From biggers at utsl.com  Mon Mar  3 21:27:32 2008
From: biggers at utsl.com (Mark R. Biggers)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:27:32 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] ride-share and/or room-share at Plone Symposium
	East?
Message-ID: <18380.24372.143064.89472@dexter.saiph.com>


Hi folks,

Some one (two?) of you serious Plone CMS or Plone-hackers, may be
interested in attending this conference:

  http://www.openplans.org/projects/plonesymposiumeast2008/project-home

  http://plone.org/events/regional/plone-symposium-2008
  (currently down)

  http://soar.ois.psu.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SOAR.woa/wa/campusRegister?productId=200708SP017411

  * NOTE: registration deadline is 5 March, Wednesday ! *


I am going mainly to get some Plone3 hacking time, although the Symposium
itself is of interest, of course.

I can drive from Yadkinville (about 90 mi west of Chapel Hill), straight up
I-77 to I-81 and so forth, to State College, PA.

  http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=1032+Laura+Ln,+Yadkinville,+NC+27055&geocode=&dirflg=&daddr=State+College,+PA&f=d&sll=36.136332,-80.64188&sspn=0.010068,0.012574&ie=UTF8&ll=39.393755,-78.068848&spn=4.932047,6.437988&z=7&pw=2

  (don't go exactly by the starting-point -- rural addresses are often wrong
   on Google and other Inet maps)

I will stay at a hotel "near" the Nittany Lion Inn, to cut my costs.  Sunday
will be my first full-day @ Penn State - and I will stay through the Session
days.

So if you or anyone you know is interested, please let me know.

Thank you,
----mark


 -------- .sig

  Mark Biggers

  919 481-1481 x107  TOT
  336 849-0278       home
  336 749-7055       cell

  #trizpug, irc.freenode.net

 -------- .sig
  

	     March 2008
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From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 20:50:11 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:50:11 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Frank Wierzbicki to work on Jython full time for Sun
Message-ID: <47CDA7F3.4080001@unc.edu>

Frank Wierzbicki, the local Jython lead maintainer who spoke at TriZPUG 
last fall, has been hired by Sun Microsystems to work on Jython full time:

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/03/Python-at-Sun
http://fwierzbicki.blogspot.com/

Congratulations, Frank, and good luck. Will you still be located in the 
Triangle area?

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From fwierzbicki at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 22:31:09 2008
From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (Frank Wierzbicki)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:31:09 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Frank Wierzbicki to work on Jython full time
	for Sun
In-Reply-To: <47CDA7F3.4080001@unc.edu>
References: <47CDA7F3.4080001@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4dab5f760803041331p4b149510ke77c9e3a01310746@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Chris Calloway <cbc at unc.edu> wrote:
> Frank Wierzbicki, the local Jython lead maintainer who spoke at TriZPUG
>  last fall, has been hired by Sun Microsystems to work on Jython full time:
>
>  http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/03/Python-at-Sun
>  http://fwierzbicki.blogspot.com/
>
>  Congratulations, Frank, and good luck.
Hey Chris, thanks!

>  Will you still be located in the
>  Triangle area?
I do indeed get to stay here in North Carolina.  Sun is a highly
distributed and pretty progressive company and has a very positive
attitude towards remote employees.

-Frank



From cbc at unc.edu  Wed Mar  5 17:46:00 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:46:00 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Local Opportunity
Message-ID: <47CECE48.7010306@unc.edu>

I'm passing along a request. Please respond directly to the requester, 
Robert Kraus (krausr at mail.fpg.unc.edu).

"I am needing to have a single instance of Plone with a simple 
modification installed immediately on a Windows box in order to run a 
pilot application. I am under great pressure to have this up very soon.

"I am looking for someone who is able to come to our place of business 
and manage/oversee the installation (for $$, we will pay). Once 
installed we have someone who knows the basics of Plone administration 
and site development to get our initial pilot in place.

"I have Plone v3.06 (which installs with python 2.4) up and running.  I 
have carefully gone through the steps to install a mysql-python 
connector (v2.4) and it appeared successful. I also added the zmysqlda 
to the products folder as instructed. Still, the Z MySQL Database 
Connection does not show up in the ZMI Add dropdown. This is where I am 
stuck. Additionally we need to have the PloneLDAP product installed.

"Please me know if you are interested in helping us out here."

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599




From cbc at unc.edu  Thu Mar  6 19:11:08 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:11:08 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Audio from this weeks meeting
In-Reply-To: <14728249.161251204318049030.JavaMail.root@oryx.dogstar1.com>
References: <14728249.161251204318049030.JavaMail.root@oryx.dogstar1.com>
Message-ID: <47D033BC.7050804@unc.edu>

On 2/29/2008 3:47 PM, Nick Goldwater wrote:
> A recording of last weeks meeting can be downloaded from http://src-dst.com/888/

Thanks a lot, Nick!!

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From tbryan at python.net  Tue Mar 11 04:33:18 2008
From: tbryan at python.net (T. Bryan)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:33:18 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Python opportunity at RackSpace in San Antonio, TX
Message-ID: <200803102333.18999.tbryan@python.net>

Hi, all.  I've been very busy with non-Python stuff lately, so I haven't even 
really been lurking.  :-(  Hopefully, I'll be able to get back out to one of 
the meeting soon.

Anyway, a recruiter contacted me about a position for an "Open Source 
Developer, Python, Ruby, PHP, Java - Rackspace IT Hosting" in San Antonio, 
TX.  If you or anyone you know is interested, let me know, and I'll forward 
you the recruiter's information.

---Tom



From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Tue Mar 11 15:28:42 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:28:42 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] AGX Fixes + ZopeSkel Enhancements
Message-ID: <47D6971A.1040101@unc.edu>

Hi All,
As mentioned at the last meeting, I did some work on AGX a while back. I 
finally got around to posting my changes to the issue tracker.

here's the URL: http://plone.org/products/archgenxml/issues/201

Over the weekend, I did some work on ZopeSkel. Namely, I noticed and 
finished up the `addcontent atschema` local command so that it populates 
your interface schema, your AT schema, and creates the bridge attributes 
in your content class.

And now I've just realized that it's a bit broken. Arrgh.

Anyway, I should have that fixed by next week, in the meantime, you can 
check out what I've got so far here: 
http://plone.org/products/zopeskel/issues/5/

I mentioned I'd send around the link to the process document I was 
following during my "lightning" talk, here it is:

http://www.unc.edu/~jj/plone

It's by no means complete, but I've been using it (and constantly 
updating it) and it's serving me well. It sorely needs a menu, I'm in 
the process of moving it to XML + XSLT to auto-generate it.

Cheers,
JJ



From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Mar 11 16:33:21 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:33:21 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] AGX Fixes + ZopeSkel Enhancements
In-Reply-To: <47D6971A.1040101@unc.edu>
References: <47D6971A.1040101@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <47D6A641.2080506@unc.edu>

On 3/11/2008 10:28 AM, Josh Johnson wrote:
> http://plone.org/products/archgenxml/issues/201
> http://plone.org/products/zopeskel/issues/5/
> http://www.unc.edu/~jj/plone

You are my hero.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From cbc at unc.edu  Wed Mar 12 14:53:56 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:53:56 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Wear Python
Message-ID: <47D7E074.10303@unc.edu>

If you are not going to PyCon, you can get in on the schwag. The 
official schwag vendor is online:

http://www.wearpython.com/

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From flyingfred0+trizpug at gmail.com  Wed Mar 12 22:39:09 2008
From: flyingfred0+trizpug at gmail.com (Chris Church)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:39:09 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Wear Python
In-Reply-To: <47D7E074.10303@unc.edu>
References: <47D7E074.10303@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <1ea258670803121439k36fd50c9h1d514ea9a3b52e9d@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like they're running that site with PHP and osCommerce... blasphemy!

(And I'm not just saying that because it's not Python. I customized an
osCommerce site for a client once, and ended up not being a big fan
afterwards, to say the least.)

--Chris


On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Chris Calloway <cbc at unc.edu> wrote:

> If you are not going to PyCon, you can get in on the schwag. The
> official schwag vendor is online:
>
> http://www.wearpython.com/
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Chris Calloway
> http://www.secoora.org
> office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
> mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>
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From cbc at unc.edu  Wed Mar 12 23:59:17 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:59:17 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Wear Python
In-Reply-To: <1ea258670803121439k36fd50c9h1d514ea9a3b52e9d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47D7E074.10303@unc.edu>
	<1ea258670803121439k36fd50c9h1d514ea9a3b52e9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47D86045.2070202@unc.edu>

On 3/12/2008 5:39 PM, Chris Church wrote:
> Looks like they're running that site with PHP and osCommerce... blasphemy!
> 
> (And I'm not just saying that because it's not Python. I customized an
> osCommerce site for a client once, and ended up not being a big fan
> afterwards, to say the least.)

Even better, they've been working on the site since before last year's 
PyCon.

It's a pre-existing apparel company with some pre-existing outside 
vendor working on their site. I talked to them about it over the phone 
several months ago when trying to track down some more Python sport 
shirts. I don't know how they got the PSF logo business. It would be 
great if someone at PyCon could talk them into having a go at a real site.

Their shirts are very good. I have several.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From jmack at wm7d.net  Fri Mar 14 16:20:37 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>

I'm trying to figure out the python equivalent of having a 
static list in a function. I could have the list global, but 
I assume that's no more kosher in python than anywhere 
else.

I have found how to make a module static

@staticmethod
def aStaticMethod(x, y, z):

but I don't know if this is the solution or not yet (I don't 
think I've ever had a static function). I don't need the 
function to be static, just a variable in the function.

One posting said that static variables aren't needed in 
python, that I should use module level functions, but I 
haven't found anything helpful on doing that.

Any suggestions?

Thanks Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Fri Mar 14 17:03:01 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:03:01 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>

I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a 
persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think that's 
what you want), but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that 
is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".

The latter is easy, you just put a function in a python script:

e.g. in mymodule.py:

def myfunction():
    pass

you can access it by:

 >>> import mymodule
 >>> mymodule.myfunction()

I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I think 
you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with a list 
and have that list be returned by your function and then subsequently 
passed to it again:

 >>> def myfunc(l):
...    l.append('1')
...    return l
 >>> myl = []
 >>> myl = myfunc(myl)
 >>> myl = myfunc(myl)
 >>> myl
['1', '1']

JJ

Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out the python equivalent of having a 
> static list in a function. I could have the list global, but 
> I assume that's no more kosher in python than anywhere 
> else.
>
> I have found how to make a module static
>
> @staticmethod
> def aStaticMethod(x, y, z):
>
> but I don't know if this is the solution or not yet (I don't 
> think I've ever had a static function). I don't need the 
> function to be static, just a variable in the function.
>
> One posting said that static variables aren't needed in 
> python, that I should use module level functions, but I 
> haven't found anything helpful on doing that.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks Joe
>
>   




From jmack at wm7d.net  Fri Mar 14 17:22:32 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Josh Johnson wrote:

> I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a
> persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think that's
> what you want),

yes

> but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that
> is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".

sorry, forgot about this (I guess "static" is overloaded).

> I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I think
> you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with a list
> and have that list be returned by your function and then subsequently
> passed to it again:

This doesn't seem a whole lot different to just having l 
being global, which is what I'm doing for the moment.

Thanks Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Fri Mar 14 17:39:17 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:39:17 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>

I guess a global isn't so bad, it's only really global to your package. 
There has to be some definitive answer. You might want to pose your 
question to the python tutor mailing list.

JJ

Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Josh Johnson wrote:
>
>> I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a
>> persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think that's
>> what you want),
>
> yes
>
>> but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that
>> is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".
>
> sorry, forgot about this (I guess "static" is overloaded).
>
>> I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I think
>> you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with a list
>> and have that list be returned by your function and then subsequently
>> passed to it again:
>
> This doesn't seem a whole lot different to just having l being global, 
> which is what I'm doing for the moment.
>
> Thanks Joe
>




From bradoaks at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 18:04:10 2008
From: bradoaks at gmail.com (Brad Oaks)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:04:10 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>
	<47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <df7afb5e0803141004i1b35418eu44b19a31a3b30705@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Josh,

I didn't know about the tutor list.
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor is the url for that list.

--bradoaks

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Josh Johnson <josh_johnson at unc.edu> wrote:
> I guess a global isn't so bad, it's only really global to your package.
>  There has to be some definitive answer. You might want to pose your
>  question to the python tutor mailing list.
>
>
>  JJ
>
>  Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Josh Johnson wrote:
>  >
>  >> I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a
>  >> persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think that's
>  >> what you want),
>  >
>  > yes
>  >
>  >> but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that
>  >> is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".
>  >
>  > sorry, forgot about this (I guess "static" is overloaded).
>  >
>  >> I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I think
>  >> you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with a list
>  >> and have that list be returned by your function and then subsequently
>  >> passed to it again:
>  >
>  > This doesn't seem a whole lot different to just having l being global,
>  > which is what I'm doing for the moment.
>  >
>  > Thanks Joe
>  >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  triangle-zpug mailing list
>  triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
>  http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>



From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Fri Mar 14 18:14:01 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:14:01 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <df7afb5e0803141004i1b35418eu44b19a31a3b30705@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>	
	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>	
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>	
	<47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
	<df7afb5e0803141004i1b35418eu44b19a31a3b30705@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47DAB259.3040108@unc.edu>

Thanks for posting the link, Brad. :)

I initially signed up when I was learning, but I keep an eye on the list 
even as I've gotten better with python... it's a pretty high-volume 
list, fast response to most questions. There's an emphasis on answering 
questions regardless of how elementary they may seem.

I've leaned a lot through the tribulations of others, helps me "think in 
python".. so much becomes apparent when 10 people explain a problem from 
5 different perspectives :)

JJ

Brad Oaks wrote:
> Thanks Josh,
>
> I didn't know about the tutor list.
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor is the url for that list.
>
> --bradoaks
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Josh Johnson <josh_johnson at unc.edu> wrote:
>   
>> I guess a global isn't so bad, it's only really global to your package.
>>  There has to be some definitive answer. You might want to pose your
>>  question to the python tutor mailing list.
>>
>>
>>  JJ
>>
>>  Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Josh Johnson wrote:
>>>       
>>  >
>>  >> I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a
>>  >> persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think that's
>>  >> what you want),
>>  >
>>  > yes
>>  >
>>  >> but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that
>>  >> is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".
>>  >
>>  > sorry, forgot about this (I guess "static" is overloaded).
>>  >
>>  >> I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I think
>>  >> you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with a list
>>  >> and have that list be returned by your function and then subsequently
>>  >> passed to it again:
>>  >
>>  > This doesn't seem a whole lot different to just having l being global,
>>  > which is what I'm doing for the moment.
>>  >
>>  > Thanks Joe
>>  >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>  triangle-zpug mailing list
>>  triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
>>  http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>>
>>     




From brad.crittenden at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 18:18:21 2008
From: brad.crittenden at gmail.com (Bradley A. Crittenden)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:18:21 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <81BAD632-6B1D-4E9D-B9B6-B44F82BC4D23@gmail.com>


On Mar 14, 2008, at 11:20 , Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:

> I'm trying to figure out the python equivalent of having a
> static list in a function. I could have the list global, but
> I assume that's no more kosher in python than anywhere
> else.
>
> I have found how to make a module static
>
> @staticmethod
> def aStaticMethod(x, y, z):
>
> but I don't know if this is the solution or not yet (I don't
> think I've ever had a static function). I don't need the
> function to be static, just a variable in the function.
>
> One posting said that static variables aren't needed in
> python, that I should use module level functions, but I
> haven't found anything helpful on doing that.
>
> Any suggestions?

hi joseph,

from your description it sounds like you're using python without  
taking advantage of any object oriented features.  you can do that,  
but you'll end up scratching your head about how to do 'obvious' things.

how about just making a class and setting the list as an instance  
variable?  or it could be a class variable.

here's a quick example.  'attendees' is an instance variable while  
'count' is a class variable.  you'll see the attendee set is unique  
per instance while the count has a running total.

hope this helps and i haven't misunderstood what you're trying to do.


--brad

     >>> class Sprint:
     ...     count = 0
     ...     def __init__(self):
     ...         self.attendees = set()
     ...     def add(self, name):
     ...         self.attendees.add(name)
     ...         Sprint.count += 1
     ...     def remove(self, name):
     ...         try:
     ...             self.attendees.remove(name)
     ...             Sprint.count -= 1
     ...         except KeyError:
     ...             pass
     ...     def show(self):
     ...         print Sprint.count
     ...         for attendee in sorted(self.attendees):
     ...             print attendee

     >>> s = Sprint()
     >>> s.add("Chris")
     >>> s.add("Rob")
     >>> s.add("Biggers")
     >>> s.remove('bac')
     >>> s.show()
     3
     Biggers
     Chris
     Rob

     >>> s2 = Sprint()
     >>> s2.add('fred')
     >>> s2.add('barney')
     >>> s2.add('mr. spacely')
     >>> s2.show()
     6
     barney
     fred
     mr. spacely






From philip at semanchuk.com  Fri Mar 14 18:29:52 2008
From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:29:52 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>
	<47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <C2B1A7F4-1252-4E16-9EAD-50C6895B453F@semanchuk.com>


On Mar 14, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:

> I guess a global isn't so bad, it's only really global to your  
> package.

I agree; that's the rationalization I use for using globals as  
statics. =)

> There has to be some definitive answer.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm not sure there is. Some  
features clearly defined in other languages become a matter of idiom  
in Python. Idiom is often a matter of taste, and therefore not  
definitive. A good example is the use of _foo and __foo as rough  
analogs to "protected" and "private" in classes. Some people think it  
is a bad idea, some like it, some (like Yours Truly) don't apply it  
as consistently as they might. In that example there's no definitive  
answer despite a lot of discussion on the topic.

Just a different perspective.

Cheers
P


> Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Josh Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a
>>> persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think that's
>>> what you want),
>>
>> yes
>>
>>> but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that
>>> is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".
>>
>> sorry, forgot about this (I guess "static" is overloaded).
>>
>>> I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I  
>>> think
>>> you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with  
>>> a list
>>> and have that list be returned by your function and then  
>>> subsequently
>>> passed to it again:
>>
>> This doesn't seem a whole lot different to just having l being  
>> global,
>> which is what I'm doing for the moment.
>>
>> Thanks Joe
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug




From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Fri Mar 14 19:05:08 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:05:08 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <C2B1A7F4-1252-4E16-9EAD-50C6895B453F@semanchuk.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>	<47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
	<C2B1A7F4-1252-4E16-9EAD-50C6895B453F@semanchuk.com>
Message-ID: <47DABE54.7010305@unc.edu>

I agree, but there is the style guide and "convention" which I have a 
hard time ignoring. I know the language is flexible and programmers are 
free to do what works best for them, but conventions, if their sane and 
logical language-wise, are very good things. And most of them aren't 
really apparent to people who haven't sought them out.

I think your example might be a bit flawed, from what I understand there 
are specific consequences to using underscores in names (I'm looking at 
the style guide... I don't know from first hand experience).

But I know what you mean. Maybe a better example would be the convention 
that "constants" are named in upper case? It's definitely an idiom 
(python doesn't have constants in the C sense)... but then again, even 
though variable naming is a matter of preference, there is a (weekly) 
established convention.

Maybe "definitive" wasn't such a good word? :) I think I meant it in the 
sense of "complete" as opposed to "canonical" ...."well thought out" 
instead of "final"...

JJ

Philip Semanchuk wrote:
> On Mar 14, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:
>
>   
>> I guess a global isn't so bad, it's only really global to your  
>> package.
>>     
>
> I agree; that's the rationalization I use for using globals as  
> statics. =)
>
>   
>> There has to be some definitive answer.
>>     
>
> I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm not sure there is. Some  
> features clearly defined in other languages become a matter of idiom  
> in Python. Idiom is often a matter of taste, and therefore not  
> definitive. A good example is the use of _foo and __foo as rough  
> analogs to "protected" and "private" in classes. Some people think it  
> is a bad idea, some like it, some (like Yours Truly) don't apply it  
> as consistently as they might. In that example there's no definitive  
> answer despite a lot of discussion on the topic.
>
> Just a different perspective.
>
> Cheers
> P
>
>
>   
>> Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
>>     
>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Josh Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a
>>>> persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think that's
>>>> what you want),
>>>>         
>>> yes
>>>
>>>       
>>>> but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that
>>>> is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".
>>>>         
>>> sorry, forgot about this (I guess "static" is overloaded).
>>>
>>>       
>>>> I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I  
>>>> think
>>>> you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with  
>>>> a list
>>>> and have that list be returned by your function and then  
>>>> subsequently
>>>> passed to it again:
>>>>         
>>> This doesn't seem a whole lot different to just having l being  
>>> global,
>>> which is what I'm doing for the moment.
>>>
>>> Thanks Joe
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> triangle-zpug mailing list
>> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
>> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>   




From jmack at wm7d.net  Fri Mar 14 19:06:29 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <81BAD632-6B1D-4E9D-B9B6-B44F82BC4D23@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
	<81BAD632-6B1D-4E9D-B9B6-B44F82BC4D23@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803141027590.1046@wm7d.net>

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote:

> from your description it sounds like you're using python 
> without taking advantage of any object oriented features. 
> you can do that, but you'll end up scratching your head 
> about how to do 'obvious' things.

<scratching_head>hmm, I see</scratching_head>

> how about just making a class and setting the list as an 
> instance variable?  or it could be a class variable.

I wish this had showed up in one of my google searches :-(

I wanted a static list to keep track of the history of the 
game nim that I'm using as a coding exercise for an 
introductory class in programming for 7th graders. This is 
their first piece of coding after "hello world", "hello 
world" in a function, conditional evaluation and iteration. 
I was hoping to keep track of the game history with a 
function (to show modular programming) rather than spread 
the state tracking code all over the global namespace.

I've had minimal experience with python, and had my own 
course outline ready (bash, perl, linux install and admin, 
C, C++) before I declared that I'd do the class. I had 
expected that they'd be the usual oppressed and compliant 
kids that the educational system turns out and hadn't 
expected that they'd have an opinion on what they wanted, so 
I was more than surprised to have them announce that they 
wanted python. At that stage I was committed to teaching 
them something and figured if I couldn't learn python fast 
enough to keep 2 weeks ahead of a bunch of 7th graders, I 
should take myself out the back and shoot myself.

Chris Calloway mentioned my course earlier on this list.

http://www.austintek.com/python_class/

At the moment they aren't writing code blocks more than a 
couple of lines long. I don't want to start them on classes 
until they have a lot more coding experience and can code 
blocks 20-50 lines long without external help. I hadn't 
expected that python would get this complicated so fast ;-) 
I thought static would do it for sure - it's worked 
everywhere else. It's obvious that you don't need static if 
you have an object. I'll keep your code to do a rewrite 
sometime later in the course using a game_history object.

Thanks Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Fri Mar 14 19:22:10 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:22:10 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803141027590.1046@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>	<81BAD632-6B1D-4E9D-B9B6-B44F82BC4D23@gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803141027590.1046@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <47DAC252.2020500@unc.edu>

Reading that, if I were you, I'd go with globals for now :)

But remember that everything (seriously, EVERYTHING) about python is 
object oriented. It's hard to avoid it for long...

JJ

Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote:
>
>   
>> from your description it sounds like you're using python 
>> without taking advantage of any object oriented features. 
>> you can do that, but you'll end up scratching your head 
>> about how to do 'obvious' things.
>>     
>
> <scratching_head>hmm, I see</scratching_head>
>
>   
>> how about just making a class and setting the list as an 
>> instance variable?  or it could be a class variable.
>>     
>
> I wish this had showed up in one of my google searches :-(
>
> I wanted a static list to keep track of the history of the 
> game nim that I'm using as a coding exercise for an 
> introductory class in programming for 7th graders. This is 
> their first piece of coding after "hello world", "hello 
> world" in a function, conditional evaluation and iteration. 
> I was hoping to keep track of the game history with a 
> function (to show modular programming) rather than spread 
> the state tracking code all over the global namespace.
>
> I've had minimal experience with python, and had my own 
> course outline ready (bash, perl, linux install and admin, 
> C, C++) before I declared that I'd do the class. I had 
> expected that they'd be the usual oppressed and compliant 
> kids that the educational system turns out and hadn't 
> expected that they'd have an opinion on what they wanted, so 
> I was more than surprised to have them announce that they 
> wanted python. At that stage I was committed to teaching 
> them something and figured if I couldn't learn python fast 
> enough to keep 2 weeks ahead of a bunch of 7th graders, I 
> should take myself out the back and shoot myself.
>
> Chris Calloway mentioned my course earlier on this list.
>
> http://www.austintek.com/python_class/
>
> At the moment they aren't writing code blocks more than a 
> couple of lines long. I don't want to start them on classes 
> until they have a lot more coding experience and can code 
> blocks 20-50 lines long without external help. I hadn't 
> expected that python would get this complicated so fast ;-) 
> I thought static would do it for sure - it's worked 
> everywhere else. It's obvious that you don't need static if 
> you have an object. I'll keep your code to do a rewrite 
> sometime later in the course using a game_history object.
>
> Thanks Joe
>
>   




From philip at semanchuk.com  Fri Mar 14 19:51:30 2008
From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:51:30 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <47DABE54.7010305@unc.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>	<47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
	<C2B1A7F4-1252-4E16-9EAD-50C6895B453F@semanchuk.com>
	<47DABE54.7010305@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <154ECEC7-5CFD-4D11-8D90-E950B57FA10C@semanchuk.com>


On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:05 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:

> I agree, but there is the style guide and "convention" which I have a
> hard time ignoring. I know the language is flexible and programmers  
> are
> free to do what works best for them, but conventions, if their sane  
> and
> logical language-wise, are very good things. And most of them aren't
> really apparent to people who haven't sought them out.
>
> I think your example might be a bit flawed, from what I understand  
> there
> are specific consequences to using underscores in names (I'm  
> looking at
> the style guide... I don't know from first hand experience).

Good point; a name preceded by a double underscore undergoes name  
mangling in a class.


> But I know what you mean. Maybe a better example would be the  
> convention
> that "constants" are named in upper case? It's definitely an idiom
> (python doesn't have constants in the C sense)... but then again, even
> though variable naming is a matter of preference, there is a (weekly)
> established convention.
>
> Maybe "definitive" wasn't such a good word? :) I think I meant it  
> in the
> sense of "complete" as opposed to "canonical" ...."well thought out"
> instead of "final"...

Well I hope such a consensus exists.

bye
P



> Philip Semanchuk wrote:
>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I guess a global isn't so bad, it's only really global to your
>>> package.
>>>
>>
>> I agree; that's the rationalization I use for using globals as
>> statics. =)
>>
>>
>>> There has to be some definitive answer.
>>>
>>
>> I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm not sure there is. Some
>> features clearly defined in other languages become a matter of idiom
>> in Python. Idiom is often a matter of taste, and therefore not
>> definitive. A good example is the use of _foo and __foo as rough
>> analogs to "protected" and "private" in classes. Some people think it
>> is a bad idea, some like it, some (like Yours Truly) don't apply it
>> as consistently as they might. In that example there's no definitive
>> answer despite a lot of discussion on the topic.
>>
>> Just a different perspective.
>>
>> Cheers
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>>> Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Josh Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I recall two meanings for static in programming. Static can mean a
>>>>> persistent value, like an internal counter in a list (I think  
>>>>> that's
>>>>> what you want),
>>>>>
>>>> yes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> but I've also heard the term mean "a class method that
>>>>> is accessed like a library instead of an instance method".
>>>>>
>>>> sorry, forgot about this (I guess "static" is overloaded).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure if python supports the sort of persistent variable I
>>>>> think
>>>>> you want (anybody else know?). If not, you may have to start with
>>>>> a list
>>>>> and have that list be returned by your function and then
>>>>> subsequently
>>>>> passed to it again:
>>>>>
>>>> This doesn't seem a whole lot different to just having l being
>>>> global,
>>>> which is what I'm doing for the moment.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> triangle-zpug mailing list
>>> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
>>> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> triangle-zpug mailing list
>> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
>> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug




From philip at semanchuk.com  Fri Mar 14 19:52:41 2008
From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:52:41 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <47DAC252.2020500@unc.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>	<81BAD632-6B1D-4E9D-B9B6-B44F82BC4D23@gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803141027590.1046@wm7d.net>
	<47DAC252.2020500@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <A7256654-F68B-4865-922F-D8863C5EAE58@semanchuk.com>


On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:

> Reading that, if I were you, I'd go with globals for now :)
>
> But remember that everything (seriously, EVERYTHING) about python is
> object oriented. It's hard to avoid it for long...

I agree with Josh. One way to have functions remember their values  
across invocations is via generators, but that sounds advanced for  
the second program after "hello world".


bye
P



> Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Bradley A. Crittenden wrote:
>>
>>
>>> from your description it sounds like you're using python
>>> without taking advantage of any object oriented features.
>>> you can do that, but you'll end up scratching your head
>>> about how to do 'obvious' things.
>>>
>>
>> <scratching_head>hmm, I see</scratching_head>
>>
>>
>>> how about just making a class and setting the list as an
>>> instance variable?  or it could be a class variable.
>>>
>>
>> I wish this had showed up in one of my google searches :-(
>>
>> I wanted a static list to keep track of the history of the
>> game nim that I'm using as a coding exercise for an
>> introductory class in programming for 7th graders. This is
>> their first piece of coding after "hello world", "hello
>> world" in a function, conditional evaluation and iteration.
>> I was hoping to keep track of the game history with a
>> function (to show modular programming) rather than spread
>> the state tracking code all over the global namespace.
>>
>> I've had minimal experience with python, and had my own
>> course outline ready (bash, perl, linux install and admin,
>> C, C++) before I declared that I'd do the class. I had
>> expected that they'd be the usual oppressed and compliant
>> kids that the educational system turns out and hadn't
>> expected that they'd have an opinion on what they wanted, so
>> I was more than surprised to have them announce that they
>> wanted python. At that stage I was committed to teaching
>> them something and figured if I couldn't learn python fast
>> enough to keep 2 weeks ahead of a bunch of 7th graders, I
>> should take myself out the back and shoot myself.
>>
>> Chris Calloway mentioned my course earlier on this list.
>>
>> http://www.austintek.com/python_class/
>>
>> At the moment they aren't writing code blocks more than a
>> couple of lines long. I don't want to start them on classes
>> until they have a lot more coding experience and can code
>> blocks 20-50 lines long without external help. I hadn't
>> expected that python would get this complicated so fast ;-)
>> I thought static would do it for sure - it's worked
>> everywhere else. It's obvious that you don't need static if
>> you have an object. I'll keep your code to do a rewrite
>> sometime later in the course using a game_history object.
>>
>> Thanks Joe
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug




From jim at ibang.com  Fri Mar 14 19:58:35 2008
From: jim at ibang.com (Jim Allman)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:58:35 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <47DAC252.2020500@unc.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>	<81BAD632-6B1D-4E9D-B9B6-B44F82BC4D23@gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803141027590.1046@wm7d.net>
	<47DAC252.2020500@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <7D1455EA-51F5-4B3F-816C-7735484B091D@ibang.com>

On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:

> But remember that everything (seriously, EVERYTHING) about python is
> object oriented. It's hard to avoid it for long...


It might help to think of your Python module as a "singleton" (the  
one-and-only instance of its class), and module variable as its  
static properties. In your code, this would for all practical  
purposes feel like a static var of the class. As with static  
properties, the namespace (path to the module or class) helps to  
avoid "global soup."

Just keep in mind this cautionary tale of "import myModule" vs. "from  
myModule import myVar":
	http://www.thescripts.com/forum/thread24318.html

   =jimA=

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Jim Allman
Interrobang Digital Media
http://www.ibang.com/
(919) 649-5760




From cbc at unc.edu  Fri Mar 14 23:44:36 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (cbc at unc.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:44:36 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] static list in python
In-Reply-To: <df7afb5e0803141004i1b35418eu44b19a31a3b30705@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140811350.21323@wm7d.net>
	<47DAA1B5.6020000@unc.edu> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803140917180.27510@wm7d.net>
	<47DAAA35.8060903@unc.edu>
	<df7afb5e0803141004i1b35418eu44b19a31a3b30705@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080314184436.qdtr8zlz40kg088o@webmail7.isis.unc.edu>

Quoting Brad Oaks <bradoaks at gmail.com>:
> Thanks Josh,
>
> I didn't know about the tutor list.
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor is the url for that list.

http://trizpug.org/up-to-speed/#lists

Cheers, Chris



From mrevoir at gmail.com  Tue Mar 18 14:35:13 2008
From: mrevoir at gmail.com (Mike Revoir)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:35:13 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Plone Jam 3/20/08
Message-ID: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>

Plone Jammers,
I apologize for the late notice, but I will be unable to attend and host
this week's Plone Jam. Is anyone able to host the Jam in my place?

Sorry, and thanks in advance,

Mike
-------------- next part --------------
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From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Mar 18 18:44:29 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:44:29 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>

On 3/18/2008 9:35 AM, Mike Revoir wrote:
> Plone Jammers,
> I apologize for the late notice, but I will be unable to attend and host
> this week's Plone Jam. Is anyone able to host the Jam in my place?

I had it listed at my place. For some reason due to our previous 
conversations about my hosting it last month, I thought you were wanting 
that, so I listed it already:

http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/mar-08-jam2
http://trizpug.org/

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From biggers at utsl.com  Tue Mar 18 19:42:31 2008
From: biggers at utsl.com (Mark R. Biggers)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:42:31 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>
	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>

My dream of a super Plone Jam or 2:

Rob.L, Mike.R and Josh.J take turns, reviewing either an "example" UML model
or one of their own, and explain some "tips 'n tricks" about what they have
discovered about UML-modeling => ArchGenXML => Plone products.  Plone 2
examples would be fine; Plone 3 would be great, too.

I did some work recently fixing the AGX example model, to try it out with
1.6.x AXG and Plone3.  That might help; however we are all sure to learn
something from the UML/AGX super-group ;)

Here's hoping flattery will get those Jam-demos,
----mark

Chris Calloway writes:
 > On 3/18/2008 9:35 AM, Mike Revoir wrote:
 > > Plone Jammers,
 > > I apologize for the late notice, but I will be unable to attend and host
 > > this week's Plone Jam. Is anyone able to host the Jam in my place?



From rob_lineberger at med.unc.edu  Tue Mar 18 20:01:14 2008
From: rob_lineberger at med.unc.edu (Rob Lineberger)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:01:14 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>
	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu> <18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>
Message-ID: <1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star>

I have the same dream as you, but with something that generates a
working Plone 3 product.  

I can (and in fact, recently did) present a tutorial on 2.5-style UML >>
AGX >> Plone.  I'd be happy to do the same thing at a Plone Jam now that
the kinks have been worked out, but with a "real" UML model.  But the
Plone community seems pretty set on Zope3 tech, which Josh is much more
versed in.

In other words, I suspect that model driven development is falling out
of favor, for good reasons according to people who know what they are
doing.  Instead of refining that process, it might make more sense to
explore the new way.

Or perhaps a hybrid, or a face off... ?

Rob


On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 13:42 -0500, Mark R. Biggers wrote:
> My dream of a super Plone Jam or 2:
> 
> Rob.L, Mike.R and Josh.J take turns, reviewing either an "example" UML model
> or one of their own, and explain some "tips 'n tricks" about what they have
> discovered about UML-modeling => ArchGenXML => Plone products.  Plone 2
> examples would be fine; Plone 3 would be great, too.
> 
> I did some work recently fixing the AGX example model, to try it out with
> 1.6.x AXG and Plone3.  That might help; however we are all sure to learn
> something from the UML/AGX super-group ;)
> 
> Here's hoping flattery will get those Jam-demos,
> ----mark
> 
> Chris Calloway writes:
>  > On 3/18/2008 9:35 AM, Mike Revoir wrote:
>  > > Plone Jammers,
>  > > I apologize for the late notice, but I will be unable to attend and host
>  > > this week's Plone Jam. Is anyone able to host the Jam in my place?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug





From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Tue Mar 18 20:02:08 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:02:08 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>
	<18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>
Message-ID: <47E011B0.2080108@unc.edu>

I'm down with that! Flattery will get you everywhere ;)

I'd also like to propose some hard-core ZopeSkel hacking at a future 
jam... I could use some help from some of you pythonistas as well, paste 
is very much a python thing first. I've spent more time figuring out how 
paste works than I spent doing actual work on ZopeSkel. Maybe make it a 
"mini sprint"... might even be a fun way to blow a Saturday sometime...  :)

BTW, I can't make it this week either, and I'm totally bummed... anybody 
interested in hosting an off schedule plone jam late next week for 
Mark's idea? is that too soon after the meeting?

JJ

Mark R. Biggers wrote:
> My dream of a super Plone Jam or 2:
>
> Rob.L, Mike.R and Josh.J take turns, reviewing either an "example" UML model
> or one of their own, and explain some "tips 'n tricks" about what they have
> discovered about UML-modeling => ArchGenXML => Plone products.  Plone 2
> examples would be fine; Plone 3 would be great, too.
>
> I did some work recently fixing the AGX example model, to try it out with
> 1.6.x AXG and Plone3.  That might help; however we are all sure to learn
> something from the UML/AGX super-group ;)
>
> Here's hoping flattery will get those Jam-demos,
> ----mark
>
> Chris Calloway writes:
>  > On 3/18/2008 9:35 AM, Mike Revoir wrote:
>  > > Plone Jammers,
>  > > I apologize for the late notice, but I will be unable to attend and host
>  > > this week's Plone Jam. Is anyone able to host the Jam in my place?
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>   




From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Mar 18 21:05:55 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:05:55 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>
	<18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>
	<1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star>
Message-ID: <47E020A3.3020601@unc.edu>

On 3/18/2008 3:01 PM, Rob Lineberger wrote:

> In other words, I suspect that model driven development is falling out
> of favor, for good reasons according to people who know what they are
> doing.

I think it's doing quite well and now called zope.schema.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Tue Mar 18 21:31:29 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:31:29 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>
	<18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>
	<1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star>
Message-ID: <47E026A1.7010304@unc.edu>

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that model driven development is 
falling out of favor (least in my case), it's more like model-driven 
_code generation_ is turning out to be a real pipe dream.

To put it differently: I still think I'm in love with UML, I just don't 
want to have code babies with it.

I think it's also important to mention that "model driven" can mean a 
lot of different things. A zope3 interface can "say" all the same things 
a UML model does, just in code instead of pictures, so it's still 
"modeling"  (as far as I'm concerned anyway). :)

JJ

Rob Lineberger wrote:
> I have the same dream as you, but with something that generates a
> working Plone 3 product.  
>
> I can (and in fact, recently did) present a tutorial on 2.5-style UML >>
> AGX >> Plone.  I'd be happy to do the same thing at a Plone Jam now that
> the kinks have been worked out, but with a "real" UML model.  But the
> Plone community seems pretty set on Zope3 tech, which Josh is much more
> versed in.
>
> In other words, I suspect that model driven development is falling out
> of favor, for good reasons according to people who know what they are
> doing.  Instead of refining that process, it might make more sense to
> explore the new way.
>
> Or perhaps a hybrid, or a face off... ?
>
> Rob
>
>
> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 13:42 -0500, Mark R. Biggers wrote:
>   
>> My dream of a super Plone Jam or 2:
>>
>> Rob.L, Mike.R and Josh.J take turns, reviewing either an "example" UML model
>> or one of their own, and explain some "tips 'n tricks" about what they have
>> discovered about UML-modeling => ArchGenXML => Plone products.  Plone 2
>> examples would be fine; Plone 3 would be great, too.
>>
>> I did some work recently fixing the AGX example model, to try it out with
>> 1.6.x AXG and Plone3.  That might help; however we are all sure to learn
>> something from the UML/AGX super-group ;)
>>
>> Here's hoping flattery will get those Jam-demos,
>> ----mark
>>
>> Chris Calloway writes:
>>  > On 3/18/2008 9:35 AM, Mike Revoir wrote:
>>  > > Plone Jammers,
>>  > > I apologize for the late notice, but I will be unable to attend and host
>>  > > this week's Plone Jam. Is anyone able to host the Jam in my place?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> triangle-zpug mailing list
>> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
>> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>>     
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>   




From biggers at utsl.com  Wed Mar 19 13:58:45 2008
From: biggers at utsl.com (Mark R. Biggers)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:58:45 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <47E026A1.7010304@unc.edu>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>
	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>
	<18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>
	<1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star> <47E026A1.7010304@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <18401.3589.838891.758211@dexter.saiph.com>

Hi folks,

Josh Johnson writes:
 > I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that model driven development is 
 > falling out of favor (least in my case), it's more like model-driven 
 > _code generation_ is turning out to be a real pipe dream.
 >
 > To put it differently: I still think I'm in love with UML, I just don't 
 > want to have code babies with it.
 >
 > Rob Lineberger wrote:
 > > I have the same dream as you, but with something that generates a
 > > working Plone 3 product.  
 > >
 > > I can (and in fact, recently did) present a tutorial on 2.5-style UML >>
 > > AGX >> Plone.  I'd be happy to do the same thing at a Plone Jam now that
 > > the kinks have been worked out, but with a "real" UML model.  But the
 > > Plone community seems pretty set on Zope3 tech, which Josh is much more
 > > versed in.
 > >
 > > In other words, I suspect that model driven development is falling out
 > > of favor, for good reasons according to people who know what they are
 > > doing.  Instead of refining that process, it might make more sense to
 > > explore the new way.

We "discussed" this possible issue over IRC #weblion, during the
PloSympEast.  Joel Burton, in particular, thinks that there *must* be a
story for ArgoUML + ArchGenXML going forward.  There's too many folks using
AGX right now (with their fav. UML UI) for Plone2, and will expect that they
can go forward with their models on Plone3.

For my part, without AGX, I don't know how I could have been "bootstrapped"
into doing real Plone2 development!  Having the unit-test stubs; some
workable "skeleton" of archetypes-classes from the model; and having a
product that can install or unit-test "out of the box" is a *huge win*.  And
I like the fact that the UML model-representation is reflected in the code,
and can be (manually) "round-tripped" with the code changes.

AGX hasn't overcome the need to stare at Plone code (e.g. unit-tests) or use
IPython or WingIDE to "get" all the APIs, but I can't overemphasize how much
help Argo+AGX has been.  Also, I think the combo has actually attracted and
help keep new (possibly quite experienced otherwise) developers learning
Plone & Zope.

Hence, my great interest in Josh's fixes for AGX, and any signs that AGX
1.6.x or 2.0 will be a serious lever for doing Plone3 products development.

("paster" is fine as far it goes; I don't have a problem with it per se.)

My 2 cents, thank you,
----mark



From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Wed Mar 19 17:01:56 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:01:56 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <18401.3589.838891.758211@dexter.saiph.com>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>	<18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>	<1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star>
	<47E026A1.7010304@unc.edu>
	<18401.3589.838891.758211@dexter.saiph.com>
Message-ID: <47E138F4.20700@unc.edu>

I have my quams about cramming everything into the UML model (which I'd 
be happy to elaborate on), but my biggest beef with AGX is it 
didn't/doesn't work (at least for me). :) It's not robust enough, it's 
not developed enough, it's not documented enough.. and worse, it does 
stuff for it's own sake instead of what makes sense (e.g. the broken 
installation code, the way it uses config.py, etc). It's getting a lot 
better, but it's still not quite "right".

That's very hard for me to say. I've seen the code first hand and I 
think AGX is very well written, a tremendous accomplishment, and a huge 
asset to the Plone community at large. I think what Joel has done, using 
it as a platform for Plone education, is very remarkable.

That being said, I'm suspicious of anything that takes away knowledge 
from you. AGX does too much for you, and without much explanation. The 
code it generates is based on the personal experience of "what works" by 
the people who wrote it (at least that's how it looks), and it doesn't 
coincide directly with any documentation I've seen. It's great when it 
works, but if it doesn't, either because you want to do something that 
AGX hasn't implemented, or Plone has changed in ways that AGX hasn't 
kept up with, you're stuck tacking things on and working around AGX's 
limitations, with the risk of having your working code whacked the next 
time you regenerate. Or worse, you stop regenerating and keeping your 
model up to date.

That's assuming you know how to do it on your own. Relying on a code 
generator like AGX too heavily keeps you from having to understand what 
you're doing... until it's too late, AGX messes up, and you're forced to 
dive in (that was my problem, just exacerbated by the fact that the code 
it was generating wasn't documented).

I like the direction ZopeSkel is going because it sets a good precedent. 
We've got Martin Aspeli's book to explain what ZopeSkel is doing. Martin 
mentioned that he actually changed Plone's code so that he could explain 
it's concepts better during the writing of his book. That's huge.

ZopeSkel's core theme is: run it once, then tweak the code as needed. 
Run it again to add chunks of boiler plate as needed, then tweak some 
more. That's great, because as you develop for new versions of Plone, or 
start using features that ZopeSkel doesn't handle (and probably 
shouldn't handle, like setting up event listeners), you're free to 
implement them in the way that works best for your situation, not forced 
to do it a specific way for the sake of the script. It's handling the 
annoying boiler plate code, even educating you on how things should be 
done (assuming the paster template is well documented), but you can 
always deviate.

Better, it forces you to understand what it's doing. Since it's based on 
a solid foundation of documentation (Martin's book), it's easy to find 
the resources you need to accomplish that understanding. And ultimately, 
that understanding helps enable you to fix it if it breaks. In working 
on my process document, I've run into that many times, and didn't have 
to scratch my head trying to figure out what I did wrong or what my tool 
did that wasn't kosher.

Now, I think that that philosophy can be applied to future AGX 
development. I can see AGX becoming more respectful to UML, and more 
flexible. I can even see it being more easily extensible, where 
templates can be added easily for new stereotypes (maybe even on a 
per-project basis), new plone idioms, shortcuts, etc. I can see AGX's 
documentation being concise and comprehensive, so that I can rely on the 
explanation of a tagged value to actually do what the docs say, and more 
importantly, I can predict what code will be generated given  specific 
circumstances, and know _why_.

I hope that makes sense (I hate being so verbose :P),
JJ

Mark R. Biggers wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Josh Johnson writes:
>  > I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that model driven development is 
>  > falling out of favor (least in my case), it's more like model-driven 
>  > _code generation_ is turning out to be a real pipe dream.
>  >
>  > To put it differently: I still think I'm in love with UML, I just don't 
>  > want to have code babies with it.
>  >
>  > Rob Lineberger wrote:
>  > > I have the same dream as you, but with something that generates a
>  > > working Plone 3 product.  
>  > >
>  > > I can (and in fact, recently did) present a tutorial on 2.5-style UML >>
>  > > AGX >> Plone.  I'd be happy to do the same thing at a Plone Jam now that
>  > > the kinks have been worked out, but with a "real" UML model.  But the
>  > > Plone community seems pretty set on Zope3 tech, which Josh is much more
>  > > versed in.
>  > >
>  > > In other words, I suspect that model driven development is falling out
>  > > of favor, for good reasons according to people who know what they are
>  > > doing.  Instead of refining that process, it might make more sense to
>  > > explore the new way.
>
> We "discussed" this possible issue over IRC #weblion, during the
> PloSympEast.  Joel Burton, in particular, thinks that there *must* be a
> story for ArgoUML + ArchGenXML going forward.  There's too many folks using
> AGX right now (with their fav. UML UI) for Plone2, and will expect that they
> can go forward with their models on Plone3.
>
> For my part, without AGX, I don't know how I could have been "bootstrapped"
> into doing real Plone2 development!  Having the unit-test stubs; some
> workable "skeleton" of archetypes-classes from the model; and having a
> product that can install or unit-test "out of the box" is a *huge win*.  And
> I like the fact that the UML model-representation is reflected in the code,
> and can be (manually) "round-tripped" with the code changes.
>
> AGX hasn't overcome the need to stare at Plone code (e.g. unit-tests) or use
> IPython or WingIDE to "get" all the APIs, but I can't overemphasize how much
> help Argo+AGX has been.  Also, I think the combo has actually attracted and
> help keep new (possibly quite experienced otherwise) developers learning
> Plone & Zope.
>
> Hence, my great interest in Josh's fixes for AGX, and any signs that AGX
> 1.6.x or 2.0 will be a serious lever for doing Plone3 products development.
>
> ("paster" is fine as far it goes; I don't have a problem with it per se.)
>
> My 2 cents, thank you,
> ----mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>   




From cbc at unc.edu  Mon Mar 24 15:55:42 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:55:42 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Meeting location change for tomorrow
Message-ID: <47E7C0EE.701@unc.edu>

There has been a room change for tomorrow's TriZPUG meeting.

The location is 328 Phillips Hall, the place where we normally meet, and 
the location of our first two Plone Boot Camps.

The meeting notice is here:

http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/mar-08-mtg

The directions are here:

http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/unc-logistics

This meeting will be hosted by Josh Johnson in my absence. Josh, you 
might want to post your cell number in case anyone is lost trying to 
find the meeting room.

Lee Nelson of Research Engineer and Lab Manager of the Constructued 
Facilities Lab at NCSU will speak about his use of Python in structural 
engineering simulations. I'm hoping Chris Church will also talk about 
PyCon, as I will not be able to be at the meeting this month.

PyCon was quite great this year. ChiPy was a good host. The video is 
being rapidly assembled this year as a couple of people are very gung-ho 
about getting that done fast.

My favorite talks at PyCon this year were on topics getting under the 
hood of Python. The talk on listobject.c was completely awesome. Also 
great were talks on weak references, the import statement, Grok, Zope 3, 
Repoze, and Supervisor.

There was a PyCon exhibit hall this year. I collected enough schwag into 
a goodie bag to tide us over with door prizes for a number of meetings. 
A good discovery was that we are vastly under-utilizing O'Reilly's User 
Group program. Essentially, TriZPUG can get you any book you are willing 
to review.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Mon Mar 24 16:26:59 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:26:59 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Meeting location change for tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <47E7C0EE.701@unc.edu>
References: <47E7C0EE.701@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <47E7C843.2010802@unc.edu>

I don't have a cell phone. So if you're lost, ah... sucks to be you? ;)

I got lost one time trying to get to 328 Phillips, and managed to find 
my way. Just remember, once you go into the building, KEEP LEFT. The 
stairwell is on the left of the main entrance, and the classroom is in 
the corner on the left once you get to the 3rd floor.

The numbers on the doors didn't seem to make sense, so I don't trust 'em.

Also, make sure you're not a week early like I was at the time :P

JJ

Chris Calloway wrote:
> There has been a room change for tomorrow's TriZPUG meeting.
>
> The location is 328 Phillips Hall, the place where we normally meet, and 
> the location of our first two Plone Boot Camps.
>
> The meeting notice is here:
>
> http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/mar-08-mtg
>
> The directions are here:
>
> http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/unc-logistics
>
> This meeting will be hosted by Josh Johnson in my absence. Josh, you 
> might want to post your cell number in case anyone is lost trying to 
> find the meeting room.
>
> Lee Nelson of Research Engineer and Lab Manager of the Constructued 
> Facilities Lab at NCSU will speak about his use of Python in structural 
> engineering simulations. I'm hoping Chris Church will also talk about 
> PyCon, as I will not be able to be at the meeting this month.
>
> PyCon was quite great this year. ChiPy was a good host. The video is 
> being rapidly assembled this year as a couple of people are very gung-ho 
> about getting that done fast.
>
> My favorite talks at PyCon this year were on topics getting under the 
> hood of Python. The talk on listobject.c was completely awesome. Also 
> great were talks on weak references, the import statement, Grok, Zope 3, 
> Repoze, and Supervisor.
>
> There was a PyCon exhibit hall this year. I collected enough schwag into 
> a goodie bag to tide us over with door prizes for a number of meetings. 
> A good discovery was that we are vastly under-utilizing O'Reilly's User 
> Group program. Essentially, TriZPUG can get you any book you are willing 
> to review.
>
>   




From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Mon Mar 24 20:29:51 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:29:51 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Plone Symposium Videos Online
Message-ID: <47E8012F.5070204@unc.edu>

http://plone.tv/conferences/plone-symposium-east-2008

I heard they're still working on PyCon...

JJ



From jmack at wm7d.net  Tue Mar 25 16:23:56 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:23:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>

intervals=10000000 #some large number
height=0
for x in range(0, intervals):
 	height+=x

(I get the same result whether running interactive or from a 
file with the above code)

For a sufficiently large value of "intervals" the program 
exits immediately with a MemoryError. For slightly smaller 
values, the program takes up most of the memory of the 
machine. I would have thought that you'd only be allocating 
a couple of variables. What am I missing? Am I allocating an 
"intervals" number of something, rather than a single 
variable with a large value?

thanks Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From david at handysoftware.com  Tue Mar 25 16:48:29 2008
From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:48:29 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <20080325154829.GB14694@arno2>

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 08:23:56AM -0700, Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> intervals=10000000 #some large number
> height=0
> for x in range(0, intervals):
>  	height+=x

range() constructs a list in memory, populating the entire thing with each
successive integer.

Try xrange() instead, that's what you want.

David H

-- 
David Handy
Computer Programming is Fun!
Beginning Computer Programming with Python
http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/



From philip at semanchuk.com  Tue Mar 25 16:52:36 2008
From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:52:36 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <27DF0DE5-2047-41B3-B741-5E61717F3FA7@semanchuk.com>


On Mar 25, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> intervals=10000000 #some large number
> height=0
> for x in range(0, intervals):
>  	height+=x
>
> (I get the same result whether running interactive or from a
> file with the above code)
>
> For a sufficiently large value of "intervals" the program
> exits immediately with a MemoryError. For slightly smaller
> values, the program takes up most of the memory of the
> machine. I would have thought that you'd only be allocating
> a couple of variables. What am I missing? Am I allocating an
> "intervals" number of something, rather than a single
> variable with a large value?

range() builds a list of numbers in memory, so you're creating a list  
with 10000000 elements. Check out the function xrange() instead.

Cheers
Philip



From jcd at sdf.lonestar.org  Tue Mar 25 16:33:32 2008
From: jcd at sdf.lonestar.org (J. Cliff Dyer)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:33:32 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <1206459212.3940.0.camel@aalcdl07.lib.unc.edu>

range(x,y) creates a list of all the numbers between x and y.  For
sufficiently large y (and decently small x), you will run out of
memory.  

Try xrange(x,y), which creates an iterator, which yields each number in
turn.

Cheers,
Cliff

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 08:23 -0700, Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> intervals=10000000 #some large number
> height=0
> for x in range(0, intervals):
>  	height+=x
> 
> (I get the same result whether running interactive or from a 
> file with the above code)
> 
> For a sufficiently large value of "intervals" the program 
> exits immediately with a MemoryError. For slightly smaller 
> values, the program takes up most of the memory of the 
> machine. I would have thought that you'd only be allocating 
> a couple of variables. What am I missing? Am I allocating an 
> "intervals" number of something, rather than a single 
> variable with a large value?
> 
> thanks Joe
> 




From flyingfred0+trizpug at gmail.com  Tue Mar 25 16:57:54 2008
From: flyingfred0+trizpug at gmail.com (Chris Church)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:57:54 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <1ea258670803250857pf0256b6ufd0f5a994264a47e@mail.gmail.com>

Using range() creates a list containing 10,000,000 integers, which is why it
requires most of your memory.  You probably want to use xrange() instead,
which creates an iterator that gives you one integer at a time from your
range.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Joseph Mack NA3T <jmack at wm7d.net> wrote:

> intervals=10000000 #some large number
> height=0
> for x in range(0, intervals):
>        height+=x
>
> (I get the same result whether running interactive or from a
> file with the above code)
>
> For a sufficiently large value of "intervals" the program
> exits immediately with a MemoryError. For slightly smaller
> values, the program takes up most of the memory of the
> machine. I would have thought that you'd only be allocating
> a couple of variables. What am I missing? Am I allocating an
> "intervals" number of something, rather than a single
> variable with a large value?
>
> thanks Joe
>
> --
> Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
> jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
> generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
> Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
>
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From jmack at wm7d.net  Tue Mar 25 16:59:49 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <27DF0DE5-2047-41B3-B741-5E61717F3FA7@semanchuk.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
	<27DF0DE5-2047-41B3-B741-5E61717F3FA7@semanchuk.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250857280.16935@wm7d.net>

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Philip Semanchuk wrote:

> range() builds a list of numbers in memory,

just figured this out myself. It's working fine in a while 
loop for the moment.

> so you're creating a list with 
> 10000000 elements. Check out the function xrange() instead.

thanks both of you. Will go lookup xrange()

Thanks Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From brad.crittenden at gmail.com  Tue Mar 25 16:55:40 2008
From: brad.crittenden at gmail.com (Bradley A. Crittenden)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:55:40 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <98937943-4C1F-49A9-A6FA-4DD3A1851D1F@gmail.com>


On Mar 25, 2008, at 11:23 , Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:

> intervals=10000000 #some large number
> height=0
> for x in range(0, intervals):
> 	height+=x
>

Joe,

Try changing 'range' to 'xrange'.  The former returns the entire list  
while the latter is an iterator, therefore it doesn't consume much  
memory.

--Brad


> (I get the same result whether running interactive or from a
> file with the above code)
>
> For a sufficiently large value of "intervals" the program
> exits immediately with a MemoryError. For slightly smaller
> values, the program takes up most of the memory of the
> machine. I would have thought that you'd only be allocating
> a couple of variables. What am I missing? Am I allocating an
> "intervals" number of something, rather than a single
> variable with a large value?
>
> thanks Joe
>
> -- 
> Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
> jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
> generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
> Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!
>
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug




From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Mar 25 19:39:29 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:39:29 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250857280.16935@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>	<27DF0DE5-2047-41B3-B741-5E61717F3FA7@semanchuk.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250857280.16935@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <47E946E1.4010708@unc.edu>

On 3/25/2008 11:59 AM, Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> thanks both of you. Will go lookup xrange()

In addition to the memory-conserving xrange, you don't need the loop. 
This will do the same thing:

 >>> sum(xrange(10000000))
49999995000000L
 >>>

I thought this was slow. So I tried doing this with scipy.weave.inline.

See:

http://incm.cnrs-mrs.fr/LaurentPerrinet/ScientificPython#head-4f78ccfcc91b87436966e15a294263dbcd400a7e

for a pretty similar example.

But ironically it was much slower, as the C++ took so long to compile on 
the fly. Plus, you need memory, as you need to pass a populated numpy 
array to the C++ instead of a Python iterator. Python wins!

I had no problem with the original example, I guess because I have 
enough memory.

Man, some days I waste a lot of time on brain teasers.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From jmack at wm7d.net  Tue Mar 25 20:43:15 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:43:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] why is this using a lot of memory?
In-Reply-To: <47E946E1.4010708@unc.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250817020.12781@wm7d.net>
	<27DF0DE5-2047-41B3-B741-5E61717F3FA7@semanchuk.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803250857280.16935@wm7d.net> <47E946E1.4010708@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803251240340.8609@wm7d.net>

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Chris Calloway wrote:

> In addition to the memory-conserving xrange, you don't need the loop.
> This will do the same thing:
>
> >>> sum(xrange(10000000))
> 49999995000000L

sure. The code I sent was the problem reduced to its 
minimum. I needed some line in the loop, any line would have 
done.

Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Mar 25 20:49:34 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:49:34 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Tonight's meeting
Message-ID: <47E9574E.6030607@unc.edu>

TriZPUGlians,

At tonight's meeting, and continuing on this list, please discuss:

1) Efficacy of moving our meeting night *back* to fourth Wednesday. For 
the rest of the year, Tuesday nights are going to be difficult for me 
and a few other politically active TriZPUG members. We met on fourth 
Wednesdays for many years and moved to fourth Tuesday at a request of a 
member who no longer has that constraint.

2) Which O'Reilly books you'd like me to request for us through our user 
group program with O'Reilly. Especially if you will commit to writing a 
book review. Doesn't have to be a Python book ('Head Rush Ajax' comes to 
mind). But of course, as a Python user group, I would expect a 
preference for Python books, even though O'Reilly hasn't been especially 
active in the Python book category for a couple of years. However, 
PyAtl's Noah Gift is blogging about Python at O'Reilly's OnLamp: 
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/3039 . If you want to write a Python 
book, our user group program can hook you up. Noah has a Python 
sysadmining book coming out soon.


-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From mrevoir at gmail.com  Wed Mar 26 17:43:27 2008
From: mrevoir at gmail.com (Mike Revoir)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:43:27 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Tonight's meeting
In-Reply-To: <47E9574E.6030607@unc.edu>
References: <47E9574E.6030607@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <f4cf1c730803260943rb051363y5fabd72f18194534@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Chris Calloway <cbc at unc.edu> wrote:

At tonight's meeting, and continuing on this list, please discuss:
>
> 1) Efficacy of moving our meeting night *back* to fourth Wednesday. For
> the rest of the year, Tuesday nights are going to be difficult for me
> and a few other politically active TriZPUG members. We met on fourth
> Wednesdays for many years and moved to fourth Tuesday at a request of a
> member who no longer has that constraint.
>

I wasn't able to attend last night's meeting as my son was sick, but would a
night other than Wednesday be possible? I know that no night is perfect for
everyone, but Wednesday is the one night that I cannot attend. If Wednesday
works best for everyone else, then please don't stick with Tuesday's just
for me.

Thanks,

Mike
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From cbc at unc.edu  Wed Mar 26 18:37:27 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:37:27 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Tonight's meeting
In-Reply-To: <f4cf1c730803260943rb051363y5fabd72f18194534@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47E9574E.6030607@unc.edu>
	<f4cf1c730803260943rb051363y5fabd72f18194534@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47EA89D7.9000905@unc.edu>

On 3/26/2008 12:43 PM, Mike Revoir wrote:
> I wasn't able to attend last night's meeting as my son was sick, but would a
> night other than Wednesday be possible? I know that no night is perfect for
> everyone, but Wednesday is the one night that I cannot attend. If Wednesday
> works best for everyone else, then please don't stick with Tuesday's just
> for me.

As you are host of our largest attended meetings, I think your opinion 
matters most.

How bad are Thursdays? Who would object to fourth Thursdays?

Also, I'd like to apologize to Lee Nelson and Josh Johnson for the low 
turnout last night. Especially with Lee driving to Chapel Hill to 
present. If the people at UNC at not going to show up, I'd be in favor 
of only having meetings at Duke and Capstrat, where people do show up. 
The only reason we started having meeting rotate to UNC every third 
month was to accommodate the UNC folks who said they would be more 
likely to attend meetings at UNC.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From josh_johnson at unc.edu  Wed Mar 26 18:38:26 2008
From: josh_johnson at unc.edu (Josh Johnson)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:38:26 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Last Night Recap
Message-ID: <47EA8A12.6080603@unc.edu>

Since nobody showed up, or everybody got lost using my completely wrong 
directions, except me and Lee, I figured I'd give ya'll a quick rundown 
on Lee's presentation.

I tried to get VLC broadcasting to work, and I got close, but nobody on 
the IRC channel could view it (and I managed to crash a mac in the 
process :))

1. Structural Engineering is RAD :)
2. Lee's use of Data Turbine was inspiring 
(http://rbnb.creare.com/rbnb/index.html). Very cool tech!
3. COM sucks, but it's a beautiful thing, for sure... (He's using COM in 
python to talk to data acquisition software)

I'm sure Lee can fill in some of the finer details.

We all need to prod Lee to put his slides up online somewhere. He's got 
some embedded video (very cool embedded video of tests in progress), so 
it's not as easy as just saving it to HTML, but he should really do it, 
it was a great presentation... that you all missed, and should be 
kicking yourselves over. ;)

We didn't talk about meeting days. Personally, I have trouble with 
Wednesdays only because I occasionally (once every 4 or 6 weeks) play 
Texas Hold'em with some friends of mine on Wednesday nights (not a big 
deal).

JJ



From mrevoir at gmail.com  Thu Mar 27 04:17:32 2008
From: mrevoir at gmail.com (Mike Revoir)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:17:32 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Tonight's meeting
In-Reply-To: <47EA89D7.9000905@unc.edu>
References: <47E9574E.6030607@unc.edu>
	<f4cf1c730803260943rb051363y5fabd72f18194534@mail.gmail.com>
	<47EA89D7.9000905@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <f4cf1c730803262017k3a571f36hd827fbb08171cb93@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Chris Calloway <cbc at unc.edu> wrote:

How bad are Thursdays? Who would object to fourth Thursdays?
>

Thursday's are fine with me.

Mike
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From robert at geigers.net  Thu Mar 27 14:49:27 2008
From: robert at geigers.net (Robert Geiger)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:49:27 -0500
Subject: [triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re:  Plone Jam 3/20/08
In-Reply-To: <18401.3589.838891.758211@dexter.saiph.com>
References: <f4cf1c730803180635v7df1442ehbd6f5758108b1129@mail.gmail.com>	<47DFFF7D.8060600@unc.edu>	<18400.3351.814031.690332@dexter.saiph.com>	<1205866874.6782.8.camel@phantasy-star>
	<47E026A1.7010304@unc.edu>
	<18401.3589.838891.758211@dexter.saiph.com>
Message-ID: <47EBA5E7.2040106@geigers.net>

Guys,

Regarding Design and Tools....

I've been working with a group of 30 analysts documenting the re-design 
(BPR) of an entire state agency (VA DMV).  I've been mentoring and 
coaching them using ICONIX Process and they've been working with over a 
hundred users documenting use cases.

We ran a sub-project off the use cases for processing Grant processing. 
  We took the use cases, did Robustness diagrams on them, GENERATED 
Sequence diagrams, mapped the message conversations between the objects 
and GENERATED the shell classes AND the test case classes (one test per 
controller).   The coders took the shells and filled in the methods and 
knit it together per the sequence diagrams et al, which let them know 
exactly what they were supposed to be doing!

The developers were PART of the technical design process from Robustness 
onward.  Working with the users and analysts, the developers could 
understand the USER's scenarios very clearly and were delighted to be 
part of this kind of effort.  They had never done anything like it before!

Needless to say, these kind of user driven design and development 
efforts are a RAGING SUCCESS when you use the methodology, as was this 
particular one.

As to the tools, I've checked out Argo and other free and $ tools.  Most 
are not quite robust enough yet to support the entire ICONIX process. 
We used Enterprise Architect which, given it's capabilities for the 
price, is a HUGE bargain.  It supports PYTHON and generates code from 
template driven scripts that can be modified to generate any kind of 
code.  If they were modified to generate Zope/Plone code, it would be an 
end-to-end solution for user/developer collaborative design from use 
case through coding for Zope/Plone.

Either this, or maybe the free tools can add a couple features in the 
right place...doesn't matter to me!

I'd love to come by and talk about the possibilities at the next 
meeting.  Anybody want to hear more?

Thanks, and best regards to you all!

Robert Geiger
Http://robert.geigers.net
919.271.7132


Mark R. Biggers wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> Josh Johnson writes:
>  > I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that model driven development is 
>  > falling out of favor (least in my case), it's more like model-driven 
>  > _code generation_ is turning out to be a real pipe dream.
>  >
>  > To put it differently: I still think I'm in love with UML, I just don't 
>  > want to have code babies with it.
>  >
>  > Rob Lineberger wrote:
>  > > I have the same dream as you, but with something that generates a
>  > > working Plone 3 product.  
>  > >
>  > > I can (and in fact, recently did) present a tutorial on 2.5-style UML >>
>  > > AGX >> Plone.  I'd be happy to do the same thing at a Plone Jam now that
>  > > the kinks have been worked out, but with a "real" UML model.  But the
>  > > Plone community seems pretty set on Zope3 tech, which Josh is much more
>  > > versed in.
>  > >
>  > > In other words, I suspect that model driven development is falling out
>  > > of favor, for good reasons according to people who know what they are
>  > > doing.  Instead of refining that process, it might make more sense to
>  > > explore the new way.
> 
> We "discussed" this possible issue over IRC #weblion, during the
> PloSympEast.  Joel Burton, in particular, thinks that there *must* be a
> story for ArgoUML + ArchGenXML going forward.  There's too many folks using
> AGX right now (with their fav. UML UI) for Plone2, and will expect that they
> can go forward with their models on Plone3.
> 
> For my part, without AGX, I don't know how I could have been "bootstrapped"
> into doing real Plone2 development!  Having the unit-test stubs; some
> workable "skeleton" of archetypes-classes from the model; and having a
> product that can install or unit-test "out of the box" is a *huge win*.  And
> I like the fact that the UML model-representation is reflected in the code,
> and can be (manually) "round-tripped" with the code changes.
> 
> AGX hasn't overcome the need to stare at Plone code (e.g. unit-tests) or use
> IPython or WingIDE to "get" all the APIs, but I can't overemphasize how much
> help Argo+AGX has been.  Also, I think the combo has actually attracted and
> help keep new (possibly quite experienced otherwise) developers learning
> Plone & Zope.
> 
> Hence, my great interest in Josh's fixes for AGX, and any signs that AGX
> 1.6.x or 2.0 will be a serious lever for doing Plone3 products development.
> 
> ("paster" is fine as far it goes; I don't have a problem with it per se.)
> 
> My 2 cents, thank you,
> ----mark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
> 

-- 

Robert Geiger
919.271.7132 Mobile
888.691.5888 Fax
http://robert.geigers.net

Have a great day!
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From cbc at unc.edu  Fri Mar 28 16:48:01 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:48:01 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Plone Symposium Videos Online
In-Reply-To: <47E8012F.5070204@unc.edu>
References: <47E8012F.5070204@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <47ED1331.2080605@unc.edu>

On 3/24/2008 3:29 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:
> I heard they're still working on PyCon...

The PyCon vids are slowly making the rounds through a rather confusing 
committee Chris Church and I joined. The raw vids before editing are 
starting to show up here:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pycon08

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From jmack at wm7d.net  Sun Mar 30 03:42:01 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 18:42:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] can't find font problem
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803291826100.2856@wm7d.net>

I have a font which I can find with the full pathname

#-----code starts here
from math import sqrt
import os, sys
from PIL import Image, ImageDraw, ImageFont


print sys.path
#fonts
#THIS LINE WORKS
#label_font=ImageFont.load("/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/courR18.pil")
#THIS LINE FAILS
label_font=ImageFont.load("PIL/courR18.pil")
#-------code ends here


I get an error with any variation of the font filename where 
I left python handle the python path, including just the 
bare filename.

Here's python path from the code

['/src/da/python_class/class_code',
'/usr/lib/python24.zip', 
'/usr/lib/python2.4',
'/usr/lib/python2.4/plat-linux2', 
'/usr/lib/python2.4/lib-tk', 
'/usr/lib/python2.4/lib-dynload', 
'/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages', 
'/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL']

the error is

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "./pi_numerical_integration_diagram.py", line 55, in ?
     label_font = ImageFont.load("PIL/courR18.pil")
   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/ImageFont.py", 
line 180, in load
     f._load_pilfont(filename)
   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/ImageFont.py", 
line 67, in _load_pilfont
     file = open(filename, "rb")
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
'PIL/courR18.pil'


I've got code that runs, but I'd like to get my python 
path working. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From david at handysoftware.com  Sun Mar 30 05:51:19 2008
From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:51:19 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] can't find font problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803291826100.2856@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803291826100.2856@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <20080330035119.GA16666@arno2>

The Python path is only used for finding Python modules and packages, and
then only by the "import" statement. For opening regular files, you have to
specify a full pathname or a path relative to the current directory.

In this case, it looks you are trying to load the font file out of the PIL
package directory. You can find the directory of a Python package like this:

>>> import PIL
>>> PIL.__file__
'/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/__init__.pyc'
>>> import os
>>> os.path.dirname(PIL.__file__)
'/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL'

So I suppose you could do something like this in your code:

label_font=ImageFont.load(os.path.dirname(PIL.__file__) + "/courR18.pil")

By the way, I just now looked in the PIL directory on my computer and didn't
see any .pil files there; I assume you put courR18.pil in that directory
yourself?

Hope this helps -
David H

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 06:42:01PM -0700, Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> I have a font which I can find with the full pathname
> 
> #-----code starts here
> from math import sqrt
> import os, sys
> from PIL import Image, ImageDraw, ImageFont
> 
> 
> print sys.path
> #fonts
> #THIS LINE WORKS
> #label_font=ImageFont.load("/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/courR18.pil")
> #THIS LINE FAILS
> label_font=ImageFont.load("PIL/courR18.pil")
> #-------code ends here
> 
> 
> I get an error with any variation of the font filename where 
> I left python handle the python path, including just the 
> bare filename.
> 
> Here's python path from the code
> 
> ['/src/da/python_class/class_code',
> '/usr/lib/python24.zip', 
> '/usr/lib/python2.4',
> '/usr/lib/python2.4/plat-linux2', 
> '/usr/lib/python2.4/lib-tk', 
> '/usr/lib/python2.4/lib-dynload', 
> '/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages', 
> '/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL']
> 
> the error is
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "./pi_numerical_integration_diagram.py", line 55, in ?
>      label_font = ImageFont.load("PIL/courR18.pil")
>    File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/ImageFont.py", 
> line 180, in load
>      f._load_pilfont(filename)
>    File "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/ImageFont.py", 
> line 67, in _load_pilfont
>      file = open(filename, "rb")
> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
> 'PIL/courR18.pil'
> 
> 
> I've got code that runs, but I'd like to get my python 
> path working. What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Thanks Joe
> 
> -- 
> Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
> jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
> generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
> Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> triangle-zpug mailing list
> triangle-zpug at starship.python.net
> http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug
> 

-- 
David Handy
Computer Programming is Fun!
Beginning Computer Programming with Python
http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/



From jmack at wm7d.net  Sun Mar 30 15:21:35 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:21:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] can't find font problem
In-Reply-To: <20080330035119.GA16666@arno2>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803291826100.2856@wm7d.net>
	<20080330035119.GA16666@arno2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803300612230.11455@wm7d.net>

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008, David Handy wrote:

> The Python path is only used for finding Python modules and packages, and
> then only by the "import" statement. For opening regular files, you have to
> specify a full pathname or a path relative to the current directory.

OK. Thanks

> In this case, it looks you are trying to load the font file out of the PIL
> package directory. You can find the directory of a Python package like this:
>
>>>> import PIL
>>>> PIL.__file__
> '/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL/__init__.pyc'
>>>> import os
>>>> os.path.dirname(PIL.__file__)
> '/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/PIL'
>
> So I suppose you could do something like this in your code:
>
> label_font=ImageFont.load(os.path.dirname(PIL.__file__) + "/courR18.pil")

thanks.

There's demo code out there eg

http://www.pythonware.com/library/pil/handbook/imagefont.htm

http://www.livibetter.com/blog/2006/11/24/making-pil-font-for-python-image-library/

(look for "arial.pil")

that finds the font without doing anything special. I 
thought that maybe there was some font path or python path 
that allowed python to find the file without me having to do 
anything.

> By the way, I just now looked in the PIL directory on my 
> computer and didn't see any .pil files there; I assume you 
> put courR18.pil in that directory yourself?

I moved the files from directory to directory, hoping they'd 
be picked up by the load command. Their current location is 
just where they are now. If there's a canonical location, 
I'd be happy to move them there.

Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From david at handysoftware.com  Mon Mar 31 03:57:54 2008
From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:57:54 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] can't find font problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803300612230.11455@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803291826100.2856@wm7d.net>
	<20080330035119.GA16666@arno2>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803300612230.11455@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <20080331015754.GA26195@arno2>

On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 06:21:35AM -0700, Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> There's demo code out there eg
> 
> http://www.pythonware.com/library/pil/handbook/imagefont.htm
> 
> http://www.livibetter.com/blog/2006/11/24/making-pil-font-for-python-image-library/
> 
> (look for "arial.pil")
> 
> that finds the font without doing anything special. I 
> thought that maybe there was some font path or python path 
> that allowed python to find the file without me having to do 
> anything.

In these examples, they are loading "arial.pil" from the current working
directory, whatever that happens to be at the time the script is run. That
is not production-quality code, it was simplified for demo purposes.

> I moved the files from directory to directory, hoping they'd 
> be picked up by the load command. Their current location is 
> just where they are now. If there's a canonical location, 
> I'd be happy to move them there.

Typically, I put font files with my application.  Any Python application
more complicated than a single .py file I usually put into a Python package
directory (a directory with an __init__.py file, see
http://docs.python.org/tut/node8.html#SECTION008400000000000000000). I throw
the fonts and other static data files in the same package directory as the
.py files, and then use the technique I described in my previous email to
locate the package directory, and load files relative to that directory.

Example file layout:

ApplicationHome/
    myapp.bat:
        python startapp.py
    myapp.sh:
        #!/bin/sh
        python startup.py
    startapp.py:
        import myapp.mainmodule
        myapp.mainmodule.main()
    myapp/
        __init__.py
        mainmodule.py:
            def main():
                ...
        *.py
        *.pil
        *.gif
        *.dat
        etc.

I don't know if this is "canonical", but I've seen a lot of Python
applications deployed this way. Using this technique, it is pretty easy to
make your applications cross-platform compatible. Just zip up
ApplicationHome and you've got something you can take to another machine and
run.

David H

-- 
David Handy
Computer Programming is Fun!
Beginning Computer Programming with Python
http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/



From jmack at wm7d.net  Mon Mar 31 14:19:26 2008
From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:19:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [triangle-zpug] can't find font problem
In-Reply-To: <20080331015754.GA26195@arno2>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803291826100.2856@wm7d.net>
	<20080330035119.GA16666@arno2>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803300612230.11455@wm7d.net>
	<20080331015754.GA26195@arno2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803310502350.12931@wm7d.net>

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008, David Handy wrote:

> In these examples, they are loading "arial.pil" from the current working
> directory, whatever that happens to be at the time the script is run. That
> is not production-quality code, it was simplified for demo purposes.

I see. I'd assumed it was production-quality :-(

> Typically, I put font files with my application.

OK. good to know. I'd assumed there'd be a font directory 
under python path somewhere.

(I had a wierd error from freefont a while ago, which took 
ages to track down. It was due to a bunch of fonts in 
/usr/lib/fonts, which is where ghostscript used to look for 
them. I had to remove that directory for the error to go 
away. There's nothing in the freefont/freetype documentation 
about looking outside its own font directories or in google 
to handle the error. Why can't everyone agree on a single 
directory for fonts for heaven's sake, or if they're going 
to use a different directory, to ignore the places everyone 
else puts their fonts. mutter, mutter)

> Any Python application more complicated than a single .py 
> file I usually put into a Python package directory (a 
> directory with an __init__.py file, see 
> http://docs.python.org/tut/node8.html#SECTION008400000000000000000).

got it.

> I throw the fonts and other static data files in the same 
> package directory as the .py files, and then use the 
> technique I described in my previous email to locate the 
> package directory, and load files relative to that 
> directory.

will get on to it.

> I don't know if this is "canonical", but I've seen a lot 
> of Python applications deployed this way. Using this 
> technique, it is pretty easy to make your applications 
> cross-platform compatible. Just zip up ApplicationHome and 
> you've got something you can take to another machine and 
> run.

Thanks. If the code looks normal to a python person that's 
near enough to canonical for me.

Joe

-- 
Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina
jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map
generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml
Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux!



From cbc at unc.edu  Mon Mar 31 17:58:45 2008
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:58:45 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] can't find font problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803310502350.12931@wm7d.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0803291826100.2856@wm7d.net>	<20080330035119.GA16666@arno2>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803300612230.11455@wm7d.net>	<20080331015754.GA26195@arno2>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0803310502350.12931@wm7d.net>
Message-ID: <47F10A35.2030703@unc.edu>

On 3/31/2008 8:19 AM, Joseph Mack NA3T wrote:
> I see. I'd assumed it was production-quality :-(

heh. demo code is probably never production quality. it is for demo. 
production quality requires details of your production environment. demo 
code almost always assumes you run from the demo path and have all you 
need in the demo path.

david is right about the current path. relative paths will be relative 
to your current path. you can get and set that with os.getcwd and 
os.chdir. the current path is usually where you started python.

> OK. good to know. I'd assumed there'd be a font directory 
> under python path somewhere.

the python path is for code. python uses your os for font management.

> (I had a wierd error from freefont a while ago, which took 
> ages to track down. It was due to a bunch of fonts in 
> /usr/lib/fonts, which is where ghostscript used to look for 
> them. I had to remove that directory for the error to go 
> away. There's nothing in the freefont/freetype documentation 
> about looking outside its own font directories or in google 
> to handle the error. Why can't everyone agree on a single 
> directory for fonts for heaven's sake, or if they're going 
> to use a different directory, to ignore the places everyone 
> else puts their fonts. mutter, mutter)

that's what chkfontpath and fontconfig are for.

>> I don't know if this is "canonical", but I've seen a lot 
>> of Python applications deployed this way. Using this 
>> technique, it is pretty easy to make your applications 
>> cross-platform compatible. Just zip up ApplicationHome and 
>> you've got something you can take to another machine and 
>> run.

Canonical is as David said and then create a setup.py and use either the 
sdist option to create a source distribution or the bdist_egg option to 
create an egg. Both are zipped and ready for distribution/deployment.

http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/distutils-online/
http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/python-eggs-online/

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From saelim at email.unc.edu  Mon Mar 31 20:18:39 2008
From: saelim at email.unc.edu (Billy Saelim)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:18:39 -0400
Subject: [triangle-zpug] Looking for ways to generate rich text format
Message-ID: <47F12AFF.5000802@email.unc.edu>

Hi,

I am new to Python and wonder if there is anything other than PyRTF that 
could generate RTF. 
Please let me know if you have any recommendation.

Thanks in advance.

Billy
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