From roccomoretti at netscape.net Sun May 4 22:17:34 2003 From: roccomoretti at netscape.net (Rocco Moretti) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:17:34 -0400 Subject: [pypy-dev] Extending the ObjectSpace Concept Message-ID: <4E8C67F1.551E3187.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> I think it may be worthwhile to extend the concept of Object Spaces to the bytecode and sourcecode levels. (Provisional names: BytecodeSpace and SyntaxSpace.) Just as an ObjectSpace embokdies the abstract concept of the semantics of objects and their interactions, a Bytecode space embodies the concept of the bytecode and its effect on execution flow control. Likewise, a SyntaxSpace embodies the abstract concept of the textual program and its mapping onto bytecode and object definitons. Now, these spaces are distinct, but they are not independant. The SyntaxSpace needs to know which BytecodeSpace and ObjectSpace to use to output functions and objects, a BytecodeSpace needs to know what ObjectSpace to use to implement object interactions, and an ObjectSpace needs to have some idea about SyntaxSpaces and Bytecode spaces so that it can compile strings and execute functions. As I imagine it currently, the ObjectSpace will be the controlling space. A string or file is given to the ObjectSpace to execute. It passes the string to the SyntaxSpace, which then compiles it into a number of ObjectSpace objects, including module, function and code objects. The object space then executes those functions by passing them to the appropriate BytecodeSpace. In the process of execution, the BytecodeSpace then calls back to the ObjectSpace to implement the object semantics. Note that there is a distinction between BytecodeSpaces and the an ExecutionContext, in that each BytecodeSpace would have singleton semantics, but there can be multiple different ExecutionContexts. (Perhaps it could be as simple as a class/instance distinction.) Perhaps the Bytecode/Syntax Spaces don't need to be actual entities, but could stay as abstract concepts. If accepted, one change that should be made is to shift the function call semantics in the object space to have an explicit execution context as a parameter, so that it is clear that the ObjectSpace is controling execution. Which sort of leads me to the reason I got on this train of thought. Over the past couple of weeks I've been trying to fix the remaining bugs in the trivial object space. Some of them seem to stem (at least in part) to the lack of a separate sys/builtins module for the application level code. (As was mentioned earlier by mwh). I've attempted to fix it by special casing the builtin __import__(). However, in order to do so, __import__() needs to be able to call out to interpreter level python functions. With the current TrivialObjectSpace, that's impossible as all python functions are run through the pypy interpreter. As I see it, there are two simultaneous execution "threads" running through the interpreter. The host interpreted "interperter level" functions, and the pypy interpreted "application level" functions. The host interperter takes care of the first, so I'll deal with the second. You can split the application level functions into three categories: Application Space Functions: Python functions which should be run under the pypy interpreter. (i.e. User code) Interpreter Level Python Functions: Functions written in Python which need to be run on the host interpreter. These are functions which are called from and return to user code. (Like a special cased __import__()). Builtin Functions: Compiled code, to be run on the processor itself. Currently, we don't make a distinction between the two types of Python functions - we do exclusively Application Level functions. To do this we need to distinguish between the two. Therefore I propose that even in the TrivialObjectSpace we have special function objects. These can be just a simple wrapper around the host function objects to mark them as Application Level functions, as opposed to the unwrapped Interpreter Level functions. I think the wrapping can easily be accomplished in the MAKE_FUNCTION opcode. Does any of this sound reasonable? I tried to explain it well, but I'm quite sure I failed, so if you have any questions, please ask. -Rocco __________________________________________________________________ Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days! http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 From mwh at python.net Mon May 5 20:41:30 2003 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:41:30 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: Extending the ObjectSpace Concept References: <4E8C67F1.551E3187.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> Message-ID: <2mwuh56xt1.fsf@starship.python.net> roccomoretti at netscape.net (Rocco Moretti) writes: [...] > Which sort of leads me to the reason I got on this train of thought. Over > the past couple of weeks I've been trying to fix the remaining bugs in the > trivial object space. Some of them seem to stem (at least in part) to the > lack of a separate sys/builtins module for the application level code. (As > was mentioned earlier by mwh). I've attempted to fix it by special casing > the builtin __import__(). However, in order to do so, __import__() needs > to be able to call out to interpreter level python functions. With the > current TrivialObjectSpace, that's impossible as all python functions are > run through the pypy interpreter. Yes! I ran into this a few weeks back but then forgot exactly what the issue was :-( [...] > Does any of this sound reasonable? I tried to explain it well, but I'm > quite sure I failed, so if you have any questions, please ask. No, your description of the problem and solution made much sense over here. Are you coming to the sprint in May? Cheers, M. -- I also fondly recall Paris because that's where I learned to debug Zetalisp while drunk. -- Olin Shivers From arigo at tunes.org Tue May 6 15:58:47 2003 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:58:47 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Linking to the web page Message-ID: <20030506135847.GA5222@magma.unil.ch> Hello, I've had feedback from someone not finding Pypy's web pages. He says the mailing list page is showing up in a Yahoo search but not the http://codespeak.net/pypy/. Can someone please add a link to the latter from the former ? Thanks ! Armin From arigo at tunes.org Tue May 6 19:00:10 2003 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:00:10 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Extending the ObjectSpace Concept In-Reply-To: <4E8C67F1.551E3187.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> References: <4E8C67F1.551E3187.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20030506170010.GB5222@magma.unil.ch> Hello Rocco, (Firstly, sorry for the lack of answers to your contributions; you seem to be the most active person on pypy right now...) On Sun, May 04, 2003 at 04:17:34PM -0400, Rocco Moretti wrote: > I think it may be worthwhile to extend the concept of Object Spaces to the > bytecode and sourcecode levels. (Provisional names: BytecodeSpace and > SyntaxSpace.) Ok. It makes sense. I should write a bit more about what I intended to use ObjectSpaces for, though, and see how explicit Bytecode/Syntax spaces fit in the picture. I promize I'll. In particular, I don't think about ObjectSpaces as controlling spaces, as you do, so there is some idea matching to do there :-) > If accepted, one change that should be made is to shift the function call > semantics in the object space to have an explicit execution context as a > parameter, so that it is clear that the ObjectSpace is controling > execution. That's not clear, because almost any other operation could indirectly do a function call (e.g. hash() calling the class' __hash__() method). > (...) __import__(). However, in order to do so, __import__() needs > to be able to call out to interpreter level python functions. With the > current TrivialObjectSpace, that's impossible as all python functions are > run through the pypy interpreter. Yes; we miss a way to call interpreter-level functions from application-level ones (the CPython's "builtin function objects"). We could take a broader point of view here, and use the separation between function objects and code objects. We could have several types of code objects, each one corresponding to a kind of function that you list: bytecodes, built-in (i.e. interpreter-level), compiled machine code... The (single) function object type would have the role of the interface, allowing introspection -- which is a nice thing to have, CPython's built-in functions lack that -- whereas the various code object types would correspond to the various ways of implementing a function. Come to that, these ways could be tied to various BytecodeSpaces -- a concept we could rename ExecutionSpace, maybe ? Executing a function object would then be done by collecting the arguments based on the signature (which would be published in the function object), which would result, say, in a single dictionary (the "locals"); then we call "f.func_code.execute(globals, locals)". What do you think about it ? Armin From gregoire.weber at switzerland.org Wed May 7 12:08:44 2003 From: gregoire.weber at switzerland.org (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Gr=E9goire?= Weber) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:08:44 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] PyPy and Zope3-Sprints before Europython Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030507115047.02785598@127.0.0.1> Hi people, I'm organizing (wich Godefroid, gotcha AT pop.swing DOT be) the Zope3 sprint hold in parallel to your PyPy sprint before the europython conference. Can somebody confirm the dates you planed the sprints: 22 of June to the 24 of june 2003 ? Thanks! Gregoire P.S.: Godefroid will be your contact in the next two and a half weeks, as I have to go to my yearly military service. _____________________________________ Gr?goire Weber Rigistr. 31 CH-8006 Z?rich Switzerland phone: +41-(0)1-361 66 11 mobile: +41-(0)79-44 11 457 mailto:gregoire.weber at switzerland.org From gotcha at swing.be Thu May 15 09:39:13 2003 From: gotcha at swing.be (Godefroid Chapelle) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:39:13 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] EuroPython 2003 sprints Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030515092500.01fd9b60@pop.swing.be> Hi all, Two sprints (Pypy and Zope3) will be organised on June 22-24 in Louvain-la-Neuve, very near Charleroi. I send you this information so that you can make your rooms reservations. The classrooms are still not definitely confirmed but there should be no problems to get free access to the classrooms on those Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. Still, if you have any money problem, make sure you can cancel without too much expenses. You will find any needed information at http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/EuroPython2003Sprint Gregoire Weber is taking the lead of the Zope3 sprint organization. I'll be the contact till he comes back from military service at the end of this month. I'd appreciate if the Pypy sprint leader(s) could contact me. -- Godefroid Chapelle BubbleNet sprl rue Victor Horta, 18 / 202 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve Belgium Tel + 32 (10) 459901 TVA 467 093 008 RC Niv 49849 From roccomoretti at netscape.net Tue May 20 05:15:04 2003 From: roccomoretti at netscape.net (Rocco Moretti) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:15:04 -0400 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: Extending the ObjectSpace Concept Message-ID: <00736D1A.72EA39FC.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> Michael Hudson wrote: >roccomoretti at netscape.net (Rocco Moretti) writes: > >[...] >> Which sort of leads me to the reason I got on this train of thought. Over >> the past couple of weeks I've been trying to fix the remaining bugs in the >> trivial object space. Some of them seem to stem (at least in part) to the >> lack of a separate sys/builtins module for the application level code. (As >> was mentioned earlier by mwh). I've attempted to fix it by special casing >> the builtin __import__(). However, in order to do so, __import__() needs >> to be able to call out to interpreter level python functions. With the >> current TrivialObjectSpace, that's impossible as all python functions are >> run through the pypy interpreter. > >Yes! ?I ran into this a few weeks back but then forgot exactly what >the issue was :-( Although I don't know exacally the problems you had with your implementation, there are two somewhat different issues that I came across. The first is that any Python function called by interpreted code is also interpreted. This means we can never "escape" to the interpreter level python code. The second is that even if it was possible to call interpreter level functions, an application level __import__() would not have any references to those functions anyway, and so would not be able to call them in the first place. >Are you coming to the sprint in May? Unfortunately, due to my schedule, I cannot. But I wish the best of luck to those who can. -Rocco __________________________________________________________________ Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days! http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 From roccomoretti at netscape.net Tue May 20 06:04:21 2003 From: roccomoretti at netscape.net (Rocco Moretti) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:04:21 -0400 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: Extending the ObjectSpace Concept Message-ID: <7BA4399E.2F965967.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> Armin Rigo wrote: >On Sun, May 04, 2003 at 04:17:34PM -0400, Rocco Moretti wrote: >> I think it may be worthwhile to extend the concept of Object Spaces to the >> bytecode and sourcecode levels. (Provisional names: BytecodeSpace and >> SyntaxSpace.) > >Ok. It makes sense. I should write a bit more about what I intended to use >ObjectSpaces for, though, and see how explicit Bytecode/Syntax spaces fit >in the picture. I promize I'll. In particular, I don't think about >ObjectSpaces as controlling spaces, as you do, so there is some idea >matching to do there >:-) I think I may have not been clear on this point. I now think "controlling" is too strong a word. What I meant to imply is that the Spaces are the codification of abstrace concepts, and are on a somewhat equal footing in that regards. However, in an inheratance fashion, the ObjectSpaces are somewhat "superior" to either the Bytecode or SynataxSpaces in that you can swap out the Bytecode or SyntaxSpace without much change, if any, to the ObjectSpace, but if you rewrite the ObjectSpace, the Bytecode and SyntaxSpaces need updating to accomidate the change. Where "control" comes in can somewhat be seen in the bootstrapping of the intrpreter. This is how I imagine it working (in pseudocode - method names are descriptive only): #script is a file containing the script to run w_str = ObjectSpace.to_string(script.read()) #ObjectSpace contains a reference to a SyntaxSpace to use to compile # the string w_code = ObjectSpace.compile(w_str) #w_code is the script's code object #ObjectSpace contains a reference to the BytecodeSpace to use to run # this code object ObjSpace.execute_code(w_code) The script is converted to an application level string first because I imagine we would want to write the compiler in the application level (and so the input string would need to be converted anyway.) The ObjectSpace "controls" in that Bytecode objects and input Strings are Objects, and their semantics are controled by the ObjectSpace. (Part of those semantics being what happens when you run or compile those objects.) >> If accepted, one change that should be made is to shift the function call >> semantics in the object space to have an explicit execution context as a >> parameter, so that it is clear that the ObjectSpace is controling >> execution. > >That's not clear, because almost any other operation could indirectly do a >function call (e.g. hash() calling the class' __hash__() method). Good point. An alterior motive in keeping the execution context explicit is that it eliminates that implicit global, and makes multiple threads less headache provoking. Is there a good way of keeping the execution context explicit? Or another possibility: do we need to maintain the same execution context when calling implementing methods? (e.g. spawn a new execution context when starting the __hash__() method call.) I'm not too familiar with it, but I recall hearing that originally Smalltalk was to have the implementation of each object be in a seperate thread. (Hence the Smalltalk terminology "message passing" as opposed to "calling a method function".) > >> (...) __import__(). However, in order to do so, __import__() needs >> to be able to call out to interpreter level python functions. With the >> current TrivialObjectSpace, that's impossible as all python functions are >> run through the pypy interpreter. > >Yes; we miss a way to call interpreter-level functions from >application-level ones (the CPython's "builtin function objects"). Exactally. Except that for CPython, "builtin function objects" are written in C, and for PyPy, they can be written in either C or Python. >We could take a broader point of view here, and use the separation between >function objects and code objects. We could have several types of code >objects, each one corresponding to a kind of function that you list: ? >bytecodes, built-in (i.e. interpreter-level), compiled machine code... The >(single) function object type would have the role of the interface, allowing >introspection -- which is a nice thing to have, CPython's built-in functions >lack that -- whereas the various code object types would correspond to the >various ways of implementing a function. Come to that, these ways could be >tied to various BytecodeSpaces -- a concept we could rename ExecutionSpace, >maybe ? As I mentioned, I'm not tied to the names - they were just something to start from. That said, I do agree that "ExecutionSpace" does a better job of capturing the true sense of what they are than "BytecodeSpaces" does. >Executing a function object would then be done by collecting the arguments >based on the signature (which would be published in the function object), >which would result, say, in a single dictionary (the "locals"); then we call >"f.func_code.execute(globals, locals)". > >What do you think about it ? Sounds sensable. However, this proposal seems to go beyond reworking the internals and crosses into redesigning the user interface. (Which was something we were avoiding, if I remember correctly.) Properly reworked, though, it may be a worthwhile thing to change about CPython, at which point it isn't a redesign. Is this PEP material, or is it destined for a BDFL veto? -Rocco __________________________________________________________________ Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days! http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 From lac at strakt.com Tue May 20 14:46:34 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:46:34 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] we need an irc meeting about the Göteborg Sprint soon. Message-ID: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Tomorrow at 1900? Laura From hpk at trillke.net Tue May 20 14:52:06 2003 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:52:06 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Bpypy-dev=5D_we_need_an_irc_meeting_about_the_G=F6tebor?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?g_Sprint_soon=2E?= In-Reply-To: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>; from lac@strakt.com on Tue, May 20, 2003 at 02:46:34PM +0200 References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20030520145206.U6645@prim.han.de> [Laura Creighton Tue, May 20, 2003 at 02:46:34PM +0200] > Tomorrow at 1900? If you want to use the sprint list just drop me the list of participants and i'll set it up today. We should do this for the Belgium-sprint anyway. holger From lac at strakt.com Tue May 20 15:52:37 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:52:37 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Bpypy-dev=5D_we_need_an_irc_meeting_about_the_G=F6tebor?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?g_Sprint_soon=2E?= In-Reply-To: Message from holger krekel of "Tue, 20 May 2003 14:52:06 +0200." <20030520145206.U6645@prim.han.de> References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20030520145206.U6645@prim.han.de> Message-ID: <200305201352.h4KDqbIe009131@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Tue, 20 May 2003 14:52:06 +0200, holger krekel writes: >[Laura Creighton Tue, May 20, 2003 at 02:46:34PM +0200] >> Tomorrow at 1900? > >If you want to use the sprint list just drop me the list >of participants and i'll set it up today. We should do this >for the Belgium-sprint anyway. > > holger In G?teborg: Armin, Christian, Michael, Tomek, Jacob and I will be returning. Add Anders Hammerquist iko at strakt.com, Alex Martelli aleaxit at yahoo.com, Anna Ravenscroft rev_anna_r at yahoo.com, and Samuele Pedroni pedronis at bluewin.ch In Belgium: Add yourself, Dinu, and Guido van Rossum (guido at python.org) Who else is coming? Have I forgotten anybody? Can Jens-Uwe make it? Laura From tismer at tismer.com Tue May 20 16:17:32 2003 From: tismer at tismer.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:17:32 +0200 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Bpypy-dev=5D_we_need_an_irc_m?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?eeting_about_the_G=F6teborg_Sprint_soon=2E?= In-Reply-To: <200305201352.h4KDqbIe009131@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20030520145206.U6645@prim.han.de> <200305201352.h4KDqbIe009131@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <3ECA38FC.30009@tismer.com> Laura Creighton wrote: ... > In Belgium: > > Add yourself, Dinu, and Guido van Rossum (guido at python.org) > > Who else is coming? Have I forgotten anybody? Can Jens-Uwe make it? And add me, of course. ciao - chris -- Christian Tismer :^) Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ From lac at strakt.com Tue May 20 16:15:52 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:15:52 +0200 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Bpypy-dev=5D_we_need_an_irc_m?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?eeting_about_the_G=F6teborg_Sprint_soon=2E?= In-Reply-To: Message from Christian Tismer of "Tue, 20 May 2003 16:17:32 +0200." <3ECA38FC.30009@tismer.com> References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20030520145206.U6645@prim.han.de> <200305201352.h4KDqbIe009131@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <3ECA38FC.30009@tismer.com> Message-ID: <200305201415.h4KEFqIe009270@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Tue, 20 May 2003 16:17:32 +0200, Christian Tismer writes: >Laura Creighton wrote: >... >> In Belgium: >> >> Add yourself, Dinu, and Guido van Rossum (guido at python.org) >> >> Who else is coming? Have I forgotten anybody? Can Jens-Uwe make it? > >And add me, of course. > >ciao - chris > >-- >Christian Tismer :^) >Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's >Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ >14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ >work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776 >PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 > whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ Ahh, I meant in _addition_ to those on the G?teborg list .... I wasn't forgetting you ... Laura From mwh at python.net Tue May 20 16:24:29 2003 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:24:29 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: we need an irc meeting about the =?iso-8859-1?q?G=F6teborg?=Sprint soon. References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <2miss5pug2.fsf@starship.python.net> Laura Creighton writes: > Tomorrow at 1900? What do we need to discuss? The proposed time should be fine for me. Cheers, M. -- ... but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel if I don't have to. On the other hand, if the currently instantiated version of the wheel consists of a square rock covered with moss, I might as well just start fresh. -- Roy Smith, comp.lang.python From tismer at tismer.com Tue May 20 16:42:20 2003 From: tismer at tismer.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:42:20 +0200 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Bpypy-dev=5D_Re=3A_we_need_an_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?irc_meeting_about_the_G=F6teborgSprint_soon=2E?= In-Reply-To: <2miss5pug2.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <2miss5pug2.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <3ECA3ECC.3010803@tismer.com> Michael Hudson wrote: > Laura Creighton writes: > > >>Tomorrow at 1900? > > > What do we need to discuss? The proposed time should be fine for me. Which timezone, please? At this time of writing, it is 16:42 in Germany. ciao - chris -- Christian Tismer :^) Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ From lac at strakt.com Tue May 20 17:08:20 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:08:20 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: we need an irc meeting about the =?iso-8859-1?q?G=F6teborg?=Sprint soon. In-Reply-To: Message from Michael Hudson of "Tue, 20 May 2003 15:24:29 BST." <2miss5pug2.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <2miss5pug2.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <200305201508.h4KF8KIe009515@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Tue, 20 May 2003 15:24:29 BST, Michael Hudson writes: >Laura Creighton writes: > >> Tomorrow at 1900? > >What do we need to discuss? The proposed time should be fine for me. > >Cheers, >M. General logistics -- who is arriving when and where. Food allergies and dislikes. A tentative plan for the first days -- we can work out subsequent days in person. Laura From lac at strakt.com Tue May 20 17:09:34 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:09:34 +0200 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Bpypy-dev=5D_Re=3A_we_need_an_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?irc_meeting_about_the_G=F6teborgSprint_soon=2E?= In-Reply-To: Message from Christian Tismer of "Tue, 20 May 2003 16:42:20 +0200." <3ECA3ECC.3010803@tismer.com> References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <2miss5pug2.fsf@starship.python.net> <3ECA3ECC.3010803@tismer.com> Message-ID: <200305201509.h4KF9YIe009540@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Tue, 20 May 2003 16:42:20 +0200, Christian Tismer writes: >Michael Hudson wrote: > >> Laura Creighton writes: >> >> >>>Tomorrow at 1900? >> >> >> What do we need to discuss? The proposed time should be fine for me. > >Which timezone, please? >At this time of writing, it is 16:42 in Germany. > >ciao - chris Your time zone -- CEST. It is 17:02 here now. Laura From manhood at cs.com Wed May 21 01:56:46 2003 From: manhood at cs.com (Manhood Enlargement) Date: Tue, 20 May 03 23:56:46 GMT Subject: [pypy-dev] Make Your Manhood Bigger. Men Read This Message-ID: <9594$f--$1p72gnx$lot@d04a52> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tismer at tismer.com Wed May 21 02:52:44 2003 From: tismer at tismer.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 02:52:44 +0200 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Bpypy-dev=5D_Re=3A_we_need_an_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?irc_meeting_about_the_G=F6teborgSprint_soon=2E?= In-Reply-To: <200305201509.h4KF9YIe009540@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <200305201246.h4KCkYjq008792@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <2miss5pug2.fsf@starship.python.net> <3ECA3ECC.3010803@tismer.com> <200305201509.h4KF9YIe009540@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <3ECACDDC.40803@tismer.com> Laura Creighton wrote: ... > Your time zone -- CEST. It is 17:02 here now. Will be there for you, at 7pm, my time. cheers -- chris -- Christian Tismer :^) Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ From jacob at strakt.com Thu May 22 17:14:05 2003 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:14:05 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Please submit status reports Message-ID: <200305221509.h4MF988m024538@theraft.strakt.com> To help the sprinters, we would be grateful if everyone could post a brief status report about the latest things you did on the project and what you think the next step in this area is. I particular, we would be grateful if Rocco, Dinu, Holger and all the sprinters would provide input. Please post to this list. I don't think anyone would mind. Jacob From hpk at trillke.net Thu May 22 17:54:49 2003 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:54:49 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Please submit status reports In-Reply-To: <200305221509.h4MF988m024538@theraft.strakt.com>; from jacob@strakt.com on Thu, May 22, 2003 at 05:14:05PM +0200 References: <200305221509.h4MF988m024538@theraft.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20030522175449.G26325@prim.han.de> [Jacob Hall?n Thu, May 22, 2003 at 05:14:05PM +0200] > To help the sprinters, we would be grateful if everyone could post a brief > status report about the latest things you did on the project and what you > think the next step in this area is. I particular, we would be grateful if > Rocco, Dinu, Holger and all the sprinters would provide input. For my part, that's quite easy because i couldn't do much for more personal reasons. Judging from the svn revision number there wasn't much coding going on since the last sprint. At least for my part i hope to be able to change that soon. have fun at the sprint (which i envy you for), and tell me if you need help, holger From gotcha at swing.be Fri May 23 16:03:54 2003 From: gotcha at swing.be (Godefroid Chapelle) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:03:54 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: EuroPython 2003 sprints Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030523155946.01dedb50@pop.swing.be> > >Hi all, > >Two sprints (Pypy and Zope3) will be organised on June 22-24 in >Louvain-la-Neuve, very near Charleroi. > >I send you this information so that you can make your rooms reservations. > >The classrooms are still not definitely confirmed but there should be no >problems to get free access to the classrooms on those Sunday, Monday and >Tuesday. The formal authorization has been given. I'll go next week to pay the rooms cautions. >You will find any needed information at >http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/EuroPython2003Sprint > >Gregoire Weber is taking the lead of the Zope3 sprint organization. I'll >be the contact till he comes back from military service at the end of this >month. > >I'd appreciate if the Pypy sprint leader(s) could contact me. I'd really appreciate to get in contact with the Pypy sprint leader. In order to have an idea of how many people will be present. -- Godefroid Chapelle BubbleNet sprl rue Victor Horta, 18 / 202 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve Belgium Tel + 32 (10) 459901 TVA 467 093 008 RC Niv 49849 From lac at strakt.com Fri May 23 23:20:27 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:20:27 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: PyPython In-Reply-To: Message from Stephen Figgins of "Fri, 23 May 2003 14:16:09 CDT." <3ECE7379.8060907@monitor.net> References: <3ECE7379.8060907@monitor.net> Message-ID: <200305232120.h4NLKRIe002011@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Fri, 23 May 2003 14:16:09 CDT, Stephen Figgins writes: >Hi Laura, I was thinking of writing up a short article on PyPython. >Would you be a good person to talk to about that project? > >-Stephen Hello Stephen, I am indeed a good person to speak with about this. However PyPy is having a Sprint at my place of business all of next week, starting tomorrow, so if you have any taste for irc meetings, or speakerphones, you could manage to reach most of us on-mass in the next few days. In the meantime you may be interested in http://codespeak.net/moin/pypy/ (our wiki). It is maintained by Holger Kregel, one of the original pypy organisers and coders who sadly cannot attend this week -- though we hope he may be able to come by mid-week. You can reach him at hpk at trillke.net. You can also sent mail to pypy-dev at codespeak.net to reach all of us. Looking very much forward to speaking with you, Laura Creighton From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de Sat May 24 00:36:00 2003 From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:36:00 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Please submit status reports In-Reply-To: <20030522175449.G26325@prim.han.de> Message-ID: holger krekel: > [Jacob Hall?n Thu, May 22, 2003 at 05:14:05PM +0200] >> To help the sprinters, we would be grateful if everyone could post a >> brief >> status report about the latest things you did on the project and what >> you >> think the next step in this area is. I particular, we would be >> grateful if >> Rocco, Dinu, Holger and all the sprinters would provide input. > > For my part, that's quite easy because i couldn't do much > for more personal reasons. Judging from the svn revision > number there wasn't much coding going on since the last sprint. > At least for my part i hope to be able to change that soon. Same over here, too busy with other stuff to really follow what's going on in this group, and I'm not quite sure when that will im- prove... Hope, you'll have a productive time in a couple of days! Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (Arthur C. Clarke) From tismer at tismer.com Sat May 24 01:22:50 2003 From: tismer at tismer.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:22:50 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: PyPython In-Reply-To: <200305232120.h4NLKRIe002011@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <3ECE7379.8060907@monitor.net> <200305232120.h4NLKRIe002011@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <3ECEAD4A.4030505@tismer.com> Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Fri, 23 May 2003 14:16:09 CDT, Stephen Figgins writes: > >>Hi Laura, I was thinking of writing up a short article on PyPython. >>Would you be a good person to talk to about that project? Stephen, good old friend! Can't you manage to just drop by? -- Christian Tismer :^) Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ From pypy-issues at codespeak.net Sun May 25 15:39:57 2003 From: pypy-issues at codespeak.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:39:57 +0000 Subject: [pypy-dev] [issue24] wiki search not quite broken Message-ID: <1053869997.47.0.804152637342.issue@codespeak.net> New submission from Michael Hudson : FindPage actually works, but you get lovely tracebacks for the header & side bar. Not important, but certainly uncosmetic. ---------- assignedto: hpk messages: 44 nosy: hpk, mwh priority: bug status: unread title: wiki search not quite broken __________________________________________________ PyPython issue tracker http://codespeak.net/issues/pypy/issue24 __________________________________________________ From roccomoretti at netscape.net Sun May 25 21:24:08 2003 From: roccomoretti at netscape.net (Rocco Moretti) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 15:24:08 -0400 Subject: [pypy-dev] Please submit status reports Message-ID: <43E0E82A.57D7FFCC.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> Jacob Hall?n wrote: >To help the sprinters, we would be grateful if everyone could post a brief >status report about the latest things you did on the project and what you >think the next step in this area is. I particular, we would be grateful if >Rocco, Dinu, Holger and all the sprinters would provide input. Summary: Most of my time on PyPy since the last sprint was involved in setting up a testing framework I felt comfortable using (submitted as PyPyTest.py in subversion under /user/rocco/tool/). To get the CPython regression tests to work properly, I had to improve exception matching. Once that was working, the missing exec statement functionality was low hanging fruit. Aside from my recent philosophy posts, I haven't done anything more with PyPy due to time constraints. Where to next: I'm of the opinion that the acid test for this phase of PyPy development is the sucessful execution of the CPython regression tests - does PyPy do what CPython is supposed to do. So squashing regression test bugs is high on my priority list. I think some of the bugs will need a slight core redesign in order to fix. So I'd think about the cause of the regression test bugs, and how to redesign the core to fix them. Once that's done, the StdObjSpace needs completion and testing, and if there is time left, adapting/creating an Application Level parser/compiler. And unless I miss my guess, that'll take us to the proposed 0.1.0 milestone, at which point the fun can begin. In short, empty the issues board. (Assuming "Finish StdObjSpace" and "No PyPy Compiler" get added at some point.) -Rocco __________________________________________________________________ McAfee VirusScan Online from the Netscape Network. Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/computing/mcafee/index.jsp?promo=393397 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 From lac at strakt.com Mon May 26 10:32:13 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:32:13 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: pypy europython sprint In-Reply-To: Message from holger krekel of "Mon, 26 May 2003 10:08:02 +0200." <20030526100802.S26325@prim.han.de> References: <20030525130003.H26325@prim.han.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20030526092717.01d6c540@pop.swing.be> <20030526100802.S26325@prim.han.de> Message-ID: <200305260832.h4Q8WDVH000774@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> The Saturday -- Tuesday dates are what we want, yes please. Jacob Hall?n and I want a double room with 2 beds. No smoking. Guido wants a single room. Also No smoking. Thanks very much, Laura Creighton From lac at strakt.com Mon May 26 11:24:50 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:24:50 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] Please submit status reports In-Reply-To: Message from roccomoretti@netscape.net (Rocco Moretti) of "Sun, 25 May 2003 15:24:08 EDT." <43E0E82A.57D7FFCC.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> References: <43E0E82A.57D7FFCC.9ADE5C6A@netscape.net> Message-ID: <200305260924.h4Q9OoVH000962@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Sun, 25 May 2003 15:24:08 EDT, Rocco Moretti writes: >Jacob Hall?n wrote: > >>To help the sprinters, we would be grateful if everyone could post a bri >ef >>status report about the latest things you did on the project and what yo >u >>think the next step in this area is. I particular, we would be grateful >if >>Rocco, Dinu, Holger and all the sprinters would provide input. > >Summary: > > Most of my time on PyPy since the last sprint was involved in setting u >p >a testing framework I felt comfortable using (submitted as PyPyTest.py in > >subversion under /user/rocco/tool/). To get the CPython regression tests >to work properly, I had to improve exception matching. Once that was >working, the missing exec statement functionality was low hanging fruit. >Aside from my recent philosophy posts, I haven't done anything more with >PyPy due to time constraints. > >Where to next: > > I'm of the opinion that the acid test for this phase of PyPy developmen >t >is the sucessful execution of the CPython regression tests - does PyPy do > >what CPython is supposed to do. So squashing regression test bugs is hig >h >on my priority list. I think some of the bugs will need a slight core >redesign in order to fix. So I'd think about the cause of the regression >test bugs, and how to redesign the core to fix them. > > Once that's done, the StdObjSpace needs completion and testing, and if >there is time left, adapting/creating an Application Level parser/compile >r. >And unless I miss my guess, that'll take us to the proposed 0.1.0 >milestone, at which point the fun can begin. > >In short, empty the issues board. (Assuming "Finish StdObjSpace" and "No >PyPy Compiler" get added at some point.) > >-Rocco > Right now what we are doing is Retiring Trivial Object Space. Standard Object Space is being made useful. Right now the goal for the end of the day is to be able to run s = "Hello World" print len(s) Right now we are dealing with builtins, including that __builtins__ right now is a module some of the time and sometimes a dict. This is true of C python as well, of course ... >>> __builtins__ >>> import string >>> type (string.__builtins__) We discovered that None is not None as well. Time for our objects to get id-s ... Rocco, can you come to Belgium for a Sprint June 21-24 before EuroPython? Laura Creighton From hpk at trillke.net Mon May 26 12:57:37 2003 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:57:37 +0200 Subject: [pypy-dev] new commit mailing list Message-ID: <20030526125737.F12236@prim.han.de> Hello, finally we have a commit-mailing list to which you can subscribe via http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-svn it receives all updates on pypy/trunk/src but not on pypy/trunk/www. If anybody is interested to also receive website-updates via a mailing list drop me a note and i'll setup one. holger From mwh at python.net Mon May 26 13:22:12 2003 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:22:12 +0100 Subject: [pypy-dev] Re: new commit mailing list References: <20030526125737.F12236@prim.han.de> Message-ID: <2m65nygdgb.fsf@starship.python.net> holger krekel writes: > Hello, > > finally we have a commit-mailing list to which you can subscribe via > > http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-svn Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou! Cheers, M. -- 41. Some programming languages manage to absorb change, but withstand progress. -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html