From matt at vazor.com  Tue Nov  5 17:13:56 2019
From: matt at vazor.com (Matt Billenstein)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:13:56 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Taking billenstein-sierra buildbot offline
Message-ID: <0101016e3da1b017-2709d22d-314b-4907-a60c-c6163730f923-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>

It's a laptop with the infamous "battery swelling" issue - should have it back
online next week.

m

-- 
Matt Billenstein
matt at vazor.com
http://www.vazor.com/

From dayunbao at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 21:40:25 2019
From: dayunbao at gmail.com (yun bao)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 18:40:25 -0800
Subject: [pypy-dev] Feedback on Graduate School Research Idea Using Pypy
Message-ID: <CAKQosscn7NgCSJOomLkG8mKoLJe35mL3XM6oOBwRoiZfi1qXBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm planning to go to grad school for a Master's.  I'm thinking about
researching something related to getting Python running in a web browser.
All of the current implementations that allow you to do that either
transpile Python to JavaScript ahead of time, or do some kind of on-the-fly
conversion from Python to JavaScript.  I'd like to write an actual Python
engine that will run in the browser.  As I've been mulling over this idea,
I read about Pypy.  Given my limited knowledge of this domain (programming
language engines that run in the browser) and the exact nature of the
problem, Pypy seems like the best route to achieving this.  I'm still very
much in the early stages of fleshing this idea out, and besides the typical
undergraduate Programming Language class, I haven't done much in the way of
programming language design or anything compiler related.  So I have A LOT
to learn.  But I was hoping some of you who are Pypy experts could give me
a bit of advice on the feasibility of what I'm considering.

Thank you,

Andrew
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From yury at shurup.com  Sat Nov  9 03:25:14 2019
From: yury at shurup.com (Yury V. Zaytsev)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 09:25:14 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Feedback on Graduate School Research Idea Using Pypy
In-Reply-To: <CAKQosscn7NgCSJOomLkG8mKoLJe35mL3XM6oOBwRoiZfi1qXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKQosscn7NgCSJOomLkG8mKoLJe35mL3XM6oOBwRoiZfi1qXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1E48B3A-4183-4D0F-8FA4-C57560816A41@shurup.com>

Maybe you should start by having a look at PyPyJS and then exploring WebAssembly:

https://github.com/pypyjs/pypyjs

Sent from my iPad

> On 9. Nov 2019, at 03:40, yun bao <dayunbao at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Hi,
> 
> I'm planning to go to grad school for a Master's.  I'm thinking about researching something related to getting Python running in a web browser.  All of the current implementations that allow you to do that either transpile Python to JavaScript ahead of time, or do some kind of on-the-fly conversion from Python to JavaScript.  I'd like to write an actual Python engine that will run in the browser.  As I've been mulling over this idea, I read about Pypy.  Given my limited knowledge of this domain (programming language engines that run in the browser) and the exact nature of the problem, Pypy seems like the best route to achieving this.  I'm still very much in the early stages of fleshing this idea out, and besides the typical undergraduate Programming Language class, I haven't done much in the way of programming language design or anything compiler related.  So I have A LOT to learn.  But I was hoping some of you who are Pypy experts could give me a bit of advice on the feasibility of what I'm considering.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev mailing list
> pypy-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
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From dayunbao at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 17:26:16 2019
From: dayunbao at gmail.com (yun bao)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 14:26:16 -0800
Subject: [pypy-dev] Feedback on Graduate School Research Idea Using Pypy
In-Reply-To: <E1E48B3A-4183-4D0F-8FA4-C57560816A41@shurup.com>
References: <CAKQosscn7NgCSJOomLkG8mKoLJe35mL3XM6oOBwRoiZfi1qXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1E48B3A-4183-4D0F-8FA4-C57560816A41@shurup.com>
Message-ID: <CAKQossfXUp9WX=s9EgTNK2sOthtVgJ4VQWg32NC436q8VtkXpA@mail.gmail.com>

I took a look at PyPyJS.  I also spoke with some folks at Mozilla, and have
become very interested in WebAssembly.  I think having WebAssembly as a
target for RPython would be very useful.  Based on what I've learned
recently, it should be possible to write an interpreter in RPython,
translate it to C, then use Emscripten to compile that to WebAssembly.
However, if there was a WebAssembly backend for RPython, it would be
possible to build interpreters than run directly in the
browser (potentially even PyPy.).  That seems like an avenue worth
investigating, doesn't it?  I think while doing that, it would be worth
getting RPython compatible with Python 3.  By the way, these are things I'm
thinking about doing myself, not recommendations to any of you.  I'm still
working on a solid thesis idea for my Master's.

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 12:25 AM Yury V. Zaytsev <yury at shurup.com> wrote:

> Maybe you should start by having a look at PyPyJS and then exploring
> WebAssembly:
>
> https://github.com/pypyjs/pypyjs
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 9. Nov 2019, at 03:40, yun bao <dayunbao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi,
>
> I'm planning to go to grad school for a Master's.  I'm thinking about
> researching something related to getting Python running in a web browser.
> All of the current implementations that allow you to do that either
> transpile Python to JavaScript ahead of time, or do some kind of on-the-fly
> conversion from Python to JavaScript.  I'd like to write an actual Python
> engine that will run in the browser.  As I've been mulling over this idea,
> I read about Pypy.  Given my limited knowledge of this domain (programming
> language engines that run in the browser) and the exact nature of the
> problem, Pypy seems like the best route to achieving this.  I'm still very
> much in the early stages of fleshing this idea out, and besides the typical
> undergraduate Programming Language class, I haven't done much in the way of
> programming language design or anything compiler related.  So I have A LOT
> to learn.  But I was hoping some of you who are Pypy experts could give me
> a bit of advice on the feasibility of what I'm considering.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev mailing list
> pypy-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>
>
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From yury at shurup.com  Wed Nov 13 03:00:00 2019
From: yury at shurup.com (Yury V. Zaytsev)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:00:00 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Feedback on Graduate School Research Idea Using Pypy
In-Reply-To: <CAKQossfXUp9WX=s9EgTNK2sOthtVgJ4VQWg32NC436q8VtkXpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKQosscn7NgCSJOomLkG8mKoLJe35mL3XM6oOBwRoiZfi1qXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1E48B3A-4183-4D0F-8FA4-C57560816A41@shurup.com>
 <CAKQossfXUp9WX=s9EgTNK2sOthtVgJ4VQWg32NC436q8VtkXpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130845050.1662@prgmr.zaytsev.net>

An experimental WebAssembly backend is definitively an interesting idea, 
but as you have realised, to get PyPy running in the browser, it's not 
necessarily needed, as you can compile C to WebAssembly instead.

Sure, a native backend sounds nicer, but from my PoV the real performance 
questions lie elsewhere - so you've got an interpreter running under V8, 
what next? Obviously, it's not performing very well. What are the 
possibilities?

Are you going to try to restructure the interpreter in a way, that your 
language sematics become clearer to V8 so to say and it will be able to 
more or less JIT your interpreter directly? Is it even possible, with 
custom backend by avoiding Emscripten or otherwise?

Or maybe it makes sense to first write a WebAssembly JIT backend keeping 
the rest of the messy RPython -> C -> Emscripten -> WebAssembly toolchain 
in place, and study how to JITs (PyPy generated JIT and V8 JIT) interact? 
Is this interaction meaningful or harmful? Can it be turned into 
productive cooperation?

These are open questions, I don't know the answers, but what I want to say 
is that just being able to port interpreters to the browser is already 
possible via Emscripten, and in the context of PyPy there are other 
(I think) much more interesting questions to study.

... and I wouldn't muddy the waters with Python 3 transition, working on 
the questions above there is enough material for several PhDs, not even 
speaking of a master thesis :-)

On Tue, 12 Nov 2019, yun bao wrote:

> I took a look at PyPyJS.? I also spoke with some folks?at Mozilla, and have become very interested in WebAssembly.? I think having
> WebAssembly as a target for RPython would be very useful.? Based on what I've learned recently, it should be possible to write an
> interpreter in RPython, translate it to C, then use Emscripten to compile that to WebAssembly.? However, if there was a WebAssembly backend
> for RPython, it would be possible to build interpreters?than run directly in the browser?(potentially even PyPy.).? That seems like an
> avenue worth investigating, doesn't it?? I think while doing that, it would be worth getting RPython compatible with Python 3.? By the way,
> these are things I'm thinking about doing myself, not recommendations to any of you.? I'm still working on a solid thesis idea for my
> Master's.??
> 
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 12:25 AM Yury V. Zaytsev <yury at shurup.com> wrote:
>       Maybe you should start by having a look at PyPyJS and then exploring WebAssembly:
> https://github.com/pypyjs/pypyjs
> 
> Sent from my iPad
>
>       On 9. Nov 2019, at 03:40, yun bao <dayunbao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>       ?Hi,
> I'm planning to go to grad school for a Master's.? I'm thinking about researching something related to getting Python running
> in a web browser.? All of the current implementations that allow you to do that either transpile Python to JavaScript ahead of
> time, or do some kind of on-the-fly conversion from Python to JavaScript.? I'd like to write an actual Python engine that will
> run in the browser.? As I've been mulling over this idea, I read about Pypy.? Given my limited knowledge of this domain
> (programming language engines that run in the browser) and the exact nature of the problem, Pypy seems like the best route to
> achieving this.? I'm still very much in the early stages of fleshing this idea out, and besides the typical undergraduate
> Programming Language class, I haven't done much in the way of programming language design or anything?compiler related.? So I
> have A LOT to learn.? But I was hoping some of you who are Pypy experts could give me a bit of advice on the feasibility of
> what I'm considering.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev mailing list
> pypy-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> 
> 
>

-- 
Sincerely yours,
Yury V. Zaytsev

From dayunbao at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 18:28:16 2019
From: dayunbao at gmail.com (yun bao)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 15:28:16 -0800
Subject: [pypy-dev] Fwd: Feedback on Graduate School Research Idea Using Pypy
In-Reply-To: <CAKQossev_jswecMy7d7um5eZMpCZukz33aR4J5XnK1k7jYbr4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKQosscn7NgCSJOomLkG8mKoLJe35mL3XM6oOBwRoiZfi1qXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1E48B3A-4183-4D0F-8FA4-C57560816A41@shurup.com>
 <CAKQossfXUp9WX=s9EgTNK2sOthtVgJ4VQWg32NC436q8VtkXpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130845050.1662@prgmr.zaytsev.net>
 <CAKQossev_jswecMy7d7um5eZMpCZukz33aR4J5XnK1k7jYbr4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKQossfP5L6SzDT9BtY4FAwBCoydVQTmTaCDu+VkxwVGeKq-SA@mail.gmail.com>

Oops, replied directly.  Forwarding to the mailing list.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: yun bao <dayunbao at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [pypy-dev] Feedback on Graduate School Research Idea Using Pypy
To: Yury V. Zaytsev <yury at shurup.com>


  Thanks for all your feedback.  You've given me a lot to think about.
I'll probably send you some follow up questions regarding the topics you
raised, if you don't mind.

I was thinking that compiling PyPy to Wasm, and getting it running in the
browser, would simply be the first step to doing real research, not as a
research topic itself.  I won't be starting grad school until next fall, so
I have some time to play around with things and figure out exactly what I
want to research.

By the way, I was reading more about WebAssembly, and saw this:
https://github.com/WebAssembly/binaryen.  It might allow the removing of
Emscripten from a toolchain that compiles an RPython interpreter to Wasm,
since "It accepts input in WebAssembly-like form but also accepts a general
control flow graph for compilers that prefer that."  Maybe it's be possible
to feed the control flow graphs the Annotator creates into Binaryen, and go
straight to Wasm without ever first compiling to C?

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 12:00 AM Yury V. Zaytsev <yury at shurup.com> wrote:

> An experimental WebAssembly backend is definitively an interesting idea,
> but as you have realised, to get PyPy running in the browser, it's not
> necessarily needed, as you can compile C to WebAssembly instead.
>
> Sure, a native backend sounds nicer, but from my PoV the real performance
> questions lie elsewhere - so you've got an interpreter running under V8,
> what next? Obviously, it's not performing very well. What are the
> possibilities?
>
> Are you going to try to restructure the interpreter in a way, that your
> language sematics become clearer to V8 so to say and it will be able to
> more or less JIT your interpreter directly? Is it even possible, with
> custom backend by avoiding Emscripten or otherwise?
>
> Or maybe it makes sense to first write a WebAssembly JIT backend keeping
> the rest of the messy RPython -> C -> Emscripten -> WebAssembly toolchain
> in place, and study how to JITs (PyPy generated JIT and V8 JIT) interact?
> Is this interaction meaningful or harmful? Can it be turned into
> productive cooperation?
>
> These are open questions, I don't know the answers, but what I want to say
> is that just being able to port interpreters to the browser is already
> possible via Emscripten, and in the context of PyPy there are other
> (I think) much more interesting questions to study.
>
> ... and I wouldn't muddy the waters with Python 3 transition, working on
> the questions above there is enough material for several PhDs, not even
> speaking of a master thesis :-)
>
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2019, yun bao wrote:
>
> > I took a look at PyPyJS.  I also spoke with some folks at Mozilla, and
> have become very interested in WebAssembly.  I think having
> > WebAssembly as a target for RPython would be very useful.  Based on what
> I've learned recently, it should be possible to write an
> > interpreter in RPython, translate it to C, then use Emscripten to
> compile that to WebAssembly.  However, if there was a WebAssembly backend
> > for RPython, it would be possible to build interpreters than run
> directly in the browser (potentially even PyPy.).  That seems like an
> > avenue worth investigating, doesn't it?  I think while doing that, it
> would be worth getting RPython compatible with Python 3.  By the way,
> > these are things I'm thinking about doing myself, not recommendations to
> any of you.  I'm still working on a solid thesis idea for my
> > Master's.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 12:25 AM Yury V. Zaytsev <yury at shurup.com> wrote:
> >       Maybe you should start by having a look at PyPyJS and then
> exploring WebAssembly:
> > https://github.com/pypyjs/pypyjs
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >       On 9. Nov 2019, at 03:40, yun bao <dayunbao at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >       ?Hi,
> > I'm planning to go to grad school for a Master's.  I'm thinking about
> researching something related to getting Python running
> > in a web browser.  All of the current implementations that allow you to
> do that either transpile Python to JavaScript ahead of
> > time, or do some kind of on-the-fly conversion from Python to
> JavaScript.  I'd like to write an actual Python engine that will
> > run in the browser.  As I've been mulling over this idea, I read about
> Pypy.  Given my limited knowledge of this domain
> > (programming language engines that run in the browser) and the exact
> nature of the problem, Pypy seems like the best route to
> > achieving this.  I'm still very much in the early stages of fleshing
> this idea out, and besides the typical undergraduate
> > Programming Language class, I haven't done much in the way of
> programming language design or anything compiler related.  So I
> > have A LOT to learn.  But I was hoping some of you who are Pypy experts
> could give me a bit of advice on the feasibility of
> > what I'm considering.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Andrew
> > _______________________________________________
> > pypy-dev mailing list
> > pypy-dev at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Sincerely yours,
> Yury V. Zaytsev
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From matti.picus at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 13:03:08 2019
From: matti.picus at gmail.com (Matti Picus)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:03:08 -0800
Subject: [pypy-dev] upcoming release
Message-ID: <1fa9f3c0-82e7-6b3d-a2c8-7bfd74b30b34@gmail.com>

I would like to do a release of pypy soon. The biggest change from 7.2 
is that we changed the SOABI to pypy27_pp73 (or pp36_pp73) to better 
hanlde packaging. Since a new release of pip will depend on our SOABI, I 
would like the release to happen soon. I am proposing this be "7.3.0" 
and not "8.0.0".


Are there any outstanding issues we should fix before a new release?


Packaging PyPy:

I have been on changing our build/packaging on linux to produce a binary 
based on portable-pypy. My motivation is to enable projects like 
multibuild or cibuildwheels to download binary versions of PyPy from a 
single source. Is this a priority?

The wininstaller branch provides an installer based on the CPython one. 
It works. Should we release it now? Is this a priority?


Thanks for feedback

Matti


From springchantboxer at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 16:11:49 2019
From: springchantboxer at gmail.com (andy l)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 21:11:49 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] upcoming release
In-Reply-To: <1fa9f3c0-82e7-6b3d-a2c8-7bfd74b30b34@gmail.com>
References: <1fa9f3c0-82e7-6b3d-a2c8-7bfd74b30b34@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOGRvoeAodt4xXTFu59YBF+O2dEMpBdsKBaovO_YxLcM2vn-7g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Matti,

If you are working on packaging it certainly makes sense to get the Windows
installer working. I believe a large chunk of the work is done.

The only thing I can think of that is missing there is that there is no
integration with the buildbot. That would have to be modified some how to
call the packaging script after the binaries have been built.

Andy


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 6:03 PM Matti Picus <matti.picus at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would like to do a release of pypy soon. The biggest change from 7.2
> is that we changed the SOABI to pypy27_pp73 (or pp36_pp73) to better
> hanlde packaging. Since a new release of pip will depend on our SOABI, I
> would like the release to happen soon. I am proposing this be "7.3.0"
> and not "8.0.0".
>
>
> Are there any outstanding issues we should fix before a new release?
>
>
> Packaging PyPy:
>
> I have been on changing our build/packaging on linux to produce a binary
> based on portable-pypy. My motivation is to enable projects like
> multibuild or cibuildwheels to download binary versions of PyPy from a
> single source. Is this a priority?
>
> The wininstaller branch provides an installer based on the CPython one.
> It works. Should we release it now? Is this a priority?
>
>
> Thanks for feedback
>
> Matti
>
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev mailing list
> pypy-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>
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From anto.cuni at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 04:45:26 2019
From: anto.cuni at gmail.com (Antonio Cuni)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:45:26 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] upcoming release
In-Reply-To: <1fa9f3c0-82e7-6b3d-a2c8-7bfd74b30b34@gmail.com>
References: <1fa9f3c0-82e7-6b3d-a2c8-7bfd74b30b34@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHPg78zwaGqBrpoHL3Z1LeCJw2-5Dd8FVK8d-d7Q8cj3baKR=A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Matti,

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 7:03 PM Matti Picus <matti.picus at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would like to do a release of pypy soon. The biggest change from 7.2
> is that we changed the SOABI to pypy27_pp73 (or pp36_pp73) to better
> hanlde packaging. Since a new release of pip will depend on our SOABI, I
> would like the release to happen soon. I am proposing this be "7.3.0"
> and not "8.0.0".
>

+1

Are there any outstanding issues we should fix before a new release?
>

if it has not done already, I think it would be a good idea to update the
bundled version of pip so that you can install manylinux2010 wheels with
just `pypy -m ensurepip`.


> Packaging PyPy:
>
> I have been on changing our build/packaging on linux to produce a binary
> based on portable-pypy. My motivation is to enable projects like
> multibuild or cibuildwheels to download binary versions of PyPy from a
> single source. Is this a priority?
>

+1 also on this. For my wheels repo, I have to use the unofficial portable
build. If we aim for packages to release their own pypy wheels, we should
make the process as straighforward as possible.

ciao,
Anto
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