[TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting

[Chris Calloway]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:02:29 -0500, Paul McLanahan <pmclanahan at gmail.com>
wrote:
>I do still think that with the popularity of Django these days among
people who aren't necessarily "Python people," 

I know enough Django to know there's no way you can do Django and not be a
Python person of some kind.

> But I also agree with a lot of what Chris brought up in reference to the
current state of the Django community and their chosen isolation. 

Chris Johnson asked if there is a Plone "subgroup" within TriZPUG. There
isn't. Plone people within TriZPUG participate with all the Python stuff
and all the talk about other frameworks, and when they need to do their own
thing, they just go sprint with themselves or have lunch or coctails or
whatever. Plone folks are first class TriZPUG citizens and we'd like Django
folks to assume the same. We're against software ghettos.

When I look at what's going on with separate Plone or Django user groups in
other cities, I see people who are always having to make special efforts to
reach out and connect or coordinate with their local Python communities
instead of being a prima facie part of those Python communities.

Chris Rossi came with me to a Plone Conference in DC a year ago. Mark Ramm
was there. Chris was amazed that a major TurboGears luminary was at a Plone
Conference. But, of course, Mark was there as part of the greater WSGI
collective of Python web frameworks and works on a number of projects with
Zope people. Plone people love Mark Ramm. One of the reasons we love him is
because he gets it when it comes to Python web frameworks and working
together. And within a few days, Chris himself was off working on a
different Python web framework, BFG, that he learned about at the Plone
Conference Sprint from a guy who works with Mark Ramm all the time. And
then Chris spent the next year making a living with BFG.

There were a number of sprints on other Python web frameworks at the most
recent Plone Conference just last week. There are Python people who don't
do web work at all but who come to Plone Conference because there is a lot
of cool Python going on there.

That's the way Python web frameworks are supposed to work. Together. With
each other. Each with its own use case. If your use case is a bespoke site
with an RDBMS store that implements a recipe box style application (the
Rails sweet spot, but in Python), then Django is probably one of a few good
choices. The Python web professionals among us want to have that solution
available to us with the same kind of community we are already used to with
other Python web frameworks. The new hotness is Plone as a content
management back-end to a Django presentation front-end.

Still, the Law of Two Feet applies. If people feel that they need Django in
a name of something in order to participate in it, then it will happen. I
just hope they know they will be creating a new software ghetto, which will
soon have two jobs instead of one (Django and connecting with another
community), will have the added burden of maintaining yet another
communications and meeting infrastructure, will probably lose some valuable
participation from TriZPUG people who don't have time for both, and will
probably deprive TriZPUG of some Django wisdom it wants and needs.

I think the best way to get Django people participating in TriZPUG is for
the Django people in TriZPUG, or Django people who say they will be
participating in TriZPUG, to start making a lot of Django noise in TriZPUG.
We know from experience that you can get the word out on the street that
TriZPUG is the place to meet people who do Python web framework X simply by
doing it at TriZPUG. We know that formula works.

> And if you are really serious about wanting all of the Django talk, tech
question threads, and general template, AJAX, HTML, CSS, jQuery (web) stuff
kept on the TriZPUG list, then I'll be more than happy to be the first to
point people on the TriDjUG list to this one for more help with their
questions. 

We already have that. Django is not special in that regard. All Python web
frameworks deal with those things. Bring it on. You might be amazed at what
people here are already doing with those things. Did you know that Plone
originated an Ajax framework with CSS-like syntax and has been sharing it
with Django people (http://kssproject.org/)? You would if you have been
coming to TriZPUG meetings because we've had two meetings about it. And
certainly people here would benefit from knowing what Django people are
doing with those things. There's nothing that's pure Python. Python is just
a means to an end to manipulate other things like HTML and CSS and web
requests of all kinds. In fact, that's what Python is used for probably
ninety percent of the time. The pure Python user group would be pretty
boring.

I want to see those Django questions. There are already a load of Django
people on this list. They are probably waiting for you to say something
Django. And I want to hear those Django talks. Since we started talking
about this, I'm still waiting for someone to call shotgun on a Django talk
at a TriZPUG meeting. It's harder than you might think.

Anyway, if you go the sense that you are being welcomed and even sought
after, then you got the right message. I think TriZPUG would be much less
of a user group without Django citizens. I think that's what we are really
saying.

The only caveat I would offer is that most web framework questions on this
list are usually better being asked on the list for the whole worldwide
community of that framework. That is, a Plone question stands a much better
chance of getting a good answer on the Plone-users list, where there are
many more Plone experts, than on the TriZPUG list, where there are only a
few wannabe experts. :) The user group is more for sharing what you are
doing with Python in hopes of finding like minded people than for using as
free consulting. There are few enough of us here in the consulting
business, much less the free consulting business. Most of us have some sort
of applied Python job. And in order to provide free consulting, we have to
stop doing that job and research questions instead. If someone here knows
the answer to a question, it is usually by coincidence of having had the
same problem before, or because a consultant sees the question and treats
it as marketing opportunity to make a new friend. The smaller the group of
people those kinds of questions are presented to, the less likely the
question will find an answer. But from time to time, we have been able to
help each other with some questions. Certainly having more people to answer
them locally helps.

Cheers, Chris