[python-committers] Timeline to vote for a governance PEP

[Brett Cannon]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:53, Paul Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 15:25, Steve Dower <steve.dower at python.org> wrote:
> > For example, right now, I'm leaning towards 8013, 8010, 8016, 8011,
> > 8012, 8015, 8014. But since some are still in flux (particularly 8016),
> > that could change. And my core rationale is basically how likely we are
> > to be able to fill the roles created by the model.
>
> As one example of my confusion here,
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8016/ is currently a 404. So where
> are you seeing something you can express a preference on? Presumably
> you're looking at the raw data in github?
>
> I have limited time, and I feel like we were promised a deadline after
> which we could review what was being proposed, and discuss the
> proposals in a public forum. After that, there would be a vote. But at
> this point in time, I'm confused about:
>
> 1. When the proposals will be finalised and published.
>

We were hoping by now already, but unfortunately the voting discussion has
gone on longer than I think anyone planned for.


> 2. Where the discussion(s) will be taking place.
>

Discourse and here.


>
> PEP 8001 says that the vote will take place in the 2 weeks between 16
> Nov and 30 Nov. PEP 8000 states that the following proposals exist:
>
> PEP 8010 - The BDFL Governance Model
> PEP 8011 - Python Governance Model Lead by Trio of Pythonistas
> PEP 8012 - The Community Governance Model
> PEP 8013 - The External Governance Model
> PEP 8014 - The Commons Governance Model
> PEP 8015 - Organization of the Python community
>
> but claims that 8010 and 8012 are placeholders - looking at the PEPs
> themselves, this seems to be untrue.
>

It's outdated. I think Barry just hasn't thought of updating it yet since
it's just an index into the 801X PEPs which you can view in the PEP index
directly without any special background info (I know I personally forgot
that PEP 8000 even listed the various PEPs).


>
> I'd like to spend some time reviewing the proposals and understanding
> the options we're being asked to vote on, but I do *not* want to waste
> time reviewing proposals that are still in flux. How do I know when I
> can do that?


I think the original point to this thread was to figure that out. My
assumption is that if we don't change dates then all 801X PEPs will
forcibly go into "final" status and not be updated short of spelling
mistakes or clarifications that were simply overlooked -- i.e. no semantic
changes -- on November 15.


> And where do I go to see what *other* people are saying
> about the relative merits of the proposals? The topics on Discourse
> seem to be limited to one proposal at a time - so I'm assuming they
> are thrashing out details (that I don't really care about - I don't
> have enough of a "high level" feel yet to want to get into that level
> of detail).
>

Correct. No grand discussion has occurred as all the discussion has been
around getting the various PEPs to a final state that the proposers were
happy with.


>
> I guess I am assuming here that a topic titled "PEP 8013: The External
> Council Governance Model" is just about PEP 8013, and doesn't include
> digressions and off-topic subthreads (such as "this is why I prefer
> PEP xxx over PEP 8013"). I suppose I'm basing that on the fact that
> the Discourse users are making a point that one of the advantages of
> Discourse is that threads don't ramble like mailing lists do. In
> reality, I'm suspicious - it seems to me that human nature is such
> that discussions *do* digress, and go off topic. But again it's about
> time - if Discourse is just as much a bunch of wide ranging
> discussions as the mailing list is, I don't have time to follow all of
> Discourse as well as all of the lists I follow, and I don't have the
> time to learn how to manage and prioritise on Discourse (or at least,
> whatever time I do have that I could use for that, I'd rather use to
> better understand the governance proposals, as those are more
> important!) In the end, I accept that "I don't have enough time to do
> a good job" is something I have to accept and decide whether I abstain
> from the vote, or skim and vote as best I can based on that. That's
> something I can't expect help in deciding - but a little more clarity
> on what's happening with the process would make it a lot easier for me
> to make that decision myself.
>

So far people have been good about keeping Discourse on-topic. There is
also the benefit of being able to forcibly split a thread when it starts to
go off-topic (versus what happened here when the thread went off-topic and
the only way to stop that is to start a new email thread and hope people
pick up on the fact that it split off).


>
> Anyhow, this is probably a bit off-topic again.


Yes, but that's a drawback to mailing lists in my opinion and it's hard to
avoid. :)

-Brett


> I don't know whether
> anyone thinks I'm offering anything new here - I feel like I'm
> explaining my concerns from another perspective, but maybe all that's
> coming across is me going on about the same things over and over. If
> so, I apologise. I'll do my best to assume that I've said my piece
> now, and if nothing gets better then I'm just going to have to deal
> with it, as my views have been heard and that's all I can expect.
>
> Paul
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