pygame and python 2.5

[mensanator at aol.com]

On Feb 11, 4:24 am, Steve Holden <s... at holdenweb.com> wrote:
> mensana... at aol.com wrote:
> > On Feb 11, 1:35?am, Steve Holden <s... at holdenweb.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >>>> After all, they have already given freely and generously, and if they choose
> >>>> not to give more on top of that, it's really up to them.
> >>> Right. Get people to commit and then abandon them. Nice.
> >> Anyone who committed to Python did so without being battered by a
> >> multi-million dollar advertising campaign.
>
> > Multi-million dollar ad campaigns mean nothing to me.
> > I committed to Python because it's a great language.
> > I've dabbled in perl, Visual BASIC, UBASIC, REXX, Java,
> > Scheme, C and C++ but Python is the one I use.
>
> Yes, but your decision must surely have been an informed one, and there
> must surely be reasons why Python remains your choice.
>
>
>
>
>
> >> The Python Software
> >> Foundation has only recently dipped its toes in the advocacy waters,
> >> with results that are still under evaluation. And the use of the
> >> Microsoft "free" VC6 SDK was never a part of the "official" means of
> >> producing Python or its extensions, it was a community-developed
> >> solution to the lack of availability of a free VS-compatible compilation
> >> system for extension modules.
>
> >> I agree that there are frustrations involved with maintaining extension
> >> modules on the Windows platform without having a copy of Visual Studio
> >> (of the correct version) available. One of the reasons Python still uses
> >> an outdated version of VS is to avoid forcing people to upgrade. Any
> >> such decision will have fallout.
>
> > Such as anyone who tries to get in the game late.
>
> I'm afraid it does seem to work out like that, yes.
>
> >> An update is in the works for those
> >> using more recent releases,
>
> > That's good news, although the responsible thing
> > to do was not relaease version 2.5 until such issues
> > are resolved.
>
> Well that would be an issue for the release team. I'm not sure what
> Anthony Baxter (the release manager) would have to say in response to
> this point.

Possibly something like:

"I realize you're a Windows user, and a Windows user with
an AOL email address at that, so it may come as a shock
to learn that the computer industry doesn't start and
finish on Windows. I don't see why the needs of Windows
users like yourself should come ahead of the needs of
users on Mac OS, Linux, Solaris, etc." - Steven D'Arpano

I would hope that it would instead be that the needs of
all users are equal.

>
> >> but that won't help users who don't have
> >> access to Visual Studio.
>
> > That can be solved by throwing money at the problem.
> > But money doesn't help when the solution is on the
> > far side of the moon.
>
> I see your problem, but I don't know what I can do to help you.

Well, that was the point of this, to get people to
see the problem.

> There
> were also, as I remember it, issues with the updated version of Visual
> Studio being non-conformant with standards in some significant way, but
> I never took part in the discussions on those issues.
>
> >>>> Yes, it's
> >>>> occasionally very frustrating to the rest of us, but that's life.
> >>> As the Kurds are well aware.
> >> I really don't think you help your argument by trying to draw parallels
> >> between the problems of compiler non-availability and those of a
> >> population subject to random genocide.
>
> > You missed the point of the analogy.
>
> Perhaps because it wasn't a very good one?
>
>
>
>
>
> > The US government suggested to the oppressed tribes
> > in Iraq that they should rise up and overthrow
> > Saddam Hussein at the end of the first Gulf War.
> > And what did the US government do when they rose up?
> > Nothing. They were left to twist in the wind.
>
> >> Try to keep things in perspective, please.
>
> > See if you can see the similarity.
>
> > I buy into Python. I spend a lot of effort
> > developing a math library based on GMPY to use
> > in my research. I discover a bug in GMPY and
> > actually go to a lot of effort and solve it.
> > But _I_ can't even use it because I've been
> > left to twist in the wind by the fact that
> > Python 2.5 for Windows was built with an
> > obsolete compiler that's not even available.
>
> > Luckily, unlike the Kurds, my situation had
> > a happy ending, someone else compiled the fixed
> > GMPY source and made a 2.5 Windows version
> > available. But can anyone say what will happen
> > the next time?
>
> Presumably not. I presume you have been reporting your bugs through the
> Sourceforge project to keep the developers in touch with the issues you
> have found?

Last time I tried, it didn't work and e-mail to the
maintainer didn't get any response.

> Normally a package's maintainers will produce updated
> installers,

Unless they have stopped doing Windows developement as
part of their job as is the case with GMPY. Luckily,
there's someone out there who does create Windows
binaries.

> but this behaviour is unreliable and (no pun intended)
> patchy sometimes.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>> The best I feel I can do is raise these things on occasion,
> >>>> on the off-chance that I manage to catch the attention of
> >>>> someone who is
> >>>> altruistic, knowledgeable, and who has some spare time on
> >>>> their hands!
> >>> Someone who, say, solved the memory leak in the GMPY
> >>> divm() function even though he had no way of compiling
> >>> the source code?
> >>> Just think of what such an altruistic, knowedgeable
> >>> person could do if he could use the current VC compiler
> >>> or some other legally available compiler.
> >> Your efforts would probably be far better spent trying to build a
> >> back-end for mingw or some similar system into Python's development
> >> system, to allow Python for Windows to be built on a regular rather than
> >> a one-off basis using a completely open source tool chain.
>
> > No, as I said elsewhere, I'm not a software developer,
> > I'm an amateur math researcher. My efforts are best spent
> > as an actual end user to find and report bugs that the
> > developers never see. Remember, a programmer, because he
> > wrote it, only _thinks_ he knows how the program works.
> > Whereas I, the user, _know_ how it works.
>
> >> The fact that the current maintainers of the Windows side of Python
> >> choose to use a commercial tool to help them isn't something I am going
> >> to try and second-guess. To do so would be to belittle efforts I would
> >> have no way of duplicating myself, and I have far too much respect for
> >> those efforts to do so.
>
> > And I respect those efforts too. What I don't respect
> > is irresponsible behaviour.
>
> >> There are published ways to build extension modules for Windows using
> >> mingw, by the way - have you tried any of them?
>
> > Yeah, and got nowhere.
>
> >> It's much harder than sniping on a newsgroup,
>
> > That figures. You try and contribute and you get
> > accused of being a troll.
>
> I wasn't accusing you of being a troll, rather bemoaning your (in my
> opinion) less-than-constructive tone.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

> The points you raise are
> important, and I do feel that there ought to be easier solutions for
> people in your position.

That's all I'm asking for is for others to appreciate
the situation.

>
> >> but you earn rather more kudos.
>
> > Guess what kudos I got for solving the GMPY divm()
> > problem? None. How much effort would it have been
> > to mention my contribution in the source code
> > comments (as was the case for other contributers)?
> > Not that I'm bitter, after all, I'm altruistic.
>
> I'm sure if you've made a contribution to the code you only have to ask
> for your name to be added as a contributor to be mentioned in the source.

That wasn't important, I'm not that petty.
It was simply a real-world example.

>
> > By the way, on the sci.math newsgroup I promote
> > Python every chance I get. One fellow thanked me
> > profusely for recommending Python & GMPY and asked
> > for some help with a program he was having problems
> > with. We worked it out fine but his problem made me
> > suspect there may be more bugs in GMPY. What's my
> > motivation for tracking them down?
>
> The satisfaction of a job well done? What's my motivation for acting as
> a director of the Python Software Foundation when I get accusations of
> irresponsibility?

I apologize. But I hope you see how this appears from
the outside, that the PSF doesn't give a rat's ass about
Windows users with AOL addresses. Sure, that's wrong,
but calling people who bring up these points whiny leeches
doesn't do anything to dispell that notion.

> Anyway, thanks for taking the time to help maintain gmpy.

Thanks, I try to help as much as I can. I'm a little
sensitive about gmpy because without it, I would have
to abandon Python and I don't want to abandon Python.

>
> This thread is starting to make me think that there's a case to be made
> for somehow providing supported build facilities for third-party
> extension modules.

And the untouchables would greatly appreciate it.

>
> This wouldn't be a simple project, but since there's a Windows buildbot
> for Python there's no reason why the same couldn't be done for
> extensions. I'll raise this with the PSF and see what the response is:
> then your carping will at least have had some positive effect ;-)
>
> Stick with it, and let's try to make things better.

Ok.

>
> regards
>   Steve
> --
> Steve Holden       +44 150 684 7255  +1 800 494 3119
> Holden Web LLC/Ltd          http://www.holdenweb.com
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