Defending the Python lanuage...

[Steve Holden]

"Cliff Wells" <logiplexsoftware at earthlink.net> wrote ...
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:11:26 +0100
> Laura Creighton wrote:
>
[ ... ]
> >
> > This is incorrect.
>
> How dare you.   ;)
>
> > It works great with people with radically different
> > skill levels.  Of course, they start to converge, so they do not end
> > up with different skill levels.  thats the point.  For example, people
> > who pair program with me and are not aware of design patterns and
> signature
> > based polymorphism will get that fixed in a hurry.  But what happens
> > when Alex Martelli and I are pair programming is I learn so much stuff
> > I never even heard about before.
>
Alex will be glad he isn't going to get denser :-) -- "convergence" in my
mind tends to imply both ends moving towards a midpoint, and reading that
last paragraph I immediately thought "Damn, so whoever sits with me will get
dumber" :-)

> No doubt.  This is in fact how I have trained people in the past - they
sit
> and watch me program with some toolkit and we discuss what I'm doing (I
had
> great success teaching someone with no programming experience whatsoever
> how to integrate Python, wxPython and MySQL - in less than 3 months he was
> writing on his own [and damn arrogant too, I might add]).

In the UK this is known as "sitting with Nellie" (Nellie typically being
someone who has been doing the job you are supposed to learn since before
you were a twinkle in your parents' eye). It's not terribly highly regarded
as an isolated technique, but mostly because Nellie only knows how to *do*
the job, and may not have much theoretical insight into its fundamentals.

>  However, I think
> a key point in his progress a a programmer was when he finally sat at his
> own computer and worked independently of me.  I'm reminded of a Chinese
> proverb I read in a calculus book:
>
> I hear and I forget
> I see and I remember
> I do and I understand
>
Hence the value of the "Hands-On" elements in the classes I teach, for
example.

> Now you know Laura, that your posts are so rare and insightful that I am
> loathe to disagree with you, -but- ;) my point is that while working
> together is extremely beneficial for sharing ideas and information, I
don't
> see sharing the same console with another programmer for 90% of the time
to
> be as beneficial to productivity.  Sitting side-by-side at separate
> consoles, yes, but not at the same console (except when there are
> interesting discoveries/techniques to be shared or design questions to be
> pondered).
>
Well, this merely compounds the mis-empression you mention below ...

> However, this discussion does give me the idea that pair-programming could
> be very beneficial if programmers were rotated on some schedule, so that
> one day they watched someone else and on another someone else watched
them,
> especially given a group of several programmers that could be rotated
> through.  This way, programmers would get enough time doing development on
> their own but still have a chance to share ideas with other programmers in
> their group.  Too bad I'm not in a position to give it a try :P
>
The idea behind pair programming is exactly that such rotations should take
place. You seem to think that two prograqmmers are joined at the hip when
teams are formed, but in fact the pairings arise fairly spontaneously in
most cases.

> > It is such a joy.
>
> I'm glad to hear it =)
>
> > > 2.  like and respect each other
> > > 3.  have compatible programming philosophies
> >
> > (you are spot on with those, however.)
> >
> > Cliff, again you are up against 'American management is impossible.'
> > Seriously consider visiting Sweden, for a vacation.  I think you would
> > like it here.
>
> You'd better be careful what you ask for - you're starting to tempt me -
> you could end up with some guy with a strange accent and stranger ideas
> hanging around ;)  I expect I could learn quite a bit from you.
>
>
You should try it. I spent six months in Stockholm thirty years ago, and
would still love to go back to Sweden. Also AB Strakt are serious about
Python, so you wouldn't be forced to usae something ghastly like C++.

regards
 Steve
--
Consulting, training, speaking: http://www.holdenweb.com/
Author, Python Web Programming: http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/

"This is Python.  We don't care much about theory, except where it
intersects with useful practice."  Aahz Maruch on c.l.py