Ron Grossi: God is not a man

[Larry Bates]

You are mistaken.  Your long discourse is an exercise in
reaching a conclusion and then trying your best to take
scripture out of context to support your conclusion.
As humans we will never fully understand the Trinity in
this lifetime.  That God the Father, God the Son and
God the Holy Spirit are somehow a single being.  It
is much like humans.  We are physical, emotional and
spiritual beings ourselves.

I would refer you to the works of C. S. Lewis and Josh
McDowell that at one time believed as you believe,
but when they honestly did their research came to the
obvious correct conclusion that Jesus was in fact
wholly God and wholly Man.  If you honestly want to
know the answer to this question you should do some
additional research with these authors.  They were
skeptics just like you and spent countless hours
researching this material (even in the original texts)
and came to a conclusion that is vastly different from
yours.

Christianity is a difficult religion.  It states very
matter-of-factly that there is only one way to God,
THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.  As humans we don't like this type
of absolute and will struggle against it (as it seems
you are).  It seems inconceivable that all the other
religions could have it wrong.  If we took a vote we
might have done it differently, but then we're not God.
All religions have a vested interest in keeping their
flock.  Even if other religions knew for a fact that
Christ was the incarnate Son of God was crucified for
our sins and was the only way for us to spend eternity
in heaven do you think they would all convert and
begin following Christ?  Not likely.  There is too
much power and money at stake to make that change and
too many religious leaders would lose control and
power that they now posses.

The death and resurrection of Christ is the dividing
line among men.  Either you believe it or you don't.
You can't just ignore it.  If Christ is who he said he
(and others) say he was, then He is "the way".  If not,
he is some poor carpenter with delusions of God-hood
that can be ignored.  Since eternity hangs in the
balance, I pray that you will not make your decision
without making absolutely sure.

Regards,

Larry Bates

Obaid R. wrote:
> SUMMARY
> =======
> 
> For the past few weeks, a self-professed
> internet evangelist has posted several times
> to several news groups to claim several
> points as facts. It would appear that these
> assertions do not stand up to close
> examination, logic and reason, and stand in
> direct contradiction to the explicit text
> attributed to Almighty God as found in the
> Bible.
> 
> 
> GOD IS NOT A MAN
> ================
> 
> Mr. Ron Grossi's claim that "God tells us in
> the Bible" that in order to get to heaven
> people need to believe "Christ is Lord" or
> "Christ as Lord" or "Christ Lord" depending
> on the version of the Bible you have, and
> that furthermore, people also need to believe
> that "God raised Him from the dead" is
> typical of the issues we face with his post.
> 
> First of all, it is not Almighty God that is
> telling us these things. It is non other than
> (St.) Paul, whom most Christian scholars
> believe never to have met Christ, peace and
> blessing of Almighty God be upon him (PBBUH)
> in the flesh while he lived on this earth,
> that is allegedly doing the telling, writing
> in the book of Romans, not Almighty God.
> 
> And who is Paul, does anyone know? The reader
> is advised to read from the Bible from the
> book of Acts:
> 
> "But when Paul perceived that the one part
> were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he
> cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I
> am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the
> hope and resurrection of the dead I am called
> in question." (Acts 23: 6)
> 
> 
> And what did Christ PBBUH himself say
> concerning those?
> 
> "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and
> beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of
> the Sadducees." (Matthew 16: 6)
> 
> 
> And so it appears that Mr. Grossi is
> attributing the alleged words of Paul, whom
> if we are to believe in the Bible, we now
> know who he is and what we should do about
> his leaven, to Almighty God!
> 
> Secondly, the words of Paul and the post of
> Mr. Grossi imply that "Christ is Lord" is equal
> to "Christ is LORD", i.e. that to get to
> heaven people need to believe that Christ is
> Almighty God Himself; but this contradicts
> "the word of God" as found in the Bible, and
> even the words attributed to Christ PBBUH
> himself in the first person as found in the
> New Testament. Please bear with me.
> 
> It is in the Bible that we read Christ PBBUH
> repeatedly described as "a man" (Acts
> 2: 22) and we even read words attributed to
> him in the first person testifying that he is
> "the son of man" (Luke 9: 58). And it is in
> the same Bible that we read it proclaimed
> time after time that "God is not a man ...
> neither the son of man" (Numbers 23: 19).
> 
> And so unless one wishes to dispute what the
> meaning of the word "is" is, then the Numbers
> verse mean what it says: Christ PBBUH was not
> God, is not God, and never will be God.
> Period. After all "God is not a man"
> (Numbers 23: 19) from the beginning of time,
> during the time Christ PBBUH walked this
> earth, and until the end of time.
> 
> Now if Paul meant "Lord" as meaning
> "nobleman", "person in position of
> authority", or "title prefixed to named of
> peers and barons" (all quoted from the A.L.
> Dictionary of Current English), then
> referring to Christ PBBUH as such would have
> been fair.
> 
> It is so because with the English translation
> of the Bible originating from an environment
> where "Lords" abound, it would be a fair
> practice to attribute the word "Lord" in its
> earthly connotations to Christ PBBUH.
> Needless to say that as a messenger and
> prophet of Almighty God, Christ PBBUH does
> indeed deserve that title, especially with
> divine authority to back him up.
> 
> Perhaps it is worth mentioning that Abraham,
> Jacob, and many other prophets, peace and
> blessings of Almighty God be upon them
> (PBBUT), were also referred to as lords. (See
> Genesis 18: 12, and Genesis 32: 4).
> 
> Implying, however, like Mr. Grossi and others
> of like mind do, that "Lord" actually means
> "LORD", then we should refer them back to
> (Numbers 23: 19) I guess. After all, it is
> either Almighty God is telling the truth, or
> they are. There is exclusivity here. God is
> either a man, or He is not a man. And I don't
> know about you, but I prefer to believe
> Almighty God over anyone else.
> 
> Thirdly, In all the versions of the Bible I
> have I cannot find one rendering which reads
> like Mr. Grossi's quote.
> 
> Mr. Grossi's:
> "... and believe in your heart that God
> raised Him from the dead, you WILL
> BE SAVED."
> 
> 
> KJV:
> "... and shalt believe in thine heart that
> God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt
> be saved." (Romans 10: 9)
> 
> 
> RSV:
> "... and believe in your heart that God raised
> him from the dead, you will be saved."
> (Romans 10: 9)
> 
> 
> ASV:
> ".. and shalt believe in thy heart that God
> raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
> saved:" (Romans 10: 9)
> 
> 
> YLT:
> "... and mayest believe in thy heart that God did
> raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be
> saved," (Romans 10: 9)
> 
> 
> Note that in all versions of the Bible quoted
> from that Mr. Grossi's "God raised Him" is
> rendered (more or less) "God raised him." The
> word "him," referring to Christ PBBUH, is in
> lower case. This shows that this Biblical
> text, even when attributed to Paul, seems
> still in keeping with the spirit of Numbers
> 23: 19, namely that "God is not a man ...
> neither the son of a man" to deserve a
> capitalized LORD, so to speak. That Mr.
> Grossi or people of like mind are miss-
> quoting here and then implying an anti-truth
> does not make this miss-quote divine truth by
> their merely repeating it.
> 
> Also do note that it reads "God raised him."
> In other words, the raising is attributed
> here to Almighty God, while the object of the
> raising is meant to be Christ PBBUH. And
> the fact that "him" was used instead of
> "Himself" effectively rules out (also in
> keeping with the spirit of the word of God as
> found in the Bible that God is not a man)
> that Christ PBBUH was ever God.
> 
> 
> GOD WILL NOT DWELL ON THE EARTH
> ===============================
> 
> Mr. Grossi then proceeds to claim that:
> 
> "Over 2000 years ago God came from Heaven
> to earth in the person of Jesus Christ to
> shed His blood and die on a cross to pay
> our sin debt in full."
> 
> 
> It does not take much to note that this is
> a claim yet to be backed up with supporting
> evidence. As a matter of fact and after
> reading from 1 Kings (see below) one would be
> quick to conclude that this claim is yet
> again made in direct contradiction to the
> "word of God" as found in the Bible.
> 
> "But will God indeed dwell on the earth?
> behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens
> cannot contain thee; how much less this house
> that I have builded?" (1 Kings 8: 27)
> 
> 
> So, it is according to the Bible of all books
> that not only "God is not a man ... neither
> the son of man," but also that "God will not
> dwell on the earth." Why? Not that we need to
> know why, but apparently because "the heaven
> and heaven of heavens cannot contain God."
> Note that these are not my words. These are
> verbatim words quoted from the Bible.
> 
> 
> CHRIST WAS NOT CRUCIFIED
> ========================
> 
> It comes as no surprise to me that when Mr.
> Grossi miss-quotes from the Bible and resorts to
> quoting the very people Christ PBBUH warned
> against) to attribute certain words to
> Almighty God that he will arrive at the exact
> opposite of what he intended for.
> 
> The holy book of the Muslims is explicitly
> clear on the idea of the alleged crucifixion of
> Christ PBBUH, and that of the original sin.
> Muslims are told that to believe that we (as
> humans) are to be held accountable for our
> fathers' sins is to imply that Almighty
> God, may He be glorified above all of this,
> is an imperfect unjust God. That for us (as
> humans) to believe that Almighty God requires
> the death of an innocent man (in the person
> of Christ PBBUH) to die for the mistakes of
> anyone also implies that Almighty God, may He
> be glorified above all of this, is an
> imperfect unjust God.
> 
> But since Almighty God is PERFECT in every
> way: power, knowledge, mercy, justice, etc.,
> then to believe in the message of Grossi here
> is to attach an imperfection to Almighty
> God, and is to belittle Almighty God's
> supreme qualities and Majestic Being. In fact
> the Qur'an argues that people who do that
> (i.e., believe that God will blame us for the
> mistakes of others, or that He requires the
> blood of an innocent man for the forgiving of
> the sins of the guilty) are not actually
> worshiping the one true God. Yes Almighty
> God created everyone, but you see, He has
> none of these qualities that people like
> Grossi here attribute to the "God" they
> worship. Hence they are worshiping somebody
> or something other than the true Almighty
> perfect God.
> 
> It is in this light (in spite of the repeated
> messages of anyone) that it becomes revealing
> if the Qur'anic claim that Christ PBBUH was
> not crucified is actually verified in the
> Gospels.
> 
> If we quote from the Qur'an for a change, we
> read Almighty God asserting the following
> while speaking of those who boast that they
> killed the Messiah of God:
> 
> "That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ
> Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of
> Allah";- but they killed him not, nor
> crucified him, but so it was made to appear
> to them, and those who differ therein are
> full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge,
> but only conjecture to follow, for of a
> surety they killed him not:-"
> (Translation, Qur'an, 4: 157)
> 
> 
> This is an amazingly bold statement. One that
> could have come only from one who knows the
> facts. So let's study this matter in the
> Bible.
> 
> 
> COMMON GROUND
> =============
> 
> 
> If we are to examine whether Christ PBBUH was
> crucified or not, we need to agree on common
> ground and define (or underline the meaning
> of) some words. One would have to study what
> "crucified" and "resurrected" mean, and then
> see whether after his alleged crucifixion and
> resurrection, Christ's nature PBBUH agrees with
> these definitions.
> 
> 
> WHAT DOES CRUCIFY MEAN?
> -----------------------
> 
> According to the English language crucify
> means "to cause death by hanging or impaling
> on the cross." Note that death has to occur
> on the cross for the act of crucifixion to be
> considered to have taken place.
> 
> Many people in the Philippines stage mock
> "crucifixions" around the time of "Good Friday"
> to mark the alleged sacrifice of Christ PBBUH.
> But the mere fact, however, that these people
> are brought down alive from the crosses
> automatically nullifies the notion that
> actual crucifixions did take place.
> 
> After all, if one is brought down from the
> cross and he walks around smoking cigarettes
> then he was not technically speaking
> crucified. Yes, he was put up on the cross,
> but since that did not cause death then
> (according to the universally agreed norms of
> language and reason) one cannot say that the
> said man was crucified and be telling the truth.
> 
> The deficiency is in the English language
> which cannot differentiate between putting
> some one up on the cross and having that
> person die on the cross because of being put
> on it. In fact it is for this reason that
> some scholars (Ahmed Deedat of South Africa)
> have suggested the introduction of the word
> "cruci-ficion", i.e. made-believe
> crucifixion, as in a work of fiction, into the
> English language.
> 
> 
> WHAT DOES RESURRECTED MEAN?
> ---------------------------
> 
> Having known what crucifixion means (as
> opposed to cruci-ficion) let's move on to
> study the word "resurrected."
> 
> Amazingly enough, it is in the Bible the one
> finds Christ PBBUH himself in the first
> person defining the resurrected as follows:
> "... neither can they die any more for they
> are equal unto the angles ..." (Luke 20: 36) whom
> the Bible explains are "spirits" (Psalms 104:
> 4), a definition confirmed by Paul who explains
> that the resurrected have a "spiritual body"
> (1 Corinthians: 15: 44).
> 
> Now having known from the Bible (of all books)
> that the resurrected are spirits, ghosts, or
> spooks, and that to be crucified one would
> have to die on the cross, let's study the
> state of Christ PBBUH after his alleged
> crucifixion and resurrection to see if he
> fits the definitions of these words.
> 
> 
> THEY FORSOOK HIM AND FLED
> =========================
> 
> 
> In the Bible, you will read that at the most
> crucial juncture of the life of Jesus *all* his
> disciples forsook him and fled. All of them.
> Read from (Mark 14: 50): "And they all forsook him,
> and fled."
> 
> So the Bible reports Jesus is hanged on the
> cross; this is what people were talking
> about. This is what the disciples had heard
> from hearsay, because they had "ALL FORSOOK
> HIM AND FLED." (Mark 14: 50) (Emphasis added).
> Likewise, they had heard from hearsay that
> Christ PBBUH had given up the ghost on the
> cross. This is what people were talking
> about. This is what the absent disciples
> assumed then to be the sad end to their Rabbi.
> 
> Proof of that is evident in their terror when
> Christ PBBUH goes to the upper room after his
> alleged crucifixion and resurrection, when he
> says to them: "Peace be unto you." (Luke
> 24: 36). [This is the official Muslim greeting
> by the way].
> 
> Instead of going to kiss and hug their Rabbi,
> "they were terrified and affrighted, and
> supposed that they had seen a spirit." (Luke
> 24: 37).
> 
> Why were they terrified? They were so because
> they thought they had seen a *spirit*. After
> all they had heard (as opposed to witnessed)
> that Christ PBBUH had given up the ghost on the
> cross.
> 
> But did they? Did they see a spirit?
> 
> 
> A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES
> =================================
> 
> 
> Speaking after his alleged crucifixion
> and resurrection (when he ought to have been
> a spirit), Christ PBBUH is reported as saying:
> 
> "And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled?
> and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
> Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I
> myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath
> not FLESH and BONES, as ye SEE me HAVE."
> (Luke 24:38-39) (Emphasis is mine)
> 
> 
> Christ PBBUH is emphatic about it: Christ
> PBBUH says he was no spirit. Christ PBBUH
> says he is still alive. And alive does not
> equal resurrected. Must we remind ourselves
> that a resurrected entity in Christ's own words
> is "equal unto the angels." (Luke 20:36),
> i.e., spirit, spook, ghost?
> 
> 
> PLEASE TELL THEM
> ================
> 
> 
> And so here we must ask Mr. Grossi to please
> tell the truth seeker, that according to your own
> scriptures that the resurrected are not
> spirits, when your own Bible says they are
> so. Tell them that (St.) Paul didn't define
> the resurrected as having "spiritual bodies,"
> (1 Corinthians: 15: 44), when he did so. Tell
> them that Christ did not define the
> resurrected as "equal unto the angles," (Luke
> 20: 36), when he preached so. Tell them that
> your own scriptures does not say that the
> angels are spirits, (Psalms 104: 4) when it
> does so. Tell them that a spirit has flesh
> and bones, when Christ himself says it is not
> so. Tell them that Christ was not of flesh
> and bones after he allegedly died for our
> sins, when he himself says he was so. Please
> tell them.
> 
> Please tell them how when asked in four
> different places in the Bible "how can I
> inherit eternal life?" that instead of
> repeating his unchanging answer: your
> salvation is in the law, keep the
> commandments (See Mark 10:17-19, Luke 18:18-
> 20, Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:16-19),
> that Christ PBBUH says "believe that I am God
> incarnate and you shall be saved" when he
> never did so. Tell them that he answers
> "believe I am part of a trinity and you shall
> be saved" when he never preached so. Tell
> them that he proclaims "wait until I am
> crucified and then accept my sacrifice after
> I am resurrected and you shall be saved" when
> he never once said so. Not once. Please tell
> them.
> 
> 
> WHAT IS INIQUITY?
> =================
> 
> 
> Iniquity is injustice. This act takes place
> when one is entrusted to judge in a matter
> and he/she takes the right of someone and
> gives to another without proof and rightfull
> claim and in spite of the same.
> 
> Can you guess what is the highest form of
> iniquity? It is the taking of the right to
> deity (which is rightfully and uniquely
> Almighty God's) and giving it to those who
> don't deserve it, to those who never claimed it,
> and to those who even denied it.
> 
> 
> Almighty God says, warning us:
> 
> "And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh,
> sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter,
> salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat
> and derive the ornament that ye wear. And
> thou seest the ship cleaving them with its
> prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that
> haply ye may give thanks.
> 
> "He maketh the night to pass into the day and
> He maketh the day to pass into the night. He
> hath subdued the sun and moon to service.
> Each runneth unto an appointed term. Such is
> Allah, your Lord; His is the Sovereignty; and
> those unto whom ye pray instead of Him own
> not so much as the white spot on a date-
> stone.
> 
> "If ye pray unto them they hear not your
> prayer, and if they heard they could not
> grant it you. On the Day of Resurrection they
> will disown association with you. None can
> inform you like Him Who is Aware.
> 
> "O mankind! Ye are the poor in your relation
> to Allah. And Allah! He is the Absolute, the
> Owner of Praise.
> 
> "If He will, He can be rid of you and bring
> (instead of you) some new creation. That is
> not a hard thing for Allah."
> (Translation, Glorious Qur'an, 35: 12-17)
> 
> 
> 
> As foretold by Almighty God in the Qur'anic
> verse 15 shown above, Christ's PBBUH
> Judgement's Day words to those who work
> iniquity is amazingly confirmed in the Bible:
> 
> "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,
> have we not prophesied in thy name? and in
> thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
> name done many wonderful works?
> 
> "And then will I profess unto them, I
> never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
> iniquity." (Matthew 7: 22-23)
>