[Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E

[Kirby Urner]

> Kirby writes-
> 
> >I think you're in denial that something new has emerged, and that
> >education (however we want to define it) will never be the same 
> >as it was.
> 
> And I think you are exhibiting mystical tendencies.
> 

I really don't understand why you think this.  Technology has made a big
difference to our way of life many times already.  Refrigeration changed
things (antibiotics need it -- Wulf was talking about this; read my blog
post?).  Or take movable type.  Schools wouldn't be anything like they are
now without mass publishing.  All that had to be invented.  Would someone
raving how the printing press was going to change everything be considered
"exhibiting mystical tendencies"?  I suppose we each had our counterparts
living way back when.

> What is new is going to solve problems with which
> it has no connection, otherwise why would have been put here.
> 
> You are also saying it is in inevitable.
> 

I don't know exactly what "it" is in the above sentence.  I think there'll
be many abuses of computer technology, have been already, many
counter-productive experiments.  It's called trial and error and we're going
to see lots of errors.  

Kids tend to observe their peers and learn from them.  So what comes to be
the most popular way of using computers won't be imposed top-down by
schooling.  Rather, many students today take a high bandwidth internet
connection for granted.  For them, the computer means IM (instant messaging)
and music.  It's a tool for a social life, a communications device, like the
cell phone.  A minority maintains hosts on the Internet, but I expect more
to do so as time goes on.  A greater number keep blogs and/or a web site.

It's kind of like waves coming in at the beach.  You build channels, sand
castles, you engineer formations to take in the ocean and make it flood your
particular piece of beach property.  I see computer technology like an
ocean, sending wave after wave to the beach.  I can't stop these waves, but
I can design my little sand structures to take advantage of them.  Plus I
walk up and down the beach and learn from what others are doing, maybe
stopping to help if invited.

> If you are making a political statement about my being quixotic
> in trying to fight this battle, and expecting to win -
> you are probably quite correct.
> 

I so far don't really understand where you've drawn the battle lines.  You
seem to have no problem with computer technology flooding into some niches,
such as geometry ala Pygeo or other areas of math-learning.  But when talk
turns to Shakespeare or other humanities topics, you seem to bristle and
reach for your battle armor.  

But what is it you're fighting exactly?  You talk about Life Magazine and I
point out that at least the covers, and really quite a bit of the internals
show up for free on the web.  Time covers too.

We're talking about a front end to a vast and growing library.  Google is
just getting started -- is moving a data center to our neck of the woods by
the way, some excitement about that.  What is it you're against exactly?  Is
it a problem for you that kids in Sacramento have access to the Vatican
Library?  You'd rather they stick with silly putty?

> Once a politcal force convinces that its victory is inevitable,
> its victory is in fact inevitable. The quintessential  self-fulfilling
> prophecy.
> 
> I do think that the fact that someone of your profile accepts
> the prophecy is a good indication I am at this point in fact
> fighting the nature of things.
> 

The prophecy hasn't been spelled out in any real detail in this thread.  I'm
leery of arguing in the absence of any fleshed out utopian/dystopian
imagery.  We need some good sci-fi movies, projecting the near future,
movies we might both see and then discuss.  There's an Expo going on in
Japan right now, with lots of futuristic imagery.  Maybe that's a place to
start.  I just don't know what future you're fighting.  If a saw a movie
projecting what you most fear or dislike, I might feel the same way.  Your
dystopia might have a lot in common with my dystopia.  I just don't know at
this point.

I think part of the communication gap between us is you write in a somewhat
telegraphic, aphoristic style.  I do that too sometimes, but I also write
oodles of stuff on the web that's relatively long winded.  I have a "verbose
on" mode.  People who want to research my thinking have a lot to go on, if
they dig a little.  I'm what they call a prolific writer.

You tend to be terse to the point of being cryptic; to a point where I
sometimes question your level of self-awareness (doesn't he understand that
people really can't read his mind simply on the basis of low-bandwidth posts
to edu-sig?).

> But you are good at questioning where we are, not as good
>  - IMO - in understanding how we got to where we are.
> 
> We will only be only getting there once again,
> now in a new way.
> 
> Being fooled again.
> 
> Thrilling.
> 
> Art

This is an example of what I'm talking about.  Terse, telegraphic, and
boarding on meaningless -- unless you back it up with more context.

Trying being highly verbose for a change, if you want me to even have a clue
what your beef is with my pro-computers-in-education agenda.  I'm going to
stop butting heads with you until I at least have a better understanding of
what gives you nightmares.

Kirby