[TriZPUG] Intern Web Developer needed - Python, Django, MongoDB, Mobile

Wed Jul 11 22:56:16 CEST 2012

I had something to do with Robby's own internship so I've been interested in seeing how this develops. :)

-M

On Jul 11, 2012, at 4:33 PM, Sean Cavanaugh wrote:

> Hey Robby,
> 
> I don't think anyone was totally against it, we just wanted prospective applicants to get different view points on what an 'internship' is.  I think if you had used the word 'entry level' or something no one would have said anything.  I think as soon as someone interviewed with you and you talked about some of the stuff you said in your response they could make their own choice.  Personally I think it looks like you have a good program going on and once you explained your program it seems pretty cool and if I had friends with that background I would encourage them to check it out.
> 
> Personally I wish I had an easy time hiring people with some talent instead of nothing, I often find that we have to hire someone and retrain them entirely, or train them on whatever we are doing specifically at the time.  
> 
> -S
> 
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Robby Dermody <robby at u20.org> wrote:
> Hi guys, thanks for your feedback. I've been travelling so I haven't been able to repond until now.
>  
> What I laid out in the job description I believe is reasonable. We are not requiring any Python or Django experience, nor any experience with Cisco/Avaya contact center technologies (both of which will be the primary focus of this position and which we will train the intern on). I believe requiring SOME sort of experience (i.e. working with some kind of web framework -- even if it is in college) and some kind of programming experience is definitely necessary. We simply can't train up from nothing. It's counterproductive and unnecessary given the pool of folks out there that have tech experience but are looking to "trade up" or learn something new.
> I understand that there are quite a few orgranizations that will bring on lower-paid people like this and try to keep them at these rates. I totally agree that this practice is abusive. We are not like that. Between my business partner and I, we have personally taken at least 5 people that we started at $15 or so an hour, trained them for 6 months to a year, and either brought them up to a 80K+ salary, or helped them get a job in the industry making between 80K-140K/yr. During this 6 month period we will give 25-50% pay raises every 2 months if the individual is working out (otherwise they will be free to find a job somewhere else). My friend was a pool cleaner making $14/hr. 6 months after he started working with us, we placed him in a job at a large integrator making 85K + bonus. He still works there today. This is how we work. We give people an opporunity to learn new valuable skills, and in return we get cheap(er) work for a few months as we train and teach them the trade. We are currently doing this with 3 folks at this time, beyond the 5+ we have already done this with.
>  
> I'd rather find someone with a minimum skill set but raw smarts, and train them up and keep them. I put those "requirements/preferences" in because quite often we find someone mid point in their career that is willing to work for less to pick up new and valuable technology and have a chance for some real advancement.
>  
> So to conclude, I respect your opinion, but I believe that you simply can't argue with results and a track record in this regard.
>  
> Robby
> 
>  
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Chris H <chris at windsorcircle.com> wrote:
> I agree with much of what has been said about interns as I consider the only experience required for an intern is an introductory programming course (preferably python).
> 
> However, I think the article is from someone who made mistakes in their selection process of which startups to work for, probably due to not having some of the information that the article shares.  I know there are a lot of bad startups out their who create this impression, but there are a lot of good startups as well.  For some people, it is really how they are built.  I love the energy in a startup's early stages, the excitement of hitting new milestones every month (or week), and building something new without a history to deal with.  There are risks and you should go into a startup knowing those risks.  If your only goal is to make sure you are paid at a certain level, then corporate America is probably the place for you.  If you care more about the challenge an creating something new and just need a certain salary to fund your lifestyle, then maybe you would like a startup culture.  I'm in my second startup now.  The first was venture funded and I came in at a low salary as one of their first software developers.  I stayed for 15 years and was well taken care of by the time it exited by being purchased by a public company.  I stayed with the public company for a few years and hated it.  Maybe it was just a bad division of a large company to work for like some startups, but I'll take a pay cut any day over that again.  I do know people who work at large companies and love it as well so it really depends on the person and what drives them.  The key is to make sure you know as much as possible about the situation you are getting into and then get out if it isn't working.
> 
> Definitely work with your university to figure out expected salary ranges.  
> 
> C
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Sean Cavanaugh <sean at cavanaugh.pro> wrote:
> +1
> 
> any job saying the word 'intern' and 'experience' in the same breath is fishy.  We have 6 interns in my building and we just required them to be in school (5 of them go to NC State).  The idea is you train smart 'kids' that are in a technical degree (compsci, compeng, etc) and you only have to pay them minimally in return for education.  I agree 100%
> 
> Here is a great article I read the other day on startups too, for those who are in University looking at startups->
> http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/dont-waste-your-time-in-crappy-startup-jobs/
> (this is obviously biased and there good startups out there, just wanted another viewpoint sent out)
> 
> Also just FYI, the minimum per year salary for my graduating class with a BS in computer engineering was 54K (in 2009) with ~35 people and 1 got as high as 65K, and the market is not that bad for developers/engineers that you should be going below that for an 'intern' job (i have no idea what that particular job was paying).  Work with your University to figure out average salaries out of Universities before you accept the first job offer that comes your way.  
> 
> -S
> 
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Chris Rossi <chris at archimedeanco.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Robby Dermody <robby at paramise.com> wrote:
> We’re a local company looking for a web developer intern to work on our flagship product, AppTend. AppTend allows companies to better support their smartphone and tablet-based users, and enables them to get customer support without having to dial into a clumsy phone tree interface (“press 1 for sales, press 2 for service”). Learn more about several cutting edge areas of technology, including Django, mobile web/mobile app development, HTML 5 and MongoDB. This is a great opportunity to learn some great technology with a real-world product that’s in use today by companies such as Samsung. 
> 
> 
> Respectfully, I'd like to encourage any young readers considering this opportunity to consider the following:
> 
> An internship is an educational opportunity.  They are often arranged through colleges or universities and interns often receive class credit for participating.  Barring formal ties to an institution of higher learning, an internship aimed at adult post-graduates should at least provide an opportunity to learn skills one doesn't already have.  An internship tends also to be time limited--for a summer, for a few months.  Here's what Wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship
> 
> Although the original poster stays within the letter of the law (you'd be making more than minimum wage), this particular opportunity, in my opinion, doesn't meet the standard of an internship.  Applicants are required to already be qualified for the position with both education and experience and are expected to work full time for a more or less open ended period of time.  That is the definition of a job.  Not an internship.  The required qualifications make it difficult to regard this as an educational opportunity, as you'd need to already know how to do the job.  The word internship seems to be used in this case to justify paying a wage that is below fair market value even for an entry level position.  Assuming you have the qualifications enumerated by the original poster, you're probably ready for a real entry level job, not an internship, and should expect commensurate compensation.
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> Chris
> 
> 
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