[Tutor] Communicating (was: Create command)

Thu Sep 22 16:30:54 EDT 2022

Programming is a skill, as is teaching. Just because someone knows programming, does not mean they can teach it well or even say it well.

When someone new comes to the list, and often that is displayed by the question(s) they ask, it might be better for the community that those who have *both* Python and Teaching skills answer. For the more advanced questioner, or those who have been here a while, and who understand the mix of cultures and personalities, maybe those who are still working on their communication skills can jump in.

I am not a perfect teacher, but I do understand the difference between talking about something and helping someone else learn.

Leam

On 9/22/22 13:21, Steve Willoughby wrote:
> Personally, I think a tutor list should be as friendly to people seeking tutorial (i.e. beginner-level) help as they try to figure out Python, even if it’s their first experience with programming, while at the same time holding firm on our position of offering advice without doing homework for them.
> 
> What concerned me most about Dominique’s request was the thought that a teacher was expecting her to complete an assignment without adequately preparing her to understand what was needed. (Of course, if this was a case of her working on her own to learn Python using exercises she found on her own, then bravo for being self-motivated and maybe it would be good to start with one of the tutorial books or websites that will give a gentle introduction to it all up front.) I didn’t mind that she was looking here for help, although my response was to try to point her in the right direction and let her keep trying, knowing she’d learn a lot more that way than if I just gave her the answer. I hope nothing in that was taken to be negative or condescending.
> 
>> On 22-Sep-2022, at 05:42, Nadine Mullings <nmullings1 at fordham.edu> wrote:
>>
>> This is a listserv that goes out to multiple recipients. I would encourage
>> those who offer help to assume positive intent and share help in that
>> spirit otherwise reserve their additional commentary for outside this
>> chain. It was disappointing to see the blatantly condescending response to
>> this inquiry.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 6:40 AM Dominique Hagler <dbhagler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Avi,
>>>
>>> I never asked anyone to DO my homework I was providing what I had so I
>>> could have a better understanding.
>>>
>>> Thank you, I will no longer need service from you all.
>>>
>>> Thank you Steve for taking the time that you did.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Dominique Hagler
>>> Have a great day!
>>>
>>> Sent from an iPhone, so please excuse brevity and typos!
>>>
>>>> On Sep 21, 2022, at 9:57 PM, avi.e.gross at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Steve,
>>>>
>>>> I think it is time for some of us to go into business and charge $500 or
>>> more per hour to actually DO people's HW from beginning to end and not even
>>> think of trying to get them to learn anything. I am afraid even at that
>>> price we might have people who took us seriously and were willing to pay!
>>> LOL!
>>>>
>>>> Kidding aside, I and others here want to be helpful but not do their
>>> work. The goal is supposed to be to get them to think and learn and perhaps
>>> explain some facet where they are stuck.
>>>>
>>>> I am not clear what Dominique wants as her understanding of the word
>>> "command" may very much differ from what some of us may mean.
>>>>
>>>> So to be clear, the assignment she is looking at can range from the
>>> trivial to the complex. There already is built-in python functionality that
>>> deals with key value pairs in data structures with names like dictionary or
>>> hash or associative array. A function that encapsulates that may not be
>>> needed but can be simple enough.
>>>>
>>>> But what is a command line? Is it the shell in which you invoke python
>>> from as in the old days? Probably not as a way to call python and ask it to
>>> store a key/value pair and return immediately seems less than useful.
>>>>
>>>> So, I assume she means the console-level of a python interpreter. But
>>> what does it mean to type "key-value" there, let alone "./key-value.rb" ???
>>>>
>>>> The latter looks like a RUBY file and that is not even python.
>>>>
>>>> So the question is a tad muddled and a non-starter even if we were
>>> willing to do her HW.
>>>>
>>>> My guess is that what is being asked for is sort of like asking you to
>>> write a primitive calculator in python and then calling it interactively
>>> and having it read your commands like "5 + 3" and parsing and evaluating
>>> such commands line after line till you quit.
>>>>
>>>> So without providing an answer, it is my GUESS you need to write a
>>> stand-alone python program. Give it a name like hashing.py and call it from
>>> a command line or double click on an icon or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> Inside the program it should initialize something like an empty
>>> dictionary object and read lines from STDIN that the user types that use
>>> some format to specify your request to add a key and value pair. Additional
>>> commands it should handle are mentioned such as fetching the value for an
>>> existing key. Who knows what else is being asked, such as showing the
>>> current contents, deleting and so on. It sounds a bit like the calculator
>>> analogy. Make a program that lets you add and modify and whatever the
>>> contents of  dictionary.
>>>>
>>>> I see no code illustrating such a user interface. The class should have
>>> covered how to play with something like a dictionary (or is asking to build
>>> your own) and how to read from a console and write to it and so on.
>>>>
>>>> But as none of us here has been in the class or seen what materials have
>>> been covered, and it is not our HW, I think Dominique should either do it
>>> herself and only ask when some more specific Python question comes up, such
>>> as how do you put out a prompt without a carriage return inserted, or
>>> whatever. The HW is meant to have the student learn and mostly do it
>>> themselves so if  test (or the real world) comes around, ...
>>>>
>>>> I may be a bit touchy as someone on another forum submitted totally
>>> clearly a HW style question that their girlfriend asked them to do for her,
>>> so of course they figured they delegate it to a random bunch of people out
>>> there and take the credit. I sent a note suggesting we don't really feel
>>> like doing HW, especially so indirectly and got a reply:
>>>>
>>>> " so what if it is home work - if you can't do something, simply walk
>>> away- "
>>>>
>>>> What a nice attitude. Totally missed or avoided my point and suggested I
>>> leave them alone to find someone else to do it for them.
>>>>
>>>> Like I said, if we charged $500/hour, would most people realize that the
>>> goal is to do it for themselves?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Tutor <tutor-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com at python.org> On Behalf
>>> Of Steve Willoughby
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2022 6:58 PM
>>>> To: Dominique Hagler <dbhagler at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: tutor at python.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Tutor] Create command
>>>>
>>>> Dominique,
>>>>
>>>> It looks like you have an interesting homework exercise there to figure
>>> out. I don’t see a specific question from you, though. What have you tried
>>> so far? How did that work? What are your thoughts for where to proceed with
>>> this?
>>>>
>>>> We can help guide you in your course of discovery here, but we need
>>> something to start with since we’re not going to do your homework for y ou.
>>>>
>>>>> On 21-Sep-2022, at 03:36, Dominique Hagler <dbhagler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Create a command line tool for storing and fetching key-value pairs. In
>>> other words, given a key and a value, which are both strings, it can store
>>> key and value together, and then return that value when fetched by that
>>> key. The tool must be able to be run from the command line by typing
>>> "key-value", though it is acceptable to also require the path or an
>>> extension (eg, "./key-value.rb" is fine). If needed, it is acceptable to
>>> include a setup script that must be run before the tool can be run. Running
>>> the tool must open an interactive session that accepts put, fetch, and exit
>>> commands. When ready to accept a command, it must output the string "> " as
>>> a command prompt.
>>>>>
>>>>> My command example:
>>>>>
>>>>> Person1 = { “name” : “ Daisy”, “age”: 20}
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dominique Hagler
>>>>> Have a great day!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from an iPhone, so please excuse brevity and typos!
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>> -- 
>> Nadine *(she/her)*
>>
>> Nadine Mullings <https://namedrop.io/nadinemullings>
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> 
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