From paul at godley.org Mon Nov 2 22:44:54 2009 From: paul at godley.org (Paul Godley) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:44:54 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] xlwt and Data / Subtotals? Message-ID: Greetings All, I use xlwt to create some Excel worksheets from data in Postgres. I've not had a need to use formula before, but now I'm interested in implementing the behavior you get in Excel when you use the Data / Subtotals... menu. My Google efforts haven't turned up anything useful. A grep of the xlwt "examples" folder for "subtotal" returns no hits. Does anyone know if xlwt supports this kind of thing? I've seen subtotals mentioned in ExcelMagic.py, but I don't understand it yet. If you know it can or cannot be done, that'll put me on the right path. Thanks! -P From josh_johnson at unc.edu Tue Nov 3 14:44:56 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 08:44:56 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] xlwt and Data / Subtotals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you tried just writing the formula into the cell, as you would in excel? I've not used xlwt, but recall having some success with that in the past. I'd also be grepping the _source code_ and the examples for "formula" if I were you :) IIRC, the excel function is SUM(), and you can pass it a cell range, eg =SUM(A1:A5) HTH, JJ On Nov 2, 2009, at 4:44 PM, Paul Godley wrote: > Greetings All, > > I use xlwt to create some Excel worksheets from data in Postgres. I've > not had a need to use formula before, but now I'm interested in > implementing the behavior you get in Excel when you use the Data / > Subtotals... menu. My Google efforts haven't turned up anything > useful. A grep of the xlwt "examples" folder for "subtotal" returns no > hits. Does anyone know if xlwt supports this kind of thing? I've seen > subtotals mentioned in ExcelMagic.py, but I don't understand it yet. > > If you know it can or cannot be done, that'll put me on the right > path. > > Thanks! > > -P > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > From paul at godley.org Wed Nov 4 15:32:33 2009 From: paul at godley.org (Paul Godley) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:32:33 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] xlwt and Data / Subtotals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe you're right, Josh. Upon closer examination, it looks like Excel just adds a row and inserts a SUBTOTAL function in the cell below the data when the control field breaks. I thought there was some magical sheet-wide function going on. I think I can mimic that behavior with xlwt. Thanks! -P On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Josh Johnson wrote: > Have you tried just writing the formula into the cell, as you would in > excel? I've not used xlwt, but recall having some success with that in the > past. > > I'd also be grepping the _source code_ and the examples for "formula" if I > were you :) IIRC, the excel function is SUM(), and you can pass it a cell > range, eg =SUM(A1:A5) > > HTH, > JJ > > On Nov 2, 2009, at 4:44 PM, Paul Godley wrote: > >> Greetings All, >> >> I use xlwt to create some Excel worksheets from data in Postgres. I've >> not had a need to use formula before, but now I'm interested in >> implementing the behavior you get in Excel when you use the Data / >> Subtotals... menu. My Google efforts haven't turned up anything >> useful. A grep of the xlwt "examples" folder for "subtotal" returns no >> hits. Does anyone know if xlwt supports this kind of thing? I've seen >> subtotals mentioned in ExcelMagic.py, but I don't understand it yet. >> >> If you know it can or cannot be done, that'll put me on the right path. >> >> Thanks! >> >> -P >> _______________________________________________ >> TriZPUG mailing list >> TriZPUG at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug >> http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group >> > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > From jseymore at formalifesciencemarketing.com Fri Nov 6 20:23:19 2009 From: jseymore at formalifesciencemarketing.com (Josh Seymore) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:23:19 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Plone CMS: Any help would be much appreciated! Message-ID: <6FD0DB86-B4E2-4374-AE5E-0D9EBCDD4D2E@formalifesciencemarketing.com> Hello all! I work for a life science marketing firm based downtown Raleigh and we currently are compiling an estimate for a website facelift for one of our clients. My roadblock with this is that it needs to be programmed to integrate into a Plone CMS. Does anyone have experience or know a referral that could help in the programming aspect of the site in order to work with the Plone CMS feature? I appreciate any help that you all may have. Thank you. Josh Seymore :: Production Director Forma :: Making the Complex Compelling 715 Tucker Street Raleigh, NC 27603 tele ............ 919.832.1244 x227 fax ............. 919.832.4522 www.FormaLifeScienceMarketing.com P Please consider the environment before printing this email. Note: This message is intended only for the designated recipient(s). It may contain confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to confidentiality protections.If you are not a designated recipient, you may not review, use, copy or distribute this message. If you receive this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message.Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tobias at caktusgroup.com Mon Nov 9 18:10:55 2009 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:10:55 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting Message-ID: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, A few of us have been thinking about starting up an informal Django Users Group in the Triangle to get together for drinks and perhaps a dev sprint or talk every now and then. I'm thinking drinks once a month and a sprint/talk whenever someone proposes it, maybe every quarter or so. So far, we have a Google Group and a Twitter account: http://groups.google.com/group/tridjug http://twitter.com/TriDjUG So, please sign up if you're interested and, once we reach a critical mass, we'll schedule an initial meeting and make a plan for the group. Cheers, Tobias -- Tobias McNulty Caktus Consulting Group, LLC P.O. Box 1454 Carrboro, NC 27510 (919) 951-0052 http://www.caktusgroup.com From gary.poster at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 19:04:09 2009 From: gary.poster at gmail.com (Gary Poster) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:04:09 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > Hi All, > > A few of us have been thinking about starting up an informal Django > Users Group in the Triangle to get together for drinks and perhaps a > dev sprint or talk every now and then. I'm thinking drinks once a > month and a sprint/talk whenever someone proposes it, maybe every > quarter or so. > > So far, we have a Google Group and a Twitter account: > > http://groups.google.com/group/tridjug > > http://twitter.com/TriDjUG > > So, please sign up if you're interested and, once we reach a critical > mass, we'll schedule an initial meeting and make a plan for the group. Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to see a split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified TriPUG. Gary From chris at christophermrossi.com Mon Nov 9 19:06:02 2009 From: chris at christophermrossi.com (Chris Rossi) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:06:02 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Gary Poster wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > > Hi All, >> >> A few of us have been thinking about starting up an informal Django >> Users Group in the Triangle to get together for drinks and perhaps a >> dev sprint or talk every now and then. I'm thinking drinks once a >> month and a sprint/talk whenever someone proposes it, maybe every >> quarter or so. >> >> So far, we have a Google Group and a Twitter account: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/tridjug >> >> http://twitter.com/TriDjUG >> >> So, please sign up if you're interested and, once we reach a critical >> mass, we'll schedule an initial meeting and make a plan for the group. >> > > Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to see a > split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified > TriPUG. > > +1 Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tobias at caktusgroup.com Mon Nov 9 19:20:33 2009 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:20:33 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8101bb810911091020w1182a30ek2557c64bde0474c4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Gary Poster wrote: > Is there any chance we could combine these? ?I'd personally hate to see a > split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified > TriPUG. Hi Gary - our intent is certainly not to split off from the main Python user group in the area, so I apologize if it came off that way(!); we're simply trying to augment what's already here with something Django-specific. I think there's room for both: More formal meetings (and less formal socializing too, I'm sure) at Tri(Z)PUG, and a smaller subset that is Django users who meet on a less regular and less formal basis. I'm certainly open to a discussion about how we'd combine them, but I'm looking for ways to specifically foster the local Django community and I'm not sure TriPUG is the way to do it (for the record, "TriPUG" seems to be taken by the PHP folks). If nothing else, I see TriDjUG as a way of bring people in to the broader Python community who might not have found it otherwise. I'd venture a guess that at least a small number of Django developers came to Python through Django, and not the other way around. What about keeping the "TriDjUG" name but somehow grouping it under the larger TriZPUG umbrella? Thanks for voicing your concerns and I look forward to hearing your thoughts! Tobias -- Tobias McNulty Caktus Consulting Group, LLC P.O. Box 1454 Carrboro, NC 27510 (919) 951-0052 http://www.caktusgroup.com From KGrandis at lexile.com Mon Nov 9 19:19:50 2009 From: KGrandis at lexile.com (Kurt Grandis) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:19:50 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> Message-ID: <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> I tend to agree with Gary. I think the Triangle Python community will benefit from bringing more Django talks to the regular TriZPUG meetings. The lack of a Django flavor to date has primarily been due to the fact that Django folks haven't stepped up to give any talks--myself included. From previous discussions I think people would love a wider range of Python topics. I've personally been amazed at the seeming growth in Django popularity within the Triangle. So, the idea of organizing local Django-oriented sprints and drinks sounds great. I'll be there with bells on, but I do think we can probably give it a start within TriZPUG. -Kurt -----Original Message----- From: trizpug-bounces+kgrandis=lexile.com at python.org [mailto:trizpug-bounces+kgrandis=lexile.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Gary Poster Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:04 PM To: Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > Hi All, > > A few of us have been thinking about starting up an informal Django > Users Group in the Triangle to get together for drinks and perhaps a > dev sprint or talk every now and then. I'm thinking drinks once a > month and a sprint/talk whenever someone proposes it, maybe every > quarter or so. > > So far, we have a Google Group and a Twitter account: > > http://groups.google.com/group/tridjug > > http://twitter.com/TriDjUG > > So, please sign up if you're interested and, once we reach a critical > mass, we'll schedule an initial meeting and make a plan for the group. Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to see a split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified TriPUG. Gary _______________________________________________ TriZPUG mailing list TriZPUG at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group From chris at christophermrossi.com Mon Nov 9 19:33:51 2009 From: chris at christophermrossi.com (Chris Rossi) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:33:51 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> Message-ID: <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Kurt Grandis wrote: > I tend to agree with Gary. I think the Triangle Python community will > benefit from bringing more Django talks to the regular TriZPUG meetings. The > lack of a Django flavor to date has primarily been due to the fact that > Django folks haven't stepped up to give any talks--myself included. From > previous discussions I think people would love a wider range of Python > topics. > > I've personally been amazed at the seeming growth in Django popularity > within the Triangle. So, the idea of organizing local Django-oriented > sprints and drinks sounds great. I'll be there with bells on, but I do think > we can probably give it a start within TriZPUG. > > I would only add, that since the TriZPUG community isn't particularly large, I don't see a lot of impetus for splitting off. Meetings sizes, in my experience, range from 3 to 30 folks. I would also count myself, personally, as someone who is interested in hearing about what the Django folks are doing, but would be unlikely to attend a Django specific meetup, since I don't use Django in my work, currently. I would enjoy hearing about a variety of topics, though, including Django at the general meetings. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcd at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Nov 9 19:35:48 2009 From: jcd at sdf.lonestar.org (J. Cliff Dyer) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:35:48 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911091020w1182a30ek2557c64bde0474c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <8101bb810911091020w1182a30ek2557c64bde0474c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1257791748.3053.14.camel@aalcdl07> For the record, I like the idea of a TriDjUG. Zope and Plone are not very interesting to me, and as a result, I haven't been to many TriZPUG events, (I did go to Chris Rossi's WSGI talk a few months back). Personally, I would love to have some place to meet up with other django users. Cheers, Cliff On Mon, 2009-11-09 at 13:20 -0500, Tobias McNulty wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Gary Poster wrote: > > Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to see a > > split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified > > TriPUG. > > Hi Gary - our intent is certainly not to split off from the main > Python user group in the area, so I apologize if it came off that > way(!); we're simply trying to augment what's already here with > something Django-specific. I think there's room for both: More formal > meetings (and less formal socializing too, I'm sure) at Tri(Z)PUG, and > a smaller subset that is Django users who meet on a less regular and > less formal basis. > > I'm certainly open to a discussion about how we'd combine them, but > I'm looking for ways to specifically foster the local Django community > and I'm not sure TriPUG is the way to do it (for the record, "TriPUG" > seems to be taken by the PHP folks). If nothing else, I see TriDjUG > as a way of bring people in to the broader Python community who might > not have found it otherwise. I'd venture a guess that at least a > small number of Django developers came to Python through Django, and > not the other way around. > > What about keeping the "TriDjUG" name but somehow grouping it under > the larger TriZPUG umbrella? > > Thanks for voicing your concerns and I look forward to hearing your thoughts! > > Tobias From brad.crittenden at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 19:46:31 2009 From: brad.crittenden at gmail.com (Bradley A. Crittenden) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:46:31 -0300 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2009, at 15:19 , Kurt Grandis wrote: > I tend to agree with Gary. I think the Triangle Python community > will benefit from bringing more Django talks to the regular TriZPUG > meetings. The lack of a Django flavor to date has primarily been due > to the fact that Django folks haven't stepped up to give any talks-- > myself included. From previous discussions I think people would love > a wider range of Python topics. > > I've personally been amazed at the seeming growth in Django > popularity within the Triangle. So, the idea of organizing local > Django-oriented sprints and drinks sounds great. I'll be there with > bells on, but I do think we can probably give it a start within > TriZPUG. > > -Kurt Kurt and Gary have more eloquently expressed what I tried to say at our last meeting. I'd *love* to hear Django talks at the TriZPUG meetings. --Brad From tobias at caktusgroup.com Mon Nov 9 20:11:07 2009 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:11:07 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> Message-ID: <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote: > Kurt and Gary have more eloquently expressed what I tried to say at our last > meeting. ?I'd *love* to hear Django talks at the TriZPUG meetings. So (and I'm just thinking out loud here, so please speak up if you have another idea), what if the Django folks scheduled all of their talks through TriZPUG, but occasionally met for socializing/dev sprints as a separate entity? Does that seem like a reasonable middleground? Cheers, Tobias -- Tobias McNulty Caktus Consulting Group, LLC P.O. Box 1454 Carrboro, NC 27510 (919) 951-0052 http://www.caktusgroup.com From pmclanahan at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:15:16 2009 From: pmclanahan at gmail.com (Paul McLanahan) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:15:16 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> Message-ID: <21096c180911091115g2fa4b815s38992f3b01326c1c@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote: > Kurt and Gary have more eloquently expressed what I tried to say at our last > meeting. ?I'd *love* to hear Django talks at the TriZPUG meetings. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we not have Django talks at the TriZPUG. The suggestion as I understand it is that the Django specific group would be for those interested very specifically in Django, and then only in informal get-togethers and perhaps the occasional development sprint. I believe that the formal meetings with talks would (should) remain at TriZPUG. The TriDjUG idea is really just a social and networking group with possibly some technical support amongst ourselves thrown in for good measure. I wouldn't expect any Django users to ditch the TriZPUG for the new group as they're vastly different in scope. I'm sure that even the announcements for meetups for drinks and sprints would be cross-posted to the TriZPUG just in case anyone might be interested in them, but not necessarily in joining the separate mailing list. One of the main precipitating factors in the formation of this group is the number of other Django User Groups popping up around the country (and world). We thought that perhaps some people interested in Django may seek out such a group in this area, but might not want or think to search for the TriZPUG. If anything, I'd think people would come to the TriZPUG from TriDjUG, and not leave one for the other. We also want to use it to demonstrate the strength of the Triangle Django community to companies interested in using Django for their projects. If the leadership of TriZPUG would like to begin having sub groups (lists), I think the TriDjUG would be a good candidate for such a group. But one thing that should be very clear is that we in no way want to split from this group, only to further enhance the Python community in the Triangle. Paul From gary.poster at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:16:20 2009 From: gary.poster at gmail.com (Gary Poster) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:16:20 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911091020w1182a30ek2557c64bde0474c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <8101bb810911091020w1182a30ek2557c64bde0474c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742C7824-8218-48D6-8C06-3950A53FDA9E@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2009, at 1:20 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Gary Poster > wrote: >> Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to >> see a >> split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a >> unified >> TriPUG. > > Hi Gary - our intent is certainly not to split off from the main > Python user group in the area, so I apologize if it came off that > way(!); we're simply trying to augment what's already here with > something Django-specific. I think there's room for both: More formal > meetings (and less formal socializing too, I'm sure) at Tri(Z)PUG, and > a smaller subset that is Django users who meet on a less regular and > less formal basis. > > I'm certainly open to a discussion about how we'd combine them, but > I'm looking for ways to specifically foster the local Django community > and I'm not sure TriPUG is the way to do it (for the record, "TriPUG" > seems to be taken by the PHP folks). Heh, stinky PHP. :-) TriPyUG? TriPIG? > If nothing else, I see TriDjUG > as a way of bring people in to the broader Python community who might > not have found it otherwise. I'd venture a guess that at least a > small number of Django developers came to Python through Django, and > not the other way around. > > What about keeping the "TriDjUG" name but somehow grouping it under > the larger TriZPUG umbrella? > > Thanks for voicing your concerns and I look forward to hearing your > thoughts! While others may feel differently, the naming is not terribly important to me. However, the "umbrella" doesn't accomplish what I'm interested in either. What I'm interested in is having an opportunity to mingle with other Python developers. I'm interested in what is going on the Django world. I touch on it a bit in my job. I have a lot of experience with the Zope 3/Zope ToolKit world. I touch on that a lot in my job. I think the perspectives of both are valuable, and I'm interested in learning from both--not to mention turbogears, repoze.bfg, pylons and FILL_IN_THE_BLANK. Not to mention a variety of other packages, like nose, buildout, reportlab, wwwutils, and so on. To me, the point of user groups like this is to share ideas in a friendly setting. Would "Django nights" or "Django months" or something like that make this somehow more appealing, and more easy to accomplish your goals than simply preparing a Django talk and seeing who comes? If the user group name changed, or there were an umbrella TriPyUG that encompassed TriZPUG and TriDjUG, but the meetings were all scheduled for the umbrella TriPyUG, would that help? Thanks Gary From pmclanahan at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:17:51 2009 From: pmclanahan at gmail.com (Paul McLanahan) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:17:51 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21096c180911091117i557c4070we8cf0b08bf1217e3@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > So (and I'm just thinking out loud here, so please speak up if you > have another idea), what if the Django folks scheduled all of their > talks through TriZPUG, but occasionally met for socializing/dev > sprints as a separate entity? ?Does that seem like a reasonable > middleground? +1 That's how I see it working. From gary.poster at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:23:19 2009 From: gary.poster at gmail.com (Gary Poster) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:23:19 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48ACEA04-AC48-42BB-AC65-49CBDADAEBF7@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Bradley A. Crittenden > wrote: >> Kurt and Gary have more eloquently expressed what I tried to say at >> our last >> meeting. I'd *love* to hear Django talks at the TriZPUG meetings. > > So (and I'm just thinking out loud here, so please speak up if you > have another idea), what if the Django folks scheduled all of their > talks through TriZPUG, but occasionally met for socializing/dev > sprints as a separate entity? Does that seem like a reasonable > middleground? /me notes that he better go to that first Django talk if at all possible, since he stirred up the trouble ;-) I'd personally be +1 on talking about Django on a shared list (including your sprints and socializing), but maybe that's just crazy talk. Gary From josh_johnson at unc.edu Mon Nov 9 20:23:58 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:23:58 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51734B16-1DE3-4E5D-9527-9FCB56177721@unc.edu> I agree with Chris. I honestly don't think the problem has been that we focus on Zope/ Plone, it's just that most of the people who talk happen to be doing Zope/Plone stuff (it's sort of a group therapy thing ;)). Like Chris, I'd come to Django-related meetings, even though my work focus is different, but I have a hard time justifying the devotion of more of my free time for something specific. I kind of resent the idea that people who know Plone/Zope aren't interested in Django and vice-versa. My interest in this group has always been python first, and congregating with other python people second. JJ On Nov 9, 2009, at 1:33 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Kurt Grandis > wrote: > I tend to agree with Gary. I think the Triangle Python community > will benefit from bringing more Django talks to the regular TriZPUG > meetings. The lack of a Django flavor to date has primarily been due > to the fact that Django folks haven't stepped up to give any talks-- > myself included. From previous discussions I think people would love > a wider range of Python topics. > > I've personally been amazed at the seeming growth in Django > popularity within the Triangle. So, the idea of organizing local > Django-oriented sprints and drinks sounds great. I'll be there with > bells on, but I do think we can probably give it a start within > TriZPUG. > > I would only add, that since the TriZPUG community isn't > particularly large, I don't see a lot of impetus for splitting off. > Meetings sizes, in my experience, range from 3 to 30 folks. I would > also count myself, personally, as someone who is interested in > hearing about what the Django folks are doing, but would be unlikely > to attend a Django specific meetup, since I don't use Django in my > work, currently. I would enjoy hearing about a variety of topics, > though, including Django at the general meetings. > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KGrandis at lexile.com Mon Nov 9 20:24:39 2009 From: KGrandis at lexile.com (Kurt Grandis) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:24:39 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65F3C@MM1> +1 -----Original Message----- From: trizpug-bounces+kgrandis=lexile.com at python.org [mailto:trizpug-bounces+kgrandis=lexile.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Tobias McNulty Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:11 PM To: Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote: > Kurt and Gary have more eloquently expressed what I tried to say at our last > meeting. I'd *love* to hear Django talks at the TriZPUG meetings. So (and I'm just thinking out loud here, so please speak up if you have another idea), what if the Django folks scheduled all of their talks through TriZPUG, but occasionally met for socializing/dev sprints as a separate entity? Does that seem like a reasonable middleground? Cheers, Tobias -- Tobias McNulty Caktus Consulting Group, LLC P.O. Box 1454 Carrboro, NC 27510 (919) 951-0052 http://www.caktusgroup.com _______________________________________________ TriZPUG mailing list TriZPUG at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group From mbiggers at med.unc.edu Mon Nov 9 20:19:00 2009 From: mbiggers at med.unc.edu (Mark R. Biggers) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:19:00 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> Message-ID: <4AF86B24.5070202@med.unc.edu> (Brad + Kurt + Gary + Chris.R)++ Isn't this the Triangle Zippy Python Users Group? About time we got some Django talks... ;) Frank.W's talk on Jython mentioned that folks have gotten Django running on Jython under J2EE -- now that's interesting, too. thank you, ----mark Bradley A. Crittenden wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 15:19 , Kurt Grandis wrote: > >> I tend to agree with Gary. I think the Triangle Python community will >> benefit from bringing more Django talks to the regular TriZPUG >> meetings. The lack of a Django flavor to date has primarily been due >> to the fact that Django folks haven't stepped up to give any >> talks--myself included. From previous discussions I think people >> would love a wider range of Python topics. >> >> I've personally been amazed at the seeming growth in Django >> popularity within the Triangle. So, the idea of organizing local >> Django-oriented sprints and drinks sounds great. I'll be there with >> bells on, but I do think we can probably give it a start within TriZPUG. >> >> -Kurt > > Kurt and Gary have more eloquently expressed what I tried to say at > our last meeting. I'd *love* to hear Django talks at the TriZPUG > meetings. > > --Brad > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group From pmclanahan at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:30:41 2009 From: pmclanahan at gmail.com (Paul McLanahan) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:30:41 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <51734B16-1DE3-4E5D-9527-9FCB56177721@unc.edu> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> <51734B16-1DE3-4E5D-9527-9FCB56177721@unc.edu> Message-ID: <21096c180911091130u13f825c0u15e28a8ee6308157@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: > I kind of resent the idea that people who know Plone/Zope aren't interested > in Django and vice-versa. My interest in this group has always been python > first, and congregating with other python people second. I'm really sorry if this discussion is coming off like that. I haven't read anything that would lead me to think that was the suggestion. In my mind, this really is only about having a group with the word "Django" in the name so that more people can find the Triangle Python community. Like I said earlier, I think people would come to TriZPUG from a TriDjUG, and that no one who's serious about Python would leave the TriZPUG. I know for a fact that this is true for those who would like to see this new group do well, myself included. Paul From cr at spacelabstudio.com Mon Nov 9 20:36:05 2009 From: cr at spacelabstudio.com (Chris Rossi) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:36:05 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? Message-ID: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> All, Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the 'Z' from the name of this group. I understand there's already a TriPUG that's PHP developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of what to call ourselves, but I think emphasizing that the group is about Python programming not just Zope or Plone or even web programming. I know it's hard to believe, but we've had some interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. There are actually other problem domains out there. So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire Python ecosystem? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a ring to it. Thanks, Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at christophermrossi.com Mon Nov 9 20:41:04 2009 From: chris at christophermrossi.com (Chris Rossi) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:41:04 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <21096c180911091130u13f825c0u15e28a8ee6308157@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> <51734B16-1DE3-4E5D-9527-9FCB56177721@unc.edu> <21096c180911091130u13f825c0u15e28a8ee6308157@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <60bf02c00911091141s7c72e14dw97e4dbab02b9a7f4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Paul McLanahan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: > > I kind of resent the idea that people who know Plone/Zope aren't > interested > > in Django and vice-versa. My interest in this group has always been > python > > first, and congregating with other python people second. > > I'm really sorry if this discussion is coming off like that. I haven't > read anything that would lead me to think that was the suggestion. In > my mind, this really is only about having a group with the word > "Django" in the name so that more people can find the Triangle Python > community. Like I said earlier, I think people would come to TriZPUG > from a TriDjUG, and that no one who's serious about Python would leave > the TriZPUG. I know for a fact that this is true for those who would > like to see this new group do well, myself included. > > What if instead of creating a new group (TriDjUG) the TriZPUG (or TriPIG, etc...) promoted some informal Django get togethers like you describe? But keep using the TriZPUG resources, like mailing list, etc... and encourage people coming in via Django to mingle with us at the general meetings? Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at mack-z.com Mon Nov 9 20:43:30 2009 From: ken at mack-z.com (Ken MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:43:30 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <422eddaf0911091143q4e1615eak61354ae698cd1036@mail.gmail.com> TriPyUG On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > All, > > Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the 'Z' from > the name of this group. I understand there's already a TriPUG that's PHP > developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of what to call ourselves, > but I think emphasizing that the group is about Python programming not just > Zope or Plone or even web programming. I know it's hard to believe, but > we've had some interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. > There are actually other problem domains out there. > > So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire Python > ecosystem? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a ring to it. > > Thanks, > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pmclanahan at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:44:03 2009 From: pmclanahan at gmail.com (Paul McLanahan) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:44:03 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21096c180911091144k2670170fua8e5eb5eea79c9a4@mail.gmail.com> +1 I like TriPython (a play on Try Python). A bit longer, but very clear. Paul PS - Not sure if the domain is available. On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > All, > > Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the 'Z' from > the name of this group.? I understand there's already a TriPUG that's PHP > developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of what to call ourselves, > but I think emphasizing that the group is about Python programming not just > Zope or Plone or even web programming.? I know it's hard to believe, but > we've had some interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. > There are actually other problem domains out there. > > So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire Python > ecosystem?? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a ring to it. > > Thanks, > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > From fwierzbicki at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:45:09 2009 From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (Frank Wierzbicki) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:45:09 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire Python > ecosystem?? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a ring to it. I like the PIG suggestion, or even TriPIGgies if we want to follow the folks in the bay area: http://www.baypiggies.net/ -Frank From paul at blinkylights.org Mon Nov 9 20:46:01 2009 From: paul at blinkylights.org (Paul Smith) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:46:01 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <8101bb810911091111q15462c36wb0b58bf1dd80f647@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF87179.8070708@blinkylights.org> Tobias McNulty wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Bradley A. Crittenden > wrote: > >> Kurt and Gary have more eloquently expressed what I tried to say at our last >> meeting. I'd *love* to hear Django talks at the TriZPUG meetings. >> > > So (and I'm just thinking out loud here, so please speak up if you > have another idea), what if the Django folks scheduled all of their > talks through TriZPUG, but occasionally met for socializing/dev > sprints as a separate entity? Does that seem like a reasonable > middleground? > > Cheers, > Tobias > > Tobias, I think that sounds like a perfect idea. While I know that there are a lot of Web developers who are only interested in Python because of Django, I can definitely testify that it can be really, really valuable to speak in front of, and to listen to the guys using Python for science, GIS, Plone, sysadmin'ing and general itch-scratching. --P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary.poster at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:50:30 2009 From: gary.poster at gmail.com (Gary Poster) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:50:30 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <581BF008-0638-423D-A561-9D1913AAFD65@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > All, > > Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the > 'Z' from the name of this group. I understand there's already a > TriPUG that's PHP developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of > what to call ourselves, but I think emphasizing that the group is > about Python programming not just Zope or Plone or even web > programming. I know it's hard to believe, but we've had some > interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. There are > actually other problem domains out there. > > So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire > Python ecosystem? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a > ring to it. I like the idea of changing the name, myself, though the name choice is just fun to me. It can be more important to people and companies providing consulting services, as one of the Django posts mentioned. I'm content to go along with what the group decides. I do want Chris Calloway's desires to feed into this heavily. He deserves it, for his incredible energy in the group. Gary From josh_johnson at unc.edu Mon Nov 9 21:19:06 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:19:06 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Where did that Z come from in the first place? I always assumed it was to let people know it was OK to talk about Zope ;) Maybe TriPPUG (Triangle Python Pimps? Triangle Power Python? Triangle Python People? Triangle Party Posers? Triangle Pretty Ponies?) :D JJ On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > All, > > Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the > 'Z' from the name of this group. I understand there's already a > TriPUG that's PHP developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of > what to call ourselves, but I think emphasizing that the group is > about Python programming not just Zope or Plone or even web > programming. I know it's hard to believe, but we've had some > interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. There are > actually other problem domains out there. > > So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire > Python ecosystem? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a > ring to it. > > Thanks, > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group From josh_johnson at unc.edu Mon Nov 9 21:24:41 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:24:41 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <21096c180911091130u13f825c0u15e28a8ee6308157@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> <51734B16-1DE3-4E5D-9527-9FCB56177721@unc.edu> <21096c180911091130u13f825c0u15e28a8ee6308157@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry if that came off sounding crass, I didn't mean to imply you were being this way, it's just a general feeling I get whenever this topic comes up. My point is even though you might be doing Django and I might be doing Plone, we should be able to talk about what we're doing and not be bored (or worry about boring anyone). And of course it's a given that, regardless of what web platform we use, we should be able to drink and eat together :P I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P JJ On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Paul McLanahan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Josh Johnson > wrote: >> I kind of resent the idea that people who know Plone/Zope aren't >> interested >> in Django and vice-versa. My interest in this group has always been >> python >> first, and congregating with other python people second. > > I'm really sorry if this discussion is coming off like that. I haven't > read anything that would lead me to think that was the suggestion. In > my mind, this really is only about having a group with the word > "Django" in the name so that more people can find the Triangle Python > community. Like I said earlier, I think people would come to TriZPUG > from a TriDjUG, and that no one who's serious about Python would leave > the TriZPUG. I know for a fact that this is true for those who would > like to see this new group do well, myself included. > > Paul > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > From paul at blinkylights.org Mon Nov 9 21:43:24 2009 From: paul at blinkylights.org (Paul Smith) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:43:24 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> <51734B16-1DE3-4E5D-9527-9FCB56177721@unc.edu> <21096c180911091130u13f825c0u15e28a8ee6308157@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF87EEC.2050201@blinkylights.org> Josh Johnson wrote: > > I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and > why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but > that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P > > JJ > I nominate Josh as automatic door-prize winner at the next meeting for no other reason than invoking Depeche Mode during a conversation about Python. Can a brother get a +1? --P From gary.poster at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 21:46:15 2009 From: gary.poster at gmail.com (Gary Poster) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:46:15 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <4AF87EEC.2050201@blinkylights.org> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <871DFE2C356B274A97F38A74C2426DFE046AB65EED@MM1> <60bf02c00911091033u2893e9b6s7696197ae6410ff5@mail.gmail.com> <51734B16-1DE3-4E5D-9527-9FCB56177721@unc.edu> <21096c180911091130u13f825c0u15e28a8ee6308157@mail.gmail.com> <4AF87EEC.2050201@blinkylights.org> Message-ID: <5F16D6C3-0641-4A06-8604-42C8A00D131D@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Paul Smith wrote: > Josh Johnson wrote: >> >> I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and >> why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but >> that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P >> >> JJ >> > > I nominate Josh as automatic door-prize winner at the next meeting > for no other reason than invoking Depeche Mode during a conversation > about Python. Can a brother get a +1? LOL +1 Gary From cbc at unc.edu Tue Nov 10 00:35:29 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:35:29 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <1F55F438-868E-4342-9843-9DE754ED3647@gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:06:02 -0500, Chris Rossi wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Gary Poster wrote: >> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: >>> So, please sign up if you're interested and, once we reach a critical mass, we'll schedule an initial meeting and make a plan for the group. >> Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to see a split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified TriPUG. > +1 You guys really know how to welcome someone back to work after three weeks away. :) I know there's a tendency to say, hey, let's not "split" up. But I would suggest that this is more about expanding than splitting. I have joined the TriDJUG Google Group and look forward to the first meeting. I have all the same concerns I'm sure many of us do, that is: 1) TriZPUG has had programs and solicits programs for all things Python, including Python web frameworks, libraries, and products. We've had presentations on Django, TurboGears, Pylons, BFG, Repoze, and of course Zope and Plone. 2) About one quarter of all the meetings we've ever had have been at a local Django development firm. 3) We have two members working furiously on hosting a TriZPUG Django Boot Camp and have had informal organizational meetings to further that. 4) We established ourselves on meetup.com so that we could make sure the keyword "Django" had some representation in the Triangle, among other things. We did this in hopes Django people would start coming to TriZPUG. 5) We have had more solicitation amongst ourselves for Django presentations at our meetings than any other topic. We'd really like to have more Django presentations at TriZPUG than have to go to yet another meeting. 6) It's never a good thing for a Python web framework's community to work in isolation from other Python web frameworks, libraries, and products. The Python web community is working towards a holistic Python web ecology instead of separate silos. I just came back from Plone Conference where there were talks about how Django and Plone work together. Joel Burton just gave the PyCon New Zealand keynote this week entitled, "Why Python Web Frameworks are Changing the Web," and it was all about how Python is becoming just one big web library instead of a bunch of framework silos. 7) The only Python web framework which seems to have trouble with this idea of web ecology is Django. It is brittle and doesn't play well with pluggable components. Whenever this is pointed out, or it is pointed out that there may be better Python solutions for some web use cases than bespoke sites, top Django bloggers get apoplectic and start saying things which make themselves look foolish in the wider Python community. 8) The propensity for isolation in the Django community has brought them suffering. Regularly we see Django plugging security holes which were discovered and solved more than a decade ago in the wider Python web community. But the plugging of said holes is announced with great fanfare and pride as if to demonstrate a lack of awareness that these problems have already been solved. 9) Lack of awareness has caused the Django community to often mislead people new to Python or Python web frameworks. PyCon is full of Django people talking about how the Zope people are disconnected from the Python community, seemingly ignorant that the first ten years of PyCon were hosted by Zope people, that the PSF was founded by Zope people (heck, look at the mailing address for the PSF), and that the predecessor to the PSF actually funded the development of Zope so that Python would have an application server. All of the truly old Python greybeards know Zope is what led the development of Python into the 21st century. We go to PyCon and hear the Django folks with their new shoes asking where all the Zope people are right under the noses of all the Zope people because a) they don't see Paul Everrit, b) some Django folks stacked all the talks in favor of Django, and c) the Django folks choose PyCon as the occasion for their major sprints and get an inflated sense of their relative importance from it. 10) The Django echo chamber within the Python community has led to a PHP-like "program the web in 24 hours" Python subculture of half-baked mash-ups and web kerts which cheapen other Python web frameworks supporting the tougher problems of the web. People attacking the tougher problems of the web seem to be seen by the Django community as "too complicated" or "not agile." Although, having a web framework for web noobs within the palette of Python web offerings is not always a bad thing. :) 11) Tendency to isolation, lack of awareness, and the echo chamber effect have been destructive to the Python community in other cities. I know of one city where the Python group is led by some of the smartest people in Python, who bend over backwards to make sure their meetings are geared towards people new to Python. They have about five people who come to their meetings while a brand new Django group in that same city pulls in about 30 people every month, who just pack a bar and gab about who won what contract. The community building exercise seems lost on these Django groups in the same cities with PUGs. Idunno, maybe it's a good thing that those folks go segregate themselves. But I think there's a better way for everybody. 12) I haven't noticed that occurring in cities with dual Python and Plone user groups. Having a Django group in a city with a ZPUG group is kind of like having a "Just Plain Java" web group in a city with a JUG because the JUG group has people who talk about Tomcat. Plone, however, is a product. It makes sense that there are BEA and Websphere user groups in the same way that it makes sense that BEA and Websphere people might rather just meet as a JUG. 13) We purposely have a ZPUG because Zope is *the* application server for Python. I don't find Java people who are put off because Java has an application server, even though there are "Just Plain Java" web frameworks. I always recommend to people starting Python groups to start a ZPUG because there is strength in numbers and diversity. I like Python movements in cities which head off the creation of separate Plone user groups. Designating a ZPUG is a sneaky way of corralling that tendency to split. I notice that Python groups which don't do this soon have a Plone user group in the same city. I'm convinced that's not good for Plone people and other Python people simply point to it and say, look, I told you those Zope people really aren't part of the Python community. 14) TriZPUG was co-founded by a Plone core developer. It was hosted in the first three years of its existence at a Zope shop at NCSU. This gave some people the impression that it is a Zope/Plone group (some people have jokingly called it the Triangle Zope and Plone Users Group), and certainly we have our Zope/Plone people *mainly because the Zope and Plone people are responsible for most of the Python around here*. But the other cofounder was *not* a Zope or Plone person and we have begged and begged every Django person we can find to make Django presentations at TriZPUG to not much avail. It is almost like Django people are not interested in any stage where they can't own the entire stage. I find it really strange that when Django folks want to have some presentations, they feel like they have to go somewhere else other than where people have been begging for them. 15) The Django community seems more about building websites for its own sake than solving problems with web technologies. The whole uber-frameworkiness of Django suggests most of the effort goes into building web sites, and then deciding how to use the sites later. You can see this happen with any Django user group that builds their own website as opposed to spending five minutes installing Plone and posting a meeting announcement. I can point you at a Python user group startup in a metropolitan area larger than ours that failed in the last year because a) all of their energy went into the web framework which was supposed to promote their meetings instead of having and promoting their meetings through a working collaborative web site, and b) they took measures to make sure their local Zope and Plone people had no role in developing the group or the site. They let one Plone person make a presentation and then just said, OK, we've already had our Plone meeting, don't need any more. 16) Django finally got some Zope 3 components into their code base. I think it was even a Plone component. We'd like to encourage this nascent opportunity for component reuse in the Django community so that they might benefit from the orgy the rest of the Python world is having. 17) I made a change to ZopeSkel a month ago. Much to my surprise, it broke somebody's Django project. He submitted a patch. We decided to make some architectural changes to ZopeSkel to make it easier for Django people to use. This is the kind of ecology we want to promote. Despite all those concerns that we have at one time or another talked about amongst ourselves, I see some overriding factors in TriDJUG's favor: 1) This is all governed by the Law of Two Feet. People will shuffle to the social formations which meet their needs, no matter what we think for ourselves. 2) TriDJUG seems pretty aware of this. The invitation says things like they would have talks "whenever someone proposes it." That's very much in the spirit of TriZPUG's shotgun rules for meetings. 3) The activities stated on their invitation seem mostly about having sprints and coctail gatherings. How could anyone be against that? 4) They have highlighted TriZPUG events on their mailing list. Their twitter channel follows TriZPUG. 5) Messages on their mailing list indicate they want good relations with TriZPUG. 6) They politely came to TriZPUG to inform us of their plans. TriZPUG is founded on the shotgun principles. If you want to do something in TriZPUG, all you have to do it declare shotgun. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If someone invites you to a dinner party, you can decline the invitation. But it would be rude to tell someone you don't approve of them having their own dinner parties if you don't feel like coming. 7) If some among you wanted to start having separate Plone meetings in addition to TriZPUG meetings, I'm sure no one would object. In fact, TriZPUG *does* have Zope/Plone sprints, sponsor Zope/Plone events, and have informal gatherings of Zope/Plone people. Even, say, just the Zope/Plone people in Chapel Hill: http://trizpug.org/gallery/uncplone-1206/ The difference is, all those people have been highly involved in TriZPUG. I think all the objection is simply because TriZPUG is starved for Django presentations and we don't want to have to add yet another meeting to our calendar in order to get them. But if there are people who are willing to make Django presentations and they want to organize meetings, I say more power to them. Really, I want to see Django activity here so badly that I *will* go to yet another meeting. Vote with feet, not mouths. On preview, Tobias's suggestion that TriDJUG come give their presentations at TriZPUG gets +1000 from me. Remember, it's shotgun rules. If you have a presentation, you simply declare that you are giving the presentation at the regular meeting in month X. You don't wait for an invitation. You don't ask for permission. You don't ask who would be interested. You just do it and the meeting announcement will bind to you. Magically. With ponies. And rainbows. Chris Rossi, we have seven years invested in the TriZPUG brand name. Next to DZUG and BayPiggies, we're probably the most well known Python user group in the world. The available alternatives seem clunky. (BTW, a good half of the BayPiggies really hate their name. They thought "PIG" is too un-enterprise or something about that important. They've had excessive numbers of horrible flame wars on the topic. It got so bad that the people who wanted a different name were "invited" to go start their own group under the shotgun rules, which they did, and it failed within two months.) In Python we have rules for picking and sticking with names for things. I think we're done and we're carrying on with what other people graciously started for us. I think if you want TriPy, then you announce when and where you are going to start holding TriPy meetings and see how many feet follow you and if it's worth it. Because there's a crazy amount of infrastructure work to be done just to change the name. And not work you can just say, "OK, I'll do it," because there are any number of people involved that will need to help you get into that infrastructure. It makes me shudder to think how many hours I'd have to spend on making that happen. I even do a lot of work with trying to help people set up Python user groups in other cities and I *always* advise on starting a ZPUG and not just a PUG. ZPUG does not seem to scare off the other non-Zope web people, just the Django people. I think they can get over it. It would be healthy to get over it. And as for non-web Python people, over 90 percent of Pypi are web packages or in support of web packages. It's a fact of life that Python is a web-centric language like Perl and Ruby. People who have that fear that they might rub elbows with web people need to get over it, too. If we change the name, then I think we need to go start a separate Zope user group and maybe a separate Plone user group, too. (And if you think that's a good idea, look at how well it worked in the Bay area when they tried it.) Maybe separate BFG and WSGI groups, too. Definitely TriCherryPy. Anyway, it is highly unrealistic to promote the idea that if you come to a Python user group meeting, the content of the meeting is going to be geared most of the time to what you are already doing and only what interests you. Python is far to broad for that. I like the idea of the big tent, as well as the acknowledgment of who it was that brought us to the dance in that tent. It would be making an unsupportable statement to change the name of the group. There's going to continue to be an emphasis on Zope within TriZPUG, even if there is an increase in the emphasis on Django, not because of the name TriZPUG, but because of the shotgun rules and the Law of Two Feet. The presence of Zope and Plone people in TriZPUG has been what has made it strong. Heck, I'm a Plone person. But when I look at the topics of the 20 presentations I've made to TriZPUG, less than half of them have been about Zope and/or Plone. It's been mostly Python by me. So I'm all -11 for a name change. Really, I'd like to see the energy that would go into changing the name put instead into something like nailing down the meeting location reservations for the next year, posting meeting announcements in the wide variety of places we need them posted, raising sprint/sponsorship/scholarship funds, devising new boot camps, helping manage the web site/mailing list/irc channel/meetup.com, etc.. Things that really matter. If there are people out there who have the energy to make extra presentations, meetings, sprints, gatherings, etc., that's what matters. We need that. Cheers, Chris From cjj at ifpeople.net Tue Nov 10 02:37:00 2009 From: cjj at ifpeople.net (Christopher Johnson) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:37:00 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] name Message-ID: <5e44dad80911091737h3e92f689t6a15ab9eeb19edce@mail.gmail.com> How do you all actually organize around the different tools (for example, Plone). Is it like a subgroup? If so, then a python-based name makes sense. Just another idea for naming... TriPy? -c On 11/9/09, trizpug-request at python.org wrote: > Send TriZPUG mailing list submissions to > trizpug at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > trizpug-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > trizpug-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of TriZPUG digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Can we change our name? (Gary Poster) > 2. Re: Can we change our name? (Josh Johnson) > 3. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Josh Johnson) > 4. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Paul Smith) > 5. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Gary Poster) > 6. Re: informal Triangle Django Users Group starting (Chris Calloway) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:50:30 -0500 > From: Gary Poster > To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group" > > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? > Message-ID: <581BF008-0638-423D-A561-9D1913AAFD65 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > >> All, >> >> Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the >> 'Z' from the name of this group. I understand there's already a >> TriPUG that's PHP developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of >> what to call ourselves, but I think emphasizing that the group is >> about Python programming not just Zope or Plone or even web >> programming. I know it's hard to believe, but we've had some >> interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. There are >> actually other problem domains out there. >> >> So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire >> Python ecosystem? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a >> ring to it. > > I like the idea of changing the name, myself, though the name choice > is just fun to me. It can be more important to people and companies > providing consulting services, as one of the Django posts mentioned. > I'm content to go along with what the group decides. > > I do want Chris Calloway's desires to feed into this heavily. He > deserves it, for his incredible energy in the group. > > Gary > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:19:06 -0500 > From: Josh Johnson > To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group" > > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > Where did that Z come from in the first place? I always assumed it was > to let people know it was OK to talk about Zope ;) > > Maybe TriPPUG (Triangle Python Pimps? Triangle Power Python? Triangle > Python People? Triangle Party Posers? Triangle Pretty Ponies?) :D > > JJ > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > >> All, >> >> Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the >> 'Z' from the name of this group. I understand there's already a >> TriPUG that's PHP developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of >> what to call ourselves, but I think emphasizing that the group is >> about Python programming not just Zope or Plone or even web >> programming. I know it's hard to believe, but we've had some >> interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. There are >> actually other problem domains out there. >> >> So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire >> Python ecosystem? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a >> ring to it. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TriZPUG mailing list >> TriZPUG at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug >> http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:24:41 -0500 > From: Josh Johnson > To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group" > > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > I'm sorry if that came off sounding crass, I didn't mean to imply you > were being this way, it's just a general feeling I get whenever this > topic comes up. > > My point is even though you might be doing Django and I might be doing > Plone, we should be able to talk about what we're doing and not be > bored (or worry about boring anyone). > > And of course it's a given that, regardless of what web platform we > use, we should be able to drink and eat together :P > > I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and > why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but > that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P > > JJ > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Paul McLanahan wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Josh Johnson >> wrote: >>> I kind of resent the idea that people who know Plone/Zope aren't >>> interested >>> in Django and vice-versa. My interest in this group has always been >>> python >>> first, and congregating with other python people second. >> >> I'm really sorry if this discussion is coming off like that. I haven't >> read anything that would lead me to think that was the suggestion. In >> my mind, this really is only about having a group with the word >> "Django" in the name so that more people can find the Triangle Python >> community. Like I said earlier, I think people would come to TriZPUG >> from a TriDjUG, and that no one who's serious about Python would leave >> the TriZPUG. I know for a fact that this is true for those who would >> like to see this new group do well, myself included. >> >> Paul >> _______________________________________________ >> TriZPUG mailing list >> TriZPUG at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug >> http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:43:24 -0500 > From: Paul Smith > To: "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group" > > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting > Message-ID: <4AF87EEC.2050201 at blinkylights.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Josh Johnson wrote: >> >> I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and >> why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but >> that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P >> >> JJ >> > > I nominate Josh as automatic door-prize winner at the next meeting > for no other reason than invoking Depeche Mode during a conversation > about Python. Can a brother get a +1? > > --P > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:46:15 -0500 > From: Gary Poster > To: "Triangle \(North Carolina\) Zope and Python Users Group" > > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting > Message-ID: <5F16D6C3-0641-4A06-8604-42C8A00D131D at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Paul Smith wrote: > >> Josh Johnson wrote: >>> >>> I'd take it a step further and say "programmers are programmers and >>> why should it be that we can't talk about different technology", but >>> that's a little too much Depeche Mode for my taste :P >>> >>> JJ >>> >> >> I nominate Josh as automatic door-prize winner at the next meeting >> for no other reason than invoking Depeche Mode during a conversation >> about Python. Can a brother get a +1? > > LOL > > +1 > > Gary > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:35:29 -0500 > From: Chris Calloway > To: "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group" > > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:06:02 -0500, Chris Rossi > wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Gary Poster > wrote: > >>> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > >>>> So, please sign up if you're interested and, once we reach a critical > mass, we'll schedule an initial meeting and make a plan for the group. > >>> Is there any chance we could combine these? I'd personally hate to see a > split like this, and would strongly prefer to see, effectively, a unified > TriPUG. > >> +1 > > You guys really know how to welcome someone back to work after three > weeks away. :) > > I know there's a tendency to say, hey, let's not "split" up. But I would > suggest that this is more about expanding than splitting. I have joined the > TriDJUG Google Group and look forward to the first meeting. > > I have all the same concerns I'm sure many of us do, that is: > > 1) TriZPUG has had programs and solicits programs for all things Python, > including Python web frameworks, libraries, and products. We've had > presentations on Django, TurboGears, Pylons, BFG, Repoze, and of course > Zope and Plone. > > 2) About one quarter of all the meetings we've ever had have been at a > local Django development firm. > > 3) We have two members working furiously on hosting a TriZPUG Django Boot > Camp and have had informal organizational meetings to further that. > > 4) We established ourselves on meetup.com so that we could make sure the > keyword "Django" had some representation in the Triangle, among other > things. We did this in hopes Django people would start coming to TriZPUG. > > 5) We have had more solicitation amongst ourselves for Django presentations > at our meetings than any other topic. We'd really like to have more Django > presentations at TriZPUG than have to go to yet another meeting. > > 6) It's never a good thing for a Python web framework's community to work > in isolation from other Python web frameworks, libraries, and products. The > Python web community is working towards a holistic Python web ecology > instead of separate silos. I just came back from Plone Conference where > there were talks about how Django and Plone work together. Joel Burton just > gave the PyCon New Zealand keynote this week entitled, "Why Python Web > Frameworks are Changing the Web," and it was all about how Python is > becoming just one big web library instead of a bunch of framework silos. > > 7) The only Python web framework which seems to have trouble with this idea > of web ecology is Django. It is brittle and doesn't play well with > pluggable components. Whenever this is pointed out, or it is pointed out > that there may be better Python solutions for some web use cases than > bespoke sites, top Django bloggers get apoplectic and start saying things > which make themselves look foolish in the wider Python community. > > 8) The propensity for isolation in the Django community has brought them > suffering. Regularly we see Django plugging security holes which were > discovered and solved more than a decade ago in the wider Python web > community. But the plugging of said holes is announced with great fanfare > and pride as if to demonstrate a lack of awareness that these problems have > already been solved. > > 9) Lack of awareness has caused the Django community to often mislead > people new to Python or Python web frameworks. PyCon is full of Django > people talking about how the Zope people are disconnected from the Python > community, seemingly ignorant that the first ten years of PyCon were hosted > by Zope people, that the PSF was founded by Zope people (heck, look at the > mailing address for the PSF), and that the predecessor to the PSF actually > funded the development of Zope so that Python would have an application > server. All of the truly old Python greybeards know Zope is what led the > development of Python into the 21st century. We go to PyCon and hear the > Django folks with their new shoes asking where all the Zope people are > right under the noses of all the Zope people because a) they don't see Paul > Everrit, b) some Django folks stacked all the talks in favor of Django, and > c) the Django folks choose PyCon as the occasion for their major sprints > and get an inflated sense of their relative importance from it. > > 10) The Django echo chamber within the Python community has led to a > PHP-like "program the web in 24 hours" Python subculture of half-baked > mash-ups and web kerts which cheapen other Python web frameworks supporting > the tougher problems of the web. People attacking the tougher problems of > the web seem to be seen by the Django community as "too complicated" or > "not agile." Although, having a web framework for web noobs within the > palette of Python web offerings is not always a bad thing. :) > > 11) Tendency to isolation, lack of awareness, and the echo chamber effect > have been destructive to the Python community in other cities. I know of > one city where the Python group is led by some of the smartest people in > Python, who bend over backwards to make sure their meetings are geared > towards people new to Python. They have about five people who come to their > meetings while a brand new Django group in that same city pulls in about 30 > people every month, who just pack a bar and gab about who won what > contract. The community building exercise seems lost on these Django groups > in the same cities with PUGs. Idunno, maybe it's a good thing that those > folks go segregate themselves. But I think there's a better way for > everybody. > > 12) I haven't noticed that occurring in cities with dual Python and Plone > user groups. Having a Django group in a city with a ZPUG group is kind of > like having a "Just Plain Java" web group in a city with a JUG because the > JUG group has people who talk about Tomcat. Plone, however, is a product. > It makes sense that there are BEA and Websphere user groups in the same way > that it makes sense that BEA and Websphere people might rather just meet as > a JUG. > > 13) We purposely have a ZPUG because Zope is *the* application server for > Python. I don't find Java people who are put off because Java has an > application server, even though there are "Just Plain Java" web frameworks. > I always recommend to people starting Python groups to start a ZPUG because > there is strength in numbers and diversity. I like Python movements in > cities which head off the creation of separate Plone user groups. > Designating a ZPUG is a sneaky way of corralling that tendency to split. > I notice that Python groups which don't do this soon have a Plone user > group in the same city. I'm convinced that's not good for Plone people > and other Python people simply point to it and say, look, I told you > those Zope people really aren't part of the Python community. > > 14) TriZPUG was co-founded by a Plone core developer. It was hosted in the > first three years of its existence at a Zope shop at NCSU. This gave some > people the impression that it is a Zope/Plone group (some people have > jokingly called it the Triangle Zope and Plone Users Group), and certainly > we have our Zope/Plone people *mainly because the Zope and Plone people are > responsible for most of the Python around here*. But the other cofounder > was > *not* a Zope or Plone person and we have begged and begged every Django > person we can find to make Django presentations at TriZPUG to not much > avail. > It is almost like Django people are not interested in any stage where they > can't own the entire stage. I find it really strange that when Django folks > want to have some presentations, they feel like they have to go somewhere > else other than where people have been begging for them. > > 15) The Django community seems more about building websites for its own > sake than solving problems with web technologies. The whole > uber-frameworkiness of Django suggests most of the effort goes into > building web sites, and then deciding how to use the sites later. You can > see this happen with any Django user group that builds their own website as > opposed to spending five minutes installing Plone and posting a meeting > announcement. I can point you at a Python user group startup in a > metropolitan area larger than ours that failed in the last year because a) > all of their energy went into the web framework which was supposed to > promote their meetings instead of having and promoting their meetings > through a working collaborative web site, and b) they took measures to make > sure their local Zope and Plone people had no role in developing the group > or the site. They let one Plone person make a presentation and then just > said, OK, we've already had our Plone meeting, don't need any more. > > 16) Django finally got some Zope 3 components into their code base. > I think it was even a Plone component. We'd like to encourage this > nascent opportunity for component reuse in the Django community so > that they might benefit from the orgy the rest of the Python world > is having. > > 17) I made a change to ZopeSkel a month ago. Much to my surprise, it broke > somebody's Django project. He submitted a patch. We decided to make some > architectural changes to ZopeSkel to make it easier for Django people to > use. This is the kind of ecology we want to promote. > > Despite all those concerns that we have at one time or another talked about > amongst ourselves, I see some overriding factors in TriDJUG's favor: > > 1) This is all governed by the Law of Two Feet. People will shuffle to the > social formations which meet their needs, no matter what we think for > ourselves. > > 2) TriDJUG seems pretty aware of this. The invitation says things like they > would have talks "whenever someone proposes it." That's very much in the > spirit of TriZPUG's shotgun rules for meetings. > > 3) The activities stated on their invitation seem mostly about having > sprints and coctail gatherings. How could anyone be against that? > > 4) They have highlighted TriZPUG events on their mailing list. Their > twitter channel follows TriZPUG. > > 5) Messages on their mailing list indicate they want good relations with > TriZPUG. > > 6) They politely came to TriZPUG to inform us of their plans. TriZPUG is > founded on the shotgun principles. If you want to do something in TriZPUG, > all you have to do it declare shotgun. What's good for the goose is good > for the gander. If someone invites you to a dinner party, you can decline > the invitation. But it would be rude to tell someone you don't approve of > them having their own dinner parties if you don't feel like coming. > > 7) If some among you wanted to start having separate Plone meetings in > addition to TriZPUG meetings, I'm sure no one would object. In fact, > TriZPUG *does* have Zope/Plone sprints, sponsor Zope/Plone events, and have > informal gatherings of Zope/Plone people. Even, say, just the Zope/Plone > people in Chapel Hill: http://trizpug.org/gallery/uncplone-1206/ > > The difference is, all those people have been highly involved in TriZPUG. > > I think all the objection is simply because TriZPUG is starved for Django > presentations and we don't want to have to add yet another meeting to our > calendar in order to get them. But if there are people who are willing to > make Django presentations and they want to organize meetings, I say more > power to them. Really, I want to see Django activity here so badly that I > *will* go to yet another meeting. Vote with feet, not mouths. > > On preview, Tobias's suggestion that TriDJUG come give their presentations > at TriZPUG gets +1000 from me. Remember, it's shotgun rules. If you have a > presentation, you simply declare that you are giving the presentation at > the regular meeting in month X. You don't wait for an invitation. You don't > ask for permission. You don't ask who would be interested. You just do it > and the meeting announcement will bind to you. Magically. With ponies. And > rainbows. > > Chris Rossi, we have seven years invested in the TriZPUG brand name. Next > to DZUG and BayPiggies, we're probably the most well known Python user > group in the world. The available alternatives seem clunky. (BTW, a good > half of the BayPiggies really hate their name. They thought "PIG" is too > un-enterprise or something about that important. They've had excessive > numbers of horrible flame wars on the topic. It got so bad that the people > who wanted a different name were "invited" to go start their own group > under the shotgun rules, which they did, and it failed within two months.) > > In Python we have rules for picking and sticking with names for things. I > think we're done and we're carrying on with what other people graciously > started for us. I think if you want TriPy, then you announce when and where > you are going to start holding TriPy meetings and see how many feet follow > you and if it's worth it. Because there's a crazy amount of infrastructure > work to be done just to change the name. And not work you can just say, > "OK, I'll do it," because there are any number of people involved that will > need to help you get into that infrastructure. It makes me shudder to think > how many hours I'd have to spend on making that happen. > > I even do a lot of work with trying to help people set up Python user > groups in other cities and I *always* advise on starting a ZPUG and not > just a PUG. ZPUG does not seem to scare off the other non-Zope web people, > just the Django people. I think they can get over it. It would be healthy > to get over it. > > And as for non-web Python people, over 90 percent of Pypi are web packages > or in support of web packages. It's a fact of life that Python is a > web-centric language like Perl and Ruby. People who have that fear that > they might rub elbows with web people need to get over it, too. If we > change the name, then I think we need to go start a separate Zope user > group and maybe a separate Plone user group, too. (And if you think that's > a good idea, look at how well it worked in the Bay area when they tried > it.) Maybe separate BFG and WSGI groups, too. Definitely TriCherryPy. > > Anyway, it is highly unrealistic to promote the idea that if you come to a > Python user group meeting, the content of the meeting is going to be geared > most of the time to what you are already doing and only what interests you. > Python is far to broad for that. I like the idea of the big tent, as well > as the acknowledgment of who it was that brought us to the dance in that > tent. It would be making an unsupportable statement to change the name of > the group. > > There's going to continue to be an emphasis on Zope within TriZPUG, even if > there is an increase in the emphasis on Django, not because of the name > TriZPUG, but because of the shotgun rules and the Law of Two Feet. The > presence of Zope and Plone people in TriZPUG has been what has made it > strong. Heck, I'm a Plone person. But when I look at the topics of the 20 > presentations I've made to TriZPUG, less than half of them have been about > Zope and/or Plone. It's been mostly Python by me. > > So I'm all -11 for a name change. > > Really, I'd like to see the energy that would go into changing the name put > instead into something like nailing down the meeting location reservations > for the next year, posting meeting announcements in the wide variety of > places we need them posted, raising sprint/sponsorship/scholarship funds, > devising new boot camps, helping manage the web site/mailing list/irc > channel/meetup.com, etc.. Things that really matter. > > If there are people out there who have the energy to make extra > presentations, meetings, sprints, gatherings, etc., that's what matters. > We need that. > > Cheers, Chris > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > > > End of TriZPUG Digest, Vol 19, Issue 9 > ************************************** > -- Cofounder and CEO ifPeople - Innovation for People t: 678-608-3408 x16 www.ifpeople.net blog.ifpeople.net From volcimaster at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 03:04:58 2009 From: volcimaster at gmail.com (Warren Myers) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:04:58 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Topics other than the web? What?!? That's heresy! How about UGoPATri - User Group of Python Aficionados - Triangle? Or, if that's too convoluted, TriPy sound cool, too :) WMM On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > All, > > Recent discussion has reminded me that we really ought to drop the 'Z' from > the name of this group. I understand there's already a TriPUG that's PHP > developers, so maybe a fun creative discussion of what to call ourselves, > but I think emphasizing that the group is about Python programming not just > Zope or Plone or even web programming. I know it's hard to believe, but > we've had some interesting talks on topics that don't involve the web. > There are actually other problem domains out there. > > So any ideas on how to communicate a desire to include the entire Python > ecosystem? TriPIG (Gary Poster's suggestion) has kind of a ring to it. > > Thanks, > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > -- Warren Myers http://warrenmyers.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/warrenmyers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbryan at python.net Tue Nov 10 06:08:29 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (Tom Bryan) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:08:29 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200911100008.29689.tbryan@python.net> On Monday 09 November 2009 18:35:29 Chris Calloway wrote: > the other cofounder was *not* a Zope or Plone person *poof!* What the heck? I was eating dinner and suddenly...oh...ah, I see. Chris must have called random.choice(trizpug.getFounders()). > You guys really know how to welcome someone back to work after three > weeks away. :) I assume that everyone else is still reading through Chris's message. (Whew!) I'm going to chime in here with multiple replies. I'll be as brief as possible. Some of Chris's message was critical of what "Django people" are doing. I take that as a reflection on his interaction with Django folks in the broader Python community, where Chris is quite active, outside of the Triangle. (And, to some extent, to Chris being tired after a long trip.) I do not think that he meant it as a criticism of our own Django folks except maybe to prod them to get some talks together for the rest of us! His attitude there seems to be best summarized by this part of his reply: > I know there's a tendency to say, hey, let's not "split" up. But I would > suggest that this is more about expanding than splitting. I have joined the > TriDJUG Google Group and look forward to the first meeting. I did speak with...um...okay. I don't remember your names. Maybe it was with Tobias? And Paul? Anyway, after the last meeting, I talked with a few of the TriZPUG's Django guys about what they were doing. Maybe Tobias's message didn't phrase it this way, but what we discussed then was pretty much what Paul said in this thread: a Django group for networking, socializing, and sprinting with Django folks, and Django talks every quarter or so at the regular TriZPUG meetings. In that discussion, I mentioned that the TriZPUG was *originally* (way back in 2002) mostly straight Python talks. Not much Zope and no Plone at all. As Chris said, the TriZPUG tilted more toward Zope/Plone later because there simply happens to be a lot of Zope/Plone work among the Python developers in the Triangle and because those developers happen to be the ones willing to present things at meetings. At one point, we used to make an effort to do non-Zope topics every other month, and I believe that Chris has actually worked hard to prevent the TriZPUG from becoming a Plone-only forum. > 14) TriZPUG was co-founded by a Plone core developer. Kind of true. That was actually later. At the time, Geoff was just starting to use Zope. I actually have the e-mail that started it all in front of me. :) (Hello, my name is Tom, and I am a pack rat.) I'm not sure that he had even heard of Plone at that time. I also remember when he gave the first Plone talk at a TriZPUG (over a year after we started the group). > But the other cofounder was *not* a Zope or Plone person I sometimes think of myself as the only founder. Geoff was always more of an instigator than a founder. ;-) > 13) We purposely have a ZPUG because Zope is *the* application server for > Python. Maybe that's why you keep it there, but I originally put it there as more of an accident. The original reason was Geoff was looking for a Zope/Python group in the Triangle. So, I created a Zope/Python group in the Triangle. If I had been creative enough to think of it, I would have totally gone with TriPython instead. :) I think that I was just imitating "trilug", and I didn't like a name with "pig" in it. I don't have an objection in principle to a name change, but I don't think that it's practical. As Chris says elsewhere, the name is known in certain circles outside the Triangle area. TriZPUG is the name of this group, and Chris and others have been very active in representing that name in the broader Python community. I don't think that "rebranding" the group is worth the effort at this point. Perhaps we could change the blurb on the trizpug.org home page to indicate that all Python-related topics are fair game for meetings: Python the language, modules, products, Zope, Plone, Django, Pylons, Jython, etc. > Designating a ZPUG is a sneaky way of corralling that tendency to split. I personally think that this big tent philosophy has been *very* important to the longevity and longterm viability of this group. > 6) They politely came to TriZPUG to inform us of their plans. TriZPUG is > founded on the shotgun principles. If you want to do something in TriZPUG, > all you have to do it declare shotgun. Ah...see, I didn't get that "I call shotgun" reference at first. I thought that Chris was showing country boy origins. Like, the guy with the shotgun gets to decide what we do. ;-) > On preview, Tobias's suggestion that TriDJUG come give their presentations > at TriZPUG gets +1000 from me. +1. As I said, this is what we had discussed after the October TriZPUG meeting. Regards, ---Tom From tbryan at python.net Tue Nov 10 06:09:35 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (Tom Bryan) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:09:35 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> And for those who didn't make it to the end of Chris's mammoth message, this gem was at the very end. > Really, I'd like to see the energy that would go into changing the name put > instead into something like nailing down the meeting location reservations > for the next year, posting meeting announcements in the wide variety of > places we need them posted, raising sprint/sponsorship/scholarship funds, > devising new boot camps, helping manage the web site/mailing list/irc > channel/meetup.com, etc.. Things that really matter. > > If there are people out there who have the energy to make extra > presentations, meetings, sprints, gatherings, etc., that's what matters. > We need that. I organized the TriZPUG for years. It's not always a ton of work, but it is *work*. That is, it's not the fun "let's play with technology" kind of time. It's scheduling rooms. Administering servers. Lining up topics. etc. Chris has done an incredible job at taking over the reins of the TriZPUG. I didn't ask for a successor. Chris just appeared and slowly took over the organizational work. He had a vision for where this group could go, and he has made it happen. Not single-handedly, of course. A user group is always a bit of a "if you build it, they will come," but Chris has made the TriZPUG into more than I ever imagined it would be. If had been left to me, the TriZPUG probably would have collapsed completely by now. Be glad that Chris came along when he did! Unfortunately, Chris is perhaps too polite. There is a variety of work to keep this group ticking, and I have a feeling that Chris ends up doing too much of it himself. We do not want Chris to burn out because then we'll suddenly realize how much he was doing behind the scenes. If we split up this work, no one will have too much to do. The demands on your time will come and go, depending on what's going on, but just pitching in an hour per month on an ongoing basis could go a long way to making this group even more vibrant. It would also help spread some of the organizational power of the group. Otherwise, Chris becomes the single point of failure. Just because we have enough Python core committers now that no one fears for Guido's life, there are still killer roaming buses to worry about. ;-) Old-school-python-ly yr's, ---Tom From fwierzbicki at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 14:27:48 2009 From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (Frank Wierzbicki) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:27:48 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> On another thread Chris Calloway soundly rejects the idea of a new name with a truckload of great points. Personally I think that amounts to a BDFL pronouncement around here :) -Frank From cbc at unc.edu Tue Nov 10 18:42:16 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:42:16 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Can_we_change_our_name=3F?= In-Reply-To: <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:27:48 -0500, Frank Wierzbicki wrote: > On another thread Chris Calloway soundly rejects the idea of a new > name with a truckload of great points. Personally I think that amounts > to a BDFL pronouncement around here :) I want to soundly reject the idea of a TriZPUG BDFL. I was just stating my preference and trying to provide a rationale for it because I think I would be highly impacted by a name change. BTW, tripy.org is taken by some domain squatter in Montreal. I looked into registering it some time ago. And it is still owned. You are all Comandante Zapata. It's not the guy with the shotgun. It's *whoever* calls shotgun: http://www.svbug.com/shotgun_rules.txt (BTW, "BAD" means "Bay Area Debian." I've been posting that link to this list regularly for years.) We've operated under a somewhat looser interpretation of those rules. For instance, our meeting places are sort of fixedso that there is less confusion, less email traffic, fewer people getting lost, less figuring out yet another parking situation, etc.. But we don'r require having formal speakers for meetings and anyone who wants to speak simply says they are instead of asking for permission. Just call shotgun. I do try to spread things around as much as I can find people willing to accept the responsibility. The meeting happened last month because Brad Crittenden (bac) stepped up to the bar, including making announcements on trizpug.org. He and Josh have both done that in the past. It's because of bac that we've been meeting every third month at Carrboro Creative Coworking lately. Mark Biggers has been doing more with the managing the email list. bac and jjmojojjmojo have been doing more to handle the IRC channel. Sometimes people have assumed responsibility and then had other things, sometimes family issues, come along to take their attention away. I used to depend more on a couple of other people for meeting announcements but life has taken them in other directions now. We just watch each others' backs to make sure things don't fall through the cracks. I will usually wait to see if somebody else does things in a timely manner. If nobody does, I might call up the last person who did the thing that needs getting done and ask them if they are still going to do it this month. Most often, that works. If it doesn't, I either fill in the slack or ask around until I find someone who will. If I find someone who used to do a thing now repeatedly needs prompting to keep doing that thing and my prompting does not seem to have much effect, then I sometimes look for someone else to nag. That is, I call shotgun when no one else does. If that's somebody's idea of a BDFL, great. It's just not mine and I don't want anybody getting the idea that is the case. I call the people who do things to make TriZPUG happen "facilitators." There isn't and hasn't been a single point of failure. If I get hit by a bus, there would just be one less person nagging other people and fewer messages on the email list. You will notice that meetings happen whether I am present or not. This is because I am not a single point of failure. Brad is. :) Basically, anybody who repeatedly shows up and demonstrates commitment is handed the keys to TriZPUG. We have over ten administrators of trizpug.org. Some of them use their power. Some have to be prodded. Some don't. It's all about showing up over and over again and being a self-starting doer. That strategy has worked pretty well. It seems to have the minimum amount of overhead, administrivia, and bureaucracy of any user group effort I've ever seen and I've been a part of one user group or another since 1978. I think the worst thing we could do is acknowledge someone as BDFL. Because then that person *does* by designation become the single point of failure and the permission giver and the person who is expected to do it all. If you look here: http://trizpug.org/#acknowledgments you will see TriZPUG is really a *large group* effort. BTW, here is Tom Bryan announcing TriZPUG creation in July 2002: http://www.zope.org/Members/tbryan/news/trizpug_announce Here is the first message on the (old) email list: http://starship.python.net/pipermail/triangle-zpug/2002-August/000000.html The first meeting was Tuesday, October 8, 2002 at Veritas Software in RTP. Geoff Davis gave a presentation on, ahem, Plone. There were 12 people present. The after meeting was at Jamaica Jamaica. This was our "website" for the first couple of years: http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Members/tbryan/TriZPUG/FrontPage The current TriZPUG.org was create on August 8, 2004. Somebody say something about Python. All this navel gazing is tiring. Cheers, Chris From cbc at unc.edu Tue Nov 10 20:00:42 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:00:42 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] http://twitter.com/trizpug Message-ID: After some late night diddling with DTML, calendar and news feeds have been added to our Twitter channel. If you prefer to get the feeds directly, they are: News: http://trizpug.org/news_rss?portal_type=News+Item&review_state=published Calendar: http://trizpug.org/event_rss?portal_type=Event&review_state=published BTW, I just did the craziest thing. Did you know that you can now easy_install Zope2? You must use either Python 2.6 to do this. It's advertized to work on Python 2.5 but actually doesn't because some scripts use the "with" keyword. Cheers, Chris From josh_johnson at unc.edu Tue Nov 10 19:27:11 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:27:11 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05E4AD82-9AAC-4CE2-898B-F969C7B257EC@unc.edu> On Nov 10, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Chris Calloway wrote: > Basically, anybody who repeatedly shows up and demonstrates > commitment is > handed the keys to TriZPUG. We have over ten administrators of > trizpug.org. > Some of them use their power. Some have to be prodded. Some don't. > It's all > about showing up over and over again and being a self-starting doer. > This is exactly why I'm for keeping things the way they are (name, structure, etc), and integrating Django as much as we can (or as much as Django people want). Maybe we need to set up an auto-posting reminder to the list about the shotgun rules (by "auto" I mean a real person who "gets it" just keeps re-iterating it, besides Chris C.) , and how they apply (in a very workable awesome way) to this group. Chris, has anyone ever written up an article or blog post about how this works, and how it's worked for us as a group? I think maybe newcomers are a bit (or a lot) scared of what it all means, and could use some sort of testimonial guide :) We're used to groups and clubs being wrought in bureaucracy, obligations, cliques, and other b/s nobody likes. While I can't speak for the greater python community or any of it's sub-cultures (or other Triangle groups), I can say from first hand experience that this group is free from all of that, and by design. It's really hard for people to get that (it took me a while and, honestly, I'm still a bit reluctant to volunteer for stuff even if I really want to do it) JJ p.s. Yes, I'm going to write that article if nobody else has :) From fwierzbicki at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 20:58:26 2009 From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (Frank Wierzbicki) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:58:26 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4dab5f760911101158l6a34b3e8g2c944686b0b89691@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Chris Calloway wrote: > I want to soundly reject the idea of a TriZPUG BDFL. Withdrawn, sorry! > Somebody say something about Python. All this navel gazing is tiring. +1 -Frank From david at handysoftware.com Tue Nov 10 23:20:48 2009 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:20:48 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? Message-ID: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> All of the recent talk about TriZPUG being for users of any Python web framework or none at all reminds me, I'd like to present on MoinMoin some time. It's going to get a little crazy the next couple of months with the holidays, so I'm basically announcing my intent to present (is that how shotgun rules work?) but when exactly when I present depends on how meeting times match up with family schedule. Why MoinMoin? * Do you want a content management system with through-the-web editing, user-editable pages, easily uploading/retrieving of regular files, etc? * Do you need hierarchical security with complete control over who edits or sees any thing? * Is your web hosting really limited, like CGI only? * Is the organization you are supporting small so you want something light? Say, just for you or your family? * But, you want your system to be able to scale up to thousands of users if it ever had to? Using well-known software used by successful organizations like python.org, apache.org, and debian.org? * Would you like the content management system to be themeable so you can completely redo the look and layout if you desire? * But, are you kind of non-motivated to customize the theme if you don't have to, and want it to work well out-of-the-box? * Do you like the idea of your content being stored in regular files that make sense even without the application server to interpret them? (Easy backups, could write your own conversion/migration scripts without guidance, etc.) * Do you want to be able to customize the system with extremely straightforward Python code, using a well-defined extension system that works over different versions of the system? * Would you like to be able to easily create several instances of your content management system on the same server with almost zero increase in resource usage (memory and processor)? * Would you like those instances to easily share a user database, or not, at your option? "Single-signon" or not, at your option? * For some crazy reason would you need your content management system to have "single signon" with an existing PHP app, that, much as you despise it, is where everyone is registered already? * Have you tried Zope/Plone and found it too complicated or resource-intensive for your needs? If your answer to some of the above questions is yes, then believe it or not, MoinMoin might be for you. http://moinmo.in/ Yes, it's a wiki, but it can be so much more. I use it every day at work and at home. I used it as part of the registration management system for a regional homeschooling conference with hundreds of attendees. Since I don't hear anyone else talking about it, it must be some kind of best-kept secret, and I'm willing to blow its cover. So when/where are the next couple of meetings? Thanks, David H -- David Handy Computer Programming is Fun! Beginning Computer Programming with Python http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/ From tbryan at python.net Wed Nov 11 14:31:19 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (T. Bryan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:31:19 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFABCA7.4040108@python.net> Chris Calloway wrote: > The first meeting was Tuesday, October 8, 2002 at Veritas Software in RTP. > Geoff Davis gave a presentation on, ahem, Plone. Really? Ow. I should have checked my archives on that one. > This was our "website" for the first couple of years: > http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Members/tbryan/TriZPUG/FrontPage Wow. I didn't even realize that page was still around. Cool. :) Should I make a copy/archive of those pages on trizpug.org just in case we lose them on zope.org? > The current TriZPUG.org was create on August 8, 2004. > Somebody say something about Python. All this navel gazing is tiring. I got Jython checked out, and I think that I set up a functioning Eclipse project with it. It was pretty straightforward, and I updated the Jython wiki with the steps that I used. I still need to poke around a bit more, but I'm going to see what writing an Eclipse plug-in in Jython is like. (Someone asked about it at the October meeting.) ---Tom From josh_johnson at unc.edu Wed Nov 11 14:47:09 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:47:09 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> Message-ID: <06876E21-7867-4802-845F-280EA08015B7@unc.edu> David Handy wrote: > It's going to get a little crazy the next couple of months with the > holidays, so I'm basically announcing my intent to present (is that > how > shotgun rules work?) but when exactly when I present depends on how > meeting > times match up with family schedule. > Nope, this is not how it works. :P > So when/where are the next couple of meetings? > This is what you should have asked first. Then, pick a meeting you can come to, and make your intent to present _at that meeting_ known. No need to convince anyone, or justify it. Nobody will argue (really!)*. We can even handle multiple presentations! The meetings, if we know where they're going to be, will be posted at http://www.trizpug.org/ , as are the usual meeting locales and meeting frequency.. to quote said site: """ TriZPUG meetings are either at Duke, UNC or Carrboro Creative Coworking, or NCSU depending on what we feel like in any given month, usually on the fourth Thursday with a special holiday meeting in early December. We could probably meet at your place if you feel like having us over. We'll even bring the chips and dip. See the Calendar portlet to the right of this paragraph or our Meetings page for meeting announcements. """ If nobody's scheduled one or figured out where it'll be hosted, offer to host! We are not shy about meeting at your house if you don't have a conference room you can get to after hours ;) (I'm only partially kidding) JJ * I haven't seen anyone try, but you might get some backlash if you try to give a talk about something way off-topic, like your personal private feelings about the way jello wiggles. But seriously, people will probably not argue that. I know I wouldn't ;) p.s. I tried to send this twice from home and it never went through *crossed fingers* I apologize if this ends up being a tripple posting :P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fwierzbicki at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 15:47:42 2009 From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (Frank Wierzbicki) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:47:42 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Jython and Eclipse [was: Can we change our name?] Message-ID: <4dab5f760911110647w338a5b5s5794058b8e5e3194@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:31 AM, T. Bryan wrote: > I got Jython checked out, and I think that I set up a functioning Eclipse > project with it. ?It was pretty straightforward, and I updated the Jython > wiki with the steps that I used. ?I still need to poke around a bit more, > but I'm going to see what writing an Eclipse plug-in in Jython is like. > (Someone asked about it at the October meeting.) Let me know how that goes or if you have any trouble (I'm not at all familiar with Eclipse plugins, but I can help with Jython questions :) -Frank From cbc at unc.edu Wed Nov 11 16:34:10 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:34:10 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> Message-ID: <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> On 11/10/2009 5:20 PM, David Handy wrote: > All of the recent talk about TriZPUG being for users of any Python web > framework or none at all reminds me, I'd like to present on MoinMoin some > time. Excellent! > It's going to get a little crazy the next couple of months with the > holidays, so I'm basically announcing my intent to present (is that how > shotgun rules work?) but when exactly when I present depends on how meeting > times match up with family schedule. So, I'm out sick right now, and I've been away from work on business for almost a month. So I'm having a bit of trouble dealing. But the this coming fourth Thursday is Thanksgiving. So we have to do that November dance again where we move up a week to the 19th (shotgun!), which is only a week and a day away. November and December are the problem months for scheduling meetings. And we're having trouble with the Raleigh/NCSU locations, which are next in the rotation, because I have to keep prompting and the announcements doesn't get made until the day before or something not compatible with participation. But let me see what I can do on the prompting bit in the next day or so. Is the 19th good for you to present MoinMoin? We have traditionally had a holiday party meeting in December. I'm calling shotgun for the 17th. Even though this has always fallen in Chapel Hill in the past, a rift in the time-space-meeting continuum has made December go to Duke/Durham this year. I'll work with Bendy to see what we can come up with. Maybe with some help from Robert Petrusz we could finally have a meeting at the Franklin Center, which has party facilities that could also host a meeting/presentation. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From cbc at unc.edu Wed Nov 11 17:41:14 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:41:14 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <05E4AD82-9AAC-4CE2-898B-F969C7B257EC@unc.edu> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> <05E4AD82-9AAC-4CE2-898B-F969C7B257EC@unc.edu> Message-ID: <4AFAE92A.7000906@unc.edu> On 11/10/2009 1:27 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: > Yes, I'm going to write that article if nobody else has :) I think you just called shotgun. Have at it. I haven't written anything, no. I've given lightning talks at PyCon about it. Everytime there is a boot camp here and we get out-of-towners asking how to start their group, I give "the talk." And whenever someone asks on the Python usergroups list about how to start a group, I give some form of "the talk." But I don't have a blog and don't want one (I'd eventually feel compeled to blog about something which would piss somebody off in a way I don't have time to deal with). So I haven't blogged it and writing "articles" is way beyond my time limitations. On TriZPUG.org there is just a mention of "loose organization" and "We could probably meet at your place if you feel like having us over. We'll even bring the chips and dip." I've been reluctant to do more than that because then it gets more dogmatic about rules, whereas playing it by ear is what we do best. I guess we need something that delineates what we do from what Bay Area Debian states as shotgun rules. Like, we try to have fixed places in addition to fixed times, although we have had to be flexible about both due to hosting commitments and holiday schedules (i.e., playing by ear). We don't meet in restaurants or bars until after the meeting because we actually do need things like projectors, screens, and networking. We've historically tried to meet at the big three universities on a rotating schedule so that we could have some hooks into university resources. Although, again, we've been playing that by ear. Capstrat hosted us when we didn't have anyone at NCSU with a enough stake in TriZPUG to be able to depend on without prompting. And meeting at Carrboro Creative Coworking has been been helpful in the parking department (even if the meeting room is sometimes too small for us). That is, I've never been able to sufficiently articulate all the minor tweaks we have to the explicit statement made by Bay Area Debian. It seems if our rules were that hard and fast, we'd soon enough not be having meetings because of the flexibility required. But I do hate it that people have to come and hang out with TriZPUG for awhile before they "get it" that we aren't some incorporated hierarchy, even though we state as much directly at the top of TriZPUG.org. I got dragged into going to some meetings of a technical organization once where the person dragging me refused to articulate the unofficial ground rules and purpose of the organization, simply telling me that if I'd come, I'd eventually "get it" and that is was really for me. By the time I figured out what they were about and doing, which was not at all something I supported, they'd imposed a whole buncha mess in my lap and I really try to avoid those people now. So I think it is good to have some kind of statement, even if it is only "Python zealots," "loose organization," and "chips and dip." What I want to avoid is the kind of mailng list that fifty percent of all the Python groups out there have, which is aruging over where and when to meet, who is going to present what, who's in charge, who's coming or not, how to get on the security list to get in the building, etc.. I don't have time for that kind of mailing list or that kind of group anymore than I have time for a group ruled by a cabal. And the more we navel gaze, the more we become that kind of group. So onto solutions... I think what would help most is if I get with the location facilitators to try to nail down the meeting location/schedule for the year in advance. We did that two years ago and it worked really well. We were able to do that because we had a highly committed Duke facilitator who just went out and did it. He's got things going on now that interfere with his ability to do that now. I'm just grateful for all the tremendous assistance he has given us. So in order to do that now, We will probably need to go back to Capstrat in Raleigh in order to do that, because the NCSU folks indicated they cannot reserve a room until two weeks after a semester starts. And as students, things get transitory in the summer and from year to year. Even placeholder announcements are OK enough to make that work, though. As far as Chapel Hill/Carrboro goes, I'm happy with Carrboro Creative Coworking if we can get the access to projector cable and network things worked out. Going to CCC has made me realize that I need to be less dogmatic about meeting at universities. Universities, particularly UNC and Duke, have really crappy parking availability. Parking at NCSU Centential Campus has been pretty eash. But Capstrat has really nice digs and at least Paul would always say "Yes" when I asked to have a meeting there at the last minute. We just need to get the projector/network thing worked out there as well. We've got a new Duke facilitator now who has indicated his willingness to do what we need to have meetings there. It's been a bit of an adjustment trying to find the place and parking, though. But I think having an open call for presentations on all the dates showing all the places in 2010 would be a good thing again. So I'll be working on that instead and you can blog about shotguns. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From tbryan at python.net Wed Nov 11 18:03:38 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (T. Bryan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:03:38 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Jython and Eclipse [was: Can we change our name?] In-Reply-To: <4dab5f760911110647w338a5b5s5794058b8e5e3194@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dab5f760911110647w338a5b5s5794058b8e5e3194@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFAEE6A.3000403@python.net> Frank Wierzbicki wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:31 AM, T. Bryan wrote: >> I got Jython checked out, and I think that I set up a functioning Eclipse >> project with it. It was pretty straightforward, and I updated the Jython >> wiki with the steps that I used. I still need to poke around a bit more, >> but I'm going to see what writing an Eclipse plug-in in Jython is like. >> (Someone asked about it at the October meeting.) > Let me know how that goes or if you have any trouble (I'm not at all > familiar with Eclipse plugins, but I can help with Jython questions :) Hey, thanks. Yeah, I know a lot about plug-in development. Most of it just involves knowing the Eclispe APIs, but the tricky part is setting up the plug-in project correctly so that Eclipse can generate the plug-in and run it. I normally rely on Eclipse to do that, but that's all set up for a Java project, of course. So, it may take me a while to figure out how to get all of these plug-in pieces working with Jython in the mix. I don't have a reason to do it other than that I thought it would be kind of cool. :) I probably need to look at the Jython docs and create a couple of standalone Jython apps first. Then, at least, I'll know a little bit more about how running Jython on the JVM. If this works, then it should be possible to create a new project type for Eclipse that would be a Jython Eclipse Plug-in Project. My interest is actually more along the lines of Eclipse Monkey, which was sort of like Firefox's Grease Monkey for Eclipse. It was announced at EclipseCon in 2007, I think. There was even a PythonMonkey version of it: http://code.google.com/p/jrfonseca/wiki/PythonMonkey. From what I'm reading, it looks like the larger project died, but it should be possible to make something like this work. I think that the problem is that hard-core Eclipse developers are comfortable enough using Java. There's no reason to script the platform in other languages. So, I think that many of them aren't interested in it. On the other hand, it seems like end users would be very happy to have an easy way to tweak things without creating an entire plug-in project in Java. We'll see. It should be a small enough effort just to see a Jython Eclipse plug-in go and to document something for other Jython users to follow in the future. I let you know if I get stuck, ---Tom From cbc at unc.edu Wed Nov 11 16:11:36 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:11:36 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <4AFABCA7.4040108@python.net> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> <4AFABCA7.4040108@python.net> Message-ID: <4AFAD428.6060908@unc.edu> On 11/11/2009 8:31 AM, T. Bryan wrote: > Chris Calloway wrote: > >> The first meeting was Tuesday, October 8, 2002 at Veritas Software in >> RTP. >> Geoff Davis gave a presentation on, ahem, Plone. > > Really? Ow. I should have checked my archives on that one. Forgiveable. Because the archives show you missed the first meeting. :) >> This was our "website" for the first couple of years: >> http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Members/tbryan/TriZPUG/FrontPage > > Wow. I didn't even realize that page was still around. Cool. :) > > Should I make a copy/archive of those pages on trizpug.org just in case > we lose them on zope.org? I think you just called shotgun. At least, that's how I interpret "should I?" questions in a TriZPUG context. I've wanted to do just that for a really, really long time. Because not having it on trizpug.org makes our institutional memory look shorter than it is. This recently led another ZPUG which is younger than us by over two years to make a public claim that they were the first and oldest ZPUG. Not True! TriZPUG is the oldest ZPUG. July 25, 2002 is our birthday. It is becoming more urgent to copy this over because zope.org is about to undergo yet another overhaul any day now without warning. The current zope.org will be copied to old.zope.org. And our institutional memory is already on the current version of old.zope.org (although it doesn't look like it). I don't know if the impending copy means that the current old.zope.org will be lost or overwritten or not. Anyway, there a no guarantees that the old TriZPUG files on zope.org won't become even more inaccessible in the near future. So, Tom, if you want to be the agent insuring our history remains available, please have at it with my thanks. You are a site manager and have all the permissions you need to structure this however you want. I always had delusions I was gonna recreate old meeting announcements for the /meetings page and create some /about page which contained a TriZPUG history. But I think even just grabbing copies of that zope.org stuff and uploading it as files just to protect them suffices for low hanging fruit. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From mrevoir at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 20:37:59 2009 From: mrevoir at gmail.com (Mike Revoir) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:37:59 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Chris Calloway wrote: We have traditionally had a holiday party meeting in December. I'm calling > shotgun for the 17th. Even though this has always fallen in Chapel Hill in > the past, a rift in the time-space-meeting continuum has made December go to > Duke/Durham this year. I'll work with Bendy to see what we can come up with. > Maybe with some help from Robert Petrusz we could finally have a meeting at > the Franklin Center, which has party facilities that could also host a > meeting/presentation. > I can host at the DCRI if Ben or Robert cannot. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Wed Nov 11 21:38:30 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:38:30 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Want_to_present_on_MoinMoin=2C_when_are_the_n?= =?utf-8?q?ext_couple_of_meetings=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> Message-ID: <65b99a556955f0fc997bbaf6ab8e6847@email.unc.edu> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:37:59 -0500, Mike Revoir wrote: > I can host at the DCRI if Ben or Robert cannot. Glad to see you back in commission! I'd be very interested in getting North Duke Pavillion back in the rotation because the room is large and the parking situation is ideal. I assume this is the location meant by DCRI? If so, can we put you down for the three month rotation through 2010. For you that would be third Thursdays at 7pm for March, June, and September? I would think that December 2010 would need to be on the third Thursday (the 16th). It's not the Ben or Robert cannot host. It's that I had heard you to say you needed to back off for awhile due to some personal matters. If it would be better for you personally not to host, we can do that. But if you *want* to host, I think DCRI has been the best location we've ever had to meet at and I would be most interested in meeting there regularly again. I still want to talk to Robert about this coming Dec 17th, because we might be able to have some, uh, holiday "punch" at the Franklin Center. We have in the past at Nicholas School, too. I spoke to Paul today and he is checking on the fourth Thursdays of 2010 for Capstrat. That would be fourth Thursdays of February, May, August, and third Thursday in November 2010. I'm waiting to hear back from the Alexes about next week at NCSU. Paul has agreed to be the backup location if that doesn't come through in time for a timely announcement. But there will be a meeting in Raleigh next week. So as far as 2010 goes, let's see what Brad has to say about CCC for January, April, July, and October. Then we'd be covered with three fixed locations with easy parking for the whole year. And we could put this unpythonic discussion to bed for another year. :) Cheers, Chris From mrevoir at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 22:26:20 2009 From: mrevoir at gmail.com (Mike Revoir) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:26:20 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <65b99a556955f0fc997bbaf6ab8e6847@email.unc.edu> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <65b99a556955f0fc997bbaf6ab8e6847@email.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Chris Calloway wrote: > I'd be very interested in getting North Duke Pavillion back in the rotation > because the room is large and the parking situation is ideal. I assume this > is the location meant by DCRI? Yes, DCRI is the Duke Clinical Research Institute. Our main building is North Pavilion. > If so, can we put you down for the three month rotation through 2010. For you that would be third Thursdays at 7pm for March, June, and September? I > would think that December 2010 would need to be on the third Thursday (the > 16th). > Sign me up! > I still want to talk to Robert about this coming Dec 17th, because we might > be able to have some, uh, holiday "punch" at the Franklin Center. We have > in the past at Nicholas School, too. > Yeah, there's no punch allowed in the North Pavilion, so that'd be great if it was the case else where. I don't need to have the lock on Duke locations if Ben or Robert would like to host, but I'd like to keep Duke in the rotation. Have a good night, Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbryan at python.net Thu Nov 12 05:47:50 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (Tom Bryan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:47:50 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <4AFAD428.6060908@unc.edu> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911091145j1bdc4ec7qb59f157904924959@mail.gmail.com> <4dab5f760911100527l789540bfs3f6d9ed10b62edc1@mail.gmail.com> <4AFABCA7.4040108@python.net> <4AFAD428.6060908@unc.edu> Message-ID: <4AFB9376.30108@python.net> Chris Calloway wrote: >> Really? Ow. I should have checked my archives on that one. > Forgiveable. Because the archives show you missed the first meeting. :) Do they? I thought that I remembered seeing Geoff give a talk at the original VERITAS location. >>> This was our "website" for the first couple of years: >>> http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Members/tbryan/TriZPUG/FrontPage >> >> Wow. I didn't even realize that page was still around. Cool. :) >> >> Should I make a copy/archive of those pages on trizpug.org just in >> case we lose them on zope.org? > > I think you just called shotgun. At least, that's how I interpret > "should I?" questions in a TriZPUG context. I grabbed a copy of the 17 meeting announcements from the zope.org site and the wiki markup from the main page and the visitor log. I *think* that's all of the content from that site. I haven't put it up at trizpug.org, yet. I'll have to take a look at what's the best way to create that content at trizpug.org. > I've wanted to do just that for a really, really long time. Because > not having it on trizpug.org makes our institutional memory look > shorter than it is. Understood. At least I have a copy now in case they kill the content on zope.org. > You are a site manager and have all the permissions you need to > structure this however you want. I always had delusions I was gonna > recreate old meeting announcements for the /meetings page and create > some /about page which contained a TriZPUG history. But I think even > just grabbing copies of that zope.org stuff and uploading it as files > just to protect them suffices for low hanging fruit. OK. I'll probably recreate the meeting announcements as News Items and add the meetings to the meetings page. That seems like the right way to preserve that content. I'm not sure where I'll put/reformat the old wiki page. Anyway, I'll let you know when I'm done. Regards, ---Tom From justis.peters at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 09:13:02 2009 From: justis.peters at gmail.com (Justis Peters) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 03:13:02 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] [Fwd: [Trilug-announce] Nov 2009 Meeting: Postgres 8.4] Message-ID: <4AFBC38E.10500@gmail.com> Since some of the TriZPUG members also use PostgreSQL, I thought you might appreciate knowing about tonight's TriLUG meeting. The meeting is Thursday, Nov 12 2009 7PM at Red Hat's headquarters (on NCSU's Centennial Campus). I hope to see you there! Kind regards, Justis -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [TriLUG] Nov 2009 Meeting: Postgres 8.4 From: Kevin Hunter To: Triangle Linux Users Group General Discussion Hullo List, It's that time of the month again ... TriLUG Meeting time! Come listen to Andrew Dunstan discuss some of the cool new features of the recently released version (v8.4, July) of the Postgres database. And, as Andrew is on the development team, we may get a glimpse of what is in the works for 8.5. If you aren't aware of the kinds of problems that Postgres handles, you may be in for surprise. Postgres is behind the scenes of some major projects, including Cisco, Debian, MySpace, OpenStreetMap, Skype, and Yahoo! Meeting links: http://trilug.org/wiki/Meetings_Schedule -> "Postgres 8.4" http://trilug.org/node/98 Hope to see you (this) Thursday at 7p! Kevin _______________________________________________ Trilug-announce mailing list http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug-announce -- TriLUG mailing list : http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG FAQ : http://www.trilug.org/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions From david at handysoftware.com Thu Nov 12 14:07:35 2009 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:07:35 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> Message-ID: <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:34:10AM -0500, Chris Calloway wrote: > Is the 19th good for you to present MoinMoin? Yes, I am available to present next week. David H -- David Handy Computer Programming is Fun! Beginning Computer Programming with Python http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/ From pmclanahan at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 17:02:29 2009 From: pmclanahan at gmail.com (Paul McLanahan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:02:29 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> Message-ID: <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> Wow. I like to just first say that I feel loved :) And I do mean that in all seriousness. It's very nice for people to come out and tell you that they want to hear from you. From my perspective, a lot of the reason I thought a separate list for Django specific stuff was a good idea is that I didn't want to clutter the larger TriZPUG list with a lot of technical Django and general web development specific chatter. I was thinking that if we could keep that off to the side so as not to annoy the TriZPUG with a lot of questionably on-or-off-topic posts, but then keep the presentations there and announce any Django sprints or camps or whatever, that it would be best for all involved. But what I'm hearing is that you don't mind, and in fact want all of the Django stuff on the main list. I really appreciate that. I do still think that with the popularity of Django these days among people who aren't necessarily "Python people," that a site, or list, or something out there with the word "Django" in the title might be a good low-bar entry point for them into the greater Triangle Python community. But I also agree with a lot of what Chris brought up in reference to the current state of the Django community and their chosen isolation. I certainly don't want to be "that guy", and I have no intention of trying to diminish, take away from, or in any way alter this group. And if you are really serious about wanting all of the Django talk, tech question threads, and general template, AJAX, HTML, CSS, jQuery (web) stuff kept on the TriZPUG list, then I'll be more than happy to be the first to point people on the TriDjUG list to this one for more help with their questions. Thanks for the lively discussion. Paul From cbc at unc.edu Thu Nov 12 17:41:28 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:41:28 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Want_to_present_on_MoinMoin=2C_when_are_the_n?= =?utf-8?q?ext_couple_of_meetings=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <65b99a556955f0fc997bbaf6ab8e6847@email.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:26:20 -0500, Mike Revoir wrote: > Sign me up! Thanks! Cheers, Chris From josh_johnson at unc.edu Thu Nov 12 17:52:33 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:52:33 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Paul McLanahan wrote: > I do still think that with the popularity of Django these days among > people who aren't necessarily "Python people," I think this is the crux of the whole issue. IMHO, if you're a Django person, you *need* to be a python person. If you're not a python person, that should be your goal. I understand that Django offers a low barrier to entry and that people who aren't programmers use it as a primary focus of their work (even though, personally, I think that's a delusion). That said, I don't think TriZPUG is full of elitist super programmers*. Nobody should be intimidated by us. I saw this a lot when I was primarily a PHP developer (close to 10 years). I felt it personally when I was but a young programming padawan. What I realized though, was if I gave up my pride and fear of looking stupid and started hanging out with people I thought were good, and asking the stupid questions, I'd get better. The idea of making my own group of non-elite quasi-super programmers so I don't feel bad that I wasn't born with compiler code in my DNA is kind of silly. Just getting really good at being mediocre doesn't help anybody. But that's just my take on things. What was it that Edie Brickell said about Philosophy? :P Anyway, +1 for more talks about Django on the list, more presentations at meetings, and talking about other web stuff (nobody will complain). If you're really concerned, add OT: to the beginning of your posts about HTML or AJAX or whatever. It seems to work for the TriLUG list, and they've got a organizational board and stuff :) JJ * emphasis on the elitist part here, I think we're all super :D From tobias at caktusgroup.com Thu Nov 12 18:08:57 2009 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:08:57 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8101bb810911120908x5af659fdx2ee45742a8e86f5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Josh Johnson wrote: > > On Nov 12, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Paul McLanahan wrote: > >> I do still think that with the popularity of Django these days among >> people who aren't necessarily "Python people," >> > > I think this is the crux of the whole issue. IMHO, if you're a Django > person, you *need* to be a python person. If you're not a python person, > that should be your goal. Agreed, but you are preaching to the choir. :) I am +100 all of what you say, but I think the issue is about getting more Django developers on the TriZPUG list in the first place and, on a broader scale, making it easier to realize the wealth of experience and support that can be found in the Python community, and help Django projects do more in terms of how their code can actually be "good Python" instead of "some app I threw together in 5 minutes because Django is so easy to learn." On that note I still do believe, to reiterate what Paul said, that something with "Django" in the name is a Good Thing(tm). If nothing more, as a shepherd to bring folks into TriZPUG. Cheers, Tobias -- Tobias McNulty Caktus Consulting Group, LLC P.O. Box 1454 Carrboro, NC 27510 (919) 951-0052 http://www.caktusgroup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at handysoftware.com Thu Nov 12 18:34:47 2009 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:34:47 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:47:46AM -0500, Chris Calloway wrote: > If you need to have your laptop hooked to the projector so you can show > code and run a shell, that's another thing. The host can accommodate. The > host just needs to know in advance. Yes, I'd like to have my laptop hooked to the projector so I can demonstrate installing and running MoinMoin on the laptop. It would be a big plus if I could also connect my laptop to the internet. Do we know the host yet for this meeting? David H -- David Handy Computer Programming is Fun! Beginning Computer Programming with Python http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/ From josh_johnson at unc.edu Thu Nov 12 18:56:51 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:56:51 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911120908x5af659fdx2ee45742a8e86f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> <8101bb810911120908x5af659fdx2ee45742a8e86f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0FADD291-2D88-444A-8FC2-F995CC985119@unc.edu> On Nov 12, 2009, at 12:08 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > > I am +100 all of what you say, but I think the issue is about > getting more Django developers on the TriZPUG list in the first > place and, on a broader scale, +1 :) > > On that note I still do believe, to reiterate what Paul said, that > something with "Django" in the name is a Good Thing(tm). If nothing > more, as a shepherd to bring folks into TriZPUG. > I'm still a little weary of that personally, but +1 on the general idea, I think what you're doing with the google group and twitter directly addresses this goal and that's really great. Maybe, instead of changing the name of TriZPUG as some have suggested*, we take the emphasis out of the "UG" part of the Django specific stuff. I don't know what exactly, maybe just something like "Triangle Django Users" and then mention heavily that we're all part of the TriZPUG group and point people to the TriZPUG list and website (and meetings). The name probably doesn't matter, but if we want to bring more focused groups under our wing (which I think we all want), and share resources, we don't want there to be any confusion about the affiliation. JJ * my suggestions were jokes, in case that wasn't clear :D From chris at christophermrossi.com Thu Nov 12 21:55:06 2009 From: chris at christophermrossi.com (Chris Rossi) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:55:06 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <0FADD291-2D88-444A-8FC2-F995CC985119@unc.edu> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> <8101bb810911120908x5af659fdx2ee45742a8e86f5@mail.gmail.com> <0FADD291-2D88-444A-8FC2-F995CC985119@unc.edu> Message-ID: <60bf02c00911121255w97df57bv88dde917e883dd5@mail.gmail.com> I thought people liked the idea of "TriZPUG presents: Triangle Django Meetup" or something similar? Chris On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: > > On Nov 12, 2009, at 12:08 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > >> >> I am +100 all of what you say, but I think the issue is about getting more >> Django developers on the TriZPUG list in the first place and, on a broader >> scale, >> > > +1 :) > > > >> On that note I still do believe, to reiterate what Paul said, that >> something with "Django" in the name is a Good Thing(tm). If nothing more, >> as a shepherd to bring folks into TriZPUG. >> >> I'm still a little weary of that personally, but +1 on the general idea, > I think what you're doing with the google group and twitter directly > addresses this goal and that's really great. > > Maybe, instead of changing the name of TriZPUG as some have suggested*, we > take the emphasis out of the "UG" part of the Django specific stuff. I don't > know what exactly, maybe just something like "Triangle Django Users" and > then mention heavily that we're all part of the TriZPUG group and point > people to the TriZPUG list and website (and meetings). The name probably > doesn't matter, but if we want to bring more focused groups under our wing > (which I think we all want), and share resources, we don't want there to be > any confusion about the affiliation. > > JJ > > * my suggestions were jokes, in case that wasn't clear :D > > > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lbk at imagescape.com Thu Nov 12 23:54:23 2009 From: lbk at imagescape.com (Lisa King) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:54:23 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Any possibility of remote attendance? Message-ID: <89467c490911121454y628b41f1p321a76f7703121f7@mail.gmail.com> I am keenly aware of the contradictory nature of wanting to participate in a local users' group remotely, but I am located in Albemarle, NC and you guys are the closest there is, and I would love to attend meetings but can't manage that drive as a general rule. Any chance of attending by skype or gotomeeting or some such? (I confess it was all the talk of django that roused me from my lurking status to make this query.) Lisa King ------------------------------ Creative Partner Imaginary Landscape www.imagescape.com www.chicagodjango.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Fri Nov 13 02:37:23 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:37:23 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:02:29 -0500, Paul McLanahan wrote: >I do still think that with the popularity of Django these days among people who aren't necessarily "Python people," I know enough Django to know there's no way you can do Django and not be a Python person of some kind. > But I also agree with a lot of what Chris brought up in reference to the current state of the Django community and their chosen isolation. Chris Johnson asked if there is a Plone "subgroup" within TriZPUG. There isn't. Plone people within TriZPUG participate with all the Python stuff and all the talk about other frameworks, and when they need to do their own thing, they just go sprint with themselves or have lunch or coctails or whatever. Plone folks are first class TriZPUG citizens and we'd like Django folks to assume the same. We're against software ghettos. When I look at what's going on with separate Plone or Django user groups in other cities, I see people who are always having to make special efforts to reach out and connect or coordinate with their local Python communities instead of being a prima facie part of those Python communities. Chris Rossi came with me to a Plone Conference in DC a year ago. Mark Ramm was there. Chris was amazed that a major TurboGears luminary was at a Plone Conference. But, of course, Mark was there as part of the greater WSGI collective of Python web frameworks and works on a number of projects with Zope people. Plone people love Mark Ramm. One of the reasons we love him is because he gets it when it comes to Python web frameworks and working together. And within a few days, Chris himself was off working on a different Python web framework, BFG, that he learned about at the Plone Conference Sprint from a guy who works with Mark Ramm all the time. And then Chris spent the next year making a living with BFG. There were a number of sprints on other Python web frameworks at the most recent Plone Conference just last week. There are Python people who don't do web work at all but who come to Plone Conference because there is a lot of cool Python going on there. That's the way Python web frameworks are supposed to work. Together. With each other. Each with its own use case. If your use case is a bespoke site with an RDBMS store that implements a recipe box style application (the Rails sweet spot, but in Python), then Django is probably one of a few good choices. The Python web professionals among us want to have that solution available to us with the same kind of community we are already used to with other Python web frameworks. The new hotness is Plone as a content management back-end to a Django presentation front-end. Still, the Law of Two Feet applies. If people feel that they need Django in a name of something in order to participate in it, then it will happen. I just hope they know they will be creating a new software ghetto, which will soon have two jobs instead of one (Django and connecting with another community), will have the added burden of maintaining yet another communications and meeting infrastructure, will probably lose some valuable participation from TriZPUG people who don't have time for both, and will probably deprive TriZPUG of some Django wisdom it wants and needs. I think the best way to get Django people participating in TriZPUG is for the Django people in TriZPUG, or Django people who say they will be participating in TriZPUG, to start making a lot of Django noise in TriZPUG. We know from experience that you can get the word out on the street that TriZPUG is the place to meet people who do Python web framework X simply by doing it at TriZPUG. We know that formula works. > And if you are really serious about wanting all of the Django talk, tech question threads, and general template, AJAX, HTML, CSS, jQuery (web) stuff kept on the TriZPUG list, then I'll be more than happy to be the first to point people on the TriDjUG list to this one for more help with their questions. We already have that. Django is not special in that regard. All Python web frameworks deal with those things. Bring it on. You might be amazed at what people here are already doing with those things. Did you know that Plone originated an Ajax framework with CSS-like syntax and has been sharing it with Django people (http://kssproject.org/)? You would if you have been coming to TriZPUG meetings because we've had two meetings about it. And certainly people here would benefit from knowing what Django people are doing with those things. There's nothing that's pure Python. Python is just a means to an end to manipulate other things like HTML and CSS and web requests of all kinds. In fact, that's what Python is used for probably ninety percent of the time. The pure Python user group would be pretty boring. I want to see those Django questions. There are already a load of Django people on this list. They are probably waiting for you to say something Django. And I want to hear those Django talks. Since we started talking about this, I'm still waiting for someone to call shotgun on a Django talk at a TriZPUG meeting. It's harder than you might think. Anyway, if you go the sense that you are being welcomed and even sought after, then you got the right message. I think TriZPUG would be much less of a user group without Django citizens. I think that's what we are really saying. The only caveat I would offer is that most web framework questions on this list are usually better being asked on the list for the whole worldwide community of that framework. That is, a Plone question stands a much better chance of getting a good answer on the Plone-users list, where there are many more Plone experts, than on the TriZPUG list, where there are only a few wannabe experts. :) The user group is more for sharing what you are doing with Python in hopes of finding like minded people than for using as free consulting. There are few enough of us here in the consulting business, much less the free consulting business. Most of us have some sort of applied Python job. And in order to provide free consulting, we have to stop doing that job and research questions instead. If someone here knows the answer to a question, it is usually by coincidence of having had the same problem before, or because a consultant sees the question and treats it as marketing opportunity to make a new friend. The smaller the group of people those kinds of questions are presented to, the less likely the question will find an answer. But from time to time, we have been able to help each other with some questions. Certainly having more people to answer them locally helps. Cheers, Chris From josh_johnson at unc.edu Fri Nov 13 13:42:46 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:42:46 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911121255w97df57bv88dde917e883dd5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> <8101bb810911120908x5af659fdx2ee45742a8e86f5@mail.gmail.com> <0FADD291-2D88-444A-8FC2-F995CC985119@unc.edu> <60bf02c00911121255w97df57bv88dde917e883dd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2CD2E7E8-AEAA-4077-B265-A18E9C8C1F86@unc.edu> On Nov 12, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Chris Rossi wrote: > I thought people liked the idea of "TriZPUG presents: Triangle > Django Meetup" or something similar? > > Isn't that what I just said? ;) JJ From tbryan at python.net Fri Nov 13 15:02:23 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (T. Bryan) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:02:23 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] informal Triangle Django Users Group starting In-Reply-To: <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8101bb810911090910n1ca96c4cr21348ba1a6e16358@mail.gmail.com> <60bf02c00911091006u144cf53fif75d00058febff87@mail.gmail.com> <200911100009.35506.tbryan@python.net> <21096c180911120802x1d3cee55u130fd5639ff526a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFD66EF.3040809@python.net> Paul McLanahan wrote: > From my perspective, a lot of the > reason I thought a separate list for Django specific stuff was a good > idea is that I didn't want to clutter the larger TriZPUG list with a > lot of technical Django and general web development specific chatter. "Premature optimization is the root of all evil." ;-) Let's not solve this problem until it really becomes a problem for the list. > alter this group. And if you are really serious about wanting all of > the Django talk, tech question threads, and general template, AJAX, > HTML, CSS, jQuery (web) stuff kept on the TriZPUG list, then I'll be > more than happy to be the first to point people on the TriDjUG list to > this one for more help with their questions. Yes, keep it here. It really hasn't become a problem with the Plone posts here, for example. I doubt that it will become a problem with the Django posts. What I find is that some people feel more comfortable asking questions of people they've met instead of on some giant, open, worldwide forum or newsgroup. But most folks will eventually decide that they can tap a deeper well of experience by posting to those larger (non-local) Python, Plone, Django, etc. forums. Or they get going on this board with something and then decide, "Hey, we're all local. Let's have a sprint to go through some of this together." In either case, the list doesn't get flooded. And if it does, that's what e-mail rules and filters are for. :) ---Tom From cbc at unc.edu Fri Nov 13 16:55:49 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:55:49 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Want_to_present_on_MoinMoin=2C_when_are_the_n?= =?utf-8?q?ext_couple_of_meetings=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:34:47 -0500, David Handy wrote: > Yes, I'd like to have my laptop hooked to the projector so I can > demonstrate > installing and running MoinMoin on the laptop. It would be a big plus if I > could also connect my laptop to the internet. > > Do we know the host yet for this meeting? OK, I didn't hear back from the NCSU folks, and I just spoke with Paul. The meeting next Thursday will be at Capstrat at 7pm. Announcements forthcoming today. Paul is making sure you will be able to connect your laptop to the projector and they now have a guest Internet account. Cheers, Chris From chris at christophermrossi.com Fri Nov 13 17:14:09 2009 From: chris at christophermrossi.com (Chris Rossi) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:14:09 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> Message-ID: <60bf02c00911130814j68656aa4qb7199b0c0297b8a2@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Chris Calloway wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:34:47 -0500, David Handy > wrote: > > Yes, I'd like to have my laptop hooked to the projector so I can > > demonstrate > > installing and running MoinMoin on the laptop. It would be a big plus if > I > > could also connect my laptop to the internet. > > > > Do we know the host yet for this meeting? > > OK, I didn't hear back from the NCSU folks, and I just spoke with Paul. The > meeting next Thursday will be at Capstrat at 7pm. Announcements forthcoming > today. Paul is making sure you will be able to connect your laptop to the > projector and they now have a guest Internet account. > > BTW, Capstrat is a Django shop! ;) Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbcoasis at email.unc.edu Fri Nov 13 17:15:24 2009 From: cbcoasis at email.unc.edu (cbcoasis) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:15:24 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Want_to_present_on_MoinMoin=2C_when_are_the_n?= =?utf-8?q?ext_couple_of_meetings=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> Message-ID: <9e8e811a73eecd912e6b487096113da7@email.unc.edu> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:55:49 -0500, Chris Calloway wrote: > The > meeting next Thursday will be at Capstrat at 7pm. Also, that night is a Hurricanes game night at the RBC. The game starts at 7pm also. So you'll probably need to budget some extra time to get through the traffic which will all be going to the game at the same intersection with Highway Patrol out there trying to route you into the RBC center. I believe there is a way you can sneak into Capstrat from Nowell Rd and Sunday Dr without having to get on Edwards Mill Rd, which you probably want t avoid if possible on game day. I'll check into that for y'all. Cheers, Chris From paul at blinkylights.org Fri Nov 13 17:36:54 2009 From: paul at blinkylights.org (Paul Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:36:54 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <60bf02c00911130814j68656aa4qb7199b0c0297b8a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> <60bf02c00911130814j68656aa4qb7199b0c0297b8a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFD8B26.5020902@blinkylights.org> Chris Rossi wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Chris Calloway > wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:34:47 -0500, David Handy > > > wrote: > > Yes, I'd like to have my laptop hooked to the projector so I can > > demonstrate > > OK, I didn't hear back from the NCSU folks, and I just spoke with > Paul. The > meeting next Thursday will be at Capstrat at 7pm. Announcements > forthcoming > today. Paul is making sure you will be able to connect your laptop > to the > projector and they now have a guest Internet account. > > > BTW, Capstrat is a Django shop! ;) > > Chris > Capstrat is a *Python* shop! :) --Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul at blinkylights.org Fri Nov 13 19:43:11 2009 From: paul at blinkylights.org (Paul Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:43:11 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: <9e8e811a73eecd912e6b487096113da7@email.unc.edu> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> <9e8e811a73eecd912e6b487096113da7@email.unc.edu> Message-ID: <4AFDA8BF.4050205@blinkylights.org> cbcoasis wrote: > On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:55:49 -0500, Chris Calloway wrote: > >> The >> meeting next Thursday will be at Capstrat at 7pm. >> > > Also, that night is a Hurricanes game night at the RBC. The game starts at > 7pm also. So you'll probably need to budget some extra time to get through > the traffic which will all be going to the game at the same intersection > with Highway Patrol out there trying to route you into the RBC center. > > I believe there is a way you can sneak into Capstrat from Nowell Rd and > Sunday Dr without having to get on Edwards Mill Rd, which you probably want > t avoid if possible on game day. I'll check into that for y'all. > > Cheers, Chris > Gang, There is, indeed, a Hurricanes game next Thursday at 7pm, and yes, that can slow things down along the Edwards Mill route. It's also true that you can get to Capstrat along an alternate route from Nowell, but be warned that the hockey fans also know about the back way, and that route can get just as choked down. Best thing to do might be to change our start time to 7:30, and give the hockey people a chance to clear out a little. --Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Fri Nov 13 19:57:19 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:57:19 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Want_to_present_on_MoinMoin=2C_when_are_the_n?= =?utf-8?q?ext_couple_=09of_meetings=3F?= In-Reply-To: <4AFD8B26.5020902@blinkylights.org> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> <60bf02c00911130814j68656aa4qb7199b0c0297b8a2@mail.gmail.com> <4AFD8B26.5020902@blinkylights.org> Message-ID: <165148c5701bcc7bbab6697878e0ff12@email.unc.edu> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:36:54 -0500, Paul Smith wrote: > Capstrat is a *Python* shop! :) Well played, sir. I think Capstrat has fulfilled customer requirements with a number of Python web solutions including both Django and Plone. Thanks, Paul. Cheers, Chris From cbc at unc.edu Fri Nov 13 20:27:43 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:27:43 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Want_to_present_on_MoinMoin=2C_when_are_the_n?= =?utf-8?q?ext_couple_of_meetings=3F?= In-Reply-To: <4AFDA8BF.4050205@blinkylights.org> References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> <9e8e811a73eecd912e6b487096113da7@email.unc.edu> <4AFDA8BF.4050205@blinkylights.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:43:11 -0500, Paul Smith wrote: > Best thing to do might be to change our start time to 7:30, and give > the hockey people a chance to clear out a little. In your experience, has then game traffic cleared out by then? Would we still get caught up in the Highway Patrol shuffling all lanes off Edwards Mill into the RBC Center? That game traffic backs up for miles up I-40, too. I made these maps to route down Trinity Rd and avoid Edwards Mill. Maybe we could say 7:30 *and* route people away from Edwards Mill? >From Durham: http://bit.ly/capstrat-from-durham-game-day >From Chapel Hill: http://bit.ly/capstrat-from-chapel-hill-game-day >From Downtown Raleigh: http://bit.ly/capstrat-from-downtown-raleigh-game-day >From Cary: http://bit.ly/capstrat-from-cary-game-day >From Wake Forest: http://bit.ly/capstrat-from-wake-forest-game-day >From Garner: http://bit.ly/capstrat-from-garner-game-day Cheers, Chris From paul at blinkylights.org Fri Nov 13 21:03:31 2009 From: paul at blinkylights.org (Paul Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:03:31 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Want to present on MoinMoin, when are the next couple of meetings? In-Reply-To: References: <20091110222048.GB9091@arno2> <4AFAD972.9090501@unc.edu> <20091112130735.GB30049@arno2> <5c1d8434d7cfb94be149257944819515@email.unc.edu> <20091112173447.GA3413@arno2> <9e8e811a73eecd912e6b487096113da7@email.unc.edu> <4AFDA8BF.4050205@blinkylights.org> Message-ID: <4AFDBB93.8000901@blinkylights.org> Chris Calloway wrote: > On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:43:11 -0500, Paul Smith > wrote: > >> Best thing to do might be to change our start time to 7:30, and give >> the hockey people a chance to clear out a little. >> > > In your experience, has then game traffic cleared out by then? Would we > still get caught up in the Highway Patrol shuffling all lanes off Edwards > Mill into the RBC Center? That game traffic backs up for miles up I-40, > too. > > I made these maps to route down Trinity Rd and avoid Edwards Mill. Maybe we > could say 7:30 *and* route people away from Edwards Mill? > > It won't be totally cleared out, but it's usually much better half an hour after a game starts than half an hour before a game starts. And you're right, it'll be a little easier to get here by avoiding the arena entrances along Edwards Mill. Might not be too bad... apparently the Hurricanes are playing Toronto (so probably not a lot of traveling fans), and I'm told that between them they make up the two worst teams in the NHL this year. --P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Fri Nov 13 22:10:11 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:10:11 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?TriZPUG_November_2009_Meeting=3A_Why_MoinMoin?= =?utf-8?q?=3F?= Message-ID: http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/nov-09-mtg Next TriZPUG Meeting: Thursday, November 19, 7:30pm at Capstrat, 1201 Edwards Mill Road, First Floor, Raleigh. Directions: http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/capstrat-directions David Handy will present "Why MoinMoin?" MoinMoin is an advanced, easy to use and extensible WikiEngine with a large community of users. Other talks are gladly accepted at this meeting. This meeting starts at 7:30pm due to the nearby game day traffic. See the directions link for sneaking around game day traffic. This is also a third Thursday meeting due to the Thanksgiving holiday. http://trizpug.org/Members/dhandy/why-moin-moin There will be refreshments. There will be door prizes. There will be an after-meeting at a nearby pub. Sorry, but we had to cancel the fireworks. Hope to see all Djangonauts there! Cheers, Chris From tbryan at python.net Sun Nov 15 06:18:49 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (Tom Bryan) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:18:49 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Can we change our name? In-Reply-To: <4AFB9376.30108@python.net> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4AFAD428.6060908@unc.edu> <4AFB9376.30108@python.net> Message-ID: <200911150018.49760.tbryan@python.net> On Wednesday 11 November 2009 23:47:50 Tom Bryan wrote: > >>> This was our "website" for the first couple of years: > >>> http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Members/tbryan/TriZPUG/FrontPage > >> > >> Wow. I didn't even realize that page was still around. Cool. :) > >> > >> Should I make a copy/archive of those pages on trizpug.org just in > >> case we lose them on zope.org? > > > > I think you just called shotgun. At least, that's how I interpret > > "should I?" questions in a TriZPUG context. > > I grabbed a copy of the 17 meeting announcements from the zope.org site > and the wiki markup from the main page and the visitor log. I *think* > that's all of the content from that site. I haven't put it up at > trizpug.org, yet. I'll have to take a look at what's the best way to > create that content at trizpug.org. OK. I copied the content to http://trizpug.org/Members/tbryan/Archive/. The meeting announcements were formatted back on the old zope.org wiki as "news" items, so it was easiest to keep them that way. I think that I lost the driving instructions links in the process, but at least we now have the date and topic of each meeting since we founded the user group: http://trizpug.org/meetings/. I also copied the content of the old FrontPage and VisitorLog into documents under http://trizpug.org/Members/tbryan/Archive/. I think that's all of it. If anyone notices anything missing, please let me know. It would also be great if someone could check to make sure that all of the links work and that none of the links still point to the old pages at zope.org. I think that I updated everything to point to pages within this Archive folder or to new pages hosted at trizpug.org. Doing my part to preserve institutional memory. :) ---Tom From cbc at unc.edu Sun Nov 15 18:49:08 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:49:08 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] =?utf-8?q?Can_we_change_our_name=3F?= In-Reply-To: <200911150018.49760.tbryan@python.net> References: <60bf02c00911091136h303ab962u8a5dde64dff4af69@mail.gmail.com> <4AFAD428.6060908@unc.edu> <4AFB9376.30108@python.net> <200911150018.49760.tbryan@python.net> Message-ID: <1b5dbde98625e7f285ea2dec6844a552@email.unc.edu> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:18:49 -0500, Tom Bryan wrote: > On Wednesday 11 November 2009 23:47:50 Tom Bryan wrote: > OK. I copied the content to http://trizpug.org/Members/tbryan/Archive/. > > The meeting announcements were formatted back on the old zope.org wiki as > "news" items, so it was easiest to keep them that way. I think that I lost > the driving instructions links in the process, but at least we now have the > date and topic of each meeting since we founded the user group: > http://trizpug.org/meetings/. Wow, that's quite impressive, Tom. No small amount of work. Thanks for that! Cheers, Chris From cbc at unc.edu Tue Nov 17 19:46:38 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:46:38 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] PyCon Talks Message-ID: <4B02EF8E.4070803@unc.edu> Talks for PyCon 2010 have been announced: http://us.pycon.org/2010/conference/talks/ Looks like more talks I want to see than any PyCon I can remember. Good thing it's close by in Atlanta. Among them are talks by our own Frank Wierzbicki and Gary Poster. Did I miss anybody else? -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From josh_johnson at unc.edu Wed Nov 18 17:44:47 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:44:47 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] JOB: Two Python/Plone Positions Open @ UNC Message-ID: <5494264A-343E-427F-B30C-3D7A16FA3D27@unc.edu> Hey everybody, As I mentioned at a meeting a while back, I'm building a software development team, and I've got two positions opening up. Well, they've officially been opened. https://s4.its.unc.edu/RAMS4/details.do?reqId=0911083&type=S https://s4.its.unc.edu/RAMS4/details.do?reqId=0911084&type=S We're looking for 2 mid-level Python developers that are either good with Plone or don't mind becoming really good with Plone :) We've got some existing Plone infrastructure that we really want to utilize, but we're starting from the ground up for the most part. There's potential and room here for other solutions. The emphasis is on thorough, sound programming, not the framework we use. Enthusiasm is a big plus. We don't have a dedicated sysadmin, so the whole team will be involved in maintaining and configuring the application infrastructure, so experience with that is another big plus, but not a necessity. I'm in the process of establishing that infrastructure this very minute, and my focus is on keeping the maintenance burden as light as possible. This is a *pager-free* infrastructure. We'll be strongly encouraged to document and publish our solutions in various scientific and bioinformatics journals. This is a really good opportunity to get published and get specific recognition for your work. Feel free to contact me directly for more unofficial, informal information. If you'd like to apply, you have to use the "Apply for This Position" link on the job postings. I won't be able to make tomorrow's meeting (going out of town till the 1st), but I will be checking e-mails and would be happy to talk to any interested parties (in an unofficial and informal manner) anytime :) Thanks, JJ From cbc at unc.edu Thu Nov 19 16:18:04 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:18:04 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0561AC.1050603@unc.edu> Meeting today at Capstrat. Prizes. Snacks. Fun. On 11/13/2009 4:10 PM, Chris Calloway wrote: > http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/nov-09-mtg > > Next TriZPUG Meeting: Thursday, November 19, 7:30pm at Capstrat, 1201 > Edwards Mill Road, First Floor, Raleigh. > > Directions: http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/capstrat-directions > > David Handy will present "Why MoinMoin?" MoinMoin is an advanced, easy > to use and extensible WikiEngine with a large community of users. > Other talks are gladly accepted at this meeting. This meeting starts > at 7:30pm due to the nearby game day traffic. See the directions link > for sneaking around game day traffic. This is also a third Thursday > meeting due to the Thanksgiving holiday. > > http://trizpug.org/Members/dhandy/why-moin-moin > > There will be refreshments. There will be door prizes. There will be > an after-meeting at a nearby pub. > > Sorry, but we had to cancel the fireworks. > > Hope to see all Djangonauts there! > > Cheers, Chris From tobias at caktusgroup.com Thu Nov 19 17:44:02 2009 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:44:02 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] JOB: looking for Django contractors Message-ID: <8101bb810911190844g5d90faeasd1af0839c2a7855f@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Caktus Consulting Group in Carrboro is looking for proficient Python/Django developers to join our team on a contract basis. We have a few potential projects coming up that we'll likely need help with, so we're looking for developers who'd like to pick up a little (or potentially more) work on the side. If you're interested, please review the full posting below and submit your response and/or questions to jobs+trizpug at caktusgroup.com Cheers, Tobias -------- Caktus is a seasoned web development team that specializes in agile Django development. We build custom web applications for local and remote clients using a variety of open-source technologies. We're looking for Django developers to join our team on a project basis! This position requires: - Fluency in Python and Django - Following PEP8 and Django Coding Standards - Relational database experience - HTML/CSS knowledge - Strong communication skills - Experience with version control systems - Knowledge of web standards - Residence in the U.S. Bonus points for: - Experience with JavaScript and jQuery - SQL and PostgreSQL fluency - Experience with Linux environments Please include the following in your response (incomplete applications will not be considered): - Your resume - Links to or attachments of example Django code - Live, working examples of several Django sites you?ve developed - Your expected hourly compensation -- Tobias McNulty Caktus Consulting Group, LLC P.O. Box 1454 Carrboro, NC 27510 (919) 951-0052 http://www.caktusgroup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Thu Nov 19 19:53:02 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:53:02 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? In-Reply-To: <8101bb810911190726j1f0d88aj4f910da3e1797ac5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0561AC.1050603@unc.edu> <8101bb810911190726j1f0d88aj4f910da3e1797ac5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B05940E.5030008@unc.edu> BTW, one of our door prizes toinght is a copy of the brand new (this week) "Matplotlib for Python Developers" book. It has a chapter on using matplotlib in Django, which is cool. Django + scientific visualization. For free to some lucky Pythonista. Tonight at TriZPUG. Be there. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 On 11/19/2009 10:26 AM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > TriZPUG meeting is tonight in Raleigh - hope you can all make it! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Chris Calloway > Date: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:18 AM > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? > To: "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group" < > trizpug at python.org> > > > Meeting today at Capstrat. Prizes. Snacks. Fun. > > > On 11/13/2009 4:10 PM, Chris Calloway wrote: > >> http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/nov-09-mtg >> >> Next TriZPUG Meeting: Thursday, November 19, 7:30pm at Capstrat, 1201 >> Edwards Mill Road, First Floor, Raleigh. >> >> Directions: http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/capstrat-directions >> >> David Handy will present "Why MoinMoin?" MoinMoin is an advanced, easy >> to use and extensible WikiEngine with a large community of users. >> Other talks are gladly accepted at this meeting. This meeting starts >> at 7:30pm due to the nearby game day traffic. See the directions link >> for sneaking around game day traffic. This is also a third Thursday >> meeting due to the Thanksgiving holiday. >> >> http://trizpug.org/Members/dhandy/why-moin-moin >> >> There will be refreshments. There will be door prizes. There will be >> an after-meeting at a nearby pub. >> >> Sorry, but we had to cancel the fireworks. >> >> Hope to see all Djangonauts there! >> >> Cheers, Chris >> > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > > > From josh_johnson at unc.edu Thu Nov 19 20:12:50 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:12:50 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? In-Reply-To: <4B05940E.5030008@unc.edu> References: <4B0561AC.1050603@unc.edu> <8101bb810911190726j1f0d88aj4f910da3e1797ac5@mail.gmail.com> <4B05940E.5030008@unc.edu> Message-ID: <82136FA7-E4EC-4ECF-9F19-06FF759A0336@unc.edu> Crap! Is there any way I can call in that automatic door prize Paul offered me last week if I'm in Florida? ;) JJ p.s. I ADORE matplotlib. I used it to write a script that generate SCRUM burdown charts :D On Nov 19, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Chris Calloway wrote: > BTW, one of our door prizes toinght is a copy of the brand new (this > week) "Matplotlib for Python Developers" book. It has a chapter on > using matplotlib in Django, which is cool. Django + scientific > visualization. For free to some lucky Pythonista. Tonight at > TriZPUG. Be there. > > -- > Sincerely, > > Chris Calloway > http://www.secoora.org > office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 > mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 > > On 11/19/2009 10:26 AM, Tobias McNulty wrote: >> TriZPUG meeting is tonight in Raleigh - hope you can all make it! >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Chris Calloway >> Date: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:18 AM >> Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? >> To: "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group" < >> trizpug at python.org> >> Meeting today at Capstrat. Prizes. Snacks. Fun. >> On 11/13/2009 4:10 PM, Chris Calloway wrote: >>> http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/nov-09-mtg >>> >>> Next TriZPUG Meeting: Thursday, November 19, 7:30pm at Capstrat, >>> 1201 >>> Edwards Mill Road, First Floor, Raleigh. >>> >>> Directions: http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/capstrat-directions >>> >>> David Handy will present "Why MoinMoin?" MoinMoin is an advanced, >>> easy >>> to use and extensible WikiEngine with a large community of users. >>> Other talks are gladly accepted at this meeting. This meeting starts >>> at 7:30pm due to the nearby game day traffic. See the directions >>> link >>> for sneaking around game day traffic. This is also a third Thursday >>> meeting due to the Thanksgiving holiday. >>> >>> http://trizpug.org/Members/dhandy/why-moin-moin >>> >>> There will be refreshments. There will be door prizes. There will be >>> an after-meeting at a nearby pub. >>> >>> Sorry, but we had to cancel the fireworks. >>> >>> Hope to see all Djangonauts there! >>> >>> Cheers, Chris >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> TriZPUG mailing list >> TriZPUG at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug >> http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > From cbc at unc.edu Sat Nov 21 03:50:01 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:50:01 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? In-Reply-To: <82136FA7-E4EC-4ECF-9F19-06FF759A0336@unc.edu> References: <4B0561AC.1050603@unc.edu> <8101bb810911190726j1f0d88aj4f910da3e1797ac5@mail.gmail.com> <4B05940E.5030008@unc.edu> <82136FA7-E4EC-4ECF-9F19-06FF759A0336@unc.edu> Message-ID: <4B075559.6000909@unc.edu> On 11/19/2009 2:12 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: > Crap! Is there any way I can call in that automatic door prize Paul > offered me last week if I'm in Florida? ;) > > JJ > > p.s. > I ADORE matplotlib. I used it to write a script that generate SCRUM > burdown charts :D Heh. Funny thing. Paul won the prize. And he says he wants to give to you. After last nights meeting and a lot of discussion concerning how it is to your advantage (and pythonic) to pick the simplest solution to any given web problem, I thought I might direct your attention to a presentation given by Joel Burton at PyCon New Zealand this month. Joel is a TriZPUG sponsor (door prizes and snacks last night were on him) who instructs our annual Plone Boot Camp. Joel's talk is entitled "Why Python Web Frameworks are Changing the Web." Here's the video. You need the best network connection you can get to watch it (home wireless will probably look jerky when streamed): http://blip.tv/file/2820538/ You can follow along with the presentation slides which are not very visible on the video. Dual monitors help: http://www.slideshare.net/joelburton/why-python-web-frameworks-are-changing-the-web Disclaimer: I am (mis)quoted and in the talk and thanked at the end. There is also a reference to TriZPUGer Chris Rossi's online WSGI tutorial in the talk. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From david at handysoftware.com Sat Nov 21 06:54:44 2009 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:54:44 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091121055444.GA26474@arno2> I enjoyed the meeting. As promised, I updated this page: http://trizpug.org/Members/dhandy/why-moin-moin with my detailed steps for how I set up MoinMoin on my laptop for the demonstration I did at the meeting: http://gw.handysoftware.com/wiki/cpif/moinmoin-lessons Thanks, David H On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 04:10:11PM -0500, Chris Calloway wrote: > > http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/nov-09-mtg > > Next TriZPUG Meeting: Thursday, November 19, 7:30pm at Capstrat, 1201 > Edwards Mill Road, First Floor, Raleigh. > > Directions: http://trizpug.org/Members/psmith/capstrat-directions > > David Handy will present "Why MoinMoin?" MoinMoin is an advanced, easy > to use and extensible WikiEngine with a large community of users. > Other talks are gladly accepted at this meeting. This meeting starts > at 7:30pm due to the nearby game day traffic. See the directions link > for sneaking around game day traffic. This is also a third Thursday > meeting due to the Thanksgiving holiday. > > http://trizpug.org/Members/dhandy/why-moin-moin > > There will be refreshments. There will be door prizes. There will be > an after-meeting at a nearby pub. > > Sorry, but we had to cancel the fireworks. > > Hope to see all Djangonauts there! > > Cheers, Chris > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group -- David Handy Computer Programming is Fun! Beginning Computer Programming with Python http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/ From paul at blinkylights.org Sat Nov 21 16:47:16 2009 From: paul at blinkylights.org (Paul Smith) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:47:16 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? In-Reply-To: <4B075559.6000909@unc.edu> References: <4B0561AC.1050603@unc.edu> <8101bb810911190726j1f0d88aj4f910da3e1797ac5@mail.gmail.com> <4B05940E.5030008@unc.edu> <82136FA7-E4EC-4ECF-9F19-06FF759A0336@unc.edu> <4B075559.6000909@unc.edu> Message-ID: <4B080B84.8030207@blinkylights.org> Chris Calloway wrote: > On 11/19/2009 2:12 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: >> Crap! Is there any way I can call in that automatic door prize Paul >> offered me last week if I'm in Florida? ;) >> >> JJ >> >> p.s. >> I ADORE matplotlib. I used it to write a script that generate SCRUM >> burdown charts :D > > Heh. Funny thing. Paul won the prize. And he says he wants to give to > you. > Josh's door prize /was/ going to a copy of Depeche Mode's greatest hits (on cassette, of course), but since I won the randint drawing, and I did nominate Josh for automatic winner, I suppose it's only right that Josh ought to have it. I suggest that Josh get the book on the condition that we can expect a matplotlib lightning talk at some point in the future. :) --P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tbryan at python.net Sun Nov 22 15:52:00 2009 From: tbryan at python.net (Tom Bryan) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:52:00 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Off topic - social networking site experience Message-ID: <200911220952.00380.tbryan@python.net> OK, a lot off topic, but I know that we have a lot of web developers here. I was wondering whether anyone had worked on any social networking software. Things like facebook, twitter, etc. Specifically, I'm interested in their schema design. For one of my projects, I may need to take a large network of inter-related objects (stored in a DB) and answer questions about them. I care less about "how many friends does X have?" and more about questions like "show the top 10 hits for users sorted by the number of their friends who are also software engineers." I may be able to get away with just supporting reports on data that's a day old, so I'm looking at data marts and star schemas and such. I was just thinking that some social networking sites may have to solve this type of problem without the time lag of a nightly ETL process. I've done some searching, but I'm not finding much. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. I come up with a lot of information about social networking sites but very little about their design. Is anyone talking about this stuff? Is it all hush hush? Or is it all technically straightforward once you have the "big idea" to create a site based around the members and their interactions? Thanks, ---Tom From glassresistor at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 16:15:10 2009 From: glassresistor at gmail.com (Michael Clemmons) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG Digest, Vol 19, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4427a97a0911220715w2fcd8351od24754edab92e1d6@mail.gmail.com> If Josh doesn't doesn't want to do it or just not do it alone I've been meaning to crack open scipi and matplot. Don't really use books for programming so not trying to grab the prize but I'd like check out python as being a viable start to CRUSH closed source science scripting languages. I'll be on irc if someone wants to chat about it. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:00 AM, wrote: > Send TriZPUG mailing list submissions to > trizpug at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > trizpug-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > trizpug-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of TriZPUG digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? > (Paul Smith) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:47:16 -0500 > From: Paul Smith > To: cbc at unc.edu, "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users > Group" > Cc: tridjug at googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why > MoinMoin? > Message-ID: <4B080B84.8030207 at blinkylights.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Chris Calloway wrote: > > On 11/19/2009 2:12 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: > >> Crap! Is there any way I can call in that automatic door prize Paul > >> offered me last week if I'm in Florida? ;) > >> > >> JJ > >> > >> p.s. > >> I ADORE matplotlib. I used it to write a script that generate SCRUM > >> burdown charts :D > > > > Heh. Funny thing. Paul won the prize. And he says he wants to give to > > you. > > > > > Josh's door prize /was/ going to a copy of Depeche Mode's greatest > hits (on cassette, of course), but since I won the randint drawing, and > I did nominate Josh for automatic winner, I suppose it's only right that > Josh ought to have it. > I suggest that Josh get the book on the condition that we can expect > a matplotlib lightning talk at some point in the future. :) > > --P > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/trizpug/attachments/20091121/f9ec78ce/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > > > End of TriZPUG Digest, Vol 19, Issue 26 > *************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Mon Nov 23 02:30:51 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:30:51 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] PyCon Poster Session Proposals Due Message-ID: <4B09E5CB.8090209@unc.edu> An addition to PyCon this year is poster session space. Relive grad school all over again. The deadline for submitting poster proposals in Monday, November 30 (next week): http://us.pycon.org/2010/conference/posters/cfp/ -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From stephan_altmueller at unc.edu Mon Nov 23 03:13:51 2009 From: stephan_altmueller at unc.edu (Stephan Altmueller) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:13:51 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Off topic - social networking site experience In-Reply-To: <200911220952.00380.tbryan@python.net> References: <200911220952.00380.tbryan@python.net> Message-ID: <4B09EFDF.2010108@unc.edu> Hi Tom, I don't have any direct experience in implementing anything like that, but I have been following articles about the implementation of social networking sites whenever I can. It seems that most sites with (like Facebook) with enormous data volumes use non-relational databases. I have seen references to "NoSQL" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoSQL) quite frequently recently. The Wikipedia article refers to the major companies with lots of data (Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc.). It also seems that graph databases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_database) are a useful approach to solving the kind of problems you are describing. Hope this helps. I would be really interested in hearing what you end up using. -- Stephan Tom Bryan wrote: > OK, a lot off topic, but I know that we have a lot of web developers here. I > was wondering whether anyone had worked on any social networking software. > Things like facebook, twitter, etc. > > Specifically, I'm interested in their schema design. For one of my projects, I > may need to take a large network of inter-related objects (stored in a DB) and > answer questions about them. I care less about "how many friends does X > have?" and more about questions like "show the top 10 hits for users sorted by > the number of their friends who are also software engineers." > > I may be able to get away with just supporting reports on data that's a day > old, so I'm looking at data marts and star schemas and such. I was just > thinking that some social networking sites may have to solve this type of > problem without the time lag of a nightly ETL process. > > I've done some searching, but I'm not finding much. Perhaps I'm looking in the > wrong places. I come up with a lot of information about social networking > sites but very little about their design. Is anyone talking about this stuff? > Is it all hush hush? Or is it all technically straightforward once you have > the "big idea" to create a site based around the members and their > interactions? > > Thanks, > ---Tom > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > > -- ------------------------------------------------- "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- George Bernard Shaw OASIS welcomes your feedback: http://oasis.unc.edu/client-feedback Stephan Altmueller Applications Analyst, Enterprise Applications Office of Arts and Sciences Information Services University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 3056, 06 Howell Hall Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3056 919.448.5936 (direct line) stephan_altmueller at unc.edu AIM: oasisaltmuell http://oasis.unc.edu/people/altmuell From josh_johnson at unc.edu Tue Nov 24 02:17:43 2009 From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:17:43 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] TriZPUG Digest, Vol 19, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: <4427a97a0911220715w2fcd8351od24754edab92e1d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4427a97a0911220715w2fcd8351od24754edab92e1d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2788C017-DDC6-4233-8E3B-8F8D45FCBA0B@unc.edu> I definitely want to do this, maybe we can team up (and even get other folks involved) and do a "python solutions to your research needs" series... We'll talk when I get back from FL. :D JJ On Nov 22, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Michael Clemmons wrote: > If Josh doesn't doesn't want to do it or just not do it alone I've > been meaning to crack open scipi and matplot. Don't really use > books for programming so not trying to grab the prize but I'd like > check out python as being a viable start to CRUSH closed source > science scripting languages. I'll be on irc if someone wants to > chat about it. > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:00 AM, wrote: > Send TriZPUG mailing list submissions to > trizpug at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > trizpug-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > trizpug-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of TriZPUG digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why MoinMoin? > (Paul Smith) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:47:16 -0500 > From: Paul Smith > To: cbc at unc.edu, "Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users > Group" > Cc: tridjug at googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] Fwd: TriZPUG November 2009 Meeting: Why > MoinMoin? > Message-ID: <4B080B84.8030207 at blinkylights.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Chris Calloway wrote: > > On 11/19/2009 2:12 PM, Josh Johnson wrote: > >> Crap! Is there any way I can call in that automatic door prize Paul > >> offered me last week if I'm in Florida? ;) > >> > >> JJ > >> > >> p.s. > >> I ADORE matplotlib. I used it to write a script that generate SCRUM > >> burdown charts :D > > > > Heh. Funny thing. Paul won the prize. And he says he wants to give > to > > you. > > > > > Josh's door prize /was/ going to a copy of Depeche Mode's greatest > hits (on cassette, of course), but since I won the randint drawing, > and > I did nominate Josh for automatic winner, I suppose it's only right > that > Josh ought to have it. > I suggest that Josh get the book on the condition that we can > expect > a matplotlib lightning talk at some point in the future. :) > > --P > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > > > End of TriZPUG Digest, Vol 19, Issue 26 > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom_Roche at pobox.com Tue Nov 24 13:25:31 2009 From: Tom_Roche at pobox.com (Tom Roche) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:25:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [TriZPUG] "python solutions to your research needs" Message-ID: <20091124122531.C6029141D1C00@cedar.isis.unc.edu> Michael Clemmons Sun Nov 22 16:15:10 CET 2009 >>> I'd like [to] check out python as being a viable start to CRUSH >>> closed source science scripting languages. Josh Johnson Tue Nov 24 02:17:43 CET 2009 >> do a "python solutions to your research needs" series... http://www.sagemath.org/ > Sage is a free open-source mathematics software system licensed > under the GPL. It combines the power of many existing open-source > packages into a common Python-based interface. > Mission: Creating a viable free open source alternative to Magma, > Maple, Mathematica and Matlab. HTH, Tom Roche From cbc at unc.edu Tue Nov 24 16:54:11 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:54:11 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] "python solutions to your research needs" In-Reply-To: <20091124122531.C6029141D1C00@cedar.isis.unc.edu> References: <20091124122531.C6029141D1C00@cedar.isis.unc.edu> Message-ID: <4B0C01A3.4020103@unc.edu> On 11/24/2009 7:25 AM, Tom Roche wrote: > http://www.sagemath.org/ Sage has a huge community of users which usually gather at SciPyCon. Another alternative is pythonxy, which is a bundle of several SciPy libraries with QT, Eclipse, and some more libraries which leverage them: http://www.pythonxy.com/ In addition to the new matplotlib book, check this one out as well: http://apress.com/book/view/1430218436 -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From cbc at unc.edu Wed Nov 25 00:13:56 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:13:56 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] PyCon Registration Is Open Message-ID: <4B0C68B4.7090601@unc.edu> http://us.pycon.org/2010/registration/ -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From cbc at unc.edu Wed Nov 25 19:40:31 2009 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:40:31 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] How to help someone use a computer Message-ID: <4B0D7A1F.9020204@unc.edu> Some pretty sage advice: http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/how-to-help.html -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599