From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Tue Mar  5 14:46:22 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Brett C.)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 13:46:22 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue461] Add note about the contributor
	agreement on the tracker
In-Reply-To: <1337326507.68.0.0680310875222.issue461@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1362491182.7.0.568943335926.issue461@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Brett C. added the comment:

Another idea would be to have a bar across the top that is always visible to logged in users who have not signed the CLA.
And obviously it would be great if, when they clicked the link their details from the tracker were automatically filled in the CLA form so they didn't have to enter e.g. their b.p.o username.

----------
nosy: +brett.cannon

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Tue Mar  5 14:54:35 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Ezio Melotti)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 13:54:35 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue461] Add note about the contributor
	agreement on the tracker
In-Reply-To: <1337326507.68.0.0680310875222.issue461@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1362491675.61.0.252241383103.issue461@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Ezio Melotti added the comment:

Many users never submit patches, so that would just clutter to UI for them (that's why I suggested to show only when they submit a patch).
For the automatic filling it's easy to send the username from the tracker side, but someone would have to change w.p.o to understand it and use it in the form.

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Tue Mar  5 15:09:18 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (R David Murray)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 14:09:18 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue509] Automatic update of contributor fields
	on contrib form	submission
Message-ID: <1362492558.99.0.553452217732.issue509@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


New submission from R David Murray:

Now that we have an automated CLA system, it would be great if the resulting email could also be sent to b.p.o, and a script update the 'contributor form received' checkbox and date field.  Obviously this requires cooperation from the rest of the infrastructure, and probably requires a custom address/filter program to receive the submission on the b.p.o side.

I'm interested in working on this, but it may be a while before I can, so if anyone else wants to take it, be my guest :)

The first step is to find out the incoming email will look like.

----------
messages: 2706
nosy: r.david.murray
priority: feature
status: unread
title: Automatic update of contributor fields on contrib form submission

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Tue Mar  5 16:27:10 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Ezio Melotti)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 15:27:10 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue509] Automatic update of contributor fields
	on contrib form	submission
In-Reply-To: <1362492558.99.0.553452217732.issue509@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1362497230.83.0.281131884643.issue509@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Ezio Melotti added the comment:

As discussed on IRC, I think we would anyway need a human to check that the data are "valid" before adding the "*" on the tracker.
I'm also not sure if this is really needed.  Updating the field is quite trivial, and I don't think we get so many agreements -- I could even do it myself if I knew who submitted the form.

----------
nosy: +ezio.melotti
status: unread -> chatting

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Wed Mar  6 16:16:26 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (=?utf-8?q?Martin_v=2E_L=C3=B6wis?=)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 15:16:26 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue503] OpenID provider discovery failed
In-Reply-To: <1358458692.41.0.731551385801.issue503@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1362582986.13.0.715197687749.issue503@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Martin v. L?wis added the comment:

The document returned from the URL is a text/plain document. As per OpenID spec, it ust be a HTML document, see

http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#html_disco

The implementation recognizes HTML documents from the MIME types text/html and application/xhtml+xml

----------
status: unread -> resolved

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Wed Mar  6 17:04:13 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:04:13 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue503] OpenID provider discovery failed
In-Reply-To: <1362582986.13.0.715197687749.issue503@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <958095542.15361056.1362585847182.JavaMail.root@zimbra10-e2.priv.proxad.net>


Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

> The document returned from the URL is a text/plain document. As per
> OpenID spec, it ust be a HTML document, see
> 
> http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#html_disco
> 
> The implementation recognizes HTML documents from the MIME types
> text/html and application/xhtml+xml

Do you mean the content-type header should be text/html?

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Wed Mar  6 18:44:46 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (=?utf-8?q?Martin_v=2E_L=C3=B6wis?=)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 17:44:46 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue503] OpenID provider discovery failed
In-Reply-To: <1358458692.41.0.731551385801.issue503@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1362591886.84.0.974454070686.issue503@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Martin v. L?wis added the comment:

Exactly that.

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Wed Mar  6 20:37:35 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:37:35 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue510] openid login fails with "broken form:
	multiple @action	values submitted"
Message-ID: <1362598655.8.0.499831014575.issue510@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


New submission from Antoine Pitrou:

As the title says. This happens when I try to use my OpenID URL in the login field. Perhaps this is because my browser auto-fills the password.

----------
messages: 2711
nosy: loewis, pitrou
priority: bug
status: unread
title: openid login fails with "broken form: multiple @action values submitted"

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Wed Mar  6 20:39:54 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:39:54 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue510] openid login fails with "broken form:
	multiple @action	values submitted"
In-Reply-To: <1362598655.8.0.499831014575.issue510@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1362598794.54.0.374037659351.issue510@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

Hmm, nevermind, it just worked.

----------
status: unread -> resolved

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Tue Mar 12 19:25:34 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:25:34 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue511] openid login isn't remembered
Message-ID: <1363112734.01.0.414758435296.issue511@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


New submission from Antoine Pitrou:

If I choose to login using OpenID, then I must login again each time I launch a new browser session. The text field doesn't even remember my OpenID URL.

----------
messages: 2713
nosy: ezio.melotti, pitrou
priority: bug
status: unread
title: openid login isn't remembered

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Thu Mar 14 09:51:07 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Gurmeet Singh)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:51:07 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue512] Documentation Ambiguity
Message-ID: <1363251067.2.0.39898003724.issue512@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


New submission from Gurmeet Singh:

This is the first time I am creating an issue. I may be doing something wrong. I will correct that if you make me aware about it!

Issue with documentation:
Documentation page: http://docs.python.org/3/library/os.path.html
Entry: os.path.normpath(path)
Contention line: "It should be understood that this may change the meaning of the path if it contains symbolic links!"

Ambiguity Source: Contention line immediately follows the line "On Windows, it converts forward slashes to backward slashes." relating contention line to also windows.

Ambiguity: "I think" (i.e. I do not know for sure) that, the contention line should apply to all OS, not just windows. for example, .. after a symlink should, according to me, remove the symlink itself by the normpath function. This would be an incorrect behaviour of the normpath (I consider that incorrect). Hence, should be documented for all OS.

----------
messages: 2714
nosy: gsingh
priority: bug
status: unread
title: Documentation Ambiguity
topic: Documentation

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Thu Mar 14 10:30:11 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Gurmeet Singh)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:30:11 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue513] Documentation Ambiguity 2
Message-ID: <1363253411.98.0.387210110838.issue513@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


New submission from Gurmeet Singh:

Source page: http://docs.python.org/3/library/os.html
Entry: os.walk(...)

Ambiguity Source: Name of the argument TopDown and / or its description.

The TopDown name is misleading to me. I would suggest BFS or DFS instead. TopDown false would imply to me that the traversal would run bottom up "from" the directory mentioned in the argument list (even though the name of that argument is top, it is confusing indicating a possibility of another naming mistake instead!)

----------
messages: 2715
nosy: gsingh
priority: bug
status: unread
title: Documentation Ambiguity 2
topic: Documentation

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Thu Mar 14 10:31:29 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Georg Brandl)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:31:29 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue512] Documentation Ambiguity
In-Reply-To: <1363251067.2.0.39898003724.issue512@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1363253489.35.0.34066231237.issue512@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Georg Brandl added the comment:

Hi Gurmeet,

this is no the tracker for the Python distribution, but for bugs in its tracker.  Please submit your issues to http://bugs.python.org/.

Thanks!

----------
nosy: +gbrandl
status: unread -> resolved

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Thu Mar 14 10:35:14 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Gurmeet Singh)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:35:14 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue512] Documentation Ambiguity
In-Reply-To: <1363253489.35.0.34066231237.issue512@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <CAMo-nb8TPt0N8Ei5HEUkNxT8QqpZTrOufwbZxpqeetrQoPuHjQ@mail.gmail.com>


Gurmeet Singh added the comment:

Dear Georg,

  I guess I made a mistake of posting on wrong forum.

  Can you please suggest if I can submit documentation bugs to
bugs.python.org

Gurmeet

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Georg Brandl <
metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za> wrote:

>
> Georg Brandl added the comment:
>
> Hi Gurmeet,
>
> this is no the tracker for the Python distribution, but for bugs in its
> tracker.  Please submit your issues to http://bugs.python.org/.
>
> Thanks!
>
> ----------
> nosy: +gbrandl
> status: unread -> resolved
>
> _______________________________________________________
> PSF Meta Tracker <metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
> <http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/meta/issue512>
> _______________________________________________________
>

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Thu Mar 14 18:23:51 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (=?utf-8?q?Martin_v=2E_L=C3=B6wis?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:23:51 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue511] openid login isn't remembered
In-Reply-To: <1363112734.01.0.414758435296.issue511@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1363281831.01.0.996490361441.issue511@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Martin v. L?wis added the comment:

I fail to see the issue. Whether or not the browser saves the form value is a browser issue (and possible a user issue, for configuring the browser appropriately), not one of Roundup.

The OpenID specification defines that Roundup should give a hint, by calling the field openid_identifier

http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#initiation

Roundup does so conformingly; if the browser than choses to not save the value, I don't think we (the round maintainers) can do anything about it.

----------
nosy: +loewis
status: unread -> chatting

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Thu Mar 14 18:29:41 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (=?utf-8?q?Martin_v=2E_L=C3=B6wis?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:29:41 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue511] openid login isn't remembered
In-Reply-To: <1363112734.01.0.414758435296.issue511@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1363282181.33.0.493182655586.issue511@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>


Martin v. L?wis added the comment:

follow-up: apparently, there are browser-specific plugins (like "OpenID for Firefox" or "OpenID Autofill" for Chrome) which you may want to used. 

As for having to relogin: I cannot reproduce this. With Chrome, the session happily survives a browser restart.

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From metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za  Thu Mar 14 20:03:07 2013
From: metatracker at psf.upfronthosting.co.za (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:03:07 +0000
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] [issue511] openid login isn't remembered
In-Reply-To: <1363282181.33.0.493182655586.issue511@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
Message-ID: <1363287552.3438.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>


Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

> As for having to relogin: I cannot reproduce this. With Chrome, the
> session happily survives a browser restart.

Hum, you're right, it does. Perhaps it is that the cookie has a short
lifetime. Or perhaps there was something else interfering.

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From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Mar 17 00:56:12 2013
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 02:56:12 +0300
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] PyCon Sprints for Roundup
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Is there anyone at PyCon with Roundup experience, who can organize some
plumbing works for the b.p.o on there? I will try to be online for the time
of the sprints, and if somebody can organize people on-site I'd be
available to hack on Roundup.

The major goal is to lower the barrier to let people start hacking at
Roundup. The secondary goal it to I am not sure about the Python 3 porting,
but currently b.p.o uses a patched version of Roundup, which is no good. If
something is useful for b.p.o - it should be shared with Roundup community
too.

We've made a somewhat detailed plan at
http://piratepad.net/bugs-python-org- would be nice to see
bugs.python.org among Sprint projects -
https://us.pycon.org/2013/community/sprints/

-- 
anatoly t.
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From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Sun Mar 17 02:28:21 2013
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:28:21 -0400
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] PyCon Sprints for Roundup
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130317012822.0F1DE2500B3@webabinitio.net>

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 02:56:12 +0300, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> The major goal is to lower the barrier to let people start hacking at
> Roundup. The secondary goal it to I am not sure about the Python 3 porting,
> but currently b.p.o uses a patched version of Roundup, which is no good. If
> something is useful for b.p.o - it should be shared with Roundup community
> too.

I believe Ezio has filed all his new patches that are applicable
upstream, some of which have been taken up.   I'm not sure of the status
of the older patches, I haven't looked at what they are.

> We've made a somewhat detailed plan at
> http://piratepad.net/bugs-python-org- would be nice to see
> bugs.python.org among Sprint projects -
> https://us.pycon.org/2013/community/sprints/

It's a bit too late to propose that, I think.  Ezio isn't here, I'm
leading the Core sprint, and Martin I suspect has his own plans for the
sprint (I'm not sure how long he is staying).  I don't think there is
anyone else who would even think about doing it.  It doesn't look like
anyone is sprinting on roundup itself.

--David

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Mar 17 09:21:25 2013
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 11:21:25 +0300
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] PyCon Sprints for Roundup
In-Reply-To: <20130317012822.0F1DE2500B3@webabinitio.net>
References: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130317012822.0F1DE2500B3@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xKb8Bsr1jFCBFUw8wsPAAcAndYKAH_8uVw5sH0-31K5VQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 4:28 AM, R. David Murray <rdmurray at bitdance.com>wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 02:56:12 +0300, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The major goal is to lower the barrier to let people start hacking at
> > Roundup. The secondary goal it to I am not sure about the Python 3
> porting,
> > but currently b.p.o uses a patched version of Roundup, which is no good.
> If
> > something is useful for b.p.o - it should be shared with Roundup
> community
> > too.
>
> I believe Ezio has filed all his new patches that are applicable
> upstream, some of which have been taken up.   I'm not sure of the status
> of the older patches, I haven't looked at what they are.


b.p.o still uses patched version of Roundup while with a full upstream
commit access it should use standard version. And these are buried inside
version control history. These should be stored as a patch queue until
merged or until there is a API to transform them into Roundup extensions.


> > We've made a somewhat detailed plan at
> > http://piratepad.net/bugs-python-org- would be nice to see
> > bugs.python.org among Sprint projects -
> > https://us.pycon.org/2013/community/sprints/
>
> It's a bit too late to propose that, I think.  Ezio isn't here, I'm
> leading the Core sprint, and Martin I suspect has his own plans for the
> sprint (I'm not sure how long he is staying).  I don't think there is
> anyone else who would even think about doing it.  It doesn't look like
> anyone is sprinting on roundup itself.


We need to recruit more people then. I am sure there are many people out
there who are interested to help. Should we concentrate on outreach website
instead? =)
-- 
anatoly t.
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From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar 20 00:41:24 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 08:41:24 +0900
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] PyCon Sprints for Roundup
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xKb8Bsr1jFCBFUw8wsPAAcAndYKAH_8uVw5sH0-31K5VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130317012822.0F1DE2500B3@webabinitio.net>
	<CAPkN8xKb8Bsr1jFCBFUw8wsPAAcAndYKAH_8uVw5sH0-31K5VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <878v5jdkkb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

anatoly techtonik writes:

 > b.p.o still uses patched version of Roundup while with a full upstream
 > commit access it should use standard version.

As far as I can tell, you're suggesting that Python should take over
and/or try to dictate to another established project.  I don't think
that's a good idea.  If you really think these things are that
important, go work with upstream, get commit access there yourself.

 > We need to recruit more people then.

Who's this "we"?  I'm perfectly happy with b.p.o, I don't need it to
turn into facebook.python.org.  But feel free to go recruiting.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed Mar 20 08:26:19 2013
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:26:19 +0300
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] PyCon Sprints for Roundup
In-Reply-To: <878v5jdkkb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130317012822.0F1DE2500B3@webabinitio.net>
	<CAPkN8xKb8Bsr1jFCBFUw8wsPAAcAndYKAH_8uVw5sH0-31K5VQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<878v5jdkkb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xLjCOypHbP+w5BDj6yFSEfgBum2zO46L3R6N6H3jVQ_sw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>wrote:

> anatoly techtonik writes:
>
>  > b.p.o still uses patched version of Roundup while with a full upstream
>  > commit access it should use standard version.
>
> As far as I can tell, you're suggesting that Python should take over
> and/or try to dictate to another established project.  I don't think
> that's a good idea.  If you really think these things are that
> important, go work with upstream, get commit access there yourself.


You're wrong. I did't even have a slight though about making Python take
over another established product. I am speaking about the culture of eating
your own dogfood and collaborating with upstream. Don't you think that
changes that are made to b.p.o like one click OpenID/OAuth support and
revisions linking in text messages are useful to all users of Roundup? Do
you want Roundup to monitor b.p.o and all other projects to merge useful
changes back? I know the person who took the problem of merging patches
from b.p.o to Roundup seriously, and looking at his logs, I must say that
he spent a lot of time - maybe even weeks trying to cut the changes from
the b.p.o version and split it to be a manageable Roundup fork. And FWIW, I
already have commit access for Roundup.


>  > We need to recruit more people then.
>
> Who's this "we"?  I'm perfectly happy with b.p.o, I don't need it to
> turn into facebook.python.org.  But feel free to go recruiting.
>

Facebook supports open source initiatives all right -
http://www.opencompute.org/, and GitHub, if you look at it, is a social
platform. If you don't want b.p.o to be the place where people communicate
and coordinate in a human way, then I bet you'd more comfortable using
Excel for your own tasks, so thanks for caring about independence of
Roundup from Python hackers.

Am I angry at you accusing me of something that is not true, maybe I am
misunderstanding something, but there is nothing personal. So I hope that
when (if) it turns out to be something good in the end, you won't have
reasons to resist in accepting that it is cool. CU. ;)
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From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Wed Mar 20 18:45:30 2013
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:45:30 -0400
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] PyCon Sprints for Roundup
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xLjCOypHbP+w5BDj6yFSEfgBum2zO46L3R6N6H3jVQ_sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130317012822.0F1DE2500B3@webabinitio.net>
	<CAPkN8xKb8Bsr1jFCBFUw8wsPAAcAndYKAH_8uVw5sH0-31K5VQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<878v5jdkkb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAPkN8xLjCOypHbP+w5BDj6yFSEfgBum2zO46L3R6N6H3jVQ_sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130320174531.34AFB250BC1@webabinitio.net>

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:26:19 +0300, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> You're wrong. I did't even have a slight though about making Python take
> over another established product. I am speaking about the culture of eating
> your own dogfood and collaborating with upstream. Don't you think that
> changes that are made to b.p.o like one click OpenID/OAuth support and
> revisions linking in text messages are useful to all users of Roundup? Do
> you want Roundup to monitor b.p.o and all other projects to merge useful
> changes back? I know the person who took the problem of merging patches
> from b.p.o to Roundup seriously, and looking at his logs, I must say that
> he spent a lot of time - maybe even weeks trying to cut the changes from
> the b.p.o version and split it to be a manageable Roundup fork. And FWIW, I
> already have commit access for Roundup.

Some context for you.  For a good portion of the time that b.p.o was
diverging from base roundup, there were no active roundup developers.
This happens sometimes in open source projects.  But more than that,
for quite a while Martin was the only one doing any maintenance on
our roundup.  He is a very busy man, and we are all thankful for his
contributions.  I personally am very glad he took the time to write
the openid support, given that when he did there were no good generally
available packages to do that in Python (are there any now?).  The fact
that he didn't also choose to take the non-trivial amount of time needed
to also contribute it upstream doesn't bother me; his priority was our
tracker.  If someone else wants to exact it and contribute it upstream
I'm pretty sure he'll be happy about that.

The point is that he chose to volunteer his time in that way, and our
role is simply to thank him for that work...and then decide what volunteer
work we wish to do, possibly building upon Martin's work.

So, getting the changes that have been made to roundup in b.p.o
upstream (when appropriate!) is a laudable goal, and your contributions
to that goal are welcome.

However, what we perceive as your attitude is, as usual, not helpful.
You appear to us to approach us confrontationally, whether that is the
intent behind your words or not.  Please assume that we also want to
make the world a better place, and ask (or suggest) how you can best
help to do that.  Good things are more likely to happen that way.

If we think that you are accusing us of neglecting our duties, you
won't get much traction toward your goals.  We are all doing what we
do voluntarily, because we want to do it.  Treat us as valuable, treat
us with respect, and you will get much better results (and you will get
respect in return).

Let me make this very concrete.  You said:

> The major goal is to lower the barrier to let people start hacking at
> Roundup. The secondary goal it to I am not sure about the Python 3
> porting, but currently b.p.o uses a patched version of Roundup, which is
> no good.  If something is useful for b.p.o - it should be shared with
> Roundup community too.

The trigger words in that paragraph were "which is no good" and "it
should be shared".  Those phrases in this context in English convey the
attitude "you guys are doing it wrong" and "you don't want to share".
Neither of those implications is true.  We are doing what works for
the Python project, and Ezio has even made time to contribute patches
upstream.  And we are happy to share, it's just that someone will need to
do the work to make that happen.  If you are volunteering, that's great.
If you can recruit other people to help, that's even better.

Here is an example of what you *could* have written:

  The major goal is to lower the barrier to let people start hacking at
  Roundup. The secondary goal is to promote all of the local
  modifications to roundup upstream, so that we can get to a place
  where b.p.o is no longer running a patched version of Roundup.  That
  way the whole Roundup community can take advantage of the fixes
  that have been made to b.p.o., and our maintenance burden will
  be reduced.

Can you see the difference in apparent attitude in my rewrite of your
words?  Same goal, but *cooperative* rather than *confrontational*.

--David

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 23 16:27:33 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 00:27:33 +0900
Subject: [Tracker-discuss] PyCon Sprints for Roundup
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xLjCOypHbP+w5BDj6yFSEfgBum2zO46L3R6N6H3jVQ_sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xJUt1+ej6VW0R6+SKFLeaWDu6=fY3+ykP=0Wcs5V_g1AQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130317012822.0F1DE2500B3@webabinitio.net>
	<CAPkN8xKb8Bsr1jFCBFUw8wsPAAcAndYKAH_8uVw5sH0-31K5VQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<878v5jdkkb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAPkN8xLjCOypHbP+w5BDj6yFSEfgBum2zO46L3R6N6H3jVQ_sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87txo2cf16.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

anatoly techtonik writes:

 > And FWIW, I already have commit access for Roundup.

Then I don't understand the tone of your post to tracker-discuss at
all.  You have the itch, you should scratch it, and you have the
access to do that (the Python tracker code is public and I assume
appropriately licensed).  If you're trying but need help, why not say
"I need help"?  If you're not trying to do that, why don't those
principles apply to you?

The Python developers are all quite aware of the benefits of
contributing back upstream.  Therefore *I* infer that contributing
back to Roundup was not as simple as requesting and exercising commit
access.  I wonder why you don't make the same inference, or perhaps
communicate that awareness in your posts if you have made it?

 > If you don't want b.p.o to be the place where people communicate
 > and coordinate in a human way, then I bet you'd more comfortable
 > using Excel for your own tasks, so thanks for caring about
 > independence of Roundup from Python hackers.

b.p.o is already a place where humans communicate in human ways.  What
else could it be?  I suppose there could be more efficient or more
pleasant ways of communicating, or more similar to the way people
communicate in daily life, but the suggestions you've made in the past
(e.g., voting on bugs) have never struck me as ways to make Python
*development* more pleasant or more efficient (both personal opinions,
but that is sufficient reason to refrain from supporting a
suggestion).  I can see where some people might *enjoy* having those
features; but (to repeat), I don't see a benefit to the development
process to outweigh the cost of providing, maintaining, and using
them.  It would seem from the reaction of the tracker maintainers
(they rarely, if ever, take up your suggestions) that you have not
succeeded in convincing them of the benefits of those suggestions,
either.

 > Am I angry at you accusing me of something that is not true,

I'm not accusing you of something that is not true.  I am telling you
what your words mean to me.  Note the first six words you quoted:

 > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>wrote:
 > > As far as I can tell, you're suggesting that Python should take
 > > over and/or try to dictate to another established project.

As a participant in Python mailing lists, my duty is to read your
*words*, not your mind.  If it were just me, you could (and perhaps
should) ignore me.  But AFAICT I'm giving voice to opinions held by
many on Python lists.  If they're based on misunderstanding, it's your
place to correct that misunderstanding, or, better, avoid causing it
in the first place.