From andrewfr_ice at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  1 14:26:14 2008
From: andrewfr_ice at yahoo.com (Andrew Francis)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Rpython-mode Re: Problems getting Translate.py and
	Pylint to work
In-Reply-To: <437de8500810311423v19f49e8fvc47428711ac58da2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53669.23721.qm@web34208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Hello Maciej and Adrien:

I am new to PyPy so excuse me for silly questions....

> > I am trying to get RPython to work. I get the
> following problem:

...

> You cannot use a compiler package when writing rpython
> code. I'm not
> sure what you're trying to do, but if your goal is to
> translate
> existing python program using rpython toolchain, this will
> not work
> (almost certainly).

I was testing out RPython by following Christopher Armstrong's tutorial "How to do Something in RPython" (http://radix.twistedmatrix.com/2006/12/how-to-do-something-with-rpython-part-1.html). Have things changed?

> This is indeed not the right place to ask :-). Try
> python-projects at logilab.org instead for any pylint related
> question.
> Juste to make a quick answer, your problem is probably just
> that you didn't install the logilab.common package
> (http://www.logilab.org/project/logilab-common)

Thanks for the hint. I'll ask future questions in the Logilab mailing list. The main reason I asked here is that I believe pylint has the --rpython-mode. I saw the following in one of the pypy mailing list archives.

"it is faster and therefore provides feedback faster than  ``translate.py``
+
+* it does not stop at the first problem it finds, so you can get more
+  feedback on the code in one run"


Cheers,
Andrew



      


From arigo at tunes.org  Sat Nov  1 18:05:45 2008
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:05:45 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Problems getting Translate.py and Pylint to work
In-Reply-To: <361057.6962.qm@web34203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <361057.6962.qm@web34203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081101170545.GA27305@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi Andrew,

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:45:00PM -0700, Andrew Francis wrote:
> [translation:ERROR]     from compiler import parse, ast, pycodegen

"from compiler import parse" works for me on all Python versions 2.2 to
2.6.  Either your Python installation is broken, or you have a module
called "compiler.py" that hides the package "compiler" from the stdlib.


Armin


From andrewfr_ice at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  3 21:34:53 2008
From: andrewfr_ice at yahoo.com (Andrew Francis)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:34:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Problems getting Translate.py and Pylint to work
In-Reply-To: <20081101170545.GA27305@code0.codespeak.net>
Message-ID: <323239.10478.qm@web34201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello Armin:

Thanks! Pylint now runs. The problem was I had a compiler package. I also managed to get translate to compile the Christopher Armstrong example. Sweet!

Cheers,
Andrew 


--- On Sat, 11/1/08, Armin Rigo <arigo at tunes.org> wrote:

> From: Armin Rigo <arigo at tunes.org>
> Subject: Re: [pypy-dev] Problems getting Translate.py and Pylint to work
> To: "Andrew Francis" <andrewfr_ice at yahoo.com>
> Cc: pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 10:05 AM
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:45:00PM -0700, Andrew Francis
> wrote:
> > [translation:ERROR]     from compiler import parse,
> ast, pycodegen
> 
> "from compiler import parse" works for me on all
> Python versions 2.2 to
> 2.6.  Either your Python installation is broken, or you
> have a module
> called "compiler.py" that hides the package
> "compiler" from the stdlib.
> 
> 
> Armin


      


From andrewfr_ice at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  3 22:32:04 2008
From: andrewfr_ice at yahoo.com (Andrew Francis)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:32:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Questions about Moving from Stackless to PyPy
Message-ID: <963585.74543.qm@web34206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Folks:

I am really new to PyPy. However I have been using Stackless. I would like to do two things. First convert a pre-existing Python programme, A scaled down WS-BPEL processor to RPython and in the process use the Stackless module. I would want the end-product to be a C programme or a C library. I am interested stuff like 1) Will the Picking still work? 2) How to glue this to Twisted?

The second thing I would like to do if the first part works - is convert WS-BPEL code (WS-BPEL is an XML based programming language) into a C library too (I have write a very crude WS-BPEL to Python translator).

Is what I want to do viable? What are some of things the pitfalls? Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Andrew


      


From daniel.furrer at gmail.com  Fri Nov 14 15:48:11 2008
From: daniel.furrer at gmail.com (Daniel Furrer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:48:11 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
Message-ID: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>

[This message has been posted to python-dev as well. Sorry for the
duplication to those who read both.]

Hello everybody,

As part of an advanced compiler design course at our university (ETH
Zurich), we have to implement an optimization (or various thereof).
I've spoken with a couple of people who are, like me, very fascinated by
Python.
So I would just like to ask if somebody has any ideas on what we could do?

Our constraints:
- We are 4 persons, each willing to potentially spend around 4-6 full days
of work.
- We've been working on generating Control Flow Graphs, generating Static
Single Assignment Form (inserting phi-nodes) and removing it again. We've
also implemented techniques like constant folding, copy propagation, Common
Subexpression Elimination etc.

We're looking for:
- Hints as to which python compiler would be best to work on. (The official
Python compiler package seems very nice to work with actually... [and so
does PyPy.])
- If there are any requests in the area of optimization that we could have a
look at

Any feedback would be highly appreciated as well as pointers to specific
bugs in the tracker and other relevant discussions.

Best regards,
Daniel
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From getxsick at gmail.com  Sun Nov 16 02:01:54 2008
From: getxsick at gmail.com (Bartosz SKOWRON)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 02:01:54 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] =?utf-8?q?sprint_in_Wroc=C5=82aw_=28PL=29?=
Message-ID: <77887e110811151701x5c178eedoaadb201b6d6f44c4@mail.gmail.com>

Hello folks!

Fijal asked me to write about possibility of making a sprint in Wroclaw.

There is a possibility to set a sprint at Wroclaw University of
Technology campus for free. But we have a chance to reserve a class
only during winter break. This period is between 30.01 - 22.02. I got
a permission to make a sprint from uni's boss but i have to set the
dates. My proposition is 9.02-15.02 2009. What about you?
Are you interested in this sprint? The town is quite cheap (as whole
Eastern Europe is) and there are a lot of hostels/hotels etc. Also
it's very near to Germany and Czech Rep.

Let me know if you have any questions.

I should reserve a class asap but I need the dates and your opinion :)

cheers!
bart/getxsick


From cfbolz at gmx.de  Mon Nov 17 14:21:53 2008
From: cfbolz at gmx.de (Carl Friedrich Bolz)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:21:53 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] =?iso-8859-1?q?sprint_in_Wroc=3Faw_=28PL=29?=
In-Reply-To: <77887e110811151701x5c178eedoaadb201b6d6f44c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77887e110811151701x5c178eedoaadb201b6d6f44c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49216FF1.4020909@gmx.de>

Hi!

Bartosz SKOWRON wrote:
> Fijal asked me to write about possibility of making a sprint in Wroclaw.
> 
> There is a possibility to set a sprint at Wroclaw University of
> Technology campus for free. But we have a chance to reserve a class
> only during winter break. This period is between 30.01 - 22.02. I got
> a permission to make a sprint from uni's boss but i have to set the
> dates. My proposition is 9.02-15.02 2009. What about you?
> Are you interested in this sprint? The town is quite cheap (as whole
> Eastern Europe is) and there are a lot of hostels/hotels etc. Also
> it's very near to Germany and Czech Rep.
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> I should reserve a class asap but I need the dates and your opinion :)

I would definitely like to have a sprint in Wroclaw! However, for me it
would fit better if it were a week later, since our lecture goes till
the 6th of february and the exams are in the week afterwards. You think
that would be possible too?

Cheers,

Carl Friedrich


From cfbolz at gmx.de  Mon Nov 17 14:26:24 2008
From: cfbolz at gmx.de (Carl Friedrich Bolz)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:26:24 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
In-Reply-To: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49217100.1020108@gmx.de>

Hi Daniel,

sorry for the late response.

Daniel Furrer wrote:
> As part of an advanced compiler design course at our university (ETH
> Zurich), we have to implement an optimization (or various thereof).
> I've spoken with a couple of people who are, like me, very fascinated by
> Python.
> So I would just like to ask if somebody has any ideas on what we could do?
> 
> Our constraints:
> - We are 4 persons, each willing to potentially spend around 4-6 full
> days of work.
> - We've been working on generating Control Flow Graphs, generating
> Static Single Assignment Form (inserting phi-nodes) and removing it
> again. We've also implemented techniques like constant folding, copy
> propagation, Common Subexpression Elimination etc.
> 
> We're looking for:
> - Hints as to which python compiler would be best to work on. (The
> official Python compiler package seems very nice to work with
> actually... [and so does PyPy.])
> - If there are any requests in the area of optimization that we could
> have a look at
> 
> Any feedback would be highly appreciated as well as pointers to specific
> bugs in the tracker and other relevant discussions.

I guess the problem for "classical" compiler optimizations applied to a
compiler producing Python bytecode is that most of them are potentially
unsafe. E.g. you cannot do CSE in Python, because any expression can
have arbitrary side-effects. Therefore it is very limited which
optimizations can be applied at all.

PyPy's translation toolchain works in SSI as an intermediate
representation (which is a sub-set of SSA). However, many of the
straightforward optimizations (constant-folding, copy-progragation,
inlining, a form of escape analysis) have already been implemented. Some
things are not done yet, like common subexpression elimination. We
didn't bother to implement them yet, because they are not as useful for
PyPy since we target C, and most C compilers can do theses things for us.

Cheers,

Carl Friedrich


From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 14:51:15 2008
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:51:15 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
In-Reply-To: <49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
References: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <a4d0c86c0811170551l144f2cc2mcb30303e542463@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, first I'd like to state I'm not part of the Zurich group, so what
follows are just my 2 cents.

On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 14:26, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi Daniel,

> Daniel Furrer wrote:
>> We're looking for:
>> - Hints as to which python compiler would be best to work on. (The
>> official Python compiler package seems very nice to work with
>> actually... [and so does PyPy.])

> I guess the problem for "classical" compiler optimizations applied to a
> compiler producing Python bytecode is that most of them are potentially
> unsafe. E.g. you cannot do CSE in Python, because any expression can
> have arbitrary side-effects. Therefore it is very limited which
> optimizations can be applied at all.

I guess that is because an object can define a custom '+' operator,
for instance, right?
But aren't those optimizations possible anyway after specialization
and inlining? And anyway, who said that CSE should be applied to the
Python bytecode? In fact, I think both Java and .NET do it inside the
VM.
Then, the next point is that you do not have yet a JIT. But still, I
think it is possible to specialize bytecode to eliminate dynamic
lookups and enable optimizations such as CSE. But the benefit of
specialized bytecode can be significant, I guess, only if the
interpreter is really fast (either a threaded one, or a code-copying
one). Is the PyPy interpreter threaded?

> PyPy's translation toolchain works in SSI as an intermediate
> representation (which is a sub-set of SSA). However, many of the
> straightforward optimizations (constant-folding, copy-progragation,
> inlining, a form of escape analysis) have already been implemented. Some
> things are not done yet, like common subexpression elimination. We
> didn't bother to implement them yet, because they are not as useful for
> PyPy since we target C, and most C compilers can do theses things for us.

-- 
Paolo Giarrusso


From anto.cuni at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 15:05:31 2008
From: anto.cuni at gmail.com (Antonio Cuni)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:05:31 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
In-Reply-To: <a4d0c86c0811170551l144f2cc2mcb30303e542463@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>	<49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
	<a4d0c86c0811170551l144f2cc2mcb30303e542463@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49217A2B.1060704@gmail.com>

Paolo Giarrusso wrote:

> specialized bytecode can be significant, I guess, only if the
> interpreter is really fast (either a threaded one, or a code-copying
> one). Is the PyPy interpreter threaded?

sometime ago I tried to measure if/how much we can gain with a threaded 
interpreter. I manually modified the produced C code to make the main 
loop threaded, but we didn't gain anything; I think there are three 
possible reasons:

1) in Python a lot of opcodes are quite complex and time-consuming, so 
the time spent to dispatch to them is a little percentage of the total 
time spent for the execution

2) due to Python's semantics, it's not possible to just jump from one 
opcode to the next, as we need to do a lot of bookkeeping, like 
remembering what was the last line executed, etc. This means that the 
trampolines at the end of each opcode contains a lot code duplication, 
leading to a bigger main loop, with possibly bad effects on the cache 
(didn't measure this, though)

3) it's possible that I did something wrong, so in that case my 
measurements are completely useless :-).  If anyone wants to try again, 
it cannot hurt.

ciao,
Anto


From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 15:32:24 2008
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:32:24 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
In-Reply-To: <49217A2B.1060704@gmail.com>
References: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
	<a4d0c86c0811170551l144f2cc2mcb30303e542463@mail.gmail.com>
	<49217A2B.1060704@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4d0c86c0811170632q77988fbfqc45c307888a33968@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 15:05, Antonio Cuni <anto.cuni at gmail.com> wrote:
> Paolo Giarrusso wrote:
>
>> specialized bytecode can be significant, I guess, only if the
>> interpreter is really fast (either a threaded one, or a code-copying
>> one). Is the PyPy interpreter threaded?
>
> sometime ago I tried to measure if/how much we can gain with a threaded
> interpreter. I manually modified the produced C code to make the main loop
> threaded, but we didn't gain anything; I think there are three possible
> reasons:

> 1) in Python a lot of opcodes are quite complex and time-consuming, so the
> time spent to dispatch to them is a little percentage of the total time
> spent for the execution
That's something difficult to believe, I think. Well, it is possible
to profile execution to count mispredictions, to avoid having to think
about it.

Well, since arithmetic ops may involve a method lookup, I understand
what you mean. OTOH, a method lookup means just one dictionary lookup
when first seeing the bytecode (I would save the hashcode inline in
the bytecode after first execution actually, to speed that up), and an
unpredictable indirect branch; making the dispatch branch more
predictable by threading should still have a significant impact.

> 2) due to Python's semantics, it's not possible to just jump from one opcode
> to the next, as we need to do a lot of bookkeeping, like remembering what
> was the last line executed, etc.

This is a more likely culprit.
But... all languages that I know of (Java, compiled languages) just
have a reverse map from bytecode positions to the original line
information, to be used when and if they are needed (i.e. as debug
info, or to unwind the stack when an exception is thrown I guess).
Isn't that possible for Python?
In any

> This means that the trampolines at the end
> of each opcode contains a lot code duplication, leading to a bigger main
> loop, with possibly bad effects on the cache (didn't measure this, though)


> 3) it's possible that I did something wrong, so in that case my measurements
> are completely useless :-).  If anyone wants to try again, it cannot hurt.

Do you have the original code somewhere? I know one has to redo it
anyway even because that's generated code, but still guidance is
helpful.

-- 
Paolo Giarrusso


From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 15:44:50 2008
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:44:50 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
In-Reply-To: <a4d0c86c0811170632q77988fbfqc45c307888a33968@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
	<a4d0c86c0811170551l144f2cc2mcb30303e542463@mail.gmail.com>
	<49217A2B.1060704@gmail.com>
	<a4d0c86c0811170632q77988fbfqc45c307888a33968@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4d0c86c0811170644t43e6e64fq9d379217d9aa8a5b@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I sent the unfinished mail by mistake.

>> 2) due to Python's semantics, it's not possible to just jump from one opcode
>> to the next, as we need to do a lot of bookkeeping, like remembering what
>> was the last line executed, etc.
>
> This is a more likely culprit.
> But... all languages that I know of (Java, compiled languages) just
> have a reverse map from bytecode positions to the original line
> information, to be used when and if they are needed (i.e. as debug
> info, or to unwind the stack when an exception is thrown I guess).
> Isn't that possible for Python?

Additionally, could you make some more examples?

> In any
[the unfinished sentence]
In any case, have you read "The Structure and Performance of E?cient
Interpreters"?, by M. Ertl and D. Gregg? It's a paper that really
matters in practice, for fast interpreters (and if you don't believe
me, believe http://webkit.org/blog/189/announcing-squirrelfish/).

Basically, what it says is that in efficient interpreters, most of the
runtime cost is caused by indirect branches (they go as far as taking
that as a definition of "efficient interpreter"). And that applies
also to Scheme (which, I think, is not less dynamic than Python - any
arith instruction must still check the argument types and choose
between the fast path and throwing an error).

My first impression is that the problem was that the interpreter is
not yet optimized enough, and that comes from various hints:
- You do bookkeeping for the last executed line (unless tables prove
impossible to apply)
- We discussed about removing dictionary lookups for attributes little
time ago, and one PyPy developers said "it doesn't really matter, an
interpreter is so slow anyway".

This is the original quote from Armin Rigo
(http://codespeak.net/pipermail/pypy-dev/2008q4/004862.html):

"I don't know how much
speed-ups this would give; in fact it is rather unclear to me why people
think that dictionary lookups are seriously bad.  Of course they are
more expensive than just reading an item out of a list, but I don't
think it's worse than roughly 3 times slower; this number looks big in
the context of machine code, but insignificant in the context of a
complicated bytecode interpreter.  I'm ready to be proven wrong, of
course."

And anyway, Armin itself suggested there is space for optimizing the
interpreter.
-- 
Paolo Giarrusso

From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 15:49:59 2008
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:49:59 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Possible student project on PyPy
In-Reply-To: <490875CF.6010303@gmx.de>
References: <a4d0c86c0810281212u71a2b09ay6d15be678c970346@mail.gmail.com>
	<a4d0c86c0810281220s544c8db5o4338ebf351f36c67@mail.gmail.com>
	<490875CF.6010303@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <a4d0c86c0811170649h1af169cbsf3343f4ee233e07d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 15:40, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:
> Paolo Giarrusso wrote:
>> Hi, for a student project, we are evaluating the possibility to
>> experiment with some ideas on PyPy.

I'm sorry to reply so late - basically, after a consultation with the
professors, we were recommended to start out on our own, to really
learn how to write a VM and make it fast, before going on to more
ambitious projects.
The target we have settled on is for now to write a Python bytecode
interpreter with threading and code-copying, and then try to work on
the GC. We'll see if we get any interesting results (but since we are
not aiming to implement the full Python semantics, I guess it will be
pretty easy to be faster than a full-blown interpreter).

Regards
-- 
Paolo Giarrusso


From daniel.furrer at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 16:04:57 2008
From: daniel.furrer at gmail.com (Daniel Furrer)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:04:57 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
In-Reply-To: <49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
References: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <bc17039c0811170704r47166614u43077a3327dfa6d2@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your answers.

On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:

> I guess the problem for "classical" compiler optimizations applied to a
> compiler producing Python bytecode is that most of them are potentially
> unsafe. E.g. you cannot do CSE in Python, because any expression can
> have arbitrary side-effects. Therefore it is very limited which
> optimizations can be applied at all.


Well, the side-effects are a problem, so we can not do any method
invocations (unless we would check that the methods are pure). Thinking
about this: it's not even easily possible to optimize the subset of
numerical operations because we don't have any static type information.
woops...



> PyPy's translation toolchain works in SSI as an intermediate
> representation (which is a sub-set of SSA). However, many of the
> straightforward optimizations (constant-folding, copy-progragation,
> inlining, a form of escape analysis) have already been implemented. Some
> things are not done yet, like common subexpression elimination. We
> didn't bother to implement them yet, because they are not as useful for
> PyPy since we target C, and most C compilers can do theses things for us.


That's true. But I would assume they do constant folding and copy
propagation as well then, don't they? (How about PRE?)
So just out of interest: In which area would you start optimizing PyPy?

cheers,
Daniel
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From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 16:15:48 2008
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:15:48 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] compiler optimizations: collecting ideas
In-Reply-To: <bc17039c0811170704r47166614u43077a3327dfa6d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bc17039c0811140648s2cd9adfes1a161751b07c99d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49217100.1020108@gmx.de>
	<bc17039c0811170704r47166614u43077a3327dfa6d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4d0c86c0811170715v29d05f63h239f102c00face9f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 16:04, Daniel Furrer <daniel.furrer at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your answers.
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> I guess the problem for "classical" compiler optimizations applied to a
>> compiler producing Python bytecode is that most of them are potentially
>> unsafe. E.g. you cannot do CSE in Python, because any expression can
>> have arbitrary side-effects. Therefore it is very limited which
>> optimizations can be applied at all.
>
> Well, the side-effects are a problem, so we can not do any method
> invocations (unless we would check that the methods are pure). Thinking
> about this: it's not even easily possible to optimize the subset of
> numerical operations because we don't have any static type information.
> woops...

Indeed, existing work solved this problem in the VM, by means of
runtime specialization (you generate a version of the method for the
commonly used argument types, so that for each specialized version you
have static type information); there is a lot of literature of the
late '80s and early '90s about this, mainly for Smalltalk, but also on
Self.

Some recommended papers on this are:
* A Survey of Adaptive Optimization in Virtual Machines, Matthew
Arnold, Stephen J. Find, David Grove, Michael Hind, and Peter F.
Sweeney, IEEE.
* An Efficient Implementation of SELF, a Dynamically-Typed
Object-Oriented Language Based on Prototypes, Craig Chambers, David
Ungar, and Elgin Lee, 1991 (specific discussion of code
specialization, for languages such as JavaScript and Python).

Regards
-- 
Paolo Giarrusso


From getxsick at gmail.com  Tue Nov 18 23:52:00 2008
From: getxsick at gmail.com (Bartosz SKOWRON)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:52:00 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] sprint in Wroc?aw (PL)
In-Reply-To: <49216FF1.4020909@gmx.de>
References: <77887e110811151701x5c178eedoaadb201b6d6f44c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49216FF1.4020909@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <77887e110811181452p5eae3f7bnb30c1ad8b9c42cae@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:

> I would definitely like to have a sprint in Wroclaw! However, for me it
> would fit better if it were a week later, since our lecture goes till
> the 6th of february and the exams are in the week afterwards. You think
> that would be possible too?

I can't guarentee if it's possible for 9th-15 of februarry neither
16th to 22th...i have to go and check it, but would be better if we
could set initial date, because it's easier to force something focused
than not specified date ;)
So, 9.02 - 15.02 2009 is still ok (we have still winter break then).
Any feedback from others?


From glavoie at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 04:13:42 2008
From: glavoie at gmail.com (Gabriel Lavoie)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:13:42 -0500
Subject: [pypy-dev] PyPy under FreeBSD 7
Message-ID: <d05df8620811201913l46bd3223r7ccba26c052ed3d8@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
     I'm trying to translate PyPy into pypy-c on FreeBSD 7.0 but at the
beginning of the translation process I get the following error,

NotImplementedError("don't know how to get the C-level errno!")

from the file "pypy/rpython/lltypesystem/ll2ctypes.py". How can I solve this
problem? It seems it's python-ctypes related. I'm using Python 2.5.3 (from
ports tree) and when I tried to build the port "devel/py-ctypes", it told me
that ctypes was provided with Python 2.5.x.

Thanks!

Gabriel

-- 
Gabriel Lavoie
glavoie at gmail.com
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From fijall at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 10:22:31 2008
From: fijall at gmail.com (Maciej Fijalkowski)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:22:31 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] PyPy under FreeBSD 7
In-Reply-To: <d05df8620811201913l46bd3223r7ccba26c052ed3d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d05df8620811201913l46bd3223r7ccba26c052ed3d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <693bc9ab0811210122qfcb6b04m7996cc2dcd868397@mail.gmail.com>

There is no reasonable, reliable way of getting errno under different
operating systems. That's why we introduced per-system hack at the
very bottom of ll2ctypes that tries to get errno. Can you think about
a way to do it on FreeBSD? There is also nice, generic way to do it on
top of python2.6, if you're up to trying it on it, I can provide the
fix (it's not implemented yet).

Cheers,
fijal

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Gabriel Lavoie <glavoie at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>      I'm trying to translate PyPy into pypy-c on FreeBSD 7.0 but at the
> beginning of the translation process I get the following error,
>
> NotImplementedError("don't know how to get the C-level errno!")
>
> from the file "pypy/rpython/lltypesystem/ll2ctypes.py". How can I solve this
> problem? It seems it's python-ctypes related. I'm using Python 2.5.3 (from
> ports tree) and when I tried to build the port "devel/py-ctypes", it told me
> that ctypes was provided with Python 2.5.x.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Gabriel
>
> --
> Gabriel Lavoie
> glavoie at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>


From anto.cuni at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 17:04:47 2008
From: anto.cuni at gmail.com (Antonio Cuni)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:04:47 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] [pypy-svn] r60055 -
	pypy/trunk/pypy/interpreter/pyparser/test
In-Reply-To: <20081121153708.BF41E168440@codespeak.net>
References: <20081121153708.BF41E168440@codespeak.net>
Message-ID: <4926DC1F.7090400@gmail.com>

fijal at codespeak.net wrote:

> +def setup_module(mod):
> +    if sys.version > '2.5':
> +        py.test.skip("Fails on top of cpy 2.5 for messy reasons, investigate")
> +

maybe I just misunderstood what you want to do, but are you sure you 
don't want to also check if we are running on top of cpython or on top 
of pypy-c? Else you will skip the test once we fix our own version number.

ciao,
Anto


From fijall at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 17:16:28 2008
From: fijall at gmail.com (Maciej Fijalkowski)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:16:28 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] [pypy-svn] r60055 -
	pypy/trunk/pypy/interpreter/pyparser/test
In-Reply-To: <4926DC1F.7090400@gmail.com>
References: <20081121153708.BF41E168440@codespeak.net>
	<4926DC1F.7090400@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <693bc9ab0811210816u4e2a2b5o8a38b98c31fc07d3@mail.gmail.com>

I'm pretty sure it'll fail on top of pypy-c anyway, so yes, I wanted to :)

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Antonio Cuni <anto.cuni at gmail.com> wrote:
> fijal at codespeak.net wrote:
>
>> +def setup_module(mod):
>> +    if sys.version > '2.5':
>> +        py.test.skip("Fails on top of cpy 2.5 for messy reasons,
>> investigate")
>> +
>
> maybe I just misunderstood what you want to do, but are you sure you don't
> want to also check if we are running on top of cpython or on top of pypy-c?
> Else you will skip the test once we fix our own version number.
>
> ciao,
> Anto
>


From tbaldridge at gmail.com  Sat Nov 22 05:21:06 2008
From: tbaldridge at gmail.com (Timothy Baldridge)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:21:06 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] PyPy Talks anyone got a copy?
Message-ID: <b33fdb110811212021o1fed6e70q1157b92a4625431e@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, I'm trying to get a copy of the PyPy talks, but there doesn't
seem to be anyone seeding the torrents. Does anyone have a HTTP copy I
could download? If so I could host them on my HTTP server for others
to download.

Timothy

-- 
Two wrights don't make a rong, they make an airplane. Or bicycles.


From holger at merlinux.eu  Sat Nov 22 10:25:23 2008
From: holger at merlinux.eu (holger krekel)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:25:23 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] PyPy Talks anyone got a copy?
In-Reply-To: <b33fdb110811212021o1fed6e70q1157b92a4625431e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b33fdb110811212021o1fed6e70q1157b92a4625431e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081122092523.GZ2219@trillke.net>

Hi Timothy, 

i am currently loading them up to: 

    http://codespeak.net/download/video-pypy/

from which you could copy them to your server. 
(it will still take a while) 

Once that is done i'd make the links in the video-index page
point to your server. Torrent is not neccessary, i think, 
because the talks are 2-3 years old and not requested much. 

thanks & cheers,
holger

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 22:21 -0600, Timothy Baldridge wrote:
> Hey, I'm trying to get a copy of the PyPy talks, but there doesn't
> seem to be anyone seeding the torrents. Does anyone have a HTTP copy I
> could download? If so I could host them on my HTTP server for others
> to download.
> 
> Timothy
> 
> -- 
> Two wrights don't make a rong, they make an airplane. Or bicycles.
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> 

-- 
collaborative expert contracting: http://merlinux.eu 
PyPy  Python/Compiler tool chain: http://codespeak.net/pypy 
pylib py.test/greenlets/svn APIs: http://pylib.org 


From glavoie at gmail.com  Tue Nov 25 02:32:43 2008
From: glavoie at gmail.com (Gabriel Lavoie)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:32:43 -0500
Subject: [pypy-dev] PyPy under FreeBSD 7
In-Reply-To: <693bc9ab0811210122qfcb6b04m7996cc2dcd868397@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d05df8620811201913l46bd3223r7ccba26c052ed3d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<693bc9ab0811210122qfcb6b04m7996cc2dcd868397@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d05df8620811241732t3cf5874cod34573943836c8e7@mail.gmail.com>

PyPy is currently building on my FreeBSD 7 with no problem at the moment.
I'll be able to tell more later. I had to modify a few files and create a
new platform to specify some include/lib paths. I'll have to see with you
Marciej on the best way to integrate that. About "errno", FreeBSD 7 does it
the Darwin way, probably to be POSIX compliant. Else, there are a few
includes that have to be added and some lib incudes that have to be removed
in order to pass the platform_check part. As I write these lines, the
translation just failed with the following trace:


[rtyper] specializing: 76200 / 83054 blocks   (91%)
[rtyper] specializing: 79800 / 83054 blocks   (96%)
[rtyper] -=- specialized 83054 blocks -=-
****************%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%************+++++++++......................

..%........................................................+++++++++++++++++++++
...*#%+..............................................++++++
[rtyper] specializing: 83100 / 85101 blocks   (97%)
[Timer] Timings:
[Timer] annotate                       --- 516.9 s
[Timer] rtype_lltype                   --- 443.3 s
[Timer] ==========================================
[Timer] Total:                         --- 960.2 s
[translation:ERROR] Error:
[translation:ERROR]  Traceback (most recent call last):
[translation:ERROR]    File "translate.py", line 275, in main
[translation:ERROR]     drv.proceed(goals)
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/translator/driver.py", line 805, in
proceed
[translation:ERROR]     return self._execute(goals, task_skip =
self._maybe_skip())
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/translator/tool/taskengine.py", line
116, in _execute
[translation:ERROR]     res = self._do(goal, taskcallable, *args, **kwds)
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/translator/driver.py", line 269, in
_do
[translation:ERROR]     res = func()
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/translator/driver.py", line 344, in
task_rtype_lltype
[translation:ERROR]     crash_on_first_typeerror=insist)
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py", line 180, in
specialize
[translation:ERROR]     self.specialize_more_blocks()
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py", line 252, in
specialize_more_blocks
[translation:ERROR]     annmixlevel.finish()
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/annlowlevel.py", line 240, in
finish
[translation:ERROR]     self.finish_rtype()
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/annlowlevel.py", line 290, in
finish_rtype
[translation:ERROR]     rtyper.specialize_more_blocks()
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py", line 226, in
specialize_more_blocks
[translation:ERROR]     self.specialize_block(block)
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py", line 347, in
specialize_block
[translation:ERROR]     self.gottypererror(e, block, hop.spaceop, newops)
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py", line 345, in
specialize_block
[translation:ERROR]     self.translate_hl_to_ll(hop, varmapping)
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py", line 474, in
translate_hl_to_ll
[translation:ERROR]     resultvar = hop.dispatch()
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py", line 709, in
dispatch
[translation:ERROR]     return translate_meth(self)
[translation:ERROR]    File "<codegen
/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rtyper.py:558>", line 5, in
translate_op_eq
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rint.py", line 161, in
rtype_eq
[translation:ERROR]     return _rtype_compare_template(hop, 'eq')
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rint.py", line 268, in
_rtype_compare_template
[translation:ERROR]     return hop.genop(repr.opprefix+func, vlist,
resulttype=Bool)
[translation:ERROR]    File
"/home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rmodel.py", line 339, in
_get_opprefix
[translation:ERROR]     self.lowleveltype)
[translation:ERROR]  TyperError: arithmetic not supported on <INT>
[translation:ERROR] .. block at 60 with 2 exits(v443)
[translation:ERROR] .. v445 = eq(result_0, v444)
[translation] start debugger...
> /home/wildchild/devel/pypy-dist/pypy/rpython/rmodel.py(339)_get_opprefix()
-> self.lowleveltype)
(Pdb+)


Any idea?

Thanks

Gabriel

2008/11/21 Maciej Fijalkowski <fijall at gmail.com>

> There is no reasonable, reliable way of getting errno under different
> operating systems. That's why we introduced per-system hack at the
> very bottom of ll2ctypes that tries to get errno. Can you think about
> a way to do it on FreeBSD? There is also nice, generic way to do it on
> top of python2.6, if you're up to trying it on it, I can provide the
> fix (it's not implemented yet).
>
> Cheers,
> fijal
>
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Gabriel Lavoie <glavoie at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >      I'm trying to translate PyPy into pypy-c on FreeBSD 7.0 but at the
> > beginning of the translation process I get the following error,
> >
> > NotImplementedError("don't know how to get the C-level errno!")
> >
> > from the file "pypy/rpython/lltypesystem/ll2ctypes.py". How can I solve
> this
> > problem? It seems it's python-ctypes related. I'm using Python 2.5.3
> (from
> > ports tree) and when I tried to build the port "devel/py-ctypes", it told
> me
> > that ctypes was provided with Python 2.5.x.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Gabriel
> >
> > --
> > Gabriel Lavoie
> > glavoie at gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> > http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> >
>



-- 
Gabriel Lavoie
glavoie at gmail.com
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From arigo at tunes.org  Tue Nov 25 13:54:38 2008
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:54:38 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] sprint in Wroc?aw (PL)
In-Reply-To: <77887e110811181452p5eae3f7bnb30c1ad8b9c42cae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77887e110811151701x5c178eedoaadb201b6d6f44c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<49216FF1.4020909@gmx.de>
	<77887e110811181452p5eae3f7bnb30c1ad8b9c42cae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081125125438.GA28831@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 11:52:00PM +0100, Bartosz SKOWRON wrote:
> > I would definitely like to have a sprint in Wroclaw! However, for me it
> > would fit better if it were a week later, since our lecture goes till
> > the 6th of february and the exams are in the week afterwards. You think
> > that would be possible too?

> I can't guarentee if it's possible for 9th-15 of februarry neither
> 16th to 22th...i have to go and check it, but would be better if we
> could set initial date, because it's easier to force something focused
> than not specified date ;)
> So, 9.02 - 15.02 2009 is still ok (we have still winter break then).
> Any feedback from others?

That's annoying.  It means I am busy at the University with Carl until
the 13th of Febrary; then the following week I am absent.  This means
that it's only possible for me starting from the 23th of February.


A bientot,

Armin.


From phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com  Wed Nov 26 12:29:10 2008
From: phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com (Phyo Arkar)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:59:10 +0630
Subject: [pypy-dev] Some Newbie Questions
Message-ID: <bcc23fcc0811260329m46085cc5iebae2be02f4a4919@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Pypy Devs!

I love python so much and I am so exicted by this ambitious project!

What I understand about this Project is to develop a version of python
, which is written in Pure Python .  SO now , i do not have C Skills
but I can Develop , Tweak , Make changes to python Just in Python , Am
I Right? SO In Future , it is possible that Guido himself will be
developing python in PyPy ?

Question : I have to use Python Or  RPython?

Also  By doing so , We can convert Python to Any langauge of Choice ,
which is very interesting.

I have build pypy-c with optimization Level 3 and stackless , whcih is
done flawlessly. I have seen benchmarks on one of the page and now
PyPy is even faster then Normal python 2.5 827 vs 810 ms on Richard
Test, it is very interesting .

Question : Resulting pypy-c is python 2.4.1 , is there python 2.5
Version of pypy-c avaliable? I saw a branch about it before by a GSOC
student but now is that already marged ?(my version svn is 4 days ago)

If that arleady marged , how can i build it to get pypy-c with python
2.5 support?

Another Questions is , If i follow my Python code in RPython , Can i
converty RPythonic Code to C and compile ? SO it is possilbe to
convert Existing Python Projects into C (if they follow Rpython)?

If So , how can it be done ? An example , i will be very appreciate .


Another , i compiled pypy-c in stackless , which is faster in term of
pypy-c's perfomance? normal or stackless?

If theres better performance options please let me know.

Also doing  , what are the extra modules added with --allworkingmodules ?

I am hoping in near future , i can help in this project after enough
understanding .

Regards,

Phyo.


From fijall at gmail.com  Wed Nov 26 12:44:38 2008
From: fijall at gmail.com (Maciej Fijalkowski)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:44:38 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Some Newbie Questions
In-Reply-To: <bcc23fcc0811260329m46085cc5iebae2be02f4a4919@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bcc23fcc0811260329m46085cc5iebae2be02f4a4919@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <693bc9ab0811260344y2df77928h9b69d4005c1fac9b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Phyo Arkar <phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Pypy Devs!
>
> I love python so much and I am so exicted by this ambitious project!
>
> What I understand about this Project is to develop a version of python
> , which is written in Pure Python .  SO now , i do not have C Skills
> but I can Develop , Tweak , Make changes to python Just in Python , Am
> I Right? SO In Future , it is possible that Guido himself will be
> developing python in PyPy ?

That's possible, although far in the future. Look here:
http://moderator.appspot.com/ and search for pypy.

>
> Question : I have to use Python Or  RPython?

Have to use for what? If you want to participate in PyPy project, you
probably need to know a bit about rpython, otherwise no, you don't.
That can be gradual and relatively painless though :) (probably better
than learning C or CPython's C API)

>
> Also  By doing so , We can convert Python to Any langauge of Choice ,
> which is very interesting.

No, only restricted subset of it, RPython.

>
> I have build pypy-c with optimization Level 3 and stackless , whcih is
> done flawlessly. I have seen benchmarks on one of the page and now
> PyPy is even faster then Normal python 2.5 827 vs 810 ms on Richard
> Test, it is very interesting .
>
> Question : Resulting pypy-c is python 2.4.1 , is there python 2.5
> Version of pypy-c avaliable? I saw a branch about it before by a GSOC
> student but now is that already marged ?(my version svn is 4 days ago)

Yes, it's merged into pypy-trunk. Download it from svn from here:
http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/trunk/

>
> If that arleady marged , how can i build it to get pypy-c with python
> 2.5 support?

Exactly like 2.4, just use trunk.

>
> Another Questions is , If i follow my Python code in RPython , Can i
> converty RPythonic Code to C and compile ? SO it is possilbe to
> convert Existing Python Projects into C (if they follow Rpython)?

The simple answer is: they don't follow RPython. I'm pretty sure about
this. You need to rewrite them from scratch, at least in parts for
that. It's not very helpful.

> Another , i compiled pypy-c in stackless , which is faster in term of
> pypy-c's perfomance? normal or stackless?

normal, although not by much. There is also an experimental option
--gcrootfinder=asmgcc which makes it even faster, but does not
cooperate well with ctypes for example.

> Also doing  , what are the extra modules added with --allworkingmodules ?

You should have list when you start compiling. For linux machine, it's:

    ["_socket", "unicodedata", "mmap", "fcntl",
      "rctime" , "select", "zipimport", "_lsprof",
     "crypt", "signal", "dyngram", "_rawffi", "termios", "zlib",
     "struct", "md5", "sha", "bz2", "_minimal_curses", "cStringIO",
     "thread", "itertools"]

(copy-pasted from file)

>
> I am hoping in near future , i can help in this project after enough
> understanding .

You're very much welcomed to do so. Come on #pypy on IRC, it's better
then mail sometimes.

>
> Regards,
>
> Phyo.
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>

Cheers,
fijal


From phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com  Wed Nov 26 21:47:24 2008
From: phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com (phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:17:24 +0630
Subject: [pypy-dev] Some Newbie Questions
In-Reply-To: <693bc9ab0811260344y2df77928h9b69d4005c1fac9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bcc23fcc0811260329m46085cc5iebae2be02f4a4919@mail.gmail.com>
	<693bc9ab0811260344y2df77928h9b69d4005c1fac9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bcc23fcc0811261247u306bd5pb0e165198b09af65@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you very much fijal , you have clear me up a lot of confusions.

>That's possible, although far in the future. Look here:
>http://moderator.appspot.com/ and search for pypy.

Very interesting , Do you think it will happen in next release of pypy
, next 2-3 years? As speed  (pypy-c) is already reaching to that of
Cpython .

>Have to use for what? If you want to participate in PyPy project, you
>probably need to know a bit about rpython, otherwise no, you don't.
>That can be gradual and relatively painless though :) (probably better
>han learning C or CPython's C API)

For contributing Pypy and If Guido retired , pypy may be at the level
to be able to continue Python development via pypy  (may be one real
choice).

>The simple answer is: they don't follow RPython. I'm pretty sure about
>this. You need to rewrite them from scratch, at least in parts for
>that. It's not very helpful.

i have some existing project which i would like to turn to C and
compile . All i need to is to follow RPython right ? After that How
can i compile to C ?


Oh one question , what is pypy's JIT for ?

And i will be joining to #pypy now.



On 11/26/08, Maciej Fijalkowski <fijall at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Phyo Arkar <phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi Pypy Devs!
>>
>> I love python so much and I am so exicted by this ambitious project!
>>
>> What I understand about this Project is to develop a version of python
>> , which is written in Pure Python .  SO now , i do not have C Skills
>> but I can Develop , Tweak , Make changes to python Just in Python , Am
>> I Right? SO In Future , it is possible that Guido himself will be
>> developing python in PyPy ?
>
> That's possible, although far in the future. Look here:
> http://moderator.appspot.com/ and search for pypy.
>
>>
>> Question : I have to use Python Or  RPython?
>
> Have to use for what? If you want to participate in PyPy project, you
> probably need to know a bit about rpython, otherwise no, you don't.
> That can be gradual and relatively painless though :) (probably better
> than learning C or CPython's C API)
>
>>
>> Also  By doing so , We can convert Python to Any langauge of Choice ,
>> which is very interesting.
>
> No, only restricted subset of it, RPython.
>
>>
>> I have build pypy-c with optimization Level 3 and stackless , whcih is
>> done flawlessly. I have seen benchmarks on one of the page and now
>> PyPy is even faster then Normal python 2.5 827 vs 810 ms on Richard
>> Test, it is very interesting .
>>
>> Question : Resulting pypy-c is python 2.4.1 , is there python 2.5
>> Version of pypy-c avaliable? I saw a branch about it before by a GSOC
>> student but now is that already marged ?(my version svn is 4 days ago)
>
> Yes, it's merged into pypy-trunk. Download it from svn from here:
> http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/trunk/
>
>>
>> If that arleady marged , how can i build it to get pypy-c with python
>> 2.5 support?
>
> Exactly like 2.4, just use trunk.
>
>>
>> Another Questions is , If i follow my Python code in RPython , Can i
>> converty RPythonic Code to C and compile ? SO it is possilbe to
>> convert Existing Python Projects into C (if they follow Rpython)?
>
> The simple answer is: they don't follow RPython. I'm pretty sure about
> this. You need to rewrite them from scratch, at least in parts for
> that. It's not very helpful.
>
>> Another , i compiled pypy-c in stackless , which is faster in term of
>> pypy-c's perfomance? normal or stackless?
>
> normal, although not by much. There is also an experimental option
> --gcrootfinder=asmgcc which makes it even faster, but does not
> cooperate well with ctypes for example.
>
>> Also doing  , what are the extra modules added with --allworkingmodules ?
>
> You should have list when you start compiling. For linux machine, it's:
>
>     ["_socket", "unicodedata", "mmap", "fcntl",
>       "rctime" , "select", "zipimport", "_lsprof",
>      "crypt", "signal", "dyngram", "_rawffi", "termios", "zlib",
>      "struct", "md5", "sha", "bz2", "_minimal_curses", "cStringIO",
>      "thread", "itertools"]
>
> (copy-pasted from file)
>
>>
>> I am hoping in near future , i can help in this project after enough
>> understanding .
>
> You're very much welcomed to do so. Come on #pypy on IRC, it's better
> then mail sometimes.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Phyo.
>> _______________________________________________
>> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
>> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>>
>
> Cheers,
> fijal
>


From glavoie at gmail.com  Wed Nov 26 23:20:52 2008
From: glavoie at gmail.com (Gabriel Lavoie)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:20:52 -0500
Subject: [pypy-dev] [patch] Modifications to trunk so it translates under
	FreeBSD 7 64 bits
Message-ID: <d05df8620811261420u391a752alf71426f651498a36@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
     I made some modifications to trunk so it translates under FreeBSD 7, 64
bits. Here is the diff. I know it's not perfect but at least it builds.

Gabriel

-- 
Gabriel Lavoie
glavoie at gmail.com
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From phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com  Thu Nov 27 18:17:31 2008
From: phyo.arkarlwin at gmail.com (Phyo Arkar)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:47:31 +0630
Subject: [pypy-dev] Problem importing csv
Message-ID: <bcc23fcc0811270917t6c730874xc666546ecbe5efdd@mail.gmail.com>

Hello;

I cannot import csv via pypy

Python Python 2.5.2 (pypy 1.0.0 build 60168) on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
And now for something completely different: ``this is a perfect channel
topic''
>>>> import csv
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<console>", line 1, in <interactive>
  File "/root/python/pypy-trunk/latest/lib-python/2.5.2/csv.py", line 7, in
<module>
    from _csv import Error, __version__, writer, reader, register_dialect, \
ImportError: No module named _csv

is _csv module not developed yet?
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From glavoie at gmail.com  Fri Nov 28 01:45:00 2008
From: glavoie at gmail.com (Gabriel Lavoie)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:45:00 -0500
Subject: [pypy-dev] [patch] Modifications to trunk so it translates
	under FreeBSD 7 64 bits
In-Reply-To: <d05df8620811261420u391a752alf71426f651498a36@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d05df8620811261420u391a752alf71426f651498a36@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d05df8620811271645p697e695fqf8aa566f49e5acb5@mail.gmail.com>

Slight modification, the last patch broke build under Linux.

Gabriel

2008/11/26 Gabriel Lavoie <glavoie at gmail.com>

> Hello,
>      I made some modifications to trunk so it translates under FreeBSD 7,
> 64 bits. Here is the diff. I know it's not perfect but at least it builds.
>
> Gabriel
>
> --
> Gabriel Lavoie
> glavoie at gmail.com
>



-- 
Gabriel Lavoie
glavoie at gmail.com
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From fijall at gmail.com  Fri Nov 28 02:59:23 2008
From: fijall at gmail.com (Maciej Fijalkowski)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 02:59:23 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] corepy - assembler from python
Message-ID: <693bc9ab0811271759sfd08d63w9590e49427ad6d34@mail.gmail.com>

for those of you that don't follow news usually: http://www.corepy.org/
seems worth exploring

Cheers,
fijal


From arigo at tunes.org  Fri Nov 28 14:41:43 2008
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:41:43 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Problem importing csv
In-Reply-To: <bcc23fcc0811270917t6c730874xc666546ecbe5efdd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bcc23fcc0811270917t6c730874xc666546ecbe5efdd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081128134142.GA3190@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi Phyo,

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:47:31PM +0630, Phyo Arkar wrote:
> I cannot import csv via pypy

Indeed, this is one of the few standard modules written in C that we
haven't ported yet (_cvs is not in pypy/module/).


A bientot,

Armin.


From arigo at tunes.org  Fri Nov 28 14:49:53 2008
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:49:53 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] [patch] Modifications to trunk so it translates
	under FreeBSD 7 64 bits
In-Reply-To: <d05df8620811271645p697e695fqf8aa566f49e5acb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d05df8620811261420u391a752alf71426f651498a36@mail.gmail.com>
	<d05df8620811271645p697e695fqf8aa566f49e5acb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081128134952.GA4036@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi Gabriel,

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 07:45:00PM -0500, Gabriel Lavoie wrote:
> >      I made some modifications to trunk so it translates under FreeBSD 7,
> > 64 bits. Here is the diff. I know it's not perfect but at least it builds.

Thanks, applied.


Armin


From fijall at gmail.com  Fri Nov 28 15:52:37 2008
From: fijall at gmail.com (Maciej Fijalkowski)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:52:37 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Problem importing csv
In-Reply-To: <20081128134142.GA3190@code0.codespeak.net>
References: <bcc23fcc0811270917t6c730874xc666546ecbe5efdd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081128134142.GA3190@code0.codespeak.net>
Message-ID: <693bc9ab0811280652g5a8e9bddgcd288e43da73708e@mail.gmail.com>

Or in pypy/lib ...

you can implement it using ctypes, should be super simple :-)

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Armin Rigo <arigo at tunes.org> wrote:
> Hi Phyo,
>
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:47:31PM +0630, Phyo Arkar wrote:
>> I cannot import csv via pypy
>
> Indeed, this is one of the few standard modules written in C that we
> haven't ported yet (_cvs is not in pypy/module/).
>
>
> A bientot,
>
> Armin.
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>


From cfbolz at gmx.de  Fri Nov 28 16:16:21 2008
From: cfbolz at gmx.de (Carl Friedrich Bolz)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:16:21 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Problem importing csv
In-Reply-To: <693bc9ab0811280652g5a8e9bddgcd288e43da73708e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bcc23fcc0811270917t6c730874xc666546ecbe5efdd@mail.gmail.com>	<20081128134142.GA3190@code0.codespeak.net>
	<693bc9ab0811280652g5a8e9bddgcd288e43da73708e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49300B45.5070001@gmx.de>

Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:
> Or in pypy/lib ...
> 
> you can implement it using ctypes, should be super simple :-)

why using ctypes? I don't think cpython's _csv is using any library.
It's just done in C to be faster. So a pure-python implementaiton is fine.

Cheers,

Carl Friedrich


From stephan at transvection.de  Sat Nov 29 11:37:38 2008
From: stephan at transvection.de (Stephan Diehl)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:37:38 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] documentation on codespeak
Message-ID: <49311B72.7060403@transvection.de>

Hallo,

I think that the pypy documentation on codespeak is still served from
the 'dist' branch and not the new 'trunk' branch.

cheers, stephan