From lac at strakt.com  Sat Nov  1 16:24:37 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 16:24:37 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] From Pycon organizers, a request :-)
Message-ID: <200311011524.hA1FOcGG012956@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

Should I tell them that we are coming?

Laura

------- Forwarded Message

Return-Path: pycon-organizers-bounces at python.org
Delivery-Date: Wed Oct 29 08:17:41 2003
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:07:55 -0800
From: "Brett C." <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
To: sholden at holdenweb.com
Subject: Re: [Pycon-organizers] Call for Papers

Steve Holden wrote:
> The Call for Papers must go out this week, and I will be pre-announcing
> the registration URL at the same time (Trevor: please make sure there's
> an attractive "real soon now" page - maybe webmaven can help with
> graphics id required?). Can all pycon-organizers please make their
> suggestions in the next day or two?
> 
> We should include a list of general topics as well as perhaps some
> specific suggestions for papers that we would like to see included in
> the schedule.
> 

I would love to here someone present on PyPy.  Are how about Numarray 
and how that will be different from Numeric?  This then segues into 
scientific uses of Python.  Educational uses of Python is always nice.

OK, that is all the dribble from my brain at the moment.

- -Brett


_______________________________________________
Pycon-organizers mailing list
Pycon-organizers at mail.python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers

------- End of Forwarded Message


From sabre at nondot.org  Sun Nov  2 17:56:34 2003
From: sabre at nondot.org (Chris Lattner)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:56:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: LLVM and PyPy
In-Reply-To: <20031031204840.GA7164@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0311021051420.25642-100000@nondot.org>

> > We already have the capability of doing function-at-a-time code
> > generation: what is basic-block at a time generation used for?  How do you
> > do global optimizations like register allocation?
>
> It is central to Psyco, the Python just-in-time specializer
> (http://psyco.sourceforge.net) whose techniques we plan to integrate with
> PyPy.  Unlike other environments like Self, which collects execution profiles

Ok, makes sense.

> > That would be great!  We've tossed around the idea of creating C bindings
> > for LLVM, which would make interfacing from other languages easier than

> Well, as the C++ API is nice and clean it is probably simpler to bind it
> directly to Python.  We would probably go for Boost-Python, which makes C++
> objects directly accessible to Python.  But nothing is sure about this; maybe

Ok, I didn't know the boost bindings allowed calling C++ code from python.
In retrospect, that makes a lot of sense.  :)

> driving LLVM from LLVM code is closer to our needs.  Is there a specific
> interface to do that?

Sure, what exactly do you mean by driving LLVM code from LLVM?  The main
interface for executing LLVM code is the ExecutionEngine interface:
http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu/doxygen/classExecutionEngine.html

There are concrete implementations of this interface for the JIT and for
the interpreter.  Note that we will probably need to add some additional
methods to this class to enable all of the functionality that you need
(that's not a problem though :).

> Is it possible to extract from LLVM the required code
> only, and link it with the final executable?  In my experience, there are a
> few limitations of C that require explicit assembly code, like building calls
> dynamically (i.e. the caller's equivalent of varargs).

What do you mean by the "required code only"?  LLVM itself is very
modular, you only have to link the libraries in that you use.  It's also
very easy to slice and dice LLVM code from programs or functions, etc.
For example, the simple 'extract' tool rips a function out of a module
(this is typically useful only when debugging though)...

-Chris

-- 
http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu/
http://www.nondot.org/~sabre/Projects/


From arigo at tunes.org  Tue Nov  4 15:10:53 2003
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:10:53 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: [LLVMdev] Re: LLVM and PyPy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0311021051420.25642-100000@nondot.org>
References: <20031031204840.GA7164@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0311021051420.25642-100000@nondot.org>
Message-ID: <20031104141053.GD24900@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hello Chris,

On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 10:56:34AM -0600, Chris Lattner wrote:
> > driving LLVM from LLVM code is closer to our needs.  Is there a specific
> > interface to do that?
> 
> Sure, what exactly do you mean by driving LLVM code from LLVM?

Writing LLVM code that contains calls to the LLVM framework's compilation
routines.  Sorry if this is a newbie question, but are we supposed to be able
to use all the classes like ExecutionEngine from LLVM code produced by our
tools (as opposed to by the C++ front-end) ? Or would that be a real hack ?

In other words, can we write a JIT in LLVM code ? I understand this is not
what you have in mind for Java, for example, where you'd rather write the JIT
*for* but not *in* LLVM code.  In PyPy we are considering generating different 
versions of the low-level code:

The first is a regular Python interpreter (I), similar to the general design
of interpreters written in C.  It is the direct translation of the Python
source code of PyPy.

Now consider a clever meta-interpreter (M) that interprets (I) with as
argument an input user program (P) in Python.  Note that we include the user
program's runtime arguments in (P).  Using feed-back, (M) could specialize (I)
to some partial information about (P); a typical choice is the user code and
the type of the user variables, but in general it is a more dynamic part of
(P).  Now consider (M) itself and specialize it statically for its first
argument (I) for optimization.  The result is efficient low-level code that
can dynamically instrument and compile any user program (P).  This efficient
low-level code can also be written by hand; it is what I did in Psyco.  Now
that I know exactly how such code must be written it is not difficult to
actually generate it out of the regular Python source code of (I), i.e. PyPy.  
We won't actually write (M).


A bientot,

Armin.


From sabre at nondot.org  Tue Nov  4 17:08:28 2003
From: sabre at nondot.org (Chris Lattner)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:08:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: [LLVMdev] Re: LLVM and PyPy
In-Reply-To: <20031104141053.GD24900@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0311041002150.6200-100000@nondot.org>

> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 10:56:34AM -0600, Chris Lattner wrote:
> > > driving LLVM from LLVM code is closer to our needs.  Is there a specific
> > > interface to do that?
> >
> > Sure, what exactly do you mean by driving LLVM code from LLVM?
>
> Writing LLVM code that contains calls to the LLVM framework's compilation
> routines.

Oh, I see.  :)

> Sorry if this is a newbie question, but are we supposed to be able to
> use all the classes like ExecutionEngine from LLVM code produced by our
> tools (as opposed to by the C++ front-end) ? Or would that be a real
> hack ? In other words, can we write a JIT in LLVM code ?

This is not something that we had considered or planned to do, but there
is no reason it shouldn't work.  LLVM compiled code follows the same ABI
as the G++ compiler, so you can even mix and match translation units or
libraries.

> I understand this is not what you have in mind for Java, for example,
> where you'd rather write the JIT *for* but not *in* LLVM code.

Well, that's sort-of true. You can ask Alkis for more details, but I think
that he's writing the Java->LLVM converter in Java, which will mean that
the converter is going to be compiled to LLVM as well.  He's doing this
work in the context of the Jikes RVM.

> In PyPy we are considering generating different versions of the
> low-level code:

> The first is a regular Python interpreter (I), similar to the general design
> of interpreters written in C.  It is the direct translation of the Python
> source code of PyPy.
>
> Now consider a clever meta-interpreter (M) that interprets (I) with as
> argument an input user program (P) in Python.  Note that we include the
> user program's runtime arguments in (P).  Using feed-back, (M) could
> specialize (I) to some partial information about (P); a typical choice
> is the user code and the type of the user variables, but in general it
> is a more dynamic part of (P).  Now consider (M) itself and specialize
> it statically for its first argument (I) for optimization.  The result
> is efficient low-level code that can dynamically instrument and compile
> any user program (P).  This efficient low-level code can also be written
> by hand; it is what I did in Psyco.  Now that I know exactly how such
> code must be written it is not difficult to actually generate it out of
> the regular Python source code of (I), i.e. PyPy.  We won't actually
> write (M).

This should be doable. :)  I've read up a little bit on Psyco, but I'm
still not sure I understand the advantage of translating a basic block at
a time.  An easier way to tackle the above problem is to use an already
supported language for the bootstrap, but I think the above should work...

-Chris

-- 
http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu/
http://www.nondot.org/~sabre/Projects/


From lac at strakt.com  Thu Nov  6 02:40:54 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 02:40:54 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Question from an old friend of mine ....
Message-ID: <200311060140.hA61esCh028372@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

My friend Geoff Collyer just read the PyPy proposal.

He said this:

------- Forwarded Message

Return-Path: geoff at collyer.net
Delivery-Date: Thu Nov  6 02:26:25 2003
Message-ID: <259f0c7ae0856ce884c9062e0e2c10c3 at collyer.net>
To: lac at strakt.com
Subject: Re: PyPy
From: Geoff Collyer <geoff at collyer.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:26:22 -0800
In-Reply-To: <200311060104.hA614icL028140 at ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on 
	theraft.strakt.com
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01 autolearn=ham 
	version=2.60
X-Spam-Level: 

It appears that compiler theory has advanced quite a bit while I
wasn't looking.  How much of what you propose has already been
implemented at least once?  How much of the rest (unimplemented) is
covered by existing compiler theory?

------- End of Forwarded Message

I don't know the precise answer, so I post it here ....

Laura


From tismer at tismer.com  Mon Nov 10 20:49:57 2003
From: tismer at tismer.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:49:57 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Introducing Richard Emslie
Message-ID: <3FAFEBE5.5010905@tismer.com>

Dear PyPy-bakers,

how do I write a nice introduction? Here a try...

Last time in Charleroix, I met Richard Emslie, right
before my Stackless talk. He was quite interested
and later implemented auto-scheduling for SLP 3.0.

He is working for the Dublin department of a larger
reinsurance company, which makes heavy use of Python.

Last week, I was invited to Dublin as a consultant,
in order to do training for them on how to build
Python, extensions and GUIs under Windows. It was
a very pleasant experience, both the department and
working with Richard.

There is a lot of interest to see PyPy succeed, and
he may be sent to the next PyPy sprint, which I
would appreciate very much. Richard is new to PyPy,
but very interested and learning quickly. He has
tough knowledge of Python and knows C very well,
working under Linux most of the time.

Still I'm not sure how to do a nice introduction,
but that's all, folks. I'll leave the rest to Richard.

cheers - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From arigo at tunes.org  Tue Nov 11 16:19:23 2003
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:19:23 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Annotations
Message-ID: <20031111151923.GA3186@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hello everybody,

Just got an AnnotationHeap class in a shape that starts to look right. See
pypy.translator.annheap.

This is part of implementing doc/translator/annotation.txt.  Anybody
interested in joining the effort is welcome to #pypy :-)


A bientot,

Armin.


From lac at strakt.com  Sun Nov 16 18:40:51 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:40:51 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] from comp.lang.python.announce -- Helix encryption
Message-ID: <200311161740.hAGHepCk024583@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


This might be interesting to use as a pypy performance test, if we
can get the python version acceptably fast. 

------- Forwarded Message

From: "James Makela" <jamesm249 at comcast.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python.announce
Subject: ANN: xhelix encryption/authentication module
    There was recently an article named "Helix: Fast Encryption and
Authentication" by Niels Ferguson and Bruce Schneier, published in the Nov
2003 issue of Dr Dobbs Journal.  In it was a module written in python to
implement this encryption method.  This module works very well, but is too
slow to be used in any practical application.
    xhelix is a python C extension implementing Helix encryption and
authentication.  It is used in the same way as the Helix module descibed in
the article, but runs many, many times faster.

The project resides at:
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/xhelix/

The current version is 1.0 and is released under LGPL



if you have any questions, mailto:
    jamesm249 at users.sourceforge.net


- -- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list

        Support the Python Software Foundation:
        http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html

------- End of Forwarded Message


From arigo at tunes.org  Sun Nov 16 20:09:06 2003
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:09:06 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] from comp.lang.python.announce -- Helix encryption
In-Reply-To: <200311161740.hAGHepCk024583@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200311161740.hAGHepCk024583@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20031116190906.GA18804@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hello Laura,

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 06:40:51PM +0100, Laura Creighton wrote:
> This might be interesting to use as a pypy performance test, if we
> can get the python version acceptably fast.

Could be.  I tried Psyco on it, but it doesn't do better than 2x the plain
Python speed.  This is because this module does unsigned 32-bit arithmetic
using longs.  Well I could enhance Psyco to try and encode longs in a single
unsigned 32-bit machine word if they fit...  The result would certainly be 
quite fast.

But anyway I guess that's not what you had in mind; we could try to
genpyrex-ify the module.  Would probably need some tweaking in the Python 
source, but could be interesting to try indeed.


A bientot,

Armin


From arigo at tunes.org  Tue Nov 18 11:10:37 2003
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:10:37 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Question from an old friend of mine ....
In-Reply-To: <200311060140.hA61esCh028372@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200311060140.hA61esCh028372@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20031118101037.GA2394@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hi Laura,

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 02:40:54AM +0100, Laura Creighton wrote:
> My friend Geoff Collyer just read the PyPy proposal.
> 
> He said this:
> 
> It appears that compiler theory has advanced quite a bit while I
> wasn't looking.  How much of what you propose has already been
> implemented at least once?  How much of the rest (unimplemented) is
> covered by existing compiler theory?

Sorry for not having answered this one earlier.  I don't know much more about
it than what is written in the proposal, and even there, much was Samuele's
contribution.  All I can say is that probably all bits we describe there have
been already implemented here and there, I just don't think they have all been
put together anywhere.

Object spaces are abstract interpretation domains (though I don't know of any 
regular interpreter that can also do abstract interpretation just by changing 
the domain).

Using an Object space for control flow analysis is probably not new but not 
widely used either.

RPython and the static compilation to C is like R-Scheme, though we do it a
bit differently.  As far as I know our annotation-based type system is novel.  
The start of the theory for it is in trunk/doc/translator/annotation.txt :-)

Weaving aspects at translation-time, like adding Stacklessness or
GC-vs-refcount, is the spirit of aspect-oriented programming, but the latter
has gone in different directions nowadays (which I find quite sad,
independently of PyPy).  But Stackless and GC systems themselves have been
around for a long time, it's just the method to get them which is new.  The
same can be said about Psyco (though not the "long time" bit).


A bientot,

Armin.


From arigo at tunes.org  Tue Nov 18 11:10:37 2003
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:10:37 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Question from an old friend of mine ....
In-Reply-To: <200311060140.hA61esCh028372@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200311060140.hA61esCh028372@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20031118101037.GA2394@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hi Laura,

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 02:40:54AM +0100, Laura Creighton wrote:
> My friend Geoff Collyer just read the PyPy proposal.
> 
> He said this:
> 
> It appears that compiler theory has advanced quite a bit while I
> wasn't looking.  How much of what you propose has already been
> implemented at least once?  How much of the rest (unimplemented) is
> covered by existing compiler theory?

Sorry for not having answered this one earlier.  I don't know much more about
it than what is written in the proposal, and even there, much was Samuele's
contribution.  All I can say is that probably all bits we describe there have
been already implemented here and there, I just don't think they have all been
put together anywhere.

Object spaces are abstract interpretation domains (though I don't know of any 
regular interpreter that can also do abstract interpretation just by changing 
the domain).

Using an Object space for control flow analysis is probably not new but not 
widely used either.

RPython and the static compilation to C is like R-Scheme, though we do it a
bit differently.  As far as I know our annotation-based type system is novel.  
The start of the theory for it is in trunk/doc/translator/annotation.txt :-)

Weaving aspects at translation-time, like adding Stacklessness or
GC-vs-refcount, is the spirit of aspect-oriented programming, but the latter
has gone in different directions nowadays (which I find quite sad,
independently of PyPy).  But Stackless and GC systems themselves have been
around for a long time, it's just the method to get them which is new.  The
same can be said about Psyco (though not the "long time" bit).


A bientot,

Armin.


From hpk at trillke.net  Tue Nov 18 12:41:33 2003
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:41:33 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Question from an old friend of mine ....
In-Reply-To: <20031118101037.GA2394@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>;
	from arigo@tunes.org on Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:10:37AM +0000
References: <200311060140.hA61esCh028372@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<20031118101037.GA2394@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20031118124133.N3900@prim.han.de>

Hi Armin,

[Armin Rigo Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 10:10:37AM +0000]
> On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 02:40:54AM +0100, Laura Creighton wrote:
> > My friend Geoff Collyer just read the PyPy proposal.
> > 
> > He said this:
> > 
> > It appears that compiler theory has advanced quite a bit while I
> > wasn't looking.  How much of what you propose has already been
> > implemented at least once?  How much of the rest (unimplemented) is
> > covered by existing compiler theory?
> 
> Sorry for not having answered this one earlier.  I don't know much more about
> it than what is written in the proposal, and even there, much was Samuele's
> contribution.  All I can say is that probably all bits we describe there have
> been already implemented here and there, I just don't think they have all been
> put together anywhere.
> 
> Object spaces are abstract interpretation domains (though I don't know of any 
> regular interpreter that can also do abstract interpretation just by changing 
> the domain).
> 
> Using an Object space for control flow analysis is probably not new but not 
> widely used either.

Are you sure that something like the concept of Object Spaces 
(or an Operation library) has been tried before?  Our current 
separation of an

  interpreter   which dispatches and implements bytecodes 
                by performing a series of operations via
                an Object Space on otherwise opaque app-objects. 

and an 

  Object Space  which manipulates app-visible objects and provides
                (in case of StdObjspace) the standard python type system 
                or (in case of FlowObjSpace) uses the calls to record
                and transform the running program into a graph-representation 
                which is then further processed by the

  Annotator and Translator 
                which perform type inference on the graph and eventually
                generate either pyrex or lisp-sourcecode. 

This separation doesn't seem like anything i read about before (e.g. Squeak
and other links provided by Samuele).  Of course i am not so much
saying that to you only as you know all this but i think it makes sense
to recap our architecture for newcomers ...

> RPython and the static compilation to C is like R-Scheme, though we do it a
> bit differently.  As far as I know our annotation-based type system is novel.  
> The start of the theory for it is in trunk/doc/translator/annotation.txt :-)
> 
> Weaving aspects at translation-time, like adding Stacklessness or
> GC-vs-refcount, is the spirit of aspect-oriented programming, but the latter
> has gone in different directions nowadays (which I find quite sad,
> independently of PyPy).  But Stackless and GC systems themselves have been
> around for a long time, it's just the method to get them which is new.  The
> same can be said about Psyco (though not the "long time" bit).

Of course, this is true, either way. 

cheers,

    holger

From lac at strakt.com  Wed Nov 19 22:12:24 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:12:24 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] 
 from private mail out of discussion on building a community pythion website
Message-ID: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

from discussion on marketing python, re: some place where we could all
contribute more, a place where we could all contribute python hints and
help and whatever, plus links to our blogs, and something written for
suits, and we get to use Tim Parkin's logo which python.org rejected...

------- Forwarded Message

Replied: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien)
Replied: Laura Creighton <lac at strakt.com>
Replied: Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingide.com>
Replied: Tim Parkin <tim at pollenation.net>
Return-Path: pobrien at orbtech.com
Delivery-Date: Wed Nov 19 17:51:46 2003

Laura Creighton <lac at strakt.com> writes:

> What I wanted was a set of basic templates, that establish a look.
> and then the abilty to edit what I want to say _in emacs_ using some
> sort of basic markup -- like ReST.  And then, all you really have to
> do is type.

I agree completely with this sentiment.  Here is what would be my
ideal system:

* text files written using reST conventions

* text files stored in cvs or svn

* style sheet to work with reST that ends up looking like Tim's design

* the result is static html pages that are search engine friendly


Here is how people would contribute website content:

* read tutorial about reST and updating content

* ask for privileges at the cvs or svn repository

* check out the files from cvs or svn

* make changes in preferred text editor, or

* check out the templates and create a new document

* run unit tests which make sure the html gets created properly

* make sure the html results look good with the style sheets

* check the changes into the cvs or svn repository

* cvs or svn changes get emailed to anyone who wants to monitor them

* someone can reverse the changes, just like code in cvs or svn

* the website gets rebuilt from the cvs or svn reposity each day


If the content is in reST, we can also produce XML, PDFs, latex,
OpenOffice, etc.

Thoughts?

- -- 
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
- -----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
- -----------------------------------------------

------- End of Forwarded Message

My thought is that we have this already in PyPy.  correct?

things are moving right along.

later we get this:

>Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingide.com> writes:
>
>> FWIW, I have been working on redesigning how wingide.com and
>> pythonology.org work and it's reST-based.  If this comes to action,
>> let me know and maybe some of my code will be useful (I plan to open
>> source the framework... yea yea, yet another web framework, but it's
>> unique in being reST-centric).
>
>Whether I apply it to a Python-specific website or not, I do plan to
>use something like this for several other websites I'm developing
>right now.  So I am *extremely* interested in your framework.  Please
>tell me more.  I'll help in any way I can.  I'm on the reST developer
>team, have contributed a few additions to reST, and worked on the
>OpenOffice converter that Robin Dunn and Noel Rappin and I are using
>on the wxPython book for Manning.  So I'm knee deep in this stuff
>already.  ;-)
>
>--
>Patrick K. O'Brien
>Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien

-----------

sounds to me as if this is something we want -- and we need to get
Patrick to a Sprint ....

now thigns are moving towards getting another sourceforge project.
Patrick has several.  but I think that we have lots of code to drop in.

wanted to keep you all posted ....

Laura


From pobrien at orbtech.com  Thu Nov 20 00:41:25 2003
From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien)
Date: 19 Nov 2003 17:41:25 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website
In-Reply-To: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>

Project Information
-------------------

1. Submitter: pobrien

2. Project UNIX Name: restify

3. Project Descriptive Name: Restify

4. License: BSD License

5. Project Description: Restify is a lightweight content management
   system that uses reStructuredText documents to generate static web
   pages for an entire website.  It is written in Python, and does not
   require any software on the server.

-----

I wasn't sure what license we'd want, so I picked BSD as a liberal
option.  I'll gladly let someone else hash out which license we want
as our final choice.

I described the kind of tool that *I* want.  If that isn't what
everyone else wants, or what Stephen and Tim's code supports, just let
me know.  I just hope I'm not too far off in my description.

I'll let everyone know when the project is approved by SF.  In the
mean time, anyone who wants developer access should send me their
SourceForge user names.  And feel free to forward this to anyone else
who might have an interest.

-- 
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------


From sdeibel at wingide.com  Thu Nov 20 00:57:46 2003
From: sdeibel at wingide.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:57:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website
In-Reply-To: <m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
 <m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0311191852450.8339-100000@hedgehog>

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
> Project Information
> -------------------
> 
> 1. Submitter: pobrien
> 
> 2. Project UNIX Name: restify
> 
> 3. Project Descriptive Name: Restify
> 
> 4. License: BSD License

Sounds good.  I strongly prefer less restrictive licenses like this to 
GPL, which would be a problem for me in this case.

> 5. Project Description: Restify is a lightweight content management
>    system that uses reStructuredText documents to generate static web
>    pages for an entire website.  It is written in Python, and does not
>    require any software on the server.

My current code base caches but still has Python code running to access
the cache.  This should be changed to allow static directly servable files
as an option, but in fact I would like to retain a layered approach where
there can be a mix of dynamic and static content (even down to different
elements on the same browser page).

> I described the kind of tool that *I* want.  If that isn't what
> everyone else wants, or what Stephen and Tim's code supports, just let
> me know.  I just hope I'm not too far off in my description.

It's fine as a start, anyway, as I'm sure we'll evolve what we want
this thing to be and after we figure out how/if to merge the various
initial code bases.

> I'll let everyone know when the project is approved by SF.  In the
> mean time, anyone who wants developer access should send me their
> SourceForge user names.

Please add sdeibel when it's approved.

Thanks!

Stephan Deibel

--
Wing IDE for Python
Archaeopteryx Software, Inc
Take Flight!

www.wingide.com

From lac at strakt.com  Thu Nov 20 04:22:06 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:22:06 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website 
In-Reply-To: Message from pobrien@orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) 
   of "19 Nov 2003 17:41:25 CST." <m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com> 
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com> 
Message-ID: <200311200322.hAK3M6Nl003037@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


Sourceforge won't let you develop using subversion until subversion is 1.0,
which is isn't, quite, yet.  But once you have used subversion, the thought
of using cvs is ... painful ...

Plus, for the design I had in order, you really want to use subversion
as part of your versioning system from inside the website.  There is
already a wiki based on subversion -- subwiki -- http://subwiki.tigris.org/
and kwiki and blosxom both support svn.  These places might have code
we want to look at and see ...

Here is part of mail where Tim and I were discussing exactly what we
might want in a new website ....

>Laura, as for your concerns about community. The model we'd probably
>propose is a registration system (to stop bots from posting stuff) and a
>'broadcast delay' moderation system.

I am not sure about the 'to stop bots from posting stuff' rule.
Moshez Zadka has a really nice bot for logging irc conversations.
I could see a case where somebody _wanted_ a bot to be able to post
regular updates here.  How much abuse do you get if you disallow this?

Also, I really really hate the 'having to log in' rule.  I have way,
way, way too many sites, and I need to access them from all over the
world.  So, naturally, I use the same password everywhere.  A few
months ago, somebody who realised this, forged a bunch of articles
flaming Microsoft claiming to be from me. Quite funny, actually.

But whenever I see password protection, I think 'aha -- somebody has
a clubhouse.  And only members of _my gang_ can use the clubhouse.
You need the magic password, to prove that you are in _my gang_ ...'
Can't we do something else?

>ie New posters content would be seen by other registered users but not
>by unregistered users. This could be combined in many ways to make very
>new people have to be fully moderated. People who have had one thing
>accepted only have a delay on publishing and more people can see the
>changes and finally trusted people can be published immediatly.
>
>Just wondering what you would think to that?

On first glance, I like my version -- there is are 2 versions of the
site, the official version, which is what everybody sees, and then the
'being hacked on' version, which you can see if you use a slightly
different url -- which is the one that you get when you edit, or try
to edit.  Same structure underneath -- just if one were
www.python.biz/frontpage the other would be
www.python.bix/newchanges/frontpage

and so on and so forth for every file on the website.  Then, every
3 days or so, unless somebody/the readership/however we choose
to devolve authority/ votes it down, the changed versions become
the real versions.  We would need a way for the changer to specify
-- NOT DONE YET, don't make this live in 3 days!
and
-- READY TO GO according to me

Care has to be taken so that two people can edit the same pages
concurrently -- and that different levels of fixes can go on at
the same time.

Thus if I decide to replace all instances of 'PBF' with
'The Python Business Forum' on the website, then I should get to get
my modifications in and out on the world globally, even if
somebody was revising a document that referred to the PBF, and
had the page out for editing.  We want neither the 'last out
overwrite behaviour' -- then my PBF global change would get
rewritten by the revised document, which for argument sake would
still refer to things as the PBF -- nor do we want the reviser to
get to lock the file, thus making it impossible for me to make
a global PBF change at all because always there will be a file
locked and being edited.

You need real file versioning a la svn for this to work properly.

....

the other thing that I want, for a community website, is a way
of doing the workflow which is more like raising exceptions, and
less like testing your system calls to make sure they return the
correct status.  That is to say, what I want is a way that everybody
can make all sort of changes, with the understanding that if we hate
what they did, we can always yell about it and go back to the old
version, as opposed to people needed the permission of a few overworked
webadmins to get anything done.  But if we want to do that, we need
very precise control over how we can back out of things, and for
that we need a real version control system, and for that I want
subversion.

Laura



From dinu at mac.com  Thu Nov 20 09:25:46 2003
From: dinu at mac.com (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:25:46 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev]  from private mail out of discussion on building a
	community pythion website
In-Reply-To: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <2384B01E-1B33-11D8-AAA2-00039345C610@mac.com>

Laura Creighton:

> from discussion on marketing python, re: some place where we could all
> contribute more, a place where we could all contribute python hints and
> help and whatever, plus links to our blogs, and something written for
> suits, and we get to use Tim Parkin's logo which python.org rejected...

Hi Laura and others,

it's not entirely clear to me why this message pops up on this
particular PyPy-list, but read on...

Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:

> Laura Creighton <lac at strakt.com> writes:
>
>> What I wanted was a set of basic templates, that establish a look.
>> and then the abilty to edit what I want to say _in emacs_ using some
>> sort of basic markup -- like ReST.  And then, all you really have to
>> do is type.
>
> I agree completely with this sentiment.  Here is what would be my
> ideal system:
>
> * text files written using reST conventions
> * text files stored in cvs or svn
> * style sheet to work with reST that ends up looking like Tim's design
> * the result is static html pages that are search engine friendly
>
> Here is how people would contribute website content:
>
> * read tutorial about reST and updating content
> * ask for privileges at the cvs or svn repository
> * check out the files from cvs or svn
> * make changes in preferred text editor, or
> * check out the templates and create a new document
> * run unit tests which make sure the html gets created properly
> * make sure the html results look good with the style sheets
> * check the changes into the cvs or svn repository
> * cvs or svn changes get emailed to anyone who wants to monitor them
> * someone can reverse the changes, just like code in cvs or svn
> * the website gets rebuilt from the cvs or svn reposity each day
>
> If the content is in reST, we can also produce XML, PDFs, latex,
> OpenOffice, etc.
>
> Thoughts?

This is largely exactly what I'm doing for my own Starship pages,
except for using CVS, see also: http://python.net/~gherman
They are created from a homebrewn Wiki system, named HeyHeyWickie,
which pipes ReST files through Docutils and EmPy to get dynamic
pages locally, but I can also create static HTML snapshots which
I'm transferring to the Starship. Right now I'm working on a PDF
"take-away" version of such a snapshot.

The main feature is that you can have arbitrary Python code on
every page (which makes it dangerous, of course, to put it online,
but it allows me to generate a whole lot of things very lazily,
i.e. at the time when a page gets called, like miniature screen-
shots, say), see some samples below:

   http://python.net/~gherman/HeyHeyWickie.html
   http://python.net/~gherman/UnreleasedStuff.html

The version of HeyHeyWickie you can download right now is quite
alpha and was quickly written for Linux Magazine. They kindly put
it online as a PDF, see:

   http://python.net/~gherman/Publications.html

But I hope by the end of the year a new version will be out. BTW,
here's a preview of a PDF snapshot, not entirely up to date and
with some hyperlink bugs:

   http://python.net/~gherman/index.pdf

Regards,

Dinu

PS: Here's the code for the file UnreleasedStuff.txt:

------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------

These are some screenshots of things to come, things which are not 
finished
yet or which I'm too busy to release... Some were converted from PDF 
files,
which are available for `download <unreleased>`__, too.

@{
import os, wickie, utils
projectHome = "/Users/dinu/Developer/Starship/unreleased"
imgFolder = wickie.getImageFolder(BASE)
shots = utils.makeScreenshotIcons(projectHome, imgFolder)
if imgFolder[0] == '/':
     shots = map(lambda (base,small): ("file://"+base, "file://"+small), 
shots)
}

.. raw:: html

   <table>
   <tr>
   @[for i in range(len(shots))]
   <td>
   <a href="@shots[i][0]"><img src="@shots[i][1]" alt="@shots[i][1]" 
/></a>
   </td>
   @[if i % 5 == 4]
   </tr></tr>
   @[end if]
   @[end for]
   </tr>
   </table>

------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------ 8< ------

--
Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman
......................................................................
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it." (Alan Kay)


From pobrien at orbtech.com  Thu Nov 20 15:18:43 2003
From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien)
Date: 20 Nov 2003 08:18:43 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website
In-Reply-To: <200311200322.hAK3M6Nl003037@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
	<200311200322.hAK3M6Nl003037@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <m21xs3rum4.fsf@orbtech.com>

Laura Creighton <lac at strakt.com> writes:

> Sourceforge won't let you develop using subversion until subversion
> is 1.0, which is isn't, quite, yet.  But once you have used
> subversion, the thought of using cvs is ... painful ...

So I've heard.

> Plus, for the design I had in order, you really want to use
> subversion as part of your versioning system from inside the
> website.

Could Holger Krekel set us up with an svn repository on Codespeak?  He
once offered to host my PyPerSyst project there.  Holger is on the
pypy-dev list, isn't he?  Er, aren't you, Holger?  ;-)

If so, could we also get a mailing list going?  I kind of like the
name I picked, which was "restify", but if someone can think of a
better name they should speak up.

If someone can get us an svn repository, I'll cancel the SourceForge
project, which was just approved:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/restify/

-- 
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------


From hpk at trillke.net  Thu Nov 20 15:44:53 2003
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:44:53 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website
In-Reply-To: <m21xs3rum4.fsf@orbtech.com>;
	from pobrien@orbtech.com on Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 08:18:43AM -0600
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
	<200311200322.hAK3M6Nl003037@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m21xs3rum4.fsf@orbtech.com>
Message-ID: <20031120154453.O15957@prim.han.de>

[Patrick K. O'Brien Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 08:18:43AM -0600]
> Laura Creighton <lac at strakt.com> writes:
> > Sourceforge won't let you develop using subversion until subversion
> > is 1.0, which is isn't, quite, yet.  But once you have used
> > subversion, the thought of using cvs is ... painful ...
> 
> So I've heard.
> 
> > Plus, for the design I had in order, you really want to use
> > subversion as part of your versioning system from inside the
> > website.
> 
> Could Holger Krekel set us up with an svn repository on Codespeak?  He
> once offered to host my PyPerSyst project there.  Holger is on the
> pypy-dev list, isn't he?  Er, aren't you, Holger?  ;-)

Hey Patrick.  Actually i am but i have been too busy to answer :-)

Yes, i would be happy to setup you and your project members.  But let me not
forget to mention the codespeak-repository policy:  All projects use the
same repository and everyone with commit rights has - by default - full
commit rights.  In the unlikely case that somebody goes wild and does
unwanted changes it's a) easy to reverse and b) easy to take action *then*.  
IOW the ACIDness of subversion allows to view the repo as a kind of
a version-controled "code wiki".  

> If so, could we also get a mailing list going?  I kind of like the
> name I picked, which was "restify", but if someone can think of a
> better name they should speak up.

Actually this is all possible and i may be interested to join as 
i have already done some coding along your lines see e.g. the pypy-doc page 

http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/translation/annotation.html

which is generated from a ReST-Source (see link on the same page). 
IMHO the engine should be dynamic but could be driven to statically
enumerate and generate all pages from rest-sources.  There are actually
two very interesting ways in the future to edit such ReST-content: 

a) reuse the ExternalEditor-concept from Zope to dispatch native
   applications (via e.g. the ReST-link) which can also *save* back
   to the repo/web. 

b) reuse the Epoz-project which is a client-side WYSIWYG-editor 
   for recent browsers (mozilla and IE  mainly).  Epoz is also
   going to move to the codespeak-repo, btw. 

But if possible i'd like to talk more/do something about this next 
week.  I guess i am just too busy right now. 

cheers,

    holger

From pobrien at orbtech.com  Thu Nov 20 16:34:13 2003
From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien)
Date: 20 Nov 2003 09:34:13 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev]  from private mail out of discussion on building a
	community pythion website
In-Reply-To: <2384B01E-1B33-11D8-AAA2-00039345C610@mac.com>
References: <2384B01E-1B33-11D8-AAA2-00039345C610@mac.com>
Message-ID: <m2ekw3jbpm.fsf@orbtech.com>

Dinu Gherman <dinu at mac.com> writes:

> Laura Creighton:
> 
> > from discussion on marketing python, re: some place where we could
> > all contribute more, a place where we could all contribute python
> > hints and help and whatever, plus links to our blogs, and
> > something written for suits, and we get to use Tim Parkin's logo
> > which python.org rejected...
> 
> Hi Laura and others,
> 
> it's not entirely clear to me why this message pops up on this
> particular PyPy-list, but read on...

It's a long story.  In short, several of us rebels were talking about
setting up a website with Python content (using Tim's website design
and logo, which we happen to like a lot).  That lead to discussions
about maintaining content in reST using cvs or svn.  Stephen Deibel
and Tim Parkin have code for doing such a thing that they want to open
source.  So we decided to start a project.  Laura thought the PyPy
folks also had similar needs, and similar code.  Hence the post here.

We'd love to have you involved as well.  We've got a SourceForge
project set up, but since SF doesn't support Subversion, we may take
up Holger's offer to host it, when he has time to do so.

Here is a very brief project description:

"Restify is a lightweight content management system that uses
reStructuredText documents to generate static (or dynamic) web pages
for an entire website.  It is written in Python, and does not require
any software on the server (except for dynamic content).  Source
documents are stored in Subversion."

At least, that's all *I* need to be a happy camper.[1]  Others have
cool ideas they would like to have.  I imagine that if this project
satisfies Laura, it should satisfy just about anyone.  <big wink>

[1] With a name of Restify, I would suggest that the developers call
    themselves Restifarians.[2]  :-)

[2] http://www.google.com/search?q=rastafarian

-- 
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------


From tim at pollenation.net  Thu Nov 20 22:47:48 2003
From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:47:48 +0000
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythionwebsite
In-Reply-To: <m21xs3rum4.fsf@orbtech.com>
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
	<200311200322.hAK3M6Nl003037@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m21xs3rum4.fsf@orbtech.com>
Message-ID: <3FBD3684.9060806@pollenation.net>

Hi,

I quite like

pyrite

or

pyurest

headrest keeps appearing at the back of my mind too....

Restify sounds like a sort of wysywig front end to rest (which we have 
been thinking of doing also), as it's in use at the moment as a verb 
(google shows a few results).

At the end of the day I don't mind as long as it's descriptive. What is 
it it's going to do anyway (whats it's 'USP' for want of a better acronym)

Tim



Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:

>Laura Creighton <lac at strakt.com> writes:
>
>  
>
>>Sourceforge won't let you develop using subversion until subversion
>>is 1.0, which is isn't, quite, yet.  But once you have used
>>subversion, the thought of using cvs is ... painful ...
>>    
>>
>
>So I've heard.
>
>  
>
>>Plus, for the design I had in order, you really want to use
>>subversion as part of your versioning system from inside the
>>website.
>>    
>>
>
>Could Holger Krekel set us up with an svn repository on Codespeak?  He
>once offered to host my PyPerSyst project there.  Holger is on the
>pypy-dev list, isn't he?  Er, aren't you, Holger?  ;-)
>
>If so, could we also get a mailing list going?  I kind of like the
>name I picked, which was "restify", but if someone can think of a
>better name they should speak up.
>
>If someone can get us an svn repository, I'll cancel the SourceForge
>project, which was just approved:
>
>http://sourceforge.net/projects/restify/
>
>  
>


-- 
Tim Parkin
Managing Director
Pollenation Internet Ltd
www.pollenation.net
m : 07980 59 47 68
t : 01132 25 25 00
--




From pobrien at orbtech.com  Thu Nov 20 23:40:32 2003
From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien)
Date: 20 Nov 2003 16:40:32 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website
In-Reply-To: <3FBD3684.9060806@pollenation.net>
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
	<200311200322.hAK3M6Nl003037@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m21xs3rum4.fsf@orbtech.com> <3FBD3684.9060806@pollenation.net>
Message-ID: <m21xs2irz3.fsf@orbtech.com>

Tim Parkin <tim at pollenation.net> writes:

> I quite like
> 
> pyrite

I like it too, but we'd face competition:

http://www.pyrite.org/

> or
> 
> pyurest

Yuck!  How do you even pronounce it?  :-)

> headrest keeps appearing at the back of my mind too....

Hmm.  How about "sleepy" -- just kidding.

> Restify sounds like a sort of wysywig front end to rest (which we
> have been thinking of doing also), as it's in use at the moment as a
> verb (google shows a few results).

It could mean just about anything.

> At the end of the day I don't mind as long as it's descriptive. What
> is it it's going to do anyway (whats it's 'USP' for want of a better
> acronym)

I don't really care about the name either.  I'll be happy with
whatever the majority wants.

-- 
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------


From lac at strakt.com  Fri Nov 21 01:14:46 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:14:46 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website 
In-Reply-To: Message from Tim Parkin <tim@pollenation.net> 
   of "Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:47:48 GMT." <3FBD3684.9060806@pollenation.net> 
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
	<200311200322.hAK3M6Nl003037@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m21xs3rum4.fsf@orbtech.com> <3FBD3684.9060806@pollenation.net> 
Message-ID: <200311210014.hAL0EkhU005272@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


I thought of 'restify' as something you would pour something in some
other format, say html, into and get ReST out ....

I like being a restifarian.

Pyrite pleases the geologist in me.

Laura

From goodmansond at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 21 01:54:44 2003
From: goodmansond at yahoo.com (Dean Goodmanson)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:54:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pypy-dev] subscription request
Message-ID: <20031121005445.73833.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd like to lurk and potentially offer a few thoughts
regarding a Python community site.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
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From sdeibel at wingide.com  Fri Nov 21 06:00:54 2003
From: sdeibel at wingide.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:00:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website
In-Reply-To: <m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
References: <200311192112.hAJLCOZm002129@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
 <m2vfpglye2.fsf@orbtech.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0311202354020.3101-100000@hedgehog>

Hi,

To get this discussion off this somewhat random list, and to get the
ball rolling, I've created a new mailing list for discussion and
development of an reStructuredText/docutils-based web/CMS framework:

http://wingide.com/mailman/listinfo/restweb

I've also packaged up and released the source code that I've been working
on for reST-based web/CMS support:

http://wingide.com/opensource/restweb

Be warned, this is more for code reading than anything; it works quite
well but there is not out-of-the-box example; see README.txt for details.
My primary intention of dropping this out there is to get others to do the
same so we can figure out how to proceed on joint design and development
based on our collected ideas, code, and requirements.

Finally, note http://lino.sourceforge.net/webman.html is a related
project just announced on the docutils mailing list.

Stephan Deibel

--
Wing IDE for Python
Archaeopteryx Software, Inc
Take Flight!

www.wingide.com

From dinu at mac.com  Fri Nov 21 09:00:17 2003
From: dinu at mac.com (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:00:17 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: from private mail out of discussion on building a
	communitypythion website
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0311202354020.3101-100000@hedgehog>
Message-ID: <BE94141C-1BF8-11D8-92D3-00039345C610@mac.com>

Stephan Deibel:

> To get this discussion off this somewhat random list, and to get the
> ball rolling, I've created a new mailing list for discussion and
> development of an reStructuredText/docutils-based web/CMS framework:

Two last comments from my side, as this really doesn't entirely
fit here...

> Finally, note http://lino.sourceforge.net/webman.html is a related
> project just announced on the docutils mailing list.

It's interesting to add an exec directove to Docutils, but it's
far more powerful to use a general template processor like EmPy
as I did with HeyHeyWickie. ;-)

Tim Parkin:

> Restify sounds like a sort of wysywig front end to rest (which we have 
> been thinking of doing also), as it's in use at the moment as a verb 
> (google shows a few results).

Look also at http://python.net/~gherman/ReSTedit.html (on OS X).

Dinu

--
Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman
......................................................................
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are
the easiest person to fool." (Richard Feynman)


From hpk at trillke.net  Fri Nov 21 10:38:08 2003
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:38:08 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] subscription request
In-Reply-To: <20031121005445.73833.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>;
	from goodmansond@yahoo.com on Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 04:54:44PM -0800
References: <20031121005445.73833.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031121103808.Q15957@prim.han.de>

[Dean Goodmanson Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 04:54:44PM -0800]
> I'd like to lurk and potentially offer a few thoughts
> regarding a Python community site.

Did you consider simply subscribing on

    http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev

? 

cheers, 

    holger

From pobrien at orbtech.com  Sat Nov 22 02:58:42 2003
From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien)
Date: 21 Nov 2003 19:58:42 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Subversion questions
Message-ID: <m2wu9t6u5p.fsf@orbtech.com>

It looks like I'm going to invest in a server to host all my web
activities.  I'll have root access and can install whatever I want.
So I'll be installing subversion.  What particular setup has worked
well for the PyPy folks?  I'll probably use Debian for the OS.

Also, Laura, are you using Subversion from within Emacs?  If so, what
did you do to set that up?  I *love* accessing cvs from Emacs, so I'd
like to be able to do the same with Subversion.

Since I'll have unlimited domain capabilities, I can host the entire
project, if you want.  I'll be installing Mailman, so I can set up
some mailing lists as well.  If we can decide on a name (unless
everyone is happy with restweb), I can register the domain name as
well.  The following are available:

restweb.net
rest-web.com
rest-web.net
rest-web.org

If someone else wants to host this (Holger, Stepen) that's fine.  Just
thought I'd offer.

-- 
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------


From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr  Sat Nov 22 14:05:21 2003
From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:05:21 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Subversion questions
In-Reply-To: <m2wu9t6u5p.fsf@orbtech.com>
References: <m2wu9t6u5p.fsf@orbtech.com>
Message-ID: <20031122130521.GA24024@logilab.fr>

On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 07:58:42PM -0600, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
> It looks like I'm going to invest in a server to host all my web
> activities.  I'll have root access and can install whatever I want.
> So I'll be installing subversion.  What particular setup has worked
> well for the PyPy folks?  I'll probably use Debian for the OS.

Laura will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the PBF's server
could also be hosting such a project. It's using debian. Instead of
handling the whole thing by yourself, you might be interested of
benifiting from what's already available and joining the effort.

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From pobrien at orbtech.com  Sat Nov 22 14:39:00 2003
From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien)
Date: 22 Nov 2003 07:39:00 -0600
Subject: [pypy-dev] Subversion questions
In-Reply-To: <20031122130521.GA24024@logilab.fr>
References: <m2wu9t6u5p.fsf@orbtech.com> <20031122130521.GA24024@logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <m28ym85xqj.fsf@orbtech.com>

"Nicolas Chauvat" <Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr> writes:

> On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 07:58:42PM -0600, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
> > It looks like I'm going to invest in a server to host all my web
> > activities.  I'll have root access and can install whatever I want.
> > So I'll be installing subversion.  What particular setup has worked
> > well for the PyPy folks?  I'll probably use Debian for the OS.
> 
> Laura will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the PBF's server
> could also be hosting such a project. It's using debian. Instead of
> handling the whole thing by yourself, you might be interested of
> benifiting from what's already available and joining the effort.

Laura *has* offered the use of that server.  And I agree - it makes
sense for everyone to work together.  So I'll back off on my rush to
make something happen.  I've got my hands full as it is.  (I haven't
even had time to look at Stephen's code.)

In any case, it sounds like we've got several systems capable of
running subversion and restweb, so we shouldn't have any trouble
testing this new content management system.  At this point that's
probably more important than where any of this is hosted.

And I promise that I won't cross-post to the PyPy list any more.
Stephen has a restweb list set up, so we should carry on discussions
there.  List details are here, for any PyPy folks that want to join:

http://wingide.com/mailman/roster/restweb

I see that David Goodger (Mr. reStructuredText himself) is on the
list, which is excellent.  I'm excited.  I feel like I may actually
get the kind of content management system I've wanted for years.

-- 
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech      http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien
-----------------------------------------------
"Your source for Python programming expertise."
-----------------------------------------------


From xsteve at riic.at  Mon Nov 24 09:02:28 2003
From: xsteve at riic.at (=?iso-8859-1?q?Stefan_Reich=F6r?=)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:02:28 +0100
Subject: [pypy-dev] Subversion questions
In-Reply-To: <m2wu9t6u5p.fsf@orbtech.com> (Patrick K. O'Brien's message of
 "21 Nov 2003 19:58:42 -0600")
References: <m2wu9t6u5p.fsf@orbtech.com>
Message-ID: <w4dvfpayz1n.fsf@felix.riic.uni-linz.ac.at>

Hi Patrick!

> Also, Laura, are you using Subversion from within Emacs?  If so, what
> did you do to set that up?  I *love* accessing cvs from Emacs, so I'd
> like to be able to do the same with Subversion.
>
I have written psvn.el to access a subversion repository from emacs.
(http://xsteve.nit.at/prg/emacs)

Please tell me, if you miss something.

Stefan.