Newbie's 1st Web App decisions!

[Paul Boddie]

Scrumpy <reply at in_newsgroup.tks> wrote in message news:<a8i8gn$rbe$1 at hfc.pacific.net.hk>...
> I want to learn Python for use in creating web apps and possibly to create 
> stand-alone apps with wxPython.

[...]

> There seem to be various projects which provide web app 
> servers/components/development frameworks. Quite a few seem to overlap ;-) 
> Here are one's I've looked at:
> Slither http://slither.toolsofcomputing.com/

I hadn't seen this one before, but it looks rather interesting. A
number of people have already asked about the Web modules overview
which I had, and in the replacement document(s) I should attempt to
cover Slither as well as the other major frameworks.

> Webware for Python http://webware.sourceforge.net/
> Skunkweb http://skunkweb.sourceforge.net/about.html
> OSE http://ose.sourceforge.net/

OSE looks powerful, but I haven't heard of many people using it for
Web applications.

> There are also various projects which 'integrate' Python with 
> Apache/AOLserver:
> Mod_Python
> Mod_Snake
> PyApache
> Cheetah
> PyWX
> 
> It look like I'm spoilt for choice and it's hard to decide where I should 
> direct my efforts.

Cheetah is a templating system, but you should not let the other
options listed confuse you too much - whether one uses mod_python,
mod_snake or PyApache should really only be a deployment and/or
performance consideration.

> As a side note, some of the comments made by Paul Boddie ( 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-September/064133.html ) 
> seem justified.

I wish to change my mind regarding some of them, though. :-) Actually,
I think those comments still stand as an accurate, if subjective
record of Zope history from the point of view of a casual
experimenter, but I did get to try out certain things with Zope 2.5
recently and certain things are as easy as they always were (or had
the potential to be), and certainly easier than they are with other
frameworks. (Notably the use of Zope Components and their persistence
- this is a lot easier than with other frameworks.)

[...]

> Webware seems to be one of the more respected projects and I get the 
> impression that it improves the productivity/time to completion for people 
> using it.

There are live sites running Webware (such as http://www.vorbis.com)
and whilst, in my opinion, there are various issues that arise about
support for certain things which one might have believed to have been
covered by now, the development community is very active and very
eager to improve the framework. Reading the list shows how hard it is
to write a general Web framework, and I would recommend anyone
thinking of writing their own framework to skim the archives (and view
the Wiki) at the very least.

> On the surface, Slither seems to cover more web app server bases than 
> Webware. I am interested in persistance with backend db's but am more drawn 
> to using Slither with mod_snake than mod_python. So far though, I have not 
> found any independant info on Slither (and nothing at all on Slither with 
> mod_snake) so input from users with experience of using Slither and Webare 
> would be most welcomed.

There are actually many persistence modules in Python, as it turns
out, partly because persistence is a bit like Web page templating -
everyone has their own idea about how it should be done - but it's
also a subject which lends itself to different approaches. (In the
article you referenced, I still agree with those comments on
templating systems.)

> What I would be most appreciative of, is your helpful suggestions on how to 
> start in Python Web app development and on relevant books.
> 
> Finally (at last you cry!), although Zope is one way to go, as this is for 
> me primarily a learning experience, I would prefer to stay closer to Python 
> and 'perhaps' enjoy better web app performance. Zope does seem to be better 
> suited for creating CMS apps but I am not creating a CMS app :)

Having experimented with Zope, before becoming disappointed or
concerned about development, deployment and management issues, and
finally looking into Zope again after seeing interesting applications
like Squishdot in widespread production use, I think Zope is very
suitable for a number of application types. Moreover, through various
features, Zope specially addresses areas that the other frameworks are
less likely to address "out of the box", such as the way applications
can be configured by creating objects at appropriate places in the
object database - this is very intuitive (and quite remarkable) once
the concepts are understood.

> Bows and leaves the stage,
> Scrumpy :)

Applause? ;-)

Paul