From alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr  Thu Nov  2 15:38:10 2006
From: alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:38:10 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] IRC server unreachable
Message-ID: <20061102143809.GC26886@crater.logilab.fr>

Hi,

am I the only one unable to join any freenode IRC servers ? I get
connection refused errors on servers listed on
http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml

Or has the IRC network for pypy changed ? 

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
Informatique scientifique:               http://www.logilab.fr/science
Reprise et maintenance de sites CPS:     http://www.migration-cms.com/
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From sdouche at gmail.com  Thu Nov  2 16:00:25 2006
From: sdouche at gmail.com (Sebastien Douche)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:00:25 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] IRC server unreachable
In-Reply-To: <20061102143809.GC26886@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20061102143809.GC26886@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <5e1183fa0611020700r60c56374i95ef1dd20969fe3c@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/2/06, Alexandre Fayolle <alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> am I the only one unable to join any freenode IRC servers ? I get
> connection refused errors on servers listed on
> http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml

Hi Alexandre,
hugh DDOS on Freenode since 11h.


-- 
S?bastien Douche <sdouche at gmail.com>


From arigo at tunes.org  Thu Nov  2 17:52:02 2006
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 17:52:02 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] schedule()
In-Reply-To: <20060918084726.GB31821@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20060918075428.GA19879@code0.codespeak.net>
	<20060918084726.GB31821@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <20061102165201.GA8864@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi Aurelien,

On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 10:47:26AM +0200, Aur?lien Camp?as wrote:
> > I have to ask again.  Do you want me to add a hook in the logic objspace
> > that calls schedule() every Nth bytecode instruction?
> 
> Sure. 

See interpreter/test/test_executioncontext.py, or look at how
module/thread/__init__.py adds an action that is called back every Nth
bytecode instruction.


A bientot,

Armin


From alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr  Thu Nov  2 21:34:28 2006
From: alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:34:28 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] schedule()
In-Reply-To: <20061102165201.GA8864@code0.codespeak.net>
References: <20060918075428.GA19879@code0.codespeak.net>
	<20060918084726.GB31821@crater.logilab.fr>
	<20061102165201.GA8864@code0.codespeak.net>
Message-ID: <20061102203428.GB10288@crater.logilab.fr>

On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 05:52:02PM +0100, Armin Rigo wrote:
> Hi Aurelien,
> 
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 10:47:26AM +0200, Aur?lien Camp?as wrote:
> > > I have to ask again.  Do you want me to add a hook in the logic objspace
> > > that calls schedule() every Nth bytecode instruction?
> > 
> > Sure. 
> 
> See interpreter/test/test_executioncontext.py, or look at how
> module/thread/__init__.py adds an action that is called back every Nth
> bytecode instruction.


Great !

Thanks a lot, Armin. 

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
Informatique scientifique:               http://www.logilab.fr/science
Reprise et maintenance de sites CPS:     http://www.migration-cms.com/
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From cfbolz at gmx.de  Sun Nov  5 15:43:38 2006
From: cfbolz at gmx.de (Carl Friedrich Bolz)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:43:38 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Duesseldorf sprint report
Message-ID: <454DF89A.3090007@gmx.de>

Hi all!

it is with a familiar level of tiredness that we bring you these lines.
We are again sitting in one of the rooms of the Institut f?r Informatik,
after 6 days of sprinting. As usual, it has been a busy and productive
(and sometimes strange) sprint.

One of the new developments of the sprint was the work of Leonardo
Santadaga, our "Summer" of PyPy student from Brazil. Leonardo proposed
to write a JavaScript interpreter, had his proposal accepted and now
gets his travel to sprints funded. This work has seen good progress
every day, so that we now have an interpreter that handles simple
snippet of JavaScript code. Leonardo had help from various other people
changing over the course of the sprint such as Maciek, Guido (the
reluctant Master of JavaScript) and Stephan. The parser is currently
stolen from them Narcissus project, and the interpreter does not
translate yet. For less than a weeks work though we think are doing
pretty well (we are trying not to distract ourselves with crazy thoughts
like translating a JS interpreter to JS or wondering how fast it would
be after applying the magic JIT technology). Although Leonardo will be
flying back to Brazil soon he will continue working on it (at least if
he finds sufficient time between caring for his beloved new MacBook).

The other PyPy sprint virgin was Niko Matsakis, a graduate student at
ETH Z?rich. To start with he worked with help of Antonio on the
fledgling JVM backend. Antonio and Niko worked on moving code out of the
CLI backend to be shared with other object-oriented backends. They got
as far as supporting nearly everything except constants (which as usual
turns out to be the hardest thing to support). The team was split up
later in the week to work on Other Things. Niko only found out after he
_left_ the sprint that Samuele is one of the authors of Jython, which he
is interested in since some of his students are working on it.

Another topic that received attention all week was the JIT (dramatic
music). The architecture of the JIT has now crystallized enough to be
able to split up the work into the (for mere mortals largely
incomprehensible) "time shifting" front end and the (much more
straightforward) code generating backends.

Samuele and Arre started the week by adding some missing pieces for
things called "portals" in the front end. A portal is the part of your
code that marks the entry into JIT-land. For the PyPy interpreter it is
expected to be the bytecode dispatcher (or in general the main loop of
an interpreter). The JIT tests now take so long that they also had time
to work on translating rsocket, which is an RPython-level socket
library, and using it for implementing the socket module.

For the first few days of the sprint Armin and Richard took a DFA engine
(deterministic finite automaton) that Carl Friedrich wrote to lex Prolog
code and adapted it to be jittable.  On Wednesday Armin tried cast some
light on the dark internals of the JIT with a short talk about this
example. The DFA engine is viewed as interpreting the specification of
the automaton and then turned into a compiler by the timeshifter. This
compiler does not work in advance.  Instead calls to the compiler are
inserted into the transformed version of the DFA engine. If the DFA
engine is used to match a string against the automaton, the compiler
produces somewhat efficient machine code for doing that.

Richard's work (with the help of Armin and Arre) for the rest of the
sprint can be summarized as improving the timeshifter to be able to
"un-adapt" this DFA engine until it at least resembled the original
code. This involved adding a new piece of terminology to the
ever-growing JIT jargon "deep-freezing" (something to do with structures
that are so constant that even their contents are constant).

Concurrently, and with its own set of problems, Michael worked on the
JIT backend all week. He started together with Armin to document all the
sometimes non-intuitively named methods of the backend API, which has
only emerged in the last month or so. They renamed the most strange ones
afterwards. After that Michael and Eric did a little polishing of the
PowerPC backend and began to investigate writing an LLVM backend (C++ is
hard). Eric had to leave mid-sprint so Michael continued with Niko
(another Mac fanatic with insufficient funds to have a MacBook) to
improve the PowerPC backend. This involved fights with the calling
conventions, writing a greedy register allocator and lots of time
waiting for tests (they didn't manage to find a nice side-project). At
the end of the week the PPC backend can actually handle no more programs
than it could at the beginning, but we are very much happier about its
foundations.

After the break-day Samuele and Maciek started working on the project
that would occupy them for the rest of the sprint: adding "transparent
proxy objects" to the PyPy interpreter. A transparent proxy is something
that claims to be of a specific type (e.g. a list) but all operations
are forwarded to a controller which can choose how to implement those in
an arbitrary way, such as retrieving the values from a database, a
remote host or similar. For most operations the multi-method based
implementation of the standard object space made this relatively
straightforward. For the black-sheep operations this was some more work
but this is still something that, according to Samuele, "if you tried
this with CPython it would take so long that you wouldn't want it
anymore when you're finished". The motivation for writing these proxy
thingies is to experiment with transparent remote objects, orthogonal
persistence and security (there is also a plan to steal the pygame from
CPython by using them).

There was a little work on the side on the upcoming "apigen" tool, which
is a new part of the py-lib. This is something Maciek, Guido and Brian
Dorsey started before the sprint.  It runs all the tests of a package
(currently only the py-lib) and observes the behaviour of the running
code. From this it generates API documentation with additional
information like what types the arguments of the functions had, which
attributes of instances were changed...

Carl Friedrich spent quite some time on the deeply brain-taxing task of
populating the new rlib directory by moving various files there and
fixing all the imports. The rlib directory is meant to contain a library
useable from RPython programs, so the code in there is all RPython and
is supposed to make up in some way for the lack of a standard library in
RPython. Such modules have been accumulating in various places where
they don't really belong.

Samuele, Anto and Carl Friedrich had a planning meeting for the
integration of the .NET framework with the Python interpreter that Anto
plans to do. This means being able to call .NET functions and use .NET
classes from pypy.net. Samuele presented the two major approaches: The
simpler, but more annoying one is to write wrapper classes that have the
actual .net object as an attribute. For this you need to do conversions
at the language boundaries and thus suffer a performance penalty. The
other approach is to identify some of the classes of the PyPy
interpreter with .NET classes so that you can pass them around freely.

Guido and Carl Friedrich worked a small bit on the build tool, which
supposedly gives people a way to build PyPy on remote hosts. This is now
somewhat working modulo lots of annoying real-life details
(error-handling being one of them). Together with Samuele they had a
discussion about what to do in this area in the future. Various
realistic ideas (such as a web frontend) and unrealistic ideas (having a
quake configuration tool where you can hunt down and kill configuration
settings that you don't want) were discussed.

A very positive aspect of the sprint is that Christian who has been ill
for quite a while is back with us and now finding all the things we have
broken on windows in the meantime.

Carl Friedrich with the help of Anto and Guido spent a big chunk of time
near the end of the sprint in refactoring PyPy's file implementation.
The first step was converting the stream implementation which was living
at app-level before to be RPython and thus useable by other RPython
programs (such as Prolog interpreters, hint hint). Afterwards they
converted the file implementation to use the new facilities, which
involved the usual fighting with the annotator to make it work. This
should also make it possible to remove some horrendous hacks from the
.NET backend, as the new file implementation should make it easier to
move away from using a POSIX-like model (actually the .NET backend
contained a POSIX compatibility layer written by Anto just for this
purpose).

Since we cannot seem to come up with a witty closing remark, we just
stop.

Ade,

Carl Friedrich & mwh

-- 
  "... and the end result of all this is a dating site that matches
  people according to the sort of PyPy they compile."
                                                     -- Samuele Pedroni


From jacob at strakt.com  Sun Nov  5 16:44:55 2006
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 16:44:55 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Duesseldorf sprint report
In-Reply-To: <454DF89A.3090007@gmx.de>
References: <454DF89A.3090007@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <200611051644.55257.jacob@strakt.com>

Congratulations to you all. You have been extremely productive and seem to 
have managed to have fun at the same time. Wish I could have been there.

Jacob Hall?n


From paul.degrandis at gmail.com  Sun Nov  5 18:46:29 2006
From: paul.degrandis at gmail.com (Paul deGrandis)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 12:46:29 -0500
Subject: [pypy-dev] A new idea?
Message-ID: <9c0bb8a00611050946o713a970di4ef8b1165d78255d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

I started to work on PyPy about a year to a year and a half ago, but had to
quickly drop the project because of school and academic research I'm
involved in.  I really feel that even though PyPy is still at a stage of
rapid development and evolution it's about time that people start really
illustrating the true power of pypy.  I'd like to be that guy for you.  My
idea is simple, I'll write small but useful applications that really
illustrate the powers of pypy.  These small applications can be loosely
strung together as tutorials of language features or just examples of pypy's
superiority.  For some time now, I've developed small extensions to CPython
in form of models, c extensions, and decorations to add features to the
language that I find useful.  However, Pypy's architecture naturally lends
itself to these tweaks and in some cases supports them already.

So basically, I want to know your thoughts on this.  And if you have any
ideas for applications or features you'd like to see illustrated please let
me know!

Regards,
Paul
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From cfbolz at gmx.de  Wed Nov  8 16:06:09 2006
From: cfbolz at gmx.de (Carl Friedrich Bolz)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:06:09 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Summer of PyPy Call for Proposals
Message-ID: <4551F261.6050108@gmx.de>

Last chance to join the Summer of PyPy!
=======================================

Hopefully by now you have heard of the "Summer of PyPy", our program for
funding the expenses of attending a sprint for students.  If not, you've
just read the essence of the idea :-)

However, the PyPy EU funding period is drawing to an end and there is
now only one sprint left where we can sponsor the travel costs of
interested students within our program. This sprint will probably take
place in Leysin, Switzerland from 8th-14th of January 2007.

So, as explained in more detail at:

    http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/summer-of-pypy.html

we would encourage any interested students to submit a proposal in the
next month or so.  If you're stuck for ideas, you can find some at

    http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/project-ideas.html

but please do not feel limited in any way by this list!

Cheers,

Carl Friedrich Bolz and the PyPy team



From mistobaan at gmail.com  Thu Nov  9 15:22:11 2006
From: mistobaan at gmail.com (Fabrizio Milo aka misto)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:22:11 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] JIT improvements for RISC processors
Message-ID: <e437f2f0611090622tebc958fid0989134c1f4e2e6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi to everyone,

I am really interested in code machine generation for risc processors.
In order to have an idea of the work that can be done, and to create
a proposal I will ask some questions:

- What is already done? where is it? (paths, file names please)
- What ideas are already defined and need just to be implemented?
- Material that I have to / should read?

I have a rough background on RISC assembler,
the most comes from MIPS and IBM's PowerPC

some material I am aware of is http://tinyurl.com/9dw43


Don't let me escape for the second (last?) time!
:)

----------------------------
* P~ython Addicted *
www.fabriziomilo.it


From pedronis at strakt.com  Thu Nov  9 15:53:58 2006
From: pedronis at strakt.com (Samuele Pedroni)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 15:53:58 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] interesting paper on a object-oriented language for very
 constrained embedded systems
Message-ID: <45534106.6010101@strakt.com>

http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/virgil/virgil-oopsla06.pdf 
<http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/virgil/virgil-oopsla06.pdf>

RPython for different reasons or by different means does similar things 
already (devirtualisation,
separate flexible load time) and could be adapted to implement other 
aspects/optimisations as well,
under the no new allocations assumption.

regards.


From mwh at python.net  Wed Nov 15 12:11:22 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:11:22 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] JIT improvements for RISC processors
References: <e437f2f0611090622tebc958fid0989134c1f4e2e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87wt5xotgl.fsf@starship.python.net>

I was kind of hoping you would be in #pypy sometime in the last couple
of days to talk about this.

"Fabrizio Milo aka misto" <mistobaan at gmail.com> writes:

> Hi to everyone,
>
> I am really interested in code machine generation for risc processors.
> In order to have an idea of the work that can be done, and to create
> a proposal I will ask some questions:
>
> - What is already done? where is it? (paths, file names please)

Well, the code generation code is all in pypy.jit.codegen;
pypy.jit.codegen.model is a good starting place.

There is a somewhat complete x86 backend and a less complete PowerPC
backend (although I'm working on that right now and it will maybe have
caught up by the end of the week, in terms of functionality at least).

> - What ideas are already defined and need just to be implemented?

Well, the interface in the model file just referenced is more or less
defined, although there are a few details that it would be good to
change to make decent register allocation possible.

> - Material that I have to / should read?
>
> I have a rough background on RISC assembler,
> the most comes from MIPS and IBM's PowerPC
>
> some material I am aware of is http://tinyurl.com/9dw43

Also worth reading are IBM's "Compiler Writer's Guide" and Apple's
"LowLevelABI.pdf":

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/852569B20050FF7785256996007558C6

http://gemma.apple.com/documentation/developertools/Conceptual/LowLevelABI/LowLevelABI.pdf

For a Summer of PyPy project there needs to be some reasonably clearly
defined goals.  An obvious and useful target is improving the quality
of the generated PowerPC code -- I'm making it work at the moment, I'm
certainly not making it fast.  Another good thing would be sharing
some code between the PPC and x86 code generation (not so much the
actual code generation, but there are things about memory management
of code buffers and so on that are likely to be similar between any
machine code backend).  And once this is done, adding another backend
for say MIPS should be reasonably straightforward.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Those who have deviant punctuation desires should take care of their
  own perverted needs.                  -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp



From edreamleo at charter.net  Wed Nov 29 02:59:15 2006
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:59:15 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
Message-ID: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>

Hello all,

Excellent documentation at:

http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/getting-started.html#downloading-running-the-pypy-0-9-release

Alas, when I execute python pypy/bin/py.py from C:\pypy-0.9.0 on XP I get:

C:\pypy-0.9.0>python pypy/bin/py.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 207, in <module>
    sys.exit(main_(sys.argv))
  File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 78, in main_
    space = make_objspace(Options)
  File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 66, in make_objspace
    compiler = cmdlineopt.compiler,
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\baseobjspace.py", line 164, in 
__init__
    self.initialize()
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 98, in initialize
    w_mod = self.setup_exceptions()
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 219, in 
setup_exceptions
    mod, w_dic = self.create_builtin_module('_exceptions.py', 'exceptions')
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 164, in 
create_builtin_module
    w_dic = PyPyCacheDir.build_applevelinterp_dict(fake, self)
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 840, in 
build_applevelinterp_dict
    cls._setup()
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 895, in _setup
    p = lp(pypy.__file__).new(basename='_cache').ensure(dir=1)
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 276, in ensure
    return p._ensuredirs()
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 265, in _ensuredirs
    if self.check(dir=0):
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 102, in check
    return self.Checkers(self)._evaluate(kw)
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 75, in _evaluate
    if bool(value) ^ bool(meth()) ^ invert:
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 35, in dir
    return stat.S_ISDIR(self._stat().mode)
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 29, in _stat
    self._statcache = self.path.stat()
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 285, in stat
    stat = self._callex(os.stat, self.strpath)
  File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 205, in _callex
    return func(*args)
WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified: 
'C:\\pypy-0.9.0\\pypy\\_cache'

Any help getting started would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From santagada at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 10:02:07 2006
From: santagada at gmail.com (Leonardo Santagada)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:02:07 -0200
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
In-Reply-To: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
Message-ID: <2f2e5f950611290102n68d9d5f7i519b1b5d3958df@mail.gmail.com>

it seems to be a bug on py.path... it seems to be doing stat caches...
strange, maybe you can just coment out the stat caching for win32.

Just so you know I never worked with py lib internals... just giving my 2 cents.

-- 
Leonardo Santagada (http://www.lomohomes.com/retype)


From mwh at python.net  Wed Nov 29 10:29:55 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:29:55 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
	<2f2e5f950611290102n68d9d5f7i519b1b5d3958df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87k61eiorw.fsf@starship.python.net>

"Leonardo Santagada" <santagada at gmail.com> writes:

> it seems to be a bug on py.path... it seems to be doing stat caches...
> strange, maybe you can just coment out the stat caching for win32.

Earth pinging Fijal...

> Just so you know I never worked with py lib internals... just giving
> my 2 cents.

It makes some sense.  I was confused for a while because Ed mentioned
that he was using pypy-0.9.0... but of course, even if you check out
the 0.9.0 tag (Ed, is this what you did?), you get the trunk py lib,
because of the way svn:externals work.  I guess the release procedures
should include doing something about that, like svn cp-ing a
particular snapshot of the py lib into the tag.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
42. You can measure a programmer's perspective by noting his
    attitude on the continuing vitality of FORTRAN.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html



From shafranov at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 10:59:22 2006
From: shafranov at gmail.com (Alexander Shafranov)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:59:22 +0300
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
In-Reply-To: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
Message-ID: <74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I also noticed this problem, but when I used python 2.4 instead of
2.5problem disappeared.



On 11/29/06, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Excellent documentation at:
>
>
> http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/getting-started.html#downloading-running-the-pypy-0-9-release
>
> Alas, when I execute python pypy/bin/py.py from C:\pypy-0.9.0 on XP I get:
>
> C:\pypy-0.9.0>python pypy/bin/py.py
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 207, in <module>
>    sys.exit(main_(sys.argv))
> File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 78, in main_
>    space = make_objspace(Options)
> File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 66, in make_objspace
>    compiler = cmdlineopt.compiler,
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\baseobjspace.py", line 164, in
> __init__
>    self.initialize()
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 98, in initialize
>    w_mod = self.setup_exceptions()
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 219, in
> setup_exceptions
>    mod, w_dic = self.create_builtin_module('_exceptions.py', 'exceptions')
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 164, in
> create_builtin_module
>    w_dic = PyPyCacheDir.build_applevelinterp_dict(fake, self)
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 840, in
> build_applevelinterp_dict
>    cls._setup()
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 895, in _setup
>    p = lp(pypy.__file__).new(basename='_cache').ensure(dir=1)
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 276, in ensure
>    return p._ensuredirs()
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 265, in _ensuredirs
>    if self.check(dir=0):
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 102, in check
>    return self.Checkers(self)._evaluate(kw)
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 75, in _evaluate
>    if bool(value) ^ bool(meth()) ^ invert:
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 35, in dir
>    return stat.S_ISDIR(self._stat().mode)
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 29, in _stat
>    self._statcache = self.path.stat()
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 285, in stat
>    stat = self._callex(os.stat, self.strpath)
> File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 205, in _callex
>    return func(*args)
> WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified:
> 'C:\\pypy-0.9.0\\pypy\\_cache'
>
> Any help getting started would be appreciated.  Thanks.
>
> Edward
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
> Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>
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From hpk at trillke.net  Wed Nov 29 11:03:06 2006
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:03:06 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
In-Reply-To: <74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
	<74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061129100306.GO11948@solar.trillke.net>

On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 12:59 +0300, Alexander Shafranov wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I also noticed this problem, but when I used python 2.4 instead of
> 2.5problem disappeared.

hum, let me note that i think the problem has to do 
with Windows Error conversions, see the somewhat
icky _callex() function in py/path/common.py. 
Fixing this probably is easier with having an XP box 
and Python 2.5 around (thanks Alexander for pointing to it!). 

best, 

    holger

> 
> 
> On 11/29/06, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> >Hello all,
> >
> >Excellent documentation at:
> >
> >
> >http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/getting-started.html#downloading-running-the-pypy-0-9-release
> >
> >Alas, when I execute python pypy/bin/py.py from C:\pypy-0.9.0 on XP I 
> >get:
> >
> >C:\pypy-0.9.0>python pypy/bin/py.py
> >Traceback (most recent call last):
> >File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 207, in <module>
> >   sys.exit(main_(sys.argv))
> >File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 78, in main_
> >   space = make_objspace(Options)
> >File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 66, in make_objspace
> >   compiler = cmdlineopt.compiler,
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\baseobjspace.py", line 164, in
> >__init__
> >   self.initialize()
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 98, in 
> >initialize
> >   w_mod = self.setup_exceptions()
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 219, in
> >setup_exceptions
> >   mod, w_dic = self.create_builtin_module('_exceptions.py', 
> >   'exceptions')
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 164, in
> >create_builtin_module
> >   w_dic = PyPyCacheDir.build_applevelinterp_dict(fake, self)
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 840, in
> >build_applevelinterp_dict
> >   cls._setup()
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 895, in _setup
> >   p = lp(pypy.__file__).new(basename='_cache').ensure(dir=1)
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 276, in ensure
> >   return p._ensuredirs()
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 265, in _ensuredirs
> >   if self.check(dir=0):
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 102, in check
> >   return self.Checkers(self)._evaluate(kw)
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 75, in _evaluate
> >   if bool(value) ^ bool(meth()) ^ invert:
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 35, in dir
> >   return stat.S_ISDIR(self._stat().mode)
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 29, in _stat
> >   self._statcache = self.path.stat()
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 285, in stat
> >   stat = self._callex(os.stat, self.strpath)
> >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 205, in _callex
> >   return func(*args)
> >WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified:
> >'C:\\pypy-0.9.0\\pypy\\_cache'
> >
> >Any help getting started would be appreciated.  Thanks.
> >
> >Edward
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
> >Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> >http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> >

> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev

-- 
merlinux GmbH       Steinbergstr. 42    31139 Hildesheim   
http://merlinux.de  tel +49 5121 20800 75 (fax 77) 


From shafranov at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 11:28:25 2006
From: shafranov at gmail.com (Alexander Shafranov)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:28:25 +0300
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
In-Reply-To: <20061129100306.GO11948@solar.trillke.net>
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
	<74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129100306.GO11948@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <74fc943d0611290228y1baaa188ye274a4af0233bb77@mail.gmail.com>

Hm,

With 2.5 on XP box:

D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path>py.test
inserting into sys.path: D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\bin\win32\\..\py.test", line 4, in
<module>
    py.test.cmdline.main()
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\test\cmdline.py", line 13, in main
    config, args = py.test.Config.parse(args)
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\initpkg.py", line 180, in __getattr__
    result = self.__package__._resolve(extpy)
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\initpkg.py", line 68, in _resolve
    implmodule = self._loadimpl(fspath[:-3])
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\initpkg.py", line 98, in _loadimpl
    return __import__(modpath, None, None, ['__doc__'])
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\test\config.py", line 6, in <module>
    defaultconfig = py.magic.autopath().dirpath('defaultconftest.py')
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\magic\autopath.py", line 32, in autopath
    if basefile in current:
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 110, in
__contains__
    return self.join(other).check()
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 102, in check
    return self.Checkers(self)._evaluate(kw)
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 75, in _evaluate
    if bool(value) ^ bool(meth()) ^ invert:
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 41, in exists
    return self._stat()
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 29, in _stat
    self._statcache = self.path.stat()
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 285, in stat
    stat = self._callex(os.stat, self.strpath)
  File "D:\Tools\pypy\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 205, in _callex
    return func(*args)
WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified:
'D:\\Tools\\pypy\\pypy-0.9.0\\__init__.py'


On 11/29/06, holger krekel <hpk at trillke.net> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 12:59 +0300, Alexander Shafranov wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I also noticed this problem, but when I used python 2.4 instead of
> > 2.5problem disappeared.
>
> hum, let me note that i think the problem has to do
> with Windows Error conversions, see the somewhat
> icky _callex() function in py/path/common.py.
> Fixing this probably is easier with having an XP box
> and Python 2.5 around (thanks Alexander for pointing to it!).
>
> best,
>
>    holger
>
> >
> >
> > On 11/29/06, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >Hello all,
> > >
> > >Excellent documentation at:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/getting-started.html#downloading-running-the-pypy-0-9-release
> > >
> > >Alas, when I execute python pypy/bin/py.py from C:\pypy-0.9.0 on XP I
> > >get:
> > >
> > >C:\pypy-0.9.0>python pypy/bin/py.py
> > >Traceback (most recent call last):
> > >File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 207, in <module>
> > >   sys.exit(main_(sys.argv))
> > >File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 78, in main_
> > >   space = make_objspace(Options)
> > >File "pypy/bin/py.py", line 66, in make_objspace
> > >   compiler = cmdlineopt.compiler,
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\baseobjspace.py", line 164, in
> > >__init__
> > >   self.initialize()
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 98, in
> > >initialize
> > >   w_mod = self.setup_exceptions()
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 219, in
> > >setup_exceptions
> > >   mod, w_dic = self.create_builtin_module('_exceptions.py',
> > >   'exceptions')
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\objspace\std\objspace.py", line 164, in
> > >create_builtin_module
> > >   w_dic = PyPyCacheDir.build_applevelinterp_dict(fake, self)
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 840, in
> > >build_applevelinterp_dict
> > >   cls._setup()
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\pypy\interpreter\gateway.py", line 895, in _setup
> > >   p = lp(pypy.__file__).new(basename='_cache').ensure(dir=1)
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 276, in ensure
> > >   return p._ensuredirs()
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 265, in _ensuredirs
> > >   if self.check(dir=0):
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 102, in check
> > >   return self.Checkers(self)._evaluate(kw)
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 75, in _evaluate
> > >   if bool(value) ^ bool(meth()) ^ invert:
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 35, in dir
> > >   return stat.S_ISDIR(self._stat().mode)
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 29, in _stat
> > >   self._statcache = self.path.stat()
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\local\local.py", line 285, in stat
> > >   stat = self._callex(os.stat, self.strpath)
> > >File "C:\pypy-0.9.0\py\path\common.py", line 205, in _callex
> > >   return func(*args)
> > >WindowsError: [Error 2] The system cannot find the file specified:
> > >'C:\\pypy-0.9.0\\pypy\\_cache'
> > >
> > >Any help getting started would be appreciated.  Thanks.
> > >
> > >Edward
> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
> > >Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> > >http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> > >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> > http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>
> --
> merlinux GmbH       Steinbergstr. 42    31139 Hildesheim
> http://merlinux.de  tel +49 5121 20800 75 (fax 77)
>
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From arigo at tunes.org  Wed Nov 29 12:15:52 2006
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:15:52 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
In-Reply-To: <74fc943d0611290228y1baaa188ye274a4af0233bb77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
	<74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129100306.GO11948@solar.trillke.net>
	<74fc943d0611290228y1baaa188ye274a4af0233bb77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061129111552.GA30301@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi Alexander,

On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 01:28:25PM +0300, Alexander Shafranov wrote:
> With 2.5 on XP box:

There are many details that are known not to work with Python 2.5.  We
fixed some since the 0.9 release, but there might be some left.  You
should use Python 2.4, or try your luck with PyPy's HEAD revision.


A bientot,

Armin


From edreamleo at charter.net  Wed Nov 29 16:35:32 2006
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:35:32 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE><74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com><20061129100306.GO11948@solar.trillke.net><74fc943d0611290228y1baaa188ye274a4af0233bb77@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129111552.GA30301@code0.codespeak.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c713cc$02178360$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>

>  You should use Python 2.4

Yes, that works.  BTW, I think the getting started page is about the 
clearest, best such page I have ever seen.

I look forward to playing with pypy and to meeting you all at the next 
sprint, whenever/wherever that will be.  pypy looks like the most 
interesting computer language project in the world today.

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From paul.degrandis at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 16:42:18 2006
From: paul.degrandis at gmail.com (Paul deGrandis)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:42:18 -0500
Subject: [pypy-dev]  Crash starting pypy on XP
In-Reply-To: <001f01c713cc$02178360$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
	<74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129100306.GO11948@solar.trillke.net>
	<74fc943d0611290228y1baaa188ye274a4af0233bb77@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129111552.GA30301@code0.codespeak.net>
	<001f01c713cc$02178360$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
Message-ID: <9c0bb8a00611290742v1b315858y8fa1bb63604c74c4@mail.gmail.com>

> pypy looks like the most interesting computer language project in the
world today.

I also agree.

Paul


On 11/29/06, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
>
> >  You should use Python 2.4
>
> Yes, that works.  BTW, I think the getting started page is about the
> clearest, best such page I have ever seen.
>
> I look forward to playing with pypy and to meeting you all at the next
> sprint, whenever/wherever that will be.  pypy looks like the most
> interesting computer language project in the world today.
>
> Edward
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
> Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>
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From santagada at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 17:39:53 2006
From: santagada at gmail.com (Leonardo Santagada)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:39:53 -0200
Subject: [pypy-dev] Crash starting pypy on XP
In-Reply-To: <001f01c713cc$02178360$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
References: <001501c71359$f9671d10$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
	<74fc943d0611290159k11a9690cgdc6fcc714e099d7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129100306.GO11948@solar.trillke.net>
	<74fc943d0611290228y1baaa188ye274a4af0233bb77@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129111552.GA30301@code0.codespeak.net>
	<001f01c713cc$02178360$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
Message-ID: <2f2e5f950611290839i626bb438h13cd2e08a089fbf0@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/29/06, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
> I look forward to playing with pypy and to meeting you all at the next
> sprint, whenever/wherever that will be.  pypy looks like the most
> interesting computer language project in the world today.

You wrote Leo? I would really like if you could teach it to me on the
switzerland sprint (that is, if I went there) :-). One more great mind
on the project, welcome aboard.


-- 
Leonardo Santagada (http://www.lomohomes.com/retype)

N?o se preocupe com o que os outros v?o fazer. O melhor jeito de
prever o futuro ? inventa-lo.
- Alan Kay

From arigo at tunes.org  Wed Nov 29 22:37:48 2006
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:37:48 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] A new idea?
In-Reply-To: <9c0bb8a00611050946o713a970di4ef8b1165d78255d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9c0bb8a00611050946o713a970di4ef8b1165d78255d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061129213747.GA26408@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi Paul,

On Sun, Nov 05, 2006 at 12:46:29PM -0500, Paul deGrandis wrote:
> idea is simple, I'll write small but useful applications that really
> illustrate the powers of pypy.

Sorry for the delay!  Yes, this idea is attractive.  Do you have
particular projects in mind?  Areas of interest?

You are welcome to drop by in #pypy (in ~ european hours :-) and discuss
this - unless of course you did so already and we missed the connexion
between you and your nick :-)


A bientot,

Armin


From paul.degrandis at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 00:03:24 2006
From: paul.degrandis at gmail.com (Paul deGrandis)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:03:24 -0500
Subject: [pypy-dev] A new idea?
In-Reply-To: <20061129213747.GA26408@code0.codespeak.net>
References: <9c0bb8a00611050946o713a970di4ef8b1165d78255d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20061129213747.GA26408@code0.codespeak.net>
Message-ID: <9c0bb8a00611291503i59b2e570o2d8d828d12d31e05@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Armin,

Thank you for the input.  I'm working on some interesting research projects
but I have this project cooking to.  I agree I think it is very attractive.

I'm interested in general interesting applications of emerging technology
like Pypy.
Pypy has so many amazing features and aspects that there are a pool of
interesting applications to create.  Alternatively, there are also boring
applications
that when done with PyPy, offer an elegant solution.

Other areas of interest are autonomic computing, situation aware computing
(like application aware firewalls and situation aware protocols).  I'm also
currently involved in a Software Forensics research project with Drexel
University.

Paul


On 11/29/06, Armin Rigo <arigo at tunes.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> On Sun, Nov 05, 2006 at 12:46:29PM -0500, Paul deGrandis wrote:
> > idea is simple, I'll write small but useful applications that really
> > illustrate the powers of pypy.
>
> Sorry for the delay!  Yes, this idea is attractive.  Do you have
> particular projects in mind?  Areas of interest?
>
> You are welcome to drop by in #pypy (in ~ european hours :-) and discuss
> this - unless of course you did so already and we missed the connexion
> between you and your nick :-)
>
>
> A bientot,
>
> Armin
>
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From edreamleo at charter.net  Thu Nov 30 03:50:44 2006
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:50:44 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Some new first thoughts about pypy
Message-ID: <000501c7142a$54c66aa0$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>

The pypy tools promise to move programming (not just python programming) in 
new directions.  They may show a way to realize an ancient dream of mine, 
viz., to eliminate the gc for some (most?, all?) objects.  For details, see:

http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/whitepapers.html#allocating-storage-using-lifetimes

Of course, nothing at all may come of this; it's just something to keep in 
the back of my mind. Your (gentle) comments are welcome.

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr  Thu Nov 30 10:56:38 2006
From: alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:56:38 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] llvm backend issue on AMD64
Message-ID: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>

Hi,

While running translations with various options on an AMD64, I
encountered issues with the llvm backend: the translation fails when
llvm-as is called. The error message is::

 [translation:ERROR] llvm-as: <stdin>:586398: Redefinition of function 'LL_os_fstat'!

In entry_point.ll, I have a forward declaration of LL_os_fstat::

 declare fastcc %structtype_tuple10* %LL_os_fstat(long)  

and indeed 2 definitions of the function. The first one is at line
449952, and it has a structure very similar to the definition I get when
I translate in 32bit mode (but takes a long instead of an int as
argument). The second one looks like::

 internal fastcc %structtype_tuple10* %LL_os_fstat(long %tmp_13431) {
        %tmp_13433 = cast long %tmp_13431 to int 
        %tmp_13432 = call fastcc %structtype_tuple10* %LL_os_fstat(int %tmp_13433)
        ret %structtype_tuple10* %tmp_13432
 }


If I comment out this second definition, I get a similar error regarding
LL_os_lseek, LL_os_fork, etc. 

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
Informatique scientifique:               http://www.logilab.fr/science
Reprise et maintenance de sites CPS:     http://www.migration-cms.com/
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From eric at vanrietpaap.nl  Thu Nov 30 12:42:48 2006
From: eric at vanrietpaap.nl (Eric van Riet Paap)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:42:48 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] llvm backend issue on AMD64
In-Reply-To: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <8D17E8A2-A0A4-471B-B911-60145C89E5DB@vanrietpaap.nl>

Hi Alexandre,

Thank you for trying this out!

Do the llvm tests pass?

pypy-llvm has not been properly tested on 64 bit systems! Some  
efforts were made but compatibilty was never maintained because of a  
lack of such a machine.
If you could give me an account on your computer I could make sure  
that at least proper checks are in place.

cheers,
Eric


On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Alexandre Fayolle wrote:

> Hi,
>
> While running translations with various options on an AMD64, I
> encountered issues with the llvm backend: the translation fails when
> llvm-as is called. The error message is::
>
>  [translation:ERROR] llvm-as: <stdin>:586398: Redefinition of  
> function 'LL_os_fstat'!
>
> In entry_point.ll, I have a forward declaration of LL_os_fstat::
>
>  declare fastcc %structtype_tuple10* %LL_os_fstat(long)
>
> and indeed 2 definitions of the function. The first one is at line
> 449952, and it has a structure very similar to the definition I get  
> when
> I translate in 32bit mode (but takes a long instead of an int as
> argument). The second one looks like::
>
>  internal fastcc %structtype_tuple10* %LL_os_fstat(long %tmp_13431) {
>         %tmp_13433 = cast long %tmp_13431 to int
>         %tmp_13432 = call fastcc %structtype_tuple10* %LL_os_fstat 
> (int %tmp_13433)
>         ret %structtype_tuple10* %tmp_13432
>  }
>
>
> If I comment out this second definition, I get a similar error  
> regarding
> LL_os_lseek, LL_os_fork, etc.
>
> -- 
> Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
> Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/ 
> formations
> D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/ 
> services
> Informatique scientifique:               http://www.logilab.fr/science
> Reprise et maintenance de sites CPS:     http://www.migration-cms.com/
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev



From alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr  Thu Nov 30 13:29:04 2006
From: alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:29:04 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] llvm backend issue on AMD64
In-Reply-To: <8D17E8A2-A0A4-471B-B911-60145C89E5DB@vanrietpaap.nl>
References: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
	<8D17E8A2-A0A4-471B-B911-60145C89E5DB@vanrietpaap.nl>
Message-ID: <20061130122904.GE24889@crater.logilab.fr>

On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 12:42:48PM +0100, Eric van Riet Paap wrote:
> Hi Alexandre,
> 
> Thank you for trying this out!
>
> Do the llvm tests pass?

Unfortunately, no. See http://codespeak.net/~afayolle/summary.html for
details. 

The installed llvm version is 1.8b. llvm-gcc --version says
llvm-gcc (GCC) 3.4-llvm 20051104 (LLVM 1.7cvs)

> pypy-llvm has not been properly tested on 64 bit systems! Some  
> efforts were made but compatibilty was never maintained because of a  
> lack of such a machine.
> If you could give me an account on your computer I could make sure  
> that at least proper checks are in place.

I am afraid this is going to be difficult. The machine is inside
logilab's LAN, and only available through a VPN. However I'll be happy
to help solving the issue (trying to patch the code if pointed in some
initial direction, or applying patches and reporting back)
 

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
Informatique scientifique:               http://www.logilab.fr/science
Reprise et maintenance de sites CPS:     http://www.migration-cms.com/
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From santagada at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 13:36:41 2006
From: santagada at gmail.com (Leonardo Santagada)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:36:41 -0200
Subject: [pypy-dev] llvm backend issue on AMD64
In-Reply-To: <20061130122904.GE24889@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
	<8D17E8A2-A0A4-471B-B911-60145C89E5DB@vanrietpaap.nl>
	<20061130122904.GE24889@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <2f2e5f950611300436r764da43bq4f39a4d7046d6d23@mail.gmail.com>

At least If I remember correctly what samuele told me is that if you
really want to use llvm you should be using the cvs trunk version,
this might fix some bugs for you (or open new ones :-))

On 11/30/06, Alexandre Fayolle <alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 12:42:48PM +0100, Eric van Riet Paap wrote:
> > Hi Alexandre,
> >
> > Thank you for trying this out!
> >
> > Do the llvm tests pass?
>
> Unfortunately, no. See http://codespeak.net/~afayolle/summary.html for
> details.
>
> The installed llvm version is 1.8b. llvm-gcc --version says
> llvm-gcc (GCC) 3.4-llvm 20051104 (LLVM 1.7cvs)
>
> > pypy-llvm has not been properly tested on 64 bit systems! Some
> > efforts were made but compatibilty was never maintained because of a
> > lack of such a machine.
> > If you could give me an account on your computer I could make sure
> > that at least proper checks are in place.
>
> I am afraid this is going to be difficult. The machine is inside
> logilab's LAN, and only available through a VPN. However I'll be happy
> to help solving the issue (trying to patch the code if pointed in some
> initial direction, or applying patches and reporting back)
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
> Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
> D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
> Informatique scientifique:               http://www.logilab.fr/science
> Reprise et maintenance de sites CPS:     http://www.migration-cms.com/
>
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>
>


-- 
Leonardo Santagada (http://www.lomohomes.com/retype)

N?o se preocupe com o que os outros v?o fazer. O melhor jeito de
prever o futuro ? inventa-lo.
- Alan Kay

From alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr  Thu Nov 30 13:54:01 2006
From: alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:54:01 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] llvm backend issue on AMD64
In-Reply-To: <2f2e5f950611300436r764da43bq4f39a4d7046d6d23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
	<8D17E8A2-A0A4-471B-B911-60145C89E5DB@vanrietpaap.nl>
	<20061130122904.GE24889@crater.logilab.fr>
	<2f2e5f950611300436r764da43bq4f39a4d7046d6d23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20061130125401.GF24889@crater.logilab.fr>

(please, don't add me to the recipients when you reply on-list. I'm
subscribed. Thanks)

On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 10:36:41AM -0200, Leonardo Santagada wrote:
> At least If I remember correctly what samuele told me is that if you
> really want to use llvm you should be using the cvs trunk version,
> this might fix some bugs for you (or open new ones :-))

Well, the Debian package uses a cvs snapshot from 2006-10-21, and
apparently, llvm does not support AMD64. The support is "hacked back in"
by the package maintainer, so the problem may well be in the toolchain. 
(and maybe it's not that usefull trying to get that backend to work on
AMD64 until llvm supports the arch officially)

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France)
Formations Python, Zope, Plone, Debian:  http://www.logilab.fr/formations
D?veloppement logiciel sur mesure:       http://www.logilab.fr/services
Informatique scientifique:               http://www.logilab.fr/science
Reprise et maintenance de sites CPS:     http://www.migration-cms.com/
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From jacob at strakt.com  Thu Nov 30 15:38:48 2006
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:38:48 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] llvm backend issue on AMD64
In-Reply-To: <20061130122904.GE24889@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
	<8D17E8A2-A0A4-471B-B911-60145C89E5DB@vanrietpaap.nl>
	<20061130122904.GE24889@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <200611301538.48988.jacob@strakt.com>

On Thursday 30 November 2006 13:29, Alexandre Fayolle wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 12:42:48PM +0100, Eric van Riet Paap wrote:
> > Hi Alexandre,
> >
> > Thank you for trying this out!
> >
> > Do the llvm tests pass?
>
> Unfortunately, no. See http://codespeak.net/~afayolle/summary.html for
> details.
>
> The installed llvm version is 1.8b. llvm-gcc --version says
> llvm-gcc (GCC) 3.4-llvm 20051104 (LLVM 1.7cvs)
>
> > pypy-llvm has not been properly tested on 64 bit systems! Some
> > efforts were made but compatibilty was never maintained because of a
> > lack of such a machine.
> > If you could give me an account on your computer I could make sure
> > that at least proper checks are in place.
>
> I am afraid this is going to be difficult. The machine is inside
> logilab's LAN, and only available through a VPN. However I'll be happy
> to help solving the issue (trying to patch the code if pointed in some
> initial direction, or applying patches and reporting back)

I have an amd64 machine running a pure 64 bit debian system (etch). I can make 
an account available.

Jacob


From arigo at tunes.org  Thu Nov 30 18:58:10 2006
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:58:10 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] llvm backend issue on AMD64
In-Reply-To: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20061130095638.GC24889@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <20061130175810.GA13616@code0.codespeak.net>

Hi Alex,

On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 10:56:38AM +0100, Alexandre Fayolle wrote:
> While running translations with various options on an AMD64

We don't actively support 64-bit machines right now.  There are failing
tests.  They reflect known problems.  They are things to fix first
before we should try to debug the resulting inconsistencies.  No deep
problem, but still...  (We decided to focus on 32-bit machines for
simple lack of time.)


A bientot,

Armin


From mwh at python.net  Thu Nov 30 20:15:10 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:15:10 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Some new first thoughts about pypy
References: <000501c7142a$54c66aa0$6400a8c0@EDWARDOFFICE>
Message-ID: <87slg0hhkx.fsf@starship.python.net>

"Edward K. Ream" <edreamleo at charter.net> writes:

> The pypy tools promise to move programming (not just python
> programming) in new directions.  They may show a way to realize an
> ancient dream of mine, viz., to eliminate the gc for some (most?,
> all?) objects.  For details, see:
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/whitepapers.html#allocating-storage-using-lifetimes

Um, I think this technique is used reasonably often in the
implementation of compilers, is it not?  Even Python 2.5 uses it...

In the context of PyPy it's easy to think of a program where the use
of this technique is less clear: an interpreter.

> Of course, nothing at all may come of this; it's just something to
> keep in the back of my mind. Your (gentle) comments are welcome.

It is certainly the case that memory management is of utmost important
to the performance of pypy (looking at kcachegrind for, oo, half a
second will tell you that) but it is less clear how to do anything
about that.  PyPy already performs an analysis or two designed to
remove allocations, and a few more have been written but are not used
because they didn't help or are buggy.  They are all local to a
function so far though, I think.  Googling around I found this paper:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15745-s06/web/handouts/lattner-pldi05.pdf

-- would someone like to read it for me and tell me if it applies to
PyPy? :-)

The logical extension of the pool allocation idea is a generational
garbage collector, and I'd dearly like to have one of those for PyPy
but practically speaking you need a copying collector for one to be
worth it and we don't support that yet for grotty reasons.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Ability to type on a computer terminal is no guarantee of sanity,
  intelligence, or common sense. 
                                 -- Gene Spafford's Axiom #2 of Usenet