 tags and that is not reliable as that tab is
used for other things.

OK in addition to the suggested changes let me go back to the drawing
board on what source I am using and how to parse the data I desire.
Thank you for the assistance everyone.

Ken

On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 18:56 -0400, Tim Arnold wrote:
> I may be missing something, but your code looks okay to me. I looked
> for the source text and found a couple of examples that made me wonder
> though--in one the lines were broken and in the other paragraphs were
> set in a single line, but still not all the  parts had 
> parts.
> 
> 
> Can you post a direct link to the file? Or maybe someone else will see
> a problem in the code.  I would have used lists and not kept the files
> open, but that's just a matter of taste--your logic looks right to me.
> --Tim Arnold
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Ken M  wrote:
>         OK so working on a project (just started) that is for my own
>         academic
>         purposes for now.  Just trying to train myself in python.  The
>         attached
>         code snippet is to convert the websters dictionary (grab
>         specific
>         components) and insert them in a pipe delimmited data file for
>         now.
>         Next will be to a database.
>         
>         When I ran this for a 4.5 MB snippet of the file it worked
>         fine, output
>         file generated output good.  However when I run it for the
>         entirety of
>         the webster.txt file (45 MB) the program runs (well more
>         apropos ends
>         without any error message to me) but the output file I am
>         creating is
>         empty (0 bytes).
>         
>         The purpose for now is to build a subset dictionary file that
>         is nothing
>         more than word and the single letter initialism for word type
>         (n = noun,
>         v = verb, etc.)  Would appreciate insight into why this is not
>         running
>         to completion.  If anyone cares to know, I am running this on
>         a Fedora
>         14 box, I edit and created my .py file with vim and my python
>         installation is python-2.7-8.fc14.1.i686 (output from rpm -q
>         python).
>         
>         Thanks in advance,
>         Ken
>         
>         P.S.  To save bandwidth I did not attach the webster.txt file
>         however if
>         anyone wanted to run this against it themselves it can be
>         acquired
>         through the Project Gutenberg site.
>         
>         _______________________________________________
>         TriZPUG mailing list
>         TriZPUG at python.org
>         http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
>         http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group
> 
> 

From jj at email.unc.edu  Fri Apr  1 18:56:17 2011
From: jj at email.unc.edu (Johnson, Josh)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 16:56:17 +0000
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django
	or	Pyramid	(Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <4D9601FE.4030907@gmail.com>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>

	<4D924405.9030900@unc.edu>

	,
	<4D9601FE.4030907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF58C@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>

I think Ben Bogert's attribution of Max Lager for his 'enlightenment' may be an indication this was just some kind of sick joke!  booooo!

JJ
________________________________________
From: trizpug-bounces+josh_johnson=unc.edu at python.org [trizpug-bounces+josh_johnson=unc.edu at python.org] on behalf of bob gailer [bgailer at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 12:49 PM
To: trizpug at python.org
Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or       Pyramid (Pylons/BFG)?

On 4/1/2011 11:23 AM, Paul McLanahan wrote:
> Looks like we have a winner! Just released today ;)
>
> http://web2pyramid.pylonsproject.org/
Maybe - I went there and can't tell what to do next.

I clicked JOIN THE FUTURE ON GITHUB - I certainly can't tell what to do
next there!

What am I missing?

There are some screen shots. What do I do with them?

--
Bob Gailer
919-636-4239
Chapel Hill NC

_______________________________________________
TriZPUG mailing list
TriZPUG at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group

From cbc at unc.edu  Mon Apr  4 16:07:58 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:07:58 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG April 2011 Meeting: Your Talk Goes Here
Message-ID: <4D99D0BE.4020903@unc.edu>

We're meeting at Carrboro Creative Coworking at 7pm on Thursday, April 28.

Lately, I've seen some mighty opinionated folks expressing themselves in 
this group. That lets me know you've got plenty to talk about. So if 
you'd like to address this group's next meeting, please post a message 
here to let us know what your talk will be like.

I'd certainly be glad to post meeting announcements which pimp the talk 
you are going to give at the next or any subsequent meeting.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From jj at email.unc.edu  Mon Apr  4 20:18:36 2011
From: jj at email.unc.edu (Johnson, Josh)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:18:36 +0000
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or Pyramid
 (Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>

Thanks for the responses, everyone. 

First off, I forgot to mention my username on IRC is jjmojojjmojo :) So if anyone was looking to strike up a conversation there, that's me.

Here are my thoughts on the subject:

I think that Django has a lot to offer in a lot of key areas where Pyramid may be lacking. The ones that have stood out to me so far include: available add-on products (especially user registration/management), overall maturity, the automatic administration interface, and the tight ORM integration (notably South, used for schema migrations). 

They both have a great developer community, great documentation, a decent model for getting URLs to invoke code[1], acceptable testing stories, reasonable levels of extensibility, and getting started is quick and painless in either case.  

I've been mulling over this all weekend, got more comfortable with the 'why' behind Pyramid's approach[2], and I've come to some conclusions:

When I did Django it felt like I had to understand a specific methodology to get things done. It reminded me of Plone; I had to become indoctrinated in the Django Way(TM) before I could really get good at it. Granted, I think that takes a lot less time with Django, and the outcomes might be more satisfying, but the problem is the same. 

It really became apparent when I had to get back to an in-progress SQLAlchemy-based project shortly after doing Django ORM. It felt like I was learning SQLA all over again, and it really impeded my progress.[3] 

With Pyramid, I had trouble at first because the code skeletons and documentation are geared toward someone who wants to get up and running and doesn't care about what it's doing.  They cover a small set of common use cases, without a lot of explanation. The little bit of documentation that touched on the edge cases was not as stellar as the core docs. 

It was frustrating; I had trouble seeing where I had to intercede if I wanted to add something that was missing. Evaluating middleware and external components was made more difficult by the fact that Pyramid is so new, and used to be repoze.bfg. It was due to my own ignorance of how WSGI and PasteDeply/Script work, for the most part, but still an impedance. 

That said, after coming to a good understanding of WSGI and what exactly Pyramid was doing for me, I can't see using anything heavier. Heck, I'm tempted to just use WSGI and >maybe< WebOb. :P I'm comfortable writing things at a low level, what are the frameworks even buying me?[4]

People keep telling me that getting up and running fast is always the best way. Pick a framework with the most out-of-the-box features you need, and hack your way to making it work for you. You'll have time to refactor later! 

But in my experience, it seems that that's always a mistake. There's never time to refactor. Then the application breaks, it gets slow, it doesn't do what you need the way you thought. Then you're scrambling and hacking and tracing and posting and chatting your proverbial behind off trying to get it working again. And you don't have time to think, or thoroughly dig into the code. More often than not, you learn nothing, or worse: you learn the limitations of the framework.

What I need is something I can understand, so I can say with confidence what's wrong when things go bad, and fix it. I'm sick of telling my users "Sorry, that's a Plone bug, there's nothing we can do" or hacking around problems because I don't have time to figure out what's really wrong. And I don't have time because it takes too long to really understand what's going on under the hood[5] 

I don't want to put myself in that position with a whole new framework that tries to make web development easy for everyone, but makes life hard if you don't run plays from their book.

So I've decided I'm going to utilize WSGI, and keep the frameworks in play to a minimum. Pyramid will probably be a good place to start, since I think it'll handle a lot of the simple web application issues well (I think it may do too much in some areas, but I may be able to tease out the pieces I need if it gets to be too much). 

I know it's not a perfect approach, but the WSGI middleware story solves a lot of the issues I've had with add-ons in Plone and Django in the past. The middleware is a black box. No API to learn or adapt to, just a specific input and an expected output. If it doesn't work for me, I can swap it out for something else. 

If I need ORM, I'm already pretty good with SQLAlchemy, I can use that.  

Ultimately, I think what I've learned from this is that I'm through being a Web Developer. It's time I embraced the fact that I'm a _Programmer_. I'm not going to let myself or anyone I work with be complacent any longer[7]. If I had never programmed before, or never did web programming before, I could see the benefit of a batteries-included framework like Django[7]. But my development team and I are way past that point. It's time we took responsibility for the code we write, and stop being afraid to get down and really get into it. I'm confident it won't take us any longer, and we'll end up with a better user experience, which is why we do this in the first place, right?

And anyway, Django developers might be a dime a dozen, Plone developers might be hard to find, and Pyramid developers might not exist... but Pythonistas are many! Viva La Pythonista!

JJ

[1] I don't have a preference really between the various approaches, I can work with either one.
[2] I dug into WSGI and paster and came to a new appreciation of just how flexible of a 'framework' it is, see: http://lionfacelemonface.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/wsgi-and-paste-deploy-the-bare-necessities/
[3] That's not a criticism of Django's ORM, I think it's really nice; it was just so similar yet so different to SQLA that it seems odd that the two satisfy the same problem domain.
[4] I really do know the answer to this, especially on a fundamental level. Things like GET/POST handling, connection management, URL processing, etc. It's the other stuff that I'm finding suspect.
[5] I think this is really due to the fact that I'm living in the high-level API most of the time. 
[6] I believe very strongly that Django has it's place and is a great framework, but trying to serve so many use cases with so much magic is something you do when you're userbase isn't technically astute.
[7] friends and acquaintances: you're next! ;)
[8] ... or TurboGears, or Ruby on Rails, or Zend Framework, or Drupal... :P
________________________________________
From: trizpug-bounces+josh_johnson=unc.edu at python.org [trizpug-bounces+josh_johnson=unc.edu at python.org] on behalf of Josh Johnson [josh_johnson at unc.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:16 AM
To: Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or Pyramid (Pylons/BFG)?

This isn't a typical "I've never used a web framework, what should I
pick" post, I promise.

I'm about to embark on a new project that doesn't have a platform
requirement. I've spent the last year or so working on a very large,
very anno--er--challenging Plone project, and I'm ready for something
different.

I'm honestly interested in hearing _biased_, non-objective, highly
personal accounts of why I should use Django or Pyramid.

I've got more-than-basic understandings of both, but I don't have a
large amount of real-world experience with either. I'd feel comfortable
proceeding either way.

I know there are a lot of very smart people around here using both to do
some really big things, so I figure, this might be my best chance at
getting some usable advice :)

I also think very highly of our community and don't see this devolving
into a flame-war. However, I'm very OK with discussing this off-list, on
#trizpug, 'IRL', over food, in a sauna, whatever. My passport isn't
current, so clandestine meetings in countries without extradition
treaties are out. :P

I'm very happy to elaborate on the requirements we do have, but it's a
pretty basic app that I think either platform could handle well. It'll
be open source, so easy deployment is important, but I think both
frameworks cover that well.

Thanks!
JJ

--
Josh Johnson
Applications Analyst
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
_______________________________________________
TriZPUG mailing list
TriZPUG at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group

From j.c.sackett at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 21:33:42 2011
From: j.c.sackett at gmail.com (j.c.sackett)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:33:42 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or Pyramid
 (Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>
	<6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
Message-ID: 

That said, after coming to a good understanding of WSGI and what exactly Pyramid was doing for me, I can't see using anything heavier. Heck, I'm tempted to just use WSGI and >maybe< WebOb. :P I'm comfortable writing things at a low level, what are the frameworks even buying me?[4]
> 

> So I've decided I'm going to utilize WSGI, and keep the frameworks in play to a minimum. Pyramid will probably be a good place to start, since I think it'll handle a lot of the simple web application issues well (I think it may do too much in some areas, but I may be able to tease out the pieces I need if it gets to be too much). 
> 

If you're interested in just good libraries to do WSGI stuff, it's worth checking out Werkzeug. http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/

//j.c.sackett 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From cbc at unc.edu  Mon Apr  4 22:17:53 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 16:17:53 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or Pyramid
	(Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>
	<6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4D9A2771.7090102@unc.edu>

On 4/4/2011 2:18 PM, Johnson, Josh wrote:
> Heck, I'm tempted to just use WSGI and >maybe< WebOb.

Then this is the framework for you:

http://bobo.digicool.com/

Seriously.

> Ultimately, I think what I've learned from this is that I'm through being a Web Developer. It's time I embraced the fact that I'm a _Programmer_.

OMG, yes.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From pmclanahan at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 22:49:01 2011
From: pmclanahan at gmail.com (Paul McLanahan)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:49:01 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or Pyramid
	(Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>
	<6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>

Message-ID: 

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM, j.c.sackett  wrote:
> If you're interested in just good libraries to do WSGI stuff, it's worth
> checking out Werkzeug. http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/

Or from the same folks: Flask. It's a much smaller footprint
[micro-]framework based on werkzeug and jinja2.

http://flask.pocoo.org/

Paul

From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Apr  5 00:08:24 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 18:08:24 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Toronto PyCamp 2011
Message-ID: <4D9A4158.7000204@unc.edu>

The University of Toronto Department of Physics brings PyCamp to Toronto 
on Monday, June 27 through Thursday, June 30, 2010.

Register today at http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/torpy11/

For beginners, this ultra-low-cost Python Boot Camp makes you productive 
so you can get your work done quickly. PyCamp emphasizes the features 
which make Python a simpler and more efficient language. Following along 
with example Python PushUps? speeds your learning process in a modern 
high-tech classroom. Become a self-sufficient Python developer in just 
four days at PyCamp! Pycamp is conducted on the campus of the University 
of Toronto in a state of the art high technology classroom.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Apr  5 00:09:34 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 18:09:34 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Toronto PyCamp 2011
In-Reply-To: <4D9A4158.7000204@unc.edu>
References: <4D9A4158.7000204@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4D9A419E.9060903@unc.edu>

On 4/4/2011 6:08 PM, Chris Calloway wrote:
> The University of Toronto Department of Physics brings PyCamp to Toronto
> on Monday, June 27 through Thursday, June 30, 2010.

Heh. That's 2011.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From dragonstrider at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 00:35:45 2011
From: dragonstrider at gmail.com (Joseph S. Tate)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:35:45 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or Pyramid
	(Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>
	<6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Johnson, Josh  wrote:
> Thanks for the responses, everyone.
>
> I think that Django has a lot to offer in a lot of key areas where Pyramid may be lacking. The ones that have stood out to me so far include: available add-on products (especially user registration/management), overall maturity, the automatic administration interface, and the tight ORM integration (notably South, used for schema migrations).
>

Look at sqlalchemy-migrate, versioned schema migrations for
SQLAlchemy.  Not my favorite library, but it works, even in two
directions.

As for micro-frameworks, I really like cherrypy, in fact even if
you're doing straight wsgi, I'd drop paste deploy post haste and use
the cherrypy's wsgi server.  So much faster, and you can even drop the
proxying behind Apache/Nginx server deployment model because it's
pretty fast at serving static files, and it supports HTTPS and HTTP
1.1.

-- 
Joseph Tate
Personal e-mail: jtate AT dragonstrider DOT com
Web: http://www.dragonstrider.com

From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Apr  5 17:19:38 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:19:38 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Fwd: UG News: Free to Choose Ebook Deal/Day - Save 50% -
 All Head First Ebooks
Message-ID: <4D9B330A.2030007@unc.edu>

So, TriZPUG is part of the O'Reilly User Group Program. That does two 
things. One, it gets you 35% off any purchase through oreilly.com by 
using the discount code shown on the front page of trizpug.org (does it 
work?). Two, it gets me a bunch of spam from O'Reilly.

On very rare occasion, the spam is useful. So I generally sift through 
it to see if today is such a day when the spam is useful.

Today is just such a day. See below for Head First Python 50% off offer:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: UG News: Free to Choose Ebook Deal/Day - Save 50% - All Head 
First Ebooks
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 00:03:49 -0700
From: Marsee Henon & Jon Johns 

Save 50% - Ebook Deal of the Day
*** Free to Choose Your Head First Titles ***

For one day only, you can SAVE 50% on these Head First titles. Use 
discount code DDHDD in the shopping cart. Ebooks from oreilly.com are 
DRM-free. You get free lifetime access, and free updates.

Head First Python
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1zd1uhk8blinbublsg0g5jf40av0bobfpe3resoj0
Was: $39.99
Now: $19.99
Add to Cart: 
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1zkfuc0hambt4nusn1gjvt9vpdnnjbubps8e6f5fo

From dragonstrider at gmail.com  Fri Apr  8 20:19:08 2011
From: dragonstrider at gmail.com (Joseph S. Tate)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 14:19:08 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Job Posting (Python based)
Message-ID: 

Through a friend, Matt contacted me about a new office he's opening in
downtown Durham.  If interested, please contact him using the email/phone at
the bottom.

Wireless Generation is a fast-growing education tech company that
builds data analytics tools to help teachers make better instructional
decisions. Our software is used by hundreds of thousands of teachers,
for 3.3 million students (including K-3 students across North
Carolina), in all 50 states. You can read more about our company here:

http://www.wirelessgeneration.com/

We are growing and planning to open a new engineering and product
development office in downtown Durham. Our NC founding team will help
us launch a new office - a terrific entrepreneurial opportunity. I am
leading our expansion efforts and am building a crack team of
technical, design, and product talent. I've created job descriptions
for several technical roles in the Raleigh Durham area and would love
your help disseminating these to friends and contacts.

Senior Software Developer
http://www.cytiva.com/wgen/details.asp?wgen1591

Applications Architect
http://www.cytiva.com/wgen/details.asp?wgen1589

Data Systems Architect
http://www.cytiva.com/wgen/details.asp?wgen1595

Director of Engineering
http://www.cytiva.com/wgen/details.asp?wgen1594

NoSQL Architect
http://www.cytiva.com/wgen/details.asp?wgen1566

Kind regards,
Matthew

mrascoff at wgen.net / (646) 831 6421
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Sat Apr  9 20:04:31 2011
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:04:31 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] How about a talk on our development methodology?
Message-ID: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>

I've been wanting to put together a presentation on our development 
methodology to help explain it to our users and convey it to other 
developers, but since it's not strictly applicable python, I wasn't sure 
if it would be appropriate for the group.

I can get my slides in order by the meeting, does anyone object to me 
presenting?

Thanks,
JJ

P.S.
If it helps, we've developed a management tool in Plone to assist, I can 
also talk about that :)

-- 
Josh Johnson
Applications Analyst
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

From KGrandis at lexile.com  Mon Apr 11 06:27:33 2011
From: KGrandis at lexile.com (Kurt Grandis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 00:27:33 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] How about a talk on our development methodology?
In-Reply-To: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
References: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE073B6C8357@MM1>

I would be very  interested in learning how other Python groups are working . While my group's development practices are not restricted to Python they have been directly impacted and shaped by the nature of Python. There a few of us who are also interested continuing to refine our processes and tools associated with managing projects (through Python).

So please do...
+1

-Kurt
________________________________________
From: trizpug-bounces+kgrandis=lexile.com at python.org [trizpug-bounces+kgrandis=lexile.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Josh Johnson [josh_johnson at unc.edu]
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 2:04 PM
To: Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group
Subject: [TriZPUG] How about a talk on our development methodology?

I've been wanting to put together a presentation on our development
methodology to help explain it to our users and convey it to other
developers, but since it's not strictly applicable python, I wasn't sure
if it would be appropriate for the group.

I can get my slides in order by the meeting, does anyone object to me
presenting?

Thanks,
JJ

P.S.
If it helps, we've developed a management tool in Plone to assist, I can
also talk about that :)

--
Josh Johnson
Applications Analyst
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
_______________________________________________
TriZPUG mailing list
TriZPUG at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group

From mrevoir at gmail.com  Mon Apr 11 13:58:35 2011
From: mrevoir at gmail.com (Mike Revoir)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:58:35 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] How about a talk on our development methodology?
In-Reply-To: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
References: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Josh Johnson  wrote:

> I can get my slides in order by the meeting, does anyone object to me
> presenting?

+1
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From brad.crittenden at gmail.com  Mon Apr 11 14:14:20 2011
From: brad.crittenden at gmail.com (Bradley A. Crittenden)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:14:20 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] How about a talk on our development methodology?
In-Reply-To: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
References: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4D2378CF-F009-42EC-B684-EB7CE5D4ACC3@gmail.com>

On Apr 9, 2011, at 14:04 , Josh Johnson wrote:

> I've been wanting to put together a presentation on our development methodology to help explain it to our users and convey it to other developers, but since it's not strictly applicable python, I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate for the group.
> 
> I can get my slides in order by the meeting, does anyone object to me presenting?

Sounds very interesting.

> 
> Thanks,
> JJ
> 
> P.S.
> If it helps, we've developed a management tool in Plone to assist, I can also talk about that :)

Yes, please.

From cbc at unc.edu  Mon Apr 11 16:33:29 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:33:29 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] How about a talk on our development methodology?
In-Reply-To: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
References: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DA31139.5060604@unc.edu>

On 4/9/2011 2:04 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:
> I can get my slides in order by the meeting, does anyone object to me
> presenting?

Ah, the sound of the shotgun being cocked.

> If it helps, we've developed a management tool in Plone to assist, I can
> also talk about that :)

We have people from groups working with all kinds of technologies. So 
development methods are us. If you've developed a tool in Plone, we're 
also all about that, too.

So, would you have a two or three sentence blurb to explain what you are 
going to talk about?

And thanks for responding to the call for talks.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Mon Apr 11 17:26:16 2011
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:26:16 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] How about a talk on our development methodology?
In-Reply-To: <4DA31139.5060604@unc.edu>
References: <4DA09FAF.40007@unc.edu> <4DA31139.5060604@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DA31D98.5020906@unc.edu>

On 04/11/2011 10:33 AM, Chris Calloway wrote:
>
> Ah, the sound of the shotgun being cocked.
Yes, I believe very strongly in the shotgun rules, but I thought it 
would be best to solicit a little feedback since I had some qualms about 
the subject.

I tend to forget how awesome of a group we are and was unduly paranoid 
about backlash. :)

Qualms officially squashed.

> So, would you have a two or three sentence blurb to explain what you are
> going to talk about?

I call it "the blitZEN method". It's a SCRUM variant that breaks some 
rules, but has served us really well. We've[1] used it in a group of 2 
primarily but up to 4. I think it would scale up the way SCRUM typically 
does[2], but also scale down to a team of 1, which could be the best 
thing about it (scaling is theoretical right now!). We've also developed 
ways to deal with a variable level of 'Product Owner' participation, 
which happens a lot in the university setting (or, has happened to me a 
lot in that setting).

I think it has applications for independent contractors or collaborative 
groups too. Again, this is mostly theoretical, but I will definitely 
talk about it!

It's flexible by design, sort of a toolbox for keeping your project 
manageable (as opposed to managing your project[3])

The process can be done with paper and pencil (we started out that way), 
but we were able to adapt the process to a Plone product. The plone 
product mirrors the flexibility, and beyond a few assumptions it could 
probably apply to any of the application scenarios. It's in need of a 
billing and MOU-building add-on component(s), but it will still work as 
a way to project initial project costs and convey an understanding of 
requirements to your customer. Plus being plone, it's pretty easy to 
extend or customize if needed.

D'oh, that's more than two or three sentences. This talk may last hours ;)

In short:

------
'the blitZEN method' is a SCRUM-variant toolbox of project management 
approaches that makes you love being a developer again. It's not 
philosophy or methodology so much as it's a way to get stuff done, done 
well, and with minimal developer stress.

I will also present blitzen.management, a Plone product that assists in 
the collection of requirements and planning process.
------

OK, that's three sentences!

Cheers,
JJ

[1]'We' being Rob Lineberger, Mark Biggers, Dave Ray and myself :).

[2] By that I mean it doesn't :) I think the SOP is to use multiple 
smaller teams on a big project, but I'm more about practicality than 
philosophy.

[3] OOOOH I think I just shifted my paradigm! Can you feel the dynamism?

-- 
Josh Johnson
Applications Analyst
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

From cbc at unc.edu  Mon Apr 11 20:41:10 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:41:10 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG April 2011 Meeting: blitzen.management
Message-ID: <4DA34B46.8020504@unc.edu>

http://trizpug.org/Members/bac/apr-11-mtg

What
     Meeting
When
     2011-04-28 from 19:00 to 21:00
Where
     Carrboro Creative Coworking, 205 Lloyd Street, Suite 101, Carrboro

Josh Johnson will present the blitZEN method, a SCRUM-variant toolbox of 
project management approaches that makes you love being a developer 
again. The blitZEN method is not philosophy or methodology so much as 
it's a way to get stuff done, done well, and with minimal developer 
stress. In addition, Josh will also present blitzen.management, a Plone 
product that assists in the collection of requirements and planning 
process. As usual, bring your own lightning talk about any observation 
you've made about any Python topic. There's plenty of free parking at 
CCC and the after-meeting will continue around the corner at Milltown.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From philliposophy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 22:26:53 2011
From: philliposophy at gmail.com (Phillip Bost)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:26:53 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Fwd: [owdna] NCTech4Good Unconference: This Saturday: Of
 possible interest to some out there.
In-Reply-To: <4DA4B30E.7050806@duke.edu>
References: <4DA4B30E.7050806@duke.edu>
Message-ID: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kelly Jarrett, DISC 
Date: Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 4:16 PM
Subject: [owdna] NCTech4Good Unconference: This Saturday: Of possible
interest to some out there.
To: owdNA 
Cc: Ruby Sinreich 

Neighbors:
Some of you might be interested in this event, which is on Saturday at the
Franklin Humanities Institute (in the Smith Warehouse Building just off Main
& Buchanan).

Reply to Ruby Sinreich above for more information.

Kelly
-------- Original Message --------

Hey neighbors, I?m writing to let you know about an event this Saturday
hosted by HASTAC at Duke's Franklin Humanities Institute.  It?s an
unconference for people interested in using technology (of any kind) to help
communities and nonprofit organizations. (What?s an unconference? See
http://nctech4good.org/node/97.)

Last year the NCTech4Good Conference, which serves nonprofit techies from
across North Carolina, decided to add an unconference to their 2011
statewide gathering. It?s going to be Saturday (4/16) here in Smith
Warehouse. More details are at http://nctech4good.org/wiki. Registration is
$10, but this can be waived for almost any interested participant.

The unconference is a new idea for many, but one with great potential -
especially for engaging and connecting participants. We want to make sure
it?s a success by getting a good blend of leaders and learners, programmers
and activists, geeks and newbies. I thought that you and other folks in your
communities would be interested in attending and also spreading the word
about the event.

Do you think you might be able to tweet about this and e-mail it to your
contacts? There is more information about the event at
http://nctech4good.org/blog. The hashtag for the conference and unconference
is #nct4g and it also has a Facebook event (
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=158496870872636) to make it easy to
share.

Contact me (ruby.s at duke.edu) if you would like more information or want a
scholarship to attend.  I hope you see you here on Saturday!

= Ruby

-- 
Ruby Sinreich, Director of New Media Strategy
HASTAC & Digital Media and Learning Competition
web: http://HASTAC.org 
e-mail: ruby.s at duke.edu
IM: rs178 at jabber.duke.edu
phone: 919-883-5224

-- 
Dr. Kelly Jarrett
Associate Director, Duke Islamic Studies Center and
Duke University Middle East Studies Center
2204 Erwin Road, Box 90402
Duke University
Durham, NC 27708
919/ 668-2143kjj1 at duke.eduhttp://www.jhfc.duke.edu/disc/http://www.jhfc.duke.edu/mideast/

 __._,_.___
 Reply to sender|
Reply
to group|
Reply
via web post|
Start
a New Topic
Messages in this
topic(
1)
Recent Activity:

   - New Members
   2

Visit Your Group
 *** A neighborly note: if you intend to reply to an individual who has
posted (but don't intend it to go to the listserv), make sure that you have
the recipient's email address in your "TO:" line and not "
owdna at yahoogroups.com". Thanks! ***
[image: Yahoo! Groups]
Switch to: Text-Only,
Daily Digest  ?
Unsubscribe  ? Terms
of Use 
  .

__,_._,___
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From list at rascoff.com  Wed Apr 13 23:16:27 2011
From: list at rascoff.com (Matthew Rascoff)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:16:27 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Techworking with NCTA
Message-ID: 

This NCTA event tomorrow night in Raleigh may be of interest. I intend
to be there.

Kind regards,
Matthew

--

Techworking with NCTA- RTP

Starts:	 Thursday April 14, 2011, 05:30PM EDT
Ends:	 Thursday April 14, 2011, 07:30PM EDT

Location:	 Hotel Sierra
10962 Chapel Hill Rd
Raleigh, NC 27560 US

Website:	http://www.nctechnology.org/membership/rtp_techworking.aspx

Organization:	North Carolina Technology Association

What is Tech-work-ing [tek-wur-king]?

Noun ? The North Carolina Technology Association?s latest addition to
the North Carolina tech community. An informal gathering to bring
together NCTA members and the statewide tech community at large.

Verb ? Connecting with technology professionals for the betterment of
the North Carolina business community.

The North Carolina Technology Association (NCTA) is launching a new
networking event for the technology community that will be held at
various locations all across the state. We call it Techworking with
NCTA and the first event in the Raleigh area will be next Thursday,
April 14th from 5:30 ? 7:30PM at Hotel Sierra. NCTA Board Members and
NCTA Ambassadors will be the hosts for this networking event focused
on bringing further value to the technology community within RTP and
the surrounding region. The event is free to attend for NCTA members
and guests though they need you to RSVP for planning purposes.

From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Fri Apr 15 20:29:29 2011
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:29:29 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and why?
Message-ID: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>

I'm on the cusp of releasing a bunch of software that we've developed 
over the past couple of years here in the blitzen group.

So I'm at the point where I'm choosing a license.

I consulted UNC's office of legal council about this, and they said that 
campus is cool with whatever license we decide to use, as long as it has 
a 'no implied warranty/non-liability' disclaimer. (not in those exact 
words, of course :D)

So, we've got a lot of options.

I'm just curious what folks in the area are using, have used in the 
past, and any personal anecdotes regarding how it went over time.

I'm indifferent as far as virality, restrictions on reuse, providing 
source, commercialization, etc.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on any licensing strategies 
you've tried; starting a philosophical debate, not so much. :)

Thanks!
JJ

-- 
Josh Johnson
Applications Analyst
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

From brad.crittenden at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 20:53:03 2011
From: brad.crittenden at gmail.com (Bradley A. Crittenden)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:53:03 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
	why?
In-Reply-To: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <3766DAFF-CE28-4DFC-AF7F-C4D14140D78A@gmail.com>

On Apr 15, 2011, at 14:29 , Josh Johnson wrote:

> I'm on the cusp of releasing a bunch of software that we've developed over the past couple of years here in the blitzen group.
> 
> So I'm at the point where I'm choosing a license.
> 
> I consulted UNC's office of legal council about this, and they said that campus is cool with whatever license we decide to use, as long as it has a 'no implied warranty/non-liability' disclaimer. (not in those exact words, of course :D)
> 
> So, we've got a lot of options.
> 
> I'm just curious what folks in the area are using, have used in the past, and any personal anecdotes regarding how it went over time.
> 
> I'm indifferent as far as virality, restrictions on reuse, providing source, commercialization, etc.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on any licensing strategies you've tried; starting a philosophical debate, not so much. :)

My advice is to first realize that the license is a contract and if you want it to be enforceable it needs to be airtight and tested.  If you are not an IP lawyer you probably should not be writing licenses.  You wouldn't believe how many people attempt to write their own licenses and end up making a big mess of it.

Your subject says "open source licenses" but then the list of things you say you don't care about are contradictory to recognized open source licensing.  Specifically I'd look at the definitions provided by the Open Source Initiative at http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd and try to pick one that is approved.

If you are releasing web app code you may want to consider Affero GPL as it requires derivative works to be made available even if they are not distributed.

I hope you'll post again when your work is released.  It is nice that UNC makes it somewhat easy for you.

--Brad

From chris at archimedeanco.com  Fri Apr 15 20:55:00 2011
From: chris at archimedeanco.com (Chris Rossi)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:55:00 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
	why?
In-Reply-To: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Josh Johnson  wrote:

> I'm on the cusp of releasing a bunch of software that we've developed over
> the past couple of years here in the blitzen group.
>
> So I'm at the point where I'm choosing a license.
>
> I consulted UNC's office of legal council about this, and they said that
> campus is cool with whatever license we decide to use, as long as it has a
> 'no implied warranty/non-liability' disclaimer. (not in those exact words,
> of course :D)
>
> So, we've got a lot of options.
>
> I'm just curious what folks in the area are using, have used in the past,
> and any personal anecdotes regarding how it went over time.
>
> I'm indifferent as far as virality, restrictions on reuse, providing
> source, commercialization, etc.
>
> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on any licensing strategies you've
> tried; starting a philosophical debate, not so much. :)
>
>
I tend to use BSD these days.  It is the least restrictive of all.  Pretty
much anybody can use it for whatever they want.  They just have to give
attribution and can't change the license for your code.  If a customer needs
me to build something for them that they want to keep closed source, then
using BSD licensed code still works.  (This doesn't tend to happen in
practice, as these customers simply use the code internally to provide a
service as opposed to releasing their software for distribution--even GPL
works fine for this, if you don't distribute the software.)  At any rate,
it's just the easiest for me, as its open source as a practical means of
getting things done, as opposed to an ideology.

Chris
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From pmclanahan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 21:27:27 2011
From: pmclanahan at gmail.com (Paul McLanahan)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:27:27 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
	why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>

Message-ID: 

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Chris Rossi  wrote:
> I tend to use BSD these days. ?It is the least restrictive of all. ?Pretty
> much anybody can use it for whatever they want. ?They just have to give
> attribution and can't change the license for your code. ?If a customer needs
> me to build something for them that they want to keep closed source, then
> using BSD licensed code still works. ?(This doesn't tend to happen in
> practice, as these customers simply use the code internally to provide a
> service as opposed to releasing their software for distribution--even GPL
> works fine for this, if you don't distribute the software.) ?At any rate,
> it's just the easiest for me, as its open source as a practical means of
> getting things done, as opposed to an ideology.

I also like BSD [0] or MIT [1], but mostly BSD. They're just there to
indemnify you from any liability and to make sure anyone can do
anything with the code except claim they wrote it. I've found that the
lack of restrictions on use encourage adoption and contribution.

Paul

[0] http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php
[1] http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.html

From ncdave4life at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 21:50:40 2011
From: ncdave4life at gmail.com (David Burton)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:50:40 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
	why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>

Message-ID: 

Here's what I put in the Perl source code for my
DBF2CSV v.8
tool, to convert .dbf database files to .csv (comma-separated values) or
.json (JavaScript Object Notation) text files:

# This program is uncopyrighted, so do with it whatever you wish.
# By Dave Burton, Burton Systems Software, POB 4157, Cary, NC 27519-4157.
# email: http://www.burtonsys.com/email/

# The latest version of DBF2CSV can always be found on the Burton
# Systems Software web site, in the "downloads" area:
# http://www.burtonsys.com/

*{...version history omitted...}*

# This program is uncopyrighted, so it can be modified by anyone who
# wants to.  But, out of courtesy, please add your own name and what
# you did to the history, and do not remove the previous history.
# -DAB
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Fri Apr 15 21:52:59 2011
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:52:59 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
 why?
In-Reply-To: <3766DAFF-CE28-4DFC-AF7F-C4D14140D78A@gmail.com>
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>
	<3766DAFF-CE28-4DFC-AF7F-C4D14140D78A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA8A21B.3020802@unc.edu>

On 04/15/2011 02:53 PM, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote:
>
> My advice is to first realize that the license is a contract and if you want it to be enforceable it needs to be airtight and tested.  If you are not an IP lawyer you probably should not be writing licenses.
My contact at the office of legal council offered to look over anything 
we're considering, but it's not required. That said, I have no intention 
of writing my own, I think there's a lot of really good options that 
exist already.
>
> Your subject says "open source licenses" but then the list of things you say you don't care about are contradictory to recognized open source licensing.
I guess what I was trying to get across is I didn't want to talk about 
the open source movement, just licensing source code so people could use it.

I read somewhere (can't find the ref right now :/) that code *must* be 
licensed in one way or another or people aren't allowed, legally, to use 
it. That, coupled with the liability requirement, are my main 
motivations at this point.

Whether someone is not allowed to create commercial derivatives, is 
required to license derivative work in a similar way, attribute credit, 
be technology-neutral, etc, are more tangential at this point.

They are concerns, however. I do care about these things. I was just 
trying to avoid IP policy debates.

> I hope you'll post again when your work is released.  It is nice that UNC makes it somewhat easy for you.

Definitely. I was pleasantly surprised with the process.

Two of the apps in question are the management tool I'm presenting on at 
the next meeting, and the core facility management app I'm presenting at 
the Plone Symposium East this year.

I've also got buildout recipes and a micorarray data library, and we're 
going to have some WSGI middleware as a byproduct of the mouse colony 
database we're developing right now.

I'm going to do write ups in my blog and will make announcements on the 
list as they get released.

Thanks!
JJ

-- 
Josh Johnson
Applications Analyst
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
(919) 923-0894

From jamie.daniel at duke.edu  Fri Apr 15 22:01:58 2011
From: jamie.daniel at duke.edu (Jamie Daniel)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:01:58 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Jamie Daniel is out of the office
Message-ID: 

I will be out of the office starting  04/12/2011 and will not return until
04/25/2011.

From jim at ibang.com  Fri Apr 15 23:27:42 2011
From: jim at ibang.com (Jim Allman)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:27:42 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
	why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>

Message-ID: 

On Apr 15, 2011, at 2:55 PM, Chris Rossi wrote:
> I tend to use BSD these days.  It is the least restrictive of all.  Pretty much anybody can use it for whatever they want.  They just have to give attribution and can't change the license for your code.  

+1 for BSD license (or MIT/X license, which omits the attribution requirement). Both are short and sweet.

Assuming, that is, that you don't mind your work being incorporated into close-source or commercial products.

  =jimA=

From philip at semanchuk.com  Fri Apr 15 23:50:01 2011
From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:50:01 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
	why?
In-Reply-To: <3766DAFF-CE28-4DFC-AF7F-C4D14140D78A@gmail.com>
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>
	<3766DAFF-CE28-4DFC-AF7F-C4D14140D78A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6FDFBB71-1309-4420-872E-4BCB9E25AA24@semanchuk.com>

On Apr 15, 2011, at 2:53 PM, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote:

> 
> On Apr 15, 2011, at 14:29 , Josh Johnson wrote:
> 
>> I'm on the cusp of releasing a bunch of software that we've developed over the past couple of years here in the blitzen group.
>> 
>> So I'm at the point where I'm choosing a license.
>> 
>> I consulted UNC's office of legal council about this, and they said that campus is cool with whatever license we decide to use, as long as it has a 'no implied warranty/non-liability' disclaimer. (not in those exact words, of course :D)
>> 
>> So, we've got a lot of options.
>> 
>> I'm just curious what folks in the area are using, have used in the past, and any personal anecdotes regarding how it went over time.
>> 
>> I'm indifferent as far as virality, restrictions on reuse, providing source, commercialization, etc.
>> 
>> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on any licensing strategies you've tried; starting a philosophical debate, not so much. :)
> 
> My advice is to first realize that the license is a contract and if you want it to be enforceable it needs to be airtight and tested.  If you are not an IP lawyer you probably should not be writing licenses.  You wouldn't believe how many people attempt to write their own licenses and end up making a big mess of it.

+1 

To the OP -- if you use a BSD license, note that just calling it a "BSD" license is slightly ambiguous. There exists a "three-clause" BSD license that's newer and slightly less restrictive than the four-clause BSD license.

bye
Philip

From j.c.sackett at gmail.com  Sat Apr 16 01:48:24 2011
From: j.c.sackett at gmail.com (j.c.sackett)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:48:24 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Open-Source Licenses - what do you like to use and
 why?
In-Reply-To: <6FDFBB71-1309-4420-872E-4BCB9E25AA24@semanchuk.com>
References: <4DA88E89.8020205@unc.edu>
	<3766DAFF-CE28-4DFC-AF7F-C4D14140D78A@gmail.com>
	<6FDFBB71-1309-4420-872E-4BCB9E25AA24@semanchuk.com>
Message-ID: 

To the OP -- if you use a BSD license, note that just calling it a "BSD" license is slightly ambiguous. There exists a "three-clause" BSD license that's newer and slightly less restrictive than the four-clause BSD license.
> 

I'll throw in a +1 for the three clause BSD[1]; that's one I've used before, and for me it had the desired effects of 1) getting some people to use it and 2) getting some contributions back. At this point I think the three clause one is the default if you refer to something as BSD licensed.

//j.c.sackett

[1]: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From cbc at unc.edu  Wed Apr 20 18:09:03 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:09:03 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or
	Pyramid	(Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <4D9A2771.7090102@unc.edu>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>	<6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
	<4D9A2771.7090102@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DAF051F.6000504@unc.edu>

On 4/4/2011 4:17 PM, Chris Calloway wrote:
> On 4/4/2011 2:18 PM, Johnson, Josh wrote:
>> Heck, I'm tempted to just use WSGI and >maybe< WebOb.
>
> Then this is the framework for you:
>
> http://bobo.digicool.com/
>
> Seriously.

Dang, I forgot about another entry into the anti-framework contest:

https://github.com/malthe/otto#readme

Otto was the fun topic at PloneCon 2009. It does traversal really well. 
For instance:

http://localhost:8080/repr/math/pi

results in:

3.1415926535897931

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From jj at email.unc.edu  Wed Apr 20 20:27:49 2011
From: jj at email.unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:27:49 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django
	or	Pyramid	(Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <4DAF051F.6000504@unc.edu>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>	<6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>	<4D9A2771.7090102@unc.edu>
	<4DAF051F.6000504@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DAF25A5.3070409@email.unc.edu>

Good find! I hadn't heard of that, I like WebOb, and having traversal as 
an option is pretty cool, two of the many reasons I was attracted to 
Pyramid.

I need to do a write up of where we're at now and how we got there. The 
short term answer is at the moment we're using WerkZueg, jinja2 
templates, mongodb and not much else, and it's pretty sweet.

We're still in the R&D phase, but we should begin the design phase soon, 
and hopefully be doing the first development sprint in the next week or 
two. I think a good output for this stage of the project would be some 
academic assessments of the tools we're using. We're already planning to 
do some write ups of how using a document-based data model compares 
(apples to apples, best we can) to established relational ones. I think 
doing the same for our tool set will be a worthy endeavor.

I think I may do some side-by-side comparisons between Otto and WerkZeug 
and write that up as well. From my first glances it seems to fit the 
same problem domain as WerkZeug, but it uses WebOb instead of it's own 
Request/Response wrapper (I'm pretty sure WerkZeug is not using WebOb 
under the hood), and that sweet-sweet traversal I've come to love from 
doing Zope work (without all the Acquisition Aftertaste)

Thanks!
JJ

On 4/20/2011 12:09 PM, Chris Calloway wrote:
> On 4/4/2011 4:17 PM, Chris Calloway wrote:
>> On 4/4/2011 2:18 PM, Johnson, Josh wrote:
>>> Heck, I'm tempted to just use WSGI and >maybe< WebOb.
>>
>> Then this is the framework for you:
>>
>> http://bobo.digicool.com/
>>
>> Seriously.
>
> Dang, I forgot about another entry into the anti-framework contest:
>
> https://github.com/malthe/otto#readme
>
> Otto was the fun topic at PloneCon 2009. It does traversal really 
> well. For instance:
>
> http://localhost:8080/repr/math/pi
>
> results in:
>
> 3.1415926535897931
>

From chris at archimedeanco.com  Wed Apr 20 23:07:01 2011
From: chris at archimedeanco.com (Chris Rossi)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:07:01 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Wanted: Biased Opinions: Django or Pyramid
	(Pylons/BFG)?
In-Reply-To: <4DAF25A5.3070409@email.unc.edu>
References: <4D91DBC1.4020700@unc.edu>
	<6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E1FF893@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu>
	<4D9A2771.7090102@unc.edu> <4DAF051F.6000504@unc.edu>
	<4DAF25A5.3070409@email.unc.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Josh Johnson  wrote:

> Good find! I hadn't heard of that, I like WebOb, and having traversal as an
> option is pretty cool, two of the many reasons I was attracted to Pyramid.
>
> I need to do a write up of where we're at now and how we got there. The
> short term answer is at the moment we're using WerkZueg, jinja2 templates,
> mongodb and not much else, and it's pretty sweet.
>
> We're still in the R&D phase, but we should begin the design phase soon,
> and hopefully be doing the first development sprint in the next week or two.
> I think a good output for this stage of the project would be some academic
> assessments of the tools we're using. We're already planning to do some
> write ups of how using a document-based data model compares (apples to
> apples, best we can) to established relational ones. I think doing the same
> for our tool set will be a worthy endeavor.
>
> I think I may do some side-by-side comparisons between Otto and WerkZeug
> and write that up as well. From my first glances it seems to fit the same
> problem domain as WerkZeug, but it uses WebOb instead of it's own
> Request/Response wrapper (I'm pretty sure WerkZeug is not using WebOb under
> the hood), and that sweet-sweet traversal I've come to love from doing Zope
> work (without all the Acquisition Aftertaste)
>
> If you're interested in some widgets in a library that don't assume a
framework, there's also happy:

https://bitbucket.org/chrisrossi/happy

I viewed it primarily as an experiment but everything in there works and has
100% test coverage.  There are dispatchers in there for doing both traversal
and routes.

Chris
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From brad.crittenden at canonical.com  Thu Apr 21 13:14:01 2011
From: brad.crittenden at canonical.com (Brad Crittenden)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:14:01 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Inadvertent Plone Plug
Message-ID: 

Check out the branding being used by several WUNC podcasts in iTunes.  Oops.

--bac

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: wunc-plone.png
Type: image/png
Size: 628255 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Apr 26 21:48:21 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:48:21 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] The Original Zope BBQ
Message-ID: <4DB72185.9090907@unc.edu>

I was stunned today to find that the Zope and BBQ connection was not 
invented by TriZPUG. Here's an announcement from 2002 for the "Zope BBQ" 
in Berlin:

http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/gB3ldzHkTZwqJ9dw67hz

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From cbc at unc.edu  Thu Apr 28 18:22:23 2011
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:22:23 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Reminder: TriZPUG April 2011 Meeting: blitzen.management
In-Reply-To: <4DA34B46.8020504@unc.edu>
References: <4DA34B46.8020504@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DB9943F.5040105@unc.edu>

Reminder, meeting tonight. See below.

Two changes:

1) David Ray will be playing the role of Josh Johnson.

2) The after-meeting will switch to The Crunkleton because our 
facilitator, Brad Crittenden, is hosting the Ubuntu release party there 
after our main meeting. The Crunkleton does not serve food, so get 
dinner ahead of time of the TriZPUG meeting. Me, I'll be getting some 
dinner at Milltown before the meeting. maybe around 5:30 if I'm lucky.

On 4/11/2011 2:41 PM, Chris Calloway wrote:
> http://trizpug.org/Members/bac/apr-11-mtg
>
> What
> Meeting
> When
> 2011-04-28 from 19:00 to 21:00
> Where
> Carrboro Creative Coworking, 205 Lloyd Street, Suite 101, Carrboro
>
> Josh Johnson will present the blitZEN method, a SCRUM-variant toolbox of
> project management approaches that makes you love being a developer
> again. The blitZEN method is not philosophy or methodology so much as
> it's a way to get stuff done, done well, and with minimal developer
> stress. In addition, Josh will also present blitzen.management, a Plone
> product that assists in the collection of requirements and planning
> process. As usual, bring your own lightning talk about any observation
> you've made about any Python topic. There's plenty of free parking at
> CCC and the after-meeting will continue around the corner at Milltown.
>

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From tobias at caktusgroup.com  Thu Apr 28 23:59:58 2011
From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:59:58 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] Reminder: TriZPUG April 2011 Meeting:
	blitzen.management
In-Reply-To: <4DB9943F.5040105@unc.edu>
References: <4DA34B46.8020504@unc.edu>
	<4DB9943F.5040105@unc.edu>
Message-ID: 

I'm here at Milltown with Jim Allman. We're out back on the patio.

Tobias

Sent from my Nexus One.
On Apr 28, 2011 12:26 PM, "Chris Calloway"  wrote:
> Reminder, meeting tonight. See below.
>
> Two changes:
>
> 1) David Ray will be playing the role of Josh Johnson.
>
> 2) The after-meeting will switch to The Crunkleton because our
> facilitator, Brad Crittenden, is hosting the Ubuntu release party there
> after our main meeting. The Crunkleton does not serve food, so get
> dinner ahead of time of the TriZPUG meeting. Me, I'll be getting some
> dinner at Milltown before the meeting. maybe around 5:30 if I'm lucky.
>
> On 4/11/2011 2:41 PM, Chris Calloway wrote:
>> http://trizpug.org/Members/bac/apr-11-mtg
>>
>> What
>> Meeting
>> When
>> 2011-04-28 from 19:00 to 21:00
>> Where
>> Carrboro Creative Coworking, 205 Lloyd Street, Suite 101, Carrboro
>>
>> Josh Johnson will present the blitZEN method, a SCRUM-variant toolbox of
>> project management approaches that makes you love being a developer
>> again. The blitZEN method is not philosophy or methodology so much as
>> it's a way to get stuff done, done well, and with minimal developer
>> stress. In addition, Josh will also present blitzen.management, a Plone
>> product that assists in the collection of requirements and planning
>> process. As usual, bring your own lightning talk about any observation
>> you've made about any Python topic. There's plenty of free parking at
>> CCC and the after-meeting will continue around the corner at Milltown.
>>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
> office: 3313 Venable Hall phone: (919) 599-3530
> mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599
> _______________________________________________
> TriZPUG mailing list
> TriZPUG at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
> http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From FDimauro at unch.unc.edu  Fri Apr 29 20:46:56 2011
From: FDimauro at unch.unc.edu (Dimauro, Frank)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:46:56 -0400
Subject: [TriZPUG] good news for content mgmt system admins
Message-ID: 

As quoted in current issue of InformationWeek magazine:

"Content management skills are in high demand at a lot of companies, it seems. Our salary survey found that managers in charge of enterprise content management top the pay list, with median pay of $136,000. That's a 24% leap from the $110,000 in 2010, so we'll have to watch whether that growth trend lasts. But it fits with the fact that companies are becoming more dependent on digital content, for goals ranging from personalizing marketing campaigns to doing deeper analytics. 
? 
In contrast, data center management jobs are further down the pay scale, as companies need fewer people to run IT infrastructure because of increased automation and cloud computing."... 
? 
http://informationweek.com/news/global-cio/careers/229401609?pgno=1 

Frank DiMauro