Brandon's abrasive style (was Re: What's better about Ruby than Python?)

[Cliff Wells]

On Mon, 2003-08-18 at 21:43, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> Cliff Wells wrote:
> >
> > The major problem appears to be your mode of communication.  At first
> > I took your questions seriously, then I began to think you were
> > trolling (and a rather clever troll at that), and finally I've come
> > to the conclusion that you're not trolling, rather merely arrogant and
> > abrasive.
> 
> Bingo!  Guilty as charged.  And I get more and more abrasive the more people
> call me a troll.  As do most people who aren't actually trolling.

Quoting the Dalai Lama:
Conventional truth, conventional reality is a consensus reality,
something that people agree on. Events do not have a reality of their
own. All events depend on other events. Nothing (no person) has an
independent identity, there is no intrinsic reality. What is called
"reality" depends on the context of other factors.

While I don't necessarily consider the Dalai Lama an authority on all
(or even many) things, I think there is certainly a great amount of
truth to this observation.  If the majority of people think you are
trolling, then, whether you intend to or not, perhaps you are.

If you were being truly pragmatic, as you claim, then you must surely
realize that offending people with an abrasive approach is
counter-productive.  Especially when many of those people are central to
the Python community.  By that I don't mean prolific posting (although
that is part of it), but rather the people who have some of the most
intimate knowledge of Python and some who actually contribute to its
development.  You might think that killfiling those people will teach
them a lesson (it won't, they could probably care less), but I can
guarantee that if you do use Python you will suffer far more than they
from missing out on their knowledge of the tool you've chosen.  If you
post a question regarding actual use of Python (versus rhetorical
questions about its utility or future) you have increased your chance of
not seeing the answer because you've killfiled the person with the
knowledge you are after.

> I ask tough questions about Python vs. other languages and platforms.  Some
> people can't handle it.  Maybe they'd handle it if I diplomatically sugar
> coated it, but I'm not going to.  Things to irritate the "Brandon's a troll"
> crowd some more:
> 
> - Python is not a good language for low-level 3D graphics problems.  C++ is
> better.

This is a worthless assertion.  I don't think anyone has suggested
otherwise, either in any of the threads you've started or at any other
time.  You did assert it in an earlier thread, but it was apparently in
response to nothing.

> - Python isn't a rapid prototyping godsend for every problem out there.

No, but for many if not most.

> - GUI and tools support can end up being more important than language
> niceties.

Absolutely.  This is one of the main reasons languages like Ruby and
Haskell aren't in my toolkit.  wxRuby appears to be in the pre-alpha
stages and wxHaskell doesn't exist at all.  And this is just one thing.

> - Microsoft C# and .NET are strategic threats to Python's prosperity and
> vitality, if not survival.

This is certainly arguable.  Java certainly hasn't stopped Python's
growth.  There is little to support this claim other than fear or
admiration of Microsoft.

> - Pythonistas should consider trying to eat Java's lunch, because they
> aren't going to eat Microsoft's lunch.

IMHO, Python is set to become the Visual Basic of the open-source
world.  RedHat uses it for many of its administrative tools and the RH
installer.  It comes bundled with most open source operating systems. 
Many open source applications are starting to use Python as an extension
and scripting language.  Python on Win32 might struggle against MS
languages (whatever that means), but as Linux gains mindshare it carries
Python with it.  It seems MacOSX might also become a "carrier" of
Python.

> - Ruby has some mindshare among people with knowledge of Python.

Certainly.  Your questions regarding this were something I had wondered
myself but didn't concern myself with due to Ruby's lack of
infrastructure (tools and libraries).

> - Yet unnamed languages are capable of taking Python's place on the food
> chain.

As with any other language.  Of course languages aren't applications or
operating systems.  The competition isn't quite the same in this arena. 
For the most part, it doesn't matter if you write your application in
BrandonBasic of which you are the sole user and developer.  What matters
is how your applications written in this unappreciated language perform.

> - You have to promote your language, grow its market share, to prevent that
> from happening.

Okay, this is where you lose me: why?  Why should I care if other people
use Python?  In my opinion, being in an exclusive group of developers
who use what I consider to be superior tools gives me a distinct
advantage.  Why would I want that to change?  I certainly recommend
Python to others, but that's just my nice side winning out.  If someone
irritates me I have no problem recommending Perl or C# to them <wink>.

> These analyses are called "sanity" in the Windows world.  It's Reality On
> The Ground.  It's really odd to come to a developer community where people
> are insular and freak out about these kinds of pronouncements.  It makes
> Windows people wonder if Python people are capable of industrial relevancy.

Probably these same people wondered the same about Linux advocates a few
years ago.  In a few more years they'll wonder what happened to their
beloved behemoth (Windows).

> Fortunately, I was pointed to the marketing-python list and I've discovered
> that not all Python crowds are the same.

Part of the reason people respond to you so violently is because you
tend to make unsubstantiated and provocative claims and then accuse
people of being "knee-jerk reactionaries" when they dismiss them.

> The rest of you: wake up!  Smell the Windows!

Sorry, I haven't smelled that smell (except incidentally) since 1994
(Slackware 1.0).  I expect to be smelling it less and less as time goes
on.  However, this is a fine example of an unnecessarily inflammatory
statement.


Regards,
Cliff

-- 
I have seen too much, wipe away my eyes
                              -Bauhaus