[Pythonedu-wg] Pythonedu-wg Digest, Vol 3, Issue 7

Tue Sep 22 23:09:36 CEST 2015

HI!

Great discussion. The already tab-enabled IDE I'd suggest is Geany (
http://www.geany.org/Main/HomePage), which is free and lightweight enough
to work fine on the Pi. In fact I was introduced to it by the folks working
on Pi3D, a package that lets you do 3D graphics on the Pi in Python.

Peter Farrell
My book: *Hacking Math Class With Python*
farrellpolymath.com

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 12:50 PM, <pythonedu-wg-request at python.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: A new, kid-friendly Python editor - help page (Florian Bruhin)
>    2. Re: A new, kid-friendly Python editor - help page (Danilo Bargen)
>    3. Re: A new, kid-friendly Python editor (Dave Ames)
>    4. Re: A new, kid-friendly Python editor (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:18:41 +0200
> From: Florian Bruhin <me at the-compiler.org>
> To: pythonedu-wg at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Pythonedu-wg] A new, kid-friendly Python editor - help
>         page
> Message-ID: <20150922111841.GB30194 at tonks>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> * Ash Guy <ash at ashguy.com> [2015-09-22 21:07:08 +1000]:
> > - I?ve never got the idea of this ?Spaces are better, as long as they
> behave like tabs? concept. While this is not the place for a deep and
> meaningful argument around whats better in the wild, I?d suggest this one
> be solved scientifically. What is going to be easier for the user when just
> starting out (in light of the above)? Does someone impartial want to run
> this discussion as a subproject??
>
> I think that's pretty easy to answer - almost all tutorials,
> resources, libaries, etc. use 4 spaces, as per PEP 8. Using something
> other than that will just introduce pain when copy-pasting code from
> somewhere else.
>
> Notepad++ used to default to inserting a tab when pressing the tab key
> even when writing Python, and I think they changed it to four spaces
> because of exactly that reason.
>
> > - It would probably be super powerful to come up with some kind of slick
> visual representation for objects and variables that?could ?show the
> application growing and changing during its run? maybe even an interactive
> ?app diagram? (can you imagine little blocks popping into life as you step
> through your application creating variables etc!). I for one know I
> represent my collections of objects visually in my head. Could be a great
> tool for visual learners.
>
> http://www.pythontutor.com/visualize.html comes to mind.
>
> > - Can this?just use Python 3 and be done with it? Backwards
> compatibility is for sissys (and in all seriousness probably doesn?t solve
> any of the problems the tool is trying to solve).
>
> +1
>
> Florian
>
> --
> http://www.the-compiler.org | me at the-compiler.org (Mail/XMPP)
>    GPG: 916E B0C8 FD55 A072 | http://the-compiler.org/pubkey.asc
>          I love long mails! | http://email.is-not-s.ms/
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 06:25:04 -0500
> From: Danilo Bargen <mail at dbrgn.ch>
> To: pythonedu-wg at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Pythonedu-wg] A new, kid-friendly Python editor - help
>         page
> Message-ID:
>         <1442921104.2709970.390333025.50FA31A0 at webmail.messagingengine.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Am Di, 22. Sep 2015, um 06:18, schrieb Florian Bruhin:
> > * Ash Guy <ash at ashguy.com> [2015-09-22 21:07:08 +1000]:
> > > - I?ve never got the idea of this ?Spaces are better, as long as they
> behave like tabs? concept. While this is not the place for a deep and
> meaningful argument around whats better in the wild, I?d suggest this one
> be solved scientifically. What is going to be easier for the user when just
> starting out (in light of the above)? Does someone impartial want to run
> this discussion as a subproject??
> >
> > I think that's pretty easy to answer - almost all tutorials,
> > resources, libaries, etc. use 4 spaces, as per PEP 8. Using something
> > other than that will just introduce pain when copy-pasting code from
> > somewhere else.
>
> I think this is even easier to answer - many kids don't actually know
> what the tab key does.
>
> Cheers
> Danilo
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:46:16 +0000
> From: Dave Ames <david.john.ames at gmail.com>
> To: Russel Winder <russel at winder.org.uk>, pythonedu-wg at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Pythonedu-wg] A new, kid-friendly Python editor
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CANqypVpEDpJguhGbNfrVPtjfGN5m5ByC-E-cZHmgG2mFM_eaYA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 09:13 Russel Winder <russel at winder.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Carrie Anne,
>
> Some comments derived from Python workshops for adults, which is
> clearly not the 8?16 age group, but I suspect these may be general, or
> maybe not.
>
> On Mon, 2015-09-21 at 14:15 +0100, Carrie Anne Philbin wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > I would like to initiate work on building an education friendly
> > python
> > editor to potentially replace IDLE and be part of an education bundle
> > available across multiple platforms (including relatively low-specced
> > systems such as the Raspberry Pi) through this work group.
>
> Is there to be a document somewhere collecting together people's likes
> and dislikes of IDLE? Just having email is very "event sourcing"  I do
> not like IDLE myself, but I find many people using it simply because it
> is there.
>
> I do tend to try and get people to download and install Wing IDE 101 if
> at all possible. The Qt base for Wing IDE 101 makes it a far better
> looking thing than the Tk based IDLE. The two have the same editor/REPL
> set up, but Wing IDE 101 has a green "run the current editor", which
> his amazingly useful compared to the IDLE F5 mechanism.
>
> I still find many people confusing REPL and command line. I avoid te
> use of the term "shell" beacause although everyone from
> Bash/Zsh/Sh/cmd.exe land know what a shell is, the Python distribution
> insists on calling the REPL a Python Shell, which really causes chaos.
>
> One huge difficulty with IDLE/Wing IDE 101/PyCharm/Eclipse+PyDev/? is
> that doing command line things is hard. So for a single environment I
> need editor+REPL+shell.
>
> Do we know what is different about a mini-IDE for younger folk, from a
> mini-IDE for older folk? Is there such a difference?
>
> >
> > To kick off, here?s a list of possible requirements. Please feel free
> > to
> > comment and add to them:
> >
> >
> > *Absolutely must have*:
> >
> > - Both windows open within one application (the shell window and text
> > editor window).
>
> What is meant by shell? Does this mean REPL or command line?
>
> > - Simple buttons to run code
>
> Definitely. Wing IDE 101 vs IDLE shows this is a "must".
>
> > - A way to change font sizes easily
>
> I find this crucial for presenting, is it needed for using? PyCharm and
> Emacs have Control+mouse wheel which works well. Eclipse doesn't
> support this so I do not use it.
>
> > - Syntax highlighting
>
> Yes and no. I agree syntax highlighting can be helpful, but as soon as
> you get into ability to change styling you can end up with some
> grotesque and indeed hideous rendering. Some people are even advocating
> a return to monochrome. I generally try and get a mellow look to avoid
> stark contrasts.
>
> >
> > *Highly desired*:
> >
> > - Error reporting that highlights lines and gives a good level of
> > feedback
> > to the user.
>
> This is going to require Python stack analysis, creating an API for
> editor manipulation and integrating with syntax highlighting. Emacs
> (and I guess VIM) as well as PyCharm, etc. already do this sort of
> thing.
>
> Should the new system be build on a strip down Emacs as a base?
>
> > - REPL
>
> You said shell above so does this mean you really mean a command line
> shell above? I think all three are a "must".
>
> > - Projects
> >
> > Since my talk around the development of a new text editor at Euro
> > Python
> > <https://youtu.be/_gU7sfTrz4c> in July and Pycon Australia in August,
> > community members Ntoll (Nicholas Tollervey), Lord Mauve (Daniel
> > Pope), and
> > others have begun work on an open source project called Puppy
> > <https://github.com/lordmauve/puppy>. Here is a video
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXfzfZzq1dc> of Puppy but I believe
> > that
> > more has been added and/or removed since it was filmed. I think this
> > project could be what we are looking for and we would welcome the
> > thoughts
> > of the wg.
>
> I will take a look at this?
>
> --
> Russel.
>
> =============================================================================
> Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
> sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
> 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel at winder.org.uk
> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>
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>
> Hi
>
> When Dan Pope was showing me the mock up of Puppy on Friday, by the shell I
> took him to mean a REPL.
>
> I would suspect that (rightly or wrongly) most school network technicians
> would be extremely wary of giving students access to a system shell of any
> kind.
>
> This is also the reason I've asked Dan to provide a means to run PGZero
> without accessing the command line.
>
> Cheers
> Dave
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:50:18 +0100
> From: "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org>
> To: pythonedu-wg at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Pythonedu-wg] A new, kid-friendly Python editor
> Message-ID: <5601B0FA.4070601 at ntoll.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> On 22/09/15 17:46, Dave Ames wrote:
> > I would suspect that (rightly or wrongly) most school network
> > technicians would be extremely wary of giving students access to a
> > system shell of any kind.
> >
>
> Then most school network technicians are fools and should not have ANY
> input in such decisions.
>
> NOTE: I'm highly biased about this. ;-)
>
> N.
>
>
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