[TriZPUG] name

Tue Nov 10 02:37:00 CET 2009

How do you all actually organize around the different tools (for
example, Plone). Is it like a subgroup? If so, then a python-based
name makes sense.

Just another idea for naming... TriPy?

-c

On 11/9/09, trizpug-request at python.org <trizpug-request at python.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Can we change our name? (Gary Poster)
>    2. Re: Can we change our name? (Josh Johnson)
>    3. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Josh Johnson)
>    4. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Paul Smith)
>    5. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Gary Poster)
>    6. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Chris Calloway)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:50:30 -0500
> From: Gary Poster <gary.poster at gmail.com>
> To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group"
> 	<trizpug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name?
> Message-ID: <581BF008-0638-423D-A561-9D1913AAFD65 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the
>> 'Z' from the name of this group.  I understand there's already a
>> TriPUG that's PHP developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of
>> what to call ourselves, but I think emphasizing that the group is
>> about Python programming not just Zope or Plone or even web
>> programming.  I know it's hard to believe, but we've had some
>> interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web.  There are
>> actually other problem domains out there.
>>
>> So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire
>> Python ecosystem?  TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a
>> ring to it.
>
> I like the idea of changing the name, myself, though the name choice
> is just fun to me.  It can be more important to people and companies
> providing consulting services, as one of the Django posts mentioned.
> I'm content to go along with what the group decides.
>
> I do want Chris Calloway's desires to feed into this heavily.  He
> deserves it, for his incredible energy in the group.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:19:06 -0500
> From: Josh Johnson <josh_johnson at unc.edu>
> To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group"
> 	<trizpug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name?
> Message-ID: <ED3EA9A2-7CA6-49D5-9BCB-A350B7574F95 at unc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Where did that Z come from in the first place? I always assumed it was
> to let people know it was OK to talk about Zope ;)
>
> Maybe TriPPUG (Triangle Python Pimps? Triangle Power Python? Triangle
> Python People? Triangle Party Posers? Triangle Pretty Ponies?) :D
>
> JJ
>
> On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the
>> 'Z' from the name of this group.  I understand there's already a
>> TriPUG that's PHP developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of
>> what to call ourselves, but I think emphasizing that the group is
>> about Python programming not just Zope or Plone or even web
>> programming.  I know it's hard to believe, but we've had some
>> interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web.  There are
>> actually other problem domains out there.
>>
>> So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire
>> Python ecosystem?  TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a
>> ring to it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chris
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TriZPUG mailing list
>> TriZPUG at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
>> http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:24:41 -0500
> From: Josh Johnson <josh_johnson at unc.edu>
> To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group"
> 	<trizpug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting
> Message-ID: <ECC27C0C-138B-4A1D-839B-37488188EC4F at unc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> I'm sorry if that came off sounding crass, I didn't mean to imply you
> were being this way, it's just a general feeling I get whenever this
> topic comes up.
>
> My point is even though you might be doing Django and I might be doing
> Plone, we should be able to talk about what we're doing and not be
> bored (or worry about boring anyone).
>
> And of course it's a given that, regardless of what web platform we
> use, we should be able to drink and eat together :P
>
> I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and
> why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but
> that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P
>
> JJ
>
> On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Paul McLanahan wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Josh Johnson <josh_johnson at unc.edu>
>> wrote:
>>> I kind of resent the idea that people who know Plone/Zope aren't
>>> interested
>>> in Django and vice-versa. My interest in this group has always been
>>> python
>>> first, and congregating with other python people second.
>>
>> I'm really sorry if this discussion is coming off like that. I haven't
>> read anything that would lead me to think that was the suggestion. In
>> my mind, this really is only about having a group with the word
>> "Django" in the name so that more people can find the Triangle Python
>> community. Like I said earlier, I think people would come to TriZPUG
>> from a TriDjUG, and that no one who's serious about Python would leave
>> the TriZPUG. I know for a fact that this is true for those who would
>> like to see this new group do well, myself included.
>>
>> Paul
>> _______________________________________________
>> TriZPUG mailing list
>> TriZPUG at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
>> http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:43:24 -0500
> From: Paul Smith <paul at blinkylights.org>
> To: "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group"
> 	<trizpug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting
> Message-ID: <4AF87EEC.2050201 at blinkylights.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Josh Johnson wrote:
>>
>> I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and
>> why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but
>> that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P
>>
>> JJ
>>
>
>     I nominate Josh as automatic door-prize winner at the next meeting
> for no other reason than invoking Depeche Mode during a conversation
> about Python. Can a brother get a +1?
>
> --P
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:46:15 -0500
> From: Gary Poster <gary.poster at gmail.com>
> To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group"
> 	<trizpug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting
> Message-ID: <5F16D6C3-0641-4A06-8604-42C8A00D131D at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Paul Smith wrote:
>
>> Josh Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and
>>> why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but
>>> that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P
>>>
>>> JJ
>>>
>>
>>    I nominate Josh as automatic door-prize winner at the next meeting
>> for no other reason than invoking Depeche Mode during a conversation
>> about Python. Can a brother get a +1?
>
> LOL
>
> +1
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:35:29 -0500
> From: Chris Calloway <cbc at unc.edu>
> To: "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group"
> 	<trizpug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting
> Message-ID: <ce7ba62820ba1fb3c43b0f35e17ea5ea at email.unc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:06:02 -0500, Chris Rossi
> <chris at christophermrossi.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Gary Poster <gary.poster at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote:
>
>>>> So, please sign up if you're interested and, once we reach a critical
> mass, we'll schedule an initial meeting and make a plan for the group.
>
>>> Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to see a
> split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified
> TriPUG.
>
>> +1
>
> You guys really know how to welcome someone back to work after three
> weeks away. :)
>
> I know there's a tendency to say, hey, let's not "split" up. But I would
> suggest that this is more about expanding than splitting. I have joined the
> TriDJUG Google Group and look forward to the first meeting.
>
> I have all the same concerns I'm sure many of us do, that is:
>
> 1) TriZPUG has had programs and solicits programs for all things Python,
> including Python web frameworks, libraries, and products. We've had
> presentations on Django, TurboGears, Pylons, BFG, Repoze, and of course
> Zope and Plone.
>
> 2) About one quarter of all the meetings we've ever had have been at a
> local Django development firm.
>
> 3) We have two members working furiously on hosting a TriZPUG Django Boot
> Camp and have had informal organizational meetings to further that.
>
> 4) We established ourselves on meetup.com so that we could make sure the
> keyword "Django" had some representation in the Triangle, among other
> things. We did this in hopes Django people would start coming to TriZPUG.
>
> 5) We have had more solicitation amongst ourselves for Django presentations
> at our meetings than any other topic. We'd really like to have more Django
> presentations at TriZPUG than have to go to yet another meeting.
>
> 6) It's never a good thing for a Python web framework's community to work
> in isolation from other Python web frameworks, libraries, and products. The
> Python web community is working towards a holistic Python web ecology
> instead of separate silos. I just came back from Plone Conference where
> there were talks about how Django and Plone work together. Joel Burton just
> gave the PyCon New Zealand keynote this week entitled, "Why Python Web
> Frameworks are Changing the Web," and it was all about how Python is
> becoming just one big web library instead of a bunch of framework silos.
>
> 7) The only Python web framework which seems to have trouble with this idea
> of web ecology is Django. It is brittle and doesn't play well with
> pluggable components. Whenever this is pointed out, or it is pointed out
> that there may be better Python solutions for some web use cases than
> bespoke sites, top Django bloggers get apoplectic and start saying things
> which make themselves look foolish in the wider Python community.
>
> 8) The propensity for isolation in the Django community has brought them
> suffering. Regularly we see Django plugging security holes which were
> discovered and solved more than a decade ago in the wider Python web
> community. But the plugging of said holes is announced with great fanfare
> and pride as if to demonstrate a lack of awareness that these problems have
> already been solved.
>
> 9) Lack of awareness has caused the Django community to often mislead
> people new to Python or Python web frameworks. PyCon is full of Django
> people talking about how the Zope people are disconnected from the Python
> community, seemingly ignorant that the first ten years of PyCon were hosted
> by Zope people, that the PSF was founded by Zope people (heck, look at the
> mailing address for the PSF), and that the predecessor to the PSF actually
> funded the development of Zope so that Python would have an application
> server. All of the truly old Python greybeards know Zope is what led the
> development of Python into the 21st century. We go to PyCon and hear the
> Django folks with their new shoes asking where all the Zope people are
> right under the noses of all the Zope people because a) they don't see Paul
> Everrit, b) some Django folks stacked all the talks in favor of Django, and
> c) the Django folks choose PyCon as the occasion for their major sprints
> and get an inflated sense of their relative importance from it.
>
> 10) The Django echo chamber within the Python community has led to a
> PHP-like "program the web in 24 hours" Python subculture of half-baked
> mash-ups and web kerts which cheapen other Python web frameworks supporting
> the tougher problems of the web. People attacking the tougher problems of
> the web seem to be seen by the Django community as "too complicated" or
> "not agile." Although, having a web framework for web noobs within the
> palette of Python web offerings is not always a bad thing. :)
>
> 11) Tendency to isolation, lack of awareness, and the echo chamber effect
> have been destructive to the Python community in other cities. I know of
> one city where the Python group is led by some of the smartest people in
> Python, who bend over backwards to make sure their meetings are geared
> towards people new to Python. They have about five people who come to their
> meetings while a brand new Django group in that same city pulls in about 30
> people every month, who just pack a bar and gab about who won what
> contract. The community building exercise seems lost on these Django groups
> in the same cities with PUGs. Idunno, maybe it's a good thing that those
> folks go segregate themselves. But I think there's a better way for
> everybody.
>
> 12) I haven't noticed that occurring in cities with dual Python and Plone
> user groups. Having a Django group in a city with a ZPUG group is kind of
> like having a "Just Plain Java" web group in a city with a JUG because the
> JUG group has people who talk about Tomcat. Plone, however, is a product.
> It makes sense that there are BEA and Websphere user groups in the same way
> that it makes sense that BEA and Websphere people might rather just meet as
> a JUG.
>
> 13) We purposely have a ZPUG because Zope is *the* application server for
> Python. I don't find Java people who are put off because Java has an
> application server, even though there are "Just Plain Java" web frameworks.
> I always recommend to people starting Python groups to start a ZPUG because
> there is strength in numbers and diversity. I like Python movements in
> cities which head off the creation of separate Plone user groups.
> Designating a ZPUG is a sneaky way of corralling that tendency to split.
> I notice that Python groups which don't do this soon have a Plone user
> group in the same city. I'm convinced that's not good for Plone people
> and other Python people simply point to it and say, look, I told you
> those Zope people really aren't part of the Python community.
>
> 14) TriZPUG was co-founded by a Plone core developer. It was hosted in the
> first three years of its existence at a Zope shop at NCSU. This gave some
> people the impression that it is a Zope/Plone group (some people have
> jokingly called it the Triangle Zope and Plone Users Group), and certainly
> we have our Zope/Plone people *mainly because the Zope and Plone people are
> responsible for most of the Python around here*. But the other cofounder
> was
> *not* a Zope or Plone person and we have begged and begged every Django
> person we can find to make Django presentations at TriZPUG to not much
> avail.
> It is almost like Django people are not interested in any stage where they
> can't own the entire stage. I find it really strange that when Django folks
> want to have some presentations, they feel like they have to go somewhere
> else other than where people have been begging for them.
>
> 15) The Django community seems more about building websites for its own
> sake than solving problems with web technologies. The whole
> uber-frameworkiness of Django suggests most of the effort goes into
> building web sites, and then deciding how to use the sites later. You can
> see this happen with any Django user group that builds their own website as
> opposed to spending five minutes installing Plone and posting a meeting
> announcement. I can point you at a Python user group startup in a
> metropolitan area larger than ours that failed in the last year because a)
> all of their energy went into the web framework which was supposed to
> promote their meetings instead of having and promoting their meetings
> through a working collaborative web site, and b) they took measures to make
> sure their local Zope and Plone people had no role in developing the group
> or the site. They let one Plone person make a presentation and then just
> said, OK, we've already had our Plone meeting, don't need any more.
>
> 16) Django finally got some Zope 3 components into their code base.
> I think it was even a Plone component. We'd like to encourage this
> nascent opportunity for component reuse in the Django community so
> that they might benefit from the orgy the rest of the Python world
> is having.
>
> 17) I made a change to ZopeSkel a month ago. Much to my surprise, it broke
> somebody's Django project. He submitted a patch. We decided to make some
> architectural changes to ZopeSkel to make it easier for Django people to
> use. This is the kind of ecology we want to promote.
>
> Despite all those concerns that we have at one time or another talked about
> amongst ourselves, I see some overriding factors in TriDJUG's favor:
>
> 1) This is all governed by the Law of Two Feet. People will shuffle to the
> social formations which meet their needs, no matter what we think for
> ourselves.
>
> 2) TriDJUG seems pretty aware of this. The invitation says things like they
> would have talks "whenever someone proposes it." That's very much in the
> spirit of TriZPUG's shotgun rules for meetings.
>
> 3) The activities stated on their invitation seem mostly about having
> sprints and coctail gatherings. How could anyone be against that?
>
> 4) They have highlighted TriZPUG events on their mailing list. Their
> twitter channel follows TriZPUG.
>
> 5) Messages on their mailing list indicate they want good relations with
> TriZPUG.
>
> 6) They politely came to TriZPUG to inform us of their plans. TriZPUG is
> founded on the shotgun principles. If you want to do something in TriZPUG,
> all you have to do it declare shotgun. What's good for the goose is good
> for the gander. If someone invites you to a dinner party, you can decline
> the invitation. But it would be rude to tell someone you don't approve of
> them having their own dinner parties if you don't feel like coming.
>
> 7) If some among you wanted to start having separate Plone meetings in
> addition to TriZPUG meetings, I'm sure no one would object. In fact,
> TriZPUG *does* have Zope/Plone sprints, sponsor Zope/Plone events, and have
> informal gatherings of Zope/Plone people. Even, say, just the Zope/Plone
> people in Chapel Hill: http://trizpug.org/gallery/uncplone-1206/
>
> The difference is, all those people have been highly involved in TriZPUG.
>
> I think all the objection is simply because TriZPUG is starved for Django
> presentations and we don't want to have to add yet another meeting to our
> calendar in order to get them. But if there are people who are willing to
> make Django presentations and they want to organize meetings, I say more
> power to them. Really, I want to see Django activity here so badly that I
> *will* go to yet another meeting. Vote with feet, not mouths.
>
> On preview, Tobias's suggestion that TriDJUG come give their presentations
> at TriZPUG gets +1000 from me. Remember, it's shotgun rules. If you have a
> presentation, you simply declare that you are giving the presentation at
> the regular meeting in month X. You don't wait for an invitation. You don't
> ask for permission. You don't ask who would be interested. You just do it
> and the meeting announcement will bind to you. Magically. With ponies. And
> rainbows.
>
> Chris Rossi, we have seven years invested in the TriZPUG brand name. Next
> to DZUG and BayPiggies, we're probably the most well known Python user
> group in the world. The available alternatives seem clunky. (BTW, a good
> half of the BayPiggies really hate their name. They thought "PIG" is too
> un-enterprise or something about that important. They've had excessive
> numbers of horrible flame wars on the topic. It got so bad that the people
> who wanted a different name were "invited" to go start their own group
> under the shotgun rules, which they did, and it failed within two months.)
>
> In Python we have rules for picking and sticking with names for things. I
> think we're done and we're carrying on with what other people graciously
> started for us. I think if you want TriPy, then you announce when and where
> you are going to start holding TriPy meetings and see how many feet follow
> you and if it's worth it. Because there's a crazy amount of infrastructure
> work to be done just to change the name. And not work you can just say,
> "OK, I'll do it," because there are any number of people involved that will
> need to help you get into that infrastructure. It makes me shudder to think
> how many hours I'd have to spend on making that happen.
>
> I even do a lot of work with trying to help people set up Python user
> groups in other cities and I *always* advise on starting a ZPUG and not
> just a PUG. ZPUG does not seem to scare off the other non-Zope web people,
> just the Django people. I think they can get over it. It would be healthy
> to get over it.
>
> And as for non-web Python people, over 90 percent of Pypi are web packages
> or in support of web packages. It's a fact of life that Python is a
> web-centric language like Perl and Ruby. People who have that fear that
> they might rub elbows with web people need to get over it, too. If we
> change the name, then I think we need to go start a separate Zope user
> group and maybe a separate Plone user group, too. (And if you think that's
> a good idea, look at how well it worked in the Bay area when they tried
> it.) Maybe separate BFG and WSGI groups, too. Definitely TriCherryPy.
>
> Anyway, it is highly unrealistic to promote the idea that if you come to a
> Python user group meeting, the content of the meeting is going to be geared
> most of the time to what you are already doing and only what interests you.
> Python is far to broad for that. I like the idea of the big tent, as well
> as the acknowledgment of who it was that brought us to the dance in that
> tent. It would be making an unsupportable statement to change the name of
> the group.
>
> There's going to continue to be an emphasis on Zope within TriZPUG, even if
> there is an increase in the emphasis on Django, not because of the name
> TriZPUG, but because of the shotgun rules and the Law of Two Feet. The
> presence of Zope and Plone people in TriZPUG has been what has made it
> strong. Heck, I'm a Plone person. But when I look at the topics of the 20
> presentations I've made to TriZPUG, less than half of them have been about
> Zope and/or Plone. It's been mostly Python by me.
>
> So I'm all -11 for a name change.
>
> Really, I'd like to see the energy that would go into changing the name put
> instead into something like nailing down the meeting location reservations
> for the next year, posting meeting announcements in the wide variety of
> places we need them posted, raising sprint/sponsorship/scholarship funds,
> devising new boot camps, helping manage the web site/mailing list/irc
> channel/meetup.com, etc.. Things that really matter.
>
> If there are people out there who have the energy to make extra
> presentations, meetings, sprints, gatherings, etc., that's what matters.
> We need that.
>
> Cheers, Chris
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TriZPUG mailing list
> TriZPUG at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug
>
>
> End of TriZPUG Digest, Vol 19, Issue 9
> **************************************
>

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