From florian.berbar at urssaf.fr Fri Dec 2 11:10:04 2016 From: florian.berbar at urssaf.fr (Florian BERBAR) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 17:10:04 +0100 Subject: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package Message-ID: Good evening everyone, I try to post a file (100MB) on a Web form with python3 and the 'requests' package. This is my implementation : --------------------------------------BOF------------------------------------------------- #!/usr/local/bin/python3 -u import requests email="user at srv.fr" try: res = requests.post('http://server/Upload/upload.php', files={'aFile': open('/tmp/test.zip','rb')}, data={'email': email, 'submitFile': 'Envoyer le fichier'}) except requests.exceptions.Timeout: print('timeout') print(res.content) --------------------------------------EOF------------------------------------------------- This code semas to be correct, but it return a ConnectionResetError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer The same upload with curl work perfectly with this command : curl --form aFile=@"/tmp/test.zip" --form email="user at srv.fr" --form submitFile="Envoyer le fichier" http://server/Upload/upload.php Thanks to the advance Florian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alistair.broomhead at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 11:15:32 2016 From: alistair.broomhead at gmail.com (Alistair Broomhead) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 16:15:32 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Florian, This is probably not the best forum for Q&A, but I think you might need to look at http://docs.python-requests.org/en/master/user/advanced/#chunk-encoded-requests Al On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 at 16:11 Florian BERBAR wrote: > Good evening everyone, > > I try to post a file (100MB) on a Web form with python3 and the 'requests' > package. > > This is my implementation : > > > --------------------------------------BOF------------------------------------------------- > > #!/usr/local/bin/python3 -u > > import requests > > email="user at srv.fr" > > try: > res = requests.post('http://server/Upload/upload.php', > files={'aFile': open('/tmp/test.zip','rb')}, > data={'email': email, 'submitFile': 'Envoyer le > fichier'}) > > except requests.exceptions.Timeout: > print('timeout') > > print(res.content) > > > --------------------------------------EOF------------------------------------------------- > > This code semas to be correct, but it return a *ConnectionResetError: > [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer* > > The same upload with curl work perfectly with this command : > > curl --form aFile=@"/tmp/test.zip" --form email="user at srv.fr" --form > submitFile="Envoyer le fichier" http://server/Upload/upload.php > > Thanks to the advance > > Florian_______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ed.hartley at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 12:16:43 2016 From: ed.hartley at gmail.com (Edward Hartley) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 17:16:43 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C9A6CCA-3D0B-40C1-B48E-4BB2E1392709@gmail.com> Prolly a server side limit. > On 2 Dec 2016, at 16:15, Alistair Broomhead wrote: > > Hi Florian, > > This is probably not the best forum for Q&A, but I think you might need to look at http://docs.python-requests.org/en/master/user/advanced/#chunk-encoded-requests > > Al > >> On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 at 16:11 Florian BERBAR wrote: >> Good evening everyone, >> >> I try to post a file (100MB) on a Web form with python3 and the 'requests' package. >> >> This is my implementation : >> >> --------------------------------------BOF------------------------------------------------- >> >> #!/usr/local/bin/python3 -u >> >> import requests >> >> email="user at srv.fr" >> >> try: >> res = requests.post('http://server/Upload/upload.php', >> files={'aFile': open('/tmp/test.zip','rb')}, >> data={'email': email, 'submitFile': 'Envoyer le fichier'}) >> >> except requests.exceptions.Timeout: >> print('timeout') >> >> print(res.content) >> >> --------------------------------------EOF------------------------------------------------- >> >> This code semas to be correct, but it return a ConnectionResetError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer >> >> The same upload with curl work perfectly with this command : >> >> curl --form aFile=@"/tmp/test.zip" --form email="user at srv.fr" --form submitFile="Envoyer le fichier" http://server/Upload/upload.php >> >> Thanks to the advance >> >> Florian_______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alistair.broomhead at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 12:21:33 2016 From: alistair.broomhead at gmail.com (Alistair Broomhead) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 17:21:33 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package In-Reply-To: <7C9A6CCA-3D0B-40C1-B48E-4BB2E1392709@gmail.com> References: <7C9A6CCA-3D0B-40C1-B48E-4BB2E1392709@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure that really explain why curl could do it On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 at 17:19 Edward Hartley wrote: > Prolly a server side limit. > > On 2 Dec 2016, at 16:15, Alistair Broomhead > wrote: > > Hi Florian, > > This is probably not the best forum for Q&A, but I think you might need to > look at > http://docs.python-requests.org/en/master/user/advanced/#chunk-encoded-requests > > Al > > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 at 16:11 Florian BERBAR > wrote: > > Good evening everyone, > > I try to post a file (100MB) on a Web form with python3 and the 'requests' > package. > > This is my implementation : > > > --------------------------------------BOF------------------------------------------------- > > #!/usr/local/bin/python3 -u > > import requests > > email="user at srv.fr" > > try: > res = requests.post('http://server/Upload/upload.php', > files={'aFile': open('/tmp/test.zip','rb')}, > data={'email': email, 'submitFile': 'Envoyer le > fichier'}) > > except requests.exceptions.Timeout: > print('timeout') > > print(res.content) > > > --------------------------------------EOF------------------------------------------------- > > This code semas to be correct, but it return a *ConnectionResetError: > [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer* > > The same upload with curl work perfectly with this command : > > curl --form aFile=@"/tmp/test.zip" --form email="user at srv.fr" --form > submitFile="Envoyer le fichier" http://server/Upload/upload.php > > Thanks to the advance > > Florian_______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at whywouldwe.com Fri Dec 2 12:37:25 2016 From: info at whywouldwe.com (Peter Flood) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 17:37:25 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <093cae5a-14dc-0006-43ad-d5bd8dd1f7f5@whywouldwe.com> Are you uploading to S3? 100 Continue is pretty obscure, it's sent by the server _before_ the client has sent the body, lots of clients don't expect that and handle it badly. See https://github.com/boto/boto/issues/2207 On 02/12/2016 16:10, Florian BERBAR wrote: > Good evening everyone, > > I try to post a file (100MB) on a Web form with python3 and the > 'requests' package. > > This is my implementation : > > --------------------------------------BOF------------------------------------------------- > > > #!/usr/local/bin/python3 -u > > importrequests > > email="user at srv.fr" > > try: > res = requests.post('http://server/Upload/upload.php', > files={'aFile': open('/tmp/test.zip','rb')}, > data={'email': email, 'submitFile': 'Envoyer le fichier'}) > > exceptrequests.exceptions.Timeout: > print('timeout') > > print(res.content) > > --------------------------------------EOF------------------------------------------------- > > This code semas to be correct, but it return a *ConnectionResetError: > [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer* > > The same upload with curl work perfectly with this command : > > curl --form aFile=@"/tmp/test.zip"--form email="user at srv.fr"--form > submitFile="Envoyer le fichier"http://server/Upload/upload.php > > Thanks to the advance > > Florian > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lukasaoz at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 13:55:19 2016 From: lukasaoz at gmail.com (Cory Benfield (Lukasa)) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 18:55:19 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package In-Reply-To: <093cae5a-14dc-0006-43ad-d5bd8dd1f7f5@whywouldwe.com> References: <093cae5a-14dc-0006-43ad-d5bd8dd1f7f5@whywouldwe.com> Message-ID: <5A9C287E-0C2A-4C3C-AC33-FBD4365B7787@gmail.com> I don?t think 100-Continue will be the issue here: Requests just ignores it. What?s likely happening here is that the remote server is sending a 400 Client Error, but Requests doesn?t see it because it?s busy uploading the data and eventually the server gets mad and kills the connection to stop more data arriving. This is a known problem with Requests that comes out of httplib, and we?re actively working to fix it (by killing httplib). The only major difference between what Requests sends here and what curl sends is that curl is adding a Content-Type header to the file that Requests is not. Otherwise the differences are entirely in headers that should be irrelevant. You can try changing your code to use `files = {?aFile?: (?test.zip?, open(?/tmp/test.zip?, ?rb?), ?application/octet-stream?)}` (or whatever you judge the correct content-type of a zip file to be). Cory > On 2 Dec 2016, at 17:37, Peter Flood wrote: > > Are you uploading to S3? 100 Continue is pretty obscure, it's sent by the server _before_ the client has sent the body, lots of clients don't expect that and handle it badly. Seehttps://github.com/boto/boto/issues/2207 > On 02/12/2016 16:10, Florian BERBAR wrote: >> Good evening everyone, >> >> I try to post a file (100MB) on a Web form with python3 and the 'requests' package. >> >> This is my implementation : >> >> --------------------------------------BOF------------------------------------------------- >> >> #!/usr/local/bin/python3 -u >> >> import requests >> >> email="user at srv.fr" >> >> try: >> res = requests.post('http://server/Upload/upload.php ', >> files={'aFile': open('/tmp/test.zip','rb')}, >> data={'email': email, 'submitFile': 'Envoyer le fichier'}) >> >> except requests.exceptions.Timeout: >> print('timeout') >> >> print(res.content) >> >> --------------------------------------EOF------------------------------------------------- >> >> This code semas to be correct, but it return a ConnectionResetError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer >> >> The same upload with curl work perfectly with this command : >> >> curl --form aFile=@"/tmp/test.zip" --form email="user at srv.fr" --form submitFile="Envoyer le fichier" http://server/Upload/upload.php >> >> Thanks to the advance >> >> Florian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From florian.berbar at urssaf.fr Mon Dec 5 03:25:13 2016 From: florian.berbar at urssaf.fr (Florian BERBAR) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:25:13 +0100 Subject: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package In-Reply-To: <093cae5a-14dc-0006-43ad-d5bd8dd1f7f5@whywouldwe.com> References: <093cae5a-14dc-0006-43ad-d5bd8dd1f7f5@whywouldwe.com> Message-ID: No i'm not uploading to S3. I upload to a common PHP script. But after i analyse a network traffic dump of upload process with Curl, it seams that Curl implement "100 Continue" on my upload, I can read the HTTP header "Expect : 100-continue" on the POST request. I continue my investigation. I will try the chunk implementation as "Alistair Broomhead" suggest. Thank you Florian De : Peter Flood A : python-uk at python.org, Date : 02/12/2016 18:38 Objet : Re: [python-uk] File upload with 'requests' package Envoy? par : "python-uk" Are you uploading to S3? 100 Continue is pretty obscure, it's sent by the server _before_ the client has sent the body, lots of clients don't expect that and handle it badly. See https://github.com/boto/boto/issues/2207 On 02/12/2016 16:10, Florian BERBAR wrote: Good evening everyone, I try to post a file (100MB) on a Web form with python3 and the 'requests' package. This is my implementation : --------------------------------------BOF------------------------------------------------- #!/usr/local/bin/python3 -u import requests email="user at srv.fr" try: res = requests.post('http://server/Upload/upload.php', files={'aFile': open('/tmp/test.zip','rb')}, data={'email': email, 'submitFile': 'Envoyer le fichier'}) except requests.exceptions.Timeout: print('timeout') print(res.content) --------------------------------------EOF------------------------------------------------- This code semas to be correct, but it return a ConnectionResetError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer The same upload with curl work perfectly with this command : curl --form aFile=@"/tmp/test.zip" --form email="user at srv.fr" --form submitFile="Envoyer le fichier" http://server/Upload/upload.php Thanks to the advance Florian _______________________________________________ python-uk mailing list python-uk at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk _______________________________________________ python-uk mailing list python-uk at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk Tue Dec 6 05:20:16 2016 From: sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk (Sophie Hendley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 10:20:16 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to_?= =?utf-8?b?wqM5NWs=?= Message-ID: Hey all, I wanted to see if anyone on this list would be interested in chatting to me about either of the following. *Principle engineer/ Future CTO to highly anticipated insurance start-up * Techstack: Python Django Javascript React.js *Principle engineer /Second in command to the CTO at a highly successful SAAS start-up. * Techstack: Python AWS SQL API's Postgre Get in touch if you are interested. -- Sophie Hendley| Principal Consultant| Digital Vision *M:* 07505145903 *E: *sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk *W:* www.digvis.co.uk Sponsor me please!!!!- https://www.justgiving.com/sophiehendley/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dfh at forestfield.co.uk Tue Dec 6 06:02:43 2016 From: dfh at forestfield.co.uk (David Hughes) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:02:43 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> On 06/12/2016 10:20, Sophie Hendley wrote: > Hey all, > > I wanted to see if anyone on this list would be interested in chatting > to me about either of the following. > *_ > _* > *_Principle engineer/ Future CTO to highly anticipated insurance > start-up _* > > ... > > > *_Principle engineer /Second in command to the CTO at a highly > successful SAAS start-up. _* > > ... > > > Get in touch if you are interested. > Yes, in principal, I would be interested ;-) -- Regards David Hughes Forestfield Software -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alistair.broomhead at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 06:21:25 2016 From: alistair.broomhead at gmail.com (Alistair Broomhead) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 11:21:25 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> Message-ID: As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply to the list ;) On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 11:09 David Hughes wrote: > On 06/12/2016 10:20, Sophie Hendley wrote: > > Hey all, > > I wanted to see if anyone on this list would be interested in chatting to > me about either of the following. > > *Principle engineer/ Future CTO to highly anticipated insurance start-up * > > ... > > > > *Principle engineer /Second in command to the CTO at a highly successful > SAAS start-up. * > > ... > > > > Get in touch if you are interested. > > > Yes, in principal, I would be interested ;-) > > -- > Regards > > David Hughes > Forestfield Software > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard at arbee-design.co.uk Tue Dec 6 06:47:40 2016 From: richard at arbee-design.co.uk (Richard Barran) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:47:40 +0100 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <446F69E2-54F4-4539-9AAF-34EC97E9D0DA@arbee-design.co.uk> Did I just hear a ?whoosh!? ? > On 6 Dec 2016, at 12:21, Alistair Broomhead wrote: > > As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply to the list ;) > > On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 11:09 David Hughes > wrote: > On 06/12/2016 10:20, Sophie Hendley wrote: >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to see if anyone on this list would be interested in chatting to me about either of the following. >> > >> Principle engineer/ Future CTO to highly anticipated insurance start-up >> > >> ... > >> >> >> Principle engineer /Second in command to the CTO at a highly successful SAAS start-up. >> > >> ... > >> >> >> Get in touch if you are interested. >> > > > Yes, in principal, I would be interested ;-) > > -- > Regards > > David Hughes > Forestfield Software > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthew at unsolvable.org Tue Dec 6 06:53:19 2016 From: matthew at unsolvable.org (Matthew Webber) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:53:19 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> Message-ID: > > As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply to the > list ;) > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up "principle" and "principal". Share and enjoy. Matthew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ntoll at ntoll.org Tue Dec 6 07:01:53 2016 From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:01:53 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 06/12/16 11:53, Matthew Webber wrote: > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up > "principle" and "principal". How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having principles is important y'know... ;-) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From andy at reportlab.com Tue Dec 6 07:31:45 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:31:45 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6 December 2016 at 12:01, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having > principles is important y'know... ;-) Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a bit worrying. - Andy From ntoll at ntoll.org Tue Dec 6 07:35:18 2016 From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:35:18 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > bit worrying. Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to politicians. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Tue Dec 6 07:58:16 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:58:16 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > > bit worrying. > > Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of > professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to > politicians. What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andy at reportlab.com Tue Dec 6 08:02:33 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:02:33 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> Message-ID: On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden wrote: > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? Newton's "Principia", I would imagine From me at adamj.eu Tue Dec 6 08:10:25 2016 From: me at adamj.eu (Adam Johnson) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:10:25 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> Message-ID: Participating in this grammatical buffoonery is against my... values. On 6 December 2016 at 13:02, Andy Robinson wrote: > On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden wrote: > > > > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > Newton's "Principia", I would imagine > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -- Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgammans at gammascience.co.uk Tue Dec 6 08:20:01 2016 From: rgammans at gammascience.co.uk (Roger Gammans) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 13:20:01 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> Message-ID: <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not have simple values. On Tue, 2016-12-06 at 13:10 +0000, Adam Johnson wrote: > Participating in this grammatical buffoonery is against my... values. > > On 6 December 2016 at 13:02, Andy Robinson > wrote: > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this > > principality? > > > > Newton's "Principia", I would imagine > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > > > --? > Adam > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk From ntoll at ntoll.org Tue Dec 6 08:57:00 2016 From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:57:00 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> Message-ID: <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not > have simple values. Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of misspelled principles. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk Tue Dec 6 09:14:49 2016 From: sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk (Sophie Hendley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:14:49 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for this guys, I am Dyslexic and occasionally I make mistakes. Also my name is Sophie not "recruiter". If anyone is interested in the Principal engineer roles then do get in touch. my email is sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:10 PM, wrote: > Send python-uk mailing list submissions to > python-uk at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > python-uk-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > python-uk-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of python-uk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Matthew Webber) > 2. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Nicholas H.Tollervey) > 3. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Andy Robinson) > 4. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Nicholas H.Tollervey) > 5. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Steve Holden) > 6. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Andy Robinson) > 7. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Adam Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:53:19 +0000 > From: Matthew Webber > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply to the > > list ;) > > > > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up "principle" > and "principal". > > Share and enjoy. > Matthew > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161206/e8f90535/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:01:53 +0000 > From: "Nicholas H.Tollervey" > To: python-uk at python.org > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > On 06/12/16 11:53, Matthew Webber wrote: > > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up > > "principle" and "principal". > > How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having > principles is important y'know... ;-) > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 455 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: attachments/20161206/5c06c2b1/attachment-0001.sig> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:31:45 +0000 > From: Andy Robinson > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > G_kAUHA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:01, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > > How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having > > principles is important y'know... ;-) > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > bit worrying. > > - Andy > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:35:18 +0000 > From: "Nicholas H.Tollervey" > To: python-uk at python.org > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518 at ntoll.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > > bit worrying. > > Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of > professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to > politicians. > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 455 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: attachments/20161206/75e406f9/attachment-0001.sig> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:58:16 +0000 > From: Steve Holden > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > vcgrAOELJzu5Pg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey > wrote: > > > On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > > > bit worrying. > > > > Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of > > professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to > > politicians. > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > Steve Holden > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161206/aff37232/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:02:33 +0000 > From: Andy Robinson > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden wrote: > > > > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > Newton's "Principia", I would imagine > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:10:25 +0000 > From: Adam Johnson > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > Qt1Sy0gCr4A at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Participating in this grammatical buffoonery is against my... values. > > On 6 December 2016 at 13:02, Andy Robinson wrote: > > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden wrote: > > > > > > > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > > > Newton's "Principia", I would imagine > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > > > -- > Adam > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161206/4d939699/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > ------------------------------ > > End of python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 > ***************************************** > -- Sophie Hendley| Principal Consultant| Digital Vision *M:* 07505145903 *E: *sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk *W:* www.digvis.co.uk Sponsor me please!!!!- https://www.justgiving.com/sophiehendley/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ntoll at ntoll.org Tue Dec 6 09:25:36 2016 From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:25:36 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25f2ec72-ec79-6f47-569d-f8b4aa2b9787@ntoll.org> Sophie, I can only but apologise for any offence this exchange may have caused. :-( The Python community can do better than this. Sorry. N. On 06/12/16 14:14, Sophie Hendley wrote: > Thanks for this guys, I am Dyslexic and occasionally I make mistakes. > > Also my name is Sophie not "recruiter". > > If anyone is interested in the Principal engineer roles then do get in > touch. > > my email is sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:10 PM, > wrote: > > Send python-uk mailing list submissions to > python-uk at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > python-uk-request at python.org > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > python-uk-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of python-uk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Matthew Webber) > 2. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Nicholas H.Tollervey) > 3. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Andy Robinson) > 4. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Nicholas H.Tollervey) > 5. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Steve Holden) > 6. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Andy Robinson) > 7. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Adam Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:53:19 +0000 > From: Matthew Webber > > To: UK Python Users > > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply > to the > > list ;) > > > > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up > "principle" > and "principal". > > Share and enjoy. > Matthew > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:01:53 +0000 > From: "Nicholas H.Tollervey" > > To: python-uk at python.org > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > On 06/12/16 11:53, Matthew Webber wrote: > > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up > > "principle" and "principal". > > How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having > principles is important y'know... ;-) > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 455 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:31:45 +0000 > From: Andy Robinson > > To: UK Python Users > > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:01, Nicholas H.Tollervey > wrote: > > How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having > > principles is important y'know... ;-) > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > bit worrying. > > - Andy > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:35:18 +0000 > From: "Nicholas H.Tollervey" > > To: python-uk at python.org > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518 at ntoll.org > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > > bit worrying. > > Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of > professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to > politicians. > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 455 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:58:16 +0000 > From: Steve Holden > > To: UK Python Users > > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey > > > wrote: > > > On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, > it's a > > > bit worrying. > > > > Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of > > professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to > > politicians. > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > Steve Holden > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:02:33 +0000 > From: Andy Robinson > > To: UK Python Users > > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden > wrote: > > > > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > Newton's "Principia", I would imagine > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:10:25 +0000 > From: Adam Johnson > > To: UK Python Users > > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Participating in this grammatical buffoonery is against my... values. > > On 6 December 2016 at 13:02, Andy Robinson > wrote: > > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden > wrote: > > > > > > > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > > > Newton's "Principia", I would imagine > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > > > > -- > Adam > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 > ***************************************** > > > > > -- > > > Sophie Hendley| Principal Consultant| Digital Vision > > *M:* 07505145903 > > *E: *sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk > > *W:* www.digvis.co.uk > > Sponsor me please!!!!- https://www.justgiving.com/sophiehendley/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Tue Dec 6 09:33:02 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:33:02 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Sophie Hendley wrote: > Thanks for this guys, I am Dyslexic and occasionally I make mistakes. > > Also my name is Sophie not "recruiter". > > If anyone is interested in the Principal engineer roles then do get in > touch. > > my email is sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk > I hope you don't feel too offended by our fun. I'm a bit dyslexic myself, so I'm used to people assuming I'm a bit dim. Good luck in the Shine Night Walk! regards Steve Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dw+python-uk at hmmz.org Tue Dec 6 09:41:44 2016 From: dw+python-uk at hmmz.org (David Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:41:44 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> Message-ID: <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad taste. I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly confuse license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch more, either through finger memory or plain old thinko. It would not be without embarrassment to have strangers publicly ridicule such errors, especially in a professional context as occurred here. This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the underlying insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of Conduct, therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect on it. David On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:57:00PM +0000, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: > > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not > > have simple values. > > Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of > misspelled principles. > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk From steve at holdenweb.com Tue Dec 6 09:58:42 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:58:42 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:41 PM, David Wilson wrote: > This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the underlying > insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of Conduct, > therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect on it. > +1 A little innocent fun is OK, but when it runs the risk of being hurtful it's probably gone far enough. It would be horrible if the Python community got a name for being snide. S Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthew at unsolvable.org Tue Dec 6 10:12:03 2016 From: matthew at unsolvable.org (Matthew Webber) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 15:12:03 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Also my name is Sophie not "recruiter". Hi Sophie, My apologies for any offence caused by my part in this. In fact in my original message, when I said "recruiter" rather than your name, it was because I didn't want to make it personal. Guess I should have thought it through a little more! Matthew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard at indigo3.com Tue Dec 6 10:20:36 2016 From: richard at indigo3.com (Richard Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 15:20:36 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 14:59 Steve Holden wrote: > +1 > > A little innocent fun is OK, but when it runs the risk of being hurtful > it's probably gone far enough. It would be horrible if the Python community > got a name for being snide. > +1 While I didn't post, I considered making something of a contribution, which was, in hindsight not going to be a positive contribution. However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). Dyslexia or not, the content of the opportunities that was advertised were not of acceptable standard: - no salary definitions - no explanation of benefits - nothing but a technology stack as way of skills requirements which is next to pointless - no info on precise location in London - naught but a slightly vague title - a salary carrot on a long stick (the "up to ?95k"). It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish biting. Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. ~ Rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at tatw.name Tue Dec 6 10:29:35 2016 From: tom at tatw.name (Tom Wright) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 15:29:35 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> Message-ID: Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope this constitutes thought. I would make three points: I. The tone of the response may in part be due to the recruitment topic more than anything else. This is unfortunately a rather fraught subject. Bulk recruitment ads are so common it is unsurprising that people would view them as a piece of text rather than a correspondence with a real person. II. I suspect that many readers do not view this list as for communication that requires "professional" standards. And might view the imposition of professionalism in this context as problematic. This represents the key conflict at the heart of codes of conduct: in-group behaviour that can be damagingly exclusionary, versus the imposition of strict rules that impinge upon an informal setting. III. I don't know if the guidance on this list for jobs posts is particularly clear, and if I am not mistaken is mostly held in people's heads. An unfortunate side effect of no clearly defined rules is that the informal rules can be unforced rather unfriendlily. On 6 Dec 2016 1:46 p.m., "David Wilson" wrote: > While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the > recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad taste. > > I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly confuse > license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch more, > either through finger memory or plain old thinko. It would not be > without embarrassment to have strangers publicly ridicule such errors, > especially in a professional context as occurred here. > > This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the underlying > insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of Conduct, > therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect on it. > > > David > > On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:57:00PM +0000, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > > On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: > > > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not > > > have simple values. > > > > Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of > > misspelled principles. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Tue Dec 6 11:49:49 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 16:49:49 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> Message-ID: Yes, it's a pity the more rational feedback didn't come first, but knees do tend to jerk at recruitment communications. S Steve Holden On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Tom Wright wrote: > Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope this > constitutes thought. > > I would make three points: > > I. The tone of the response may in part be due to the recruitment topic > more than anything else. This is unfortunately a rather fraught subject. > Bulk recruitment ads are so common it is unsurprising that people would > view them as a piece of text rather than a correspondence with a real > person. > > II. I suspect that many readers do not view this list as for communication > that requires "professional" standards. And might view the imposition of > professionalism in this context as problematic. > > This represents the key conflict at the heart of codes of conduct: > in-group behaviour that can be damagingly exclusionary, versus the > imposition of strict rules that impinge upon an informal setting. > > III. I don't know if the guidance on this list for jobs posts is > particularly clear, and if I am not mistaken is mostly held in people's > heads. An unfortunate side effect of no clearly defined rules is that the > informal rules can be unforced rather unfriendlily. > > On 6 Dec 2016 1:46 p.m., "David Wilson" wrote: > >> While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the >> recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad taste. >> >> I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly confuse >> license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch more, >> either through finger memory or plain old thinko. It would not be >> without embarrassment to have strangers publicly ridicule such errors, >> especially in a professional context as occurred here. >> >> This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the underlying >> insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of Conduct, >> therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect on it. >> >> >> David >> >> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:57:00PM +0000, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: >> > On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: >> > > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not >> > > have simple values. >> > >> > Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of >> > misspelled principles. >> > >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > python-uk mailing list >> > python-uk at python.org >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk Tue Dec 6 12:35:33 2016 From: sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk (Sophie Hendley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:35:33 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks everyone for the feedback. They are both genuinely excellent positions for the right person. Of course I have lots more info on both roles for anyone who is interested or wishes to recommend someone. @Steve thanks for your detailed response- will take this onboard Have a good evening all! Sophie On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 4:49 PM, wrote: > Send python-uk mailing list submissions to > python-uk at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > python-uk-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > python-uk-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of python-uk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 (Matthew Webber) > 2. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Richard Smith) > 3. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k (Tom Wright) > 4. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Steve Holden) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 15:12:03 +0000 > From: Matthew Webber > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 6 > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > >> Also my name is Sophie not "recruiter". > Hi Sophie, > My apologies for any offence caused by my part in this. > In fact in my original message, when I said "recruiter" rather than your > name, it was because I didn't want to make it personal. Guess I should have > thought it through a little more! > Matthew > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161206/29658f00/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 15:20:36 +0000 > From: Richard Smith > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > mgEn4XOjg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 14:59 Steve Holden wrote: > > > +1 > > > > A little innocent fun is OK, but when it runs the risk of being hurtful > > it's probably gone far enough. It would be horrible if the Python > community > > got a name for being snide. > > > > +1 > > While I didn't post, I considered making something of a contribution, which > was, in hindsight not going to be a positive contribution. > > However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I > object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently > added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). > > Dyslexia or not, the content of the opportunities that was advertised were > not of acceptable standard: > > - no salary definitions > - no explanation of benefits > - nothing but a technology stack as way of skills requirements which is > next to pointless > - no info on precise location in London > - naught but a slightly vague title > - a salary carrot on a long stick (the "up to ?95k"). > > It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post > and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish > biting. > > Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As > it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > ~ Rich > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161206/3531b3c4/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 15:29:35 +0000 > From: Tom Wright > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope this > constitutes thought. > > I would make three points: > > I. The tone of the response may in part be due to the recruitment topic > more than anything else. This is unfortunately a rather fraught subject. > Bulk recruitment ads are so common it is unsurprising that people would > view them as a piece of text rather than a correspondence with a real > person. > > II. I suspect that many readers do not view this list as for communication > that requires "professional" standards. And might view the imposition of > professionalism in this context as problematic. > > This represents the key conflict at the heart of codes of conduct: in-group > behaviour that can be damagingly exclusionary, versus the imposition of > strict rules that impinge upon an informal setting. > > III. I don't know if the guidance on this list for jobs posts is > particularly clear, and if I am not mistaken is mostly held in people's > heads. An unfortunate side effect of no clearly defined rules is that the > informal rules can be unforced rather unfriendlily. > > On 6 Dec 2016 1:46 p.m., "David Wilson" wrote: > > > While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the > > recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad taste. > > > > I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly confuse > > license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch more, > > either through finger memory or plain old thinko. It would not be > > without embarrassment to have strangers publicly ridicule such errors, > > especially in a professional context as occurred here. > > > > This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the underlying > > insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of Conduct, > > therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect on it. > > > > > > David > > > > On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:57:00PM +0000, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > > > On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: > > > > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not > > > > have simple values. > > > > > > Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of > > > misspelled principles. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > python-uk mailing list > > > python-uk at python.org > > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161206/18e4e3ea/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 16:49:49 +0000 > From: Steve Holden > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Yes, it's a pity the more rational feedback didn't come first, but knees do > tend to jerk at recruitment communications. S > > Steve Holden > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Tom Wright wrote: > > > Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope this > > constitutes thought. > > > > I would make three points: > > > > I. The tone of the response may in part be due to the recruitment topic > > more than anything else. This is unfortunately a rather fraught subject. > > Bulk recruitment ads are so common it is unsurprising that people would > > view them as a piece of text rather than a correspondence with a real > > person. > > > > II. I suspect that many readers do not view this list as for > communication > > that requires "professional" standards. And might view the imposition of > > professionalism in this context as problematic. > > > > This represents the key conflict at the heart of codes of conduct: > > in-group behaviour that can be damagingly exclusionary, versus the > > imposition of strict rules that impinge upon an informal setting. > > > > III. I don't know if the guidance on this list for jobs posts is > > particularly clear, and if I am not mistaken is mostly held in people's > > heads. An unfortunate side effect of no clearly defined rules is that the > > informal rules can be unforced rather unfriendlily. > > > > On 6 Dec 2016 1:46 p.m., "David Wilson" wrote: > > > >> While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the > >> recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad taste. > >> > >> I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly confuse > >> license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch more, > >> either through finger memory or plain old thinko. It would not be > >> without embarrassment to have strangers publicly ridicule such errors, > >> especially in a professional context as occurred here. > >> > >> This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the underlying > >> insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of Conduct, > >> therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect on it. > >> > >> > >> David > >> > >> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:57:00PM +0000, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > >> > On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: > >> > > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not > >> > > have simple values. > >> > > >> > Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of > >> > misspelled principles. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > python-uk mailing list > >> > python-uk at python.org > >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> python-uk mailing list > >> python-uk at python.org > >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161206/ceae7f61/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > ------------------------------ > > End of python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 9 > ***************************************** > -- Sophie Hendley| Principal Consultant| Digital Vision *M:* 07505145903 *E: *sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk *W:* www.digvis.co.uk Sponsor me please!!!!- https://www.justgiving.com/sophiehendley/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjl at pobox.com Tue Dec 6 16:47:31 2016 From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 21:47:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-15?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London?= =?iso-8859-15?q?_up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <6cf73220-a5de-379c-8864-d1907508e4bc@forestfield.co.uk> <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Dec 2016, Steve Holden wrote: > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey > wrote: > >> On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: >>> Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a >>> bit worrying. >> >> Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of >> professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to >> politicians. > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? Now everybody's friends again, I feel I can get away with adding: There actually is a "principal principle" in the philosophy of probability (and therefore arguably in physics): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_interpretations#cite_note-SEPIP-1 and here is a video that agrees it stems from a real problem in physics, but is the wrong solution to that problem (you can tell from the title what his proposed solution is :-): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfzSE4Hoxbc From PyUK at getaroundtoit.co.uk Tue Dec 6 18:25:11 2016 From: PyUK at getaroundtoit.co.uk (PyUK at getaroundtoit.co.uk) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:25:11 +1300 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> Message-ID: <2e6e9713-1911-c4e2-036d-30d81c986a35@getaroundtoit.co.uk> On 07/12/16 04:20, Richard Smith wrote: > On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 14:59 Steve Holden > wrote: > +1 > A little innocent fun is OK, but when it runs the risk of being > hurtful it's probably gone far enough. It would be horrible if the > Python community got a name for being snide. > +1 > > While I didn't post, I considered making something of a contribution, > which was, in hindsight not going to be a positive contribution. > > However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I > object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently > added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). > > Dyslexia or not, the content of the opportunities that was advertised > were not of acceptable standard: > > - no salary definitions > - no explanation of benefits > - nothing but a technology stack as way of skills requirements which is > next to pointless > - no info on precise location in London > - naught but a slightly vague title > - a salary carrot on a long stick (the "up to ?95k"). > > It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the > post and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some > fish biting. > > Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. > As it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. I join the sardonic amusement. Despite Steve's (all too correct) sympathy expressed, I'm still on the 'disappointed' side of the ledger because almost any 'advice' one reads for applicants writing/responding to agencies and potential employers includes stern (or lofty) advice about spell-checking, grammar-checking, sanity-checking, etc, etc. Do as I say, and not as I do? Respect to the OP for responding in civil fashion! Marks-off for not addressing the (above) list specifications (which again, given that you wouldn't want a non-Python person applying for such tasks and would immediately question if (s)he had read the advert properly?) Et tu Brute? Strike three, as my American friends would say, was that said-reply will not be threaded with the rest of the email conversation. Any more than the OP is likely to connect an application entitled "Programmer skilled in interfacing C++ to COBOL" with these positions... Sophie: you won't make these mistakes again, but I hope you will return with news of future opportunities. Meantime, how about reading-up on the technical aspects (per above), and then seeking to rebuild relationships by offering to host a local Python gathering, sponsor pizza at the next Python dojo, or similar? (yes, we're that simple/easy to please!) -- Regards, =dn From daniele at vurt.org Tue Dec 6 23:10:36 2016 From: daniele at vurt.org (Daniele Procida) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 04:10:36 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> Message-ID: <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: >However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I >object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently >added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that they are not. >It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post >and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish >biting. > >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on this email list. Daniele From alistair.broomhead at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 03:12:21 2016 From: alistair.broomhead at gmail.com (Alistair Broomhead) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 08:12:21 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: Let's get a few things out in the open: 1. This shouldn't need saying, but the python-uk making list is here to serve the Python community in the United Kingdom. As the key usage of Python by a large chunk of that community is gainful employment those of us I've spoken to in person all seem to agree that job listings are appropriate. 2. There is no code of conduct on this mailing list, but if we're not sensible and sensitive there are only two ways this can go: a) there is no more mailing list, nobody wants to be on here b) we end up with a code of conduct in order to avoid a) If we go the route of b) there may well be standards imposed on job listings posted to this mailing list, but one or two of the replies on this thread would probably result in those people having their posting privileges removed. As someone who tries to be professional on here I have no problem with that idea, but some might find it off-putting, si maybe we should just be sensible. 3. Mail filters exist. If you really have an objection to seeing job adverts there are only a handful of recruiters on this list. Just block their messages and you won't have any problems. 4. Bullying is never acceptable. I can see that there is some good natured humour in here, but at the point someone takes offence you should stop, or at least make your position of not trying to cause offence clear. Telling someone they should not have been offended, or that they shouldn't be in here in the first place is not acceptable and creates further bad feeling. 5. Don't forget that most of the people who subscribe to this list do not post. It might feel like a friendly chat between friends that is intruded on by people you might not agree with, but there are hundreds if not thousands of people watching. Hopefully all of these points should be obvious to us all, and I'm not way out of line on any of them, but I don't like the way this thread has gone, it does not match with my thoughts on the temperament of our community, and if there was a vote to close button I'd have pressed it long ago. If you agree the best response to this message is none at all. Al On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 04:19 Daniele Procida, wrote: > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: > > >However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I > >object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently > >added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). > > It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment > messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that > they are not. > > >It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the > post > >and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish > >biting. > > > >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. > As > >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on > this email list. > > Daniele > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Wed Dec 7 05:02:26 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:02:26 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:10 AM, Daniele Procida wrote: > >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. > As > >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on > this email list. > It's certainly the kind of value judgement that is unhelpful, so thanks for calling it out, Daniele. I'd like to feel we can treat everyone with the same courtesy we'd like for ourselves. Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard at indigo3.com Wed Dec 7 05:31:56 2016 From: richard at indigo3.com (Richard Smith) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 10:31:56 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 04:19 Daniele Procida wrote: > It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment > messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that > they are not. > Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. If you received the OPs email, directly, would you require a little more information in the post other than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick? Is this now the minimum people accept for employment opportunities and recruitment messages? I'm sorry but: a) I don't want to have to email a recruitment agent and beg for more info b) email recruitment agent only to be put on yet another mailing list to get more spam This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on > this email list. What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates and many underhanded activities. Unfortunately Sophie works in for an industry which has little respect to start with. This is by no means a reflection on Sophie herself, but that of the many underhanded agents who are out there for the money only. Sophie is going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent. Don't forget, we, as candidates, also require some respect and it was the content, or more precisely, the lack of content in the original email that I found disrespectful. As someone said earlier. It's not hard to please us. Pizza or a visit to a python dojo etc... These actions would show a greater commitment to the community than sending a stark employment opportunity. IMO it works both ways. ~ Rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniele at vurt.org Wed Dec 7 05:49:03 2016 From: daniele at vurt.org (Daniele Procida) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:49:03 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: <20161207104903.1561133330@mail.wservices.ch> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: >On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 04:19 Daniele Procida wrote: > >> It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment >> messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that >> they are not. >> > >Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. Actually, *your* reply did go into my spam folder, and it was a while before I even found it. >If you received the OPs email, >directly, would you require a little more information in the post other >than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick? > >Is this now the minimum people accept for employment opportunities and >recruitment messages? > >I'm sorry but: > >a) I don't want to have to email a recruitment agent and beg for more info >b) email recruitment agent only to be put on yet another mailing list to >get more spam Your wants and mine are not the issue here. >> This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on >> this email list. > > >What was rude about it? Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude. >Sophie is >going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent. Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list in accordance with its agreed purposes, politely. Daniele From chris at simplistix.co.uk Wed Dec 7 05:54:26 2016 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:54:26 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> Message-ID: <3aa97fac-fc1d-dfd5-df04-112c1aa9ab55@simplistix.co.uk> Wow, another community lists degenerates into PC hand wringing, this time as a result of a lazy recruiter spamming the list. I find the asymmetry of all this ironic: a recruiter spamming a list and then throwing a hissy fit when people light heartedly jest about the post, followed by 30+ messages of discussion about how we're hurting her feelings and making her feel unwelcome. Sorry, but the signal-to-noise ratio of this list pretty much just dropped to zero for me, so I'll be leaving now... Chris On 06/12/2016 16:49, Steve Holden wrote: > Yes, it's a pity the more rational feedback didn't come first, but > knees do tend to jerk at recruitment communications. S > > Steve Holden > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Tom Wright > wrote: > > Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope > this constitutes thought. > > I would make three points: > > I. The tone of the response may in part be due to the recruitment > topic more than anything else. This is unfortunately a rather > fraught subject. Bulk recruitment ads are so common it is > unsurprising that people would view them as a piece of text rather > than a correspondence with a real person. > > II. I suspect that many readers do not view this list as for > communication that requires "professional" standards. And might > view the imposition of professionalism in this context as > problematic. > > This represents the key conflict at the heart of codes of conduct: > in-group behaviour that can be damagingly exclusionary, versus the > imposition of strict rules that impinge upon an informal setting. > > III. I don't know if the guidance on this list for jobs posts is > particularly clear, and if I am not mistaken is mostly held in > people's heads. An unfortunate side effect of no clearly defined > rules is that the informal rules can be unforced rather unfriendlily. > > On 6 Dec 2016 1:46 p.m., "David Wilson" > wrote: > > While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the > recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad > taste. > > I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly > confuse > license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch > more, > either through finger memory or plain old thinko. It would not be > without embarrassment to have strangers publicly ridicule such > errors, > especially in a professional context as occurred here. > > This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the > underlying > insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of > Conduct, > therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect > on it. > > > David > > On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:57:00PM +0000, Nicholas H.Tollervey > wrote: > > On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: > > > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not > > > have simple values. > > > > Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of > > misspelled principles. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lukasaoz at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 05:55:31 2016 From: lukasaoz at gmail.com (Cory Benfield (Lukasa)) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:55:31 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: > > What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates and many underhanded activities. What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself: > It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post > and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish > biting. > > Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As > it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?, when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming. Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the mailing list will call you out when you do it. This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people having apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had on either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that?s your position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*. Cory From kaitlyn.means at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 05:57:51 2016 From: kaitlyn.means at gmail.com (Kaitlyn Tierney) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:57:51 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? Kaitlyn > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: > > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: >> >> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates and many underhanded activities. > > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself: > >> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post >> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish >> biting. >> >> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As >> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?, when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming. > > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the mailing list will call you out when you do it. > > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people having apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had on either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that?s your position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*. > > Cory > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk From dw+python-uk at hmmz.org Wed Dec 7 06:00:54 2016 From: dw+python-uk at hmmz.org (David Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:00:54 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: <20161207110054.GG13262@k3> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:31:56AM +0000, Richard Smith wrote: > Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. If you received the OPs > email, directly, would you require a little more information in the > post other than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick? The way this generally works is to forward a generic CV, wait an hour, receive a phone call, then ask every question on your mind. As for why it works that way, well, at least recruiters generally have much more to lose by sharing their client's name than you do a generic CV. It sucks but it's the way it is, and anyway it's not that much of a hurdle to cross, not least since often things will be shared by telephone that nobody in their right mind would commit to page. The only recruiters who don't follow this pattern are generally those working directly for a company, or perhaps less commonly, those with an exclusive agreement or structure to provide services to their client, and if you only accept solicitation from those then you'd be ignoring 90% of the work out there. (I hate to find myself defending that industry, but in this case it seems fair) David From nick at nivan.net Wed Dec 7 06:08:37 2016 From: nick at nivan.net (Nick Murdoch) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:08:37 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161207110837.GF4803@debian> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:57:51AM +0000, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? +1 > Kaitlyn > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: > > > > > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: > >> > >> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates and many underhanded activities. > > > > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself: > > > >> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post > >> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish > >> biting. > >> > >> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As > >> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > > > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?, when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming. > > > > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the mailing list will call you out when you do it. > > > > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people having apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had on either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that?s your position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*. > > > > Cory > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk From thomas at kluyver.me.uk Wed Dec 7 06:11:58 2016 From: thomas at kluyver.me.uk (Thomas Kluyver) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 11:11:58 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1481109118.569276.811212105.04E9C801@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of > Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process > for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive > direction? Following the vein of trying to move towards productive discussion: there appears to be some disagreement on how appropriate job posts are on this list. Daniele mentioned that there's a general consensus that recruitment messages are allowed, but clearly not everyone is happy about that. - Should there be a separate discussion list which does not allow recruitment messages? This list is generally quite low traffic (except the last couple of days ;-), so it doesn't seem worth splitting it further. - Do we consider some recruitment messages more spammish than others? Is there a certain level of detail we should expect? Are there guidelines we can give recruiters wanting to contact the list? Thomas From kaitlyn.means at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 06:16:21 2016 From: kaitlyn.means at gmail.com (Kaitlyn Tierney) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:16:21 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <1481109118.569276.811212105.04E9C801@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481109118.569276.811212105.04E9C801@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <35AC8C3C-62AA-4E3B-A438-CB0E112769B5@gmail.com> I?m happy not to have recruitment messages on the discussion list. We all get inundated with enough of them as it is, and anyone actively looking for opportunities would probably be smart enough to visit https://pythonjobs.github.io/ or attend a Dojo and chat with others about hiring in person. If there are strong counter-arguments though, or some long-standing historical discussion I?m unaware of, by all means... Kaitlyn > On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:11, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: >> I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of >> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process >> for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive >> direction? > > Following the vein of trying to move towards productive discussion: > there appears to be some disagreement on how appropriate job posts are > on this list. Daniele mentioned that there's a general consensus that > recruitment messages are allowed, but clearly not everyone is happy > about that. > > - Should there be a separate discussion list which does not allow > recruitment messages? This list is generally quite low traffic (except > the last couple of days ;-), so it doesn't seem worth splitting it > further. > > - Do we consider some recruitment messages more spammish than others? Is > there a certain level of detail we should expect? Are there guidelines > we can give recruiters wanting to contact the list? > > Thomas > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ntoll at ntoll.org Wed Dec 7 06:19:36 2016 From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:19:36 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <35AC8C3C-62AA-4E3B-A438-CB0E112769B5@gmail.com> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481109118.569276.811212105.04E9C801@webmail.messagingengine.com> <35AC8C3C-62AA-4E3B-A438-CB0E112769B5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43d71485-2087-2e13-afff-d5a14fc5b18d@ntoll.org> This topic comes around every couple of years or so... If memory serves me correctly, most people have thus far agreed posting jobs is fine (assuming they're comprehensively described and not obvious recruitment spam). On 07/12/16 11:16, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > I?m happy not to have recruitment messages on the discussion list. We > all get inundated with enough of them as it is, and anyone actively > looking for opportunities would probably be smart enough to > visit https://pythonjobs.github.io/ or attend a Dojo and chat with > others about hiring in person. If there are strong counter-arguments > though, or some long-standing historical discussion I?m unaware of, by > all means... > > Kaitlyn > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:11, Thomas Kluyver > > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: >>> I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of >>> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process >>> for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive >>> direction? >> >> Following the vein of trying to move towards productive discussion: >> there appears to be some disagreement on how appropriate job posts are >> on this list. Daniele mentioned that there's a general consensus that >> recruitment messages are allowed, but clearly not everyone is happy >> about that. >> >> - Should there be a separate discussion list which does not allow >> recruitment messages? This list is generally quite low traffic (except >> the last couple of days ;-), so it doesn't seem worth splitting it >> further. >> >> - Do we consider some recruitment messages more spammish than others? Is >> there a certain level of detail we should expect? Are there guidelines >> we can give recruiters wanting to contact the list? >> >> Thomas >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk Wed Dec 7 06:23:37 2016 From: sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk (Sophie Hendley) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:23:37 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Guys, I would really like to put an end to this now as everyone is busy, plus its slightly depressing watching people who don;t know me at all say mean things about me on here. As a response to anyone thinking we recruiters are lazy etc I would like to say its very hard to write something that pleases everyone in an advert. I wrote a very brief description because I didn't want to send a huge email which you very busy people might not have time to fully process. My intent was purely to catch anyone who was open to something news attention then as mentioned they could get in touch and we could have a nice long chat about the roles over the phone. I have had complaints from people before both about saying too little and too much in an advert and you can't please everyone. In fact Linkedin tells us constantly as recruiters we should keep it short and sweet as evidence suggests that yields a better response. I have been working in recruitment for 8 years and I know that we have a bad reputation but I think its obvious to most you shouldn't judge everyone by the same standard (if we did the names I've been called on here might make me dislike every developer I ever met). I love my job and I always try to do it as honestly and professionally as possible. I will endeavour to send more info next time as I can see the people on the group would like that. Thanks everyone and have a good day. On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 11:08 AM, wrote: > Send python-uk mailing list submissions to > python-uk at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > python-uk-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > python-uk-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of python-uk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Cory Benfield (Lukasa)) > 2. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Kaitlyn Tierney) > 3. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (David Wilson) > 4. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Nick Murdoch) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:55:31 +0000 > From: "Cory Benfield (Lukasa)" > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: > > > > What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a > little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the > world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake > candidates and many underhanded activities. > > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself: > > > It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the > post > > and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish > > biting. > > > > Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. > As > > it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and > opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the > best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens > of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is > rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should > note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a > discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call, > spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?, > when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough > evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming. > > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt > with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and > moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter > behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether > recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, > you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the > messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to > criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you > aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the > mailing list will call you out when you do it. > > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in > place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people having > apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had on > either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself > required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to > have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed > because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that?s your > position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which > allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should > not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that > comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*. > > Cory > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:57:51 +0000 > From: Kaitlyn Tierney > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of > Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for > enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? > > Kaitlyn > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) > wrote: > > > > > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: > >> > >> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a > little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the > world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake > candidates and many underhanded activities. > > > > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself: > > > >> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the > post > >> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish > >> biting. > >> > >> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more > accommodating. As > >> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > > > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and > opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the > best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens > of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is > rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should > note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a > discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call, > spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?, > when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough > evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming. > > > > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt > with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and > moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter > behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether > recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, > you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the > messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to > criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you > aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the > mailing list will call you out when you do it. > > > > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct > in place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people > having apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had > on either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself > required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to > have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed > because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that?s your > position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which > allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should > not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that > comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*. > > > > Cory > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:00:54 +0000 > From: David Wilson > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: <20161207110054.GG13262 at k3> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:31:56AM +0000, Richard Smith wrote: > > > Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. If you received the OPs > > email, directly, would you require a little more information in the > > post other than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick? > > The way this generally works is to forward a generic CV, wait an hour, > receive a phone call, then ask every question on your mind. As for why > it works that way, well, at least recruiters generally have much more to > lose by sharing their client's name than you do a generic CV. > > It sucks but it's the way it is, and anyway it's not that much of a > hurdle to cross, not least since often things will be shared by > telephone that nobody in their right mind would commit to page. > > The only recruiters who don't follow this pattern are generally those > working directly for a company, or perhaps less commonly, those with an > exclusive agreement or structure to provide services to their client, > and if you only accept solicitation from those then you'd be ignoring > 90% of the work out there. > > (I hate to find myself defending that industry, but in this case it > seems fair) > > > David > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:08:37 +0000 > From: Nick Murdoch > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: <20161207110837.GF4803 at debian> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:57:51AM +0000, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of > Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for > enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? > > +1 > > > Kaitlyn > > > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: > > >> > > >> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a > little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the > world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake > candidates and many underhanded activities. > > > > > > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself: > > > > > >> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making > the post > > >> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some > fish > > >> biting. > > >> > > >> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more > accommodating. As > > >> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > > > > > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and > opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the > best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens > of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is > rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should > note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a > discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call, > spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?, > when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough > evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming. > > > > > > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt > with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and > moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter > behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether > recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, > you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the > messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to > criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you > aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the > mailing list will call you out when you do it. > > > > > > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct > in place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people > having apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had > on either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself > required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to > have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed > because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that?s your > position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which > allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should > not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that > comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*. > > > > > > Cory > > > _______________________________________________ > > > python-uk mailing list > > > python-uk at python.org > > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > ------------------------------ > > End of python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 13 > ****************************************** > -- Sophie Hendley| Principal Consultant| Digital Vision *M:* 07505145903 *E: *sophie.hendley at digvis.co.uk *W:* www.digvis.co.uk Sponsor me please!!!!- https://www.justgiving.com/sophiehendley/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ntoll at ntoll.org Wed Dec 7 06:24:44 2016 From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:24:44 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..? Message-ID: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> I've been asked to answer this. I've already replied but I wonder what the wider community think..? My response mentioned: * MicroPython bringing Python to embedded / IoT communities (and such communities into the Python world). * Python 2 / Python 3 (a perennial) * Python in education: with the micro:bit, Calliope (German micro:bit) and Adafruit all settling on MicroPython lots of kids and teachers will be learning Python next year. Also viz RPi - now the most successful computing in education project in history if measured in terms of devices shipped (and they promote Python too). * Python in data science. If the London PyData is anything to go by, things have only just started in this respect. Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..? Season's greetings... N. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From richard at arbee-design.co.uk Wed Dec 7 06:33:30 2016 From: richard at arbee-design.co.uk (Richard Barran) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:33:30 +0100 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161207104903.1561133330@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <20161207104903.1561133330@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: > On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:49, Daniele Procida wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: > >> What was rude about it? > > Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude. > >> Sophie is >> going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent. > > Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list in accordance with its agreed purposes, politely. > I have to disagree; using a list in accordance with its agreed purpose, or with a code of conduct, or whatever, is not enough. The people who subscribe to this list are busy; we all have lives, jobs, families, unreasonable bosses, tiring commutes, sick and elderly parents, etc? Someone who requests our attention and time should respect that time, that attention that we are giving them. The recruiter who started this thread has posted several times before to this list; looking at her previous posts, they are well formatted, explain succinctly the jobs on offer, and provide enough information for me to decide if I want to contact her for more information (and just in case my boss is reading this: no, I?m not *actually* reading the job ads in detail!). This latest post, however, was frankly lazy: - typo in the title. - a list of technologies that?s badly copy-and-pasted (e.g ?Postgre?) as well as showing poor understanding of the subject area (?tech stack? includes ?APIs?. Err, come again?). The OP has proven that "that she can be a trusted agent? (to quote from Richard Smith?s email) in the past. However, trust and respect is not something that is earned once and for all - if I start spouting rubbish, I can expect to be called out on it, not matter how much respect (or ?browny points?) I might have earned in the past. And I think that this should apply to anyone who posts to a mailing list. Richard From alistair.broomhead at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 06:49:17 2016 From: alistair.broomhead at gmail.com (Alistair Broomhead) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 11:49:17 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <20161207104903.1561133330@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: I would prefer not to hold other people to a higher standard than I hold myself. I know I'm certainly guilty of sending an email in a rush before, and later seeing that it wasn't perfect. The matter of the email's spelling being raked up again and again, when Sophie has apologised for it, and pointed out that this is something she struggles with on account of her disability, quite frankly stinks of ableism, which I have no time for. This community has a reputation for being inclusive and friendly. Picking on someone's disability is a great way to destroy that reputation. Please don't. On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 11:44 Richard Barran wrote: > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:49, Daniele Procida wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: > > > >> What was rude about it? > > > > Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude. > > > >> Sophie is > >> going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent. > > > > Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list > in accordance with its agreed purposes, politely. > > > > I have to disagree; using a list in accordance with its agreed purpose, or > with a code of conduct, or whatever, is not enough. > The people who subscribe to this list are busy; we all have lives, jobs, > families, unreasonable bosses, tiring commutes, sick and elderly parents, > etc? > Someone who requests our attention and time should respect that time, that > attention that we are giving them. > > The recruiter who started this thread has posted several times before to > this list; looking at her previous posts, they are well formatted, explain > succinctly the jobs on offer, and provide enough information for me to > decide if I want to contact her for more information (and just in case my > boss is reading this: no, I?m not *actually* reading the job ads in > detail!). > > This latest post, however, was frankly lazy: > - typo in the title. > - a list of technologies that?s badly copy-and-pasted (e.g ?Postgre?) as > well as showing poor understanding of the subject area (?tech stack? > includes ?APIs?. Err, come again?). > > The OP has proven that "that she can be a trusted agent? (to quote from > Richard Smith?s email) in the past. > However, trust and respect is not something that is earned once and for > all - if I start spouting rubbish, I can expect to be called out on it, not > matter how much respect (or ?browny points?) I might have earned in the > past. And I think that this should apply to anyone who posts to a mailing > list. > > Richard > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard at indigo3.com Wed Dec 7 06:54:00 2016 From: richard at indigo3.com (Richard Smith) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 11:54:00 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 10:56 Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: For future reference, I did criticise the work... and was then accused of being rude about my personal summary dismissal of the quality of the recruiter based on the evidence available. Furthermore a CoC is not the way forward. CoC's validate the passive agaressive stance on interpersonal communications. For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk to people. The WORST thing in the world is the phrase "I'm offended". In the words of Stephen Fry, 'So what!'. I shan't be contributing any further. ~ Rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparks.m at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 07:06:45 2016 From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:06:45 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..? In-Reply-To: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> References: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> Message-ID: Hi, Not a trend, but perhaps interesting to someone... I'm still working on Pyxie[1] - a Python to C++ compiler - which targets embedded systems. The idea is to allow python code to run on platforms too small for micropython - for example devices with 8K Flash & 1K RAM :-) [1] http://sparkslabs.com/pyxie/ There's **tons** still missing -- like many I'm time starved this is a personal/home project -- but it can do enough now to control simple robots with sensors. (Like the Dagu Playful Puppy) Not really ready for people who want "proper" python, but enough for people who want to fiddle with arduino type stuff without wanting to use C++ - I would still call it pre-alpha though. Might hit alpha next year though :-) (Grew out of the work I did on the microbit prototype we took into schools before the partnership - but this now does more than the specialised/hacky python/C++ compiler I did there. ) (Obvious questions like "how does this differ from shedskin, pypy or cython etc" are more the target device restricts a lot of options you'd normallly have. As a result it's not likely to end up as full fledged as those) The stack is designed to allow for profiles for targetting different platforms (to make testing easier), so it can spit out linux executables as well as arduino hex files at the moment. (And obviously nicely printed C++ code :) ) Michael. On 7 December 2016 at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > I've been asked to answer this. I've already replied but I wonder what > the wider community think..? > > My response mentioned: > > * MicroPython bringing Python to embedded / IoT communities (and such > communities into the Python world). > > * Python 2 / Python 3 (a perennial) > > * Python in education: with the micro:bit, Calliope (German micro:bit) > and Adafruit all settling on MicroPython lots of kids and teachers will > be learning Python next year. Also viz RPi - now the most successful > computing in education project in history if measured in terms of > devices shipped (and they promote Python too). > > * Python in data science. If the London PyData is anything to go by, > things have only just started in this respect. > > Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out > for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..? > > Season's greetings... > > N. > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tehunger at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 07:09:46 2016 From: tehunger at gmail.com (Thomas Hunger) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:09:46 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..? In-Reply-To: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> References: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> Message-ID: I'm cautiously optimistic about http://mypy-lang.org/ though I'd prefer not to have values as type annotations. I think the JS community demonstrated that retrofitting types can be done in a principled and nice way with TypeScript and flow so maybe we can do that, too. On 7 December 2016 at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > I've been asked to answer this. I've already replied but I wonder what > the wider community think..? > > My response mentioned: > > * MicroPython bringing Python to embedded / IoT communities (and such > communities into the Python world). > > * Python 2 / Python 3 (a perennial) > > * Python in education: with the micro:bit, Calliope (German micro:bit) > and Adafruit all settling on MicroPython lots of kids and teachers will > be learning Python next year. Also viz RPi - now the most successful > computing in education project in history if measured in terms of > devices shipped (and they promote Python too). > > * Python in data science. If the London PyData is anything to go by, > things have only just started in this respect. > > Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out > for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..? > > Season's greetings... > > N. > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lukasaoz at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 07:20:59 2016 From: lukasaoz at gmail.com (Cory Benfield (Lukasa)) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:20:59 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..? In-Reply-To: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> References: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> Message-ID: > On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > > Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out > for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..? For my part, I think there?s a lot of really interesting work going on in the asynchronous networking space in Python, both in terms of the literal work people are doing but also in terms of the technical discussions being had. The most interesting single technical development in this space was probably the introduction of the ?async? and ?await? keywords in Python 3.5. Even though these followed on from the introduction of asyncio, they accidentally provided a much richer API that allowed for experiments like David Beazley?s curio[0] project. This has managed to provide a new lease on life for the development of protocol stacks and APIs for asynchrony. There?s lots of great work going on in this space, and it?s really refreshing to see Python become one of the foremost languages for investigating new methods of managing concurrency. While I?m here I?ll also note PyPy 3.5 as being a huge project that I?m really looking forward to. PyPy has been one of the biggest reasons for me to still be Python 2.7-first, so having an opportunity to have a really fast interpreter with Python 3.5?s features is a huge thrill. Cory [0]: https://github.com/dabeaz/curio From steve at holdenweb.com Wed Dec 7 07:22:21 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:22:21 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161207110837.GF4803@debian> References: <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207110837.GF4803@debian> Message-ID: Since this list is run via a python.org server I'd imagine there's at least implicit consent by members to the Python Community Code of Conduct at https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/. The three headings are "Open," "Considerate" and "Respectful". Clearly there is no agreement on those terms and whether they can be applied to specific commnications. Without such agreement no commonly acceptable standard of behaviour can be established. If anyone feels the need to start discussions on any other CoC than the one linked above I will, having spent almost two years of my life establishing the PSF Diversity Statement and Code of Conduct, leave this list rather than filter out the correspondence. Take it from one who knows, while the aim is laudable you have many better things to do with your time. Of course it's entirely possible this will cause greater numbers to agitate FOR a new CoC ... regards Steve Steve Holden On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Nick Murdoch wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:57:51AM +0000, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of > Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for > enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? > > +1 > > > Kaitlyn > > > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: > > >> > > >> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a > little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the > world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake > candidates and many underhanded activities. > > > > > > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself: > > > > > >> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making > the post > > >> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some > fish > > >> biting. > > >> > > >> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more > accommodating. As > > >> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > > > > > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and > opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the > best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens > of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is > rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should > note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a > discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call, > spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?, > when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough > evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming. > > > > > > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt > with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and > moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter > behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether > recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, > you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the > messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to > criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you > aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the > mailing list will call you out when you do it. > > > > > > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct > in place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people > having apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had > on either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself > required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to > have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed > because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that?s your > position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which > allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should > not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that > comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*. > > > > > > Cory > > > _______________________________________________ > > > python-uk mailing list > > > python-uk at python.org > > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniele at vurt.org Wed Dec 7 07:31:14 2016 From: daniele at vurt.org (Daniele Procida) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:31:14 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161207123114.1301120532@mail.wservices.ch> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: > > >For future reference, I did criticise the work... and was then accused of >being rude about my personal summary dismissal of the quality of the >recruiter based on the evidence available. > >Furthermore a CoC is not the way forward. CoC's validate the passive >agaressive stance on interpersonal communications. For getattr(universe, >'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk to people. So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by being a man. I see Sophie's problem all too clearly. Daniele From daniele at vurt.org Wed Dec 7 07:37:07 2016 From: daniele at vurt.org (Daniele Procida) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:37:07 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: >I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of >Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process >for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too. As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by . If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described there are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to reconsider whether they can continue to participate here. Daniele From richard at arbee-design.co.uk Wed Dec 7 07:33:20 2016 From: richard at arbee-design.co.uk (Richard Barran) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:33:20 +0100 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <20161207104903.1561133330@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: > On 7 Dec 2016, at 12:49, Alistair Broomhead wrote: > > I would prefer not to hold other people to a higher standard than I hold myself. I know I'm certainly guilty of sending an email in a rush before, and later seeing that it wasn't perfect. It happens to everyone; a simple ?Oops, sorry, should have re-read before posting? should be enough to smooth any ruffled feathers. > The matter of the email's spelling being raked up again and again, when Sophie has apologised for it, and pointed out that this is something she struggles with on account of her disability, quite frankly stinks of ableism, which I have no time for. > This community has a reputation for being inclusive and friendly. Picking on someone's disability is a great way to destroy that reputation. Please don?t. I am reading your last 2 sentences and I hope I?m horribly misunderstanding your post; I?m reading that you are implying that I was picking on someone?s disability. Could you just confirm that I?ve got it completely wrong? > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 11:44 Richard Barran > wrote: > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:49, Daniele Procida > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith > wrote: > > > >> What was rude about it? > > > > Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude. > > > >> Sophie is > >> going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent. > > > > Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list in accordance with its agreed purposes, politely. > > > > I have to disagree; using a list in accordance with its agreed purpose, or with a code of conduct, or whatever, is not enough. > The people who subscribe to this list are busy; we all have lives, jobs, families, unreasonable bosses, tiring commutes, sick and elderly parents, etc? > Someone who requests our attention and time should respect that time, that attention that we are giving them. > > The recruiter who started this thread has posted several times before to this list; looking at her previous posts, they are well formatted, explain succinctly the jobs on offer, and provide enough information for me to decide if I want to contact her for more information (and just in case my boss is reading this: no, I?m not *actually* reading the job ads in detail!). > > This latest post, however, was frankly lazy: > - typo in the title. > - a list of technologies that?s badly copy-and-pasted (e.g ?Postgre?) as well as showing poor understanding of the subject area (?tech stack? includes ?APIs?. Err, come again?). > > The OP has proven that "that she can be a trusted agent? (to quote from Richard Smith?s email) in the past. > However, trust and respect is not something that is earned once and for all - if I start spouting rubbish, I can expect to be called out on it, not matter how much respect (or ?browny points?) I might have earned in the past. And I think that this should apply to anyone who posts to a mailing list. > > Richard > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard at indigo3.com Wed Dec 7 07:43:30 2016 From: richard at indigo3.com (Richard Smith) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 12:43:30 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <20161207123114.1301120532@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207123114.1301120532@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 12:33 Daniele Procida wrote: > So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by being > a man. > > I see Sophie's problem all too clearly. *blink*[0] Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Let me rephrase for your benefit[1]: For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow up and talk to people. Now who's getting personal and going off on the bullying. That's enough... I'm out of here. ~ Rich [0] I know, I said I wouldn't contribute further, but this entire response requires something [1] I honestly can't believe you think *that* has any bearing on my opinion or thinking. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Wed Dec 7 07:49:15 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:49:15 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207123114.1301120532@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: Great heavens, I'd have thought it was obvious that anyone telling a woman to "get a pair of balls" clearly has trouble perceiving women and men through the same set of filters. And now you involve the deity, albeit as a free variable. Then you interpret civil (though critical) comments about your behaviour (rather than about you) as personal bullying. I am struggling to understand your world view. S Steve Holden On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Richard Smith wrote: > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 12:33 Daniele Procida wrote: > >> So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by being >> a man. >> >> I see Sophie's problem all too clearly. > > > *blink*[0] > > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Let me > rephrase for your benefit[1]: > > For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow up and talk to people. > > Now who's getting personal and going off on the bullying. That's enough... > I'm out of here. > > ~ Rich > > [0] I know, I said I wouldn't contribute further, but this entire response > requires something > [1] I honestly can't believe you think *that* has any bearing on my > opinion or thinking. > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Wed Dec 7 07:51:03 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:51:03 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <20161207104903.1561133330@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Richard Barran wrote: > I am reading your last 2 sentences and I hope I?m horribly > misunderstanding your post; I?m reading that you are implying that I was > picking on someone?s disability. Could you just confirm that I?ve got it > completely wrong? > I'd have thought that was meant as a general injunction to us all rather than guidance intended for you personally. But other interpretations are possible. Personally I try to err on the side o fth emost charitable, in the interests of keeping email volumes down ;-) regards Steve Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas at kluyver.me.uk Wed Dec 7 08:12:17 2016 From: thomas at kluyver.me.uk (Thomas Kluyver) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 13:12:17 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Richard Smith wrote: > > ... > For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk > to people. ... > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Now you are unquestionably being rude to first Cory, then Daniele. The more messages like this I see, the more I agree that a code of conduct is necessary. If you don't think CoCs are necessary, please demonstrate that by remaining civil in the absence of one. Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.pepper at soton.ac.uk Wed Dec 7 02:45:57 2016 From: ryan.pepper at soton.ac.uk (Pepper R.) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 07:45:57 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> , <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: Once again, the volume of discussion on whether recruitment emails are appropriate for the list is larger than the volume of recruitment emails we get on this list.... On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:19 AM +0000, "Daniele Procida" > wrote: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: >However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I >object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently >added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that they are not. >It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post >and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish >biting. > >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on this email list. Daniele _______________________________________________ python-uk mailing list python-uk at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk From andy at reportlab.com Wed Dec 7 08:20:57 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:20:57 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition Message-ID: I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd years. Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away. I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List", that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code of Conduct, and must be respected. To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. Suggestions welcome on this thread Be pure. Be vigilant. Behave! - Andy From mvallebr at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 08:27:17 2016 From: mvallebr at gmail.com (Marcelo Elias Del Valle) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:27:17 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Hello, This is my first message to this list and I am sad the first message is not about python... But as you're talking about code of conduct, I would like to suggest something that has worked very well for me in other groups I participate. Personally, I don't like CoC much, because it's easy to turn it bureaucracy and make people not comfortable in giving their opinions, which is not usually what we desire. Absence of rules, though, is always bad. I other groups, we have this simple rule: you can offend any idea, you can't offend any people. - Anything you say offending an idea, like "Django is a piece of crap", "Mac is a devil operating system", "What you're saying is stupid", etc., is allowed. - Anything you say offending someone, like "You must be stupid to say something like this", "Don't defend Ruby, people who like ruby are incompetent", "Either you have a degree or your opinion is not worth being heard" can lead to kick you out. If you think a code of conduct is needed to stop people from sending jobs offers, this is another story and a separate subject, as a message with a job offer wouldn't justify any personal attack. But I don't think anything more than the above is needed as a rule for a mailing list. Usually members auto organize themselves in ML without any complicated list of conduct. Best regards, Marcelo. On 7 December 2016 at 13:12, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Richard Smith wrote: > > > ... > For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk to people. > > ... > > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. > > Now you are unquestionably being rude to first Cory, then Daniele. The > more messages like this I see, the more I agree that a code of conduct is > necessary. If you don't think CoCs are necessary, please demonstrate that > by remaining civil in the absence of one. > > Thomas > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -- Marcelo Elias Del Valle http://mvalle.com - @mvallebr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas at kluyver.me.uk Wed Dec 7 08:36:35 2016 From: thomas at kluyver.me.uk (Thomas Kluyver) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 13:36:35 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Andy Robinson wrote: > To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby > propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. I don't think anybody expected that! > Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. > Suggestions welcome on this thread Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them using while instead. Thomas From andy.idiaghe at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 08:46:54 2016 From: andy.idiaghe at gmail.com (Andy Idiaghe) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:46:54 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 18 Message-ID: To be fairly honest I for one agree with both parties. Having a CoC for an email list is a silly idea and brings literally nothing to the table. Now I do think Richard proved that ppl can be rude or "offensive" on the web to a certain degree, but I do think he makes fair points about the initial post. I don't believe the recruiter was guilt free, as the post was clearly spam. And yes I would have referred to Sophie as "the recruiter" as well because I don't (personally) care about the gender or whatever but I do care about what she was trying to convey. It's 2017 guys (*sighs* and girls), getting offended over words on the Internet is ridiculous imho. Take a walk or something. On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:18 PM, wrote: > Send python-uk mailing list submissions to > python-uk at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > python-uk-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > python-uk-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of python-uk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Steve Holden) > 2. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Steve Holden) > 3. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k > (Thomas Kluyver) > 4. Re: 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k (Pepper R.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:49:15 +0000 > From: Steve Holden > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Great heavens, I'd have thought it was obvious that anyone telling a woman > to "get a pair of balls" clearly has trouble perceiving women and men > through the same set of filters. And now you involve the deity, albeit as a > free variable. Then you interpret civil (though critical) comments about > your behaviour (rather than about you) as personal bullying. > > I am struggling to understand your world view. S > > Steve Holden > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Richard Smith > wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 12:33 Daniele Procida wrote: > > > >> So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by > being > >> a man. > >> > >> I see Sophie's problem all too clearly. > > > > > > *blink*[0] > > > > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Let me > > rephrase for your benefit[1]: > > > > For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow up and talk to people. > > > > Now who's getting personal and going off on the bullying. That's > enough... > > I'm out of here. > > > > ~ Rich > > > > [0] I know, I said I wouldn't contribute further, but this entire > response > > requires something > > [1] I honestly can't believe you think *that* has any bearing on my > > opinion or thinking. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-uk mailing list > > python-uk at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161207/892f36a0/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:51:03 +0000 > From: Steve Holden > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Richard Barran < > richard at arbee-design.co.uk> > wrote: > > > I am reading your last 2 sentences and I hope I?m horribly > > misunderstanding your post; I?m reading that you are implying that I was > > picking on someone?s disability. Could you just confirm that I?ve got it > > completely wrong? > > > > I'd have thought that was meant as a general injunction to us all rather > than guidance intended for you personally. But other interpretations are > possible. Personally I try to err on the side o fth emost charitable, in > the interests of keeping email volumes down ;-) > > regards > Steve > > Steve Holden > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161207/1b54e2c1/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 13:12:17 +0000 > From: Thomas Kluyver > To: python-uk at python.org > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88 at webmail.messagingengine.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Richard Smith wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk > > to people. > ... > > > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. > > > > Now you are unquestionably being rude to first Cory, then Daniele. The > more messages like this I see, the more I agree that a code of conduct > is necessary. If you don't think CoCs are necessary, please demonstrate > that by remaining civil in the absence of one. > > > Thomas > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161207/ed7c62c3/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 07:45:57 +0000 > From: Pepper R. > To: UK Python Users > Subject: Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to > ?95k > Message-ID: > mail.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Once again, the volume of discussion on whether recruitment emails are > appropriate for the list is larger than the volume of recruitment emails we > get on this list.... > > > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:19 AM +0000, "Daniele Procida" > wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: > > >However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I > >object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently > >added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). > > It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment > messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that > they are not. > > >It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the > post > >and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish > >biting. > > > >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. > As > >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on > this email list. > > Daniele > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > ------------------------------ > > End of python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 18 > ****************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andy at reportlab.com Wed Dec 7 08:47:15 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:47:15 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 7 December 2016 at 13:36, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language > features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may > be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them > using while instead. Hmm. Methinks we could implement a list filter, requiring strict pep-8 compliance of the any future message from offending senders. They would have to post in code. Maybe even with python 3 print syntax. The possibilities are endless... From steve at holdenweb.com Wed Dec 7 08:52:50 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:52:50 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Andy Robinson wrote: > > To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby > > propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. > > I don't think anybody expected that! > > Me least of all. Had I been consulted I would have said that I am not a suitable person to be enforcing CoCs and (in case you didn't get the message earlier) I agree with Andy that the Python CoC will suffice. But I know full well from my experience that to go too far down this road inevitably invites a schism between the "freewheelers" (my category for those whose happy life circumstances allow them to regard being offended as part and parcel of a fully-lived life) and the "enforcers" (those who would like specific punishments for specific offences. And I want no part of a battle between these two poles. I don't really enjoy being a member of polarised groups much at all. So, seriously, honoured and all that but you will have to look for an Enforcer elsewhere. I'm nobody's good example. > Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. > > Suggestions welcome on this thread > > Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language > features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may > be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them > using while instead. You are optimistic about the powers of enforcement. I believe the CoC does allow list managers to ban people after suitable warnings. But I'm not a list manager and have no pretensions to being one. definitely-not-your-enforcer-ly yr's - Steve Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lursty at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 08:57:33 2016 From: lursty at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gilberto_Gon=C3=A7alves?=) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:57:33 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: Unfortunately I'll have to agree with this too, I was surprised to see that thread happening here. One thing that is missing on the CoC for Python is actually what happens when situations like this arise. It just says that we will be respectful, well, that didn't happen, how can we prevent it from happening in the future? Cheers, Gil On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Daniele Procida wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > > >I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of > >Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process > >for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? > > Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too. > > As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by < > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>. > > If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described > there are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to > reconsider whether they can continue to participate here. > > Daniele > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stestagg at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 08:58:16 2016 From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 13:58:16 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Perhaps offenders could have their words replaced by the server with suitably contrite Monty Python quotes. I believe the Knights who say ni have a particularly apt vocabulary. On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 13:47, Andy Robinson wrote: On 7 December 2016 at 13:36, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language > features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may > be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them > using while instead. Hmm. Methinks we could implement a list filter, requiring strict pep-8 compliance of the any future message from offending senders. They would have to post in code. Maybe even with python 3 print syntax. The possibilities are endless... _______________________________________________ python-uk mailing list python-uk at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andy at reportlab.com Wed Dec 7 08:59:22 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:59:22 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 7 December 2016 at 13:52, Steve Holden wrote: > Me least of all. Had I been consulted I would have said that I am not a > suitable person to be enforcing CoCs and (in case you didn't get the message > earlier) I agree with Andy that the Python CoC will suffice. It was an attempt at a joke. "Yorkshire Inquisition" just popped into my head. Don't worry, it can remain entirely fictional. From andy at reportlab.com Wed Dec 7 09:04:10 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:04:10 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Hmmm. Seems eminently feasible. https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/docs/8-miles-high.html#basic-messaging-handling-workflow - Andy From steve at holdenweb.com Wed Dec 7 09:05:44 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:05:44 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: But perhaps an apt threat to anyone who gets out of hand. I'm sure we can find room for a Comfy Chair somewhere when someone needs a Good Talking To. S Steve Holden On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Andy Robinson wrote: > On 7 December 2016 at 13:52, Steve Holden wrote: > > Me least of all. Had I been consulted I would have said that I am not a > > suitable person to be enforcing CoCs and (in case you didn't get the > message > > earlier) I agree with Andy that the Python CoC will suffice. > > It was an attempt at a joke. "Yorkshire Inquisition" just popped into > my head. Don't worry, it can remain entirely fictional. > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andy at reportlab.com Wed Dec 7 09:08:57 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:08:57 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: It would actually be quite a good Mailman feature to be able to put a user "on watch" for N days, and prepend a first line to their messages henceforth saying "The Inquisition is watching this user. They need to mind their manners". The 10 minute sin-bin works better in sports than red cards. - Andy From mauve at mauveweb.co.uk Wed Dec 7 09:15:27 2016 From: mauve at mauveweb.co.uk (Daniel Pope) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 14:15:27 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump? On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 13:21 Andy Robinson, wrote: > I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd > years. Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away. > > I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List", > that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code > of Conduct, and must be respected. > > To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby > propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. > Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. > Suggestions welcome on this thread > > Be pure. Be vigilant. Behave! > > - Andy > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alistair.broomhead at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 09:26:04 2016 From: alistair.broomhead at gmail.com (Alistair Broomhead) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 14:26:04 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] London Python Project Nights (Build Something) Message-ID: Hey all! It's that time again, next Wednesday (14th) will be our December meet up. This month we're being hosted by the people at thesquareapp.com who have kindly offered to provide food and drinks. RSVP at: https://www.meetup.com/London-Python-Project-Nights/events/236073711/ Thanks, Al -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lukasaoz at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 09:29:45 2016 From: lukasaoz at gmail.com (Cory Benfield (Lukasa)) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:29:45 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 7 Dec 2016, at 14:15, Daniel Pope wrote: > > Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump? I?d say that depending on the context of the quote and the specific content, certainly. For example, if you were using Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump to provide supporting evidence for an assertion that people of some nationalities were more likely to be sexual offenders, then I think you?d find that the quote violates the CoC. In particular, I should note that Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump is frequently not Respectful. That means that he would frequently be in violation of this Code of Conduct were he a member of the Python community. But as always, context matters. Anyone claiming that quoting Time POTY Donald Trump is *always* ok or *always* forbidden is dealing in absolutes, and as we know, only Sith deal in absolutes. Cory From hansel at interpretthis.org Wed Dec 7 09:30:04 2016 From: hansel at interpretthis.org (Hansel Dunlop) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:30:04 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It could certainly be violated by embodying his behaviour ?\_(?)_/? h On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Daniel Pope wrote: > Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting > Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump? > > > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 13:21 Andy Robinson, wrote: > >> I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd >> years. Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away. >> >> I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List", >> that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code >> of Conduct, and must be respected. >> >> To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby >> propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. >> Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. >> Suggestions welcome on this thread >> >> Be pure. Be vigilant. Behave! >> >> - Andy >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -- Hansel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon+python-uk at unequivocal.eu Wed Dec 7 09:56:09 2016 From: jon+python-uk at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:56:09 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161207145609.GE2323@unequivocal.eu> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 02:15:27PM +0000, Daniel Pope wrote: > Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting > Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump?? I don't see why not; "Time Person of the Year" doesn't mean that the recipient is a "good person", it just means they've had a significant effect on the events of that year. Adolf Hitler was "Person of the Year". Osama bin Laden only wasn't Person of the Year because Time chickened out. ObPythonContent: Guido for PotY next year? ;-) From stestagg at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 10:14:20 2016 From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 15:14:20 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: <20161207145609.GE2323@unequivocal.eu> References: <20161207145609.GE2323@unequivocal.eu> Message-ID: I think we submitted Guido for consideration, but did so using a byte string rather than Unicode, so the submission got rejected ;) On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 15:05, Jon Ribbens wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 02:15:27PM +0000, Daniel Pope wrote: > > Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately > quoting > > Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump? > > I don't see why not; "Time Person of the Year" doesn't mean that the > recipient is a "good person", it just means they've had a significant > effect on the events of that year. Adolf Hitler was "Person of the > Year". Osama bin Laden only wasn't Person of the Year because Time > chickened out. > > ObPythonContent: Guido for PotY next year? ;-) > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mauve at mauveweb.co.uk Wed Dec 7 10:31:35 2016 From: mauve at mauveweb.co.uk (Daniel Pope) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 15:31:35 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Right, so we're in the ridiculous situation where there are stricter standards in what can be posted to this ML than who can be US president. On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 14:30 Hansel Dunlop, wrote: > It could certainly be violated by embodying his behaviour ?\_(?)_/? > > h > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Daniel Pope wrote: > > Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting > Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump? > > > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 13:21 Andy Robinson, wrote: > > I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd > years. Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away. > > I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List", > that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code > of Conduct, and must be respected. > > To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby > propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. > Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. > Suggestions welcome on this thread > > Be pure. Be vigilant. Behave! > > - Andy > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > > -- > > Hansel > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ntoll at ntoll.org Wed Dec 7 10:32:36 2016 From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 15:32:36 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..? In-Reply-To: References: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> Message-ID: Afternoon... Async related stuff was something I thought about mentioning to the person who asked me (but it was made clear these were non-technical things they wanted to watch) so dropped it. Now that micro:bit is both slowing down and speeding up in different ways I'm trying to find time to work on my DHT project (drogulus) and migrate it to the new syntax. Who knows, I may even get it to actually work. ;-) N. On 07/12/16 12:20, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey >> wrote: >> >> Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch >> out for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..? > > For my part, I think there?s a lot of really interesting work going > on in the asynchronous networking space in Python, both in terms of > the literal work people are doing but also in terms of the technical > discussions being had. > > The most interesting single technical development in this space was > probably the introduction of the ?async? and ?await? keywords in > Python 3.5. Even though these followed on from the introduction of > asyncio, they accidentally provided a much richer API that allowed > for experiments like David Beazley?s curio[0] project. This has > managed to provide a new lease on life for the development of > protocol stacks and APIs for asynchrony. > > There?s lots of great work going on in this space, and it?s really > refreshing to see Python become one of the foremost languages for > investigating new methods of managing concurrency. > > While I?m here I?ll also note PyPy 3.5 as being a huge project that > I?m really looking forward to. PyPy has been one of the biggest > reasons for me to still be Python 2.7-first, so having an opportunity > to have a really fast interpreter with Python 3.5?s features is a > huge thrill. > > Cory > > > [0]: https://github.com/dabeaz/curio > _______________________________________________ python-uk mailing > list python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From thomas at kluyver.me.uk Wed Dec 7 10:43:10 2016 From: thomas at kluyver.me.uk (Thomas Kluyver) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 15:43:10 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1481125390.633984.811482025.31E9C5A4@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 03:31 PM, Daniel Pope wrote: > Right, so we're in the ridiculous situation where there are stricter > standards in what can be posted to this ML than who can be US > president. This year has certainly generated a whole lot of ridiculous situations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Wed Dec 7 11:09:44 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:09:44 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: > and as we know, only Sith deal in absolutes Are you absolutely sure about that? Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lukasaoz at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 11:12:09 2016 From: lukasaoz at gmail.com (Cory Benfield (Lukasa)) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:12:09 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 7 Dec 2016, at 16:09, Steve Holden wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) > wrote: > and as we know, only Sith deal in absolutes > > Are you absolutely sure about that? Don?t ask me, ask Obi Wan: https://youtu.be/kVu_yMEhUfM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walker_s at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 7 11:14:04 2016 From: walker_s at hotmail.co.uk (S Walker) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:14:04 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) > > wrote: > > and as we know, only Sith deal in absolutes > > > Are you absolutely sure about that? I am. Yours, Darth SW From russel at winder.org.uk Wed Dec 7 11:16:15 2016 From: russel at winder.org.uk (Russel Winder) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 16:16:15 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1481127375.7646.3.camel@winder.org.uk> On Wed, 2016-12-07 at 14:05 +0000, Steve Holden wrote: > But perhaps an apt threat to anyone who gets out of hand. I'm sure we > can > find room for a Comfy Chair somewhere when someone needs a Good > Talking To. > ?S s/Chair/Cushion/ -- Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: russel at winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From andy at reportlab.com Wed Dec 7 12:03:59 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 17:03:59 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 December 2016 at 16:14, S Walker wrote: > Darth SW Hey, Darth, fancy being our Brexit negotiator? Or military liaison to the US of A? From walker_s at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 7 12:13:47 2016 From: walker_s at hotmail.co.uk (S Walker) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 17:13:47 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, this year has been all too evil for me. 2016: Disowned by Sith. S On 07/12/16 17:03, Andy Robinson wrote: > On 7 December 2016 at 16:14, S Walker wrote: >> Darth SW > > Hey, Darth, fancy being our Brexit negotiator? Or military liaison to > the US of A? > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > . > From jjl at pobox.com Wed Dec 7 16:14:55 2016 From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 21:14:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-15?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London?= =?iso-8859-15?q?_up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife in the first place. On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Marcelo Elias Del Valle wrote: > Hello, > > This is my first message to this list and I am sad the first message is not > about python... But as you're talking about code of conduct, I would like > to suggest something that has worked very well for me in other groups I > participate. > Personally, I don't like CoC much, because it's easy to turn it bureaucracy > and make people not comfortable in giving their opinions, which is not > usually what we desire. Absence of rules, though, is always bad. From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 7 17:52:05 2016 From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 22:52:05 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/12/2016 13:20, Andy Robinson wrote: > I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd > years. Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away. > > I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List", > that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code > of Conduct, and must be respected. > > To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby > propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. > Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. > Suggestions welcome on this thread > > Be pure. Be vigilant. Behave! > > - Andy > No chance. I don't accept anything from flaming Northerners, what with their dark, satanic mills everywhere and not a blade of green grass to be seen anywhere. Us Southerners, especially the autistic ones like wot I am, reserve the right to throw our toys out of the pram occasionally. And more importantly, our beer is vastly superior to yours, so up yours :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence From lursty at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 04:52:08 2016 From: lursty at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Gilberto_Gon=C3=A7alves?=) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:52:08 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: > > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, > I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not > allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think > simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on > that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife > in the first place. I agree, even thought this wouldn't solve the root cause, at least it would mitigate the issue a bit. On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:14 PM, John Lee wrote: > Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that > there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. > > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, > I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not > allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think > simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on > that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife > in the first place. > > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Marcelo Elias Del Valle wrote: > > Hello, >> >> This is my first message to this list and I am sad the first message is >> not >> about python... But as you're talking about code of conduct, I would like >> to suggest something that has worked very well for me in other groups I >> participate. >> Personally, I don't like CoC much, because it's easy to turn it >> bureaucracy >> and make people not comfortable in giving their opinions, which is not >> usually what we desire. Absence of rules, though, is always bad. >> > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mvallebr at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 04:57:43 2016 From: mvallebr at gmail.com (Marcelo Elias Del Valle) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:57:43 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: It gives the impression to me that being offensive pays off. But I am new here, I don't have a strong opinion. On 8 Dec 2016 09:53, "Gilberto Gon?alves" wrote: > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, >> I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not >> allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think >> simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on >> that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife >> in the first place. > > > I agree, even thought this wouldn't solve the root cause, at least it > would mitigate the issue a bit. > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:14 PM, John Lee wrote: > >> Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that >> there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. >> >> So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads >> myself, I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed >> is to not allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think >> simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on >> that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife >> in the first place. >> >> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Marcelo Elias Del Valle wrote: >> >> Hello, >>> >>> This is my first message to this list and I am sad the first message is >>> not >>> about python... But as you're talking about code of conduct, I would like >>> to suggest something that has worked very well for me in other groups I >>> participate. >>> Personally, I don't like CoC much, because it's easy to turn it >>> bureaucracy >>> and make people not comfortable in giving their opinions, which is not >>> usually what we desire. Absence of rules, though, is always bad. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesbroadhead at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 08:29:45 2016 From: jamesbroadhead at gmail.com (James Broadhead) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 13:29:45 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 7 December 2016 at 21:14, John Lee wrote: > Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that > there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. > > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, > I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not > allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think > simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on > that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife > in the first place. Seconded. This issue seems to be the largest source of disharmony by a wide margin, and I'd be in favour of writing up a specific rule, as there seem to be many different interpretations of the status quo. General options: 1./ No recruitment messages of any kind 2./ Only developers may post recruitment messages (they must have some association with the position) 3./ Any recruitment messages are allowed Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so much ire. As Steve pointed out, enforcement would be the next problem -- I've seen this over and over on forums. Perhaps a large-ish number of list mods (10 or so), and discourage enforcement-en-mass? Finally, we need to advertise the CoC & any new rules clearly to new subscribers and/or first-time posters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andy at reportlab.com Thu Dec 8 09:00:42 2016 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 10:00:42 -0400 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 8 December 2016 at 09:29, James Broadhead wrote: > Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote > positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so > much ire. It seems to me that the real issue was a tiny number of list members being rude to or about Sophie Hendley. But if we are to consider changing our policy on this, then we need to find out what the 720 subscribers think. I would not want to cut that many people off from a relevant and interesting future job offer if less than 1% of them are grumbling about recruiters. How many people would need to express an opinion to warrant changing things? - Andy From stestagg at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 09:06:28 2016 From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 14:06:28 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: I agree with John While recruitment emails don't bother me directly, the debates around allowing them are getting quite repetitive. My vote goes on a no job adverts policy. It's not clear to me that enforcement will be difficult. Do we really think that the pyuk recruiters will not honour this? As a side note, it would be great if http://pythonjobs.github.io/ gained some more maintainers and became the go-to place for job postings. Steve On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 13:30, James Broadhead wrote: > On 7 December 2016 at 21:14, John Lee wrote: > > Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that > there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. > > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, > I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not > allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think > simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on > that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife > in the first place. > > > Seconded. This issue seems to be the largest source of disharmony by a > wide margin, and I'd be in favour of writing up a specific rule, as there > seem to be many different interpretations of the status quo. > > General options: > 1./ No recruitment messages of any kind > 2./ Only developers may post recruitment messages (they must have some > association with the position) > 3./ Any recruitment messages are allowed > > Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote > positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so > much ire. > > As Steve pointed out, enforcement would be the next problem -- I've seen > this over and over on forums. Perhaps a large-ish number of list mods (10 > or so), and discourage enforcement-en-mass? > > > Finally, we need to advertise the CoC & any new rules clearly to new > subscribers and/or first-time posters. > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From petegraham1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 09:16:56 2016 From: petegraham1 at gmail.com (Pete Graham) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:16:56 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: How about every job posting to this mailing list has to contain an accompanying link to the full job ad on http://pythonjobs.github.io/? If someone forgets we can politely remind them. Pete On 8 December 2016 at 14:06, Stestagg wrote: > I agree with John > > While recruitment emails don't bother me directly, the debates around > allowing them are getting quite repetitive. > > My vote goes on a no job adverts policy. It's not clear to me that > enforcement will be difficult. Do we really think that the pyuk recruiters > will not honour this? > > As a side note, it would be great if http://pythonjobs.github.io/ gained > some more maintainers and became the go-to place for job postings. > > Steve > On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 13:30, James Broadhead > wrote: > >> On 7 December 2016 at 21:14, John Lee wrote: >> >> Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that >> there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. >> >> So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads >> myself, I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed >> is to not allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think >> simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on >> that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife >> in the first place. >> >> >> Seconded. This issue seems to be the largest source of disharmony by a >> wide margin, and I'd be in favour of writing up a specific rule, as there >> seem to be many different interpretations of the status quo. >> >> General options: >> 1./ No recruitment messages of any kind >> 2./ Only developers may post recruitment messages (they must have some >> association with the position) >> 3./ Any recruitment messages are allowed >> >> Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote >> positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so >> much ire. >> >> As Steve pointed out, enforcement would be the next problem -- I've seen >> this over and over on forums. Perhaps a large-ish number of list mods (10 >> or so), and discourage enforcement-en-mass? >> >> >> Finally, we need to advertise the CoC & any new rules clearly to new >> subscribers and/or first-time posters. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ian at spendnetwork.com Thu Dec 8 09:19:10 2016 From: ian at spendnetwork.com (Ian Makgill) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 15:19:10 +0100 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: +1 for that. Then if you don't want job ads you can filter out content with that url. On 8 December 2016 at 15:16, Pete Graham wrote: > How about every job posting to this mailing list has to contain an > accompanying link to the full job ad on http://pythonjobs.github.io/? If > someone forgets we can politely remind them. > > Pete > > On 8 December 2016 at 14:06, Stestagg wrote: > >> I agree with John >> >> While recruitment emails don't bother me directly, the debates around >> allowing them are getting quite repetitive. >> >> My vote goes on a no job adverts policy. It's not clear to me that >> enforcement will be difficult. Do we really think that the pyuk recruiters >> will not honour this? >> >> As a side note, it would be great if http://pythonjobs.github.io/ gained >> some more maintainers and became the go-to place for job postings. >> >> Steve >> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 13:30, James Broadhead >> wrote: >> >>> On 7 December 2016 at 21:14, John Lee wrote: >>> >>> Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that >>> there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. >>> >>> So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads >>> myself, I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed >>> is to not allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think >>> simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on >>> that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife >>> in the first place. >>> >>> >>> Seconded. This issue seems to be the largest source of disharmony by a >>> wide margin, and I'd be in favour of writing up a specific rule, as there >>> seem to be many different interpretations of the status quo. >>> >>> General options: >>> 1./ No recruitment messages of any kind >>> 2./ Only developers may post recruitment messages (they must have some >>> association with the position) >>> 3./ Any recruitment messages are allowed >>> >>> Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote >>> positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so >>> much ire. >>> >>> As Steve pointed out, enforcement would be the next problem -- I've seen >>> this over and over on forums. Perhaps a large-ish number of list mods (10 >>> or so), and discourage enforcement-en-mass? >>> >>> >>> Finally, we need to advertise the CoC & any new rules clearly to new >>> subscribers and/or first-time posters. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> python-uk mailing list >>> python-uk at python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walker_s at hotmail.co.uk Thu Dec 8 09:20:30 2016 From: walker_s at hotmail.co.uk (S Walker) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:20:30 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?windows-1252?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_Londo?= =?windows-1252?q?n_up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: I've read comments on here supporting there being job postings as they are of use to the community (I think all of us like being able to afford to eat, right?), and I'd tend to agree with that. Maybe a better idea would be to put guidelines for job posting (e.g. not more than x frequency, containing at least y details). Frankly if we didn't have people complaining about the job postings each time they were made they'd be responsible for a negligible amount of list traffic. Thanks, S On 08/12/16 14:06, Stestagg wrote: > I agree with John > > While recruitment emails don't bother me directly, the debates around > allowing them are getting quite repetitive. > > My vote goes on a no job adverts policy. It's not clear to me that > enforcement will be difficult. Do we really think that the pyuk > recruiters will not honour this? > > As a side note, it would be great if http://pythonjobs.github.io/ gained > some more maintainers and became the go-to place for job postings. > > Steve > On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 at 13:30, James Broadhead > wrote: > > On 7 December 2016 at 21:14, John Lee > wrote: > > Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in > saying that there have never been sharp words on any subject > EXCEPT recruiters. > > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job > ads myself, I think we should consider the possibility that all > that's needed is to not allow job ads (or not allow recruiters > if you like -- but I think simplicity is a virtue here). Then > rogue job ads can be responded to on that strictly technical > basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife in the first > place. > > > Seconded. This issue seems to be the largest source of disharmony by > a wide margin, and I'd be in favour of writing up a specific rule, > as there seem to be many different interpretations of the status quo. > > General options: > 1./ No recruitment messages of any kind > 2./ Only developers may post recruitment messages (they must have > some association with the position) > 3./ Any recruitment messages are allowed > > Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to > promote positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem > to trigger so much ire. > > As Steve pointed out, enforcement would be the next problem -- I've > seen this over and over on forums. Perhaps a large-ish number of > list mods (10 or so), and discourage enforcement-en-mass? > > > Finally, we need to advertise the CoC & any new rules clearly to new > subscribers and/or first-time posters. > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > From sparks.m at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 09:26:54 2016 From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:26:54 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Andy, Speaking as one of the few who didn't say anything - because the ad wasn't relevant to me at the time - I personally see little reason to change the policy of allowing job ads on here. A handful of people complain once or twice a year, and the upshot is more posts and traffic as a result of the complaint that all the job postings in the past 9/10 months. There's so few ads posted, listing the dates: Dec 6th - Sophie - uproar Nov 14th - Adam - no comment by others Nov 7th - Sophie - no comment by others Nov 1st - Daniel - no comment by others Oct 25th - Alastair - handful comments (criticising company's choice of tech) Oct 24th - Oisin - no comment by others Sep 29th - A.Grandi - no comment by others Sep 16th - Fabio - no comment by others Sep 12th - Alastair - no comment by others Sep 7th - Niamh - no comment by others Sept 6th - Steve - no comment by others Aug 31 - Ben - no comment by others Aug 31 - Sophie - no comment by others Aug 26 - Isambard - no comment by others Jul 13 - Sophie - no comment by others Jul 12 - David - no comment by others Jul 7 - Sam - no comment by others Jul 7 - Sophie - no comment by others Jul 6 - Sophie - no comment by others Apr 13 - Alan - no substantial comment by others I got bored at that point :-) There was discussion on Sep 2nd about this, with the consensus being "revisit if it gets too spammy". The posts on the list tend to be even announcements and job postings. Perhaps worth noting that those who have posted multiple jobs appear to have also participated in other discussions too. *Personally* I think it's over inflated. The data says we're not inundated with job postings, and the fact that the same people are posting them suggests to me that people are getting jobs as a result of this. (I could be wrong on that - given it's supposition) As for code of conduct, I work with cubs every week who are 8-10.5 years old and they would all understand that no matter how lighthearted, everyone piling onto simple a mistake can be upsetting. And that's before the dreadful comments that some people have made. IMO, Leave it as is, and ask people just for a bit of common politeness. The list description says "there will be job ads". it's said that for years (decades?) Anyone who doesn't like it doesn't actually have to join. (and if they can't tolerate a high peak of 5 ads in a month - not even this month, perhaps they need to re-evaluate their response) Anyway, that's my tuppenceworth. Michael. On 8 December 2016 at 14:00, Andy Robinson wrote: > On 8 December 2016 at 09:29, James Broadhead > wrote: > > > Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote > > positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so > > much ire. > > It seems to me that the real issue was a tiny number of list members > being rude to or about Sophie Hendley. > > But if we are to consider changing our policy on this, then we need to > find out what the 720 subscribers think. I would not want to cut > that many people off from a relevant and interesting future job offer > if less than 1% of them are grumbling about recruiters. How many > people would need to express an opinion to warrant changing things? > > - Andy > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dw+python-uk at hmmz.org Thu Dec 8 09:35:27 2016 From: dw+python-uk at hmmz.org (David Wilson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:35:27 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20161208143527.GA13345@k3> On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:20:30PM +0000, S Walker wrote: > Frankly if we didn't have people complaining about the job postings > each time they were made I suspect that is a rule everyone could get behind. :) > they'd be responsible for a negligible amount of list traffic. Ignoring discussions of job postings and meeting announcements, the only two really useful things IMHO that hit python-uk, what other purpose does the list continue to serve? Back in the day, lists like this would be brimming with news of advocacy, success stories and suchlike, but Python has long since become mainstream. If we legislate against job postings, it seems there isn't much legitimate content that remains relevant to this list. David From daniele at vurt.org Thu Dec 8 09:41:25 2016 From: daniele at vurt.org (Daniele Procida) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:41:25 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?up_to_=A395k?= In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20161208144125.2080362280@mail.wservices.ch> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016, Michael wrote: >IMO, Leave it as is, and ask people just for a bit of common politeness. >The list description says "there will be job ads". it's said that for years >(decades?) Anyone who doesn't like it doesn't actually have to join. (and >if they can't tolerate a high peak of 5 ads in a month - not even this >month, perhaps they need to re-evaluate their response) I agree. If we change anything it should be to make the list more welcoming, not to show people (who I think have left in any case) that they can get what they want by being aggressive. Daniele From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 8 13:10:41 2016 From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 18:10:41 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] =?utf-8?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London_up_to?= =?utf-8?b?IMKjOTVr?= In-Reply-To: References: <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 08/12/2016 14:00, Andy Robinson wrote: > On 8 December 2016 at 09:29, James Broadhead wrote: > >> Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote >> positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so >> much ire. > > It seems to me that the real issue was a tiny number of list members > being rude to or about Sophie Hendley. > > But if we are to consider changing our policy on this, then we need to > find out what the 720 subscribers think. I would not want to cut > that many people off from a relevant and interesting future job offer > if less than 1% of them are grumbling about recruiters. How many > people would need to express an opinion to warrant changing things? > > - Andy > Please leave things alone. I regard this entire thread as a storm in a thimble. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence From ed.hartley at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 13:44:30 2016 From: ed.hartley at gmail.com (Edward Hartley) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 18:44:30 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition In-Reply-To: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1481117795.602891.811345313.4862E518@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: > On 7 Dec 2016, at 13:36, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Andy Robinson wrote: >> To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I hereby >> propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve. > > I don't think anybody expected that! > >> Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement. >> Suggestions welcome on this thread > > Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language > features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may > be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them > using while instead. And have to prove they are not a witch by showing they don't float when pitched into the Ouse? > > Thomas > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk From jjl at pobox.com Fri Dec 9 15:57:41 2016 From: jjl at pobox.com (jjl at pobox.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 20:57:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-15?q?2_Principle_Engineer_roles_in_London?= =?iso-8859-15?q?_up_to______=A395k?= In-Reply-To: <20161208143527.GA13345@k3> References: <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <1481116337.597627.811322681.3A956C88@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20161208143527.GA13345@k3> Message-ID: > On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:20:30PM +0000, S Walker wrote: > > If we legislate against job postings, it seems there isn't much > legitimate content that remains relevant to this list. That's a very good point... (though there are postings re events &c.) Also, I think a diversity of places to post job ads is good (despite downsides). Re incentivizing bad behaviour (I think somebody else said that): agree, but since this seems to have been the sole source of strife here for twelve or more years I'm not sure that's important in practice. From jjl at pobox.com Fri Dec 9 16:13:14 2016 From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 21:13:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [python-uk] Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Daniele Procida wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > >> I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of >> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process >> for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? > > Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too. > > As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by . > > If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described there are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to reconsider whether they can continue to participate here. I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were asked to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book "Predictably Irrational" I think). It was found those students cheated less than a control group. But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code (according to Ariely, at the time)! The hypothesis is that we need reminding about these things to behave better -- and the code itself is not so important. From jjl at pobox.com Fri Dec 9 16:27:43 2016 From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 21:27:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..? In-Reply-To: References: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: > There?s lots of great work going on in this space, and it?s really > refreshing to see Python become one of the foremost languages for > investigating new methods of managing concurrency. Hi Cory When you say "investigating new methods", do you mean new-to-the-world, or new-to-practitioners (or to some subset of practitioners, or some ecosystem)? If the former, do you have citations? I don't think of Python as a CS research language exactly -- except that pseudocode is often Python, or Python-flavoured -- nor am I aware of what async things had their start in Python -- even as far as 'pragmatics' goes. From steve at holdenweb.com Fri Dec 9 16:49:47 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 21:49:47 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:13 PM, John Lee wrote: > I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were asked > to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book "Predictably > Irrational" I think). It was found those students cheated less than a > control group. But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code (according to > Ariely, at the time)! The hypothesis is that we need reminding about these > things to behave better -- and the code itself is not so important. > In which case if more people did what Daniele did, and called out unacceptable behaviour, we would get reminded but only after something at least mildly unacceptable had happened. Many mailing lists (used to) publish a monthly FAQ, a practice neither python-list not this one has ever adopted. I wonder if this might be a low-bandwidth way to discourage high-bandwidth incidents? Of course this solution is now about thirty-five years old, and I realise you young kids like the shiny we stuff, but it might actually give us an impersonal way of setting everyone's expectations before things get out of hand. If they do so quickly, we can always take the sting out of any response by pointing to a web copy of hte FAW and saying :you may not have yet been am member of the list long enough to see this." After all, we aren't looking to discourage *people* here, but behaviours. regards Steve Steve Holden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at holdenweb.com Fri Dec 9 16:51:18 2016 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 21:51:18 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: Sorry, you'll just have to apply the inverse dyslexia filter to my previous message. As I've observed in other fora, it's been a long week. S Steve Holden On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:49 PM, Steve Holden wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:13 PM, John Lee wrote: > >> I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were >> asked to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book >> "Predictably Irrational" I think). It was found those students cheated >> less than a control group. But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code >> (according to Ariely, at the time)! The hypothesis is that we need >> reminding about these things to behave better -- and the code itself is not >> so important. >> > > In which case if more people did what Daniele did, and called out > unacceptable behaviour, we would get reminded but only after something at > least mildly unacceptable had happened. > > Many mailing lists (used to) publish a monthly FAQ, a practice neither > python-list not this one has ever adopted. I wonder if this might be a > low-bandwidth way to discourage high-bandwidth incidents? > > Of course this solution is now about thirty-five years old, and I realise > you young kids like the shiny we stuff, but it might actually give us an > impersonal way of setting everyone's expectations before things get out of > hand. If they do so quickly, we can always take the sting out of any > response by pointing to a web copy of hte FAW and saying :you may not have > yet been am member of the list long enough to see this." > > After all, we aren't looking to discourage *people* here, but behaviours. > > regards > Steve > > > Steve Holden > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjl at pobox.com Fri Dec 9 19:17:48 2016 From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 00:17:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [python-uk] Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: References: <36b90ff0-ae1b-a4f6-77b3-22dd2458b518@ntoll.org> <1481030401.20679.0.camel@gammascience.co.uk> <38777f31-7c4f-f1a1-2f86-288f1746912c@ntoll.org> <20161206144143.GE13262@k3> <20161207041036.1074316157@mail.wservices.ch> <496A43CE-B702-4C50-997C-BAB833FA565E@gmail.com> <20161207123707.1657311283@mail.wservices.ch> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Dec 2016, Steve Holden wrote: > On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:13 PM, John Lee wrote: > >> I remember Dan Ariely reporting research in which some students were asked >> to sign the MIT honour code before taking a test (in his book "Predictably >> Irrational" I think). It was found those students cheated less than a >> control group. But, MIT doesn't *have* an honour code (according to >> Ariely, at the time)! The hypothesis is that we need reminding about these >> things to behave better -- and the code itself is not so important. >> > > In which case if more people did what Daniele did, and called out > unacceptable behaviour, we would get reminded but only after something at > least mildly unacceptable had happened. Yeah. Some of that is inevitable I suppose. FWIW I have to admit I always cringe just a bit at "unacceptable" in this sort of context. I prefer "bad". Less authoritarian, but clear (my philosophy: the truth is out there, but it's hard to find, and we might always be wrong). IIUC some people on this list genuinely think being a little disrespectful here to recruiters is the right thing to do when they are perceived to be being disrespectful themselves. Though I think that's a mistake, as usual I have to try and remember it might be ME who's mistaken, that merely telling people they are mistaken is, and should be, unpersuasive, and so trying to force them to behave my way is in the long run ineffective and possibly harmful. (hope that doesn't sound like a personal slight, not intended) > Many mailing lists (used to) publish a monthly FAQ, a practice neither > python-list not this one has ever adopted. I wonder if this might be a > low-bandwidth way to discourage high-bandwidth incidents? Maybe so > Of course this solution is now about thirty-five years old, and I realise > you young kids like the shiny we stuff, but it might actually give us an > impersonal way of setting everyone's expectations before things get out of > hand. If they do so quickly, we can always take the sting out of any > response by pointing to a web copy of hte FAW and saying :you may not have > yet been am member of the list long enough to see this." On the principle above, it could just say "Be good" <0.5 wink> > After all, we aren't looking to discourage *people* here, but behaviours. +1 From lukasaoz at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 10:07:14 2016 From: lukasaoz at gmail.com (Cory Benfield (Lukasa)) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 15:07:14 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..? In-Reply-To: References: <7e57f16a-2d68-8aef-3c5b-3b84f4a6c3f9@ntoll.org> Message-ID: <31B932FF-E138-4841-B68F-85323338EAB2@gmail.com> > On 9 Dec 2016, at 21:27, John Lee wrote: > > When you say "investigating new methods", do you mean new-to-the-world, or new-to-practitioners (or to some subset of practitioners, or some ecosystem)? If the former, do you have citations? I don't think of Python as a CS research language exactly -- except that pseudocode is often Python, or Python-flavoured -- nor am I aware of what async things had their start in Python -- even as far as 'pragmatics' goes. ?New to the world? is a high bar, and as I?m not a computer scientist I?d be very reluctant to want to make the claim that any idea met that bar. I know they do, but I know enough to know that I don?t know enough to make that judgement. In this context, I mostly mean testing the boundaries of certain tools for managing asynchrony. The example I?m thinking of mostly here is the ?async/await? keywords added in Python 3.5, which were added as a very literal mechanism for enabling the kind of event-loop parallelism that asyncio uses, with its explicit event loops and non-blocking I/O APIs and Futures. This is the model of async/await that is used most commonly in high-level dynamic languages like Python and Javascript (in no small part, I suspect, due to the success of Javascript). However, students of programming languages will note that the async/await keywords grew out of C#, which doesn?t use event-loops directly but instead uses ?task-based concurrency? with an implicit task runner. Thanks to the very general specification of async/await as language tools in Python, and thanks to the fact that they are fully accessible from Python code, it has been possible to investigate non-event-loop-based models for using these keywords. One such example would be Dave Beazley?s curio project[0], which is not entirely unlike the C# task-based concurrency model retrofitted on top of the Python standard library using the async/await keywords. This is of course a facet of a more general truth, which is that Python?s relative accessibility means that features that find their way into Python often get extended in interesting and surprising ways. They?re not necessarily groundbreaking, but they are evolved and played with much more (ask the PyPy team!). [0]: https://github.com/dabeaz/curio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wprins at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 04:45:10 2016 From: wprins at gmail.com (Walter Prins) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:45:10 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python Training - trainer required Message-ID: Hi all, I've been approached by www.bsgplc.co.uk about delivering Introduction/Advanced training during January 2017 in London. I'm not available and probably not the best person for this anyway, so I was wondering whether anyone here would be interested and/or whether it'd be OK to point them to this mailing list directly? (Given the recent firestorm sparked by a recruiter posting I'm almost afraid to even ask the question...) Thanks, Walter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at trivialbusiness.co.uk Tue Dec 13 04:53:51 2016 From: john at trivialbusiness.co.uk (John Crickett) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:53:51 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python Training - trainer required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would very strongly suggest you all avoid this company. Regards, John Follow me on Twitter Connect with me on LinkedIn On 13 December 2016 at 09:45, Walter Prins wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been approached by www.bsgplc.co.uk about delivering > Introduction/Advanced training during January 2017 in London. I'm not > available and probably not the best person for this anyway, so I was > wondering whether anyone here would be interested and/or whether it'd be OK > to point them to this mailing list directly? (Given the recent firestorm > sparked by a recruiter posting I'm almost afraid to even ask the > question...) > > Thanks, > > Walter > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alistair.broomhead at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 06:16:03 2016 From: alistair.broomhead at gmail.com (Alistair Broomhead) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 11:16:03 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python Training - trainer required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For any particular reason? On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, 09:54 John Crickett, wrote: > I would very strongly suggest you all avoid this company. > > Regards, John > > Follow me on Twitter > Connect with me on LinkedIn > > On 13 December 2016 at 09:45, Walter Prins wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've been approached by www.bsgplc.co.uk about delivering > Introduction/Advanced training during January 2017 in London. I'm not > available and probably not the best person for this anyway, so I was > wondering whether anyone here would be interested and/or whether it'd be OK > to point them to this mailing list directly? (Given the recent firestorm > sparked by a recruiter posting I'm almost afraid to even ask the > question...) > > Thanks, > > Walter > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at trivialbusiness.co.uk Tue Dec 13 06:45:46 2016 From: john at trivialbusiness.co.uk (John Crickett) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 11:45:46 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python Training - trainer required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alistair, I'd prefer to keep the particulars out of the public domain. Feel free to contact me confidentially off-list. However I would suggest anyone considering it do their own careful due diligence on the company, it's director and the claims on it's website, that might give you an indication of how much you can trust the person behind it. Regards, John Follow me on Twitter Connect with me on LinkedIn On 13 December 2016 at 11:16, Alistair Broomhead < alistair.broomhead at gmail.com> wrote: > For any particular reason? > > On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, 09:54 John Crickett, > wrote: > >> I would very strongly suggest you all avoid this company. >> >> Regards, John >> >> Follow me on Twitter >> Connect with me on LinkedIn >> >> On 13 December 2016 at 09:45, Walter Prins wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I've been approached by www.bsgplc.co.uk about delivering >> Introduction/Advanced training during January 2017 in London. I'm not >> available and probably not the best person for this anyway, so I was >> wondering whether anyone here would be interested and/or whether it'd be OK >> to point them to this mailing list directly? (Given the recent firestorm >> sparked by a recruiter posting I'm almost afraid to even ask the >> question...) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Walter >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-uk mailing list >> python-uk at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk >> > > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at insidetheedit.com Mon Dec 19 06:26:22 2016 From: chris at insidetheedit.com (Chris Meachin) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:26:22 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] URGENT: Python / Django / Stripe Dev Needed Message-ID: We are looking for a pragmatic Python/Django developer for a real life video tutorial subscription business (www.insidetheedit.com) with a few thousand subscribers. Interest in eCommerce would be advantageous but not required. The business has been operating for 3 years, and we?re looking for somebody able to provide technical support and development services ongoing. For the right candidate, this could form 5-10 days work per month, on a reasonably flexible basis (therefore could be managed around other projects or work). Initially, we need around 5 days urgent work to upgrade the Stripe payment system used within the site to process customer transactions: changes are required to the platform before the end of 2016. Please contact Chris if you?re interested, or know somebody that might be! chris at insidetheedit.com Experience wanted in the following AWS technologies: + EC2 + RDS + S3 & Access Management + CloudFront & URL Signing (boto or botocore) + deployment automation with fabric, ansible, vagrant, docker or similar technologies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prof.math at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 05:59:02 2016 From: prof.math at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?c2VydGHDpyBj?=) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 13:59:02 +0300 Subject: [python-uk] Django Developer Nottinghamshire UK at PrimarySite Message-ID: About PrimarySite Location: Newark, Nottinghamshire UK We are the leading and fastest-growing provider of websites to primary schools in the UK. With more than a decade's experience and knowledge of primary education, we have created more than 5,000 websites to help schools communicate more effectively with parents and their whole school communities, raise their profiles and save valuable staff time. We would like recruit a further Django developer to expand our product development team. We maintain and build features for primary schools, enabling our customers to update their websites and communicate with parents with minimal effort. >From large, complex multi-site projects to micro services platforms and custom apps, we have lots of interesting, creative and technical challenges to tackle. Your role will include: - Undertake development tasks using appropriate technologies - Follow the defined software development process adopted by the company - Pair program assigned task, if appropriate - Ensure that work is done to the highest standard, meeting PrimarySite's coding standards - Uphold collective team standards by code. Review colleagues? work and recommend changes where necessary - Ensure code is correctly managed though version control - Communicate both at a technical and non-technical level and share your development solutions with stakeholders - Ability and desire to learn - Ability to supply us with sugar based food groups - Ability to consume sugar based food groups See details at: Django Developer Nottinghamshire UK at PrimarySite -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at viner.tv Thu Dec 29 10:04:17 2016 From: tom at viner.tv (Tom Viner) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 15:04:17 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Announcing: New Years London Dojo Next Thursday 5th Message-ID: Hi all, Hope everyone's having a stellar holiday period. Take a moment between mince pies and Christmas puddings to sign up for next weeks Dojo. Our hosts for January will be Sohonet in... Soho. *Date: Thursday Jan 5th*. As usual we'll have pizza, drinks and all the group coding you can manage. Maybe a lightning talk too. Get your tickets while they're hot - especially if you've never come before, we really welcome everyone: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/london-python-code-dojo-season-8-episode-5-tickets-30720088612 Note, as we're using eventbrite these days, if you sign up and later find you can't attend, you can click the link in the email you get, and just hit the cancel order button. If you need any more information (or want to volunteer as a "cat herder" of a dojo), contact the team via Twitter: @ldnpydojo or via email team at ldnpydojo.org.uk We're also looking for new venues to host the dojo. Look forward to seeing you all next Thursday. Have a Happy New Year, Tom @tomviner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: