From bokr at oz.net Thu Apr 1 00:07:32 2004 From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:07:32 -0800 Subject: [pypy-dev] Of interest, eventually? (IBM opening ppc h/w design) Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040331131127.00a70100@mail.oz.net> Here is IBM's announcement: http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/news/2004/0331_power.html and Wired's blurb on it: http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,62885,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2 What would you do if you could design ideal h/w support for python or a python VM? For memory allocation/garbage collection? Monitoring/detecting dynamic conditions triggering recompilation/re-optimization etc? Position-independent code and structures? Threading/context switching/timeouts/atomic queue stuff/etc? Profiling support at the hardware level? Crypto stuff? Sandboxing/capability support/etc? How would pypy adapt-to/have-an-advantage-in-exploiting the existence of such a configurable h/w platform? Anyway, just thought I'd pass on an interesting blurb maybe to keep in mind. Regards, Bengt Richter From aleaxit at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 20:53:36 2004 From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:53:36 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Of interest, eventually? (IBM opening ppc h/w design) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20040331131127.00a70100@mail.oz.net> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20040331131127.00a70100@mail.oz.net> Message-ID: On 2004 Apr 01, at 00:07, Bengt Richter wrote: > Here is IBM's announcement: > > http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/news/2004/0331_power.html Wow. > How would pypy adapt-to/have-an-advantage-in-exploiting the existence > of such a > configurable h/w platform? > First of all, it seems to me, by having a generator for PPC machine code -- which, it seems, was one of the things dropped from our projects due to reduced funding:-(. With PPC (in the form of plain unadorned G5) pulsing at the core of supercomputers ("Big Mac" at Virginia Tech), IBM mainframes, Apple 1U servers, down to high-end Apple PCs, and soon, probably, laptops, and also a serious contender for the next generation of gaming consoles (apparently both Sony and Microsoft are considering it), _and_ now even potentially "extensible" in such ways, I think that if I had to nominate just one chip architecture to generate machine code for it would have to be PPC (the fact that I'm a recent and enthusiastic Mac owner is not really related, except in stemming partly from the same reason -- I've revisited PPC architecture in the wake of all the recent hoopla about G5 and it appears that there _is_ a lot to like about it). Ah well -- I do realize that, with our limited resources, the near ubiquitousness of the [expletive deleted] descendants of Intel 80386 makes it most likely impractical and impolitical to eschew supporting their bedraggled complexity in favour of PPC's clean and powerful extensibility:-(. Alex From bob at redivi.com Fri Apr 2 09:46:38 2004 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 02:46:38 -0500 Subject: [pypy-dev] Of interest, eventually? (IBM opening ppc h/w design) In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.1.20040331131127.00a70100@mail.oz.net> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2004, at 1:53 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > > On 2004 Apr 01, at 00:07, Bengt Richter wrote: > >> Here is IBM's announcement: >> >> http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/news/2004/0331_power.html > > Wow. > >> How would pypy adapt-to/have-an-advantage-in-exploiting the existence >> of such a >> configurable h/w platform? >> > First of all, it seems to me, by having a generator for PPC machine > code -- which, it seems, was one of the things dropped from our > projects due to reduced funding:-(. With PPC (in the form of plain > unadorned G5) pulsing at the core of supercomputers ("Big Mac" at > Virginia Tech), IBM mainframes, Apple 1U servers, down to high-end > Apple PCs, and soon, probably, laptops, and also a serious contender > for the next generation of gaming consoles (apparently both Sony and > Microsoft are considering it), _and_ now even potentially "extensible" > in such ways, I think that if I had to nominate just one chip > architecture to generate machine code for it would have to be PPC (the > fact that I'm a recent and enthusiastic Mac owner is not really > related, except in stemming partly from the same reason -- I've > revisited PPC architecture in the wake of all the recent hoopla about > G5 and it appears that there _is_ a lot to like about it). Ah well -- > I do realize that, with our limited resources, the near ubiquitousness > of the [expletive deleted] descendants of Intel 80386 makes it most > likely impractical and impolitical to eschew supporting their > bedraggled complexity in favour of PPC's clean and powerful > extensibility:-(. I'm sure a PPC code generator will get done eventually, even if I have to do it myself on my own time :) -bob From mwh at python.net Fri Apr 2 11:00:15 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:00:15 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: Of interest, eventually? (IBM opening ppc h/w design) References: <5.0.2.1.1.20040331131127.00a70100@mail.oz.net> Message-ID: <2mad1uhi00.fsf@starship.python.net> Bob Ippolito writes: > I'm sure a PPC code generator will get done eventually, even if I have > to do it myself on my own time :) You might get some help with that... Cheers, mwh -- Now this is what I don't get. Nobody said absolutely anything bad about anything. Yet it is always possible to just pull random flames out of ones ass. -- http://www.advogato.org/person/vicious/diary.html?start=60 From edreamleo at charter.net Thu Apr 8 15:21:22 2004 From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:21:22 -0500 Subject: [pypy-dev] Proof that pypy is feasible Message-ID: <000e01c41d6c$62dbec30$6700a8c0@computer> Hello all, "Rumors have it that the secret goal is being faster-than-C which is nonsense, isn't it?" My thinking about this has changed since then as the result of reading the following two excellent HP tech reports: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-77.pdf http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-78.pdf These papers should convince any skeptic that PyPy is feasible. The first report is a summary; the second provides more details. I won't discuss them in detail; they are clear enough. Here is the key sentence from the abstract of the first paper: "Contrary to intuition, we demonstrate that it is possible to use a piece of software to improve the performance of a native, statically optimized program binary, _while it is executing_." (emphasis in original). The phrase "contrary to intuition" is apt". One would have thought that interpreting opcodes in software and maintaining a cache (also in software) would be way too expensive. Apparently not. It is this surprise that makes these papers so important. If Dynamo can optimize the binary output of compilers at run time, totally in software with no assist whatever from the compilers or any other part of the OS, then a similar approach certainly can certainly optimize either Python's C interpreter main loop or Python's byte codes directly. Whether the specific approach discussed in these papers would be of value is something for PyPy's designers to decide. The more people are convinced that PyPy is feasible, the more people will be inspired to contribute to it. Edward P.S. I regretted being able to see you all at PyCon this March. I would have been most interested in the PyPy papers. I wonder if the various PyPy authors would mind sending me notes of their presentation? I did pay for the conference; I just was not able to attend. P.P.S. Iirc I found these reports after reading about "code morphing" and doing a bit of googling. I don't think I found about them from here :-) P.P.P.S. In the next several weeks I shall add the so-called @file-thin feature to Leo. This will allow Leo to be used in highly cooperative environments managed by cvs or subversion or whatever. In the short term, this is likely to be the extent of my contribution to the PyPy project. P.P.P.S. Think what might happen if hardware used a similar caching scheme... EKR -------------------------------------------------------------------- Edward K. Ream email: edreamleo at charter.net Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 8 15:34:21 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:34:21 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython Message-ID: <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> Hi PyPy devers, the other day Armin and me talked about the next PyPy sprint. Due to our recent inhuman efforts negotiating with the EU actual coding and planning sprints suffered. Thus we think it's hardly possible to do a separate PyPy sprint before the one at EuroPython. But as a remedy the idea now is to do a 3+7 day coding sprint before EuroPython in Goetheburg/Sweden: 28th of May till 30th of May: Free Python hacking 31st of May till 6th of June: PyPy sprint 7th of June till 9th of June: EuroPython! Be assured that it will be a wild ride that you don't want to miss :-) I guess our main focus will be on translation to low level code to finally get a working C prototype of PyPy. There are however, many diverse areas of interest and we will give a thorough introduction and help to newcomers. The "free hacking three days" mean that everyone is free to work and collaborate on whatever they like. Consider it a warmup for the PyPy sprint :-) So i ask everyone who is interested to register here: http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-sprint and possibly post a small introduction what you are interested in and when you could come. Discussion about the overall planning or alternative ideas is also welcome here on the pypy-dev list. We should have nice rooms and probably pretty cheap accomodation which we will start to organize once we have a rough number of people we can expect. If you register with the sprint mailing list it doesn't imply a commitment to come but it helps with the planning. thanks and hopefully see you! holger P.S.: for your information you may want to skim our research and overall objectives that we just re-represented to the EU: http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/funding/B1.0_objectives From lac at strakt.com Thu Apr 8 15:54:15 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:54:15 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython In-Reply-To: Message from holger krekel of "Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:34:21 +0200." <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> References: <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <200404081354.i38DsFto027172@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:34:21 +0200, holger krekel writes: >Hi PyPy devers, > >the other day Armin and me talked about the next PyPy sprint. Due to >our recent inhuman efforts negotiating with the EU actual coding and >planning sprints suffered. Thus we think it's hardly possible to do a >separate PyPy sprint before the one at EuroPython. > >But as a remedy the idea now is to do a 3+7 day coding sprint >before EuroPython in Goetheburg/Sweden: > > 28th of May till 30th of May: Free Python hacking > 31st of May till 6th of June: PyPy sprint > 7th of June till 9th of June: EuroPython! > >Be assured that it will be a wild ride that you don't want >to miss :-) I guess our main focus will be on translation to >low level code to finally get a working C prototype of PyPy. >There are however, many diverse areas of interest and we will >give a thorough introduction and help to newcomers. I'd sort of prefer the 3 free days to be before EP, and the 7 days to start the 28th. That way I can go nuts about the conference the 3 days before not in the middle of pypy. do you have a reason why you want it this way? > >The "free hacking three days" mean that everyone is free to work >and collaborate on whatever they like. Consider it a warmup >for the PyPy sprint :-) > >So i ask everyone who is interested to register here: > > http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-sprint > >and possibly post a small introduction what you are interested >in and when you could come. Discussion about the overall planning >or alternative ideas is also welcome here on the pypy-dev list. > >We should have nice rooms and probably pretty cheap accomodation >which we will start to organize once we have a rough number of >people we can expect. If you register with the sprint mailing >list it doesn't imply a commitment to come but it helps with >the planning. > >thanks and hopefully see you! > > holger > > >P.S.: for your information you may want to skim our research > and overall objectives that we just re-represented to the EU: > > http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/funding/B1.0_objectives >_______________________________________________ >pypy-dev at codespeak.net >http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 8 16:04:33 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:04:33 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython In-Reply-To: <200404081354.i38DsFto027172@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> <200404081354.i38DsFto027172@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20040408140433.GC11024@solar.trillke> [Laura Creighton Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:54:15PM +0200] > In a message of Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:34:21 +0200, holger krekel writes: > >But as a remedy the idea now is to do a 3+7 day coding sprint > >before EuroPython in Goetheburg/Sweden: > > > > 28th of May till 30th of May: Free Python hacking > > 31st of May till 6th of June: PyPy sprint > > 7th of June till 9th of June: EuroPython! > > > >Be assured that it will be a wild ride that you don't want > >to miss :-) I guess our main focus will be on translation to > >low level code to finally get a working C prototype of PyPy. > >There are however, many diverse areas of interest and we will > >give a thorough introduction and help to newcomers. > > I'd sort of prefer the 3 free days to be before EP, and the 7 days to > start the 28th. That way I can go nuts about the conference the 3 days > before not in the middle of pypy. do you have a reason why you want it > this way? Well, i figured i wouldn't like to force everybody interested in a PyPy sprint into another three day free hacking thing ... actually i wasn't sure who apart from Armin and me are crazy enough and have enough time to do the extra 3 days :-) It's surely open to discussion though. cheers, holger From lac at strakt.com Thu Apr 8 16:12:33 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:12:33 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython In-Reply-To: Message from holger krekel of "Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:04:33 +0200." <20040408140433.GC11024@solar.trillke> References: <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> <200404081354.i38DsFto027172@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20040408140433.GC11024@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:04:33 +0200, holger krekel writes: >[Laura Creighton Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:54:15PM +0200] >> In a message of Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:34:21 +0200, holger krekel writes: >> >But as a remedy the idea now is to do a 3+7 day coding sprint >> >before EuroPython in Goetheburg/Sweden: >> > >> > 28th of May till 30th of May: Free Python hacking >> > 31st of May till 6th of June: PyPy sprint >> > 7th of June till 9th of June: EuroPython! >> > >> >Be assured that it will be a wild ride that you don't want >> >to miss :-) I guess our main focus will be on translation to >> >low level code to finally get a working C prototype of PyPy. >> >There are however, many diverse areas of interest and we will >> >give a thorough introduction and help to newcomers. >> >> I'd sort of prefer the 3 free days to be before EP, and the 7 days to >> start the 28th. That way I can go nuts about the conference the 3 days >> before not in the middle of pypy. do you have a reason why you want it >> this way? > >Well, i figured i wouldn't like to force everybody interested in >a PyPy sprint into another three day free hacking thing ... >actually i wasn't sure who apart from Armin and me are crazy >enough and have enough time to do the extra 3 days :-) >It's surely open to discussion though. > >cheers, > > holger Well, last EP, it was only at EP that I found the people I wanted to hack with, so having 3 free days AFTER ep might be best. Since we have all the sprint rooms booked with plan of before and after sprints, this be easier in some ways as well. Laura From arigo at tunes.org Thu Apr 8 17:31:06 2004 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:31:06 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython In-Reply-To: <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> <200404081354.i38DsFto027172@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20040408140433.GC11024@solar.trillke> <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20040408153106.GA19142@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Hello Laura, On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 04:12:33PM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: > Well, last EP, it was only at EP that I found the people I wanted to hack > with, so having 3 free days AFTER ep might be best. Since we have all > the sprint rooms booked with plan of before and after sprints, this be > easier in some ways as well. This looks like a great idea to me. Hey, and if new people get suddenly enthusiastic about PyPy during the conference they can hack on PyPy for the next three days too :-) Armin From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 8 19:21:48 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 19:21:48 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython In-Reply-To: <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> <200404081354.i38DsFto027172@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20040408140433.GC11024@solar.trillke> <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20040408172148.GD11024@solar.trillke> [Laura Creighton Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 04:12:33PM +0200] > In a message of Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:04:33 +0200, holger krekel writes: > >[Laura Creighton Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 03:54:15PM +0200] > >> In a message of Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:34:21 +0200, holger krekel writes: > >> > > >> >Be assured that it will be a wild ride that you don't want > >> >to miss :-) I guess our main focus will be on translation to > >> >low level code to finally get a working C prototype of PyPy. > >> >There are however, many diverse areas of interest and we will > >> >give a thorough introduction and help to newcomers. > >> > >> I'd sort of prefer the 3 free days to be before EP, and the 7 days to > >> start the 28th. That way I can go nuts about the conference the 3 days > >> before not in the middle of pypy. do you have a reason why you want it > >> this way? > > > >Well, i figured i wouldn't like to force everybody interested in > >a PyPy sprint into another three day free hacking thing ... > >actually i wasn't sure who apart from Armin and me are crazy > >enough and have enough time to do the extra 3 days :-) > >It's surely open to discussion though. > > > >cheers, > > > > holger > > Well, last EP, it was only at EP that I found the people I wanted to hack > with, so having 3 free days AFTER ep might be best. Since we have all > the sprint rooms booked with plan of before and after sprints, this be > easier in some ways as well. ok, so this would mean: 31st of May till 6th of June: PyPy sprint 7th of June till 9th of June: EuroPython! 10th of june till 12th of june: free hacking that sounds good to me. cheers, holger From lac at strakt.com Fri Apr 9 23:19:56 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 23:19:56 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me Message-ID: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> this is part of its amazon review: the book has an excellent, though smaller, section on enhancing personal creativity. To those who seek to be more creative, a series of suggestions on how to implement these suggestions into everyday life is presented, with the note; "Even though personal creativity may not lead to fame and fortune, it can do something that from the individual's point of view is even more important: make day-to-day experiences more vivid, more enjoyable, more rewarding. When we live creatively, boredom is banished and every moment holds the promise of a fresh discovery." The exercise of these elements of personal creativity can be delightful. Some of them are: "Try to surprise at least one person every day." "Try to be surprised by something every day." "When something strikes a spark of interest, follow it." "If you do anything well, it becomes enjoyable." This is _news_?!?! Why do uncreative people live at all? I try to be surprised by hpk and arigo every day. That is harder, and worlds more fun. Laura From edreamleo at charter.net Sat Apr 10 00:05:22 2004 From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:05:22 -0500 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <000701c41e7e$c1f332b0$6700a8c0@computer> > Why do uncreative people live at all? Why ask why? It's their problem :-) BTW, I found the book, Flow, by Mihalyi Czikszentmihalyi, to be interesting and useful. He describes a state we all probably recognize. Google: Mihalyi Czikszentmihalyi Edward -------------------------------------------------------------------- Edward K. Ream email: edreamleo at charter.net Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lac at strakt.com Sat Apr 10 01:31:28 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:31:28 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: Message from "Edward K. Ream" of "Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:05:22 CDT." <000701c41e7e$c1f332b0$6700a8c0@computer> References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <000701c41e7e$c1f332b0$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <200404092331.i39NVSbd032043@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:05:22 CDT, "Edward K. Ream" writes: >> Why do uncreative people live at all? > >Why ask why? It's their problem :-) grin, but, indeed, the reason to ask why is to figure out a way to nail down some safe, valued, apprecuiated space to create in at all. I'm not interested in 'creating in the cracks' -- having the main part of my life go on doing things I despise, and just dreaming of the evenings, the weekends, the vacation time, to get me the part of life I care about and live for. Either the world has some use for me as a creator, or, well, it doesn't. We think that we have got the EU to cough up 1.2 million in order for us to be paid to live out own creative lives, centre stage, as us. This is cool. It also, by the way, was very hard work. Thomas Edison, said it best: Most people miss out on opportunity, because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work. But, dear god, you wrote LEO. And Literate editors are either a thing that frees up everybody in their own creative process, or an incredibly productive cul-de-sac, that has wasted my time for years in ways that generate new cool ideas for me only. I cannot tell. but its a happy-thinking-making-thing, LEO. >BTW, I found the book, Flow, by Mihalyi Czikszentmihalyi, to be interesting >and useful. He describes a state we all probably recognize. Google: Mihalyi >Czikszentmihalyi I didn't mean to slam the book, which I have not read. I want to know how we can foster this state all the time in people who do not have natural inclinations that way --- actually, i cannot believe that they are HUMAN wihtout having natural inclinations that way, just how can we get them to recognise that this is _important_? Slap Slap! Wake up! you get to create now! for me the above is pure joy, why not for others? Laura > >Edward >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >Edward K. Ream email: edreamleo at charter.net >Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines >Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From edreamleo at charter.net Sat Apr 10 01:45:43 2004 From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 18:45:43 -0500 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <000701c41e7e$c1f332b0$6700a8c0@computer> <200404092331.i39NVSbd032043@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <000701c41e8c$c67222c0$6700a8c0@computer> > I want to know how we can foster this state all the time in people who do not > have natural inclinations that way. I have no idea. Most people, I think, would like to be creative. If they don't care, then I doubt there is much anyone can do. I think the essence of creativity is having a juicy problem--something one cares deeply about and something that is neither too hard nor too easy. With a good problem one will overcome any obstacles that happen to arise. In the process of overcoming obstacles creativity happens. BTW, I think it is very important to be reminded from time to time that one is on the correct path. I am thinking about the book, "The Millionaire Next Door", as well as "Flow". Some of the best lessons I have learned in seminars consisted of learning that what I had naturally been doing was in fact a very good thing to do :-) Another example: a recent article in Scientific American called "The Tyranny of Choice" http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=0006AD38-D9FB-1055-973683414B7F0000 Edward -------------------------------------------------------------------- Edward K. Ream email: edreamleo at charter.net Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- From arigo at tunes.org Sat Apr 10 13:04:39 2004 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:04:39 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Proof that pypy is feasible In-Reply-To: <000e01c41d6c$62dbec30$6700a8c0@computer> References: <000e01c41d6c$62dbec30$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <20040410110439.GA11788@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Hello Edward, On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 08:21:22AM -0500, Edward K. Ream wrote: > "Rumors have it that the secret goal is being faster-than-C which is > nonsense, isn't it?" My thinking about this has changed since then as the > result of reading the following two excellent HP tech reports: > > http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-77.pdf > http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-78.pdf The Dynamo project. It is excellent because it shows that you can optimize in software at run-time a program that has been so-called super-optimized by a compiler, thus essentially showing that you can beat decades of efforts in static compilation with a run-time tool. For me it is a proof-of-concept, but I'm even more interested in the next logical step: if the compiler produced a "pseudo-binary" or something with explicit support for this later phase, e.g. pseudo-code with optimization hints instead of machine code, it would probably be even better. This is the direction in which I see this going. I wouldn't like it too much if the hardware directly supported this kind of technique, because it has a lot to gain from more extreme flexibility than hardware can provide. In other words, making a processor even more complex than they already are looks like a bad idea. In my opinions processors should be extremely dumb (no memory management, for example). An interesting middle ground, however, are processors with a built-in software layer over their core, like the Code Morphing one you mentioned which interprets x86 code over a different, simpler core. I like these approaches because I think that ultimately the software interpretation layer will be moved out of the processor and made part of the OS. A bient?t, Armin. From edreamleo at charter.net Sat Apr 10 20:23:07 2004 From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:23:07 -0500 Subject: [pypy-dev] Announcing new designs for Leo Message-ID: <000901c41f28$df41c980$6700a8c0@computer> Laura asked me to make an announcement here of a set of new designs for Leo. These designs are now on Leo's SourceForge site at: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1056336&forum_id=10228 This is a technical design of three major new features to be added to Leo, probably in version 4.2: - @file-thin will allow Leo to be used more easily in a multi-user environment. With @file-thin one could conceivably manage all of Python's or PyPy's code base with a single .leo file, without having to keep the .leo file and the files derived from it "in synch". In particular, project developers would not need to commit .leo files to cvs at all. - @file-thin will support most features of @root. This will allow users to use a single style for all their coding: @root will eventually be deprecated. - @file-thin-wait will defer loading of files until the user selects one of the nodes of the file. These features complete a series of designs that I started more than nine years ago. Any comments or suggestions are most welcome. Edward -------------------------------------------------------------------- Edward K. Ream email: edreamleo at charter.net Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lac at strakt.com Sun Apr 11 01:15:51 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 01:15:51 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] in case we get arrogant Message-ID: <200404102315.i3ANFqme003147@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> from edu-sig simplicity rules. some days you just feel good to be alive, and this is one of them for me. thank you david, all. Laura ------- Forwarded Message On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, Laura Creighton wrote: > what is really cool is that arthur and i, despite widely differing > personaity types and backgrounds, are in common agreement > that > > 'python is beautiful' > > > (for all its warts that we want to tweak) > > this is amazing when you think of it. But Beauty transcends. What makes Python so cool is that its designers (Guido and company) actually care about not making it hard for beginners, even children, to learn and understand it. That level of caring for beginners is very, very rare among language designers or software designers in general. Funny thing, the more they use it the more the experts love Python too... Beauty transcends, simplicity rules. ------- End of Forwarded Message From aleaxit at yahoo.com Tue Apr 13 13:39:44 2004 From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:39:44 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: <000701c41e7e$c1f332b0$6700a8c0@computer> References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <000701c41e7e$c1f332b0$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <200404131339.44944.aleaxit@yahoo.com> On Saturday 10 April 2004 12:05 am, Edward K. Ream wrote: > > Why do uncreative people live at all? > > Why ask why? It's their problem :-) I disagree: we, the uncreative, provide most of the indispensable support and follow-through for most creative people's "sparks". In a well-known quote, Thomas Alva Edison defines genius as 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration (this is widely mis-attributed to Albert Einstein and other well-known quipsters;-). I would roughly agree -- and add that very few of the creative people, those lucky enough to be blessed with that 1% of inspiration, have the stomach and the taste for the long, careful, systematic, painstaking, often-boring and always-tiring work, implied by that 99% of perspiration. Fortunately, ideas are irresistibly infective, even though all patent lawyers, copyright-term extenders, and other purveyors of "intellectual property" drivel, would stem the tide. More often than not, large, indispensable swathes of that 99% of perspiration are provided by US, the uncreative, laboring patiently at crack-filling, t-crossing, i-dotting, and sundry other unglamorous tasks -- without such follow-up, all the creative sparks in the world would leave us all still cowering in damp caves, you know... (admittedly, so would all the patient toil in the world _without_ the occasional spark coming from the creative ones -- my point is that both sorts are needed to make real progress). As a healthy antidote to the hubris that often seems to accompany creativity, I would recommend periodical doses of "Forrest Gump", or, for something completely different, Agnes Jaoui's sublime "Le Gout des Autres", Jasmin Dizdar's superb "Beautiful People", Alain Resnais's classic "Mon Oncle d'Amerique"... each of these artists manages, in different ways, to show how complicated and intertwined is the world of humans, how each instrument in the orchestra happens to play the right notes at the right time so that the full symphony can in the end emerge. Alex From aleaxit at yahoo.com Tue Apr 13 13:46:44 2004 From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:46:44 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython In-Reply-To: <20040408172148.GD11024@solar.trillke> References: <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20040408172148.GD11024@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <200404131346.44538.aleaxit@yahoo.com> On Thursday 08 April 2004 07:21 pm, holger krekel wrote: ... > 31st of May till 6th of June: PyPy sprint > 7th of June till 9th of June: EuroPython! > 10th of june till 12th of june: free hacking > > that sounds good to me. As for me and Anna, we'll be arriving, late-ish, on Sat, May 29, and flying back home, also late-ish, on Fri, June 11. I'm likely to have some AB Strakt work to do in those two weeks, of course (including on June 7-9: I'm likely to be busy, part of the time, manning the Strakt booth at Europython), but I hope I can fit in with some of the sprinting, too. Anna's time there will presumably be less busy than mine, and I'm sure she's looking forward to some sprinting, too. Alex From lac at strakt.com Tue Apr 13 14:47:34 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:47:34 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: Message from Alex Martelli of "Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:39:44 +0200." <200404131339.44944.aleaxit@yahoo.com> References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <000701c41e7e$c1f332b0$6700a8c0@computer> <200404131339.44944.aleaxit@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200404131247.i3DClY8K010409@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:39:44 +0200, Alex Martelli writes: >On Saturday 10 April 2004 12:05 am, Edward K. Ream wrote: >> > Why do uncreative people live at all? >> >> Why ask why? It's their problem :-) > >I disagree: we, the uncreative, provide most of the indispensable support > and >follow-through for most creative people's "sparks". somewhere along the line, we have the interesting phenomenon that Alex Martelli doesn't think of himself as creative ... meanwhile, he goes about life creating a lot. :-) You must think that creativity is something different than what happens to you when you are creating things. How very odd. I would say that all of those support people are creators too. However, the joy of 'helping' might be more of what motivates them than the joy of 'creating'. I am curious as to what happens to those people who are getting satisfaction out of their lives while not being creative, because I understand them so poorly This will make it hard for us to build attractive work environments for them. Whatever it is that they want, we probably do not have. Laura From edreamleo at charter.net Tue Apr 13 16:36:23 2004 From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:36:23 -0500 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me Message-ID: <000801c42164$b2219cd0$6700a8c0@computer> > > Why ask why? It's their problem :-) > > I disagree: we, the uncreative, provide most of the indispensable support > and follow-through for most creative people's "sparks". Interesting reply. I doubt that we are in great disagreement here. My question "why ask why" was meant to convey that we needn't get too concerned about what other people do: there is little we can do about it anyway. Another reason I'm not too concerned about the question is that I think most people are creative in ways that may not be apparent to the casual observer. Perhaps we have slightly different views of the "scale" of creativity. In my view, there is potential for creativity almost everywhere, including in the "long, careful, systematic, painstaking, often-boring and always-tiring work, implied by that 99% of perspiration." In my own work, the "big aha" happened 9 years ago, and it took about 10 minutes of using a prototype (The MORE outliner) to see that a programming style based on outlines would work. That programming style has remained almost unchanged ever since. Was that the end of creativity? I don't think so! There is lots of room for creativity in "dotting the i's". In fact, I think this is where almost all creativity is. It's not particularly glamorous, and it _is_ real creativity. Again, I doubt we are in much disagreement. Alex, surely your life must be highly creative, even if most of it seems like "perspiration" :-) I wasn't trying to dismiss people who aren't creative; I was trying to dismiss worrying about whether people are creative or not. Edward -------------------------------------------------------------------- Edward K. Ream email: edreamleo at charter.net Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aleaxit at yahoo.com Tue Apr 13 18:21:14 2004 From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:21:14 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: <200404131247.i3DClY8K010409@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <200404131339.44944.aleaxit@yahoo.com> <200404131247.i3DClY8K010409@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <200404131821.14268.aleaxit@yahoo.com> On Tuesday 13 April 2004 02:47 pm, Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:39:44 +0200, Alex Martelli writes: > >On Saturday 10 April 2004 12:05 am, Edward K. Ream wrote: > >> > Why do uncreative people live at all? > >> > >> Why ask why? It's their problem :-) > > > >I disagree: we, the uncreative, provide most of the indispensable support > > and > >follow-through for most creative people's "sparks". > > > > somewhere along the line, we have the interesting phenomenon that Alex > Martelli doesn't think of himself as creative ... meanwhile, he goes > about life creating a lot. :-) You must think that creativity is > something different than what happens to you when you are creating > things. How very odd. No, actually, I acknowledge to creativity -- when I write poems, I create; I bring something into being "from nothing". The "background" elements, i.e., the Italian language [or the English one, sometimes I do write English poetry], my feelings and experiences as a human being, etc, I do "take for granted": they're far from "nothing", of course, but, like water to a fish, they can be implied, otherwise no human being could ever "create". But the last time I wrote a poem was almost two years ago -- I was rather depressed at seeing how posting it made me a target of spam from "poetry societies" just burning with desire to shower me with honors... as long, of course, as I paid their entry fees, paid to attend their conferences, and, sure I would want a few dozens beautiful copies of the book with MY poetry in it, at a deeply discounted price, and... Pooh. Last time I had published my stuff, 30 years earlier, I had gotten real recognition and prizes, not these vultures preying on would-be-poets. Ah well, creativity IS its own reward. Anyway, it's because I _know_ how creativity FEELS, due to those very occasional bouts of poetry-related creativity, that I know that just about all of my programming, teaching, technical writing, etc, _isn't_ creativity. It's quite close to the _POST_-creativity part of poetry writing -- carefully weighing the syllables and sounds, trying out alternate words or word orders to get the feeling and the sound just right and matching each other, rebuilding the rhymes you've broken (yep, I'm a dinosaur, I care for rhymes!-), and so on. You have to know a lot of words, and have the right kind of "combinatorial" thinking, to mentally try them all out, and an ear for word sounds, to sift productively through them. But the creativity, the invention, the spark, is just about all in that first draft, sometimes penned with a near-dry bic on a bar napkin, because the imagery, the thought, the poem itself, _erupted_ by its own strength right out of you -- THAT is the 1% that's inspiration. Comes when IT wants to come, out of the blue. You don't DECIDE to create -- when you must, you MUST. The _rest_ is the 99%, the careful and time-consuming work of polishing up, and takes willpower and patience, as well as the right kind of "mechanical" mental skills (which can be trained and enhanced with study and experience -- creativity itself can't, really). Note that the world of poetry is chock full of rough gems that were never polished, often published after the author's death and against his or her stated will -- e.g., 99% of what we have from Emily Dickinson. You can still see the gem's inner light through the rough, but it's obvious why the author didn't want them published, or, not yet. There's even more examples of doggerel that's just as carefully and skilfully polished as you please, but just lacks that inner fire -- all perspiration, without the inspiration; in poetry (and most other arts), that, IMHO, means _dreck_. Fortunately, in _most_ fields of human endeavour, "mechanical" skill, care, knowledge of the way things are done in that field, takes you a long way. I can eat and enjoy my food in many places, even when it doesn't have the genial perfection that so many Gothenburg restaurants amazingly display, even when it's "just" carefully and skillfully prepared without that creativity behind it. Somebody, once, invented those recipes, and just applying them carefully and without gross mistakes can ensure pleasant and palatable nourishment. Somebody once invented "arabic" numerals, double-entry book-keeping, and all the amazing products of creativity that go into ordinary everyday accounting -- but now, you can just apply them all carefully and skilfully and produce useful accounts for any firm. (Indeed, "creative" accountants are probably the kind who helped run Enron, Parmalat, etc; their creativity may have helped their employers, but surely not society at large]. Similarly, thanks to the infectiousness of ideas, clear and readable books of essays can be written, excellently useful programs can be coded, perfectly serviceable furniture can be built, etc, etc, without needing each worker in the field to display the creativity that originally sparked the ideas behind the work. I do not know who invented the concept of table, that of armchair, that of padding a piece of furniture with leather, etc, etc -- without the creativity of those unsung geniuses, our lives would all be poorer. But, all of those ideas (and many more "minor" ones, relating to processes using in building furniture) _have_ done their "spreading like infections" work, fortunately, so we can all benefit -- _with_ a lot of "followup" work on the part of MANY of us "normal" people, of course. We _do_ know (roughly;-) who invented computers, programming, Python, all sorts of nifty algorithms &c used in its library, and so on, and so forth. But that doesn't really change the picture: again, thanks to this wealth of accumulated cultural baggage, it _IS_ quite feasible for the rest of us to _use_ these ideas, just like accountants, ordinary cooks, furniture makers, etc, use the products of past creativity to help us all live better. > I would say that all of those support people > are creators too. Then I have a hard time understanding where creativity stops in your worldview. An accountant carefully and skilfully applying a rich mass of concepts and practices, for most people, would be sort of the "symbol" of non-creative work; indeed, "creative accounting" IS used disparagingly in ordinary language. A judge, say, is most definitely NOT supposed to "create": he's supposed to apply EXISTING laws carefully and skilfully. I consider my professionality, my mindset when I work, to be quite similar to those of other professionals such as judges or accountants. I do understand that more creativity may be needed for many jobs where clear and complete rules are basically unthinkable -- anybody who manages others, for example, is dealing with all the complexity and unpredictability of human beings, day in day out, as is, say, a salesperson. We may have a lot "hard-wired" (in a cultural if not biological sense) about how best to sell wares, or organize people, but such is the complexity of the job [as it deals with humans directly] that improvising must be the order of the day. But I think that judges, accountants, etc, are just as crucial to society as manages, salespeople, etc. > However, the joy of 'helping' might be more of > what motivates them than the joy of 'creating'. I am curious as to > what happens to those people who are getting satisfaction out of their > lives while not being creative, because I understand them so poorly There is an intrinsic pleasure in patiently and carefully applying rules and obtaining a satisfactory result, even if you're not creating anything, but just, say, determining judicially who, of two neighbours squabbling over their dividing wall, must carry which part of the repair costs for it -- the kind of job most judges spend most of their time on. When I was a kid, I played both with Lego bricks (great creativity enablers) _and_ model plane kits, where no creativity was needed, you "just" had to place each piece right according to the instruction, with enough glue but not too much, etc, etc. The kind of pleasure given by each kind of toy was very different: one, intrinsically unending, the other, finite and delimited, basically centered on _not making mistakes_. The first kits I put together were disasters, even though chosen among the easiest ones, but gradually I progressed to harder models and built the planes better. I also liked having the planes to play with; I could have bought them pre=assembled but they would have cost much more. So, one kind of reward for the patient, meticulous toil was that I got more planes to play with later -- just like part of the satisfaction in most jobs is knowing that you're making a living from them;-). > This will make it hard for us to build attractive work environments for > them. Whatever it is that they want, we probably do not have. IMHO, we do. For example (but that's for python-marketing, not here) we could make more, word of mouth, about the peculiar fact that Python programmers make more money that those using other languages on their job (yearly confirmed by SD Magazine's surveys) -- present it as PART of the return from extra productivity, the other part going to those smart enough to EMPLOY Pytonistas, of course, so you don't antagonize either employers or employees. That plays on the part of job satisfaction that is based on the job's rewards. Alex From aleaxit at yahoo.com Tue Apr 13 18:28:08 2004 From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:28:08 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: <000801c42164$b2219cd0$6700a8c0@computer> References: <000801c42164$b2219cd0$6700a8c0@computer> Message-ID: <200404131828.08862.aleaxit@yahoo.com> On Tuesday 13 April 2004 04:36 pm, Edward K. Ream wrote: > > > Why ask why? It's their problem :-) > > > > I disagree: we, the uncreative, provide most of the indispensable support > > and follow-through for most creative people's "sparks". > > Interesting reply. I doubt that we are in great disagreement here. My > question "why ask why" was meant to convey that we needn't get too > concerned about what other people do: there is little we can do about it OK -- but I don't see it as "their _problem_", see. > anyway. Another reason I'm not too concerned about the question is that I > think most people are creative in ways that may not be apparent to the > casual observer. We may indeed be talking at cross-purposes wrt the very definition of "creativity". I have clarified in my last message what I mean by it (and I think that's quite a widespread meaning...) -- inventing new stuff (including new ways of doing things) rather than applying existing ideas, criteria, rules. Would you want a "creative accountant" keeping your books? At least, if you suspected a strict audit was likely to be coming?-) > Perhaps we have slightly different views of the "scale" of creativity. In > my view, there is potential for creativity almost everywhere, including in > the "long, careful, systematic, painstaking, often-boring and always-tiring > work, implied by that 99% of perspiration." > > In my own work, the "big aha" happened 9 years ago, and it took about 10 > minutes of using a prototype (The MORE outliner) to see that a programming > style based on outlines would work. That programming style has remained > almost unchanged ever since. Was that the end of creativity? I don't > think so! There is lots of room for creativity in "dotting the i's". In > fact, I think this is where almost all creativity is. It's not > particularly glamorous, and it _is_ real creativity. Clearly we do disagree about the word itself. I would not WANT a judge to display creativity. When I enter a local restaurant and order tagliatelle al ragu`, I don't want any creativity either -- I want tagliatelle and ragu` sauce made _exactly_ according to the classic local recipe (I can get creativity in my food when I'm in Gothenburg, if my wallet can stand it;-). You may choose to claim that there is creativity in exactly and meticulously applying invariant accounting procedures, laws, or recipes, but I think you'd be stretching the word. > Again, I doubt we are in much disagreement. Alex, surely your life must be > highly creative, even if most of it seems like "perspiration" :-) I wasn't By your definition, which I'm only guessing at, it may be. But then I wonder whose _isn't_;-). > trying to dismiss people who aren't creative; I was trying to dismiss > worrying about whether people are creative or not. OK, if we can't agree about what the word means, then ceasing to apply it does seem advisable!-) Alex From faassen at infrae.com Wed Apr 14 11:26:53 2004 From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:26:53 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: <200404131821.14268.aleaxit@yahoo.com> References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <200404131339.44944.aleaxit@yahoo.com> <200404131247.i3DClY8K010409@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <200404131821.14268.aleaxit@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <407D03DD.7090702@infrae.com> Alex Martelli wrote: > Similarly, thanks to the infectiousness of ideas, clear and readable books of > essays can be written, excellently useful programs can be coded, perfectly > serviceable furniture can be built, etc, etc, without needing each worker in > the field to display the creativity that originally sparked the ideas behind > the work. I do not know who invented the concept of table, that of armchair, > that of padding a piece of furniture with leather, etc, etc -- without the > creativity of those unsung geniuses, our lives would all be poorer. But, all > of those ideas (and many more "minor" ones, relating to processes using in > building furniture) _have_ done their "spreading like infections" work, > fortunately, so we can all benefit -- _with_ a lot of "followup" work on the > part of MANY of us "normal" people, of course. This is all rather too romantic for me. I suspect that instead of some kind of romantic spark of unsung geniuses, in many cases we are looking at the end result of an incremental process. An accumulation of fairly simple ideas on how to improve matters, filtered by what actually worked. Similarly, the amazingly complicated beautiful natural world is, according to biological science, not the result of a creative spark but arose through mutation and natural selection. The result of patient optimization with an occasional reshuffling *can* look like an amazing idea afterwards. > We _do_ know (roughly;-) who invented computers, programming, Python, all > sorts of nifty algorithms &c used in its library, and so on, and so forth. And a clear example of accumulation and optimization can be witnessed there. Python is a perfect example; there wasn't a breakthrough of genius involved with astoundingly new ideas, but a good combination of existing ideas. This *is* creative in my book, and did create something new. Many people were involved in the invention of computers. Witness the phenomenon of an idea being 'ripe' for its time, and multiple people having the same idea at approximately the same time. Apparently the memetic niche just opened up and people (smart people, creative people) could fairly easily move into it. > But that doesn't really change the picture: again, thanks to this wealth of > accumulated cultural baggage, it _IS_ quite feasible for the rest of us to > _use_ these ideas, just like accountants, ordinary cooks, furniture makers, > etc, use the products of past creativity to help us all live better. Instead, accountants, cooks and furniture makers can and do apply optimization. This can lead to results that look like genius creativity on the longer term. A flat surface of rock can over time turn into a wooden table with legs. I've written poetry before. I don't know whether it's any good, of course, which one could use an argument against me here. I've noticed that the core of a poem does require a different style of thinking than the polishing later. But to take that different style of thinking and apply this as a template to all creativity doesn't make much sense to me. To get a potentially new idea, an unusual combination or twisting and turning of existing concepts is required. It requires an experience with these concepts; you've been turning them around in your mind for a long time. In poetry these are feelings and their expressions in language. Because feelings are involved, to introspection it feels impressive when you've reached a combination that reverberates. In other fields feelings are not so directly involved, I suspect creativity can creep up on one more. An accountant who by careful thinking through of laws and circumstances can come up with an original way to legally spare his client some taxes is creative in my book. And like a programmer, such accountant could excitedly try to tell someone else who will just shrug and not consider it creative at all. I do agree with Alex's thesis that fairly uncreative activitiy is a necessary ingredient of human society in many cases. I'm glad we don't all want to be programmers working on a new software system; this way some of us can be the grunt programmers, the taxi drivers and the cooks of this world. Regards, Martijn From lac at strakt.com Thu Apr 15 12:17:43 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:17:43 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: Message from Martijn Faassen of "Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:26:53 +0200." <407D03DD.7090702@infrae.com> References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <200404131339.44944.aleaxit@yahoo.com> <200404131247.i3DClY8K010409@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <200404131821.14268.aleaxit@yahoo.com> <407D03DD.7090702@infrae.com> Message-ID: <200404151017.i3FAHhD8015483@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:26:53 +0200, Martijn Faassen writes: >I do agree with Alex's thesis that fairly uncreative activitiy is a >necessary ingredient of human society in many cases. I'm glad we don't >all want to be programmers working on a new software system; this way >some of us can be the grunt programmers, the taxi drivers and the cooks >of this world. > >Regards, > >Martijn If I am correct in inferring from this that you think of cooking as one of the 'uncreative activities' ..... shame shame shame. I must cook for you some day. :-) Laura From theller at python.net Thu Apr 15 14:49:05 2004 From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:49:05 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] source code Message-ID: I tried to loo at the pypy source code, but neither the viewcvs link http://codespeak.net/viewcvs.cgi/pypy/trunk/src/pypy worked, nor could I check out with svn: c:\>svn --version svn, version 0.24.2 (r6284) compiled Jun 19 2003, 05:44:59 Copyright (C) 2000-2003 CollabNet. Subversion is open source software, see http://subversion.tigris.org/ The following repository access (RA) modules are available: * ra_dav : Module for accessing a repository via WebDAV (DeltaV) protocol. - handles 'http' schema - handles 'https' schema * ra_local : Module for accessing a repository on local disk. - handles 'file' schema * ra_svn : Module for accessing a repository using the svn network protocol. - handles 'svn' schema c:\>svn co http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/trunk/src/pypy A pypy\interpreter svn: RA layer request failed svn: REPORT request failed on '/svn/pypy/trunk/src/pypy' svn: REPORT of '/svn/pypy/trunk/src/pypy': 409 Conflict (http://codespeak.net) c:\> What's the problem? Thanks, Thomas From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 15 15:02:59 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:02:59 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] source code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040415130258.GN22173@solar.trillke> Hi Thomas, [Thomas Heller Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 02:49:05PM +0200] > I tried to loo at the pypy source code, but neither the viewcvs link > http://codespeak.net/viewcvs.cgi/pypy/trunk/src/pypy worked, We had to disabled this service due to bad interaction with search spiders. We hope to re-enable it soon. > nor could I > check out with svn: > > c:\>svn --version > svn, version 0.24.2 (r6284) > compiled Jun 19 2003, 05:44:59 yes, you need a newer version. I recommend >1.0 e.g. 1.0.1 of subversion. You'll find some links here: http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/devel/howtosvn.html cheers, holger From theller at python.net Thu Apr 15 15:28:04 2004 From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:28:04 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: source code References: <20040415130258.GN22173@solar.trillke> Message-ID: holger krekel writes: >> c:\>svn --version >> svn, version 0.24.2 (r6284) >> compiled Jun 19 2003, 05:44:59 > > yes, you need a newer version. I recommend >1.0 e.g. 1.0.1 of > subversion. You'll find some links here: > > http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/devel/howtosvn.html Thanks, Holger. I can check it out now. However, test_all fails early, in two different ways depending on how I start it (it's not a big deal, mainly I wanted to read the code instead of running it, but maybe you wanted to know this): c:\pypy>test_all.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "c:\pypy\test_all.py", line 7, in ? testit.main(tool.autopath.pypydir) File "c:\pypy\tool\testit.py", line 372, in main suite = testsuite_from_dir(root, filterfunc, 1) File "c:\pypy\tool\testit.py", line 245, in testsuite_from_dir from vpath import getlocal, nodotfile ImportError: No module named vpath c:\pypy>\python23\python test_all.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "test_all.py", line 4, in ? from pypy.tool import testit File "c:\pypy\tool\testit.py", line 2, in ? import os, sys, unittest, re, warnings, unittest, traceback, StringIO ImportError: No module named unittest c:\pypy> Thomas From jum at anubis.han.de Thu Apr 15 16:38:34 2004 From: jum at anubis.han.de (Jens-Uwe Mager) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:38:34 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] source code In-Reply-To: <20040415130258.GN22173@solar.trillke> References: <20040415130258.GN22173@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <20040415143834.GL3364@anubis.han.de> On Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 15:02 +0200, holger krekel wrote: > [Thomas Heller Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 02:49:05PM +0200] > > I tried to loo at the pypy source code, but neither the viewcvs link > > http://codespeak.net/viewcvs.cgi/pypy/trunk/src/pypy worked, > > We had to disabled this service due to bad interaction with > search spiders. We hope to re-enable it soon. Actually I was able to re-enable the service even though it is a bit unstable. I used http: urls internally to avoid the repository corruption issue and have now added a small wrapper shell script that automatically restarts the service in case it fails. But the standalone HTTP server that is internal to it is a bit simple and requires a trailing slash for directories: http://codespeak.net/viewcvs/pypy/trunk/src/pypy/ This is different than before where it did run as a CGI script and Apache took care about the trailing slash. -- Jens-Uwe Mager From faassen at infrae.com Thu Apr 15 17:48:39 2004 From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:48:39 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] i just had the book FLOWS reccomeenmded to me In-Reply-To: <200404151017.i3FAHhD8015483@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <200404092119.i39LJu7v031688@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <200404131339.44944.aleaxit@yahoo.com> <200404131247.i3DClY8K010409@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <200404131821.14268.aleaxit@yahoo.com> <407D03DD.7090702@infrae.com> <200404151017.i3FAHhD8015483@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <407EAED7.9090603@infrae.com> Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:26:53 +0200, Martijn Faassen writes: > > >>I do agree with Alex's thesis that fairly uncreative activitiy is a >>necessary ingredient of human society in many cases. I'm glad we don't >>all want to be programmers working on a new software system; this way >>some of us can be the grunt programmers, the taxi drivers and the cooks >>of this world. >> > If I am correct in inferring from this that you think of cooking > as one of the 'uncreative activities' ..... shame shame shame. I > must cook for you some day. :-) No, that's not a correct inference. I think cooking *can* be a creative activity, but I agree with Alex that often it shouldn't be. I think most human activities can be creative, but I usually don't prefer a creative taxi driver taking the scenic route. :) (of course that is not the only creativity a taxi driver can display, and some of this creativity may be useful in getting me to my destination quickly and cheaply) I'm *always* creative when cooking, but that is because I'm unskilled. :) Regards, Martijn From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 15 21:40:17 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:40:17 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: source code In-Reply-To: References: <20040415130258.GN22173@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <20040415194017.GT22173@solar.trillke> [Thomas Heller Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 03:28:04PM +0200] > holger krekel writes: > > >> c:\>svn --version > >> svn, version 0.24.2 (r6284) > >> compiled Jun 19 2003, 05:44:59 > > > > yes, you need a newer version. I recommend >1.0 e.g. 1.0.1 of > > subversion. You'll find some links here: > > > > http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/devel/howtosvn.html > > Thanks, Holger. I can check it out now. I also fixed the source url (like Jens-Uwe suggested) and now the source-repository link works again: http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?source > However, test_all fails early, in two different ways depending on how I > start it (it's not a big deal, mainly I wanted to read the code instead > of running it, but maybe you wanted to know this): the tests are supposed to pass in each revision. > c:\pypy>test_all.py > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "c:\pypy\test_all.py", line 7, in ? > testit.main(tool.autopath.pypydir) > File "c:\pypy\tool\testit.py", line 372, in main > suite = testsuite_from_dir(root, filterfunc, 1) > File "c:\pypy\tool\testit.py", line 245, in testsuite_from_dir > from vpath import getlocal, nodotfile > ImportError: No module named vpath you need to check out http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/trunk/src and not http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/trunk/src/pypy because 'src' contains a number of support packages (a hacked pyrex/Plex for c-translation and 'vpath' as an abstraction to access the file system). cheers, holger From arigo at tunes.org Thu Apr 15 21:38:26 2004 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:38:26 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] PyPy talk(s) at EuroPython Message-ID: <20040415193826.GA14167@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Hello, There are two potential PyPy talks that would be nice to have at EuroPython. The technical one: maybe a 30-minutes talk could quickly survey what we already had some time ago (already talked about e.g. in last year's EuroPython), and then show the new stuff like the control flow analysis, and finally tell what cool things we have done in the sprints just before. There is also a Social skills tracks: """This track is not directly related to Python but definitely addresses a problem common to all communities of software developers, a.k.a. geeks: that of having to communicate with other groups/individuals who are driven by totally different priorities, such as corporate/academic politics, finances, etc. """ We should probably explain how to get EU funding there. A bient?t, Armin. From pedronis at bluewin.ch Tue Apr 20 13:58:24 2004 From: pedronis at bluewin.ch (Samuele Pedroni) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:58:24 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] python/pypy hacking before EuroPython In-Reply-To: <20040408172148.GD11024@solar.trillke> References: <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20040408133421.GB11024@solar.trillke> <200404081354.i38DsFto027172@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20040408140433.GC11024@solar.trillke> <200404081412.i38ECX7k027262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040420135624.02a7fbb0@pop.bluewin.ch> At 19:21 08.04.2004 +0200, holger krekel wrote: >ok, so this would mean: > > 31st of May till 6th of June: PyPy sprint > 7th of June till 9th of June: EuroPython! > 10th of june till 12th of june: free hacking > >that sounds good to me. hi (back from ACCU) has this been fixed now? I would like to proceed to register for the conference and accomodation... Samuele From mwh at python.net Fri Apr 23 12:47:07 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:47:07 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython Message-ID: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> There's a general expectation that there's going to be a talk on PyPy at this year's EuroPython, so I think we should give (at least) one. Provisional idea: title "PyPy: What it is, where it's going and how we're going to pay for it", a 60 minute talk on the language track in three 20 minute sections, possibly with a different speaker for each section. Thoughts? If someone wants to give a more detailed talk on the whole funding thing, that would be cool, but it probably wouldn't be on the lanugage track... Cheers, mwh -- I think perhaps we should have electoral collages and construct our representatives entirely of little bits of cloth and papier mache. -- Owen Dunn, ucam.chat, from his review of the year From faassen at infrae.com Sat Apr 24 22:31:49 2004 From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:31:49 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> Michael Hudson wrote: > There's a general expectation that there's going to be a talk on PyPy > at this year's EuroPython, so I think we should give (at least) one. > > Provisional idea: title "PyPy: What it is, where it's going and how > we're going to pay for it", a 60 minute talk on the language track in > three 20 minute sections, possibly with a different speaker for each > section. > > Thoughts? If someone wants to give a more detailed talk on the whole > funding thing, that would be cool, but it probably wouldn't be on the > lanugage track... Just a note of support: I think that there *definitely* should be a talk about PyPy on the language track! Additionally there could be a chat about funding issues on another track but I think it'd be odd to have a whole sprint about PyPy plus all the developments since last year's EuroPython and then *not* have a talk about it on the Python language track. I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) Regards, Martijn From anna at aleax.it Sat Apr 24 23:13:20 2004 From: anna at aleax.it (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:13:20 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> Message-ID: <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> On Saturday 24 April 2004 22:31, Martijn Faassen wrote: > Additionally there could be a chat about funding issues on another track > but I think it'd be odd to have a whole sprint about PyPy plus all the > developments since last year's EuroPython and then *not* have a talk > about it on the Python language track. > > I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) Um, maybe they were too busy planning the sprint and trying to *get* the funding... ;-) Anna From hpk at trillke.net Sun Apr 25 19:33:24 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:33:24 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> Message-ID: <20040425173324.GS32356@solar.trillke> [Anna Ravenscroft Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:13:20PM +0200] > On Saturday 24 April 2004 22:31, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > > Additionally there could be a chat about funding issues on another track > > but I think it'd be odd to have a whole sprint about PyPy plus all the > > developments since last year's EuroPython and then *not* have a talk > > about it on the Python language track. > > > > I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) > > Um, maybe they were too busy planning the sprint and trying to *get* the > funding... ;-) yes, that's quite right and add pycon plus uk-python + pypy-sprint-talk + some more eu stuff going on + everybody gives some other talks + a lot of stuff going on privately for some people + earning money ... did i forget anything ? :-) holger From faassen at infrae.com Mon Apr 26 10:27:45 2004 From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:27:45 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> Message-ID: <408CC801.4020103@infrae.com> Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > On Saturday 24 April 2004 22:31, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > >>Additionally there could be a chat about funding issues on another track >>but I think it'd be odd to have a whole sprint about PyPy plus all the >>developments since last year's EuroPython and then *not* have a talk >>about it on the Python language track. >> >>I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) > > > Um, maybe they were too busy planning the sprint and trying to *get* the > funding... ;-) Is the whole focus on the funding issue causing people to ignore the technical progress that has already been made *without* the funding? Putting on my Python language hat, I don't care a whit about the funding, I just want to know what PyPy is (if I don't already know), what progress it made since I last heard about it (if I did hear about it before), and where it is going now. I want to hear technical details. Regards, Martijn From sdrees at sdrees.de Mon Apr 26 10:38:36 2004 From: sdrees at sdrees.de (Stefan Drees) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:38:36 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <408CC801.4020103@infrae.com> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> <408CC801.4020103@infrae.com> Message-ID: <20040426083836.GA13510@knoten.biz> On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 10:27:45AM +0200 - a wonderful day - Martijn Faassen wrote: > Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > >On Saturday 24 April 2004 22:31, Martijn Faassen wrote: > >>Additionally there could be a chat about funding issues on another track > >>but I think it'd be odd to have a whole sprint about PyPy plus all the > >>developments since last year's EuroPython and then *not* have a talk > >>about it on the Python language track. > >> > >>I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) > > > >Um, maybe they were too busy planning the sprint and trying to *get* the > >funding... ;-) > > Is the whole focus on the funding issue causing people to ignore the > technical progress that has already been made *without* the funding? > > Putting on my Python language hat, I don't care a whit about the > funding, I just want to know what PyPy is (if I don't already know), > what progress it made since I last heard about it (if I did hear about > it before), and where it is going now. I want to hear technical details. Yes, good point! +1 from me, whatever this means ;) All the best, Stefan. -- .o. e-mail: stefan at drees.name, web: www.sdrees.org, +49 700 SDREESDE ..o fingerprint = 516C C4EF 712A B26F 15C9 C7B7 5651 6964 D508 1B56 ooo stefan drees - consulting and lecturing - problems to tasks From mwh at python.net Mon Apr 26 10:45:45 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:45:45 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> (Armin Rigo's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:14:47 +0100") References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <2my8ojruti.fsf@starship.python.net> Armin Rigo writes: > Hello, > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:13:20PM +0200, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: >> > I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) >> >> Um, maybe they were too busy planning the sprint and trying to *get* the >> funding... ;-) > > We seem to be in a "catch-up-with-real-life" mood after this EU thing... For > the sprint, I am more or less assuming that the dates are as specified on the > Wiki page and people should use the Wiki page to say if they want > accomodation. Registration on the conference should then be done without > asking for accomodation; we'll sort it out globally for everybody interested > in sprinting. Am I correct? I'm not sure. I've registered for the conference and booked accomodation for the maximum time you can on the conference website. > A PyPy track on EuroPython would be needed indeed. If no other comment comes > up I'll officially submit one for Michael's language track. Please do. Details can be filled in/changed outright later on. Cheers, mwh -- I don't remember any dirty green trousers. -- Ian Jackson, ucam.chat From faassen at infrae.com Mon Apr 26 10:31:38 2004 From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:31:38 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <20040425173324.GS32356@solar.trillke> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> <20040425173324.GS32356@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <408CC8EA.8000408@infrae.com> holger krekel wrote: > [Anna Ravenscroft Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:13:20PM +0200] > >>On Saturday 24 April 2004 22:31, Martijn Faassen wrote: >> >> >>>Additionally there could be a chat about funding issues on another track >>>but I think it'd be odd to have a whole sprint about PyPy plus all the >>>developments since last year's EuroPython and then *not* have a talk >>>about it on the Python language track. >>> >>>I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) >> >>Um, maybe they were too busy planning the sprint and trying to *get* the >>funding... ;-) > > > yes, that's quite right and add pycon plus uk-python + pypy-sprint-talk + > some more eu stuff going on + everybody gives some other talks + > a lot of stuff going on privately for some people + earning money > ... did i forget anything ? :-) Sure, too much stuff is going on in my life too. But I'll just stay shocked (shocked I tell you!) until you guys decide to hold a talk about PyPy at EuroPython. Note that the (extended!) talk submission deadline is *today*. So submit some minimalistic description today and then we'll flesh out the details later. Regards, Martijn From pedronis at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 26 13:35:59 2004 From: pedronis at bluewin.ch (Samuele Pedroni) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:35:59 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <2my8ojruti.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040426133249.029c6048@pop.bluewin.ch> At 09:45 26.04.2004 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: >Armin Rigo writes: > > > Hello, > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:13:20PM +0200, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > >> > I'm rather shocked that this hadn't been planned earlier. :) > >> > >> Um, maybe they were too busy planning the sprint and trying to *get* the > >> funding... ;-) > > > > We seem to be in a "catch-up-with-real-life" mood after this EU > thing... For > > the sprint, I am more or less assuming that the dates are as specified > on the > > Wiki page and people should use the Wiki page to say if they want > > accomodation. Registration on the conference should then be done without > > asking for accomodation; we'll sort it out globally for everybody > interested > > in sprinting. Am I correct? > >I'm not sure. I've registered for the conference and booked >accomodation for the maximum time you can on the conference website. looking here http://z3u.com/ep2004/RoomSharingPage it seems that possibility is not there anymore. Anyway starting as early as the sprint was not an official possibility. For sure I will register for the conference before the early-bird finish but I have no accomodation at the momement. From hpk at trillke.net Mon Apr 26 14:33:25 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:33:25 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040426133249.029c6048@pop.bluewin.ch> References: <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20040426133249.029c6048@pop.bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20040426123325.GU32356@solar.trillke> [Samuele Pedroni Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 01:35:59PM +0200] > For sure I will register for the conference before the early-bird finish > but I have no accomodation at the momement. same here. I guess when the first two/four people know their starting date then we should just book the first room for a long time period. Please everbody use and update: http://codespeak.net/moin/pypy/moin.cgi/SprintAttendants I got some feedback from Christian, Alex, Laura, Jacob but they haven't registered at the SprintAttendants page which would be very helpful ... please everybody interested so far sign up there ... Of course, we still need to do a full announcement for the sprint that goes at least to europython, c.l.py and python-dev lists. I'll probably have some more time the next days and can draft up something after talking to some people on IRC or so ... But, most importantly, please note that unlike with all our previous sprints we don't have a local person yet that helps us to determine organization/accomodation details. I guess that Laura and Jacob are and will be pretty busy ... but maybe they can point us to a person that can help with the local organization? (it's just *so* much easier than trying to prepare things from a foreign country) cheers, holger From mwh at python.net Mon Apr 26 15:49:19 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:49:19 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: talk needed at europython References: <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20040426133249.029c6048@pop.bluewin.ch> <20040426123325.GU32356@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <2mllkisvc0.fsf@starship.python.net> holger krekel writes: > But, most importantly, please note that unlike with all our previous > sprints we don't have a local person yet that helps us to determine > organization/accomodation details. I guess that Laura and Jacob are and > will be pretty busy ... but maybe they can point us to a person that can > help with the local organization? (it's just *so* much easier than > trying to prepare things from a foreign country) Laura and Jacob are currently in the states either dealing with or recovering from icky legal matters. I think they'll be back about the 4th of May. Cheers, mwh -- I don't remember any dirty green trousers. -- Ian Jackson, ucam.chat From jacob at strakt.com Mon Apr 26 21:13:30 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:13:30 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <2mllkisvc0.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <20040426123325.GU32356@solar.trillke> <2mllkisvc0.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <200404262113.30651.jacob@strakt.com> On m?ndag 26 april 2004 15.49, Michael Hudson wrote: > holger krekel writes: > > But, most importantly, please note that unlike with all our previous > > sprints we don't have a local person yet that helps us to determine > > organization/accomodation details. I guess that Laura and Jacob are and > > will be pretty busy ... but maybe they can point us to a person that can > > help with the local organization? (it's just *so* much easier than > > trying to prepare things from a foreign country) > > Laura and Jacob are currently in the states either dealing with or > recovering from icky legal matters. I think they'll be back about the > 4th of May. Absolutely right. We will get to work on this when we get home on 4 May. Jacob From arigo at tunes.org Mon Apr 26 22:17:57 2004 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:17:57 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20040426201757.GA8750@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Hi folks, I submitted a (preliminary) abstract for PyPy only three hours after the deadline -- I was on holiday back home in Switzerland, sorry. I think that separating the funding issue would be welcome. I registered for a 60 minutes technical talk, and I suggest that someone says something (at least a lightning talk) about funding separately. (This is motivated by the reactions from Martijn and Stefan, which I totally agree with :-) A bient?t, Armin. From faassen at infrae.com Tue Apr 27 00:06:12 2004 From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:06:12 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <20040426123325.GU32356@solar.trillke> References: <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <408ACEB5.9050007@infrae.com> <200404242313.20273.anna@aleax.it> <20040425091447.GA19410@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20040426133249.029c6048@pop.bluewin.ch> <20040426123325.GU32356@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <408D87D4.40103@infrae.com> holger krekel wrote: > Of course, we still need to do a full announcement for the sprint > that goes at least to europython, c.l.py and python-dev lists. > I'll probably have some more time the next days and can draft up > something after talking to some people on IRC or so ... You need to be in a hurry as people will be booking accomodation and do the registration before the early bird registration deadline, saturday. They'll also be booking flights if they haven't already. I for instance just booked 8 flights for the Infrae people, so my stay in Sweden is set (I arrive sunday before conference, leave friday evening after conference). > But, most importantly, please note that unlike with all our previous > sprints we don't have a local person yet that helps us to determine > organization/accomodation details. I guess that Laura and Jacob are and > will be pretty busy ... but maybe they can point us to a person that can > help with the local organization? (it's just *so* much easier than > trying to prepare things from a foreign country) Actually Dario on the EuroPython list is trying to organize sprint rooms but he doesn't seem to hear from *you* guys. We have a EuroPython mailing list. He's complaining he needs more info. Please go to the list if you have questions about anything to do with the conference. :) Regards, Martijn From faassen at infrae.com Tue Apr 27 00:08:10 2004 From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:08:10 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] talk needed at europython In-Reply-To: <20040426201757.GA8750@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <20040426201757.GA8750@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <408D884A.5080300@infrae.com> Armin Rigo wrote: > I submitted a (preliminary) abstract for PyPy only three hours after the > deadline -- I was on holiday back home in Switzerland, sorry. > > I think that separating the funding issue would be welcome. I registered for > a 60 minutes technical talk, and I suggest that someone says something (at > least a lightning talk) about funding separately. (This is motivated by the > reactions from Martijn and Stefan, which I totally agree with :-) Excellent, thanks! I'll try to make it to the talk (if it doesn't overlap with some other responsibility.) What deadline is this though? It's now midnight CET, but it's still possible to submit talks until next morning, 'unofficially'. :) Regards, Martijn From mwh at python.net Tue Apr 27 10:25:27 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:25:27 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: talk needed at europython References: <2m65brt1hw.fsf@starship.python.net> <20040426201757.GA8750@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <2mekq9su88.fsf@starship.python.net> Armin Rigo writes: > Hi folks, > > I submitted a (preliminary) abstract for PyPy only three hours after the > deadline -- I was on holiday back home in Switzerland, sorry. Good good. It has a moderate chance of being approved :-) > I think that separating the funding issue would be welcome. I > registered for a 60 minutes technical talk, and I suggest that > someone says something (at least a lightning talk) about funding > separately. (This is motivated by the reactions from Martijn and > Stefan, which I totally agree with :-) OK. LTs at least can be organized up the last minute; if someone wants to sneak a 'proper' talk onto another track that's a matter between you and the track chair concerned (hint: not me :-). This might be a little tough though: between the meeting ending last night and this morning, another FIVE AND A HALF HOURS worth of talks were proposed! Cheers, mwh -- Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it. -- spaf (1992) From arigo at tunes.org Tue Apr 27 23:15:50 2004 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:15:50 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Brainstorming at Python UK Message-ID: <20040427211550.GA6262@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Hi, Here is as promized a few words about the "brainstorming" at Python UK about the annotation stuff. The general idea is to leverage what we have already built for translation, including the annotation-propagation framework, but replace the annotations themselves with something more reasonable. In other words if you don't know exactly what annotations are, fine: now we want to drop them. "Annotations" were the mean through which typing information about specific variables were stored. We'd like to replace them with explicit "abstract objects", which would be instances of simple classes like: class SomeObject: "Nothing is known about this value." class SomeInteger: def __init__(self, start=-sys.maxint-1, end=sys.maxint+1): self.start = start self.end = end class SomeList: def __init__(self, anyitem): self.anyitem = anyitem # another SomeXxx instance So the "type inference" phase of the translation would take a control flow graph as input, as it currently does; then its goal is to associate one SomeXxx instance to each variable. This information can then be used by the code generator (Pyrex or Lisp). A new idea inspired by Starkiller, which is an important difference with the old way annotations worked, is that all the SomeXxx instances are always immutables. For example, SomeInteger(0,10) is and will always mean an integer in range(0,10). If later a more general value is found that could arrive into the same variable, then the variable gets associated to a new, more general instance like SomeInteger(-10,10). This change triggers a recomputation of the type inference, and the new SomeInteger(-10,10) will eventually propagate forward to wherever the variable is used. Here is an example: Block(v1,v2,v3): v4 = v1+v2 v5 = v4+v3 jump to Block2 with arg (v5) If the first time Block is entered, v1, v2 and v3 all contained SomeInteger(0,10), then type inference will deduce that v4 contains SomeInteger(0,19) and v5 contains SomeInteger(0,28), and this SomeInteger(0,28) will be sent to Block2 as its input argument, and Block2 will be analysed accordingly. But if later, we find out that Block can also be entered with v1 being SomeInteger(-5,5), then we compute the union of this new value with the previous one: SomeInteger(0,10)|SomeInteger(-5,5) = SomeInteger(-5,10). Then we re-propagate the values into Block, disregarding what we previously found, and get SomeInteger(-5,28) into v5. Then we send this value to Block2, and the same process is repeated there: if this is more general than what we have already seen for Block2, then we generalize and recompute Block2. This process continues until we reach a fixpoint. (Of course in practice I suppose that we won't have things like SomeInteger(0,10), but rather e.g. SomeInteger(0,sys.maxint+1) to mean a non-negative integer. We could just define SomeInteger to have a flag "can I be negative". The purpose of knowing when integers are not negative is typically to simplify list indexing: lst[i] is easier to implement if we know that i>=0.) Having immutable SomeXxx instances even for mutable objects is very useful for the object-oriented part of the analysis. Say that a SomeInstance would represent a Python instance, in the old-style way: a __class__ and some attributes. The SomeInstance is created at the point in the flow graph that creates the instance: v2 = simple_call() This would register somewhere that the class X can be instanciated from this point in the flow graph. It would then create and store into v2 a SomeInstance of class X, which initially has no known attribute. If an attribute is added later on v2, then the SomeInstance detects it is not general enough. It kills the inference process; it records the existence of the new attribute in some data structure on the class X; and it marks all the creation point of instances of X as invalid again. This will restart the type inference from there, and the creation points will now build SomeInstances that can accomodate the extra attribute. The same occurs if we figure out that an existing attribute wasn't general enough, e.g. when we store a possibly negative value into an attribute known to be SomeInteger(0,10). It seems that we will end up cancelling and restarting large parts of the analysis over and over again this way, but it may not be a big problem in practice: we can expect that a lot of information about the attributes will be known already after the __init__ call completed. We may stop and re-analyse __init__ itself 7 times consecutively if it defines 7 attributes on self, each time progressing a bit further until the next new attribute kills us, but that shouldn't be a big problem because it is fairly local (but we'll have to try to analyse bigger programs to really know). This is much cleaner this way than with the annotation stuff. A bient?t, Armin. From hpk at trillke.net Wed Apr 28 11:45:08 2004 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:45:08 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Brainstorming at Python UK In-Reply-To: <20040427211550.GA6262@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <20040427211550.GA6262@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20040428094507.GB32356@solar.trillke> Hi Armin, [Armin Rigo Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 10:15:50PM +0100] > Here is as promized a few words about the "brainstorming" at Python UK about > the annotation stuff. > > "Annotations" were the mean through which typing information about specific > variables were stored. We'd like to replace them with explicit "abstract > objects", which would be instances of simple classes like: Maybe it makes sense to talk about low-level information/representation objects rather than "abstract objects" which isn't a very expressive term IMO. > class SomeObject: > "Nothing is known about this value." > > class SomeInteger: > def __init__(self, start=-sys.maxint-1, end=sys.maxint+1): > self.start = start > self.end = end > > class SomeList: > def __init__(self, anyitem): > self.anyitem = anyitem # another SomeXxx instance > > So the "type inference" phase of the translation would take a control flow > graph as input, as it currently does; then its goal is to associate one > SomeXxx instance to each variable. This information can then be used by the > code generator (Pyrex or Lisp). Makes sense to me ... > A new idea inspired by Starkiller, which is an important difference with the > old way annotations worked, is that all the SomeXxx instances are always > immutables. For example, SomeInteger(0,10) is and will always mean an integer > in range(0,10). If later a more general value is found that could arrive into > the same variable, then the variable gets associated to a new, more general > instance like SomeInteger(-10,10). This change triggers a recomputation of > the type inference, and the new SomeInteger(-10,10) will eventually propagate > forward to wherever the variable is used. Actually we have triggered re-computation in previous schemes, too. Keeping the low level representation objects "virtually immutable" seems like a good simplifying idea ... if it works ... > Here is an example: > > Block(v1,v2,v3): > v4 = v1+v2 > v5 = v4+v3 > jump to Block2 with arg (v5) Ok, i can see this working for variables containing "naturally" immutable objects like integers, strings and numbers. But how does the example apply to building a list in a loop? I am a bit doubtful about a "virtually immutable" SomeList object unless you intend to use a low-level representation like e.g.: class SomeGrowingList: self.r_items = someitem # a SomeXxx instance general enough to # hold all possible items of the list self.r_indexes = SomeInteger(0, sys.maxint-1) Is something like this the underlying idea to allow "virtually immutable" low level representation objects of would-otherwise-be-mutable objects? Note that i guess that marking low level representations with 'r_' or some such might make sense. This is similar to what we do for app-level representation objects with 'w_' to indicate they are 'wrapped' and only an object space knows how to operate on them. > ... > Having immutable SomeXxx instances even for mutable objects is very useful for > the object-oriented part of the analysis. Say that a SomeInstance would > represent a Python instance, in the old-style way: a __class__ and some > attributes. The SomeInstance is created at the point in the flow graph that > creates the instance: > > v2 = simple_call() > > This would register somewhere that the class X can be instanciated from this > point in the flow graph. It would then create and store into v2 a > SomeInstance of class X, which initially has no known attribute. If an > attribute is added later on v2, then the SomeInstance detects it is not > general enough. It kills the inference process; it records the existence of > the new attribute in some data structure on the class X; It should probably store it in the SomeInstance instance associated to class X, right? > ... > It seems that we will end up cancelling and restarting large parts of the > analysis over and over again this way, but it may not be a big problem in > practice: we can expect that a lot of information about the attributes will be > known already after the __init__ call completed. We may stop and re-analyse > __init__ itself 7 times consecutively if it defines 7 attributes on self, each > time progressing a bit further until the next new attribute kills us, but that > shouldn't be a big problem because it is fairly local (but we'll have to try > to analyse bigger programs to really know). This is much cleaner this way > than with the annotation stuff. Yes, i agree that it seems so. But we have had schemes coming and failing so i am eager to get an idea of how it works for the problem cases (lists, instances, ...) we can identify. Also how to represent exceptions at a lower level and then translate them to the target language is not clear yet. cheers, holger From arigo at tunes.org Wed Apr 28 14:11:21 2004 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:11:21 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Brainstorming at Python UK In-Reply-To: <20040428094507.GB32356@solar.trillke> References: <20040427211550.GA6262@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <20040428094507.GB32356@solar.trillke> Message-ID: <20040428121121.GA29424@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Hello Holger, On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 11:45:08AM +0200, holger krekel wrote: > Maybe it makes sense to talk about low-level information/representation > objects rather than "abstract objects" which isn't a very expressive term > IMO. Yes, though they are not really representations yet. "Representation" objects would be more dependent on the code generator. They are really "types" in the theoretical sense: sets of values. We could say "subset objects" and use the s_ prefix for SomeXxx instances. > Ok, i can see this working for variables containing "naturally" > immutable objects like integers, strings and numbers. But how does the > example apply to building a list in a loop? I am a bit doubtful about a > "virtually immutable" SomeList object unless you intend to use a low-level > representation like e.g.: > > class SomeGrowingList: > self.r_items = someitem # a SomeXxx instance general enough to > # hold all possible items of the list > self.r_indexes = SomeInteger(0, sys.maxint-1) There are two different issues here. One is how to make sure that the analysis eventually terminates; a problem would be if a subset object is replaced by a gradually more general one all the time, endlessly. The other is mutability. For an example of the former: SomeInteger(0,1) -> SomeInteger(0,2) -> SomeInteger(0,3) -> SomeInteger(0,4) -> ... To prevent that, we could use more simple subset objects that don't have this problem, e.g. SomeIntegers that can only be either "known-to-be-positive" or not. For lists we can just ignore the index and assume that the list has an unknown length, so that SomeList only has to deal with a 's_item' attribute general enough for all items; if 's_item' cannot be more and more general ad infinitum, then SomeList instances cannot either. If we try to record too much about the length, we could get SomeList(length=0) -> SomeList(length=0 or 1) -> SomeList(length=0 or 1 or 2) -> ... The other issue is that of mutable objects (lists or instances). The idea of recording the creation points and re-analysing from there if necessary applies to lists as well as instances: Block1: v1 = list() This creates a list of "impossible" elements -- i.e. a list whose elements are values in the empty set, which is the less general set. cp = CreationPoint(Block1, r_item=SomeImpossibleValue()) v1 = SomeList(r_item=cp.r_item, creation_point=cp) If later we figure out that the list could contain integers, e.g. because we see an operation like: simple_call(v1.append, v2) # v2 is SomeInteger() Then we stop the analysis, and update the creation point object (which is not immutable, unlike SomeXxx instances) to contain the more general value: v1.creation_point.r_item = union(v1.creation_point.r_item, v2) And we restart the analysis from Block1: cp = find_existing_creation_point() v1 = SomeList(r_item=cp.r_item, creation_point=cp) So the previous SomeList instance is never modified, but just dropped and replaced by a new one. The creation point itself is updated to include information about how general the lists it creates should be. It is much cleaner to do it this way rather than patch the SomeList directly, because the SomeList could already have been used at a lot of places, which would then have to be manually invalidated because the SomeList became more general (this is what we did with annotations). The dependencies are clear: only the CreationPoint object is modified, and it is only read during the creation operation, so only the block containing this operation has to be invalidated. Similarily, for object instances, the SomeInstance is never modified. It contains a reference to an InstanceCreationPoints, which records: * all the blocks where an instance of a specific class is created; * which attributes these instances should be given. Only the InstanceCreationPoints is updated when an attribute must be added or generalized; the already-existing SomeInstances are not altered or actively deleted, but just forgotten. The next generation of SomeInstances for the same InstanceCreationPoints will replace them. To do that, the mutable subset objects SomeList and SomeInstance could have a "generation number": an object for the same creation point but with a more recent generation number is more general (and thus replace during union) an object from an older generation. Using objects from outdated generations could raise an exception that stops further analysis, thus waiting for an object from the latest generation to reach that point and re-trigger the analysis. A bient?t, Armin. From arigo at tunes.org Thu Apr 29 13:59:11 2004 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:59:11 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Slides: how Psyco works Message-ID: <20040429115911.GA15802@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Hello, I have put on-line some slides from the Python UK conference at ACCU 2004, explaining how Psyco works. It is actually a Pygame application... As far as I can tell, it is the first time someone in the room actually understood something at the end :-) http://psyco.sourceforge.net/ I hope it should help to make Psyco a bit less mysterious, and also explain why it is difficult to have a general idea about what kind of speed-up you can expect for specific kinds of code: it is, after all, a pretty low-level "local" process that Psyco does, and it sometimes pays off and sometimes not. It also explains why this process is very much like the usual interpretation that CPython does. If you think about it you might see how useful it would be for Psyco to build on top of an interpreter in a better language than C (i.e. one that can be analysed, not just blindly run). A bient?t, Armin. From tismer at stackless.com Thu Apr 29 17:45:46 2004 From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:45:46 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Slides: how Psyco works In-Reply-To: <20040429115911.GA15802@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <20040429115911.GA15802@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4091232A.5020607@stackless.com> Armin Rigo wrote: > Hello, > > I have put on-line some slides from the Python UK conference at ACCU 2004, > explaining how Psyco works. It is actually a Pygame application... As far as > I can tell, it is the first time someone in the room actually understood > something at the end :-) > > http://psyco.sourceforge.net/ Hey, *this* is a nice animation, with my beloved Lemmings :-) > I hope it should help to make Psyco a bit less mysterious, and also explain > why it is difficult to have a general idea about what kind of speed-up you can > expect for specific kinds of code: it is, after all, a pretty low-level > "local" process that Psyco does, and it sometimes pays off and sometimes not. > It also explains why this process is very much like the usual interpretation > that CPython does. If you think about it you might see how useful it would be > for Psyco to build on top of an interpreter in a better language than C (i.e. > one that can be analysed, not just blindly run). Yes, this is very clear. For PyPy, it will be interesting to see how efficient Psyco's peephole-like optimization is compared to whole-program analysis. There are probably programs simple enough to be completely optimized through by WPA. On the other hand, the possible optimization paths can grow to very many, giving a huge code bloat. In that case, Psyco's approach is probably more efficient, by creating new code only when it is needed. In the end, I guess both strategies should be combined to get some optimum between analysis time, speed and memory consumption. Anyway, I can highly recommend to watch this nice movie from Rigo Productions (C) :-)) ciao - chris -- Christian Tismer :^) Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 mobile +49 173 24 18 776 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ From niemeyer at conectiva.com Thu Apr 29 19:01:43 2004 From: niemeyer at conectiva.com (Gustavo Niemeyer) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:01:43 -0300 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: [Python-Dev] Slides: how Psyco works In-Reply-To: <20040429115911.GA15802@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <20040429115911.GA15802@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20040429170142.GA4820@burma.localdomain> > I have put on-line some slides from the Python UK conference at ACCU > 2004, explaining how Psyco works. It is actually a Pygame > application... As far as I can tell, it is the first time someone in > the room actually understood something at the end :-) Impressive presentation! Congratulations! -- Gustavo Niemeyer http://niemeyer.net