From carles at barrobes.com  Sat Dec  1 16:12:31 2012
From: carles at barrobes.com (carles at barrobes.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:12:31 -0500
Subject: [python-uk] LIVE Python Developer Vacancies
Message-ID: <19026.1354374751@barrobes.com>

This unattributed text is actually from the book "The Dilbert Principle" by Scott Adams.

I've read it several times and still find it hilarious.
Carles


On Fri 30/11/12  6:27 AM , Dougal Matthews <dougal85 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Copying from #python-uk on freenode about this thread.
> [11:12:10]  regarding the LIVE email thread...[11:12:12] 
> http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~sums/texts/engineer.html [1] [11:12:22] 
> see under "POWERS OF CONCENTRATION"
> 
> On 30 November 2012 11:06, xtian  wrote:
> Or just not moving due to being tired and shagged out after a
> particularly loud tweet. 
> 
> On 30 November 2012 10:36, Michael  wrote:
> On 30 November 2012 10:12, Matt Hamilton  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 30 Nov 2012, at 09:32, Adam Elliott wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I have various LIVE Python Developer vacancies!
> >
> > Good move. I've found dead Python developers to be a bit useless.
> 
> They wouldn't be dead, they'd be merely resting. Pining even.
> 
> Michael.
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk [2]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk [3]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk [4]
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~sums/texts/engineer.html
> [2] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
> [3] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
> [4]
> http://barrobes.com/parse.php?redirect=http://mail.python.org/mailman/listi
> nfo/python-uk
> 
Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/

From jason at potatolondon.com  Mon Dec  3 11:11:36 2012
From: jason at potatolondon.com (Jason Cartwright)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 10:11:36 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python/Django vacancies in London, Bristol
Message-ID: <CAHmdBg-Y-rji+gFZxkgrobrKM_PitXpx_jWuv6fkJCTxbYX_yA@mail.gmail.com>

Freelance & full-time Python & Django developers of varying experience
required to work on fun web projects. More information at:

http://p.ota.to/jobs/

You'll be working at our office in London, United Kingdom, developing
web tools and apps for huge audiences. Our clients include Google,
YouTube, News International, PayPal and other agencies such as BBH and
Mother.

We're particularly interested in applicants that can demonstrate an
understanding of front-end web development (often using jQuery and
Backbone with beautifully marked up HTML) as well as getting their
hands dirty in the Python-based backend.

Experience working in an agency environment also a plus.

Drop us a line for a cup of tea and a chat.

Kind regards,
Jason

--
Jason Cartwright

p.ota.to

From akumria at acm.org  Mon Dec  3 17:20:13 2012
From: akumria at acm.org (Anand Kumria)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:20:13 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] London Christmas Django meetup
Message-ID: <CAM1C4Gm_dgWh44Gbarh8S9Np-RKuJXhe5bGXkftJ6+Ao1tCagg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Our last two meetups have been a bit formal, what with talks an all
(if you'd like to give one, though, let us know!) so this month we
thought we'd return to our roots.

Just an informal gathering of like minded Djangonauts.

The Shooting Star does some decent food and they serve a range of
beverages - including the odd alcoholic one.

We have some tables booked in the Shooting Star, about a 10 minute
walk from Liverpool St. station.

Hope to see a lot of you there!

Cheers,
Anand

http://www.shootingstar-city.co.uk/
The Shooting Star
125-129 Middlesex Street
London, E1 7JF

--
?Don?t be sad because it?s over. Smile because it happened.? ? Dr. Seuss

From akumria at acm.org  Mon Dec  3 17:23:26 2012
From: akumria at acm.org (Anand Kumria)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:23:26 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] London Christmas Django meetup
In-Reply-To: <CAM1C4Gm_dgWh44Gbarh8S9Np-RKuJXhe5bGXkftJ6+Ao1tCagg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM1C4Gm_dgWh44Gbarh8S9Np-RKuJXhe5bGXkftJ6+Ao1tCagg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM1C4Gm2dispkEz0BKvwMmoG8W3w0v+FBmc4vavm+_1YzwMSpw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

In my eagerness I forgot to include the date:

Tuesday 11th December from 18:30 onwards.

Cheers,
Anand

On 3 December 2012 16:20, Anand Kumria <akumria at acm.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Our last two meetups have been a bit formal, what with talks an all
> (if you'd like to give one, though, let us know!) so this month we
> thought we'd return to our roots.
>
> Just an informal gathering of like minded Djangonauts.
>
> The Shooting Star does some decent food and they serve a range of
> beverages - including the odd alcoholic one.
>
> We have some tables booked in the Shooting Star, about a 10 minute
> walk from Liverpool St. station.
>
> Hope to see a lot of you there!
>
> Cheers,
> Anand
>
> http://www.shootingstar-city.co.uk/
> The Shooting Star
> 125-129 Middlesex Street
> London, E1 7JF
>
> --
> ?Don?t be sad because it?s over. Smile because it happened.? ? Dr. Seuss



-- 
?Don?t be sad because it?s over. Smile because it happened.? ? Dr. Seuss

From rachid.belaid at gmail.com  Mon Dec  3 22:20:24 2012
From: rachid.belaid at gmail.com (Rachid Belaid)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 21:20:24 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Salt Stack meetup drink in London
In-Reply-To: <CAGPh0j0nZNPdFieph9c+GLhoTXQjK9u-H4T7GEcyq+_J2_e=2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14932.1354226189@barrobes.com>
	<CAGPh0j3L3hnFjwhcnHc4KbRKsyDpLfrhvVEKoJcR4E-6ryAhJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEvNYXKWo2GqBh3sxQzCR1zy4J23rKoqzS=HCFjULd7qGC1dhg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEvNYX+3Qf9yDHA4hkxesTMt9Unq0QHZsKuoW2ehzA29tBe5uw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGPh0j0nZNPdFieph9c+GLhoTXQjK9u-H4T7GEcyq+_J2_e=2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGPh0j0-id_0aKLFrYLYzOVy_r6bNQxRecShAuVs+vUo5N_2bg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Folks,

I hope that the peoples who were interested in a Salt meetup are still up
to it.
Salt uses Python and ZeroMQ but rather than try and organise a (last
minute) Python meetup around this, we thought it would be nice to support
the ZeroMQ community who are having their first meetup this Wednesday.

It looks like it's going to be a good one, with a talk from Pieter Hintjens.

Details here:

http://www.meetup.com/ZeroMQLondon/events/92834202/

Thanks to Kris Saxton for helping with this.

R.


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Rachid Belaid <rachid.belaid at gmail.com>wrote:

> I know expensive..
>
> I really wanted to go but the price + plus not working .. it discouraged
> me.
>
> They are planning to do presentation at the Pycon US from what they told
> me.
>
> R.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Sebastian Pawlu? <
> sebastian.pawlus at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've just found how much for this training
>> http://saltstack.com/Services, (Total: US $2195.00) Damn!!!
>> _______________________________________________
>> python-uk mailing list
>> python-uk at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rach Belaid
> Director at Iron Braces Ltd
> Flat 9 240B Amhurst Road, London N16 7UL
> Phone : +44 75 008 660 84
> VAT : 114 2764 36
>
>


-- 
Rach Belaid
Director at Iron Braces Ltd
Flat 9 240B Amhurst Road, London N16 7UL
Phone : +44 75 008 660 84
VAT : 114 2764 36
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From tartley at tartley.com  Tue Dec  4 15:46:32 2012
From: tartley at tartley.com (Jonathan Hartley)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 14:46:32 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
Message-ID: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>

The last few weeks I've been thinking about the architectural pattern 
known as Clean, Onion, Hexagonal, or Ports'n'Adaptors 
<http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html> 
(http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html). 
I'm curious if many people are applying it in the Django world?

I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of our 
monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you think 
it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.

     Jonathan

-- 
Jonathan Hartley    tartley at tartley.com    http://tartley.com
Made of meat.       +44 7737 062 225       twitter/skype: tartley

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From lord.mauve at gmail.com  Tue Dec  4 16:36:42 2012
From: lord.mauve at gmail.com (Daniel Pope)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 15:36:42 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <CAGAAuhOQ0Bd5cYEyrpSFLpJMc4EyM9Wuk=jfnfZ9Obx=o2RVEQ@mail.gmail.com>

I go a little way in this direction. I rarely go as far as dependency
injection for business logic, but a good habit I picked up is to ensure
that my business logic is put in appropriate places somewhere other than
view functions, and all queries are kept with the models (ie. as Manager
methods), and all the presentation operations are template tags and
filters. That way the view contains little more than just connecting
queries to business logic to templates, which is useful when it comes to
understanding how an application was plumbed. In fact I've just used this
to quite rapidly port a Postgres backed Django app to entirely
ElasticSearch backed. Because I had defined my queries in terms of Manager
methods it wasn't hard to reimplement them one-by-one with equivalent
ElasticSearch searches. It would have been much harder if I'd littered
.filter()/.exclude() calls all over the place.

Something that was useful for that and slightly mitigates Django in this
regard is that the lazily-evaluated, sliceable QuerySet has become
something of a pattern, to the extent that you can sometimes sort of plug
QuerySet-like result objects, such as those from PyES, MongoEngine,
couchdb-python etc, into logic built around querysets. It also helps that
Django templates are very forgiving.

While interviewing for Python developers I found numerous candidates who
when presented with a generic OOP problem would immediately start writing
Django models, with the result that the solution exhibits exactly the kind
of dependency problems that article describes. For similar reasons, we now
have an application where the cryptically terse dictionary keys favoured by
hardcore MongoDB geeks leak everywhere, including template code and
client-side javascript.
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From menno at freshfoo.com  Tue Dec  4 18:46:59 2012
From: menno at freshfoo.com (Menno Smits)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:46:59 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>

On 2012-12-04 14:46, Jonathan Hartley wrote:

> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of our
> monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you think
> it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.

Since you mentioned this a few weeks back, I've been thinking about this 
approach a lot and doing a fair bit of background reading on the idea. I 
think it falls in to the brilliantly-obvious category, at least for any 
app of significant size. I plan to start using these ideas for my next 
big work project (not Django however). Previously, I've tended towards 
less flexible, harder-to-test, layered architectures.

My main concern is that I can see this approach resulting in a lot of 
extra code to support the interfaces between the core application and 
the peripheral components. This is probably worth the cost however. I 
guess I'll see once I use the approach in anger.

Menno


From chris at python.org  Wed Dec  5 08:33:41 2012
From: chris at python.org (Chris Withers)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 07:33:41 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com> <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>
Message-ID: <50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>

On 04/12/2012 17:46, Menno Smits wrote:
> On 2012-12-04 14:46, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>
>> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of our
>> monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you think
>> it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.
>
> Since you mentioned this a few weeks back, I've been thinking about this
> approach a lot and doing a fair bit of background reading on the idea. I
> think it falls in to the brilliantly-obvious category, at least for any
> app of significant size. I plan to start using these ideas for my next
> big work project (not Django however). Previously, I've tended towards
> less flexible, harder-to-test, layered architectures.

The biggest concern I have with this approach is that it appears to 
preclude taking advantage of any features of your storage layer. If your 
business objects have to not know or care about their underlying 
storage, how do you take advantage of nice relational queries, stand 
alone text indexing service or other specific features of the 
architecture you've chosen?

There's also the risk that you end up testing each bit (business, views, 
storage) in isolation and never get around to doing the automated 
integration testing required to ensure artifacts of implementation 
(*cough* bugs) don't cause problems across those boundaries...

That said, I'd love to see a project that's a good example of this, are 
there any around online in Python? The closest thing I can think of is 
the move to the component architecture that Zope did from v2 to v3; 
architecturally brilliant but actually killed off the platform...

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
             - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Wed Dec  5 14:08:08 2012
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:08:08 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com> <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>
	<50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
Message-ID: <7DF2CCDB-8403-4BD4-BAD8-60D3F3BF4701@voidspace.org.uk>


On 5 Dec 2012, at 07:33, Chris Withers <chris at python.org> wrote:

> On 04/12/2012 17:46, Menno Smits wrote:
>> On 2012-12-04 14:46, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>> 
>>> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of our
>>> monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you think
>>> it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.
>> 
>> Since you mentioned this a few weeks back, I've been thinking about this
>> approach a lot and doing a fair bit of background reading on the idea. I
>> think it falls in to the brilliantly-obvious category, at least for any
>> app of significant size. I plan to start using these ideas for my next
>> big work project (not Django however). Previously, I've tended towards
>> less flexible, harder-to-test, layered architectures.
> 
> The biggest concern I have with this approach is that it appears to preclude taking advantage of any features of your storage layer. If your business objects have to not know or care about their underlying storage, how do you take advantage of nice relational queries, stand alone text indexing service or other specific features of the architecture you've chosen?

I guess you still need to provide an abstraction for these features, even if only one backend supports the abstraction.

> 
> There's also the risk that you end up testing each bit (business, views, storage) in isolation and never get around to doing the automated integration testing required to ensure artifacts of implementation (*cough* bugs) don't cause problems across those boundaries...

Well, you need integration / acceptance / functional / end to end tests *anyway*.

Michael

> 
> That said, I'd love to see a project that's a good example of this, are there any around online in Python? The closest thing I can think of is the move to the component architecture that Zope did from v2 to v3; architecturally brilliant but actually killed off the platform...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Chris
> 
> -- 
> Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
>            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
> 


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From matth at netsight.co.uk  Wed Dec  5 14:19:59 2012
From: matth at netsight.co.uk (Matt Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:19:59 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com> <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>
	<50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
Message-ID: <20FB17D2-4EE8-4B35-9274-783781C67ADB@netsight.co.uk>


On 5 Dec 2012, at 07:33, Chris Withers wrote:

> That said, I'd love to see a project that's a good example of this, are there any around online in Python? The closest thing I can think of is the move to the component architecture that Zope did from v2 to v3; architecturally brilliant but actually killed off the platform?

Or more correctly, architecturally brilliant so much so that it was taken forth to be used outside the platform to such a degree that the rest of the platform (Zope 3) was refactored out as a bunch of standalone libraries (The Zope Toolkit).

To the OP: The Zope Component Architecture may cover quite a bit of what you want to do? take a look at zope.component and zope.interface (or read up here http://bluebream.zope.org/doc/1.0/manual/componentarchitecture.html)

-Matt

-- 
Matt Hamilton, Technical Director
Netsight Internet Solutions Limited
http://www.netsight.co.uk/matth
Tel: 0117 90 90 90 1 Ext. 15

Registered in England No. 3892180
Registered office: 40 Berkeley Square, Clifton, Bristol, BS8 1HU


From andy at reportlab.com  Wed Dec  5 14:28:56 2012
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 13:28:56 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com> <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>
	<50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
Message-ID: <CABjtAptX_dRGb1CumTiTYO8OsiX1Rk7mEtSU9Gu0fsUKyU8ewQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 December 2012 07:33, Chris Withers <chris at python.org> wrote:
> The closest thing I can think of is the move to the component architecture
> that Zope did from v2 to v3; architecturally brilliant but actually killed
> off the platform...

ROTFL!

I have to admit my first thought on reading that page and diagram was
"architecture astronauts"...

If you're building a system which will last many years and tie
together a core business, AND it really needs a rich internal object
model embodying "business rules", yes, maybe this approach is valid.
A core ERP system or some kinds of financial modelling systems spring
to mind.  Basically, a project which can justify a core team of 3-6
people working on it long term.

But if you really need a company database, and a variety of web front
ends and interfaces to it including CRUD, and budgets/timescales are
limited, then there are huge efficiency savings all round for trying
to do things "by the book" in Django, and using models as your
business objects.  New developers know where to look for things, and a
lot of so-called business rules are easily implemented by save methods
and signals.   And there are established best practices for testing.

This week we had to help an overseas firm add a reporting capability
to their Django app.  They sent over a copy of the code, and their
development practices were amazingly similar to ours, and we had it
running in an hour or so.   Everything was where you expected to find
it.  If we had needed to trace through 3-4 layers to understand where
one factoid came from, life would be a lot harder.

I do fully agree with having an agreed dependency graph.   We will
often centralize the 'non-Django' parts of an application as helper
functions inside a python module, inputting and returning just
primitive Python tests, and write unit tests for those.   But that's
more a matter of having a well written "utils.py" in an app than of
reimplementing everything outside of your framework.

Cooperating web services have also helped deal with the interfaces
problem.  Big hairy corporate systems are often broken down now into
reasonable sized chunks that POST and GET to each other, so you don't
need quite so many layers and adapters in the code of any one of them.


Just my grumpy-old-man 2p worth.
-- 
Andy Robinson

From tartley at tartley.com  Wed Dec  5 15:13:40 2012
From: tartley at tartley.com (Jonathan Hartley)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:13:40 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <7DF2CCDB-8403-4BD4-BAD8-60D3F3BF4701@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com> <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>
	<50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
	<7DF2CCDB-8403-4BD4-BAD8-60D3F3BF4701@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <50BF5694.7060906@tartley.com>

On 05/12/2012 13:08, Michael Foord wrote:
> On 5 Dec 2012, at 07:33, Chris Withers <chris at python.org> wrote:
>
>> On 04/12/2012 17:46, Menno Smits wrote:
>>> On 2012-12-04 14:46, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>>>
>>>> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of our
>>>> monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you think
>>>> it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.
>>> Since you mentioned this a few weeks back, I've been thinking about this
>>> approach a lot and doing a fair bit of background reading on the idea. I
>>> think it falls in to the brilliantly-obvious category, at least for any
>>> app of significant size. I plan to start using these ideas for my next
>>> big work project (not Django however). Previously, I've tended towards
>>> less flexible, harder-to-test, layered architectures.
>> The biggest concern I have with this approach is that it appears to preclude taking advantage of any features of your storage layer. If your business objects have to not know or care about their underlying storage, how do you take advantage of nice relational queries, stand alone text indexing service or other specific features of the architecture you've chosen?
> I guess you still need to provide an abstraction for these features, even if only one backend supports the abstraction.
What I'm reading suggests that if, for example, your app needs to use a 
text indexing service, then that's an external system and your 
application core should define an API which it will use to talk to it. 
So you still get to use features like this, but you are obliged to put 
an API layer (and possible inversion of control) between them, rather 
than making the call directly from within your business logic.

Similarly, if your business logic needs a small number of particular 
relational-type queries, then perhaps those queries should be the API 
defined by your core for talking to persistence. If your app needs many 
such queries, or general-purpose relational querying support, then 
perhaps you can create an API which supports general purpose querying 
such as the 'repository' pattern.

I'm no expert. The above is my newfound understanding and some speculation.

>> There's also the risk that you end up testing each bit (business, views, storage) in isolation and never get around to doing the automated integration testing required to ensure artifacts of implementation (*cough* bugs) don't cause problems across those boundaries...
> Well, you need integration / acceptance / functional / end to end tests *anyway*.
>
> Michael
>
>> That said, I'd love to see a project that's a good example of this, are there any around online in Python? The closest thing I can think of is the move to the component architecture that Zope did from v2 to v3; architecturally brilliant but actually killed off the platform...
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> -- 
>> Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
>>             - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> python-uk mailing list
>> python-uk at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>>
>
> --
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>
>
> May you do good and not evil
> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
> -- the sqlite blessing
> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>

-- 
Jonathan Hartley    tartley at tartley.com    http://tartley.com
Made of meat.       +44 7737 062 225       twitter/skype: tartley


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Dec  6 01:57:51 2012
From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 00:57:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1212052325260.2923@alice.lan>

On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Jonathan Hartley wrote:

> The last few weeks I've been thinking about the architectural pattern known 
> as Clean, Onion, Hexagonal, or Ports'n'Adaptors 
> <http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html> 
> (http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html). 
> I'm curious if many people are applying it in the Django world?
>
> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of our 
> monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you think it's 
> crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.

I have to confess I've only very lightly skimmed the article (which looks 
like it says some sensible things), but that's not going to stop me 
pontificating in over-general terms and posting a video that I liked:

The best programmers I've worked with have a knack to ruthlessly pick the 
simplest possible abstractions to fit the job in hand.  They never stop 
thinking to settle on any one-size-fits-all programming style.  The 
problem with those two statements I just made is that everybody can read 
them and think that they agree with them.  What *I* mean by simple is 
close to what Rich Hickey means in the first part of this talk (though I 
don't know enough to decide what I think about how he goes on to defend 
Clojure and its design principles in those terms):

http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy


(BTW, it's a shame to hear him give security as an example of a separable 
concern, because it isn't one)

The best code, you look at the functionality, then the code, and think 
"where is all the code?" and "how did such simplistic code happen to 
implement exactly what was needed?".  That's different from the "OMG, what 
is all this stuff for" feeling you get from over-engineered or just 
badly-factored code.  The best code is easy to change in the sense that 
changes in functionality require commensurate coding effort, and it's 
clear what code would have to change.  But it is also hard to change, in 
the sense that any change that leaves the behaviour the same would clearly 
make it worse -- including adding or removing abstraction.

I'd agree with Andy that not fighting too many battles with your framework 
has a lot to be said for it (and that it's maybe more important to nail 
basic coding practices of the kind you'd find in Code Complete than to 
take even a single step away from what the django tutorial tells you to 
do).  But even short programs can gain simplicity from ignoring the 
framework or abstracting it a little, where it suits the problem, as it 
often does.


John

From mike at mikedeplume.com  Thu Dec  6 11:47:00 2012
From: mike at mikedeplume.com (Mike de Plume)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2012 10:47:00 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <1354790820.2025.2.camel@roobarb.databaseassociates.co.uk>

On Tue, 2012-12-04 at 14:46 +0000, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of
> our monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you
> think it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc. 

All three, I suspect.

Abstraction and properly designed APIs are always good, and I
guess the layered structure occurs quite naturally. (or, perhaps,
_should_ occur quite naturally?) My own difficulty with these
structures comes from the business logic part. There's four
aspects of this - the choice of what goes on the form presented
to the user, the validation of user input, the logic of what
happens when a button is pressed (calculations and storage), and
the choice of what the user sees next (business process). The
middle two can clearly be devolved to a business object, and the
outer two can be _supported_ by a business object, but, it seems
to me, there is always something 'businessy' in the user
interface parts. My experience here is, admittedly, limited, so
I'm probably missing something.

I'm currently using a version of MVC, with components. I
partition the source along business lines with appropriate
parts (components) going under the headings of M, V, or C as
appropriate. Creating a new business object or process can be a
bit mind bending, but, generally, the bits fall into the places
where you might expect them. None of this (for certain values of
None) generates html directly, so, in principle, and within
limits, I can customise what the user sees.

So, I think I have separated concerns where this is possible, and
not done so where it's just too difficult. Business logic is
packaged in a way that makes it accessible, and, at the same
time, recognises that the presentation is a factor. My
conclusion, for what it's worth, is: layering is good, but don't
be officious :-)

Mike S.


From tartley at tartley.com  Mon Dec 10 18:49:10 2012
From: tartley at tartley.com (Jonathan Hartley)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:49:10 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>

Can I suggest we move this discussion to python-uk, so it will be seen 
by those who will actually be affected? I have accordingly cross-posted, 
my apologies. Perhaps subsequent replies could remove 'pyconuk' from the 
distribution?

For those new to the fray, the topic is the creation of the new 
python-uk Google+ "community" page, and whether it is a good thing, or 
might fragment the python-uk mailing list community.

My actual comment is inline below.

     Jonathan


On 10/12/2012 17:15, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/12/12 15:10, Martin P. Hellwig wrote:
>> Hi Tim/All,
>>
>> My intention is to have a point of presence for the uk python
>> community outside of organizing the UK PyCon. As you have pointed
>> out that outside of conference organization, there is not much of
>> UK python going on. By creating the community page I hope that we
>> can keep this list more pure towards UK PyCon's and move the
>> 'noise' (as far as there was any) towards the community page. Of
>> course I will try to bridge anything interesting from the list
>> towards the community page, but the community page is just that and
>> the mailing list for the pycon uk is also just that :-) I find
>> using google+ communities rather easy and perhaps it for others
>> less of a hurdle too. I hope that  we can create a better
>> representation of the UK Python Developers via this.
>>
>> As alwyas I am open for any suggestions.
>>
> The python-uk mailing list serves us well. The suggestion of a G+
> locations feels like a bad idea since it's duplication of something
> that already does a fine job and causes fragmentation.
>
> While not the world's most active list, there are at least three user
> groups (London Python Dojo, Campug and Reading Dojo) who post every
> month with traffic from elsewhere (Sheffield???) and the odd job
> announcement.
>
> Obviously, *this* (pyconuk) list only ever gets active around, er,
> PyconUK.
>
> If you want something more immediate and real-time there's also the
> python-uk channel on freenode IRC.
>
> N.

While I understand the many objections due to fragmentation and 
accessibility (and it's just the sort of curmudgeonly viewpoint I might 
normally espouse myself) they ought to be balanced against the empirical 
observation that traffic to the python-uk list is very light, while 
Martin and other's posts to the new G+ 'community' in the last few days 
seem to substantially outweigh it.

This might just be because the G+ community is novel and is seeing 
sign-up traffic that will quickly ebb, or maybe it's because it's hip 
and accessible to a more thrilling and vibrant crowd. Regardless, I 
think it's showing promising signs of life, and while I might personally 
prefer the safe and familiar environment of the monospaced mailing list, 
I have to grant that the content is ultimately the point, not the 
medium. Martin might just have started something wonderful, and I think 
should be encouraged to nurture it, and see what transpires.

Cheers,

     Jonathan

>> Cheers,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 December 2012 14:50, Tim Golden <mail at timgolden.me.uk
>> <mailto:mail at timgolden.me.uk>> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/12/2012 14:32, Martin P. Hellwig wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I now that I have been absent for a number of years on this list,
>>> but now after changing jobs (well I am in the middle of it
>>> again),
>> changing
>>> homes and being a daddy (still am) I have come to a point where I
>>> can get more actively involved again.
>>>
>>> Since google lately communities introduced , I have started the
>>> Python-UK one, however I hope that I can involve some members on
>>> this list too, especially in the event of conflicts of
>>> moderation.
>>>
>>> I know that some members do not think too highly about the
>>> omnipresent of google, however I do think it is nicely
>>> implemented and can
>> give good
>>> reach out to the community.
>> I am... ambivalent on the subject of Google Plus. Could you,
>> perhaps, outline what you think it brings to the party? The
>> immediately obvious downside is that it becomes yet another place
>> to keep track of if you want to know what's going on. (Not that an
>> awful lot does go on the Python UK community :) ).
>>
>> TJG _______________________________________________ pyconuk mailing
>> list pyconuk at python.org <mailto:pyconuk at python.org>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ pyconuk mailing
>> list pyconuk at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk
>>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/
>
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> =dewe
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> pyconuk mailing list
> pyconuk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk
>

-- 
Jonathan Hartley    tartley at tartley.com    http://tartley.com
Made of meat.       +44 7737 062 225       twitter/skype: tartley


From kev at projectcolo.org.uk  Mon Dec 10 19:16:42 2012
From: kev at projectcolo.org.uk (Kevin Campbell)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:16:42 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Django pub meetup tomorrow
Message-ID: <CAHf4QOgz=QGvVte8YzERANqEU7yzAk6GFharXhGoZKmeDkSctg@mail.gmail.com>

In case anyone here's interested, the London Django meetup group is having
some Christmas drinks tomorrow. No talks or formal agenda, just a pub
meetup.

Location: The Shooting Star, 125-129 Middlesex Street. London. E1 7JF
Time: 6pm onwards

We have a few tables booked at the front, hopefully we'll be easy to find.

More details at: http://www.meetup.com/The-London-Django-Meetup-Group/
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From kev at projectcolo.org.uk  Mon Dec 10 19:20:45 2012
From: kev at projectcolo.org.uk (Kevin Campbell)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:20:45 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org> <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <CAHf4QOhW49xTYp-i9iapQ3O+spKC2ramhf1znN5d-D2KR1yOdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 5:49 PM, Jonathan Hartley <tartley at tartley.com>wrote:

> Can I suggest we move this discussion to python-uk, so it will be seen by
> those who will actually be affected? I have accordingly cross-posted, my
> apologies. Perhaps subsequent replies could remove 'pyconuk' from the
> distribution?
>
> For those new to the fray, the topic is the creation of the new python-uk
> Google+ "community" page, and whether it is a good thing, or might fragment
> the python-uk mailing list community.
>
> My actual comment is inline below.
>

I'd assume there's room for both. This mailing list is very quiet, and it
seems the general view is it's more of an announcements list than a
discussion group. That might not be the intent, certainly. Maybe this gets
a way to have more discussion without filling python-uk with list noise.

K
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From tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk  Mon Dec 10 21:02:30 2012
From: tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk (Tony Ibbs)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:02:30 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <CAHf4QOhW49xTYp-i9iapQ3O+spKC2ramhf1znN5d-D2KR1yOdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org> <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
	<CAHf4QOhW49xTYp-i9iapQ3O+spKC2ramhf1znN5d-D2KR1yOdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>

Hmm. Don't forget that some of us *can't* use google plus, because it won't let us use our normal online names (I've been TIbs online since before there was such a thing, but that's not good enough for google plus). I'm sure I'm not the only one. That shouldn't matter to anyone on this list, of course (my problem, etc.), but it needs to be considered if the aim is to *broaden* the community. And there are other concerns with all of the social networking sites (google plus, facebook, etc.).

Google groups, of course, just (at the moment) need a  valid email address to post to them - if you really want something from google, does that provide a half-way house? (I've no idea if you can gateway google groups and google plus in some transparent manner).

Tibs

From jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk  Mon Dec 10 21:07:31 2012
From: jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:07:31 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org> <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <20121210200731.GI12289@snowy.squish.net>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 05:49:10PM +0000, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
> Can I suggest we move this discussion to python-uk, so it will be seen  
> by those who will actually be affected? I have accordingly cross-posted,  
> my apologies. Perhaps subsequent replies could remove 'pyconuk' from the  
> distribution?
>
> For those new to the fray, the topic is the creation of the new  
> python-uk Google+ "community" page, and whether it is a good thing, or  
> might fragment the python-uk mailing list community.

Might've been a good idea to let us know where this community actually
is ;-) I think it's here:
https://plus.google.com/communities/109155400666012015869

From jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk  Mon Dec 10 21:06:55 2012
From: jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:06:55 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org> <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
	<CAHf4QOhW49xTYp-i9iapQ3O+spKC2ramhf1znN5d-D2KR1yOdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20121210200655.GH12289@snowy.squish.net>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 08:02:30PM +0000, Tony Ibbs wrote:
> Hmm. Don't forget that some of us *can't* use google plus, because
> it won't let us use our normal online names (I've been TIbs online
> since before there was such a thing, but that's not good enough for
> google plus).

In theory that's allowed on Google Plus these days.
http://support.google.com/plus/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1228271

From duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk  Mon Dec 10 21:47:57 2012
From: duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk (Duncan Booth)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:47:57 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org> <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
	<CAHf4QOhW49xTYp-i9iapQ3O+spKC2ramhf1znN5d-D2KR1yOdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAGGicCLm-8T=Ps2gLiWi87u9=ShdM53uZa5FMAyiNCgc_fP0Sw@mail.gmail.com>

Surely that's more of a "won't" than a "can't"? Your post to this list has
both names clearly displayed and Google+ would let you do the same albeit
by marking your usual name as a nickname and it would appear in parentheses
exactly as it does on your Facebook profile.

I do agree though that there are many people who simply don't want to give
all their personal data to such sites, and that has to be kept in mind when
suggesting we all decamp from a mailing list to a community: I use both
Facebook and Google, but I avoid giving FB more information than I have to
to get what I want from them. With Google I give them a lot more
information because they give me a lot of benefits in return (Google Now
for example). I also believe (perhaps wrongly) that Facebook makes money
from selling my information to third parties whereas Google makes money by
keeping my information to themselves. Other people I know refuse to use
Google+ or refuse to use Facebook (possibly some use neither but I probably
don't see them online much).

Duncan


On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Tony Ibbs <tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk> wrote:

> Hmm. Don't forget that some of us *can't* use google plus, because it
> won't let us use our normal online names (I've been TIbs online since
> before there was such a thing, but that's not good enough for google plus).
> I'm sure I'm not the only one. That shouldn't matter to anyone on this
> list, of course (my problem, etc.), but it needs to be considered if the
> aim is to *broaden* the community. And there are other concerns with all of
> the social networking sites (google plus, facebook, etc.).
>
> Google groups, of course, just (at the moment) need a  valid email address
> to post to them - if you really want something from google, does that
> provide a half-way house? (I've no idea if you can gateway google groups
> and google plus in some transparent manner).
>
> Tibs
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>
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From tartley at tartley.com  Tue Dec 11 11:48:37 2012
From: tartley at tartley.com (Jonathan Hartley)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:48:37 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] [pyconuk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <1355216525.2023.7.camel@roobarb.databaseassociates.co.uk>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1355173681.10992.6.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
	<1355216525.2023.7.camel@roobarb.databaseassociates.co.uk>
Message-ID: <50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>

On 11/12/2012 09:02, Mike Sandford wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 21:08 +0000, Russel Winder wrote:
>> For me the problem is not Google, the problem is that it is a forum. A
>> forum is a place you have to go to to find out what is happening. Some
>> people like this. I want interaction to come to me. In particular it
>> needs to be in my email.  Google has this idea that if you sign up for
>> email notifications, you get notified of the presence of an event, you
>> still have to go to the forum to discover the content of the
>> contribution.
> Nicely put. I've been on some places where notifications come in and you
> have to click through (and possibly sign in!) and after a bit that extra
> step becomes do it later, and do it later turns into never. An email I
> can scan and decide pretty much immediately. And then delete it.
>
> That last point is important. I get to manage my own interaction.
>
> Mike S.
>
> _______________________________________________
> pyconuk mailing list
> pyconuk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk
>

Nobody has proposed replacing the mailing list, or changing it in any way.

Somebody just started a G+ community as well, and thought you all might 
like to know.

Hugs,

     Jonathan

-- 
Jonathan Hartley    tartley at tartley.com    http://tartley.com
Made of meat.       +44 7737 062 225       twitter/skype: tartley


From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Dec 11 11:51:51 2012
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:51:51 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
Message-ID: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>

ReportLab are one of oldest Python firms in the UK.  We are looking
for high-calibre individuals to join us in Wimbledon (South-West
London), UK, for immediate start.

Reportlab offers a chance to work on world-beating technology with
very high quality mentors, a first class customer base and enormous
potential for growth.   We are looking for people who are smart, get
things done and are good team players.  We will consider people with
extensive experience, as well as those at the start of their careers.

All of the following skills are of interest - although we don't expect
anyone to have all of them:

* Python programming - or evidence of ability to learn multiple languages
* Good analysis skills - the ability to listen to customers, figure
out where the value lies, and help decide what to build in the first
place
* Understanding of web frameworks, databases, XML
* CSS and HTML
* Javascript programming
* Have the common sense to know when coding is NOT the answer and the
ability to communicate clearly with non-programmers
* Common practices in agile, open-source-style development
* Ubuntu or similar sysadmin experience
* Design skills (web and/or print)
* Mobile development (HTML5/tablet/handheld)

Our work covers the full stack from front-end through to server-side
development, in a modern open source environment. We use Python,
Django and MySQL on all common platforms, jquery and similar libraries
for rich interfaces, as well as our own products for PDF generation.
In 2013 we expect to be working on..
* hosted systems to generate personalised documents and data graphics
for clients
* an exciting SAAS offering
* our open source and commercial PDF libraries, used by thousands worldwide
* major web applications for financial clients, including mobile development

We are based in Wimbledon Village, in one of the nicest corners of
London, with beautiful views and just 200m from Wimbledon Common.  If
you want to avoid the London commute, there are numerous options
nearby.  We also have showers and changing facilities on site and are
just 200m from the common, for those who seek a healthy lifestyle.


Salary range is ?20k-?35k depending on experience.

Please email a CV to vacancies at reportlab.com.  If you email me
directly, you have failed in our trademarked "can this person follow
simple instructions?" rapid screening process.

If you don't have a CV up to date but are interested, please drop a
note anyway as we will be interviewing before Christmas.

Strictly no agencies, please.  We will only talk to direct applicants.


Best Regards,


-- 
Andy Robinson
Managing Director
ReportLab Europe Ltd.
Thornton House, Thornton Road, Wimbledon, London SW19 4NG, UK
Tel +44-20-8405-6420

From martin.hellwig at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 12:10:25 2012
From: martin.hellwig at gmail.com (Martin P. Hellwig)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:10:25 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] [pyconuk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1355173681.10992.6.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
	<1355216525.2023.7.camel@roobarb.databaseassociates.co.uk>
	<50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <CAMWL9gXBAzYatqkcfk7YUyoYa-TL7keeZpXCX8-VSVHVSWTdWA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 December 2012 10:48, Jonathan Hartley <tartley at tartley.com> wrote:

> On 11/12/2012 09:02, Mike Sandford wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 21:08 +0000, Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>>> For me the problem is not Google, the problem is that it is a forum. A
>>> forum is a place you have to go to to find out what is happening. Some
>>> people like this. I want interaction to come to me. In particular it
>>> needs to be in my email.  Google has this idea that if you sign up for
>>> email notifications, you get notified of the presence of an event, you
>>> still have to go to the forum to discover the content of the
>>> contribution.
>>>
>> Nicely put. I've been on some places where notifications come in and you
>> have to click through (and possibly sign in!) and after a bit that extra
>> step becomes do it later, and do it later turns into never. An email I
>> can scan and decide pretty much immediately. And then delete it.
>>
>> That last point is important. I get to manage my own interaction.
>>
>> Mike S.
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> pyconuk mailing list
>> pyconuk at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/pyconuk<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk>
>>
>>
> Nobody has proposed replacing the mailing list, or changing it in any way.
>
> Somebody just started a G+ community as well, and thought you all might
> like to know.
>
> Hugs,
>
>     Jonathan
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Hartley    tartley at tartley.com    http://tartley.com
> Made of meat.       +44 7737 062 225       twitter/skype: tartley
>
>
> And that somebody being me :-)
Indeed it is not meant to replace *your* choice of communication, however I
felt that there are a lot of people who prefer another form of
communication, like google community pages. I do have in mind that I try
not to fragment the uk python community any more as it already  is and I do
want to be held responsible for being a good community admin.
Tim Golden did suggest a bi-directional link, however I feel that this
might not be beneficial in the amount of +1's and me-too's I expect to
occur. However I'll try bridging it manual by posting stuff that is on this
list also on the community page and vice verse if appropriate.

I do feel that the community page is growing quite nicely as in the three
days of existence we have just over 100 members.


Kind regards,

Martin P. Hellwig
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From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Dec 11 12:38:42 2012
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:38:42 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 December 2012 10:51, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:
> We are looking for people who are smart, get
> things done and are good team players.


For all employers out there....  my HR guru goes to all the seminars
on employment law, and is very current on what we can and cannot do.
She has told me that our latest round of ads are wrong because
explicitly asking for SMART people is discriminatory against THICK
people.   You can ask about skills, but not about innate
characteristics like age or sex (which we all know), and apparently,
now, brains.

Anyone else heard this kind of total bollocks lately?  ;-)

- Andy

From nigel at nigelsmall.com  Tue Dec 11 12:42:22 2012
From: nigel at nigelsmall.com (Nigel Small)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:42:22 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBmhCmofhg1jw+-YPN0xn2ZoSMzquj53RDABgD37XBzPbHyPw@mail.gmail.com>

That makes me want to cry.

On 11 December 2012 11:38, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:

> On 11 December 2012 10:51, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:
> > We are looking for people who are smart, get
> > things done and are good team players.
>
>
> For all employers out there....  my HR guru goes to all the seminars
> on employment law, and is very current on what we can and cannot do.
> She has told me that our latest round of ads are wrong because
> explicitly asking for SMART people is discriminatory against THICK
> people.   You can ask about skills, but not about innate
> characteristics like age or sex (which we all know), and apparently,
> now, brains.
>
> Anyone else heard this kind of total bollocks lately?  ;-)
>
> - Andy
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>
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From matth at netsight.co.uk  Tue Dec 11 12:45:01 2012
From: matth at netsight.co.uk (Matt Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:45:01 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <458B57B6-E8B2-4244-8A29-E44B639A0E94@netsight.co.uk>


On 11 Dec 2012, at 11:38, Andy Robinson wrote:

> On 11 December 2012 10:51, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:
>> We are looking for people who are smart, get
>> things done and are good team players.
> 
> 
> For all employers out there....  my HR guru goes to all the seminars
> on employment law, and is very current on what we can and cannot do.
> She has told me that our latest round of ads are wrong because
> explicitly asking for SMART people is discriminatory against THICK
> people.   You can ask about skills, but not about innate
> characteristics like age or sex (which we all know), and apparently,
> now, brains.
> 
> Anyone else heard this kind of total bollocks lately?  ;-)

We just submitted a job ad to a University placement scheme site and there was a whole load of info there about what you can and can't say. e.g. you couldn't ask for someone 'energetic' as it implied ageism. *facepalm* I remember a while back someone from aUniversity IT dept looking at me in horror at our job advert. They said they had to ask *exactly* the same questions of each candidate regardless of how the candidate answered or whether relevant or not. Seemed to me impossible to actually assess someone's ability or suitability if they were that strict.

-Matt

-- 
Matt Hamilton, Technical Director
Netsight Internet Solutions Limited
http://www.netsight.co.uk/matth
Tel: 0117 90 90 90 1 Ext. 15

Registered in England No. 3892180
Registered office: 40 Berkeley Square, Clifton, Bristol, BS8 1HU


From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Dec 11 12:48:39 2012
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:48:39 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <458B57B6-E8B2-4244-8A29-E44B639A0E94@netsight.co.uk>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<458B57B6-E8B2-4244-8A29-E44B639A0E94@netsight.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CABjtApvXe=AC-3GTCE1vt249EDizHSCYscQFY8EPuc_sc1zy_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 December 2012 11:45, Matt Hamilton <matth at netsight.co.uk> wrote:
> We just submitted a job ad to a University placement scheme site and there was a whole load of info there about what you can and can't say. e.g. you couldn't ask for someone 'energetic' as it implied ageism. *facepalm* I remember a while back someone from aUniversity IT dept looking at me in horror at our job advert. They said they had to ask *exactly* the same questions of each candidate regardless of how the candidate answered or whether relevant or not. Seemed to me impossible to actually assess someone's ability or suitability if they were that strict.
>

Brilliant.  I wonder if the same rules apply to students and academics
they interview?

From rod.hyde at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 13:08:07 2012
From: rod.hyde at gmail.com (Rod Hyde)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:08:07 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApvXe=AC-3GTCE1vt249EDizHSCYscQFY8EPuc_sc1zy_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<458B57B6-E8B2-4244-8A29-E44B639A0E94@netsight.co.uk>
	<CABjtApvXe=AC-3GTCE1vt249EDizHSCYscQFY8EPuc_sc1zy_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABN41K4bn0VfO4bt_9qa6cmNqSv7+1FRoXAK4Fyzw=-08+mmVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Surely it is ageism to imply that energetic implies ageism? In other words,
if a person thinks that energetic implies ageism, then that person has a
preconceived idea of a relationship between energy levels and age,
otherwise they would not have considered such a rule in the first place.

--- Rod




On 11 December 2012 11:48, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:

> On 11 December 2012 11:45, Matt Hamilton <matth at netsight.co.uk> wrote:
> > We just submitted a job ad to a University placement scheme site and
> there was a whole load of info there about what you can and can't say. e.g.
> you couldn't ask for someone 'energetic' as it implied ageism. *facepalm* I
> remember a while back someone from aUniversity IT dept looking at me in
> horror at our job advert. They said they had to ask *exactly* the same
> questions of each candidate regardless of how the candidate answered or
> whether relevant or not. Seemed to me impossible to actually assess
> someone's ability or suitability if they were that strict.
> >
>
> Brilliant.  I wonder if the same rules apply to students and academics
> they interview?
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>
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From nigel at nigelsmall.com  Tue Dec 11 13:09:52 2012
From: nigel at nigelsmall.com (Nigel Small)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:09:52 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABN41K4bn0VfO4bt_9qa6cmNqSv7+1FRoXAK4Fyzw=-08+mmVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<458B57B6-E8B2-4244-8A29-E44B639A0E94@netsight.co.uk>
	<CABjtApvXe=AC-3GTCE1vt249EDizHSCYscQFY8EPuc_sc1zy_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABN41K4bn0VfO4bt_9qa6cmNqSv7+1FRoXAK4Fyzw=-08+mmVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBmhC=PR3aY9tipnt4JyUJ5CikJh=WdZGGOURBVhszeO3cTRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed: my father is 63 and far more energetic than me. However, he'd make
a terrible programmer.


On 11 December 2012 12:08, Rod Hyde <rod.hyde at gmail.com> wrote:

> Surely it is ageism to imply that energetic implies ageism? In other
> words, if a person thinks that energetic implies ageism, then that person
> has a preconceived idea of a relationship between energy levels and age,
> otherwise they would not have considered such a rule in the first place.
>
> --- Rod
>
>
>
>
> On 11 December 2012 11:48, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11 December 2012 11:45, Matt Hamilton <matth at netsight.co.uk> wrote:
>> > We just submitted a job ad to a University placement scheme site and
>> there was a whole load of info there about what you can and can't say. e.g.
>> you couldn't ask for someone 'energetic' as it implied ageism. *facepalm* I
>> remember a while back someone from aUniversity IT dept looking at me in
>> horror at our job advert. They said they had to ask *exactly* the same
>> questions of each candidate regardless of how the candidate answered or
>> whether relevant or not. Seemed to me impossible to actually assess
>> someone's ability or suitability if they were that strict.
>> >
>>
>> Brilliant.  I wonder if the same rules apply to students and academics
>> they interview?
>> _______________________________________________
>> python-uk mailing list
>> python-uk at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>
>
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From gurgeh73 at free.fr  Tue Dec 11 13:33:25 2012
From: gurgeh73 at free.fr (Richard Barran)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:33:25 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30745E96-150C-4398-A501-2196C11A0E9B@free.fr>

On 11 Dec 2012, at 11:38, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:

> On 11 December 2012 10:51, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:
>> We are looking for people who are smart, get
>> things done and are good team players.
> 
> 
> For all employers out there....  my HR guru goes to all the seminars
> on employment law, and is very current on what we can and cannot do.
> She has told me that our latest round of ads are wrong because
> explicitly asking for SMART people is discriminatory against THICK
> people.   You can ask about skills, but not about innate
> characteristics like age or sex (which we all know), and apparently,
> now, brains.
> 
> Anyone else heard this kind of total bollocks lately?  ;-)

Just say that you meant SMARTLY-DRESSED people :-)

PS Actually, bad idea. You've just dissuaded 95% of the developer population from applying for your job.

From dan at ivixor.net  Tue Dec 11 13:44:22 2012
From: dan at ivixor.net (Dan Ros)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:44:22 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Industrial Placement at ARM, Cambridge
Message-ID: <CADf4KaRQO8=ioiMhdhOUxxq45kdt8Gb2i2WWPmaRU3eNi2gYLw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

We have the following upcoming 6-12 month industrial placement vacancy:

http://careers.peopleclick.com/careerscp/client_arm/external/en-us/rssfeed.do?functionName=viewFromLink&jobPostId=9245

The role will be primarily relating to development on our reasonably large
Django web application. This is a paid position.

For more information or to apply, please go via the above URL.

Thanks,

Dan
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From chris.dent at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 13:56:54 2012
From: chris.dent at gmail.com (chris.dent at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:56:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <30745E96-150C-4398-A501-2196C11A0E9B@free.fr>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<30745E96-150C-4398-A501-2196C11A0E9B@free.fr>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1212111247520.10454@crank.local>

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Richard Barran wrote:

> PS Actually, bad idea. You've just dissuaded 95% of the developer
>    population from applying for your job.

Is it fair to say that I hope the salary being offered already does
that? Seems really low for near-London.

Actually I have no idea. Is there a well known range for fair and
appropriate salaries for Python devs in the vicinity of London, or
perhaps it is standard to list low, offer high?

Or am I misunderstanding cost of living in London or demand for
devs?

-- 
Chris Dent                                   http://burningchrome.com/
                                 [...]

From jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk  Tue Dec 11 14:26:00 2012
From: jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:26:00 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20121211132600.GK12289@snowy.squish.net>

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:38:42AM +0000, Andy Robinson wrote:
> For all employers out there....  my HR guru goes to all the seminars
> on employment law, and is very current on what we can and cannot do.
> She has told me that our latest round of ads are wrong because
> explicitly asking for SMART people is discriminatory against THICK
> people.   You can ask about skills, but not about innate
> characteristics like age or sex (which we all know), and apparently,
> now, brains.

That sounds quite unlikely to be true. As far as I am aware,
"thick people" is not a protected group.

From duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk  Tue Dec 11 14:27:16 2012
From: duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk (Duncan Booth)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:27:16 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1212111247520.10454@crank.local>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<30745E96-150C-4398-A501-2196C11A0E9B@free.fr>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1212111247520.10454@crank.local>
Message-ID: <CAGGicCJXw0W8k6mw6rr+V2HBrWsRczOqrHXoMsc3sj-v=uLe3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:56 PM, <chris.dent at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Richard Barran wrote:
>
>  PS Actually, bad idea. You've just dissuaded 95% of the developer
>>    population from applying for your job.
>>
>
> Is it fair to say that I hope the salary being offered already does
> that? Seems really low for near-London.
>
> Actually I have no idea. Is there a well known range for fair and
> appropriate salaries for Python devs in the vicinity of London, or
> perhaps it is standard to list low, offer high?
>
>
Apparently the average Python salary offered in the UK is ?52,500
At least, according to this site it is:
http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-python-salary
and if you click through to the other tab the South West London average is
?62,500.
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From kotecha.ravi at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 14:38:45 2012
From: kotecha.ravi at gmail.com (Ravi Kotecha)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:38:45 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CAGGicCJXw0W8k6mw6rr+V2HBrWsRczOqrHXoMsc3sj-v=uLe3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<30745E96-150C-4398-A501-2196C11A0E9B@free.fr>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1212111247520.10454@crank.local>
	<CAGGicCJXw0W8k6mw6rr+V2HBrWsRczOqrHXoMsc3sj-v=uLe3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFOA9xD7xONhzLoUazmCre=PSADYew-pkU7k=+---3eHmWca+Q@mail.gmail.com>

?52k doesn't seem unrealistic but I think it's distorted by the banks &
hedge funds. Wouldn't expect to see a start-up paying that sort of salary
unless it's a betting exchange.

That being said, ?25-30k does sound very low for what they're looking for
(full stack Python programmer)


On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Duncan Booth <
duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:56 PM, <chris.dent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Richard Barran wrote:
>>
>>  PS Actually, bad idea. You've just dissuaded 95% of the developer
>>>    population from applying for your job.
>>>
>>
>> Is it fair to say that I hope the salary being offered already does
>> that? Seems really low for near-London.
>>
>> Actually I have no idea. Is there a well known range for fair and
>> appropriate salaries for Python devs in the vicinity of London, or
>> perhaps it is standard to list low, offer high?
>>
>>
> Apparently the average Python salary offered in the UK is ?52,500
> At least, according to this site it is:
> http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-python-salary
> and if you click through to the other tab the South West London average is
> ?62,500.
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>
>
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From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Dec 11 14:41:34 2012
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:41:34 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] [pyconuk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <CAMWL9gXBAzYatqkcfk7YUyoYa-TL7keeZpXCX8-VSVHVSWTdWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1355173681.10992.6.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
	<1355216525.2023.7.camel@roobarb.databaseassociates.co.uk>
	<50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>
	<CAMWL9gXBAzYatqkcfk7YUyoYa-TL7keeZpXCX8-VSVHVSWTdWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50C7380E.1060406@timgolden.me.uk>

On 11/12/2012 11:10, Martin P. Hellwig wrote:
> And that somebody being me :-)

And thank you for taking the initiative. As I mentioned before, I have
nothing against Google+ as such, except for the fact that I don't really
go there very often. (Maybe this will be an incentive). The current
showing suggests that there are lots of people who do.

I'm definitely not going to ignore the Google+ community; but every time
I make a foray into Google+ I leave nonplussed. I'm sure it's just me :)

Point taken about the downsides to a two-way channel. I'm sure, if
anyone had enough incentive, that one could arrange a moderated channel
if there really was a need. Perhaps the need won't really emerge.
Meanwhile, as you suggest here -- and there -- anyone who wishes can
cross-post or repost.

TJG

From jamestarin at 2degreesnetwork.com  Tue Dec 11 14:55:16 2012
From: jamestarin at 2degreesnetwork.com (James Tarin)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 08:55:16 -0500
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CAGGicCJXw0W8k6mw6rr+V2HBrWsRczOqrHXoMsc3sj-v=uLe3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CCECEB69.289DD%jamestarin@2degreesnetwork.com>

You'll get different numbers depending upon where you look:

http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/south%20east/python.do

From: Duncan Booth <duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk<mailto:duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk>>
Reply-To: UK Python Users <python-uk at python.org<mailto:python-uk at python.org>>
Date: Tuesday, 11 December 2012 13:27
To: UK Python Users <python-uk at python.org<mailto:python-uk at python.org>>
Subject: Re: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:56 PM, <chris.dent at gmail.com<mailto:chris.dent at gmail.com>> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Richard Barran wrote:

PS Actually, bad idea. You've just dissuaded 95% of the developer
   population from applying for your job.

Is it fair to say that I hope the salary being offered already does
that? Seems really low for near-London.

Actually I have no idea. Is there a well known range for fair and
appropriate salaries for Python devs in the vicinity of London, or
perhaps it is standard to list low, offer high?


Apparently the average Python salary offered in the UK is ?52,500
At least, according to this site it is:
http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-python-salary
and if you click through to the other tab the South West London average is ?62,500.
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From daniele at vurt.org  Tue Dec 11 14:43:50 2012
From: daniele at vurt.org (Daniele Procida)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:43:50 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] DjangoCon Europe 2013 call for papers
Message-ID: <20121211134350.1976919076@smtp.ntlworld.com>

DjangoCon Europe http://2013.djangocon.eu will be held in Warsaw from the 15th-19th May 2013 (three days of talks followed by two of sprints and workshops).

The organisers are very pleased to invite members of the Django community to submit their talk proposals for the event.

We're looking for Django and Python enthusiasts, pioneers, adventurers and anyone else who would like to share their Django achievements and experiments with the rest of the community.

We are particularly keen to invite submissions from potential speakers who have not previously considered speaking at an event like this - so if you haven't, please consider it now!

We really look forward to hearing from you all, and seeing you in Warsaw next May. 

For more information, see http://blog.djangocircus.com/post/36590674298/call-for-speakers. 

This call for papers closes on January 8th 2013.

Powodzenia!


Daniele, on behalf of the DjangoCon Europe organising committee.


From stestagg at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 15:33:00 2012
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:33:00 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CCECEB69.289DD%jamestarin@2degreesnetwork.com>
References: <CAGGicCJXw0W8k6mw6rr+V2HBrWsRczOqrHXoMsc3sj-v=uLe3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCECEB69.289DD%jamestarin@2degreesnetwork.com>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8Y7Xd81kQfqSyKx1e2to=chNu8i0n-gOXb+eRhczoG_Jg@mail.gmail.com>

Having just gone through this, I would expect a python role of this nature
to be offered between ?35-45 k DOE in London.

There are certainly candidates around who could satisfy all of the stated
requirements, but will be given competitive offers from other people
looking.

I got the impression that python adoption is growing fast right now in the
South of England, so the market is quite competitive

Thanks

Steve

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 1:55 PM, James Tarin <jamestarin at 2degreesnetwork.com
> wrote:

> You'll get different numbers depending upon where you look:
>
> http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/south%20east/python.do
>
> From: Duncan Booth <duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk>
> Reply-To: UK Python Users <python-uk at python.org>
> Date: Tuesday, 11 December 2012 13:27
> To: UK Python Users <python-uk at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
>
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 12:56 PM, <chris.dent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Richard Barran wrote:
>>
>> PS Actually, bad idea. You've just dissuaded 95% of the developer
>>>    population from applying for your job.
>>>
>>
>> Is it fair to say that I hope the salary being offered already does
>> that? Seems really low for near-London.
>>
>> Actually I have no idea. Is there a well known range for fair and
>> appropriate salaries for Python devs in the vicinity of London, or
>> perhaps it is standard to list low, offer high?
>>
>>
> Apparently the average Python salary offered in the UK is ?52,500
> At least, according to this site it is:
> http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-python-salary
> and if you click through to the other tab the South West London average is
> ?62,500.
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>
>
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From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Dec 11 16:36:12 2012
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:36:12 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CACFDE8Y7Xd81kQfqSyKx1e2to=chNu8i0n-gOXb+eRhczoG_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGicCJXw0W8k6mw6rr+V2HBrWsRczOqrHXoMsc3sj-v=uLe3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCECEB69.289DD%jamestarin@2degreesnetwork.com>
	<CACFDE8Y7Xd81kQfqSyKx1e2to=chNu8i0n-gOXb+eRhczoG_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABjtApvHd5Q03mLToCwqy3+EJwAja+cALWU5awYHOB=E6n0ySg@mail.gmail.com>

As the original poster, this has prompted me to check and I was quite
surprised to see that average salaries have risen by 13% in the last
year alone.

However, to be clear
1. The salaries in these surveys are presumably averaged across all
stages of peoples' 40 year careers
2. We are a fairly small business, we have enough 'old hands' already,
and we are mostly looking for people earlier in their careers
3. We are not looking for any one person with all of those skills,
just saying that those are all skills of interest.
4. Everything is negotiable

Best Regards,

-- 
Andy Robinson
Managing Director
ReportLab Europe Ltd.
Thornton House, Thornton Road, Wimbledon, London SW19 4NG, UK
Tel +44-20-8405-6420

From russel at winder.org.uk  Tue Dec 11 18:11:12 2012
From: russel at winder.org.uk (Russel Winder)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:11:12 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1355245872.10992.54.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>

On Tue, 2012-12-11 at 11:38 +0000, Andy Robinson wrote:
[?]
> For all employers out there....  my HR guru goes to all the seminars
> on employment law, and is very current on what we can and cannot do.
> She has told me that our latest round of ads are wrong because
> explicitly asking for SMART people is discriminatory against THICK
> people.   You can ask about skills, but not about innate
> characteristics like age or sex (which we all know), and apparently,
> now, brains.
> 
> Anyone else heard this kind of total bollocks lately?  ;-)

Whilst I appreciate your irritation, and that of many of the responders,
to this reaction of HR. The situation is actually far more subtle than
this simple point about "discrimination". Yes there are stupidities of
political correctness around and public bodies tend to be the worst
perpetrators.

However, the real drive of the diversity legislation is to try and get
employers to focus on the goals and objectives of the job and not on the
traditional CV properties of the candidate: can this person do the job,
not has this person got a 2.1 in computer science. In particular, the
underlying thrust of the legislation not only tries to stop people
discriminating in traditional ways, but also in more subtle ways. For
example, X left the job so Y must be a clone of X to be able to do the
job. A surprisingly common way of getting new people in. 

This is a difficult issue in reality, and whilst the real stupidities
rightly lead to ridicule, it is the good employers that look beyond
these and make use of the opportunities of the legislation, which
actually allow lots of freedoms to circumvent traditional employment
processes. 

-- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel at winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
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From russel at winder.org.uk  Tue Dec 11 18:15:41 2012
From: russel at winder.org.uk (Russel Winder)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:15:41 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] [pyconuk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1355173681.10992.6.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
	<1355216525.2023.7.camel@roobarb.databaseassociates.co.uk>
	<50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <1355246141.10992.56.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>

On Tue, 2012-12-11 at 10:48 +0000, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
[?]
> Nobody has proposed replacing the mailing list, or changing it in any way.
> 
> Somebody just started a G+ community as well, and thought you all might 
> like to know.

The problem for me is that we now have two communities instead of one.
Sadly it is not feasible to integrate the two in any way.

-- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel at winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
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From theology at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 18:34:38 2012
From: theology at gmail.com (Zeth)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:34:38 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org> <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
	<CAHf4QOhW49xTYp-i9iapQ3O+spKC2ramhf1znN5d-D2KR1yOdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>
Message-ID: <50C76EAE.9030505@gmail.com>

On 10/12/12 20:02, Tony Ibbs wrote:
> Hmm. Don't forget that some of us *can't* use google plus, because it won't let us use our normal online names (I've been TIbs online since before there was such a thing, but that's not good enough for google plus). I'm sure I'm not the only one. That shouldn't matter to anyone on this list, of course (my problem, etc.), but it needs to be considered if the aim is to *broaden* the community. And there are other concerns with all of the social networking sites (google plus, facebook, etc.).
>
> Google groups, of course, just (at the moment) need a  valid email address to post to them - if you really want something from google, does that provide a half-way house? (I've no idea if you can gateway google groups and google plus in some transparent manner).
>
> Tibs
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>

Back in bulletin board and usenet days I tried to only my first name 
online and carried on when I discovered the web.

The practical solution is to just call yourself King Tibs and you are 
sorted :-)

From theology at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 18:44:51 2012
From: theology at gmail.com (Zeth)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:44:51 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] [pyconuk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50C77113.9010005@gmail.com>

On 10/12/12 14:32, Martin P. Hellwig wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I now that I have been absent for a number of years on this list, but
> now after changing jobs (well I am in the middle of it again), changing
> homes and being a daddy (still am) I have come to a point where I can
> get more actively involved again.
>
> Since google lately communities introduced , I have started the
> Python-UK one, however I hope that I can involve some members on this
> list too, especially in the event of conflicts of moderation.
>
> I know that some members do not think too highly about the omnipresent
> of google, however I do think it is nicely implemented and can give good
> reach out to the community.
>
> You can find it here:
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/109155400666012015869
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Martin P. Hellwig
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pyconuk mailing list
> pyconuk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk
>

Thanks for setting this up Martin.

I just read the mailing list posts about the google+ group so didn't get 
time to read all of the google+ group itself yet.

Regarding the discussion about the differences between this mailing list 
and the new google plus group, apart from the proprietary issue about 
big brother, for me the key difference is that the Google group will 
allow lots of more trivial, specific or tentative discussions. It is not 
normal to tell the mailing list that I made this script or I wrote this 
blog post, but that is quite normal for a google group.

I like this kind of thing, but I understand the negative expressions. I 
think the answer is that if anything genuinely useful bubbles up out of 
the Google Plus group, it should be cross-posted here for the benefit of 
those who want a higher signal to noise ratio.

Best Wishes,
Zeth

From tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk  Tue Dec 11 20:39:18 2012
From: tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk (Tony Ibbs)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:39:18 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <CAGGicCLm-8T=Ps2gLiWi87u9=ShdM53uZa5FMAyiNCgc_fP0Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C5F6B5.3020608@timgolden.me.uk>
	<CAMWL9gXG04rwWeLkG5FTdi-W_fv0kfdYxvJJ=nKLAu5R=CD8oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50C618B9.2060404@ntoll.org> <50C62096.50907@tartley.com>
	<CAHf4QOhW49xTYp-i9iapQ3O+spKC2ramhf1znN5d-D2KR1yOdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<D913DD66-BCDA-46AD-A757-063EC6190F20@tibsnjoan.co.uk>
	<CAGGicCLm-8T=Ps2gLiWi87u9=ShdM53uZa5FMAyiNCgc_fP0Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8407B53-8405-467A-860A-FF079DB81879@tibsnjoan.co.uk>


On 10 Dec 2012, at 20:47, Duncan Booth wrote:

> Surely that's more of a "won't" than a "can't"?

OK, true enough.

> Your post to this list has both names clearly displayed

Indeed - I'm posting here to a list where (if anyone knows me!) it might be by either name. And it's not something I actually care *desperately* about - I like both forms of my name.

> and Google+ would let you do the same albeit by marking your usual name as a nickname
> and it would appear in parentheses exactly as it does on your Facebook profile.

The Facebook account is probably temporary, as I needed it to login to something for a project, and there was no workaround.

Anyway, this is not the place for me to talk about my reasons for wanting or not wanting a Google+ account, since I'm fairly sure no-one else cares!

> I do agree though that there are many people who simply don't want to give all their personal data to such sites, and that has to be kept in mind when suggesting we all decamp from a mailing list to a community:

This point of Duncan's is probably more relevant to more people.

It's also worth noting that I am an avid used of google code and happily use google groups - it's just one policy I object to.

Tibs



From jjl at pobox.com  Tue Dec 11 21:42:45 2012
From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:42:45 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABN41K4bn0VfO4bt_9qa6cmNqSv7+1FRoXAK4Fyzw=-08+mmVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<458B57B6-E8B2-4244-8A29-E44B639A0E94@netsight.co.uk>
	<CABjtApvXe=AC-3GTCE1vt249EDizHSCYscQFY8EPuc_sc1zy_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABN41K4bn0VfO4bt_9qa6cmNqSv7+1FRoXAK4Fyzw=-08+mmVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1212112020280.2949@alice.lan>

I won't argue with your logic, but if a group of people use "energetic" to 
mean "young", then that's what it means to them (in some context).  I 
think "energetic" has been a known as a standard job-ad euphemism for some 
time.  Whether it has actually been used widely in that way, I don't know 
-- but there are certainly plenty of people who know that euphemism.

It'd be interesting to see some empirical data on what the effect of this 
kind of thing has been.


John

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Rod Hyde wrote:

> Surely it is ageism to imply that energetic implies ageism? In other words,
> if a person thinks that energetic implies ageism, then that person has a
> preconceived idea of a relationship between energy levels and age,
> otherwise they would not have considered such a rule in the first place.
>
> --- Rod
>
>
>
>
> On 11 December 2012 11:48, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11 December 2012 11:45, Matt Hamilton <matth at netsight.co.uk> wrote:
>>> We just submitted a job ad to a University placement scheme site and
>> there was a whole load of info there about what you can and can't say. e.g.
>> you couldn't ask for someone 'energetic' as it implied ageism. *facepalm* I
>> remember a while back someone from aUniversity IT dept looking at me in
>> horror at our job advert. They said they had to ask *exactly* the same
>> questions of each candidate regardless of how the candidate answered or
>> whether relevant or not. Seemed to me impossible to actually assess
>> someone's ability or suitability if they were that strict.
>>>
>>
>> Brilliant.  I wonder if the same rules apply to students and academics
>> they interview?
>> _______________________________________________
>> python-uk mailing list
>> python-uk at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>>
>

From jjl at pobox.com  Tue Dec 11 21:53:28 2012
From: jjl at pobox.com (John Lee)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:53:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [python-uk] [pyconuk] Python-UK Google Plus Community
In-Reply-To: <50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>
References: <CAMWL9gXYMTz-duH7wc7ud=YYLHj4FTEq0VzC3bUViWoW6ybdGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1355173681.10992.6.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
	<1355216525.2023.7.camel@roobarb.databaseassociates.co.uk>
	<50C70F85.30803@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1212112047410.2949@alice.lan>

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
[...]
> Nobody has proposed replacing the mailing list, or changing it in any way.

I don't object (I don't approve either), but: It doesn't change the 
mailing list in the same sense that Tescos opening opposite your local 
corner shop doesn't change the corner shop.  No, not in any way ;-P

(I like Tescos, by the way :-)


> Somebody just started a G+ community as well, and thought you all might like 
> to know.

I appreciate the info, thanks.


John

From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Dec 11 22:07:24 2012
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:07:24 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <1355245872.10992.54.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1355245872.10992.54.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CABjtApsAspSZrQgNNOzRHV4jcnKNSW0ndzNrQ26YrscrWr08qg@mail.gmail.com>

Russel, I actually had a read of the Equality and Diversity Act 2010.

It defines seven "protected characteristics": age, disability, gender
reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation,
marriage and civil partnership and pregnancy and maternity.

I cannot find anything in it to say that we can't try to hire smart,
capable people.



- Andy

From duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk  Tue Dec 11 22:50:54 2012
From: duncan.booth at suttoncourtenay.org.uk (Duncan Booth)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:50:54 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApsAspSZrQgNNOzRHV4jcnKNSW0ndzNrQ26YrscrWr08qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1355245872.10992.54.camel@anglides.winder.org.uk>
	<CABjtApsAspSZrQgNNOzRHV4jcnKNSW0ndzNrQ26YrscrWr08qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGicCKH9GemFjbZpyf0-DVKnBR4uO-iGyVkZvah+xafVobThw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:

> Russel, I actually had a read of the Equality and Diversity Act 2010.
>
> It defines seven "protected characteristics": age, disability, gender
> reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation,
> marriage and civil partnership and pregnancy and maternity.
>
> I cannot find anything in it to say that we can't try to hire smart,
> capable people.


I think you'll find that 'smart' could be interpreted as discrimination
against people with certain disabilities and that is one of the protected
characteristics.
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From agonzalezro at gmail.com  Wed Dec 12 00:53:34 2012
From: agonzalezro at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?w4FsZXggR29uesOhbGV6?=)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 23:53:34 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Just thanks!
Message-ID: <CAGKLn8r5iHPVZHiFi+xUSYC54xtNWrtJtbk5dmnGvcKAOpcBHA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys!

It's the first time that I went to the python-uk "confs" (let's call it
some beer between friends) :) But I really enjoyed it! I really like when I
can talk with the people as I knew them from months/lifes ago! I this is
what happened here, I felt really confortable!

I hope to see you in the next one and try to keep the interest in this
amazing framework! :)

PS: I will welcome the people from Zone 1 too! (just kidding, is a joke
that someboy will understand xD)

See you!
-- 
@agonzalezro <http://twitter.com/agonzalezro> or my
blog<http://agonzalezro.github.com>
Please, don't send me files with extensions: .doc, .docx, .xls, .xlsx, .ppt
and/or .pptx
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From chris at python.org  Mon Dec 10 19:50:36 2012
From: chris at python.org (Chris Withers)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:50:36 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50BF5694.7060906@tartley.com>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com> <50BE3713.5000502@freshfoo.com>
	<50BEF8D5.5030807@python.org>
	<7DF2CCDB-8403-4BD4-BAD8-60D3F3BF4701@voidspace.org.uk>
	<50BF5694.7060906@tartley.com>
Message-ID: <50C62EFC.9010000@python.org>

On 05/12/2012 14:13, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>> I guess you still need to provide an abstraction for these features,
>> even if only one backend supports the abstraction.
> What I'm reading suggests that if, for example, your app needs to use a
> text indexing service, then that's an external system and your
> application core should define an API which it will use to talk to it.

Isn't this just the API provided by whatever python library you choose 
to use?

> So you still get to use features like this, but you are obliged to put
> an API layer (and possible inversion of control) between them, rather
> than making the call directly from within your business logic.

What's the actual benefit of this other than an additional layer of 
complexity and one more call in the stack?

> Similarly, if your business logic needs a small number of particular
> relational-type queries, then perhaps those queries should be the API
> defined by your core for talking to persistence.

This would appear to kill the ad hoc querying that makes relational 
databases so powerful. sqlalchemy is about as much of an abstraction as 
I'd ever want...

> If your app needs many
> such queries, or general-purpose relational querying support, then
> perhaps you can create an API which supports general purpose querying
> such as the 'repository' pattern.

Again, what's the actual benefit of this other than the theoretical 
ability to switch implementations, which you'll likely never use?

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
             - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

From chris at python.org  Mon Dec 10 20:02:17 2012
From: chris at python.org (Chris Withers)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:02:17 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1212052325260.2923@alice.lan>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1212052325260.2923@alice.lan>
Message-ID: <50C631B9.4050008@python.org>

Yeah, what he said :-)

(joking aside, John has summed this all up very nicely...)

Chris

On 06/12/2012 00:57, John Lee wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>
>> The last few weeks I've been thinking about the architectural pattern
>> known as Clean, Onion, Hexagonal, or Ports'n'Adaptors
>> <http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html>
>> (http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html).
>> I'm curious if many people are applying it in the Django world?
>>
>> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of
>> our monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you
>> think it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.
>
> I have to confess I've only very lightly skimmed the article (which
> looks like it says some sensible things), but that's not going to stop
> me pontificating in over-general terms and posting a video that I liked:
>
> The best programmers I've worked with have a knack to ruthlessly pick
> the simplest possible abstractions to fit the job in hand. They never
> stop thinking to settle on any one-size-fits-all programming style. The
> problem with those two statements I just made is that everybody can read
> them and think that they agree with them. What *I* mean by simple is
> close to what Rich Hickey means in the first part of this talk (though I
> don't know enough to decide what I think about how he goes on to defend
> Clojure and its design principles in those terms):
>
> http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
>
>
> (BTW, it's a shame to hear him give security as an example of a
> separable concern, because it isn't one)
>
> The best code, you look at the functionality, then the code, and think
> "where is all the code?" and "how did such simplistic code happen to
> implement exactly what was needed?". That's different from the "OMG,
> what is all this stuff for" feeling you get from over-engineered or just
> badly-factored code. The best code is easy to change in the sense that
> changes in functionality require commensurate coding effort, and it's
> clear what code would have to change. But it is also hard to change, in
> the sense that any change that leaves the behaviour the same would
> clearly make it worse -- including adding or removing abstraction.
>
> I'd agree with Andy that not fighting too many battles with your
> framework has a lot to be said for it (and that it's maybe more
> important to nail basic coding practices of the kind you'd find in Code
> Complete than to take even a single step away from what the django
> tutorial tells you to do). But even short programs can gain simplicity
> from ignoring the framework or abstracting it a little, where it suits
> the problem, as it often does.
>
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> python-uk mailing list
> python-uk at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> ______________________________________________________________________

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
             - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

From richard at arbee-design.co.uk  Tue Dec 11 12:57:06 2012
From: richard at arbee-design.co.uk (Richard Barran)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:57:06 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python Developers - ReportLab, Wimbledon, London
In-Reply-To: <CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABjtApsFnHfMDPm7D6vCT8PAgDMGJhuTpCBHurNLmGQuW9pOrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABjtApuQWvjTBpxaDv2zZ3K-J1DuaAV13xfaoTYQUqZ6hc5aiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5960E256-385F-47D3-B978-8BB6699A400D@arbee-design.co.uk>


On 11 Dec 2012, at 11:38, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:

> On 11 December 2012 10:51, Andy Robinson <andy at reportlab.com> wrote:
>> We are looking for people who are smart, get
>> things done and are good team players.
> 
> 
> For all employers out there....  my HR guru goes to all the seminars
> on employment law, and is very current on what we can and cannot do.
> She has told me that our latest round of ads are wrong because
> explicitly asking for SMART people is discriminatory against THICK
> people.   You can ask about skills, but not about innate
> characteristics like age or sex (which we all know), and apparently,
> now, brains.
> 
> Anyone else heard this kind of total bollocks lately?  ;-)

Just say that you meant SMARTLY-DRESSED people :-)

PS Actually, bad idea. You've just dissuaded 95% of the developer population from applying for your job.

From qwertyface at gmail.com  Wed Dec 12 11:55:44 2012
From: qwertyface at gmail.com (Peter Russell)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:55:44 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] West Yorks. Python Group - Thurs. 13 December - Leeds
Message-ID: <CAHSH0FArZHYp=kRDinF8dBKkmBPiRR=oB2jaD8RmgWsULkLk-g@mail.gmail.com>

== West Yorkshire Python User Group Meeting - Thurs. 13 December ==

= Talk: Simon Davy, Unit testing Django =

Django includes a test framework that is very convenient and widely
used. It includes test database set up, fixtures, and a convenient way
of calling your via Django's framework.

However, it is actually testing your application at integration level,
rather than at unit level. Integration tests are good, but so are unit
tests! (which test smaller areas and run faster).

In this talk we'll look at three different ways to use standard unit
testing techniques when testing django applications to write actual
unit tests.

== Date and Time ==

Thursday 13 December, talk from 7:30pm.

If you want to arrive before the talk, the venue will be open from
about 6.30. We will be finished by 9, and we will be going to the pub
afterwards.

== Location ==

We will be meeting at the offices of The Test People:

Albion Court
Albion Place
Leeds
West Yorkshire,
LS1 6JL


If you have trouble getting in, please call Peter on 07763570860.

== About the Group ==

The West Yorkshire Python User Group (WYPy) have been meeting monthly
since 2007. Our meetings are free, and usually include at least one
talk, as well as a trip to the pub.

Our website is at http://wypy.org.uk . We discuss our meetings on the
Python Yorkshire and Humberside Google
Grouphttp://groups.google.com/group/python-yorks-humber/ and you can
also follow us on Twitter at @WYPython.

From sally at e-recruiter.co.uk  Wed Dec 12 16:52:47 2012
From: sally at e-recruiter.co.uk (Sally Hall)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:52:47 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python/Django meet
Message-ID: <3CADBB15C516724B99CAFBB655F71A9F2168168FD2@LSEXCHANGE.staffing.local>

Good afternoon all,

It was great to attend the Python/Django meet and to meet so many knowledgeable people.

I just wanted to say thank you for the welcome - I hope we weren't too "recruitmenty"!
It also looks like we were able to network a few of our clients with some of the attendees there, so hopefully that helps a few people.

Just wanted to say it was good to share a drink with a few of you and to see it from the other side of the fence.
I was great to see such a vibrant community and to meet a few of you in person, rather than just over the phone!

Kind Regards
Sally Hall
IT Recruitment Consultant
01582 394851
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From tartley at tartley.com  Thu Dec 13 12:28:28 2012
From: tartley at tartley.com (Jonathan Hartley)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:28:28 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] hexagonal Django
In-Reply-To: <50C631B9.4050008@python.org>
References: <50BE0CC8.2050601@tartley.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1212052325260.2923@alice.lan>
	<50C631B9.4050008@python.org>
Message-ID: <50C9BBDC.5080705@tartley.com>

Thanks everyone. I've been enlightened, encouraged and forewarned by the 
responses to my initial question. (and thanks for the Rich Hickey talk, 
I hadn't seen that one)

I absolutely empathise with the warnings to avoid needlessly creating 
extra layers or plumbing.

I have a colleague who says many of the projects where he used to work 
at Microsoft Research used this pattern, and while he liked it overall, 
if he had to find fault, they found it to cause duplication of sorts, in 
things like the persistence component mapping fields of the business 
objects into database-compatible types. Hence adding a field meant both 
changing the core business object, and changing the persistence 
component to incorporate the extra field, and also the plumbing between 
the two.

I also heed the advice to beware shoehorning problems into a single 
one-size-fits-all solution.

I also liked people who brought up particular thorny areas with Django 
in particular, such as the admin views.

However, I'm hopeful that, in my particular case at least, the 
interfaces and extra layers will be close to trivial, and any 
disadvantages may be outweighed by extracting my database/network code 
from my business logic.

I'm starting my week-long exercise on trying it out on a slice of our 
existing Django monster. I'll report back.

     Jonathan



On 10/12/2012 19:02, Chris Withers wrote:
> Yeah, what he said :-)
>
> (joking aside, John has summed this all up very nicely...)
>
> Chris
>
> On 06/12/2012 00:57, John Lee wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
>>
>>> The last few weeks I've been thinking about the architectural pattern
>>> known as Clean, Onion, Hexagonal, or Ports'n'Adaptors
>>> <http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html> 
>>>
>>> (http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html). 
>>>
>>> I'm curious if many people are applying it in the Django world?
>>>
>>> I haven't, yet, but I'm thinking of refactoring a vertical slice of
>>> our monster Django app into this style, and I'd love to hear if you
>>> think it's crazy / brilliant / obvious / old-hat, etc.
>>
>> I have to confess I've only very lightly skimmed the article (which
>> looks like it says some sensible things), but that's not going to stop
>> me pontificating in over-general terms and posting a video that I liked:
>>
>> The best programmers I've worked with have a knack to ruthlessly pick
>> the simplest possible abstractions to fit the job in hand. They never
>> stop thinking to settle on any one-size-fits-all programming style. The
>> problem with those two statements I just made is that everybody can read
>> them and think that they agree with them. What *I* mean by simple is
>> close to what Rich Hickey means in the first part of this talk (though I
>> don't know enough to decide what I think about how he goes on to defend
>> Clojure and its design principles in those terms):
>>
>> http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
>>
>>
>> (BTW, it's a shame to hear him give security as an example of a
>> separable concern, because it isn't one)
>>
>> The best code, you look at the functionality, then the code, and think
>> "where is all the code?" and "how did such simplistic code happen to
>> implement exactly what was needed?". That's different from the "OMG,
>> what is all this stuff for" feeling you get from over-engineered or just
>> badly-factored code. The best code is easy to change in the sense that
>> changes in functionality require commensurate coding effort, and it's
>> clear what code would have to change. But it is also hard to change, in
>> the sense that any change that leaves the behaviour the same would
>> clearly make it worse -- including adding or removing abstraction.
>>
>> I'd agree with Andy that not fighting too many battles with your
>> framework has a lot to be said for it (and that it's maybe more
>> important to nail basic coding practices of the kind you'd find in Code
>> Complete than to take even a single step away from what the django
>> tutorial tells you to do). But even short programs can gain simplicity
>> from ignoring the framework or abstracting it a little, where it suits
>> the problem, as it often does.
>>
>>
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> python-uk mailing list
>> python-uk at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud 
>> service.
>> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>

-- 
Jonathan Hartley    tartley at tartley.com    http://tartley.com
Made of meat.       +44 7737 062 225       twitter/skype: tartley


From salim.fadhley at baml.com  Thu Dec 13 19:30:30 2012
From: salim.fadhley at baml.com (Fadhley, Salim)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 18:30:30 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Python roles in my team @ Bank of America, Canary Wharf,
	London
Message-ID: <E9A3698CD033F747AC3A2FA6E9CBF5C504A55A4C@smtp_mail.bankofamerica.com>

I'm recruiting Python developers for my own team at Bank of America. We will be running interviews over the holiday period with a view to making hires immediately. While we do have roles for beginner Python developers we are most eager to meet experienced devs. We have positions available for both contractors and permanent employees. 

Bank of America is a very good place to be a Python developer: There is a major project which aims to replace many 3rd party systems with in-house applications built in Python. With so many critical systems already running on the Python-based framework, skills in this language are valued very highly in our company.

Our team is in charge of delivering a API and GUI tool which is used by almost every line of business within this organization. 
 
If you are interested, please contact me directly (salim.fadhley at baml.com) or add me via LinkedIn  - http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=11408420

You can also contact me after hours on 07973 710574

----------------------------------------------------------------------
This message, and any attachments, is for the intended recipient(s) only, may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or proprietary and subject to important terms and conditions available at http://www.bankofamerica.com/emaildisclaimer.   If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message.

From tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk  Mon Dec 17 21:39:23 2012
From: tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk (Tony Ibbs)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 20:39:23 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] Next CamPUG meeting: Tuesday 8th January 2013 (note the
	date)
Message-ID: <A188EEF1-DC6B-4C4C-A16D-A606758D9531@tibsnjoan.co.uk>

From the Cambridge and East Anglia Python User Group's google group:

The next meeting will be Tuesday 8th January, 7.30pm at RealVNC (http://tinyurl.com/realvncoffices). Note that this is not the first Tuesday, but the second.

We normally stop about 9.30pm, and go on to the pub.

This will be a "talks" meeting. Please feel free to volunteer a talk via the group, or just turn up with something - anything from a 5 minute lightning talk to an hour or so is welcome.

Meetings after that should be:

	? Tuesday 5th February, a coding/doing stuff meeting.
	? Tuesday 5th March, a talks meeting
	? Tuesday 2nd April, a coding/doing stuff meeting
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, and joy in all things Pythonical,
Tibs

From tom at viner.tv  Mon Dec 31 18:13:32 2012
From: tom at viner.tv (Tom Viner)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:13:32 +0000
Subject: [python-uk] New Year's London Dojo Next MONDAY
Message-ID: <CANBSuyFL+RFooji0L0VV6_Y-HsU7HSGQtjqeLu45364F8+i+XA@mail.gmail.com>

Greeting Christmasy Pythonistas,

I hope you've had a lovely holiday and are raring to go for some group
coding, dojo style.

This time we're dojoing on a Monday (the 7th), rather than the usual
Thursday - more convenient for Fry-It, who kindly supply their office for
our nefarious purposes.

30 tickets, hot off the presses, see you in a week:
http://ldnpydojo.eventwax.com/london-python-code-dojo-season-4-episode-5

Cheers, and Happy New Year!
Tom
@tomviner - @ldnpydojo
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