[Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build

[Christopher Barker]

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 4:33 PM Jack Jansen <jack.jansen at cwi.nl> wrote:

> it still isn't clear to me _why_ you wouldn’t want to use a framework
> build…
>

on a personal level, it's because the conda folks really want to use a
plain vanilla unix build -- and I want things to work with conda.

As to why conda wants to do that, my thoughts:

conda manages not just Python, but also a full set of other libraries, and
even other languages (R, Julia, Java).

In that way, it's a bit like homebrew or macports.

However, It also tries to be as platform-neutral as possible, so anything
that works one way on conda works that same way on all platforms.

And in practice, it solves a LOT of problems, problems that were a pain in
the neck for years on the Mac.

Also in practice, treating OS-X as "just another unix" works quite well in
almost all ways -- there are a few addicted here than there, though those
are mostly about clang than OS-X per se. But most things "just work".


> The whole exercise feels a bit like discussions from 15 years ago, with
> Unix wizards who wanted MacOS to behave as if it was plain vanilla Unix
> without all the things Apple changed. And that is much less true today than
> it was then…
>

Another practical consideration is that the vast majority of Python
developers that use Macs use them like a Unix system: data analysis, web
development, etc, etc. It's only desktop GUI software that poses any
issues, and this is the only issue (that I know of) for that.

There was an experiment with using a Framework build in conda a while back
-- it immediately ran into the issue that it would be incompatible with all
existing conda-python packages, so that's not good. It could be that that
could be addressed with appropriate symlinks, but not one did a thorough
testing.

Another issue is that conda now supports platform-independent Python
packages -- and that would get a lot harder with a Framework build. (though
again, maybe a full set of links could solve that)

It's also the case that using a Framework build inside conda buys us
absolutely nothing -- it just makes things gratuitously different from the
other *nix systems for no gain. I appreciate the idea of frameworks, but a)
I don't think Frameworks were really designed for things like python
anyway, and b) conda is solving all the problems that Frameworks solve but
-- in a different, and platform independent way.

In short: building python as a framework in conda would create an
incompatibility with no gain. The only reason to do it would be to get the
"pythonw" executable, and that doesn't actually require a Framework --
"just" some new build scripts.

Anyway, if the folks that want this do the work, it looks like it can
happen, and if not, then I guess we won't get it.

Fair enough.

-Chris


On  18-Jan-2021, at 18:38 , Christopher Barker <pythonchb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 1:34 AM Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren at mac.com>
> wrote:
>
>> As mentioned on python-dev adding the “pythonw” functionality to the unix
>> build is not very hard. I expect that integrating with the build system
>> (Makefile/configure script) will be the hardest part due to introducing
>> different behaviour for the macOS platform.
>>
>
> Thanks Ronald, that confirms my suspicions that this is really an autoconf
> issue. Which makes it an utter mystery to me :-(
>
>> And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that
>> the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework.
>>
>> The framework build does not have a workaround for these problems, it has
>> a proper solution ;-).
>>
>
> Glad to hear that -- in earlier conversations, I got the impression that
> you thought the executable wrapper was kind of a hack :-).
>
> Anyway -- if any of you have autoconf expertise and the inclination, I'd
> love to see this get done, and would be glad to help as best I can.
>
> -CHB
>
> --
> Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
>
> Python Language Consulting
>   - Teaching
>   - Scientific Software Development
>   - Desktop GUI and Web Development
>   - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
>
>
> --
>
> Jack Jansen, <Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl>, http://www.cwi.nl/~jack
>
> If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman
>
>
>
>

-- 
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
  - Teaching
  - Scientific Software Development
  - Desktop GUI and Web Development
  - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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