From ubershmekel at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 13:38:33 2012
From: ubershmekel at gmail.com (Yuval Greenfield)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:38:33 +0300
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
Message-ID: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>

What do you guys think about including a very simple game with the standard
library?

My very first lines of code were modifications to a QBasic game called
"nibbles" which came with QBasic. A memory dear to my heart and CV. The
world has changed and nowadays it's much easier to download whatever,
though I think this would still be useful for our younger downloaders:

* As a reason to poke and tinker around c:\python33\Lib\ or
/usr/lib/python3.3/
* To give a simple, sample Tk app.
* "import turtle" is nice but at 4K lines, we can do simpler. Also, as a
game it's mainly interesting for a very young demographic I believe.
* A simple, fun, readable, moddable, Tk game is possible at 200-400 lines
or about 10KB of uncompressed code.
* As another neat "Python is fun" example, ? la "import antigravity"


Yuval Greenfield
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From mal at egenix.com  Thu Aug 16 14:08:25 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:08:25 +0200
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <502CE2B9.10302@egenix.com>

Yuval Greenfield wrote:
> What do you guys think about including a very simple game with the standard
> library?

Great idea !

> My very first lines of code were modifications to a QBasic game called
> "nibbles" which came with QBasic. A memory dear to my heart and CV. The
> world has changed and nowadays it's much easier to download whatever,
> though I think this would still be useful for our younger downloaders:
> 
> * As a reason to poke and tinker around c:\python33\Lib\ or
> /usr/lib/python3.3/
> * To give a simple, sample Tk app.
> * "import turtle" is nice but at 4K lines, we can do simpler. Also, as a
> game it's mainly interesting for a very young demographic I believe.
> * A simple, fun, readable, moddable, Tk game is possible at 200-400 lines
> or about 10KB of uncompressed code.
> * As another neat "Python is fun" example, ? la "import antigravity"

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Aug 16 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-08-25: FrOSCon, St. Augustin, Germany ...              9 days to go

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    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
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               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/



From brett at python.org  Thu Aug 16 17:43:29 2012
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 11:43:29 -0400
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Yuval Greenfield <ubershmekel at gmail.com>wrote:

> What do you guys think about including a very simple game with the
> standard library?
>
>
So this is the kind of thing that would lead to arguments about "what
game?" The general concept works for me, though if something can be agreed
upon.


> My very first lines of code were modifications to a QBasic game called
> "nibbles" which came with QBasic. A memory dear to my heart and CV. The
> world has changed and nowadays it's much easier to download whatever,
> though I think this would still be useful for our younger downloaders:
>
> * As a reason to poke and tinker around c:\python33\Lib\ or
> /usr/lib/python3.3/
> * To give a simple, sample Tk app.
>

That does screw over OS X users since their version of Tk by default is
crap unless you also provide a non-GUI version.

-Brett C.


> * "import turtle" is nice but at 4K lines, we can do simpler. Also, as a
> game it's mainly interesting for a very young demographic I believe.
> * A simple, fun, readable, moddable, Tk game is possible at 200-400 lines
> or about 10KB of uncompressed code.
> * As another neat "Python is fun" example, ? la "import antigravity"
>
>
> Yuval Greenfield
>
> _______________________________________________
> stdlib-sig mailing list
> stdlib-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/stdlib-sig
>
>
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From christian at cheimes.de  Thu Aug 16 20:31:39 2012
From: christian at cheimes.de (Christian Heimes)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:31:39 +0200
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <502D3C8B.7070800@cheimes.de>

Am 16.08.2012 17:43, schrieb Brett Cannon:
> So this is the kind of thing that would lead to arguments about "what
> game?" The general concept works for me, though if something can be
> agreed upon.

Isn't it obvious to you? We are talking about Python! There is just one
mini game that fits:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_%28video_game%29

Yuval has mentioned Nibbles in his initial posting. Nibbles was a Snake
clone in QBasic that was shipped with MS DOS.

Christian


From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Aug 16 20:34:38 2012
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:34:38 +0200
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <502D3C8B.7070800@cheimes.de>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<502D3C8B.7070800@cheimes.de>
Message-ID: <1345142078.3382.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Le jeudi 16 ao?t 2012 ? 20:31 +0200, Christian Heimes a ?crit :
> Am 16.08.2012 17:43, schrieb Brett Cannon:
> > So this is the kind of thing that would lead to arguments about "what
> > game?" The general concept works for me, though if something can be
> > agreed upon.
> 
> Isn't it obvious to you? We are talking about Python! There is just one
> mini game that fits:
> 
>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_%28video_game%29
> 
> Yuval has mentioned Nibbles in his initial posting. Nibbles was a Snake
> clone in QBasic that was shipped with MS DOS.

The main issue IMHO is that snake was a well-known gaming reference in
the 80s/early 90s, but it's not nowadays. Perhaps a "demonstration game
in the stdlib" should mimick one of the popular games of today (a simple
one obviously, not World of Warcraft :-)).

Regards

Antoine.


-- 
Software development and contracting: http://pro.pitrou.net



From brett at python.org  Thu Aug 16 20:40:10 2012
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:40:10 -0400
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <1345142078.3382.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<502D3C8B.7070800@cheimes.de>
	<1345142078.3382.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W5D+0h04YpLO5vEgKBUb15zwnV8Z9-ZM4Z94zF2su4NdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:

> Le jeudi 16 ao?t 2012 ? 20:31 +0200, Christian Heimes a ?crit :
> > Am 16.08.2012 17:43, schrieb Brett Cannon:
> > > So this is the kind of thing that would lead to arguments about "what
> > > game?" The general concept works for me, though if something can be
> > > agreed upon.
> >
> > Isn't it obvious to you? We are talking about Python! There is just one
> > mini game that fits:
> >
> >   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_%28video_game%29
> >
> > Yuval has mentioned Nibbles in his initial posting. Nibbles was a Snake
> > clone in QBasic that was shipped with MS DOS.
>
> The main issue IMHO is that snake was a well-known gaming reference in
> the 80s/early 90s, but it's not nowadays. Perhaps a "demonstration game
> in the stdlib" should mimick one of the popular games of today (a simple
> one obviously, not World of Warcraft :-)).
>

Nah, that's no fun. =) Plus the game is simple enough that those who don't
know it can pick it up quickly.

Regardless, we do have to make sure the game is dead-simple to implement so
the code and be clean and easy to read.
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From cfbolz at gmx.de  Thu Aug 16 20:48:16 2012
From: cfbolz at gmx.de (Carl Friedrich Bolz)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:48:16 +0200
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <1345142078.3382.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<502D3C8B.7070800@cheimes.de>
	<1345142078.3382.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <502D4070.2080203@gmx.de>

On 08/16/2012 08:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le jeudi 16 ao?t 2012 ? 20:31 +0200, Christian Heimes a ?crit :
>> Am 16.08.2012 17:43, schrieb Brett Cannon:
>>> So this is the kind of thing that would lead to arguments about "what
>>> game?" The general concept works for me, though if something can be
>>> agreed upon.
>>
>> Isn't it obvious to you? We are talking about Python! There is just one
>> mini game that fits:
>>
>>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_%28video_game%29
>>
>> Yuval has mentioned Nibbles in his initial posting. Nibbles was a Snake
>> clone in QBasic that was shipped with MS DOS.
>
> The main issue IMHO is that snake was a well-known gaming reference in
> the 80s/early 90s, but it's not nowadays. Perhaps a "demonstration game
> in the stdlib" should mimick one of the popular games of today (a simple
> one obviously, not World of Warcraft :-)).

Angry Birds is clearly the answer :-).

Anyway, I guess such a game would belong more into the Demo directory?

Cheers,

Carl Friedrich


From christian at cheimes.de  Thu Aug 16 20:52:20 2012
From: christian at cheimes.de (Christian Heimes)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:52:20 +0200
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W5D+0h04YpLO5vEgKBUb15zwnV8Z9-ZM4Z94zF2su4NdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<502D3C8B.7070800@cheimes.de>
	<1345142078.3382.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<CAP1=2W5D+0h04YpLO5vEgKBUb15zwnV8Z9-ZM4Z94zF2su4NdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <502D4164.7030504@cheimes.de>

Am 16.08.2012 20:40, schrieb Brett Cannon:
> Nah, that's no fun. =) Plus the game is simple enough that those who
> don't know it can pick it up quickly.
> 
> Regardless, we do have to make sure the game is dead-simple to implement
> so the code and be clean and easy to read.

Plus we should avoid to get a PG or R rating for Python. ;)

Another bonus for a a simple game with simple graphics like Snakes: it's
easily possible to create an interface for ncurses and TK.

Christian


From nad at acm.org  Thu Aug 16 21:08:59 2012
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 12:08:59 -0700
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <nad-1601CC.12085916082012@news.gmane.org>

In article 
<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ at mail.gmail.com>,
 Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Yuval Greenfield 
> <ubershmekel at gmail.com>wrote:
> > What do you guys think about including a very simple game with the
> > standard library?
> So this is the kind of thing that would lead to arguments about "what
> game?" The general concept works for me, though if something can be agreed
> upon.
> 
> 
> > My very first lines of code were modifications to a QBasic game called
> > "nibbles" which came with QBasic. A memory dear to my heart and CV. The
> > world has changed and nowadays it's much easier to download whatever,
> > though I think this would still be useful for our younger downloaders:
> >
> > * As a reason to poke and tinker around c:\python33\Lib\ or
> > /usr/lib/python3.3/
> > * To give a simple, sample Tk app.
> >
> 
> That does screw over OS X users since their version of Tk by default is
> crap unless you also provide a non-GUI version.

> > * "import turtle" is nice but at 4K lines, we can do simpler. Also, as a
> > game it's mainly interesting for a very young demographic I believe.
> > * A simple, fun, readable, moddable, Tk game is possible at 200-400 lines
> > or about 10KB of uncompressed code.
> > * As another neat "Python is fun" example, a la "import antigravity"

Not that there shouldn't be more but what about python3 -m turtledemo ?   
That gives easy access to the source to a number of game-like demos in a 
simple and elegant interface.  (And it works fine on OS X with that 
"crap" Tk, using ActiveTcl.)

http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/turtle.html#demo-scripts

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org


From ubershmekel at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 13:27:41 2012
From: ubershmekel at gmail.com (Yuval Greenfield)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 14:27:41 +0300
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Yuval Greenfield <ubershmekel at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> What do you guys think about including a very simple game with the
>> standard library?
>>
>>
> So this is the kind of thing that would lead to arguments about "what
> game?" The general concept works for me, though if something can be agreed
> upon.
>
>
>> My very first lines of code were modifications to a QBasic game called
>> "nibbles" which came with QBasic. A memory dear to my heart and CV. The
>> world has changed and nowadays it's much easier to download whatever,
>> though I think this would still be useful for our younger downloaders:
>>
>> * As a reason to poke and tinker around c:\python33\Lib\ or
>> /usr/lib/python3.3/
>> * To give a simple, sample Tk app.
>>
>
> That does screw over OS X users since their version of Tk by default is
> crap unless you also provide a non-GUI version.
>
> -Brett C.
>
>
I installed virtual box and OS X just to test this and a Tk nibbles clone I
made seems to work fine. I tested also on Windows7 and Ubuntu 12.04.

https://raw.github.com/ubershmekel/nibbles/master/nibbles.py

So I'm not sure what you mean by "screw over OS X users".

Yuval
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From guido at python.org  Fri Aug 17 16:42:19 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:42:19 -0700
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Frankly I'm against the idea of any type of *application* in the
stdlib proper. The stdlib exists to support writing other programs. It
should not contain self-contained programs (some testing utilities
excepted).

I'm totally fine with adding a game to the Demos directory in the
distro -- that's what it's for.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From brett at python.org  Fri Aug 17 18:01:45 2012
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:01:45 -0400
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

> Frankly I'm against the idea of any type of *application* in the
> stdlib proper. The stdlib exists to support writing other programs. It
> should not contain self-contained programs (some testing utilities
> excepted).
>
> I'm totally fine with adding a game to the Demos directory in the
> distro -- that's what it's for.
>

Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.
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From guido at python.org  Fri Aug 17 19:34:32 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 10:34:32 -0700
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh well, the first paragraph stands. :)

--Guido van Rossum (sent from Android phone)
On Aug 17, 2012 9:02 AM, "Brett Cannon" <brett at python.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>wrote:
>
>> Frankly I'm against the idea of any type of *application* in the
>> stdlib proper. The stdlib exists to support writing other programs. It
>> should not contain self-contained programs (some testing utilities
>> excepted).
>>
>> I'm totally fine with adding a game to the Demos directory in the
>> distro -- that's what it's for.
>>
>
> Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.
>
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From brett at python.org  Sat Aug 18 03:11:43 2012
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 21:11:43 -0400
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

> Oh well, the first paragraph stands. :)
>
Yep, so I consider the idea dead.

-Brett



> --Guido van Rossum (sent from Android phone)
> On Aug 17, 2012 9:02 AM, "Brett Cannon" <brett at python.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly I'm against the idea of any type of *application* in the
>>> stdlib proper. The stdlib exists to support writing other programs. It
>>> should not contain self-contained programs (some testing utilities
>>> excepted).
>>>
>>> I'm totally fine with adding a game to the Demos directory in the
>>> distro -- that's what it's for.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.
>>
>
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From nad at acm.org  Sat Aug 18 03:33:58 2012
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:33:58 -0700
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>

In article 
<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw at mail.gmail.com>,
 Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.

Rather than being totally nuked in 3.2, didn't the old Demos directory 
just get pruned and cleaned up and then moved to underneath the Tools 
directory as Tools/demo?

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org


From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Sat Aug 18 04:11:40 2012
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:11:40 -0400
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>

On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:33:58 -0700, Ned Deily <nad at acm.org> wrote:
> In article 
> <CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw at mail.gmail.com>,
>  Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> > Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.
> 
> Rather than being totally nuked in 3.2, didn't the old Demos directory 
> just get pruned and cleaned up and then moved to underneath the Tools 
> directory as Tools/demo?

Yes.

Not only that, but there are already some tkinter demos, though they
are not games.

--David

From list at qtrac.plus.com  Sat Aug 18 10:32:29 2012
From: list at qtrac.plus.com (Mark Summerfield)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:32:29 +0100
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>
	<20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <20120818093229.47ad395c@dino>

On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:11:40 -0400
"R. David Murray" <rdmurray at bitdance.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:33:58 -0700, Ned Deily <nad at acm.org> wrote:
> > In article 
> > <CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw at mail.gmail.com>,
> >  Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> > > Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.
> > 
> > Rather than being totally nuked in 3.2, didn't the old Demos directory 
> > just get pruned and cleaned up and then moved to underneath the Tools 
> > directory as Tools/demo?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Not only that, but there are already some tkinter demos, though they
> are not games.

I have Perl/Tk versions of snake and tetris that're ~1500 LOC. If I
dropped the handling of options and made them all constants (board size,
timing interval, board colors, etc.) that would take them down to ~950
LOC.

I would be happy to port one of them to Python/Tkinter and I'm pretty
sure I could reduce the size even further without compromising on
readability.

I also have a Python/Tkinter version of tilefall (samegame) that's ~1200
LOC, but again, if I made all the options constants & did some other
simplifications to the GUI I could easily get that down to ~800 LOC or
less.

Or maybe the person who suggested adding a game to Tools/demo already
has their own game in mind:-)

PS I notice that in Tools/demo for 3.3b02 redemo.py doesn't have
execute permissions but all the others do.

-- 
Mark Summerfield, Qtrac Ltd, www.qtrac.eu
    C++, Python, Qt, PyQt - training and consultancy
        "Rapid GUI Programming with Python and Qt" - ISBN 0132354187
            http://www.qtrac.eu/pyqtbook.html

From mal at egenix.com  Sat Aug 18 11:38:11 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:38:11 +0200
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <20120818093229.47ad395c@dino>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>
	<20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>
	<20120818093229.47ad395c@dino>
Message-ID: <502F6283.8020606@egenix.com>

Mark Summerfield wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:11:40 -0400
> "R. David Murray" <rdmurray at bitdance.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:33:58 -0700, Ned Deily <nad at acm.org> wrote:
>>> In article 
>>> <CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw at mail.gmail.com>,
>>>  Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
>>>> Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.
>>>
>>> Rather than being totally nuked in 3.2, didn't the old Demos directory 
>>> just get pruned and cleaned up and then moved to underneath the Tools 
>>> directory as Tools/demo?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Not only that, but there are already some tkinter demos, though they
>> are not games.
> 
> I have Perl/Tk versions of snake and tetris that're ~1500 LOC. If I
> dropped the handling of options and made them all constants (board size,
> timing interval, board colors, etc.) that would take them down to ~950
> LOC.
> 
> I would be happy to port one of them to Python/Tkinter and I'm pretty
> sure I could reduce the size even further without compromising on
> readability.
> 
> I also have a Python/Tkinter version of tilefall (samegame) that's ~1200
> LOC, but again, if I made all the options constants & did some other
> simplifications to the GUI I could easily get that down to ~800 LOC or
> less.
> 
> Or maybe the person who suggested adding a game to Tools/demo already
> has their own game in mind:-)

Please note that we cannot add games to Python for which
the owners of the IP claim copyrights, patents or trademarks.
Tetris is one such game.

Tic-tac-toe would be a good example of
a popular game (even if simplistic) that does not have such
problems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tic-tac-toe).
It's also simple enough to demonstrate writing such
games in Python.

Snake would work as well, since the company owning the
IP closed down in 1984
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_%28game%29).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Aug 18 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-08-25: FrOSCon, St. Augustin, Germany ...              7 days to go

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/



From nad at acm.org  Sat Aug 18 21:27:58 2012
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 12:27:58 -0700
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>
	<20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>
	<20120818093229.47ad395c@dino>
Message-ID: <nad-0C96D0.12275818082012@news.gmane.org>

In article <20120818093229.47ad395c at dino>,
 Mark Summerfield <list at qtrac.plus.com> wrote:
> PS I notice that in Tools/demo for 3.3b02 redemo.py doesn't have
> execute permissions but all the others do.

(Now fixed.)

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org


From ubershmekel at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 22:28:44 2012
From: ubershmekel at gmail.com (Yuval Greenfield)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:28:44 +0300
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <20120818093229.47ad395c@dino>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>
	<20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>
	<20120818093229.47ad395c@dino>
Message-ID: <CANSw7Kzxt_hNdrv8kzqsXs_na529ASB2YeWgAUcvpBTJKLfhxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Mark Summerfield <list at qtrac.plus.com>wrote:

>
> I have Perl/Tk versions of snake and tetris that're ~1500 LOC. If I
> dropped the handling of options and made them all constants (board size,
> timing interval, board colors, etc.) that would take them down to ~950
> LOC.
>
> I would be happy to port one of them to Python/Tkinter and I'm pretty
> sure I could reduce the size even further without compromising on
> readability.
>
> I also have a Python/Tkinter version of tilefall (samegame) that's ~1200
> LOC, but again, if I made all the options constants & did some other
> simplifications to the GUI I could easily get that down to ~800 LOC or
> less.
>
> Or maybe the person who suggested adding a game to Tools/demo already
> has their own game in mind:-)
>
>
I don't know how'd we decide which game to include. Most things on these
lists are decided by popular vote or BDFL intervention. But perhaps we
should charter candidates from outside the mailing lists, it could be a fun
contest and publicity stunt.

I'd say under 1000 pep8 lines, and choose a winner or two by votes for
readability and fun by the mailing list frequenters or BDFL.

I say 1K as it shouldn't really be a full game with cinematic intro and
outro but more of a fun tech demo that a novice could wrap their head
around.

Yuval


p.s. concerning the snake - I have created a 2-player, 270 line, Tk version
https://github.com/ubershmekel/nibbles
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From ubershmekel at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 22:37:51 2012
From: ubershmekel at gmail.com (Yuval Greenfield)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:37:51 +0300
Subject: [stdlib-sig] A game in the standard library
In-Reply-To: <20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>
References: <CANSw7KyrP2TNRRKgAdUninacOL496F42_6B4unKUqOwM=0s6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W5h9QUKvNJjrw-bez-N92rpxxCp5qNO=oL6Wko90oPFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANSw7KzEzj2pREqdgV7wkBdcK3zFa1QxBYzf8-zHBk0B26Vt_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLqCg7N0vYr+FAqqb2QuZ0tagdVtx+hHgdAXW8zbWoSBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W4jj5=WL4J8_LVxeR0HeZnwFycOhKx2KLJBbVYFGH-nVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJLDA1OnR8Twwrngt8gahHRqiHmvX187RTrxbqrM1hG6nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<nad-A4CDBB.18335817082012@news.gmane.org>
	<20120818021140.973E525016C@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <CANSw7KyyxdzVkiQtEb2uT0GNnC1SsgLF0t02JZw5xLc2nFv2dQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:11 AM, R. David Murray <rdmurray at bitdance.com>wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:33:58 -0700, Ned Deily <nad at acm.org> wrote:
> > In article
> > <CAP1=2W6eSDbP9W6EZWP7=PuYy8pa8Dg+MA1SyJ35LEwQOZ_zZw at mail.gmail.com>,
> >  Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> > > Wrong tense as the Demos directory got nuked in Python 3.2.
> >
> > Rather than being totally nuked in 3.2, didn't the old Demos directory
> > just get pruned and cleaned up and then moved to underneath the Tools
> > directory as Tools/demo?
>
> Yes.
>
> Not only that, but there are already some tkinter demos, though they
> are not games.
>
>
I found Tools/demo in the hg tree but it wasn't installed on windows for
me. I'm guessing it was just never included in cpython\Tools\msi\msi.py for
some reason.

Yuval
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