From simon at brunningonline.net Thu Jan 5 20:03:17 2006 From: simon at brunningonline.net (Simon Brunning) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:03:17 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Reminder - London Python meetup next Tuesday Message-ID: <8c7f10c60601051103k72f47f37jdaad97ce89da2c6b@mail.gmail.com> http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/archives/001991.html -- Cheers, Simon B, simon at brunningonline.net, http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ From toshitst at terra.com.br Mon Jan 16 13:29:34 2006 From: toshitst at terra.com.br (Toshinobu Tasoko) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:29:34 -0200 Subject: [python-uk] =?iso-8859-1?q?_mala_direta=2C_lista_de_emails=2C_div?= Message-ID: <000501c61a98$82497080$0a00a8c0@TSTauditores.com> Prezados Senhores, Somos uma empresa de Consultoria e Auditoria altamente especializada na ?rea tribut?ria de combust?veis derivados de petr?leo. Editamos um livro nessa ?rea e estamos ? procura de uma empresa que forne?a e-mails e endere?os completos de empresas de diversos segmentos, para venda de livros via e-mail: 1. Usinas Sucro-Alcooleiras; 2. Destilarias de ?lcool; 3. Empresas de Transportes de Passageiros + Sindicato da Categoria; 4. Empresas de Transportes de Cargas = Sindicato da Categoria; 5. Engenharia e Terraplenagem + Sindicato da Categoria; 6. Constru??es Pesadas (tipo Construtora Camargo Correia, OAS etc) + Sindicato da Categoria; 7. Pedreiras + Sindicato da Categoria; 8. Empresas de Navega??o + Sindicatos da Categoria; 9. Escrit?rios de Contabilidade; 10. Escrit?rios de Advocacias; 11. Escrit?rios de Consultoria Tribut?ria. Aguardo manifesta??o, Toshinobu Tasoko 11 - 4585 4655 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-uk/attachments/20060116/f75465f2/attachment.htm From ms at cerenity.org Wed Jan 18 22:26:02 2006 From: ms at cerenity.org (Michael) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:26:02 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python Meetup Manchester? Message-ID: <200601182126.02555.ms@cerenity.org> Hi, Anyone up for a Python meetup in Manchester? Say Wednesday 8th February, 7pm, Lass O'Gowrie [1]? (Unless anyone has a better suggestion? :-) [1] http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/11/1144/Lass_OGowrie/Manchester If so, I'll put up a page where people can sign up (if they want :-). Regards, Michael. -- http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Home From simon at titanic.co.uk Wed Jan 18 22:58:02 2006 From: simon at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:58:02 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python Meetup Manchester? In-Reply-To: <200601182126.02555.ms@cerenity.org> References: <200601182126.02555.ms@cerenity.org> Message-ID: <43CEB9EA.1040205@titanic.co.uk> > Anyone up for a Python meetup in Manchester? Say Wednesday 8th February, 7pm, > Lass O'Gowrie [1]? (Unless anyone has a better suggestion? :-) > > [1] http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/11/1144/Lass_OGowrie/Manchester > > If so, I'll put up a page where people can sign up (if they want :-). Yes please :-) It's in my diary From tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk Wed Jan 18 22:29:36 2006 From: tibs at tibsnjoan.co.uk (Tony Ibbs) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:29:36 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python UK 2006 In-Reply-To: <4384D970.5000202@reportlab.com> References: <8c7f10c60511230649r551774e4p@mail.gmail.com> <4384D970.5000202@reportlab.com> Message-ID: <7BB106F3-5D98-4021-B7F4-579089B31E8F@tibsnjoan.co.uk> The ACCU conference web pages haven't released the schedule yet, but since I can't afford (in various ways) to go to the whole thing, I thought someone here might know which days are being used for the PythonUK conference. Or, looking at it another way, when is Guido giving his keynote? Tibs From andy at reportlab.com Thu Jan 19 10:37:15 2006 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:37:15 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python UK 2006 In-Reply-To: <7BB106F3-5D98-4021-B7F4-579089B31E8F@tibsnjoan.co.uk> References: <8c7f10c60511230649r551774e4p@mail.gmail.com> <4384D970.5000202@reportlab.com> <7BB106F3-5D98-4021-B7F4-579089B31E8F@tibsnjoan.co.uk> Message-ID: <43CF5DCB.9080100@reportlab.com> Tony Ibbs wrote: > The ACCU conference web pages haven't released the schedule yet, but > since I can't afford (in various ways) to go to the whole thing, I > thought > someone here might know which days are being used for the PythonUK > conference. Or, looking at it another way, when is Guido giving his > keynote? > Python is Wednesday and Thursday at present. I guess Guido will be one of those days two other keynote speakers have been changed around and I am not 100% sure as of today. It's my job to write up a separate Python page and I really ought to do it about now, so consider me 'reminded' ;-) I'll at least post the tentative schedule here on this list by tomorrow. - Andy From ms at cerenity.org Thu Jan 19 22:31:51 2006 From: ms at cerenity.org (Michael) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:31:51 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Python Meetup Manchester? In-Reply-To: <200601182236.48357.ms@cerenity.org> References: <200601182126.02555.ms@cerenity.org> <43CEB9EA.1040205@titanic.co.uk> <200601182236.48357.ms@cerenity.org> Message-ID: <200601192131.52620.ms@cerenity.org> Just realised I accidentally stripped python-uk from the response list here :-) Doh! Don't I feel silly ! :-) On Wednesday 18 January 2006 21:58, you wrote: > > Anyone up for a Python meetup in Manchester? Say Wednesday 8th > > February, 7pm, Lass O'Gowrie [1]? (Unless anyone has a better > > suggestion? :-) > > > > [1] > > http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/11/1144/Lass_OGowrie/Manchester > > > > If so, I'll put up a page where people can sign up (if they want :-). > > Yes please :-) > > It's in my diary Cool :-) I've put a page up here for people to sign up (if they want), and add comments regarding things they'd like to see or might bring with them. link:: http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&postid=1137623603 See you there! Michael. -- http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Home From simon at titanic.co.uk Tue Jan 24 15:59:35 2006 From: simon at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:59:35 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> Anyone in the UK using Turbogears? Sim From doug at pigeonhold.com Tue Jan 24 16:23:22 2006 From: doug at pigeonhold.com (Doug Winter) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:23:22 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> Message-ID: <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> Simon Faulkner wrote: > Anyone in the UK using Turbogears? Yep, and it's pretty good too. Why do you ask? doug. -- "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink" -- George Orwell, Horizon, April 1946. From simon at titanic.co.uk Tue Jan 24 20:21:17 2006 From: simon at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:21:17 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> Message-ID: <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> > Yep, and it's pretty good too. Why do you ask? I often need to write small, simple databases and have friends 'foaming' about RoR. If TurboGears can give me pretty much what RoR would but will also allow me to use my (pathetic) Python skills then I will invest some time having a go... Sim From ms at cerenity.org Tue Jan 24 23:36:57 2006 From: ms at cerenity.org (Michael) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:36:57 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> References: <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> Message-ID: <200601242236.57388.ms@cerenity.org> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 19:21, Simon Faulkner wrote: > > Yep, and it's pretty good too. Why do you ask? > > I often need to write small, simple databases and have friends 'foaming' > about RoR. > > If TurboGears can give me pretty much what RoR would but will also allow > me to use my (pathetic) Python skills then I will invest some time > having a go... From what I hear/see they're pretty close. I've not used either, but having looked at both they cover the same problem space. TurboGears is also really a distribution of a bunch of (generally mature) Useful Stuff (tm) that I've seen lots of people rave about for some time (CherryPy for example). Michael. From ms at cerenity.org Wed Jan 25 00:48:27 2006 From: ms at cerenity.org (Michael) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:48:27 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <200601242236.57388.ms@cerenity.org> References: <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <200601242236.57388.ms@cerenity.org> Message-ID: <200601242348.27111.ms@cerenity.org> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 19:21, Simon Faulkner wrote: > > > Yep, and it's pretty good too. Why do you ask? > > > > I often need to write small, simple databases and have friends 'foaming' > > about RoR. > > > > If TurboGears can give me pretty much what RoR would but will also allow > > me to use my (pathetic) Python skills then I will invest some time > > having a go... I just gave it a go. From download to completing the 20 minute wiki, the timestamps on my filesystem say 30 minutes - I guess I read/type slow ;-) FWIW, I went to the RoR talk at Euro OSCON, and as far as I can tell (having now done the tutorial), they really are more or less equivalent. I'd definitely give it a go if I were you. I might have a bit more of a play between now and the Python Meetup Manchester[1] (hint, hint ;-) . [1] http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&postid=1137623603 (I'm half tempted to ditch using the port of cgi_app that I use on a handful of projects now as a result of this, *IF* it'll work on sourceforge...) Regards, Michael. From mala4000 at bol.com.br Wed Jan 25 06:43:10 2006 From: mala4000 at bol.com.br (Lidiana Alves) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 02:43:10 -0300 Subject: [python-uk] Modelos prontos de cartas e e-mails comerciais Message-ID: <20060125054427.64251780D@sankara2.bol.com.br> Modelos prontos de cartas e e-mails comerciais. Visite o site: http://www.gueb.de/cartascomerciais E veja alguns dos modelos abaixo: Procura??o Carta de Recomenda??o Convite para Exposi??o ou Feira AGRADECIMENTOS E CONDOL?NCIAS ? Agradecimento de convite e felicita??es; ? Agradecimento e convite para solenidade; ? Agradecimento de mensagem de p?sames; ? Agradecimento de pedido; ? Agradecimento e boas vindas a cliente novo; ? Agradecimento por mensagem de felicita??o; ? Confraterniza??o; ? Congratula??es; ? Cumprimentos por resultados comerciais; ? Felicita??es pessoais; ? P?sames; http://www.gueb.de/cartascomerciais ? Votos de boas festas Voltar ao topo http://www.gueb.de/cartascomerciais CARTAS DE RECLAMA??O ? Reclama??o de compra de produto; ? Reclama??o por atraso; ? Reclama??o por aumento de pre?o; ? Reclama??o por defici?ncia t?cnica; ? Reclama??o por demora na entrega; ? Reclama??o por diverg?ncia; ? Respostas a reclama??es; Voltar ao topo COMUNICADOS E AVISOS ? Advert?ncia a funcion?rio; ? Aviso de aumento de pre?os; ? Aviso de incorpora??o da empresa; ? Aviso de lan?amento de produto e servi?o; ? Aviso de mudan?a de endere?o; ? Aviso de ocorr?ncia de acidente; ? Aviso de t?rmino de contrato; ? Aviso gen?rico; ? Comunica??o de atraso no envio de mercadorias; ? Comunica??o de devolu??o de duplicata; ? Comunica??o de devolu??o de mercadoria; ? Comunica??o de envio de mercadorias; ? Comunica??o de envio de parte do pedido; ? Comunica??o de extravio de mercadorias; ? Comunica??o de f?rias coletivas; ? Comunica??o de liquida??o de d?bito; ? Comunica??o de novo servi?o de televendas; ? Comunica??o de reuni?o; ? Confirma??o de pedido; ? Resposta ao comunicado de reuni?o; Voltar ao topo http://www.gueb.de/cartascomerciais EMPREGO ? Aviso pr?vio de dispensa de empregado: 1, 2, e 3; ? Carta de recomenda??o; ? Pedido de demiss?o: 1 e 2; ? Solicita??o de emprego: 1, 2 e 3; ? Solicita??o de est?gio; Voltar ao topo ATESTADOS E DECLARA??ES ? Atestado de bons antecedentes; ? Atestado m?dico; ? Declara??o negativa de v?nculo empregat?cio; ? Declara??o para cancelamento de protesto; ? Declara??o para fins escolares; Voltar ao topo * Agradecimentos e condol?ncias * Atestados e Declara??es * Cartas de Cobran?as * Cartas de Reclama??o * Cartas em Ingl?s * Comunicados e Avisos * Convites * Documentos * Emprego * Propostas * Solicita??es e pedidos * Viagem CARTAS DE COBRAN?A ? Cartas de cobran?a: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 e 8; ? Encaminhamento de cobran?a a protesto; ? Oferecimento de servi?o de cobran?a; ? Recebimento de d?bito pendente; Voltar ao topo CARTAS EM INGL?S ? Cancelamento de pedido; ? Carta de demiss?o; ? Carta de refer?ncia; ? Curriculum vitae; ? Pedido de produto: 1 e 2; ? Reclama??o de assinatura de publica??o; ? Remessa de valores; ? Resposta a pedido de produto; ? Resposta a solicita??o de emprego; ? Resposta a solicita??o de informa??es; ? Resposta a solicita??o de pre?os; ? Solicita??o de emprego; ? Solicita??o de informa??es comerciais; ? Solicita??o de licen?a; ? Solicita??o de pre?os; Voltar ao topo CONVITES http://www.gueb.de/cartascomerciais ? Convite para batizado; ? Convite para evento social; ? Convite para exposi??o ou feira; ? Convite para lan?amento de produto; ? Resposta negativa a convite; ? Resposta positiva a convite; Voltar ao topo DOCUMENTOS ? Ata; ? Contrato de loca??o de im?vel; ? Contrato firmado acordo; ? Contrato social; ? Edital de convoca??o; ? Procura??o; ? Recibo de venda de autom?vel; Voltar ao topo PROPOSTAS ? Proposta de abertura de conta corrente; ? Proposta de presta??o de servi?os: 1 e 2; ? Proposta de representa??o comercial: 1 e 2; ? Proposta para ocupa??o de cargo; ? Proposta para recupera??o de clientes; ? Resposta negativa ? proposta de representa??o: 1 e 2; ? Resposta positiva ? proposta de representa??o: 1 e 2; Voltar ao topo http://www.gueb.de/cartascomerciais SOLICITA??E E PEDIDOS ? Pedido de desculpas; ? Pedido de mercadorias; ? Resposta a pedido de carta de apresenta??o; ? Resposta a solicita??o de c?pias de documentos; ? Resposta a solicita??o de or?amento; ? Resposta negativa a solicita??o de informa??es comerciais; ? Resposta positiva a solicita??o de informa??es comerciais; ? Solicita??o de atestado de Idoneidade Financeira; ? Solicita??o de cat?logos de pre?os; ? Solicita??o de cr?dito; ? Solicita??o de informa??es comerciais; ? Solicita??o de informa??es sobre curso; ? Solicita??o de listas de pre?os; ? Solicita??es de refer?ncias pessoais; ? Suspens?o de pedido de mercadoria; Voltar ao topo VIAGEM ? Informa??es sobre requisitos de viagem; ? Pedido de reserva em hotel; ? Recupera??o de bagagem extraviada; ? Reclama??o de maus tratos ? bagagem; ? Recupera??o de objeto esquecido em hotel; ? Reserva de passagens; ? Roteiro tur?stico. http://www.gueb.de/cartascomerciais From doug at isotoma.com Wed Jan 25 08:00:27 2006 From: doug at isotoma.com (Doug Winter) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:00:27 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> Message-ID: <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> Simon Faulkner wrote: >>Yep, and it's pretty good too. Why do you ask? > > > I often need to write small, simple databases and have friends 'foaming' > about RoR. > > If TurboGears can give me pretty much what RoR would but will also allow > me to use my (pathetic) Python skills then I will invest some time > having a go... RoR and TG share the explict MVC model as a one-size-fits-all approach to web development, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your application I guess. TG does seem to provide everything you need to write a complex web application, and it does provide a huge amount of the scaffolding for you. The design decisions seem to be reasonable ones, and they've taken a very pragmatic approach as far as I can tell. The KID templating language is a good one, Cherrypy has so far provided all the features i need from the environment, and I am pleasantly surprised by SQLObject. I think the great advantage of the explicit MVC model (and I believe RoR is basically the same here) is that it's very obvious where things go. MVC Is used as something of a Golden Hammer in both applications, which ultimately will lead to issues I suspect - however compared to current "enterprise" offerings (i.e Java) it's very lightly architected. Performance is acceptable, and with a postgres or mysql back-end you should be able to scale horizontally for larger applications, although I bet you'll be on the bleeding edge right now if you try that. Cheers, Doug. -- doug at isotoma.com / Isotoma, Open Source Software Consulting Tel: 020 7620 1446 / Mobile: 07879 423002 / Fax: 020 79006980 Skype: dougwinter / http://www.isotoma.com Lincoln House, 75 Westminster Bridge Road, London, SE1 7HS From simon at titanic.co.uk Wed Jan 25 08:51:14 2006 From: simon at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:51:14 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> Message-ID: <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> > RoR and TG share the explict MVC model as a one-size-fits-all approach > to web development, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on > your application I guess. TG does seem to provide everything you need > to write a complex web application, and it does provide a huge amount of > the scaffolding for you. Ha! Just read (some of) your blog Doug and it puts a lot of stuff into perspective - ty :-) I think that a lot of my requirements are at the 'another todo' list (I laughed at that one!) What ever I decide it's got to be better than Access... From doug at isotoma.com Wed Jan 25 09:29:59 2006 From: doug at isotoma.com (Doug Winter) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:29:59 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> Message-ID: <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> Simon Faulkner wrote: >>RoR and TG share the explict MVC model as a one-size-fits-all approach >>to web development, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on >>your application I guess. TG does seem to provide everything you need >>to write a complex web application, and it does provide a huge amount of >>the scaffolding for you. > > > Ha! Just read (some of) your blog Doug and it puts a lot of stuff into > perspective - ty :-) I was trying to be more polite in a general email than I am on my blog :) For everyone else, Simon is referring to: http://adju.st/entry/web-frameworks-and-why-most-of-them-suck I think, where I slag off TG as well as almost everything else. > I think that a lot of my requirements are at the 'another todo' list (I > laughed at that one!) I just wrote a long response to this, and then decided it ought to be a blog entry instead, since I was planning one anyhow: http://adju.st/entry/sucky-web-frameworks-redux So consider that a reply to this :) > What ever I decide it's got to be better than Access... Oh yes. doug. -- doug at isotoma.com / Isotoma, Open Source Software Consulting Tel: 020 7620 1446 / Mobile: 07879 423002 / Fax: 020 79006980 Skype: dougwinter / http://www.isotoma.com Lincoln House, 75 Westminster Bridge Road, London, SE1 7HS From simon at titanic.co.uk Wed Jan 25 09:38:30 2006 From: simon at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:38:30 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> Message-ID: <43D73906.4080507@titanic.co.uk> > http://adju.st/entry/sucky-web-frameworks-redux I feel like the guy on the Fast Show picking his football team! Everytime I decide to go with a certain framework someone else makes a good case for a different one and after I faff around for weeks I end up writing it in 2 days in naked Python cgi LOL From peter at fry-it.com Wed Jan 25 13:20:29 2006 From: peter at fry-it.com (Peter Bengtsson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:20:29 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> Message-ID: Doug, I've read your blog and your replies here with great interest. The points you make about understanding and progress are very interesting. No wonder [some] people think Zope sucks because Acquisition is so difficult to grok; but now after having understood its power I feel this is one of Zope's best feature. The reason I didn't give up was because I had a friend whom I trusted that I persist. If it wasn't for him I would probably have avoided zope quite early. I'm wondering Doug, what's your take on zope3 vs. TG? On 1/25/06, Doug Winter wrote: > Simon Faulkner wrote: > >>RoR and TG share the explict MVC model as a one-size-fits-all approach > >>to web development, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on > >>your application I guess. TG does seem to provide everything you need > >>to write a complex web application, and it does provide a huge amount of > >>the scaffolding for you. > > > > > > Ha! Just read (some of) your blog Doug and it puts a lot of stuff into > > perspective - ty :-) > > I was trying to be more polite in a general email than I am on my blog > :) For everyone else, Simon is referring to: > > http://adju.st/entry/web-frameworks-and-why-most-of-them-suck > > I think, where I slag off TG as well as almost everything else. > > > I think that a lot of my requirements are at the 'another todo' list (I > > laughed at that one!) > > I just wrote a long response to this, and then decided it ought to be a > blog entry instead, since I was planning one anyhow: > > http://adju.st/entry/sucky-web-frameworks-redux > > So consider that a reply to this :) > > > What ever I decide it's got to be better than Access... > > Oh yes. > > doug. > > -- > doug at isotoma.com / Isotoma, Open Source Software Consulting > Tel: 020 7620 1446 / Mobile: 07879 423002 / Fax: 020 79006980 > Skype: dougwinter / http://www.isotoma.com > Lincoln House, 75 Westminster Bridge Road, London, SE1 7HS > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com From jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk Wed Jan 25 15:57:11 2006 From: jon+python-uk at unequivocal.co.uk (Jon Ribbens) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:57:11 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D73906.4080507@titanic.co.uk> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <43D73906.4080507@titanic.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060125145711.GE32638@snowy.squish.net> Simon Faulkner wrote: > > http://adju.st/entry/sucky-web-frameworks-redux > > I feel like the guy on the Fast Show picking his football team! > > Everytime I decide to go with a certain framework someone else makes a > good case for a different one and after I faff around for weeks I end up > writing it in 2 days in naked Python cgi LOL You sound like the sort of person who should be using the one I wrote, http://jonpy.sf.net/ ;-) It's designed to be lightweight and easy to use as well as powerful (it's very simple, nothing like the complexity of Zope etc). Just a quick plug ;-) From simon at titanic.co.uk Wed Jan 25 16:41:51 2006 From: simon at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:41:51 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <20060125145711.GE32638@snowy.squish.net> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <43D73906.4080507@titanic.co.uk> <20060125145711.GE32638@snowy.squish.net> Message-ID: <43D79C3F.1070600@titanic.co.uk> > You sound like the sort of person who should be using the one I wrote, > http://jonpy.sf.net/ ;-) It's designed to be lightweight and easy to > use as well as powerful (it's very simple, nothing like the complexity > of Zope etc). > > Just a quick plug ;-) LOL - you should be on Parkinson with a plug like that! I'm just reading the site now. Are you going to the Manchester do? I would love a quick chat about it... Sim From doug at isotoma.com Thu Jan 26 11:00:30 2006 From: doug at isotoma.com (Doug Winter) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:00:30 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> Message-ID: <43D89DBE.7040909@isotoma.com> Peter Bengtsson wrote: > I've read your blog and your replies here with great interest. > The points you make about understanding and progress are very interesting. > No wonder [some] people think Zope sucks because Acquisition is so > difficult to grok; but now after having understood its power I feel > this is one of Zope's best feature. The reason I didn't give up was > because I had a friend whom I trusted that I persist. If it wasn't for > him I would probably have avoided zope quite early. Hi Peter - I knew someone would defend Zope, should have guessed it would be you :) I don't think difficulty of grokking is the problem with Acquisition really. I think it's a good attempt at solving a real problem that ultimately creates more problems than it solves. The problem acquisition tries to solve is a real issue - how do you provide "context" in a web application? Zope satisfies these requirements using Acquisition. My problem with it is that it is too promiscuous - your namespace ends up massively polluted, leading to name collision between multiple products. I spend a lot of my time working with Zope and this leads to real issues - only yesterday I had two products that had coincidentally named a method the same (one as a method one as a PythonScript) leading to bizarre failures when one acquired the other's version of the method. Ultimately I think Acquisition is a Glorious Failure - it was a brave attempt to solve a difficult problem, but it just doesn't scale. Zope Corp have realised this, and Zope 3 is fundamentally different, using Adaptation instead of Acquisition to provide a mechanism for object location. > I'm wondering Doug, what's your take on zope3 vs. TG? Zope 3 looks very good - they've fundamentally addressed the core architectural problems in Zope 2. I seriously dislike the XML configuration files, which might seem like a minor point but it really gets on my nerves. Zope 3 has a head start on the other frameworks like TG, in that there is a large body of existing code (such as CMF) which can be ported to it from Zope 2. Lots of that code is very crufty and horrible though, so how much of an advantage that is depends a lot on the extent of any rewriting that goes on I guess. TG is going to be using RuleDispatch instead of Adaptation, which is going to be really interesting. I have no idea how well that's going to pan out in actual use. There have been a lot of complaints about the diversity of web solutions for Python, as opposed to Ruby where there is just the one, as if somehow it was a bad thing. It may be confusing for newcomers, but I can't honestly believe that the genetic diversity of solutions, all able to take the best of each other's ideas, can be anything other than a very good thing. Cheers, Doug. -- doug at isotoma.com / Isotoma, Open Source Software Consulting Tel: 020 7620 1446 / Mobile: 07879 423002 / Fax: 020 79006980 Skype: dougwinter / http://www.isotoma.com Lincoln House, 75 Westminster Bridge Road, London, SE1 7HS From doug.bromley at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 13:46:38 2006 From: doug.bromley at gmail.com (Doug Bromley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:46:38 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D89DBE.7040909@isotoma.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <43D89DBE.7040909@isotoma.com> Message-ID: <288425520601260446i6910058ci8b4bd5b984aea52a@mail.gmail.com> Oh dear. I've been investing lots of time recently in Rails. Now I find out TG is just as good and its in the language I know. On 1/26/06, Doug Winter wrote: > Peter Bengtsson wrote: > > I've read your blog and your replies here with great interest. > > The points you make about understanding and progress are very interesting. > > No wonder [some] people think Zope sucks because Acquisition is so > > difficult to grok; but now after having understood its power I feel > > this is one of Zope's best feature. The reason I didn't give up was > > because I had a friend whom I trusted that I persist. If it wasn't for > > him I would probably have avoided zope quite early. > > Hi Peter - I knew someone would defend Zope, should have guessed it > would be you :) > > I don't think difficulty of grokking is the problem with Acquisition > really. I think it's a good attempt at solving a real problem that > ultimately creates more problems than it solves. The problem > acquisition tries to solve is a real issue - how do you provide > "context" in a web application? > > Zope satisfies these requirements using Acquisition. My problem with it > is that it is too promiscuous - your namespace ends up massively > polluted, leading to name collision between multiple products. > > I spend a lot of my time working with Zope and this leads to real issues > - only yesterday I had two products that had coincidentally named a > method the same (one as a method one as a PythonScript) leading to > bizarre failures when one acquired the other's version of the method. > > Ultimately I think Acquisition is a Glorious Failure - it was a brave > attempt to solve a difficult problem, but it just doesn't scale. Zope > Corp have realised this, and Zope 3 is fundamentally different, using > Adaptation instead of Acquisition to provide a mechanism for object > location. > > > I'm wondering Doug, what's your take on zope3 vs. TG? > > Zope 3 looks very good - they've fundamentally addressed the core > architectural problems in Zope 2. I seriously dislike the XML > configuration files, which might seem like a minor point but it really > gets on my nerves. > > Zope 3 has a head start on the other frameworks like TG, in that there > is a large body of existing code (such as CMF) which can be ported to it > from Zope 2. Lots of that code is very crufty and horrible though, so > how much of an advantage that is depends a lot on the extent of any > rewriting that goes on I guess. > > TG is going to be using RuleDispatch instead of Adaptation, which is > going to be really interesting. I have no idea how well that's going to > pan out in actual use. > > There have been a lot of complaints about the diversity of web solutions > for Python, as opposed to Ruby where there is just the one, as if > somehow it was a bad thing. It may be confusing for newcomers, but I > can't honestly believe that the genetic diversity of solutions, all able > to take the best of each other's ideas, can be anything other than a > very good thing. > > Cheers, > > Doug. > > -- > doug at isotoma.com / Isotoma, Open Source Software Consulting > Tel: 020 7620 1446 / Mobile: 07879 423002 / Fax: 020 79006980 > Skype: dougwinter / http://www.isotoma.com > Lincoln House, 75 Westminster Bridge Road, London, SE1 7HS > _______________________________________________ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > -- Wisdom is the reward you get for a lifetime of listening when you'd have preferred to talk. From andy at reportlab.com Thu Jan 26 13:56:12 2006 From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:56:12 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <288425520601260446i6910058ci8b4bd5b984aea52a@mail.gmail.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <43D89DBE.7040909@isotoma.com> <288425520601260446i6910058ci8b4bd5b984aea52a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43D8C6EC.5000606@reportlab.com> Doug Bromley wrote: > Oh dear. I've been investing lots of time recently in Rails. Now I > find out TG is just as good and its in the language I know. My own 2p worth is that Django is also excellent and 'does what it says on the tin'. Unfortunately it was sufficiently good that my resolution to do the same app in both and give them equal learning time fizzled out halfway. In particular Django's admin interface ROCKS - it saved weeks on a project already and wowed a customer. - Andy Robinson From mamading at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 02:04:06 2006 From: mamading at gmail.com (Mamading Ceesay) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 01:04:06 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> Message-ID: <57a935970601271704n730f964fu@mail.gmail.com> On 25/01/06, Doug Winter wrote: > > I think the great advantage of the explicit MVC model (and I believe RoR > is basically the same here) is that it's very obvious where things go. > Absolutely spot-on! > > Performance is acceptable, and with a postgres or mysql back-end you > should be able to scale horizontally for larger applications, although I > bet you'll be on the bleeding edge right now if you try that. > Perhaps. Remi (of CherryPy fame) does have an enterprise deployment of a CherryPy based web app that's been in production for years. Said deployment happens to be down the road from me incidentally. -- Mamading Ceesay "Isn't a state that keeps files on innocent persons a police state?" -- David Mery - Innocent In London http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html Radio Interview with David Mery http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6963.php From mamading at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 02:10:04 2006 From: mamading at gmail.com (Mamading Ceesay) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 01:10:04 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <20060125145711.GE32638@snowy.squish.net> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <43D73906.4080507@titanic.co.uk> <20060125145711.GE32638@snowy.squish.net> Message-ID: <57a935970601271710i2aaed93cg@mail.gmail.com> On 25/01/06, Jon Ribbens wrote: > > You sound like the sort of person who should be using the one I wrote, > http://jonpy.sf.net/ ;-) It's designed to be lightweight and easy to > use as well as powerful (it's very simple, nothing like the complexity > of Zope etc). > IIRC, jonpy supports fastcgi amongst other things. I read a good piece about fastcgi not too long ago: http://tinyurl.com/a6uuf -- Mamading Ceesay "Isn't a state that keeps files on innocent persons a police state?" -- David Mery - Innocent In London http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html Radio Interview with David Mery http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6963.php From mamading at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 02:14:27 2006 From: mamading at gmail.com (Mamading Ceesay) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 01:14:27 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D89DBE.7040909@isotoma.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <43D89DBE.7040909@isotoma.com> Message-ID: <57a935970601271714m67d52cd1x@mail.gmail.com> On 26/01/06, Doug Winter wrote: > > There have been a lot of complaints about the diversity of web solutions > for Python, as opposed to Ruby where there is just the one, as if > somehow it was a bad thing. It may be confusing for newcomers, but I > can't honestly believe that the genetic diversity of solutions, all able > to take the best of each other's ideas, can be anything other than a > very good thing. > The friendly competition between Django and TurboGears has been good for both of them as they have each moved to close the perceived gaps in functionality vs the other. It is also causing other (emerging) frameworks to raise their game (all I'm saying that some very interesting conversation can be had at the London Python Meetups!). -- Mamading Ceesay "Isn't a state that keeps files on innocent persons a police state?" -- David Mery - Innocent In London http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html Radio Interview with David Mery http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6963.php From mamading at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 02:32:35 2006 From: mamading at gmail.com (Mamading Ceesay) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 01:32:35 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> Message-ID: <57a935970601271732i1ad3625dj@mail.gmail.com> On 25/01/06, Doug Winter wrote: > > I just wrote a long response to this, and then decided it ought to be a > blog entry instead, since I was planning one anyhow: > > http://adju.st/entry/sucky-web-frameworks-redux > Knowing something of your history with Zope and more recently with Twisted, I was quite surprised to read this. I guess it's more evidence to back Alastair Cockburn's thesis that software development is a cooperative game ( http://tinyurl.com/ex2pz ). If you can't get other developers to cooperate with you due to your choice of framework, changing your framework is the socially sound thing to do even if it is a backward step architecturally. Of course, you can go too far with that sort of thing and wind up coding PHP! ;-) -- Mamading Ceesay "Isn't a state that keeps files on innocent persons a police state?" -- David Mery - Innocent In London http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html Radio Interview with David Mery http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6963.php From jjl at pobox.com Sat Jan 28 15:03:57 2006 From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:03:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: <57a935970601271732i1ad3625dj@mail.gmail.com> References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <57a935970601271732i1ad3625dj@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jan 2006, Mamading Ceesay wrote: > On 25/01/06, Doug Winter wrote: [...] > > http://adju.st/entry/sucky-web-frameworks-redux > > Knowing something of your history with Zope and more recently with > Twisted, I was quite surprised to read this. I guess it's more > evidence to back Alastair Cockburn's thesis that software development > is a cooperative game ( http://tinyurl.com/ex2pz ). If you can't get > other developers to cooperate with you due to your choice of > framework, changing your framework is the socially sound thing to do > even if it is a backward step architecturally. Of course, you can go > too far with that sort of thing and wind up coding PHP! ;-) "...all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw John From mamading at gmail.com Sun Jan 29 03:08:56 2006 From: mamading at gmail.com (Mamading Ceesay) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 02:08:56 +0000 Subject: [python-uk] Turbogears In-Reply-To: References: <43D640D7.2090404@titanic.co.uk> <43D6466A.4000101@pigeonhold.com> <43D67E2D.4060608@titanic.co.uk> <43D7220B.5000607@isotoma.com> <43D72DF2.6080905@titanic.co.uk> <43D73707.1020002@isotoma.com> <57a935970601271732i1ad3625dj@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57a935970601281808l430c0756r@mail.gmail.com> On 28/01/06, John J Lee wrote: > > "...all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw > Too true. Unfortunately unreasonable men often find plenty of knives and arrows in their back. -- Mamading Ceesay "Isn't a state that keeps files on innocent persons a police state?" -- David Mery - Innocent In London http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html Radio Interview with David Mery http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6963.php