...
>
>   """I don't use Tkinter so i don't care!""""
> or
>   """I don't even use GUI's so i don't give a flying fig!"""
> or
>   """I can't get the GUI i want so screw all of you and the GUI you're
> pushing!"""
> or
>   """I'm just trolling for the sake of trolling because i like to read
> my own press"""
>
> ... well just keep your negativity to yourself. When you have real
> solutions or real ideas that could foster real solutions then for
> Pete's sake bring them forth and let them be weighed in the balances
> of truth. But i can tell you right now, everyone will have to
> sacrifice something to get the perfect GUI for Python. Yes you heard
> me correctly, the perfect GUI for Python! Not the perfect GUI for you,
> me, or even xah lee!
>
> There is a bright side, this is the best discussion i have witnessed
> on this subject in two years (Probably due to fact that i did not
> instigate the discussion). So the question is what should we do and
> how should we do it?
>
>   - We can fix Tkinter by making it lean and mean.
>   - We can start fresh and really create something very Pythonic.
>   - We can do nothing and sit around for another two years complaining
> like premenstrual Prima donna's.
>
> So keep the ideas rolling in people. We need to hear from every side
> of this forum.

Please be so kind as to stop using the term we when you (singular) mean 
you (singular).  Frankly I wouldn't consider writing a single line of 
code along these lines as it's a complete non starter.  My preference is 
for the good old command line, mainly because research I read, 
admittedly years ago, stated that using said beast was far more 
efficient for experienced users than a GUI.  If more recent research 
suggests that this has changed then great, I'll just sit back and wait 
until you (singular) write the code to provide the perfect GUI for 
Python.  I look forward to seeing the 0.01 release on 31/12/2015, if I'm 
lucky.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.

p.s. as Stephen D'Aprano asked r u r?