Newsgroup mood [was] why python is slower than java?

[Brian van den Broek]

Alex Martelli said unto the world upon 2004-11-06 02:12:
> Hans Nowak <hans at zephyrfalcon.org> wrote:

<SNIP>

>>
>>Is it just me, or is the climate in c.l.py getting less friendly to 
>>newbies?  In any case, 
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, I sort of share your perception -- and I have
> noticed the same thing, and seen it remarked upon by others, in other,
> completely unrelated newsgroups as well, such as it.comp.macintosh.
> 
> It's not, I think, about newbies in general: people who come and post
> help requests, without giving the information that's quite obviously
> indispensabile to let us help them, keep getting treated with
> unreasonable amounts of friendliness and courtesy even after many
> requests for more info go unheeded, for example.
> 
> However, newbies who are clueless enough to come blasting in with the
> usual whines we've heard a zillion times -- Macs cost too much, Python
> is too slow, there's no apps for Macs, Python must absolutely add
> feature X or it will die, Apple's gonna go broke tomorrow, etc, etc --
> do appear to get on our collective nerves worse than their essentially
> indistinguishable precursors did last year, two years ago, &c.
> 
> The accusation of being a troll often follows, breaking the old advice
> to "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by
> incompetence".  Maybe it's a case of the corollary to that old advice,
> "Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice".
> But why that should be so this year more than last year, say, is not
> clear to me...
> 
> 
> Alex

Hi all,

I should say up front that I'm a relative newcomer to technical
newsgroups and mail-lists myself, so these comments aren't backed-up by
years of observation. I'd also like to make clear that I am responding
with general observations to what I took to be general observations in
the quoted msgs above; I don't think any of Alex, Hans, or I intend to
be talking about any one post or poster. Last, having just finished
writing this email, I see it got a bit long. There is a concrete
proposal at the end, so I invite those who feel its a ramble to skip
down 5 or so paragraphs.

The thread has offered donor fatigue and old-hands drifting away as 
partial explanations, but I'd say any decline in newbie-friendliness 
must be at least partly explained by success. Many in the Python 
community seem to share the laudable goal of spreading Python, and not 
just to the already technically informed. From Guido's Computing For 
Everybody project, to the ever-patient folks on the tutor list, to any 
number of other manifestations one could point to, the Python community 
seems to have a "Welcome. You don't have to know what a dip-switch is to 
enter here" sign up. That's a good thing. But, if it works (and it 
does--witness this post ;-), it brings in people who don't know the 
social norms.

That community attitude doesn't necessarily explain the Mac list Alex
cites. (I've not read the list, so cannot say.) But there too, there
must be an upsurge of new folk who finally got tired of doing what Bill
told them to do. (Among my circle, about 1 frustrated Windows user
every month or two switches to Macs.) So, it both cases, it is likely to
be driven by continued expansion of the membership outside the bounds of
those who know what elm and pine are.

Python might also be vulnerable to a strange, paradoxical phenomena: it
a way, it seems the more people get for less ($ or effort) the more they
expect. I'm on a list for 2 shareware products, a few freeware (beer
sense) ones, and a few open-source. People do seem to demand more of
list membership and project owners the more free the project is. That
one puzzles me, but I guess helps explain why the non-free,
non-responsive Redmond machine still is widely accepted.

Of all the lists (tech and non) I have read, the Python lists are among
the most tolerant and welcoming. It certainly took me a few tries to
get reasonably close to appropriate form. But, not once was I flamed or 
more than gently nudged in the right direction. This friendliness is 
important, to be valued, and I think protected. (I recall a post I made 
to a LUG asking for help with an aborted attempt to get Linux and my 
laptop's Winmodem to co-operate. I was flamed because my mail headers 
indicated that I was using Thunderbird on *Windows* -- the horror! -- 
Not the way to welcome people to the world of Linux.)

But, if Python's increase in user-base continues, on these issues onward
and downward seems all too possible.

So, what to do? Well, I've just subscribed to the list on another
address to check, and there is nothing in the welcome message giving
people new to newsgroups and mail-lists a "Newbie's Introduction to the
Medium". Nor is there a recap posted in the monthly subscription reminder.

I'm not a fan of 'Official List Rules' full of "Thou shalt"s and that's 
not what I am suggesting. I am also aware that many of the people whose 
post exasperate are also the people least likely to read or attend to 
such introductions. But, still, something along the lines might help.

What I have in mind is a wiki-page or three with links prominently
located in the welcome message and the reminder message. I could see at
least three distinct pages being of use. In rapid-sketch mode:

1) Welcome to the list, here are our norms
At minimum, a short 1-2 paragraph distillation of "Smart Questions", a 
link to it, a reminder of the existence of the tutor list, and links to 
the other two here mentioned.

2) How to find information about Python
Links to one or more of the comp.lang.python archives with perhaps some
advice for optimal searching. This could include a link to a quick "How
to google".
Perhaps a link to Mark Hammond's wicked-cool Python Sidebar for 
Firefox/Mozilla <http://starship.python.net/crew/mhammond/mozilla/> and 
to any other similar aids.

3) Links to threads that answer common questions
Yes, there is an FAQ and yet people still ask why Python gets division
wrong. But I've often seen people dig up links to threads for questions
perhaps not so common to be written up in an FAQ, but perhaps common
enough to merit linking on a wiki page. I'm not under the illusion that 
it would solve the problem on its own, but it might well head some 
repeat questions off. For those it doesn't, it would give an easy way to 
answer.

Yes, some (or even all) of this info is already on Python.org. But this
way would allow it to be audience-tailored and to be ultra-easy to
direct newbie's toward. And yes, not all newbies read Eric Raymond's 
"Smart Questions" essay within the first 5 times they are pointed at it. 
Clearly it won't be a silver bullet, but maybe it would help.

As a relative newbie myself, I think I might make a better person to
start off (1) and (2) than some of the old-hands who are further away
from the newbie mindset. And, on the "talk not followed by effort is
chatter" principle, I surely ought volunteer, too ;-) I'm happy to do
so, provided 1) it doesn't strike people as a silly or hopelessly naive
idea, 2) I'm not committed to providing a proof of concept within the
next week :-) , and 3) I can count on other's to do the wiki thing to my 
starting effort.

So, if anyone's still reading, thanks. I'm curious to see if the
suggestion seems worthwhile. Best to all,

Brian vdB