From mwh at python.net  Mon Feb  2 12:23:39 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:23:39 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: posting policies
References: <20040127073539187.AA4BD1C51F@lists.opraonline.org>
	<20040127133642.V6696@prim.han.de>
Message-ID: <2msmhtiv2c.fsf@starship.python.net>

holger krekel <hpk at trillke.net> writes:

> [opraeconnection-owner at lists.opraonline.org Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 07:35:39AM -0500]
>> Article rejected, un-authorized poster of pypy-dev at codespeak.net
>
> as many of you probably know by now this is a *virus* so just ignore it. 
>
> I guess we should either restrict the posting policy on codespeak and/or use some
> more filters (we are currently only using RBL filters, no content based
> filters).  I am a bit hesitant to disallow non-members of the list
> posting to pypy-dev.  Would this even work for the people reading the list over
> the gmane news/mail gateway? I doubt it.  However, for the time beeing, i'll 
> experiment with holding non-members postings and see what happens ... 
>
> Anyone out there who integrated spambayes and mailman in a nice manner
> and would like to give some advice? Otherwise i'll just go ahead and try
> to see what i can do .... 

I know the mail.python.org people have a system, so you could ask them.

If you have any ideas on how to keep the corpus up to date, I think
they'd like to know...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  "The future" has arrived but they forgot to update the docs.
                                        -- R. David Murray, 9 May 2000


From anthony at interlink.com.au  Mon Feb  2 12:39:34 2004
From: anthony at interlink.com.au (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:39:34 +1100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: posting policies 
In-Reply-To: <2msmhtiv2c.fsf@starship.python.net> 
Message-ID: <20040202113934.E616825AE97@bonanza.off.ekorp.com>


>>> Michael Hudson wrote
> I know the mail.python.org people have a system, so you could ask them.

Greg Ward posted the notes on what he's done to the spambayes list,
from memory.

> If you have any ideas on how to keep the corpus up to date, I think
> they'd like to know...

Yeah, that's a currently unsolved issue, as far as I know. Hassle Barry.
<wink>

Anthony

-- 
Anthony Baxter     <anthony at interlink.com.au>   
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.


From hpk at trillke.net  Mon Feb  2 13:40:59 2004
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:40:59 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: posting policies
In-Reply-To: <2msmhtiv2c.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <20040127073539187.AA4BD1C51F@lists.opraonline.org>
	<20040127133642.V6696@prim.han.de> <2msmhtiv2c.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <20040202124059.GB6785@solar.trillke.net>

Hi Michael!

[Michael Hudson Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 11:23:39AM +0000]
> holger krekel <hpk at trillke.net> writes:
> 
> > [opraeconnection-owner at lists.opraonline.org Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 07:35:39AM -0500]
> >> Article rejected, un-authorized poster of pypy-dev at codespeak.net
> >
> > as many of you probably know by now this is a *virus* so just ignore it. 
> >
> > I guess we should either restrict the posting policy on codespeak and/or use some
> > more filters (we are currently only using RBL filters, no content based
> > filters).  I am a bit hesitant to disallow non-members of the list
> > posting to pypy-dev.  Would this even work for the people reading the list over
> > the gmane news/mail gateway? I doubt it.  However, for the time beeing, i'll 
> > experiment with holding non-members postings and see what happens ... 
> >
> > Anyone out there who integrated spambayes and mailman in a nice manner
> > and would like to give some advice? Otherwise i'll just go ahead and try
> > to see what i can do .... 
> 
> I know the mail.python.org people have a system, so you could ask them.

Actuall i integrated spambayes and mailman on another machine two days
ago and it seems to work wonderfully.  I sent a preliminary patch 
for mailman (around 20 lines of extensions) to Barry. 

> If you have any ideas on how to keep the corpus up to date, I think
> they'd like to know...

I am currently practicing having a 'spam' and 'ham' account where
i bounce mails to from the 'unsure' category.  any mail to those
two accounts (or aliases in fact) is fed accoridngly into the spambayes 
database and stored for later scrutiny.   Mailman just uses this
database. 

Btw, I don't like re-inforncing the content-filter weights by feeding it
mail it already classified correctly.  So i currently only care for
'unsure'.  I probably will implement this on codespeak in the next days
and get rid of the many spam-mails i have to administer currently for
pypy-dev. 

My basic idea is: if a mail that gets into the mailman system is

- spam: discard it or maybe reject/bounce it which is nicer for 
        false positives (but which is very seldom)

- unsure: put it on hold and let a moderator/administrator decide

- ham: pass it to the subscribers

cheers,

    holger

From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Feb  2 14:03:32 2004
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:03:32 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: posting policies
In-Reply-To: <20040202124059.GB6785@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20040127073539187.AA4BD1C51F@lists.opraonline.org>
	<2msmhtiv2c.fsf@starship.python.net> <20040202124059.GB6785@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <200402021403.32193.jacob@strakt.com>

>
> My basic idea is: if a mail that gets into the mailman system is
>
> - spam: discard it or maybe reject/bounce it which is nicer for
>         false positives (but which is very seldom)
>
> - unsure: put it on hold and let a moderator/administrator decide
>
> - ham: pass it to the subscribers

If you document how you do this, you will be doing the world a great service.

Jacob


From hpk at trillke.net  Tue Feb  3 01:11:53 2004
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 01:11:53 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] danger on codespeak / password change neccessary!
Message-ID: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>

hello users of codespeak,

we today discovered that the account 'nico' on codespeak.net 
has been compromised probably due to a bad password. 

Before i go into some details please *change your password* 
immediately.  Besides users of codespeak.net this also affects 
all non-anonymous users of cvs.infrae.com (still an alias for 
codespeak.net).  Every non-changed password will be reset 
to some random password automatically after 2 days (on 6th
of february). 

We currently think that the attacker was not able to gain
more than user access and was not able to modify other than
the user's files.  If we find evidence of a more severe 
breakin than just abuse of one user account we may switch off 
the server without further notice. 

As the attacker effectively got to some encrypted
information in /etc/shadow (see later how) he may now
be able to crack any naive password in the next days. 

So please change your password - or even better - also install 
SSH-RSA Keys so you don't need to have a nice'n easy password. 

Here are some more details about our current findings. 

- the attacker installed new ssh-RSA keys and changed the 
  password of the compromised account 

- he went through a lot of configuration files in 
  /etc and tried to change them (unsuccessfully as
  far as we see it). 

- he then went on to install and run some password cracker 
  and IRC-net utilities (at least 'psybnc-2.3.1-8' and 
  'john-1.6') and ran them.  

- the attacker obviously didn't like 'vi' because he tried
  to find other editors like 'pico' which were unfortunately 
  not installed :-)

- he actually run the password cracker app for around 217 minutes
  accumulated time (when we killed it off). 

- he was able to create a password file which 
  resembled encrypted information from /etc/shadow which is normally
  not accessible by users.  Now the question is how he did the
  attacker get to this information which he didn't have direct 
  access rights to?  

  The probable answer (juding from the web server's logfiles) is that he
  was able to gain acess to a subversion-checkin of /etc/shadow at 
  http://codespeak.net/svn/sysconf/thoth.codespeak.net/etc/shadow 

  While everything under /svn/sysconf/ is not accessible anonymously
  *viewcvs* bypasses access control as it doesn't use the 
  apache-layer but directly works with the repository on the
  file system layer.  Apparently he found that by googling for
  it. Thus he was able to get to the encrypted information on which
  he then started 'john', the password cracker. 

Our countermeasures so far included: 

- disabling of login/ssh/public_html access for nico 

- killing two user-processes (one for IRC proxy-bots and one for
  password cracking) 

- generically preventing any URL with something like 
  'sysconf/thoth.codespeak.net' in it in order to not leak
  sensible system information 
    
- continued analysis of traces, logfiles and system binaries 
  which could be used to hide traces.  (actually the modern way
  of hiding traces is to install a kernel module which hides 
  itself from 'lsmod' and additionally hides processes and
  directories following specific patterns.  But it doesn't seem
  like the attacker was able to do this especially because he
  didn't know how to handle vi :-) 
 
However, as we must assume that the /etc/shadow encrypted information 
is now out there we it's an important safety measure probably a good 
idea that everybody changes his/her password unless you are sure
that you have a very good password (like the ones we usually 
generate for new users). 

If you don't know your password anymore or if you want a good random one
just sent me an mail. 

Please don't look around the codespeak system (e.g. into /etc) in the next
days when you login but just change your password.  Otherwise we may 
assume that another account is about to be cracked ... or if you
really want to look around (you are welcome) then mail us before
you start. 

sorry for the inconvenience,

    holger 

From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Feb  3 12:57:23 2004
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:57:23 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Proposal for Pypy talk at Pycon accepted
Message-ID: <200402031257.23560.jacob@strakt.com>

Acceptance letter included below. I'm happy for all input I can get on what to 
include in the paper.

Jacob

Regarding PyCon proposal #27 
(Pypy - implementing Python in Python):

We are pleased to inform you that your proposal has been accepted for
inclusion in the conference program.  We will be contacting you
further to have you confirm deadlines and give us more information
relating to your presentation.

Please remember that your presentation will be published on the web.
For the convenience of attendees, please provide us with your final
paper no later than one week before the conference (March 17).  We
ask that you make your paper available in plain HTML (no
JavaScript); PDF is an acceptable substitute, but you should make
sure to provide at least a clear and complete summary in HTML.  You
may also provide other formats if you choose.

Please note that all proposal submitters, regardless of whether their
submission was accepted or not, can still register at the early bird price
for an additional week, until February 7.

We look forward to meeting you at PyCon, where we hope that all members
of the Python community attending will continue to assist each other in
the best traditions of the open source movement. 

Sincerely

Steve Holden
Chairman
PyCon DC 2004


From roccomoretti at hotpop.com  Tue Feb  3 16:13:49 2004
From: roccomoretti at hotpop.com (Rocco Moretti)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 09:13:49 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] danger on codespeak / password change neccessary!
In-Reply-To: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <401FBAAD.4000101@hotpop.com>

holger krekel wrote:
> hello users of codespeak,
> 
> we today discovered that the account 'nico' on codespeak.net 
> has been compromised probably due to a bad password. 
> 
> Before i go into some details please *change your password* 
> immediately.  Besides users of codespeak.net this also affects 
> all non-anonymous users of cvs.infrae.com (still an alias for 
> codespeak.net).  Every non-changed password will be reset 
> to some random password automatically after 2 days (on 6th
> of february). 

Holger,

I'm still a little confused as to which passwords need to be changed.
Is this just for those people that have a shell access to codespeak.net, 
or does it affect those with just svn/cvs access too? Should we also 
change our wiki/roundup/mailing list passwords?

Sorry about the break-in. I hope you have everything under control.

-Rocco

From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Feb  3 16:28:58 2004
From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:28:58 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] danger on codespeak / password change neccessary!
In-Reply-To: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <20040203152858.GA22244@logilab.fr>

On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 01:11:53AM +0100, holger krekel wrote:

> we today discovered that the account 'nico' on codespeak.net 
> has been compromised probably due to a bad password. 

Ouch. That's very embarassing. That account was created for me during
the berlin sprint and I used it to contribute to the pypy EU proposal
when I was there and during the following weeks. I have never used it
since.

Holger, could you send me a tarball of the home dir for me to check
that nothing important was there ? I'm not even sure I ever logged
in using a shell.

I apologize for the trouble. I never changed that password. Next time,
we'll have to let the system generate one instead of picking up the
first word that comes to mind that will make a better temporary password.

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From arigo at tunes.org  Thu Feb  5 16:00:00 2004
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:00:00 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] danger on codespeak / password change neccessary!
In-Reply-To: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <20040205150000.GA19392@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hello Holger,

On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 01:11:53AM +0100, holger krekel wrote:
> - the attacker obviously didn't like 'vi' because he tried
>   to find other editors like 'pico' which were unfortunately 
>   not installed :-)

It's not me :-)


Armin


From tismer at stackless.com  Fri Feb  6 05:13:26 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 05:13:26 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] danger on codespeak / password change neccessary!
In-Reply-To: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <40231466.1060105@stackless.com>

holger krekel wrote:

> hello users of codespeak,

[lots 'o trouble, sorry to hear that]

> sorry for the inconvenience,

My immediate reaction would be to disallow password
only logins via ssh and to enforce to use keys with
non-empty passphrases.
Also don't use email without encryption to give new
passwords out. I have been hosed by this two times
(last millennium of course :-)

cheers - chris   (yes has been a small ISP)
-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 17:49:34 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:49:34 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] danger on codespeak / password change neccessary!
In-Reply-To: <40231466.1060105@stackless.com>
References: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
	<40231466.1060105@stackless.com>
Message-ID: <200402061749.34191.aleaxit@yahoo.com>

On Friday 06 February 2004 05:13 am, Christian Tismer wrote:
> holger krekel wrote:
> > hello users of codespeak,
>
> [lots 'o trouble, sorry to hear that]
>
> > sorry for the inconvenience,
>
> My immediate reaction would be to disallow password
> only logins via ssh and to enforce to use keys with
> non-empty passphrases.

*blink* how do you force sshd to only accept keys with non-empty passphrases?  
The passphrase is a client-side issue, not under the control of the server's 
system administrator.  Having sshd only accept authentication by key and not
by password would indeed strengthen security a bit (but unless all clients use
passphrases and/or keep their private keys securely -- nowadays, this means on
a USB key of some sort, such as those that they're starting to build into
wristwatches, pens, etc -- only a bit).

> Also don't use email without encryption to give new
> passwords out. I have been hosed by this two times
> (last millennium of course :-)

However, it's quite safe for a server's sysadm to receive ssh public keys in 
unencrypted email.  The worst a baddy can do upon intercepting that is allow
the client to login to the baddy's computer in a man-in-the-middle attempt,
but he could do that easily anyway with a tweaked sshd that accepts any
private key -- the real defenses against MitM attacks are others (including
client's awareness of the server's identification key...!!!).


Alex


From lac at strakt.com  Sun Feb  8 12:39:46 2004
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:39:46 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] neat academic paper on software prototyping and
	productivity.
Message-ID: <200402081139.i18BdkI9016273@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/hudak94haskell.html


Executive Summary:

take a jr programmer who has never seen Haskell before.  Give him 8 days with
the online manual.  Then tell him you get to make a Geometric Region Server
for the US Nacy Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC). When he was done,
surprise, surprise, the evaluators thought that the code he submitted
was only pseudo-code, requirements.  No. Working Haskell.  His version
was faster and done more quickly than other versions, written in more 
standard languages like Ada and C++.

VHLL rock.

Laura

From tinuviel at sparcs.kaist.ac.kr  Mon Feb  9 06:01:46 2004
From: tinuviel at sparcs.kaist.ac.kr (Seo Sanghyeon)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:01:46 +0900
Subject: [pypy-dev] Spy: From Python to PLT Scheme
Message-ID: <20040209050146.GA14102@sparcs.kaist.ac.kr>

http://spyweb.hopto.org/

I think you will find this interesting, if you didn't know about it yet.

I didn't try it yet, but from what I read from their documentation,
it looks quite complete.

From pedronis at bluewin.ch  Mon Feb  9 15:36:34 2004
From: pedronis at bluewin.ch (Samuele Pedroni)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:36:34 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Spy: From Python to PLT Scheme
In-Reply-To: <20040209050146.GA14102@sparcs.kaist.ac.kr>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040209153444.028be728@pop.bluewin.ch>

At 14:01 09.02.2004 +0900, Seo Sanghyeon wrote:
>http://spyweb.hopto.org/
>
>I think you will find this interesting, if you didn't know about it yet.
>
>I didn't try it yet, but from what I read from their documentation,
>it looks quite complete.

- No support for the Python standard library yet

see this thread:

http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2004-January/004616.html



From pypy.12.ghum at spamgourmet.com  Tue Feb 10 10:16:13 2004
From: pypy.12.ghum at spamgourmet.com (Harald Massa)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:16:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: neat academic paper on software prototyping
 =?utf-8?b?YW5kCXByb2R1Y3Rpdml0eS4=?=
References: <200402081139.i18BdkI9016273@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040210T101129-491@post.gmane.org>

Laura Creighton <lac <at> strakt.com> writes:

> was only pseudo-code, requirements.  No. Working Haskell.  His version
> was faster and done more quickly than other versions, written in more 
> standard languages like Ada and C++.
>
> VHLL rock.
> 
> Laura

You're more than right, Laura. Do you also know the Python-Version of the
problem? It's even shorter

import timemachine

t=timemachine.timemachine()
t.inventbeforeneeded("module","AEGIS")
t.commit()


import AEGIS

a=AEGIS.aegis("input.data")

a.analyse()

for it in a.output():
    print it

9 lines of code compared with 85 of Haskall is still an improvement, isn't it?


Harald






From tismer at stackless.com  Tue Feb 10 01:33:40 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:33:40 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] danger on codespeak / password change neccessary!
In-Reply-To: <200402061749.34191.aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <20040203001153.GV6785@solar.trillke.net>
	<40231466.1060105@stackless.com> <200402061749.34191.aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <402826E4.1020102@stackless.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:

> On Friday 06 February 2004 05:13 am, Christian Tismer wrote:
> 
>>holger krekel wrote:
>>
>>>hello users of codespeak,
>>
>>[lots 'o trouble, sorry to hear that]
>>
>>
>>>sorry for the inconvenience,
>>
>>My immediate reaction would be to disallow password
>>only logins via ssh and to enforce to use keys with
>>non-empty passphrases.
> 
> *blink* how do you force sshd to only accept keys with non-empty passphrases?

Unfortunately, the only thing you can do about it is to
beg, of course.

> The passphrase is a client-side issue, not under the control of the server's 
> system administrator.  Having sshd only accept authentication by key and not
> by password would indeed strengthen security a bit (but unless all clients use
> passphrases and/or keep their private keys securely -- nowadays, this means on
> a USB key of some sort, such as those that they're starting to build into
> wristwatches, pens, etc -- only a bit).

Well, I think it's a bit more, even without a phrase.
Although ssh encrypts passwords as well, these are
exposed to other services, and people tend to
use the same passwords in many places.
The fact that the user has to use a special key
makes this access method less vulnerable per se.
There is nothing to be sniffed elsewhere and used here.

>>Also don't use email without encryption to give new
>>passwords out. I have been hosed by this two times
>>(last millennium of course :-)
> 
> However, it's quite safe for a server's sysadm to receive ssh public keys in 
> unencrypted email.  The worst a baddy can do upon intercepting that is allow
> the client to login to the baddy's computer in a man-in-the-middle attempt,
> but he could do that easily anyway with a tweaked sshd that accepts any
> private key -- the real defenses against MitM attacks are others (including
> client's awareness of the server's identification key...!!!).

Nice to see the two of us on the same side!

cheers - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From tismer at stackless.com  Thu Feb 12 19:17:41 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:17:41 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Sprint on Stackless Python!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111825380.11552@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0402101646090.29866@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
	<40291EEB.7010201@stackless.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111449430.26111@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
	<402A47CC.1060606@stackless.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111557580.11552@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
	<402A5DD1.1070903@stackless.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111825380.11552@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
Message-ID: <402BC345.6010500@stackless.com>

***********************************************
***                                         ***
***   S t a c k l e s s     S p r i n t     ***
***                                         ***
***********************************************

Dear Stackless Friends and Python developers,

we are planning a sprint on developing and
learning Stackless Python.
It will be located in Berlin, happening probably
somewhere in March 2004.
Duration is not settled, maybe little more than a weekend,
maybe more, this depends on what you like.

Contents?
Well, there is a lot possible.

Current topics which come into mind are

* autoscheduling
* scheduling object
* brain storming!
* Zope Wiki and Documentation
* making channels really stackless
* find the Bajo bug if I still can't?
* demo applications
* more regression tests
* real zope apps?
* minimalist Stackless Python with no hardware dependency
* assembly-free Stackless with setjmp/longjmp
* spreading the internals between developers

but this is completely open for discussion.

Level?
Well, it will be a bit simpler than the pypy-sprints,
which I think are very difficult, but Stackless
has its built-in difficulties by nature.

Usability?
This is by far, now and forever, the best possible way
to learn about Stackless Python and to become a core
developer. But no guarantee possible :-)

Fun?
Guaranteed.

Please contact me.

cheers - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/





From lac at strakt.com  Sun Feb 15 12:39:50 2004
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:39:50 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Pycon preliminary talk schedule out.
Message-ID: <200402151139.i1FBdo2Z002767@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

I will skip a bit ...
I have devised a schedule that would accommodate all the talks in two
parallel sessions.  I hope it's at least a starting point for
discussion.

The schedule assumes the following daily schedule.

Daily schedule
- --------------
Keynote  9:00 - 10:00
Break   10:00 - 10:30
Session 10:30 - 12:00
Lunch   12:00 -  1:00
Session  1:00 -  3:00
Break    3:00 -  3:30
Session  3:30 -  5:00


<snip>

I gave ids to the session -- ex. Session 1.2b.  The first number is the
day (1, 2, 3), the second number is the session within the day (1, 2,
3), the letter a or b distinguishes between parallel tracks.

Jeremy


<snip>

Session 1.2a (4)
- ---------------
IronPython: a fresh look at Python on .Net
Jim Hugunin

Faster than C: Static Type Inference with Starkiller
Michael Salib

Pypy - implementing Python in Python
Jacob Hall?n 

>From Python to PLT Scheme
Daniel Silva

Session 1.2b (4)
- ----------------
Python in Chemical and Bioinformatics
Andrew Dalke

A Finite Volume PDE Solver Using Python
Daniel Wheeler and Jon Guyer

Data Extraction and Analysis Program
Amy L. Shelton

Modeling of a Fuel Fabrication Facility Using Python and SimPy
J.D. Doak

<snip>

So it looks as if we are to give a technical talk in with a bunch
of other technical talks about New Pythons, opposite Scientific
Apps using Python.

Laura

From tismer at stackless.com  Sun Feb 15 17:39:39 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:39:39 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Pycon preliminary talk schedule out.
In-Reply-To: <200402151139.i1FBdo2Z002767@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200402151139.i1FBdo2Z002767@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <402FA0CB.2000901@stackless.com>

Laura Creighton wrote:

> So it looks as if we are to give a technical talk in with a bunch
> of other technical talks about New Pythons, opposite Scientific
> Apps using Python.

Congratulations!

ciao - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From arigo at tunes.org  Tue Feb 17 22:58:58 2004
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:58:58 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Multimethods again
Message-ID: <20040217215858.GA5729@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hello everybody,

I just found out a neat way to do simple multimethods in Python, so I thought 
I'd share it with you :-)

The following is only for dispatching over two arguments.  The idea is to use 
a pair(a,b) object that is just like a tuple (a,b), but with methods.  Any 
(regular Python) method that you put in the class of pair(a,b) works like a 
multimethod dispatching on both a and b.  The metaclass hack is only a 
syntactic convenience.

I don't know if this is relevant to PyPy.  It's probably one of the shortest 
multimethod implementations for Python, whereas PyPy's is probably one of the 
longest :-)

Armin

# ______________________________________________

class extendabletype(type):
    """A type with a syntax trick: 'class __extend__(t)' actually extends
    the definition of 't' instead of creating a new subclass."""
    
    def __new__(cls, name, bases, dict):
        if name == '__extend__':
            return bases[0]   # return existing base
        else:
            return type.__new__(cls, name, bases, dict)
    
    def __init__(self, name, bases, dict):
        if name == '__extend__':
            for key, value in dict.items():
                setattr(self, key, value)


def pair(a, b):
    """Return a pair object."""
    tp = typeofpair(a.__class__, b.__class__)
    return tp((a, b))   # tp is a subclass of tuple

pairtypecache = {}

def typeofpair(cls1, cls2):
    """type(pair(a,b)) is typeofpair(a.__class__, b.__class__)."""
    try:
        pair = pairtypecache[cls1, cls2]
    except KeyError:
        name = 'typeofpair(%s, %s)' % (cls1.__name__, cls2.__name__)
        bases1 = [typeofpair(base1, cls2) for base1 in cls1.__bases__]
        bases2 = [typeofpair(cls1, base2) for base2 in cls2.__bases__]
        bases = tuple(bases1 + bases2) or (tuple,)  # 'tuple': ultimate base
        pair = pairtypecache[cls1, cls2] = extendabletype(name, bases, {})
    return pair

# ____________________________________________________________


class A(object):
    pass

class B(object):
    pass

class C(A):
    pass

class D(B):
    pass

a = A()
b = B()
c = C()
d = D()
assert isinstance(pair(a,b), typeofpair(A, B))


class __extend__(typeofpair(A, B)):
    
    def add((a, b)):
        print "a+b"
        
    def sub((a, b)):
        print "a-b"


class __extend__(typeofpair(C, B)):

    def add((c, b)):
        print "c+b"


# alternate less magic syntax
def sub((a, d)):
    print "a-d"
typeofpair(A, D).sub = sub


pair(a,b).add()
pair(a,b).sub()
pair(c,d).add()
pair(c,d).sub()


From lac at strakt.com  Fri Feb 20 12:34:59 2004
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:34:59 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] 
 Looks like a place for the 'interpreted languages need not be slow' talk
Message-ID: <200402201134.i1KBYxmS019171@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de/InterpretedLanguages2004/

This workshop is part of the Net.ObjectDays, a conference
on OO- and Internet-based technologies:

    http://www.netobjectdays.org/node04/en/index.html

Should we give a paper?

Laura

From hpk at trillke.net  Fri Feb 20 20:04:03 2004
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:04:03 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Looks like a place for the 'interpreted languages need
	not be slow' talk
In-Reply-To: <200402201134.i1KBYxmS019171@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200402201134.i1KBYxmS019171@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20040220190402.GR16808@solar.trillke.net>

[Laura Creighton Fri, Feb 20, 2004 at 12:34:59PM +0100]
> http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de/InterpretedLanguages2004/
> 
> This workshop is part of the Net.ObjectDays, a conference
> on OO- and Internet-based technologies:
> 
>     http://www.netobjectdays.org/node04/en/index.html
> 
> Should we give a paper?

I guess so.  As this takes place in germany i guess either
Christian or me or both should go for this ... 

cheers,

    holger

From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr  Thu Feb 26 09:11:33 2004
From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:11:33 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Trac, a wiki/tracker system using subversion
Message-ID: <20040226081133.GA30138@logilab.fr>

Hi,

I have not tried it, but thought this might be of interest since I read here
discussions about developping such a tool, IIRC. It's GPL and written in
Python.

----- Forwarded message from Daniel Lundin <daniel at edgewall.com> -----

Trac 0.5.1 Release Notes
========================
Feb 25, 2004

Edgewall Software is pleased to announce the release of Trac 0.5.1.

Trac is a minimalistic web-based software project management and bug/issue
tracking system. It provides an interface to Subversion, an integrated Wiki
and convenient report facilities.

Trac allows wiki markup in issue descriptions and commit messages, to create
links and seamless references between bugs, tasks, changesets, files and wiki
pages.  A timeline shows all project events in order, making getting an
overview of the project and tracking progress very easy.

The software is published under the GNU General Public License, and is
available for download at:

   <http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/download/>

Please report problems and provide feedback using the issue tracker at:

   <http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/>

For questions, comments and discussions, please use the Trac mailing list -
list info, subscription and archive available at:

   <http://lists.edgewall.com/mailman/listinfo/trac/>

For more information, please visit the main Trac web site:

   <http://trac.edgewall.com/>

--
Daniel Lundin         |   Edgewall Software
daniel at edgewall.com   |   Professional GNU/Linux & Open Source Consulting
                           http://www.edgewall.com/
 
----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From tismer at stackless.com  Thu Feb 26 18:12:22 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:12:22 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Multimethods again
In-Reply-To: <20040217215858.GA5729@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>
References: <20040217215858.GA5729@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <403E28F6.6050801@stackless.com>

Armin Rigo wrote:

> Hello everybody,
> 
> I just found out a neat way to do simple multimethods in Python, so I thought 
> I'd share it with you :-)

Hoohooo, is that! neat.

> The following is only for dispatching over two arguments.  The idea is to use 
> a pair(a,b) object that is just like a tuple (a,b), but with methods.  Any 
> (regular Python) method that you put in the class of pair(a,b) works like a 
> multimethod dispatching on both a and b.  The metaclass hack is only a 
> syntactic convenience.
> 
> I don't know if this is relevant to PyPy.  It's probably one of the shortest 
> multimethod implementations for Python, whereas PyPy's is probably one of the 
> longest :-)

I like the idea very much! Can we adopt this for pypy?
Highly elegant.
Also it appears to be quite efficient.

ciao - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/


From arigo at tunes.org  Fri Feb 27 17:15:52 2004
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:15:52 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Multimethods again
In-Reply-To: <403E28F6.6050801@stackless.com>
References: <20040217215858.GA5729@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>
	<403E28F6.6050801@stackless.com>
Message-ID: <20040227161552.GA30483@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hello Christian,

On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 06:12:22PM +0100, Christian Tismer wrote:
> I like the idea very much! Can we adopt this for pypy?
> Highly elegant.
> Also it appears to be quite efficient.

It?s worth thinking about.  There are actually variations on the idea that
I?ve been playing around for other uses as well, like context-dependent
methods on objects.  For example, suppose that we have a class R_Int in the
translator for "Python integer".  This one would be pretty generic, created by
the annotation analysis.  Then we need to translate it, either to C or to
Lisp.  This would be best done with methods on R_Int like get_c_type(),
define_c_variable(), etc., and the same for Lisp.  It is not elegant to have
all these methods added to the pretty general and translation-independent 
class R_Int, but it is a burden to have to use isinstance(x, R_Yyy) all the 
time.  So we could have a "view" class with a special meta-class:

class CWriter(View):
    pass

class __view__(CWriter, R_Int):
    def get_c_type(self):
        # self is here an R_Int instance
    def define_c_variable(self):
        etc.

To be used as:

    CWriter(x).define_c_variable()

So CWriter(x) is similar to pair(x,y) in the multimethod example, with just
one argument in this case: it means "a proxy object around x whose type is the
one defined by the class __view__(CWriter, x.__class__)".

This can have numerous usages, e.g. for the awful pypy_xxx methods that some
built-in classes have (PyFrame, PyCode, etc.).


A bientot,

Armin.


From tismer at stackless.com  Fri Feb 27 20:47:44 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:47:44 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Sprint on Stackless Python March 10-14 in Berlin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111825380.11552@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0402101646090.29866@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
	<40291EEB.7010201@stackless.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111449430.26111@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
	<402A47CC.1060606@stackless.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111557580.11552@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
	<402A5DD1.1070903@stackless.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0402111825380.11552@echo.ukshells.co.uk>
Message-ID: <403F9EE0.1070309@stackless.com>

As already announced, the

***********************************************
***                                         ***
***   S t a c k l e s s     S p r i n t     ***
***                                         ***
***********************************************

has now a settled date:
It will take place in Berlin, March 10-14 2004.

We will have a room in the Free University of Berlin
in Berlin-Dahlem. Address and room will be announced,
soon.

How to attend?
See bottom of this message.

Contents?
Well, there is a lot possible.

Current topics which come into mind are

* autoscheduling
* scheduling object
* brain storming!
* Zope Wiki and Documentation
* making channels really stackless
* demo applications
* more regression tests
* real zope apps?
* refactoring Stackless: simpler and configurable
* create a Stackless tutorial
* minimalist Stackless Python with no hardware dependency
* assembly-free Stackless with setjmp/longjmp
* spreading the internals between developers

but this is completely open for discussion.

Level?
Well, it will be a bit simpler than the pypy-sprints,
which I think are very difficult, but Stackless
has its built-in difficulties by nature.

Usability?
This is by far, now and forever, the best possible way
to learn about Stackless Python and to become a core
developer. But no guarantee possible :-)

Payback?
Well, it is intended that Stackless Python should
be developed further. If you are using or planning to
use Stackless for your products, you are highly encouraged
to support Stackless Python by money and by submitting
your best developers, regardless how painfully they are
going to be missed by the company.

Coaching?
Yes, it is probable and whished, that Stackless Python
will become a topic for training and coaching.
First of all, we will try to leverage our knowledge.

Fun?
Guaranteed.

Schedule
--------
There is no particular schedule, yet, but for the first day.
I am planning to give a talk on Stackless technology, and
to be available for questions and discussion during the
whole first day.
Attendees with small or no knowledge about Stackless Python
are strongly encouraged to join that session.

Accomodation
------------
There are no special arrangements planned. We hope to find
a place for every external sprinter at the home of the
Berlin habitants. I'm taking two already, please don't ask.

How to attend:
--------------
Please subscribe to the mailing list

        stackless-sprint at stackless.com

which you can find via this interface:
http://www.stackless.com/mailman/listinfo/stackless-sprint

By subscribing, you state that you want to come to the sprint.
We have only limited reources left and can take only a few.

-------

I hereby wish to thank *Dirk Pape* and *Christoph v. Stuckrad*
from FU Berlin for making this event possible!

cheers - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/





From lac at strakt.com  Sat Feb 28 12:47:50 2004
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:47:50 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] sounds like fun.
Message-ID: <200402281147.i1SBlofQ010713@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

http://www.flashmobcomputing.org

From hpk at trillke.net  Sun Feb 29 11:48:48 2004
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:48:48 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] sounds like fun.
In-Reply-To: <200402281147.i1SBlofQ010713@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200402281147.i1SBlofQ010713@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20040229104848.GC5931@solar.trillke.net>

[Laura Creighton Sat, Feb 28, 2004 at 12:47:50PM +0100]
> http://www.flashmobcomputing.org

just need to grab a plane :-) More seriously, i wonder if
they couldn't do it over the internet ...

Another interesting question what this has to do with
PyPy (or did i miss anything?) :-)

cheers,

    holger

From lac at strakt.com  Sun Feb 29 12:06:23 2004
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:06:23 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] sounds like fun. 
In-Reply-To: Message from holger krekel <hpk@trillke.net> 
	of "Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:48:48 +0100."
	<20040229104848.GC5931@solar.trillke.net> 
References: <200402281147.i1SBlofQ010713@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<20040229104848.GC5931@solar.trillke.net> 
Message-ID: <200402291106.i1TB6Np9013968@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

In a message of Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:48:48 +0100, holger krekel writes:
>[Laura Creighton Sat, Feb 28, 2004 at 12:47:50PM +0100]
>> http://www.flashmobcomputing.org
>
>just need to grab a plane :-) More seriously, i wonder if
>they couldn't do it over the internet ...
>
>Another interesting question what this has to do with
>PyPy (or did i miss anything?) :-)
>
>cheers,
>
>    holger

Well, I was vaguely thinking -- aha, so _that's_ the sort of operating
system we need to make, to handle these sorts of crazy people -- and,
indeed, why not over the internet?  (For these people, of course,
it is 'so we can get media attention').  People are at least trying
to think about networking in different ways :-)

Be nice if we gave them a language they didn't have to count the bits
in to develop some of these ideas.

But that all sort of just passed through my mind in a nice rosy
feeling, and then I posted here...  sorry about that...

Laura