From 98754321 at vivozap.com.br Sun Jun 22 00:54:26 2008 From: 98754321 at vivozap.com.br (98754321 at vivozap.com.br) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:54:26 -0300 Subject: [spambayes-dev] =?iso-8859-1?q?vivo_torpedo_msg_zzjklshl=E7hg?= Message-ID: <20080621225420.9A2AB103801D@smtpauth03.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> - This mail is in HTML. Some elements may be ommited in plain text. - Ol? Ol?, Voc? acaba de receber um FotoTorpedo veja -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at pobox.com Sun Jun 22 23:24:29 2008 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:24:29 -0500 Subject: [spambayes-dev] Training w/o any spam? Message-ID: <18526.49933.94271.831723@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> The most common training problem we generally encounter is too much spam in the database. Martin v. Loewis and I implemented a SpamBayes trainer for bugs.python.org which seems to be exhibiting the reverse. I'm just training now through the web interface (looks just like the SpamBayes POP3 proxy training interfac). I see about 25% unsures and the rest hams. A couple messages scored as spam, but they were mistakes. I'm only training a couple unsures out of each day as ham and discarding the rest. Still, I've got a database with essentially all hams. What might I expect in the way of accuracy? Skip From dave at boostpro.com Thu Jun 26 21:58:22 2008 From: dave at boostpro.com (David Abrahams) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:58:22 -0400 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [imapfilter] saving 1804 with new id: 1209671482 In-Reply-To: <18458.34459.256241.411850@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> References: <878wytre4z.fsf@mcbain.luannocracy.com> <18458.34459.256241.411850@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> Message-ID: <4863F4DE.6080205@boostpro.com> skip at pobox.com wrote: > Dave> Does anyone know what these messages mean? It seems like they are > Dave> repeated for the same numbers during my tte training cycle, so the > Dave> messages aren't really getting re-saved with the new ids? > > The comment in sb_imapfilter.py sort of implies the message id isn't > available as a unique id for the message, so it's generated its own id. It > would indeed appear that the generated id isn't "taking" somehow and it has > to generate a new one each time. Is that new id changing every time? (It > better be.) > > Digging a little deeper... We try to get a header matching a couple > different regular expressions. If those can't be found, a new id is > generated and it's set on the message with > > msg.setId(newid) > > The code for setId in spambayes/message.py looks a little suspect though. > It sets self.id then calls > > self.message_info_db.load_msg(self) > > I wonder if maybe it's obliterating the id that was just set? I have no clue :( Is there a place I can report this issue in which it'll get addressed? Is someone responsible for imapfilter, or...? Thanks. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From skip at pobox.com Fri Jun 27 07:07:28 2008 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 00:07:28 -0500 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [imapfilter] saving 1804 with new id: 1209671482 In-Reply-To: <4863F4DE.6080205@boostpro.com> References: <878wytre4z.fsf@mcbain.luannocracy.com> <18458.34459.256241.411850@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <4863F4DE.6080205@boostpro.com> Message-ID: <18532.30096.841797.507334@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> Dave> Is there a place I can report this issue in which it'll get Dave> addressed? Is someone responsible for imapfilter, or...? I believe Tony is the original author and still most familiar with the code. Please file a bug report on the SpamBayes tracker. You can assign it to "anadelonbrin" (Tony) if you like. Skip From dave at boostpro.com Fri Jun 27 08:22:33 2008 From: dave at boostpro.com (David Abrahams) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:22:33 -0400 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [imapfilter] saving 1804 with new id: 1209671482 In-Reply-To: <18532.30096.841797.507334@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> References: <878wytre4z.fsf@mcbain.luannocracy.com> <18458.34459.256241.411850@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <4863F4DE.6080205@boostpro.com> <18532.30096.841797.507334@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> Message-ID: <48648729.9000902@boostpro.com> skip at pobox.com wrote: > Dave> Is there a place I can report this issue in which it'll get > Dave> addressed? Is someone responsible for imapfilter, or...? > > I believe Tony is the original author and still most familiar with the code. > Please file a bug report on the SpamBayes tracker. You can assign it to > "anadelonbrin" (Tony) if you like. The stupid tracker keeps telling me I need to log in before I can submit, and yes I've logged in and cleared my browser cache :( -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From skip at pobox.com Fri Jun 27 18:50:31 2008 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:50:31 -0500 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [imapfilter] saving 1804 with new id: 1209671482 In-Reply-To: <48648729.9000902@boostpro.com> References: <878wytre4z.fsf@mcbain.luannocracy.com> <18458.34459.256241.411850@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <4863F4DE.6080205@boostpro.com> <18532.30096.841797.507334@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <48648729.9000902@boostpro.com> Message-ID: <18533.6743.877801.81773@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> Dave> The stupid tracker keeps telling me I need to log in before I can Dave> submit, and yes I've logged in and cleared my browser cache :( Hmm... Mail me what you would have submitted then and I'll try adding it. Skip From skip at pobox.com Fri Jun 27 18:53:52 2008 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:53:52 -0500 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [imapfilter] saving 1804 with new id: 1209671482 In-Reply-To: <48648729.9000902@boostpro.com> References: <878wytre4z.fsf@mcbain.luannocracy.com> <18458.34459.256241.411850@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <4863F4DE.6080205@boostpro.com> <18532.30096.841797.507334@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <48648729.9000902@boostpro.com> Message-ID: <18533.6944.78699.798167@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> Dave> The stupid tracker keeps telling me I need to log in before I can Dave> submit, and yes I've logged in and cleared my browser cache :( Skip> Hmm... Mail me what you would have submitted then and I'll try Skip> adding it. Looks like it's actually there: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=498103&aid=2004131&group_id=61702 Dunno why it wants you to login. Skip From dave at boostpro.com Fri Jun 27 19:20:05 2008 From: dave at boostpro.com (David Abrahams) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:20:05 -0400 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [imapfilter] saving 1804 with new id: 1209671482 In-Reply-To: <18533.6944.78699.798167@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> References: <878wytre4z.fsf@mcbain.luannocracy.com> <18458.34459.256241.411850@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <4863F4DE.6080205@boostpro.com> <18532.30096.841797.507334@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> <48648729.9000902@boostpro.com> <18533.6944.78699.798167@montanaro-dyndns-org.local> Message-ID: <48652145.8040701@boostpro.com> skip at pobox.com wrote: > Dave> The stupid tracker keeps telling me I need to log in before I can > Dave> submit, and yes I've logged in and cleared my browser cache :( > > Skip> Hmm... Mail me what you would have submitted then and I'll try > Skip> adding it. > > Looks like it's actually there: > > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=498103&aid=2004131&group_id=61702 > > Dunno why it wants you to login. I eventually made it work. The UI just sux, so among other things, I had overlooked the "submit new" link hiding in the clutter because my attention was drawn to the bright orange "log in to SourceForge" link, which is sort of a dead end. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com From Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com Mon Jun 30 14:52:53 2008 From: Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com (OConchubhair, Andoni) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:52:53 +0100 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT Message-ID: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2633BFB@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> The application that needs to be changed is not SpamBayes but rather the page where I fill in my email address in order to join the mailing list. On that page it has one simple sentence to let the user know that what they are going to do will disseminate information to the entire internet irretrievably. It is IMHO just not enough. "Please note that this is a public mailing list: all messages sent to this list are visible to the public, and are publicly archived." -----Original Message----- From: Amedee Van Gasse [mailto:amedee at amedee.be] Sent: 30 June 2008 13:41 To: OConchubhair, Andoni Cc: spambayes at python.org; spambayes-dev at python.org Subject: Re: [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT On Mon, June 30, 2008 14:28, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > I agree completely. The distress is self-inflicted. Just like when I close > Microsoft Word accidentally after spending a whole day typing my report > and > thereby loose an entire day's work, but I don't because it reminds my > tired > head to click 'Save'. > > Fortunately for me, software can easily be written to help with human > situations. It is one of the over-riding principals of good software > development that software should be written to suit the human condition > rather than the humans having to change the way they are to accommodate > the > software (or any machine for that matter) hence we have safety guards on > chain-saws and air-bags in cars. I'm confused about which software should be changed. Spambayes? I use the procmail filter at home and the outlook plugin at work, and neither provide a method for subscribing to the spambayes mailing list. However you do have one valid point of criticism. The Outlook package provides a link to a local html page: file:///C:/Program%20Files/SpamBayes/docs/outlook/docs/troubleshooting.html# mail There I read the following text: -----CUT----- Send a mail If all else fails, you may want to send someone a mail. Please make sure you have read this document thoroughly before doing do. Your mail should be sent to the SpamBayes mailing list (spambayes at python.org). Please do not mail any of the contributors directly! (see "good karma" below). Please ensure this mail contains: the version of Windows you are using, the version of SpamBayes, any log files. If you also mention that you read this trouble-shooting guide and are still stuck, then you will be more likely to get answered! (And if you can subscribe to this mailing list and help answer other questions, and good karma will come your way!) -----CUT----- There is no mention about the fact that the mailing list is public on the local documentation page. So I would rather agree if someone would call this a "bug" in the documentation. This should be changed as soon as possible. I'm going to subscribe to the dev-list to request this. However on the website, near every occurrence I could find of the mailing list address, it is mentioned that it is a public mailing list. So there I would respectfully disagree with you if you say that the website should be changed. (correct me if I'm wrong) -- Amedee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amedee at amedee.be Mon Jun 30 14:41:20 2008 From: amedee at amedee.be (Amedee Van Gasse) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:41:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT Message-ID: <53699.193.121.250.194.1214829680.squirrel@intrepid.warp.be> On Mon, June 30, 2008 14:28, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > I agree completely. The distress is self-inflicted. Just like when I close > Microsoft Word accidentally after spending a whole day typing my report > and > thereby loose an entire day's work, but I don't because it reminds my > tired > head to click 'Save'. > > Fortunately for me, software can easily be written to help with human > situations. It is one of the over-riding principals of good software > development that software should be written to suit the human condition > rather than the humans having to change the way they are to accommodate > the > software (or any machine for that matter) hence we have safety guards on > chain-saws and air-bags in cars. I'm confused about which software should be changed. Spambayes? I use the procmail filter at home and the outlook plugin at work, and neither provide a method for subscribing to the spambayes mailing list. However you do have one valid point of criticism. The Outlook package provides a link to a local html page: file:///C:/Program%20Files/SpamBayes/docs/outlook/docs/troubleshooting.html#mail There I read the following text: -----CUT----- Send a mail If all else fails, you may want to send someone a mail. Please make sure you have read this document thoroughly before doing do. Your mail should be sent to the SpamBayes mailing list (spambayes at python.org). Please do not mail any of the contributors directly! (see "good karma" below). Please ensure this mail contains: the version of Windows you are using, the version of SpamBayes, any log files. If you also mention that you read this trouble-shooting guide and are still stuck, then you will be more likely to get answered! (And if you can subscribe to this mailing list and help answer other questions, and good karma will come your way!) -----CUT----- There is no mention about the fact that the mailing list is public on the local documentation page. So I would rather agree if someone would call this a "bug" in the documentation. This should be changed as soon as possible. I'm going to subscribe to the dev-list to request this. However on the website, near every occurrence I could find of the mailing list address, it is mentioned that it is a public mailing list. So there I would respectfully disagree with you if you say that the website should be changed. (correct me if I'm wrong) -- Amedee From amedee at amedee.be Mon Jun 30 15:13:48 2008 From: amedee at amedee.be (Amedee Van Gasse) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:13:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2633BFB@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> References: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2633BFB@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Message-ID: <37126.193.121.250.194.1214831628.squirrel@intrepid.warp.be> On Mon, June 30, 2008 14:52, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > The application that needs to be changed is not SpamBayes but rather the > page where I fill in my email address in order to join the mailing list. Aha! Finally. A web page. A web page has a coordinate called an URL that uniquely identifies it, so that we are all talking about the same thing. Are you talking about http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/spambayes ? > On > that page it has one simple sentence to let the user know that what they > are > going to do will disseminate information to the entire internet > irretrievably. It is IMHO just not enough. > > "Please note that this is a public mailing list: all messages sent to this > list are visible to the public, and are publicly archived." What is your suggestion, that does not break internet and web standards, and that can be implemented inside the existing Mailman mailing list software version 2.1.10 that is provided to spambayes by python.org? I'm afraid that the good spambayes-devs are actually quite limited in what they can do. What you seem to suggest (a popup?) is afaict technically impossible inside the current mailman framework. (Spambayes-devs, please correct me if I'm wrong) -- Amedee From mhammond at skippinet.com.au Mon Jun 30 15:17:28 2008 From: mhammond at skippinet.com.au (Mark Hammond) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:17:28 +1000 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2633BFB@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> References: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2633BFB@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Message-ID: <032101c8dab3$ab94dc80$02be9580$@com.au> I just noticed that the "welcome" email from the list also doesn't make it clear this is a public list. I added the following text as the second paragraph of that message: NOTE: THIS IS A PUBLIC EMAIL LIST. Emails you send to this list will be available publicly and archived on google and many other sites. Once you post to this list it can not be retracted. Do not post personal information to this list. Cheers, Mark From: spambayes-dev-bounces at python.org [mailto:spambayes-dev-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of OConchubhair, Andoni Sent: Monday, 30 June 2008 10:53 PM To: 'Amedee Van Gasse' Cc: spambayes at python.org; spambayes-dev at python.org Subject: Re: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT The application that needs to be changed is not SpamBayes but rather the page where I fill in my email address in order to join the mailing list. On that page it has one simple sentence to let the user know that what they are going to do will disseminate information to the entire internet irretrievably. It is IMHO just not enough. "Please note that this is a public mailing list: all messages sent to this list are visible to the public, and are publicly archived." -----Original Message----- From: Amedee Van Gasse [mailto:amedee at amedee.be] Sent: 30 June 2008 13:41 To: OConchubhair, Andoni Cc: spambayes at python.org; spambayes-dev at python.org Subject: Re: [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT On Mon, June 30, 2008 14:28, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > I agree completely. The distress is self-inflicted. Just like when I close > Microsoft Word accidentally after spending a whole day typing my report > and > thereby loose an entire day's work, but I don't because it reminds my > tired > head to click 'Save'. > > Fortunately for me, software can easily be written to help with human > situations. It is one of the over-riding principals of good software > development that software should be written to suit the human condition > rather than the humans having to change the way they are to accommodate > the > software (or any machine for that matter) hence we have safety guards on > chain-saws and air-bags in cars. I'm confused about which software should be changed. Spambayes? I use the procmail filter at home and the outlook plugin at work, and neither provide a method for subscribing to the spambayes mailing list. However you do have one valid point of criticism. The Outlook package provides a link to a local html page: file:///C:/Program%20Files/SpamBayes/docs/outlook/docs/troubleshooting.html# mail There I read the following text: -----CUT----- Send a mail If all else fails, you may want to send someone a mail. Please make sure you have read this document thoroughly before doing do. Your mail should be sent to the SpamBayes mailing list (spambayes at python.org). Please do not mail any of the contributors directly! (see "good karma" below). Please ensure this mail contains: the version of Windows you are using, the version of SpamBayes, any log files. If you also mention that you read this trouble-shooting guide and are still stuck, then you will be more likely to get answered! (And if you can subscribe to this mailing list and help answer other questions, and good karma will come your way!) -----CUT----- There is no mention about the fact that the mailing list is public on the local documentation page. So I would rather agree if someone would call this a "bug" in the documentation. This should be changed as soon as possible. I'm going to subscribe to the dev-list to request this. However on the website, near every occurrence I could find of the mailing list address, it is mentioned that it is a public mailing list. So there I would respectfully disagree with you if you say that the website should be changed. (correct me if I'm wrong) -- Amedee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com Mon Jun 30 15:21:05 2008 From: Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com (OConchubhair, Andoni) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:21:05 +0100 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT Message-ID: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2D7D13E@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Is it impossible to implement a link on this page? It need not pop-up? Is it impossible to implement a check-box that must be ticket in order to click the "Subscribe" button? If these are impossible then that ends the discussion as far as I am concerned. Mark: I think that text will be helpful. Anything that will help a few more users to notice this situation will be good. That said, I think we all know that users often don't ready any of what is written, which is why they are often forced to click tick-boxes etc. to show they have read T&Cs. -----Original Message----- From: Amedee Van Gasse [mailto:amedee at amedee.be] Sent: 30 June 2008 14:14 To: OConchubhair, Andoni Cc: 'Amedee Van Gasse'; spambayes at python.org; spambayes-dev at python.org Subject: RE: [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT On Mon, June 30, 2008 14:52, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > The application that needs to be changed is not SpamBayes but rather the > page where I fill in my email address in order to join the mailing list. Aha! Finally. A web page. A web page has a coordinate called an URL that uniquely identifies it, so that we are all talking about the same thing. Are you talking about http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/spambayes ? > On > that page it has one simple sentence to let the user know that what they > are > going to do will disseminate information to the entire internet > irretrievably. It is IMHO just not enough. > > "Please note that this is a public mailing list: all messages sent to this > list are visible to the public, and are publicly archived." What is your suggestion, that does not break internet and web standards, and that can be implemented inside the existing Mailman mailing list software version 2.1.10 that is provided to spambayes by python.org? I'm afraid that the good spambayes-devs are actually quite limited in what they can do. What you seem to suggest (a popup?) is afaict technically impossible inside the current mailman framework. (Spambayes-devs, please correct me if I'm wrong) -- Amedee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mhammond at skippinet.com.au Mon Jun 30 15:09:04 2008 From: mhammond at skippinet.com.au (Mark Hammond) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:09:04 +1000 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2633BFB@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> References: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2633BFB@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Message-ID: <031d01c8dab2$7f5415b0$7dfc4110$@com.au> > The application that needs to be changed is not SpamBayes but > rather the page where I fill in my email address in order to > join the mailing list. On that page it has one simple sentence > to let the user know that what they are going to do will > disseminate information to the entire internet irretrievably. > It is IMHO just not enough. So let me get this straight: You posted to the spambayes mailing list, but it failed to be delivered as you weren't a member of the mailing list. It directed you to a mailing list subscription page, where the second line tells you this is a mailing list that is public to the world. However, after all of that, you still didn't know it was a mailing list? You want a checkbox on the mailing list subscription page that says, basically, "I don't know what a mailing list is, and I haven't read a single word of this page - subscribe me anyway?" Is there something I'm missing? Mark -----Original Message----- From: Amedee Van Gasse [mailto:amedee at amedee.be] Sent: 30 June 2008 13:41 To: OConchubhair, Andoni Cc: spambayes at python.org; spambayes-dev at python.org Subject: Re: [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT On Mon, June 30, 2008 14:28, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > I agree completely. The distress is self-inflicted. Just like when I close > Microsoft Word accidentally after spending a whole day typing my report > and > thereby loose an entire day's work, but I don't because it reminds my > tired > head to click 'Save'. > > Fortunately for me, software can easily be written to help with human > situations. It is one of the over-riding principals of good software > development that software should be written to suit the human condition > rather than the humans having to change the way they are to accommodate > the > software (or any machine for that matter) hence we have safety guards on > chain-saws and air-bags in cars. I'm confused about which software should be changed. Spambayes? I use the procmail filter at home and the outlook plugin at work, and neither provide a method for subscribing to the spambayes mailing list. However you do have one valid point of criticism. The Outlook package provides a link to a local html page: file:///C:/Program%20Files/SpamBayes/docs/outlook/docs/troubleshooting.html# mail There I read the following text: -----CUT----- Send a mail If all else fails, you may want to send someone a mail. Please make sure you have read this document thoroughly before doing do. Your mail should be sent to the SpamBayes mailing list (spambayes at python.org). Please do not mail any of the contributors directly! (see "good karma" below). Please ensure this mail contains: the version of Windows you are using, the version of SpamBayes, any log files. If you also mention that you read this trouble-shooting guide and are still stuck, then you will be more likely to get answered! (And if you can subscribe to this mailing list and help answer other questions, and good karma will come your way!) -----CUT----- There is no mention about the fact that the mailing list is public on the local documentation page. So I would rather agree if someone would call this a "bug" in the documentation. This should be changed as soon as possible. I'm going to subscribe to the dev-list to request this. However on the website, near every occurrence I could find of the mailing list address, it is mentioned that it is a public mailing list. So there I would respectfully disagree with you if you say that the website should be changed. (correct me if I'm wrong) -- Amedee From amedee at amedee.be Mon Jun 30 15:45:07 2008 From: amedee at amedee.be (Amedee Van Gasse) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:45:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO T HIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2D7D13D@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> References: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2D7D13D@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Message-ID: <25129.193.121.250.194.1214833507.squirrel@intrepid.warp.be> On Mon, June 30, 2008 15:16, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > Yes. > > I did not post anything that I want removed. I understand what a public > mailing list is and how it works. I am not writing about me but about the > many people who post to this list each month distressed because their > information is available to all and sundry on the web. > > You phrase it in such a way as to make the user sound like a complete > idiot > and yet the fact that so many people seem to be experiencing this > difficulty > on a regular basis shows that it does not take any exceptional > characteristics to make this simple mistake. Tough luck. Spambayes is not commercial software. It is experimental, free, open source software written by technically advanced people who know how the internet works, for their own personal use. And I as a simple person am very, very happy that they want to share their hobby project with me. I am 99% sure that the developers would abandon the spambayes project as soon as they are forced to give commercial-grade support. From amedee at amedee.be Mon Jun 30 16:05:57 2008 From: amedee at amedee.be (Amedee Van Gasse) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:05:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2D7D13E@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> References: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2D7D13E@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Message-ID: <63084.193.121.250.194.1214834757.squirrel@intrepid.warp.be> On Mon, June 30, 2008 15:21, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > Is it impossible to implement a link on this page? It need not pop-up? > > Is it impossible to implement a check-box that must be ticket in order to > click the "Subscribe" button? > > If these are impossible then that ends the discussion as far as I am > concerned. > > Mark: I think that text will be helpful. Anything that will help a few > more > users to notice this situation will be good. That said, I think we all > know > that users often don't ready any of what is written, which is why they are > often forced to click tick-boxes etc. to show they have read T&Cs. I can answer these questions because I have run the mailman mailinglist software myself on my own server. (Spambayes uses the mailman infrastructure provided by python.org, the Spambayes project does not administer or own the mailing list software) Changing Mailman, provided by python.org: forget it. Stick to plain text that can be filled in the templates provided by Mailman. When someone subscribes, they are not immediatly subscribed. They get 2 emails before they can send email to the list. EMAIL1: Mailing list subscription confirmation notice for mailing list spambayes We have received a request from IP_ADDRESS for subscription of your email address, EMAIL_ADDRESS, to the spambayes at python.org mailing list. To confirm that you want to be added to this mailing list, simply reply to this message, keeping the Subject: header intact. Or visit this web page: http://mail.python.org/mailman/confirm/spambayes/LONG_CODE Or include the following line -- and only the following line -- in a message to spambayes-request at python.org: confirm LONG_CODE Note that simply sending a `reply' to this message should work from most mail readers, since that usually leaves the Subject: line in the right form (additional "Re:" text in the Subject: is okay). If you do not wish to be subscribed to this list, please simply disregard this message. If you think you are being maliciously subscribed to the list, or have any other questions, send them to spambayes-owner at python.org. EMAIL2: Welcome to the spambayes at python.org mailing list! To post to this list, send your email to: spambayes at python.org General information about the mailing list is at: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/spambayes If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your subscription page at: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/spambayes/EMAIL_ADDRESS You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: spambayes-request at python.org with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: PASSWORD, Normally, Mailman will remind you of your python.org mailing list passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button on your options page that will email your current password to you. Mark just mailed that he modified the second mail. That's as far as you can jump inside the Mailman software. Mailman isn't a Web Two Point Oh social networking site with Ajax-enabled buzzword compliant widgets. It's mature software, meaning that it has proven its worth over the years. Don't try to fix what isn't broken. -- Amedee From Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com Mon Jun 30 12:54:55 2008 From: Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com (OConchubhair, Andoni) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:54:55 +0100 Subject: [spambayes-dev] =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT IS VERY IMPORTANT Message-ID: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2D7D137@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Hi, Mail Chain moved from Spambayes User list. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/spambayes/2008-June/021978.html Though I would usually agree with this, now that I have spent a few months on this list I find that the number of people to whom this causes serious distress is significant. The warning IS there when you sign up but I imagine that I didn't read it and I can therefore see how many others might not have either. Good software practice involves checking with users when a decision they have made is going to have a serious impact: "Do you want to save the changes before exiting: Yes/No/Cancel" being the obvious example. To that end, I suggest that someone who knows how might add a confirmation checkbox and popup window to the sentence: "Please note that this is a public mailing list: all messages sent to this list are visible to the public, and are publicly archived." The point would be that you can click on a link to pop up a box which explains the public nature of this list. There would also be a check-box which you have to check to acknowledge that you understand, before it will allow you to click the "Subscribe" button at the bottom of the page. A bit like the "Terms & Conditions" check-boxes in many corporate download sites. Thanks, Andoni OConchubhair -----Original Message----- From: spambayes-bounces at python.org [mailto:spambayes-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Amedee Van Gasse Sent: 30 June 2008 10:54 To: Carrie Deutsch Cc: spambayes at python.org Subject: Re: [Spambayes] PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT IS VERY IMPORTANT On Mon, June 30, 2008 03:53, Carrie Deutsch wrote: > Sorry about failing netiquette. > > I had no idea it was a public email I was sending. There was no indication > of that when I first sent the email, I thought I was emailing the people > concerned, and I was pretty annoyed, as I had obviously given them my > contact details not knowing they would be attached to some form that would > go public. > > I guess there is nothing I can do now, and my contact details I see got > attached to the email that I had no idea was public as it was in my > signature. > > I don't think it is good that an email address on a website should lead to > a > public list if you don't know that it will > > Thanks for your response > > Carrie I'm sorry to tell you that it is clearly stated on the website: http://spambayes.sourceforge.net/contact.html There are currently five mailing lists of interest. All lists are public, and all are publicly archived. This is normal practice for open-source projects, and you should be aware that all email sent to one of these addresses will be visible to the world _______________________________________________ SpamBayes at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/spambayes Info/Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/spambayes Check the FAQ before asking: http://spambayes.sf.net/faq.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com Mon Jun 30 15:16:59 2008 From: Andoni.OConchubhair at fmr.com (OConchubhair, Andoni) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:16:59 +0100 Subject: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO T HIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT Message-ID: <482B687A2184824D89145C74E6A540A2D7D13D@MSGGALCLA2WIN.DMN1.FMR.COM> Yes. I did not post anything that I want removed. I understand what a public mailing list is and how it works. I am not writing about me but about the many people who post to this list each month distressed because their information is available to all and sundry on the web. You phrase it in such a way as to make the user sound like a complete idiot and yet the fact that so many people seem to be experiencing this difficulty on a regular basis shows that it does not take any exceptional characteristics to make this simple mistake. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Hammond [mailto:mhammond at skippinet.com.au] Sent: 30 June 2008 14:09 To: OConchubhair, Andoni; 'Amedee Van Gasse' Cc: spambayes at python.org; spambayes-dev at python.org Subject: RE: [spambayes-dev] [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT > The application that needs to be changed is not SpamBayes but > rather the page where I fill in my email address in order to > join the mailing list. On that page it has one simple sentence > to let the user know that what they are going to do will > disseminate information to the entire internet irretrievably. > It is IMHO just not enough. So let me get this straight: You posted to the spambayes mailing list, but it failed to be delivered as you weren't a member of the mailing list. It directed you to a mailing list subscription page, where the second line tells you this is a mailing list that is public to the world. However, after all of that, you still didn't know it was a mailing list? You want a checkbox on the mailing list subscription page that says, basically, "I don't know what a mailing list is, and I haven't read a single word of this page - subscribe me anyway?" Is there something I'm missing? Mark -----Original Message----- From: Amedee Van Gasse [mailto:amedee at amedee.be] Sent: 30 June 2008 13:41 To: OConchubhair, Andoni Cc: spambayes at python.org; spambayes-dev at python.org Subject: Re: [Spambayes] FW: =Spambayes= PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL _ IT I S VERYIMPORTANT On Mon, June 30, 2008 14:28, OConchubhair, Andoni wrote: > I agree completely. The distress is self-inflicted. Just like when I close > Microsoft Word accidentally after spending a whole day typing my report > and > thereby loose an entire day's work, but I don't because it reminds my > tired > head to click 'Save'. > > Fortunately for me, software can easily be written to help with human > situations. It is one of the over-riding principals of good software > development that software should be written to suit the human condition > rather than the humans having to change the way they are to accommodate > the > software (or any machine for that matter) hence we have safety guards on > chain-saws and air-bags in cars. I'm confused about which software should be changed. Spambayes? I use the procmail filter at home and the outlook plugin at work, and neither provide a method for subscribing to the spambayes mailing list. However you do have one valid point of criticism. The Outlook package provides a link to a local html page: file:///C:/Program%20Files/SpamBayes/docs/outlook/docs/troubleshooting.html# mail There I read the following text: -----CUT----- Send a mail If all else fails, you may want to send someone a mail. Please make sure you have read this document thoroughly before doing do. Your mail should be sent to the SpamBayes mailing list (spambayes at python.org). Please do not mail any of the contributors directly! (see "good karma" below). Please ensure this mail contains: the version of Windows you are using, the version of SpamBayes, any log files. If you also mention that you read this trouble-shooting guide and are still stuck, then you will be more likely to get answered! (And if you can subscribe to this mailing list and help answer other questions, and good karma will come your way!) -----CUT----- There is no mention about the fact that the mailing list is public on the local documentation page. So I would rather agree if someone would call this a "bug" in the documentation. This should be changed as soon as possible. I'm going to subscribe to the dev-list to request this. However on the website, near every occurrence I could find of the mailing list address, it is mentioned that it is a public mailing list. So there I would respectfully disagree with you if you say that the website should be changed. (correct me if I'm wrong) -- Amedee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: