From brian at python.org  Sat Apr  7 01:35:55 2012
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 18:35:55 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- February
 2012 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAFy_4dK_NwDcKYArH6U-o+EV5v38piseYg4PwkjoKJUj0s9wYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dK_NwDcKYArH6U-o+EV5v38piseYg4PwkjoKJUj0s9wYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwrr41OOiLq=7cPvhrQ_x1qBcuv9VKCLNE6Xn6JVRaCJjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 14:45, Pat Campbell <patcam at python.org> wrote:
> Hello Pydotorg:
>
> Could you please post the following "PSF board meeting minutes" online,
> http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/? at the usual web
> locations:
> please see the attachment for the approved board meeting minutes for
> February 2012.
>
> If you have any questions, please let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> Pat

Here you go: http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/2012-02-27/

From patcam at python.org  Sat Apr  7 01:37:54 2012
From: patcam at python.org (Pat Campbell)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 19:37:54 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- February
 2012 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwrr41OOiLq=7cPvhrQ_x1qBcuv9VKCLNE6Xn6JVRaCJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dK_NwDcKYArH6U-o+EV5v38piseYg4PwkjoKJUj0s9wYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwrr41OOiLq=7cPvhrQ_x1qBcuv9VKCLNE6Xn6JVRaCJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFy_4dJx5uR2RWq8+gVJXF0giFGLEjhd5X4+p88BAD4DK8S65A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian:

Thanks very much,

Pat

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Brian Curtin <brian at python.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 14:45, Pat Campbell <patcam at python.org> wrote:
> > Hello Pydotorg:
> >
> > Could you please post the following "PSF board meeting minutes" online,
> > http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/  at the usual web
> > locations:
> > please see the attachment for the approved board meeting minutes for
> > February 2012.
> >
> > If you have any questions, please let me know.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Pat
>
> Here you go: http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/2012-02-27/
>



-- 
Pat Campbell
PSF Administrator/Secretary
patcam at python.org
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Apr  9 21:37:50 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (martin at v.loewis.de)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:37:50 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] DNS servers changed
Message-ID: <20120409213750.Horde.nSmDV1NNcXdPgzqOjUADCzA@webmail.df.eu>

We have changed the DNS servers from XS4ALL to dyn.com.
If there are any irregularities, please post them to the infrastructure list,
or, if that fails, contact Sean Reifschneider or myself (or roto-routers).

Regards,
Martin




From mal at egenix.com  Wed Apr 11 11:18:22 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:18:22 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Rebuild to correct menu structure
Message-ID: <4F854C5E.7030308@egenix.com>

Could someone please issue a clean rebuild of the site to get the
menu structure back into shape ?!

Basically:

make clean all

The cronjob running on the site doesn't appear to do this.

Alternatively, if someone could give me access to the machine, I could
do this myself.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Apr 11 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-04-28: PythonCamp 2010, Cologne, Germany              17 days to go

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From cmclaughlin at atlassian.com  Fri Apr 13 08:29:08 2012
From: cmclaughlin at atlassian.com (Charles McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:29:08 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] password prompt and ssl cert problem on
	svn.python.org
Message-ID: <CAERD-VZ4K2hbZemWNXumF_b70xX6OzBwYe6Rvp6KzNtCFYHWqg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I run a script that mirrors repos from hg.python.org to Bitbucket that
recently started choking on Subversion subrepos from svn.python.org.
I noticed https://svn.python.org/ is password protected which is
causing my problem, but http://svn.python.org/ is not.  Is the
password prompt on the https vhost necessary?  If not, can we remove
it please?  Also, there appears to be something wrong with the ssl
certificate.

Thanks,
Charles

From jeremy at tuxmachine.com  Fri Apr 13 17:14:37 2012
From: jeremy at tuxmachine.com (Jeremy Baron)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:14:37 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] password prompt and ssl cert problem on
	svn.python.org
In-Reply-To: <CAERD-VZ4K2hbZemWNXumF_b70xX6OzBwYe6Rvp6KzNtCFYHWqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERD-VZ4K2hbZemWNXumF_b70xX6OzBwYe6Rvp6KzNtCFYHWqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE-2OCb5E+fWWM75qQos9ZYregmiydsQTEPN2_u6fkCMu5-b4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 02:29, Charles McLaughlin
<cmclaughlin at atlassian.com> wrote:
>?Also, there appears to be something wrong with the ssl
> certificate.

Can you tell us more about the problem?

Seems fine (and unexpired) to me; just using a CA you might not be
configured to trust.

-Jeremy

> $ for CA in '' '-CAfile /usr/share/ca-certificates/cacert.org/cacert.org.crt'; do echo "${CA:-no CAfile}:"; openssl s_client -debug ${CA} -connect svn.python.org:443 2>&1 1>/dev/null </dev/null; done
> no CAfile:
> depth=0 /CN=svn.python.org
> verify error:num=20:unable to get local issuer certificate
> verify return:1
> depth=0 /CN=svn.python.org
> verify error:num=27:certificate not trusted
> verify return:1
> depth=0 /CN=svn.python.org
> verify error:num=21:unable to verify the first certificate
> verify return:1
> DONE
> -CAfile /usr/share/ca-certificates/cacert.org/cacert.org.crt:
> depth=1 /O=Root CA/OU=http://www.cacert.org/CN=CA Cert Signing Authority/emailAddress=support at cacert.org
> verify return:1
> depth=0 /CN=svn.python.org
> verify return:1
> DONE

From patcam at python.org  Sat Apr 14 22:34:56 2012
From: patcam at python.org (Pat Campbell)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:34:56 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Board Resolutions from January through February 2012
 Board Meetings - Please Post Online
Message-ID: <CAFy_4dKn1wFD_3bcsZ7FTmtKCDXAj677ocn-4OOmjsEXi6gkTw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi pydotorg team:



Could you please add the following board resolutions from

January through February 2012 board meetings to this web page:



http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/resolutions/



Please see the list of board resolutions to be added below:

* *

*January 16, 2012 board meeting*



**RESOLVED**, that the PSF provide grant funding of AUD$1500 to the

   PyCon Australia 2012 Conference as a silver level sponsor.



Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012



  **RESOLVED**, that the PSF authorize the expenditure of the Atlassian
donation of

   $10,000 with an additional $1500 from the foundation's budget for the
purchasing

   and shipping of servers to replace the existing Python.org/PSF
infrastructure.

   These servers are to be hosted at Oregon State University Open Source
Labs.



Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012



   **RESOLVED**, that the PSF make a donation to the Oregon State
University

   Foundation for the Oregon State University Open Source Labs in the
amount of

   $3000.



Approved 7-1-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012





*February 27 2012 board meeting*

* *

**RESOLVED**, that the Foundation spend a maximum of $5715.00 in purchasing
a

   long term storage array for the video archives of past python
conferences

   maintained by Carl Karsten. This array is to be jointly owned by the
Python

   Software Foundation and the Django Software Foundation.



Approved 7-0-0 by email vote, 04 February 2012



  **RESOLVED**, that the board repeals the previously passed resolution of
June 12, 2006 which states "until further notice, the Officers of the
Corporation may spend up to

   USD 500 per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to prompt
reporting

   to the Board, and consistent with the mission statement and requirements
of maintaining our status as a 501(c)3 non-profit."



   **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Officers of the Corporation
may spend up to USD 250 per expense without prior Board approval, but
subject to prompt reporting to the Board, and consistent with the mission
statement and requirements of maintaining

our status as a 501(c)3 non-profit.



   **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Directors of the
Corporation may spend up to USD 500 per expense without prior Board
approval, but subject to prompt reporting to the Board, and consistent with
the mission statement and requirements of maintaining our status as a
501(c)3 non-profit.



   **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Secretary of the
Corporation may spend up to USD 250 per expense without prior Board
approval, for expenses needed to undertake its duties as outlined in the
bylaws, and up to USD 500 per expense without prior Board approval, but
subject to prompt reporting to the Board, and consistent with the mission
statement and requirements of maintaining our status as a 501(c)3
non-profit.



Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012



  **RESOLVED**, that the Board recognizes the efforts expended by its

   Administrator, Pat Campbell, in furthering the development of the

   organization and the mission of the Foundation.



Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012



  **RESOLVED**, that the 2012-1st Quarter PSF Community Service Award be
granted to Carl Trachte and Audrey Roy.



Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012



   **RESOLVED**, that the Python Software Foundation adapt the new logo
designed by

   The Phuse as the official PSF logo, once the necessary paperwork has
been completed.



Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012



   **RESOLVED**, that the PSF contracts Dyn Inc. for hosting DNS.



Approved 7-1-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012





Thanks,

Pat






-- 
Pat Campbell
PSF Administrator/Secretary
patcam at python.org
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From cmclaughlin at atlassian.com  Sat Apr 14 22:40:15 2012
From: cmclaughlin at atlassian.com (Charles McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:40:15 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] password prompt and ssl cert problem on
	svn.python.org
In-Reply-To: <CAE-2OCb5E+fWWM75qQos9ZYregmiydsQTEPN2_u6fkCMu5-b4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERD-VZ4K2hbZemWNXumF_b70xX6OzBwYe6Rvp6KzNtCFYHWqg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE-2OCb5E+fWWM75qQos9ZYregmiydsQTEPN2_u6fkCMu5-b4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAERD-VZmBy0Y=9jUpRPGW6+Y_iss4oE0WdnriG581vx2kkcgxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy at tuxmachine.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 02:29, Charles McLaughlin
> <cmclaughlin at atlassian.com> wrote:
>>?Also, there appears to be something wrong with the ssl
>> certificate.
>
> Can you tell us more about the problem?
>
> Seems fine (and unexpired) to me; just using a CA you might not be
> configured to trust.

Fair enough.  I can probably do something like 'svn ls
https://svn.python.org' and accept it permanently.

What about the authentication problem?  Is the svn repo supposed to be
password protected or just read-only?

From yyao at hedgeserv.com  Tue Apr 17 20:11:17 2012
From: yyao at hedgeserv.com (Yuhui Yao)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:11:17 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Accessing site.
References: <8c28f29a821d82f0b9d60a01c143a93c@www.timparkin.co.uk>
	<CAM-+WhjeZ8M0_HPpXjnaVfybqpnfx5ncSs_Eq=PKAM_QgQ+gHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7D49858D-6D0C-496A-A112-AEE04067C0A7@voidspace.org.uk>
	<0A698F88B4630D46A391AE0D51C1818B0142C246@HSE-NYC-MAIL-01.funddevelopmentservices.com>
Message-ID: <C58E3862E80CB94EB47BF8CB9D1AD4898731FD@HSE-NYC-MAIL-01.funddevelopmentservices.com>

Our ip is 208.94.68.0/24

Xs4all has our ip blocked.

C:\Users\yyao>tracert www.python.org

Tracing route to www.python.org [82.94.164.162] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  172.21.14.100
  2    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  172.21.0.61
  3     1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  172.21.0.26
  4    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  208.94.68.3
  5    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  ge-9-1-9.er1.lga5.us.above.net [64.124.201.25]
  6    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  xe-5-1-0.cr1.lga5.us.above.net [64.125.30.205]
  7    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  ge-3-2-0.mpr1.lga5.us.above.net [64.125.29.54]
  8    86 ms    89 ms    86 ms  so-1-0-0.mpr1.ams1.nl.above.net [64.125.27.186]
  9    86 ms    86 ms    86 ms  xe-1-1-0.er1.ams1.nl.above.net [64.125.25.14]
 10     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 11  ^C

-----Original Message-----
From: Stiven Curovic
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:02 PM
To: Yuhui Yao
Subject: FW: Accessing site.



Thanks,
Stiven

Stiven Curovic | HEDGESERV
Office:? 646.829.0361


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Foord [mailto:michael at voidspace.org.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:39 PM
To: Tim Parkin; Stiven Curovic
Cc: webmaster at python.org
Subject: Re: Accessing site.

Hello Tim and Stiven,

There isn't enough information there for us to help. As far as I know we're not blocking any IP ranges *at all* though.

The pydotorg-www mailing list is where this kind of issue is discussed if you're convinced the problem is on our end. I doubt anyone will be able to phone you about it though as we have no paid support staff. If you do email the mailing list please include the output of a traceroute which should show where the problem is:

	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www

All the best,

Michael Foord

On 17 Apr 2012, at 17:27, Tim Parkin wrote:

> I received this from a hosting company... problems with IP address I 
> think
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Stiven Curovic <scurovic at hedgeserv.com>
> Date: 17 April 2012 17:15
> Subject: Accessing site.
> To: info at timparkin.co.uk
> 
> 
> From: Stiven Curovic <scurovic at hedgeserv.com>
> Subject: Accessing site.
> 
> Message Body:
> Hi Tim, I am hoping you can help. I work for HedgeServ and we are 
> experiencing an issue accessing python.org from our internet provider.
> I seems like it will not accept connections from our IP range. I tried 
> from my internet connection at home and was able too. I attempted to 
> contact xs4all but unfortunately do not speak Dutch. If there is any 
> way you can help it will be greatly appreciated. My contact number is 
> 646.829.0361. Thanks Stiven
> 
> --
> This mail is sent via contact form on Portfolio 
> http://gallery.timparkin.co.uk
> 


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From mal at egenix.com  Wed Apr 18 10:53:03 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:53:03 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Board Resolutions from January through February
 2012 Board Meetings - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAFy_4dKn1wFD_3bcsZ7FTmtKCDXAj677ocn-4OOmjsEXi6gkTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dKn1wFD_3bcsZ7FTmtKCDXAj677ocn-4OOmjsEXi6gkTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F8E80EF.2080403@egenix.com>

Hi Pat,

I've added these to the page.

Please note that I'd like you to do these edits yourself. I'll
try to post some instructions on the PSF wiki. Do you already
have an account on the server to access the pages ?

Thanks.

Pat Campbell wrote:
> Hi pydotorg team:
> 
>  
> 
> Could you please add the following board resolutions from
> 
> January through February 2012 board meetings to this web page:
> 
>  
> 
> http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/resolutions/
> <http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/resolutions/>   
> 
>  
> 
> Please see the list of board resolutions to be added below:
> 
> * *
> 
> *January 16, 2012 board meeting*
> 
>  
> 
> **RESOLVED**, that the PSF provide grant funding of AUD$1500 to the
> 
>    PyCon Australia 2012 Conference as a silver level sponsor.
> 
>   
> 
> Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012
> 
>  
> 
>   **RESOLVED**, that the PSF authorize the expenditure of the Atlassian donation of
> 
>    $10,000 with an additional $1500 from the foundation's budget for the purchasing
> 
>    and shipping of servers to replace the existing Python.org/PSF infrastructure.
> 
>    These servers are to be hosted at Oregon State University Open Source Labs.
> 
>   
> 
> Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012
> 
>  
> 
>    **RESOLVED**, that the PSF make a donation to the Oregon State University
> 
>    Foundation for the Oregon State University Open Source Labs in the amount of
> 
>    $3000.
> 
>   
> 
> Approved 7-1-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *February 27 2012 board meeting*
> 
> * *
> 
> **RESOLVED**, that the Foundation spend a maximum of $5715.00 in purchasing a
> 
>    long term storage array for the video archives of past python conferences
> 
>    maintained by Carl Karsten. This array is to be jointly owned by the Python
> 
>    Software Foundation and the Django Software Foundation.
> 
>   
> 
> Approved 7-0-0 by email vote, 04 February 2012
> 
>  
> 
>   **RESOLVED**, that the board repeals the previously passed resolution of June 12, 2006 which
> states "until further notice, the Officers of the Corporation may spend up to
> 
>    USD 500 per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to prompt reporting
> 
>    to the Board, and consistent with the mission statement and requirements of maintaining our
> status as a 501(c)3 non-profit."
> 
>  
> 
>    **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Officers of the Corporation may spend up to USD 250
> per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to prompt reporting to the Board, and
> consistent with the mission statement and requirements of maintaining
> 
> our status as a 501(c)3 non-profit.
> 
>  
> 
>    **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Directors of the Corporation may spend up to USD 500
> per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to prompt reporting to the Board, and
> consistent with the mission statement and requirements of maintaining our status as a 501(c)3
> non-profit.
> 
>  
> 
>    **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Secretary of the Corporation may spend up to USD 250
> per expense without prior Board approval, for expenses needed to undertake its duties as outlined in
> the bylaws, and up to USD 500 per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to prompt
> reporting to the Board, and consistent with the mission statement and requirements of maintaining
> our status as a 501(c)3 non-profit.  
> 
>         
> 
> Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> 
>  
> 
>   **RESOLVED**, that the Board recognizes the efforts expended by its
> 
>    Administrator, Pat Campbell, in furthering the development of the
> 
>    organization and the mission of the Foundation.
> 
>  
> 
> Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> 
>  
> 
>   **RESOLVED**, that the 2012-1st Quarter PSF Community Service Award be granted to Carl Trachte and
> Audrey Roy. 
> 
>  
> 
> Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> 
>  
> 
>    **RESOLVED**, that the Python Software Foundation adapt the new logo designed by
> 
>    The Phuse as the official PSF logo, once the necessary paperwork has been completed.
> 
>   
> 
> Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> 
>  
> 
>    **RESOLVED**, that the PSF contracts Dyn Inc. for hosting DNS.
> 
>   
> 
> Approved 7-1-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Pat  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pat Campbell
> PSF Administrator/Secretary
> patcam at python.org <mailto:patcam at python.org>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Apr 18 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-04-28: PythonCamp 2012, Cologne, Germany              10 days to go

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From patcam at python.org  Wed Apr 18 11:08:19 2012
From: patcam at python.org (Pat Campbell)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 05:08:19 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Board Resolutions from January through February
 2012 Board Meetings - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <4F8E80EF.2080403@egenix.com>
References: <CAFy_4dKn1wFD_3bcsZ7FTmtKCDXAj677ocn-4OOmjsEXi6gkTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F8E80EF.2080403@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAFy_4dL8wLhn7hhnxtUcUKaS7aaQiw=KBqzorTf+5ZikZKi96w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi MAL:

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 4:53 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:

> Hi Pat,
>
> I've added these to the page.
>

Looks good.


> Please note that I'd like you to do these edits yourself.


Sounds great!  Is the wiki page here any different from the
"Board meeting agenda" wiki page?

> I'll
> try to post some instructions on the PSF wiki.


Okay.

Do you already
> have an account on the server to access the pages ?
>

No.

Thanks,
Pat

>
> Thanks.
>
> Pat Campbell wrote:
> > Hi pydotorg team:
> >
> >
> >
> > Could you please add the following board resolutions from
> >
> > January through February 2012 board meetings to this web page:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/resolutions/
> > <http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/resolutions/>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please see the list of board resolutions to be added below:
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *January 16, 2012 board meeting*
> >
> >
> >
> > **RESOLVED**, that the PSF provide grant funding of AUD$1500 to the
> >
> >    PyCon Australia 2012 Conference as a silver level sponsor.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >   **RESOLVED**, that the PSF authorize the expenditure of the Atlassian
> donation of
> >
> >    $10,000 with an additional $1500 from the foundation's budget for the
> purchasing
> >
> >    and shipping of servers to replace the existing Python.org/PSF
> infrastructure.
> >
> >    These servers are to be hosted at Oregon State University Open Source
> Labs.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >    **RESOLVED**, that the PSF make a donation to the Oregon State
> University
> >
> >    Foundation for the Oregon State University Open Source Labs in the
> amount of
> >
> >    $3000.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 7-1-0 by IRC vote, 16 January 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *February 27 2012 board meeting*
> >
> > * *
> >
> > **RESOLVED**, that the Foundation spend a maximum of $5715.00 in
> purchasing a
> >
> >    long term storage array for the video archives of past python
> conferences
> >
> >    maintained by Carl Karsten. This array is to be jointly owned by the
> Python
> >
> >    Software Foundation and the Django Software Foundation.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 7-0-0 by email vote, 04 February 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >   **RESOLVED**, that the board repeals the previously passed resolution
> of June 12, 2006 which
> > states "until further notice, the Officers of the Corporation may spend
> up to
> >
> >    USD 500 per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to
> prompt reporting
> >
> >    to the Board, and consistent with the mission statement and
> requirements of maintaining our
> > status as a 501(c)3 non-profit."
> >
> >
> >
> >    **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Officers of the
> Corporation may spend up to USD 250
> > per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to prompt
> reporting to the Board, and
> > consistent with the mission statement and requirements of maintaining
> >
> > our status as a 501(c)3 non-profit.
> >
> >
> >
> >    **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Directors of the
> Corporation may spend up to USD 500
> > per expense without prior Board approval, but subject to prompt
> reporting to the Board, and
> > consistent with the mission statement and requirements of maintaining
> our status as a 501(c)3
> > non-profit.
> >
> >
> >
> >    **RESOLVED**, that until further notice, the Secretary of the
> Corporation may spend up to USD 250
> > per expense without prior Board approval, for expenses needed to
> undertake its duties as outlined in
> > the bylaws, and up to USD 500 per expense without prior Board approval,
> but subject to prompt
> > reporting to the Board, and consistent with the mission statement and
> requirements of maintaining
> > our status as a 501(c)3 non-profit.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >   **RESOLVED**, that the Board recognizes the efforts expended by its
> >
> >    Administrator, Pat Campbell, in furthering the development of the
> >
> >    organization and the mission of the Foundation.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >   **RESOLVED**, that the 2012-1st Quarter PSF Community Service Award be
> granted to Carl Trachte and
> > Audrey Roy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >    **RESOLVED**, that the Python Software Foundation adapt the new logo
> designed by
> >
> >    The Phuse as the official PSF logo, once the necessary paperwork has
> been completed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 8-0-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >    **RESOLVED**, that the PSF contracts Dyn Inc. for hosting DNS.
> >
> >
> >
> > Approved 7-1-0 by IRC vote, 04 February 2012
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Pat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pat Campbell
> > PSF Administrator/Secretary
> > patcam at python.org <mailto:patcam at python.org>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pydotorg-www mailing list
> > pydotorg-www at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Apr 18 2012)
> >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
> >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 2012-04-28: PythonCamp 2012, Cologne, Germany              10 days to go
>
> ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::
>
>
>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>



-- 
Pat Campbell
PSF Administrator/Secretary
patcam at python.org
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Apr 18 13:10:22 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:10:22 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] password prompt and ssl cert problem
	on	svn.python.org
In-Reply-To: <CAERD-VZ4K2hbZemWNXumF_b70xX6OzBwYe6Rvp6KzNtCFYHWqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERD-VZ4K2hbZemWNXumF_b70xX6OzBwYe6Rvp6KzNtCFYHWqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F8EA11E.4070601@v.loewis.de>

> I run a script that mirrors repos from hg.python.org to Bitbucket that
> recently started choking on Subversion subrepos from svn.python.org.
> I noticed https://svn.python.org/ is password protected which is
> causing my problem, but http://svn.python.org/ is not.  Is the
> password prompt on the https vhost necessary? 

Yes, it is. There is another repository there not available to the
public that needs password protection.

Regards,
Martin

From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Fri Apr 20 00:12:34 2012
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 23:12:34 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
Message-ID: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>

Hey all,

What is the license of the python.org website content? The website has a copyright message but no license. We have a request on the webmaster alias for permission to distribute the website "to people lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library".

That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes of redistribution, are not clear.

All the best,

Michael Foord

--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Apr 20 00:54:26 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (martin at v.loewis.de)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 00:54:26 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
In-Reply-To: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>


Zitat von Michael Foord <michael at voidspace.org.uk>:

> Hey all,
>
> What is the license of the python.org website content? The website  
> has a copyright message but no license. We have a request on the  
> webmaster alias for permission to distribute the website "to people  
> lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library".
>
> That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes  
> of redistribution, are not clear.

We could ask a lawyer for a recommendation, but my personal feeling
is that copying the entire website is not ok. Many people have contributed
to it, in particular to the wiki and the mailing list archives, and many
might be assuming that their content will only appear on python.org.

Certain parts of it are meant for redistribution; those should typically
also have an explicit license with them (I'm thinking about the documentation
in particular).

If this position is agreeable, it would then be possible, but very tedious,
to go through the website and indicate what pages can be redistributed
and which one cannot. So unless somebody volunteers for this, the natural
consequence would be "if there is no explicit permission given to make
copies, one may not make copies".

Regards,
Martin



From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri Apr 20 10:23:33 2012
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:23:33 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
In-Reply-To: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xJ_h3wpaxPC-o=QrRc8yRJmikwn4EaooOX+EKDhmP8=tA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 1:12 AM, Michael Foord <michael at voidspace.org.uk> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> What is the license of the python.org website content? The website has a copyright message but no license. We have a request on the webmaster alias for permission to distribute the website "to people lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library".
>
> That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes of redistribution, are not clear.

According to the site footer, the owner is PSF, so PSF is free to
grant anything to anybody.
--
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri Apr 20 10:35:56 2012
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:35:56 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
In-Reply-To: <20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xLGogdGX3J1G=CTWwm=A6Tv+SVKbYRyj_n8+rOSUXPOGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 1:54 AM,  <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>
> We could ask a lawyer for a recommendation, but my personal feeling
> is that copying the entire website is not ok. Many people have contributed
> to it, in particular to the wiki and the mailing list archives, and many
> might be assuming that their content will only appear on python.org.

Then they must sue gmane, nabble and other public sites. Common - this
information is public and if people maintain the copyright notice - it
doesn't matter where this information is located. Can you be more
specific about what can be "not ok" with copying web site for offline
use?

> Certain parts of it are meant for redistribution; those should typically
> also have an explicit license with them (I'm thinking about the
> documentation
> in particular).

There is no explicit license for documentation. It is covered by
Python license agreement.
http://docs.python.org/license.html

> If this position is agreeable, it would then be possible, but very tedious,
> to go through the website and indicate what pages can be redistributed
> and which one cannot.

The position is disputable.

> So unless somebody volunteers for this, the natural
> consequence would be "if there is no explicit permission given to make
> copies, one may not make copies".

I guess without site structure or sitemap, going through all the pages
doesn't guarantee that all content is covered. This in turn, raises
the question - if full sitemap can be generated with current
implementation of web-site backend?
--
anatoly t.

From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Fri Apr 20 13:21:58 2012
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:21:58 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
In-Reply-To: <20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
Message-ID: <C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>


On 19 Apr 2012, at 23:54, martin at v.loewis.de wrote:

> 
> Zitat von Michael Foord <michael at voidspace.org.uk>:
> 
>> Hey all,
>> 
>> What is the license of the python.org website content? The website has a copyright message but no license. We have a request on the webmaster alias for permission to distribute the website "to people lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library".
>> 
>> That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes of redistribution, are not clear.
> 
> We could ask a lawyer for a recommendation, but my personal feeling
> is that copying the entire website is not ok. Many people have contributed
> to it, in particular to the wiki and the mailing list archives, and many
> might be assuming that their content will only appear on python.org.
> 
> Certain parts of it are meant for redistribution; those should typically
> also have an explicit license with them (I'm thinking about the documentation
> in particular).
> 
> If this position is agreeable, it would then be possible, but very tedious,
> to go through the website and indicate what pages can be redistributed
> and which one cannot. So unless somebody volunteers for this, the natural
> consequence would be "if there is no explicit permission given to make
> copies, one may not make copies".

I think unfortunately you are correct. The non-profit in question looks like they are providing a potentially valuable service - so it would be *nice* to be able to license at least the core parts of the website for redistribution, but it seems like it may be an onerous task.

The core parts of the website that are in our SVN repository, and built by our build scripts, we probably have full licensing control over. So it may be possible to explicitly license those parts for redistribution. The PSF would have to make a decision on this though.

All the best,

Michael


> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> 


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From stefan at drees.name  Fri Apr 20 16:03:06 2012
From: stefan at drees.name (Stefan Drees)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:03:06 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
In-Reply-To: <C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>

Hello dear pythonic list members,

although mirroring of the python website is not "needed" anymore,
no one ever told the various contributors, that this is now a guaranteed 
"feature".

So I think, if someone offers "the internet in a box" for institutions 
in countries, where access to the internet is close to impossible, then 
I do not see any differenence to mirroring (just a systemeatically 
outdated mirror).

All the best,
Stefan.
Am 20.04.12 13:21, schrieb Michael Foord:
>
> On 19 Apr 2012, at 23:54, martin at v.loewis.de wrote:
>
>>
>> Zitat von Michael Foord<michael at voidspace.org.uk>:
>>
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> What is the license of the python.org website content? The website has a copyright message but no license. We have a request on the webmaster alias for permission to distribute the website "to people lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library".
>>>
>>> That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes of redistribution, are not clear.
>>
>> We could ask a lawyer for a recommendation, but my personal feeling
>> is that copying the entire website is not ok. Many people have contributed
>> to it, in particular to the wiki and the mailing list archives, and many
>> might be assuming that their content will only appear on python.org.
>>
>> Certain parts of it are meant for redistribution; those should typically
>> also have an explicit license with them (I'm thinking about the documentation
>> in particular).
>>
>> If this position is agreeable, it would then be possible, but very tedious,
>> to go through the website and indicate what pages can be redistributed
>> and which one cannot. So unless somebody volunteers for this, the natural
>> consequence would be "if there is no explicit permission given to make
>> copies, one may not make copies".
>
> I think unfortunately you are correct. The non-profit in question looks like they are providing a potentially valuable service - so it would be *nice* to be able to license at least the core parts of the website for redistribution, but it seems like it may be an onerous task.
>
> The core parts of the website that are in our SVN repository, and built by our build scripts, we probably have full licensing control over. So it may be possible to explicitly license those parts for redistribution. The PSF would have to make a decision on this though.
>
> All the best,
>
> Michael
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>
>
>
> --
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>
>
> May you do good and not evil
> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
> -- the sqlite blessing
> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www


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From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Fri Apr 20 16:28:28 2012
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:28:28 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
In-Reply-To: <4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
Message-ID: <B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>


On 20 Apr 2012, at 15:03, Stefan Drees wrote:

> Hello dear pythonic list members,
> 
> although mirroring of the python website is not "needed" anymore,
> no one ever told the various contributors, that this is now a guaranteed "feature".
> 
> So I think, if someone offers "the internet in a box" for institutions in countries, where access to the internet is close to impossible, then I do not see any differenence to mirroring (just a systemeatically outdated mirror).
> 


The issue is that the PSF doesn't (necessarily) have the *right* to permit mirroring of the wiki - as no license to the PSF was ever required for contributions. For the main site the content is clearly marked as copyright the PSF (even if we didn't explicitly get contributors to license their contributions to the PSF as we do for code contributions). 

So for the wiki at least, and potentially for the rest of the site too, we aren't in a position to formally agree to mirroring (or other forms of redistribution) even if we really *want* people to be able to do this (which I think we do). As we are being asked for formal permission we have to give a formal answer.

All IMO and I'm very happy to be overruled.

Michael Foord

> All the best,
> Stefan.
> Am 20.04.12 13:21, schrieb Michael Foord:
>> 
>> On 19 Apr 2012, at 23:54, martin at v.loewis.de wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Zitat von Michael Foord<michael at voidspace.org.uk>:
>>> 
>>>> Hey all,
>>>> 
>>>> What is the license of the python.org website content? The website has a copyright message but no license. We have a request on the webmaster alias for permission to distribute the website "to people lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library".
>>>> 
>>>> That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes of redistribution, are not clear.
>>> 
>>> We could ask a lawyer for a recommendation, but my personal feeling
>>> is that copying the entire website is not ok. Many people have contributed
>>> to it, in particular to the wiki and the mailing list archives, and many
>>> might be assuming that their content will only appear on python.org.
>>> 
>>> Certain parts of it are meant for redistribution; those should typically
>>> also have an explicit license with them (I'm thinking about the documentation
>>> in particular).
>>> 
>>> If this position is agreeable, it would then be possible, but very tedious,
>>> to go through the website and indicate what pages can be redistributed
>>> and which one cannot. So unless somebody volunteers for this, the natural
>>> consequence would be "if there is no explicit permission given to make
>>> copies, one may not make copies".
>> 
>> I think unfortunately you are correct. The non-profit in question looks like they are providing a potentially valuable service - so it would be *nice* to be able to license at least the core parts of the website for redistribution, but it seems like it may be an onerous task.
>> 
>> The core parts of the website that are in our SVN repository, and built by our build scripts, we probably have full licensing control over. So it may be possible to explicitly license those parts for redistribution. The PSF would have to make a decision on this though.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Michael
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>> 
>> 
>> May you do good and not evil
>> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
>> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
>> -- the sqlite blessing
>> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> 
> 


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From steve at holdenweb.com  Fri Apr 20 16:45:37 2012
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 10:45:37 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>

I hadn't considered the Wiki. Yet another reason to hate them, I guess.

Moin, by the way, appears to (again ...) be running like a dog. Is there anything we can do about this?

regards
 Steve

On Apr 20, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Michael Foord wrote:

> So for the wiki at least, and potentially for the rest of the site too, we aren't in a position to formally agree to mirroring (or other forms of redistribution) even if we really *want* people to be able to do this (which I think we do). As we are being asked for formal permission we have to give a formal answer.
> 
> All IMO and I'm very happy to be overruled.
> 

-- 
Steve Holden steve at holdenweb.com,  Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/



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From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Fri Apr 20 16:53:18 2012
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:53:18 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <2F5D6478-2D6A-42F6-8B77-B4F639CA2144@voidspace.org.uk>


On 20 Apr 2012, at 15:45, Steve Holden wrote:

> I hadn't considered the Wiki. Yet another reason to hate them, I guess.

This non-profit would accept PARTIAL PERMISSION as an answer. Ok for me to grant them permission to mirror for offline use, except for the wiki?

I dislike excessive lawyering and I don't think there is *any* danger of any contributors suing us (or even complaining) over the main site being mirrored in this way.

Michael

> 
> Moin, by the way, appears to (again ...) be running like a dog. Is there anything we can do about this?
> 
> regards
>  Steve
> 
> On Apr 20, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Michael Foord wrote:
> 
>> So for the wiki at least, and potentially for the rest of the site too, we aren't in a position to formally agree to mirroring (or other forms of redistribution) even if we really *want* people to be able to do this (which I think we do). As we are being asked for formal permission we have to give a formal answer.
>> 
>> All IMO and I'm very happy to be overruled.
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve Holden steve at holdenweb.com,  Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
> Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
> 
> 
> 


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Apr 20 16:56:55 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:56:55 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4F917937.7030409@v.loewis.de>

Am 20.04.2012 16:45, schrieb Steve Holden:
> I hadn't considered the Wiki. Yet another reason to hate them, I guess.
> 
> Moin, by the way, appears to (again ...) be running like a dog. Is there
> anything we can do about this?

[this exclusive "we" again]

Diagnose this further, and then fix the problem, I guess. Needs some
volunteer to do so. Radomir?

Alternatively, buy new hardware, and migrate all services to it. Also
needs some volunteer. Noah is working on it.

Regards,
Martin

From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Apr 20 17:11:01 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:11:01 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <2F5D6478-2D6A-42F6-8B77-B4F639CA2144@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>
	<2F5D6478-2D6A-42F6-8B77-B4F639CA2144@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4F917C85.5000204@v.loewis.de>

Am 20.04.2012 16:53, schrieb Michael Foord:
> 
> On 20 Apr 2012, at 15:45, Steve Holden wrote:
> 
>> I hadn't considered the Wiki. Yet another reason to hate them, I
>> guess.
> 
> This non-profit would accept PARTIAL PERMISSION as an answer. Ok for
> me to grant them permission to mirror for offline use, except for the
> wiki?

Grant away!

Regards,
Martin

From michael at python.org  Fri Apr 20 17:26:56 2012
From: michael at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:26:56 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Nonprofit Academic Permission Request
	::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
Message-ID: <3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>

Hello Kristen,

After discussion with the PSF, we can grant you PARTIAL PERMISSION.

You may mirror / redistribute (without modification) the main python.org website, except for the wiki.

The wiki is anything on, or under, the url: http://wiki.python.org/moin/

All the best,

Michael Foord

On 19 Apr 2012, at 22:08, Kristen Tammen wrote:

> Dear Python:
> 
> The WiderNet Project seeks your permission to distribute "Python Programming Language -- Official Website", published at http://python.org, to people lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library.
> 
> Please let us tell you about the WiderNet Project and the eGranary Digital Library.
> 
> The WiderNet Project is non-profit service program in the School of Library and Information Science at the University of Iowa that promotes low-cost information and communication for underserved populations. You can find more information about the WiderNet Project at...
> http://www.widernet.org
> The eGranary Digital Library, also known as "The Internet in a Box", is an off-line information store that delivers over 14 million educational resources to people living in underserved areas of the world. Many of our subscriber institutions have no Internet access. Even those who have an Internet connection experience slow, unreliable and very expensive service. Often, teachers, students, and practitioners must pay per minute while online and it literally takes days to search a website. The eGranary Digital Library delivers digital information directly to Web servers inside the institution, bypassing the problem. With the eGranary Digital Library, thousands of people can access the information over their local area networks quickly and at no cost. The eGranary is already installed at over 450 universities, schools, health care centers, and libraries worldwide. You can find more information about the eGranary Digital Library, including a list of over 1,000 authors and organizations who have already donated materials, at... 
> http://www.widernet.org/egranary
> If you consent, your materials will appear in the eGranary Digital Library without modification, retaining all citations, copyright information, author information, and credits - exactly as they appear on the Internet now.
> 
> Specifically, we would like permission to:
> 
> -- Mirror (copy) the following materials for future versions of the eGranary Digital Library:
> 
> http://python.org
> 
> -- Distribute the content you donate to participating educational institutions via off-line storage devices.
> 
> -- Allow project participants to make your materials available to their community via their local intranets (but not on the Internet).
> 
> -- Create an archive copy of your material on our password-protected intranet server for use in the event that your publicly-available link ceases to function.
> 
> Please reply directly to this email, and tell us if you give:
> 
> FULL PERMISSION (Donate requested materials and updates as they become available).
> 
> PARTIAL PERMISSION (Donate only materials that you specify).
> 
> NO PERMISSION (Prefer not to participate at this time).
> 
> We hope that you will join our efforts to provide poor people around the world with access to educational information and resources.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Kristen Tammen
> 
> ----------------------
> ____________________________________________________
> 
> 
> Kristen Tammen
> Digital Librarian
> ktammen at widernet.org
> The WiderNet Project
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> ::wpmc::10-17250


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From fwierzbicki at gmail.com  Fri Apr 20 17:49:37 2012
From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (fwierzbicki at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:49:37 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
Message-ID: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

While helping a new contributor get his contributor agreement signed,
I noticed that some browsers are splitting the PSF contributor
agreement into two pages, which creates an annoying experience for
signing a form. It seems to vary across OSes and browsers -- at least
chrome and firefox on my mac have the problem (including from an
Ubuntu VM) and safari was no good either.

I managed to get a one page version by using an older version of
chrome on a mac desktop by messing with the margins. I wonder if we
should include a pdf version of the contributor agreement just to be
sure that contributors can get a consistant form? Or else maybe
someone with mad css skills can fix the html version :) ?

I can supply more precise details on the browser/OS/hardware versions
if that will help.

-Frank

From fwierzbicki at gmail.com  Fri Apr 20 17:50:43 2012
From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (fwierzbicki at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:50:43 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADrh4zLMKe8L6c_xVq2zJa1X-DDPFJDdeAhZ=Ez2rt63qrNcZg@mail.gmail.com>

Oops I failed to include the url:

http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/

From fwierzbicki at gmail.com  Fri Apr 20 17:52:55 2012
From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (fwierzbicki at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:52:55 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <CADrh4zLMKe8L6c_xVq2zJa1X-DDPFJDdeAhZ=Ez2rt63qrNcZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADrh4zLMKe8L6c_xVq2zJa1X-DDPFJDdeAhZ=Ez2rt63qrNcZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADrh4z+t9mgWWPO6dTCS5MegpQH0xnAd7aiuAYf7055uGh8N4Q@mail.gmail.com>

And in case it wasn't obvious I meant that this happens when trying to
print the contributor agreement.

Sorry to spread this across three emails - I should proofread a little
harder before hitting "send".

-Frank

From sheep at sheep.art.pl  Fri Apr 20 17:53:30 2012
From: sheep at sheep.art.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:53:30 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] License of website
In-Reply-To: <4F917937.7030409@v.loewis.de>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>
	<4F917937.7030409@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <CAJ2VPS05gk4DKBzUwope05ycRibrzNPXZ-f9MBzex54Z+wPRjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 16:56, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
> Am 20.04.2012 16:45, schrieb Steve Holden:
>> I hadn't considered the Wiki. Yet another reason to hate them, I guess.
>>
>> Moin, by the way, appears to (again ...) be running like a dog. Is there
>> anything we can do about this?
>
> [this exclusive "we" again]
>
> Diagnose this further, and then fix the problem, I guess. Needs some
> volunteer to do so. Radomir?

I truncated the event-log (original left as event-log.2012-04-20 just
in case). It grew to 11GB.
I will look into adding a logrotate script for it to cron.

-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

From steve at holdenweb.com  Fri Apr 20 17:59:28 2012
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:59:28 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] License of website
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2VPS05gk4DKBzUwope05ycRibrzNPXZ-f9MBzex54Z+wPRjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<009B100A-636E-4F57-AB24-D857EE8F64FA@holdenweb.com>
	<4F917937.7030409@v.loewis.de>
	<CAJ2VPS05gk4DKBzUwope05ycRibrzNPXZ-f9MBzex54Z+wPRjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C07D4796-8937-4E46-AD2A-D9BE4F81BCEA@holdenweb.com>

On Apr 20, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 16:56, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> Am 20.04.2012 16:45, schrieb Steve Holden:
>>> I hadn't considered the Wiki. Yet another reason to hate them, I guess.
>>> 
>>> Moin, by the way, appears to (again ...) be running like a dog. Is there
>>> anything we can do about this?
>> 
>> [this exclusive "we" again]
>> 
>> Diagnose this further, and then fix the problem, I guess. Needs some
>> volunteer to do so. Radomir?
> 
> I truncated the event-log (original left as event-log.2012-04-20 just
> in case). It grew to 11GB.
> I will look into adding a logrotate script for it to cron.
> 

Thanks very much, Radomir.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden steve at holdenweb.com,  Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/




From guido at python.org  Fri Apr 20 18:20:18 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 09:20:18 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] Nonprofit Academic Permission
	Request ::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the quick resolution, Michael!

I'm glad that we at least give permission for the python.org pages
propery, which all contain a PSF Copyright notice.

I'd like to propose an action item to look into making the Wiki
contents copyrighted by the PSF or implicitly licensed to the PSF as
well, so in the future we can give a full license to the entire site.
The request today shows the value of such a license. I also wonder if
there isn't a way we can consider the wiki contents *as a whole* as a
collection, which appears to be separately copyrightable (IIRC
there've been suits about collections of materials where the
comprising pieces were not copyrightable -- but IANAL and I don't know
if this is possible).

--Guido

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Michael Foord <michael at python.org> wrote:
> Hello Kristen,
>
> After discussion with the PSF, we can grant you PARTIAL PERMISSION.
>
> You may mirror / redistribute (without modification) the main python.org website, except for the wiki.
>
> The wiki is anything on, or under, the url: http://wiki.python.org/moin/
>
> All the best,
>
> Michael Foord
>
> On 19 Apr 2012, at 22:08, Kristen Tammen wrote:
>
>> Dear Python:
>>
>> The WiderNet Project seeks your permission to distribute "Python Programming Language -- Official Website", published at http://python.org, to people lacking Internet access via the eGranary Digital Library.
>>
>> Please let us tell you about the WiderNet Project and the eGranary Digital Library.
>>
>> The WiderNet Project is non-profit service program in the School of Library and Information Science at the University of Iowa that promotes low-cost information and communication for underserved populations. You can find more information about the WiderNet Project at...
>> http://www.widernet.org
>> The eGranary Digital Library, also known as "The Internet in a Box", is an off-line information store that delivers over 14 million educational resources to people living in underserved areas of the world. Many of our subscriber institutions have no Internet access. Even those who have an Internet connection experience slow, unreliable and very expensive service. Often, teachers, students, and practitioners must pay per minute while online and it literally takes days to search a website. The eGranary Digital Library delivers digital information directly to Web servers inside the institution, bypassing the problem. With the eGranary Digital Library, thousands of people can access the information over their local area networks quickly and at no cost. The eGranary is already installed at over 450 universities, schools, health care centers, and libraries worldwide. You can find more information about the eGranary Digital Library, including a list of over 1,000 authors and organizations
> ?who have already donated materials, at...
>> http://www.widernet.org/egranary
>> If you consent, your materials will appear in the eGranary Digital Library without modification, retaining all citations, copyright information, author information, and credits - exactly as they appear on the Internet now.
>>
>> Specifically, we would like permission to:
>>
>> -- Mirror (copy) the following materials for future versions of the eGranary Digital Library:
>>
>> http://python.org
>>
>> -- Distribute the content you donate to participating educational institutions via off-line storage devices.
>>
>> -- Allow project participants to make your materials available to their community via their local intranets (but not on the Internet).
>>
>> -- Create an archive copy of your material on our password-protected intranet server for use in the event that your publicly-available link ceases to function.
>>
>> Please reply directly to this email, and tell us if you give:
>>
>> FULL PERMISSION (Donate requested materials and updates as they become available).
>>
>> PARTIAL PERMISSION (Donate only materials that you specify).
>>
>> NO PERMISSION (Prefer not to participate at this time).
>>
>> We hope that you will join our efforts to provide poor people around the world with access to educational information and resources.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Kristen Tammen
>>
>> ----------------------
>> ____________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Kristen Tammen
>> Digital Librarian
>> ktammen at widernet.org
>> The WiderNet Project
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________________________
>> ::wpmc::10-17250
>
>
> --
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>
>
> May you do good and not evil
> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
> -- the sqlite blessing
> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PSF-Board mailing list
> PSF-Board at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-board



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Apr 20 18:36:04 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:36:04 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] Nonprofit Academic Permission
	Request	::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>

> I'd like to propose an action item to look into making the Wiki
> contents copyrighted by the PSF or implicitly licensed to the PSF as
> well, so in the future we can give a full license to the entire site.
> The request today shows the value of such a license. I also wonder if
> there isn't a way we can consider the wiki contents *as a whole* as a
> collection, which appears to be separately copyrightable (IIRC
> there've been suits about collections of materials where the
> comprising pieces were not copyrightable -- but IANAL and I don't know
> if this is possible).

I think this really is lawyer's land.

In the future, we may hint potential copiers that it may be easier to
ask for forgiveness than for permission. I doubt any contributor would
go after somebody making a mirror or an offline copy. But as for giving
permission: here I really hesitate without a lawyer telling me that I
can give such permission.

Regards,
Martin

From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Apr 20 19:00:35 2012
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:00:35 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] License of website
In-Reply-To: <B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>

Will someone confirm this hunch: In general, we want to figure out how to
allow the content to be distributed without negative consequences.

What are the possible negative consequences?

I agree that no one is going to cause a fuss about their content being
distributed as described.   Except for us, who love to fuss on behalf of
others, even if the total number of others is 0.

Could someone say "the PSF does not have an opinion, use your good judgment
and hope for the best."   That seems as true as "The PSF says don't do it,
but they probably wont call the police if you ignore them."


On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Michael Foord <michael at voidspace.org.uk>wrote:

>
> On 20 Apr 2012, at 15:03, Stefan Drees wrote:
>
> > Hello dear pythonic list members,
> >
> > although mirroring of the python website is not "needed" anymore,
> > no one ever told the various contributors, that this is now a guaranteed
> "feature".
> >
> > So I think, if someone offers "the internet in a box" for institutions
> in countries, where access to the internet is close to impossible, then I
> do not see any differenence to mirroring (just a systemeatically outdated
> mirror).
> >
>
>
> The issue is that the PSF doesn't (necessarily) have the *right* to permit
> mirroring of the wiki - as no license to the PSF was ever required for
> contributions. For the main site the content is clearly marked as copyright
> the PSF (even if we didn't explicitly get contributors to license their
> contributions to the PSF as we do for code contributions).
>
> So for the wiki at least, and potentially for the rest of the site too, we
> aren't in a position to formally agree to mirroring (or other forms of
> redistribution) even if we really *want* people to be able to do this
> (which I think we do). As we are being asked for formal permission we have
> to give a formal answer.
>
> All IMO and I'm very happy to be overruled.
>
> Michael Foord
>
> > All the best,
> > Stefan.
> > Am 20.04.12 13:21, schrieb Michael Foord:
> >>
> >> On 19 Apr 2012, at 23:54, martin at v.loewis.de wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Zitat von Michael Foord<michael at voidspace.org.uk>:
> >>>
> >>>> Hey all,
> >>>>
> >>>> What is the license of the python.org website content? The website
> has a copyright message but no license. We have a request on the webmaster
> alias for permission to distribute the website "to people lacking Internet
> access via the eGranary Digital Library".
> >>>>
> >>>> That sounds fine, but the license terms of the website, for purposes
> of redistribution, are not clear.
> >>>
> >>> We could ask a lawyer for a recommendation, but my personal feeling
> >>> is that copying the entire website is not ok. Many people have
> contributed
> >>> to it, in particular to the wiki and the mailing list archives, and
> many
> >>> might be assuming that their content will only appear on python.org.
> >>>
> >>> Certain parts of it are meant for redistribution; those should
> typically
> >>> also have an explicit license with them (I'm thinking about the
> documentation
> >>> in particular).
> >>>
> >>> If this position is agreeable, it would then be possible, but very
> tedious,
> >>> to go through the website and indicate what pages can be redistributed
> >>> and which one cannot. So unless somebody volunteers for this, the
> natural
> >>> consequence would be "if there is no explicit permission given to make
> >>> copies, one may not make copies".
> >>
> >> I think unfortunately you are correct. The non-profit in question looks
> like they are providing a potentially valuable service - so it would be
> *nice* to be able to license at least the core parts of the website for
> redistribution, but it seems like it may be an onerous task.
> >>
> >> The core parts of the website that are in our SVN repository, and built
> by our build scripts, we probably have full licensing control over. So it
> may be possible to explicitly license those parts for redistribution. The
> PSF would have to make a decision on this though.
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> pydotorg-www mailing list
> >>> pydotorg-www at python.org
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
> >>
> >>
> >> May you do good and not evil
> >> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
> >> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
> >> -- the sqlite blessing
> >> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> pydotorg-www mailing list
> >> pydotorg-www at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>
>
> May you do good and not evil
> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
> -- the sqlite blessing
> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>



-- 
Carl K
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From guido at python.org  Fri Apr 20 19:18:51 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 10:18:51 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] Nonprofit Academic Permission
	Request ::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJL-heVCQw+qAqdz_Q=ABUf02P2Py9o-XZK+t37d_Nq8eA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:36 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> I'd like to propose an action item to look into making the Wiki
>> contents copyrighted by the PSF or implicitly licensed to the PSF as
>> well, so in the future we can give a full license to the entire site.
>> The request today shows the value of such a license. I also wonder if
>> there isn't a way we can consider the wiki contents *as a whole* as a
>> collection, which appears to be separately copyrightable (IIRC
>> there've been suits about collections of materials where the
>> comprising pieces were not copyrightable -- but IANAL and I don't know
>> if this is possible).
>
> I think this really is lawyer's land.
>
> In the future, we may hint potential copiers that it may be easier to
> ask for forgiveness than for permission. I doubt any contributor would
> go after somebody making a mirror or an offline copy. But as for giving
> permission: here I really hesitate without a lawyer telling me that I
> can give such permission.

Agreed. But getting a lawyer to explain the situation to us is still a
"project". (And one that I am not personally going to take on. I hit
my lawyer quota in 2001.)

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From steve at holdenweb.com  Fri Apr 20 19:21:11 2012
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:21:11 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>

I think that would be about the worst possible approach. WEll, no, I could think of worse, but we can't tell people to ignore potential copyright issues on content we publish in our wiki. We simply don't have that right.

S

On Apr 20, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:

> Could someone say "the PSF does not have an opinion, use your good judgment and hope for the best."   That seems as true as "The PSF says don't do it, but they probably wont call the police if you ignore them."
> 

-- 
Steve Holden steve at holdenweb.com,  Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/



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From sheep at sheep.art.pl  Fri Apr 20 19:21:39 2012
From: sheep at sheep.art.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:21:39 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] Nonprofit Academic Permission
	Request ::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <CAJ2VPS3Qks78WiKKJdD87Meuana9Ks3ZP0NEXevxP5G++tpExw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 18:36, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> I'd like to propose an action item to look into making the Wiki
>> contents copyrighted by the PSF or implicitly licensed to the PSF as
>> well, so in the future we can give a full license to the entire site.
>> The request today shows the value of such a license. I also wonder if
>> there isn't a way we can consider the wiki contents *as a whole* as a
>> collection, which appears to be separately copyrightable (IIRC
>> there've been suits about collections of materials where the
>> comprising pieces were not copyrightable -- but IANAL and I don't know
>> if this is possible).
>
> I think this really is lawyer's land.
>
> In the future, we may hint potential copiers that it may be easier to
> ask for forgiveness than for permission. I doubt any contributor would
> go after somebody making a mirror or an offline copy. But as for giving
> permission: here I really hesitate without a lawyer telling me that I
> can give such permission.

IANAL, but as far as I know, copyright infringement is prosecuted only
at the request of the injured party. So as long as you don't plan to
sue them, they should be fine...

-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

From jeremy at tuxmachine.com  Fri Apr 20 19:31:43 2012
From: jeremy at tuxmachine.com (Jeremy Baron)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:31:43 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] Nonprofit Academic Permission
	Request ::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2VPS3Qks78WiKKJdD87Meuana9Ks3ZP0NEXevxP5G++tpExw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
	<CAJ2VPS3Qks78WiKKJdD87Meuana9Ks3ZP0NEXevxP5G++tpExw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE-2OCZQPOoSq8pnFwkC6WmLQii1Uhsw28u_W3YTFuSTZSP9Rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 13:21, Radomir Dopieralski <sheep at sheep.art.pl> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 18:36, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> In the future, we may hint potential copiers that it may be easier to
>> ask for forgiveness than for permission. I doubt any contributor would
>> go after somebody making a mirror or an offline copy. But as for giving
>> permission: here I really hesitate without a lawyer telling me that I
>> can give such permission.
>
> IANAL, but as far as I know, copyright infringement is prosecuted only
> at the request of the injured party. So as long as you don't plan to
> sue them, they should be fine...

I think the concern was that there might be more than a few copyright
holders with unclear (or at least not obvious to someone new to the
site) records about who holds the copyright for which pieces. That
combined with the lack of a license or copyright grant (but IDK for
sure that one doesn't exist, just guessing from the thread) means
there's a lot (potential) of copyright holders to worry about. Even if
only using a part of the site or a part of the wiki.

A single copyright holder or a small group of them saying they won't
sue just applies to whoever said it (not to mention whether it's
binding); the total number of copyright holders could be far larger
than the group that made a statement.

-Jeremy

From mertz at gnosis.cx  Fri Apr 20 20:01:12 2012
From: mertz at gnosis.cx (David Mertz)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:01:12 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] Nonprofit Academic Permission
	Request ::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJL-heVCQw+qAqdz_Q=ABUf02P2Py9o-XZK+t37d_Nq8eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
	<CAP7+vJL-heVCQw+qAqdz_Q=ABUf02P2Py9o-XZK+t37d_Nq8eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98BAA077-E931-4DC9-BBA6-5F55F0AE484D@gnosis.cx>

A Collection Copyright cannot authorize copying on component material that does not itself have permission for copying.  So indeed, the PSF may be able to assert additional copyright interest in the Wiki as an aggregation, but even if we did so it would not thereby give us control to authorize use of any page within it; we could only *prohibit* copying of the collection as a whole (i.e. even if someone had permission for each component page).

Copyright law is really messed up, and it's always about having fewer rights, never about gaining more. Among other flaws, this often creates "orphan works" with no identifiable owner, which are thereby impossible to use by *anyone*. :-( 

That said, I really do think the slightly wink-and-nudge approach is the thing to do.  As Carl Karsten phrases it in a different thread: "the PSF does not have an opinion, use your good judgment and hope for the best." 

On Apr 20, 2012, at 10:18 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 9:36 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>>> I'd like to propose an action item to look into making the Wiki
>>> contents copyrighted by the PSF or implicitly licensed to the PSF as
>>> well, so in the future we can give a full license to the entire site.
>>> The request today shows the value of such a license. I also wonder if
>>> there isn't a way we can consider the wiki contents *as a whole* as a
>>> collection, which appears to be separately copyrightable (IIRC
>>> there've been suits about collections of materials where the
>>> comprising pieces were not copyrightable -- but IANAL and I don't know
>>> if this is possible).
>> 
>> I think this really is lawyer's land.
>> 
>> In the future, we may hint potential copiers that it may be easier to
>> ask for forgiveness than for permission. I doubt any contributor would
>> go after somebody making a mirror or an offline copy. But as for giving
>> permission: here I really hesitate without a lawyer telling me that I
>> can give such permission.
> 
> Agreed. But getting a lawyer to explain the situation to us is still a
> "project". (And one that I am not personally going to take on. I hit
> my lawyer quota in 2001.)
> 
> -- 
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> _______________________________________________
> PSF-Board mailing list
> PSF-Board at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-board

--
---[ to our friends at TLAs (spread the word) ]-----------------------
Iran nuclear neocon POTUS patriot Pakistan weaponized uranium invasion
smallpox Gitmo Castro Tikrit armed revolution Carnivore al-Qaeda sarin
---[ Gnosis Software ("We know stuff") <mertz at gnosis.cx> ]------------


From jeremy at tuxmachine.com  Fri Apr 20 20:25:10 2012
From: jeremy at tuxmachine.com (Jeremy Baron)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 14:25:10 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Nonprofit Academic Permission Request
	::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <CAE-2OCYgiX8tOzQRGu7A1-f2X9naDerCOB=22_yVY+U=+6rexQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:36, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
> Guido says:
>> I'd like to propose an action item to look into making the Wiki
>> contents copyrighted by the PSF or implicitly licensed to the PSF as
>> well, so in the future we can give a full license to the entire site.
>> The request today shows the value of such a license. I also wonder if
>> there isn't a way we can consider the wiki contents *as a whole* as a
>> collection, which appears to be separately copyrightable (IIRC
>> there've been suits about collections of materials where the
>> comprising pieces were not copyrightable -- but IANAL and I don't know
>> if this is possible).
>
> I think this really is lawyer's land.

+1 to the value of the request that triggered the discussion and to the goal of
making it possible to give a confident and comprehensive answer in the future.
(and without having to think so much about it next time)

Sorry for making this so long. I tried to put unrelated things in separate
paragraphs. (so, e.g. you could skip parts that mention mailing lists and all
you would miss is the mailing lists)

It sounds like you're talking about database rights. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_rights (for the general question) and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications_v._Rural_Telephone_Service
(for the US in particular). DB rights were created in the EU by EU directive
and it seems were ruled unconstitutional in the US by the supreme court. At
least in the EU, DB rights are a separate right from copyright and not a part
of copyright.

IAANAL (I am also not a lawyer) and neither is Wikipedia. I also haven't (yet)
made any significant contributions to either python in general or to the
copyrighted works in question. So, I don't expect my opinion to carry too much
weight in this discussion/decision but here goes anyway:
IMO, any actions (e.g. enforcement) or licenses for these works should be based
solely on trademark and copyright law and not rely on DB rights. DB rights
should not be enforced and a liberal license should be granted to downstream
reusers. (e.g. royalty free, transferrable, irrevocable, forever. essentially
do whatever you want with it)

My personal opinion (i.e. without really knowing anything about how the PSF
works) is that the websites should as a general rule be available with content
released as PD/CC-0 or licensed under CC-BY or CC-BY-SA and code released as
PD/CC-0 or licensed under one of the Python License, GPL, or AGPL. Content can
also be licensed the same way the code is licensed. (but as an addition not a
replacement. so content could be dual licensed CC-BY-SA+Python License but not
just the Python License)

<mailing list archives tangent>
  There are of course exceptions like the mailing lists archives. I can think
  of only 1 way to make list archives have a common license for an entire list
  and it's cumbersome and could be confusing; I can't think of any public list
  that I'm on (across >5 mailman instances) that doesn't both leave all
  copyrights with the original creator and also has no explicit licensing.
  (maybe I'm wrong, but the license wouldn't really be enforceable if there was
  a way to "agree" to it without knowing about it) I'm guessing most public
  lists are already mirrored (on gmane and other places) and I think those
  mirrors would do OK in a copyright suit. (especially if they're willing to
  take down individual posts on request of the author and most of them are
  willing to)

  I think the best you could do for lists is tell people that the PSF has no
  objection to mirroring if they comply with x,y,z (maybe something about
  trademark) but that the PSF doesn't actually own the rights to most of the
  content and maybe they should consult their own lawyer.
</mailing list archives tangent>

Anyway, for content/code that fits the general rule (for now excluding mailing
lists): once you've chosen how to license and want to start migrating then:
* change the site terms and add a message on the edit page to indicate the
  license for new contribs
* change the process for new svn accts to make sure they agree and get explicit
  agreement from all existing svn users
* explicitly mark existing pages/code as legacy / rights unknown (or needs a
  human to investigate or verify)

Any new content added after those actions will be under the new license(s) and
old content will eventually be verified to be available under the new license
(e.g. by a statement of the original author) or found to be unverifiable and be
replaced or removed. (maybe rewritten in a way that's not a derivative work of
the unverifiable content)

In the interim you'll need a copyright statement/legal notice that warns
reusers and mirrors that they might have to do their own homework to know what
the rights are for certain components.

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 14:01, David Mertz <mertz at gnosis.cx> wrote:
> A Collection Copyright cannot authorize copying on component material that
> does not itself have permission for copying.  So indeed, the PSF may be able
> to assert additional copyright interest in the Wiki as an aggregation, but
> even if we did so it would not thereby give us control to authorize use of
> any page within it; we could only *prohibit* copying of the collection as a
> whole (i.e. even if someone had permission for each component page).

Agreed (AIUI), except for the part about calling it copyright. At least in the
EU, DB rights are not related to nor part of copyright. And it wouldn't apply
in the US anyway. (AIUI) See what I said near the top about DB rights.

> That said, I really do think the slightly wink-and-nudge approach is the
> thing to do.  As Carl Karsten phrases it in a different thread: "the PSF does
> not have an opinion, use your good judgment and hope for the best."

I agree this is a valid and reasonable approach for the short term (maybe just
add something like "this is not legal advice, talk to your own lawyer") but
it's also a problem that needs fixing in the longer term.

-Jeremy

From mertz at gnosis.cx  Fri Apr 20 20:47:40 2012
From: mertz at gnosis.cx (David Mertz)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:47:40 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] Nonprofit Academic Permission
	Request ::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <CAE-2OCYgiX8tOzQRGu7A1-f2X9naDerCOB=22_yVY+U=+6rexQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
	<CAE-2OCYgiX8tOzQRGu7A1-f2X9naDerCOB=22_yVY+U=+6rexQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <609AF83B-D111-4F28-AD17-7BD2C8411713@gnosis.cx>

On Apr 20, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Jeremy Baron wrote:
> It sounds like you're talking about database rights. See
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_rights (for the general question) and
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications_v._Rural_Telephone_Service
> (for the US in particular). DB rights were created in the EU by EU directive
> and it seems were ruled unconstitutional in the US by the supreme court. At
> least in the EU, DB rights are a separate right from copyright and not a part
> of copyright.

Nah, Guido was writing about Collection Copyright (e.g. http://www.sacred-texts.com/sect103.htm).  "Database Rights" are rights in the manner of aggregation of material that is not otherwise copyrightable.  However, every page (or even just sentence) on the Wiki is itself straightforwardly covered by copyright already.

For example, if I were to publish a book _My Favorite 18th Century Short Stories_, the individual stories will have already come into the public domain.  However, I can still copyright the selection of those particular stories arranged in that particular order, and prohibit someone else from publishing the same collection.  The same applies to my followup volume _My Favorite 20th Century Short Stories_, but in that case the individual stories will each be covered by copyright held by some individual or estate (well, for those after 1927).  The Wiki is similar to this... except that none of the contributions themselves have come into the public domain as a matter of age.

> My personal opinion (i.e. without really knowing anything about how the PSF
> works) is that the websites should as a general rule be available with content
> released as PD/CC-0 or licensed under CC-BY or CC-BY-SA and code released as
> PD/CC-0 or licensed under one of the Python License, GPL, or AGPL. Content can
> also be licensed the same way the code is licensed. (but as an addition not a
> replacement. so content could be dual licensed CC-BY-SA+Python License but not
> just the Python License)

Well, I entirely agree that content SHOULD BE released on such non-restrictive terms.  But those terms were not specified as a condition of contribution to the Wiki, and the Wiki includes contributions even from anonymous editors whose permission for non-restrictive licensing is effectively impossible to obtain now.  It's an unfortunate situation, but it's one that is damn hard to remedy given current copyright law.

Going forward, I also agree that we SHOULD add non-restrictive terms to all future contributions to the Wiki.  This would, over time, certainly cover any newly created pages.  And in principle we could examine diffs to determine what in old pages was of undeterminable provenance (and perhaps purge it).

Yours, David...

--
Dred Scott 1857; Santa Clara 1886; Plessy 1892; Korematsu 1944; Eldred 2003





From mal at egenix.com  Fri Apr 20 20:57:45 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 20:57:45 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4F91B1A9.9040801@egenix.com>

Steve Holden wrote:
> I think that would be about the worst possible approach. WEll, no, I could think of worse, but we can't tell people to ignore potential copyright issues on content we publish in our wiki. We simply don't have that right.

Agreed, this would indeed be a very poor statement to make
given that the PSF has a mission to protect the IP in Python.

At the moment the only thing we can tell people requesting the
PSF's opinion on the wiki content is that we don't own the
copyright and thus cannot make a statement.

Without a licensing scheme in place, the resp. authors retain the
copyright and full rights to it. The fact that they place the
content on a public website is indication that they are fine
with making the content available to the general public, but
it doesn't imply that we can freely allow others to take it
and do whatever they want with it.

The same goes for mailing list archives or any other user
provided content that the PSF hosts, but for which we don't
have a license relationship with the authors in place.

That said, I don't we have a problem, we're just talking us into
having one...

> S
> 
> On Apr 20, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
> 
>> Could someone say "the PSF does not have an opinion, use your good judgment and hope for the best."   That seems as true as "The PSF says don't do it, but they probably wont call the police if you ignore them."
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PSF-Board mailing list
> PSF-Board at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-board

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Apr 20 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-04-28: PythonCamp 2012, Cologne, Germany               8 days to go

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From amk at amk.ca  Fri Apr 20 21:37:08 2012
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:37:08 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <4F91B1A9.9040801@egenix.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>
	<4F91B1A9.9040801@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <20120420193708.GA28324@DATL9MAKUCHLING.local>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 08:57:45PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> Steve Holden wrote:
> At the moment the only thing we can tell people requesting the
> PSF's opinion on the wiki content is that we don't own the
> copyright and thus cannot make a statement.

Should we add a notice to the edit page like Wikipedia's?  Wikipedia's
reads:

	By clicking the "Save Page" button, you agree to the Terms of
	Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution
	under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a
	hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative
	Commons license.

We'd still have the problem of getting a license to the existing wiki
content.  Perhaps we could take a vote of the contributors with logins
("Are you OK with using license X?").


--amk

From guido at python.org  Fri Apr 20 22:44:48 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:44:48 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <20120420193708.GA28324@DATL9MAKUCHLING.local>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>
	<4F91B1A9.9040801@egenix.com>
	<20120420193708.GA28324@DATL9MAKUCHLING.local>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+zncWyE9gQCr87LmkVFjruc+NRJa26smks6RJa++z3ag@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 12:37 PM, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 08:57:45PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> Steve Holden wrote:
>> At the moment the only thing we can tell people requesting the
>> PSF's opinion on the wiki content is that we don't own the
>> copyright and thus cannot make a statement.
>
> Should we add a notice to the edit page like Wikipedia's? ?Wikipedia's
> reads:
>
> ? ? ? ?By clicking the "Save Page" button, you agree to the Terms of
> ? ? ? ?Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution
> ? ? ? ?under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a
> ? ? ? ?hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative
> ? ? ? ?Commons license.

Awesome. I had a feeling that we aren't the first organization dealing
with this issue.

> We'd still have the problem of getting a license to the existing wiki
> content. ?Perhaps we could take a vote of the contributors with logins
> ("Are you OK with using license X?").

Yeah, that's a project in itself. Half of those users probably left
behind an email address that no longer works. :-(

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From mal at egenix.com  Fri Apr 20 22:55:08 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 22:55:08 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  License of website
In-Reply-To: <20120420193708.GA28324@DATL9MAKUCHLING.local>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>
	<4F91B1A9.9040801@egenix.com>
	<20120420193708.GA28324@DATL9MAKUCHLING.local>
Message-ID: <4F91CD2C.2050904@egenix.com>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 08:57:45PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> Steve Holden wrote:
>> At the moment the only thing we can tell people requesting the
>> PSF's opinion on the wiki content is that we don't own the
>> copyright and thus cannot make a statement.
> 
> Should we add a notice to the edit page like Wikipedia's?  Wikipedia's
> reads:
> 
> 	By clicking the "Save Page" button, you agree to the Terms of
> 	Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution
> 	under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a
> 	hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative
> 	Commons license.

Good idea, except we don't need the GFDL.

> We'd still have the problem of getting a license to the existing wiki
> content.  Perhaps we could take a vote of the contributors with logins
> ("Are you OK with using license X?").

How did Wikipedia manage the switch from GFDL to CC-BY-SA ? Perhaps
we could use the same approach.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Apr 20 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-04-28: PythonCamp 2012, Cologne, Germany               8 days to go

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From jeremy at tuxmachine.com  Fri Apr 20 23:01:27 2012
From: jeremy at tuxmachine.com (Jeremy Baron)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:01:27 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] License of website
In-Reply-To: <4F91CD2C.2050904@egenix.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>
	<4F91B1A9.9040801@egenix.com>
	<20120420193708.GA28324@DATL9MAKUCHLING.local>
	<4F91CD2C.2050904@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAE-2OCbFDhWf76y8J3qf9x0yN30=8GOyhdZQQpO5jz8JqkmJNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 16:55, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
> A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 08:57:45PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>> Steve Holden wrote:
>>> At the moment the only thing we can tell people requesting the
>>> PSF's opinion on the wiki content is that we don't own the
>>> copyright and thus cannot make a statement.
>>
>> Should we add a notice to the edit page like Wikipedia's? ?Wikipedia's
>> reads:
>>
>> ? ? ? By clicking the "Save Page" button, you agree to the Terms of
>> ? ? ? Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution
>> ? ? ? under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a
>> ? ? ? hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative
>> ? ? ? Commons license.
>
> Good idea, except we don't need the GFDL.
>
>> We'd still have the problem of getting a license to the existing wiki
>> content. ?Perhaps we could take a vote of the contributors with logins
>> ("Are you OK with using license X?").
>
> How did Wikipedia manage the switch from GFDL to CC-BY-SA ? Perhaps
> we could use the same approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Licensing_update

-Jeremy

From mats at wichmann.us  Fri Apr 20 23:09:49 2012
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:09:49 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Nonprofit Academic Permission Request
	::wpmc::10-17250
In-Reply-To: <CAE-2OCZQPOoSq8pnFwkC6WmLQii1Uhsw28u_W3YTFuSTZSP9Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5E7501548A1A43638F09EE82788A1667@iowa.uiowa.edu>
	<3D2DE8FA-247E-4C77-AD4E-85C07FB5ECA0@python.org>
	<CAP7+vJ+i8umXP2dst88FP6fa00ncoa-BPb31KmUCPLqW76ahjQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F919074.4070309@v.loewis.de>
	<CAJ2VPS3Qks78WiKKJdD87Meuana9Ks3ZP0NEXevxP5G++tpExw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE-2OCZQPOoSq8pnFwkC6WmLQii1Uhsw28u_W3YTFuSTZSP9Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F91D09D.9010607@wichmann.us>

On 04/20/2012 11:31 AM, Jeremy Baron wrote:

> I think the concern was that there might be more than a few copyright
> holders with unclear (or at least not obvious to someone new to the
> site) records about who holds the copyright for which pieces. That
> combined with the lack of a license or copyright grant (but IDK for
> sure that one doesn't exist, just guessing from the thread) means
> there's a lot (potential) of copyright holders to worry about. Even if
> only using a part of the site or a part of the wiki.
> 
> A single copyright holder or a small group of them saying they won't
> sue just applies to whoever said it (not to mention whether it's
> binding); the total number of copyright holders could be far larger
> than the group that made a statement.


Well, the assumption from general practice ought to be that wiki
postings are not protected material, by the nature of wikis as a
collaborative editing tool where anyone with rights to make changes can
change any content at any time. I've just scouted around and most of the
wikis I've looked at do have some sort of disclaimer - sometimes
presented on every page, like "Content is available under Creative
Commons Attribution 3.0 License.", some reserving a warning for when you
go into edit mode, like this one:

Please note that all contributions to The Linux Foundation may be
edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you don't want
your writing to be edited mercilessly, then don't submit it here.
You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it
from a public domain or similar free resource (see Project:Copyrights
for details). DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!


We ought to have something wording on the wiki to make things clear for
the future, although there could always be an argument that submissions
before such a disclaimer would not automatically be covered.

I also think people would be likely to treat "mirroring", even if not
done in the classical sense as in this particular case, with a lot of
tolerance: if I submitted to wiki.python.org,  is it a problem if
that site is mirrored as a whole for wider access?  (wiki mirroring is a
little tricky technically though... you really need a dump of the
backing database and to mirror that to be sure you've got it all right,
but that's a rather different story)


From mal at egenix.com  Sat Apr 21 01:47:05 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 01:47:05 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board] License of website
In-Reply-To: <CAE-2OCbFDhWf76y8J3qf9x0yN30=8GOyhdZQQpO5jz8JqkmJNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20A626D1-B034-4564-B511-B432748ED449@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20120420005426.Horde.DJdsGaGZi1VPkJeiTVMFYdA@webmail.df.eu>
	<C71C5F4D-CB25-48B0-AD5F-22035D5F8CBC@voidspace.org.uk>
	<4F916C9A.8050704@drees.name>
	<B2FD5CD4-F24B-40EB-8342-8D695A54AE38@voidspace.org.uk>
	<CADmzSSjepCYVbJJ0v8zSweVAio4oALO0nf+-HjVcfgZHW3fi4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<FF86B1A3-5A9D-4378-A20C-23C57406BD40@holdenweb.com>
	<4F91B1A9.9040801@egenix.com>
	<20120420193708.GA28324@DATL9MAKUCHLING.local>
	<4F91CD2C.2050904@egenix.com>
	<CAE-2OCbFDhWf76y8J3qf9x0yN30=8GOyhdZQQpO5jz8JqkmJNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F91F579.1000403@egenix.com>

Jeremy Baron wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 16:55, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>> A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>>> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 08:57:45PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>>> Steve Holden wrote:
>>>> At the moment the only thing we can tell people requesting the
>>>> PSF's opinion on the wiki content is that we don't own the
>>>> copyright and thus cannot make a statement.
>>>
>>> Should we add a notice to the edit page like Wikipedia's?  Wikipedia's
>>> reads:
>>>
>>>       By clicking the "Save Page" button, you agree to the Terms of
>>>       Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution
>>>       under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a
>>>       hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative
>>>       Commons license.
>>
>> Good idea, except we don't need the GFDL.
>>
>>> We'd still have the problem of getting a license to the existing wiki
>>> content.  Perhaps we could take a vote of the contributors with logins
>>> ("Are you OK with using license X?").
>>
>> How did Wikipedia manage the switch from GFDL to CC-BY-SA ? Perhaps
>> we could use the same approach.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Licensing_update

Thanks. Doesn't look like we can use such an approach.

I guess we'll have to just leave it as it is and just start
using the above to eventually end up with a CC-BY-SA licensed
wiki.

In theory we'd be able to use a robot to run over all pages
and identify the parts that are not yet under CC-BY-SA. Perhaps
we could make that an SoC or school project in, say, 3 years
from now.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Apr 21 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-04-28: PythonCamp 2012, Cologne, Germany               7 days to go

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Apr 21 04:09:26 2012
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:09:26 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012, fwierzbicki at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> I managed to get a one page version by using an older version of
> chrome on a mac desktop by messing with the margins. I wonder if we
> should include a pdf version of the contributor agreement just to be
> sure that contributors can get a consistant form? Or else maybe
> someone with mad css skills can fix the html version :) ?

Trying to get a one-page form in HTML can be painful, please feel free to
send a PDF and we'll get it up.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

import antigravity

From fwierzbicki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 21 04:38:21 2012
From: fwierzbicki at gmail.com (fwierzbicki at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:38:21 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>
Message-ID: <CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Trying to get a one-page form in HTML can be painful,
I am not surprised :)

> please feel free to send a PDF and we'll get it up.
One is attached, I had to kill the margins to get it to work, but it's
functional.

-Frank
-------------- next part --------------
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From mats at wichmann.us  Sun Apr 22 01:02:08 2012
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:02:08 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>
	<CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us>


As an employee of a "large corporation", I'll observe that the problem
with contributor forms is once you have to sign one, the lawyer has to
get involved.  Once the lawyer has to get involved, life WILL get
complicated.  Of any 32 corporations, 27 will have a lawyer who wants to
make a small-to-large change, just to suit their particular way of doing
things.  Then the PSF will have to have a lawyer decide whether those
changes are okay for this one-off deal (or maybe whether that change
should go into the generic, in which case you have a new thing that a
bunch of lawyers have to look at).  I actually have, from years ago, a
"grandfathered" permission to contribute to Python, from those days when
I was actually doing website work, as long as I don't contribute any
<insert my big company's name> IP, because I asked for that and got it.
So at the moment it's very simple, but if I had to sign a specific
contributor agreement, all that good stuff goes away and my business
unit lawyer gets involved, and I'd probably lose the permission I now
have.  In my specific case, that is harmless to Python since I don't
contribute to the code base and now also don't contribute to the
website, but it's an example: it probably will affect others.  IANAL of
course, but it seems that implicit agreements often work, and are likely
to cause less trouble (by implicit, I mean PSF saying "if you
contribute, understand you're doing so under these terms")



From brian at python.org  Sun Apr 22 01:03:19 2012
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:03:19 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>
	<CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwoo6MgTU8ekpeYgWSBA3YLE9FLRD0QLKoC5MaN1kkJktQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 18:02, Mats Wichmann <mats at wichmann.us> wrote:
>
> As an employee of a "large corporation", I'll observe that the problem
> with contributor forms is once you have to sign one, the lawyer has to
> get involved. ?Once the lawyer has to get involved, life WILL get
> complicated. ?Of any 32 corporations, 27 will have a lawyer who wants to
> make a small-to-large change, just to suit their particular way of doing
> things. ?Then the PSF will have to have a lawyer decide whether those
> changes are okay for this one-off deal (or maybe whether that change
> should go into the generic, in which case you have a new thing that a
> bunch of lawyers have to look at). ?I actually have, from years ago, a
> "grandfathered" permission to contribute to Python, from those days when
> I was actually doing website work, as long as I don't contribute any
> <insert my big company's name> IP, because I asked for that and got it.
> So at the moment it's very simple, but if I had to sign a specific
> contributor agreement, all that good stuff goes away and my business
> unit lawyer gets involved, and I'd probably lose the permission I now
> have. ?In my specific case, that is harmless to Python since I don't
> contribute to the code base and now also don't contribute to the
> website, but it's an example: it probably will affect others. ?IANAL of
> course, but it seems that implicit agreements often work, and are likely
> to cause less trouble (by implicit, I mean PSF saying "if you
> contribute, understand you're doing so under these terms")

At least one reason why we require explicit agreement (the one I'm
most familiar with) is to keep track of all contributors in the event
that we need to change the licensing terms, or change the license all
together. As far as I know, this is not open for debate -- it's a
requirement for us.

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 22 07:08:32 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 07:08:32 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>	<20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>	<CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <4F939250.5090305@v.loewis.de>

Am 22.04.2012 01:02, schrieb Mats Wichmann:
> As an employee of a "large corporation", I'll observe that the problem
> with contributor forms is once you have to sign one, the lawyer has to
> get involved.  Once the lawyer has to get involved, life WILL get
> complicated. 

Tough luck. Then you just can't contribute to Python. I'm serious about
this: if your company's lawyer is not happy that you essentially give
all rights of your contribution to the PSF, then the PSF cannot use your
contribution. The risk is too high that the lawyer finds out at some
point and claims that your company has rights to Python. That's
*exactly* one of the reasons to have contributor forms: to get the
employer of a contributor to explicitly acknowledge that it is ok to
contribute (assuming the employer has rights over the contribution).

Regards,
Martin

From mats at wichmann.us  Mon Apr 23 03:58:20 2012
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:58:20 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <4F939250.5090305@v.loewis.de>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>	<20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>	<CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us> <4F939250.5090305@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4F94B73C.4030309@wichmann.us>

On 04/21/2012 11:08 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> Am 22.04.2012 01:02, schrieb Mats Wichmann:
>> As an employee of a "large corporation", I'll observe that the problem
>> with contributor forms is once you have to sign one, the lawyer has to
>> get involved.  Once the lawyer has to get involved, life WILL get
>> complicated. 
> 
> Tough luck. Then you just can't contribute to Python. I'm serious about
> this: if your company's lawyer is not happy that you essentially give
> all rights of your contribution to the PSF, then the PSF cannot use your
> contribution. The risk is too high that the lawyer finds out at some
> point and claims that your company has rights to Python. That's
> *exactly* one of the reasons to have contributor forms: to get the
> employer of a contributor to explicitly acknowledge that it is ok to
> contribute (assuming the employer has rights over the contribution).

I guess I have to feel free to disagree.   For my case, my big company
has been involved in open source for a long time, we have a clear well
documented process for contributions to projects, and though that
process has gotten more complicated over the years since I did it, I
have gone through it for Python, following all the necessary steps, and
it's all approved: the people who need to know, do know, the bases are
all covered, with a clear understanding that the contributions are all
that, no ownership interest would be retained by us.  If there's a new
"contributor agreement", it does mean a lawyer has to look at it in
excruciating detail. And as a deal unique to PSF, that means the chance
of issues. This question is not supposed to be be about me, as noted, so
maybe the impression I have of "if used to work, now it's going to get
more complicated" looms bigger.  But I do know we've had problems with
both the Ubuntu contributor agreement, and the Fedora one, to name two
that actually affected me.  There are projects that get by without "you
must sign this assignment of rights" type contributor agreements, not
sure why Python can't be one of them.

(yes, these are only my personal reactions, take them for whatever 0.05%
value they may have)



From mal at egenix.com  Mon Apr 23 10:07:26 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:07:26 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <4F94B73C.4030309@wichmann.us>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>	<20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>	<CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us> <4F939250.5090305@v.loewis.de>
	<4F94B73C.4030309@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <4F950DBE.90301@egenix.com>

Hi Mats,

unfortunately, the only way we (as the PSF) can properly protect
the Python IP is by having a clear copyright and license chain
from the contributors to the PSF. Since contributors give
the PSF far more than just a usage license, this has to be handled
using a contributor agreement.

Note that we just need this for copyrightable contributions, not
small bug fixes. And you only need to go through the process once,
since it covers past and future contributions.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Apr 23 2012)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2012-04-28: PythonCamp 2012, Cologne, Germany               5 days to go

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/



Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 04/21/2012 11:08 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> Am 22.04.2012 01:02, schrieb Mats Wichmann:
>>> As an employee of a "large corporation", I'll observe that the problem
>>> with contributor forms is once you have to sign one, the lawyer has to
>>> get involved.  Once the lawyer has to get involved, life WILL get
>>> complicated. 
>>
>> Tough luck. Then you just can't contribute to Python. I'm serious about
>> this: if your company's lawyer is not happy that you essentially give
>> all rights of your contribution to the PSF, then the PSF cannot use your
>> contribution. The risk is too high that the lawyer finds out at some
>> point and claims that your company has rights to Python. That's
>> *exactly* one of the reasons to have contributor forms: to get the
>> employer of a contributor to explicitly acknowledge that it is ok to
>> contribute (assuming the employer has rights over the contribution).
> 
> I guess I have to feel free to disagree.   For my case, my big company
> has been involved in open source for a long time, we have a clear well
> documented process for contributions to projects, and though that
> process has gotten more complicated over the years since I did it, I
> have gone through it for Python, following all the necessary steps, and
> it's all approved: the people who need to know, do know, the bases are
> all covered, with a clear understanding that the contributions are all
> that, no ownership interest would be retained by us.  If there's a new
> "contributor agreement", it does mean a lawyer has to look at it in
> excruciating detail. And as a deal unique to PSF, that means the chance
> of issues. This question is not supposed to be be about me, as noted, so
> maybe the impression I have of "if used to work, now it's going to get
> more complicated" looms bigger.  But I do know we've had problems with
> both the Ubuntu contributor agreement, and the Fedora one, to name two
> that actually affected me.  There are projects that get by without "you
> must sign this assignment of rights" type contributor agreements, not
> sure why Python can't be one of them.
> 
> (yes, these are only my personal reactions, take them for whatever 0.05%
> value they may have)




From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Apr 23 16:48:15 2012
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 07:48:15 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF Contributor form
In-Reply-To: <4F94B73C.4030309@wichmann.us>
References: <CADrh4zLrixWn5r0=Yt1w4p2GEWQtrE+Y-DfvHrSzEjUhXADm3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120421020926.GA24176@panix.com>
	<CADrh4zKSY+e4HcTUAQEDQ4_jwd8v8oc8RJYSHdt+LyhSU6_1qA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F933C70.9020200@wichmann.us> <4F939250.5090305@v.loewis.de>
	<4F94B73C.4030309@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <20120423144815.GA9673@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 22, 2012, Mats Wichmann wrote:
>
> I guess I have to feel free to disagree.   For my case, my big company
> has been involved in open source for a long time, we have a clear well
> documented process for contributions to projects, and though that
> process has gotten more complicated over the years since I did it, I
> have gone through it for Python, following all the necessary steps, and
> it's all approved: the people who need to know, do know, the bases are
> all covered, with a clear understanding that the contributions are all
> that, no ownership interest would be retained by us.  If there's a new
> "contributor agreement", it does mean a lawyer has to look at it in
> excruciating detail. And as a deal unique to PSF, that means the chance
> of issues. This question is not supposed to be be about me, as noted, so
> maybe the impression I have of "if used to work, now it's going to get
> more complicated" looms bigger.  But I do know we've had problems with
> both the Ubuntu contributor agreement, and the Fedora one, to name two
> that actually affected me.  There are projects that get by without "you
> must sign this assignment of rights" type contributor agreements, not
> sure why Python can't be one of them.

Maybe because they don't have Python's history of problems with
licensing.  IIRC, you were around for the Python 1.6/2.0 mess that
precipitated the creation of the PSF.

For anyone who doesn't remember, the following will give some flavor:
http://www.python.org/download/releases/1.6/license_faq/
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

import antigravity

From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Mon Apr 30 13:27:08 2012
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:27:08 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding PyGotham to the community workshops page
In-Reply-To: <307qDdLqb4208S01.1335784647@web01.cms.usa.net>
References: <307qDdLqb4208S01.1335784647@web01.cms.usa.net>
Message-ID: <5FD471A8-C86F-4B5C-AE14-C66DA05F6168@voidspace.org.uk>

Hello David,

If there is updated news (deadline for call for proposals or similar) we could post an updated news item. Please send the request to either webmaster at python.org or pydotorg-www at python.org as there are several people who may be able to do it. One of us will also update the community workshops page with:

		`PyGotham <http://pygotham.org/>`_

If you write up a longer announcement (a couple of paragraphs or so), then it could be posted on the pycon blogspot.

All the best,

Michael Foord


On 30 Apr 2012, at 12:17, David Jensen wrote:

> Michael,
> 
> There should be a place where it is posted. Why is it not in:
> 
> http://www.python.org/community/workshops/
> 
> Can I post it myself as a news item?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> David Jensen
> Apartment 412
> 414 West 120th Street
> New York, New York 10027
> 212-866-7094 
> preferred:: cell: 646-282-6355
> davidjensen at usa.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: 07:09 AM EDT, 04/30/2012
> From: Michael Foord <michael at voidspace.org.uk>
> To: David Jensen <davidjensen at usa.net>
> Subject: Re: [pydotorg-www] pydotorg-www Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
> 
>> Hello David,
>> 
>> News items posted to the python.org site only last until new news knocks
> them off the bottom. We post announcements there, not permanent news items. I
> assure you I *did* post the news and it was shown - you can see it in the rss
> feed:
>> 
>> 	http://python.org/channews.rdf
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Michael
>> 
>> On 30 Apr 2012, at 12:04, David Jensen wrote:
>> 
>>> Michael,
>>> 
>>> PyGotham is nowhere on the python.org site. Please add it back.
>>> 
>>> I thought marketing was going to be a group effort here, but there does
> not
>>> seem to be coordination of efforts.
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> David Jensen
>>> Apartment 412
>>> 414 West 120th Street
>>> New York, New York 10027
>>> 212-866-7094 
>>> preferred:: cell: 646-282-6355
>>> davidjensen at usa.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> Received: 01:14 PM EST, 03/04/2012
>>> From: Michael Foord <michael at voidspace.org.uk>
>>> To: David Jensen <davidjensen at usa.net>Cc: <pydotorg-www at python.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [pydotorg-www] pydotorg-www Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
>>> 
>>>> Hello David,
>>>> 
>>>> I've added this, it should show up shortly.
>>>> 
>>>> All the best,
>>>> 
>>>> Michael Foord
>>>> 
>>>> On 24 Feb 2012, at 15:14, David Jensen wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Please update the current listing of PyGotham on the first page of
>>> python.org.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> It currently says:
>>>>> 
>>>>> PyGotham
>>>>> 
>>>>> PyGotham will be held September 16-17, 2011.
>>>>> Published: Tue, 6 September 2011, 08:00 +0200
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please change the date to June 8-9, 2012.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> David Jensen
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> Received: 06:04 AM EST, 02/24/2012
>>>>> From: pydotorg-www-request at python.org
>>>>> To: pydotorg-www at python.org
>>>>> Subject: pydotorg-www Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Send pydotorg-www mailing list submissions to
>>>>>> 	pydotorg-www at python.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>> 	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>> 	pydotorg-www-request at python.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>> 	pydotorg-www-owner at python.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of pydotorg-www digest..."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1. PyGotham II (David Jensen)
>>>>>> 2. Donated infrastructure listing (Martin v. L?wis)
>>>>>> 3. Re: PyGotham II (Aahz)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 10:57:21 -0500
>>>>>> From: "David Jensen" <davidjensen at usa.net>
>>>>>> To: <pydotorg-www at python.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [pydotorg-www] PyGotham II
>>>>>> Message-ID: <156qBwP5V3200S04.1330012641 at web04.cms.usa.net>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Please put PyGotham II as taking place June 8-9. We expect 400
>>> attendees.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Jensen
>>>>>> Apartment 412
>>>>>> 414 West 120th Street
>>>>>> New York, New York 10027
>>>>>> 212-866-7094 
>>>>>> preferred:: cell: 646-282-6355
>>>>>> davidjensen at usa.net
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:00:45 +0100
>>>>>> From: "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>
>>>>>> To: pydotorg-www <pydotorg-www at python.org>, 	Public PSF Board List
>>>>>> 	<psf-board-public at python.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [pydotorg-www] Donated infrastructure listing
>>>>>> Message-ID: <4F46B70D.4090501 at v.loewis.de>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I started creating a listing of donated infrastructure, at
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.python.org/psf/infrastructure/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If I forgot something, please let me know (name, logo, and what
>>>>>> service/component was donated), or just go ahead and add it yourself.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:34:09 -0800
>>>>>> From: Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com>
>>>>>> To: pydotorg-www at python.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [pydotorg-www] PyGotham II
>>>>>> Message-ID: <20120224013409.GA6171 at panix.com>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012, David Jensen wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Please put PyGotham II as taking place June 8-9. We expect 400
>>> attendees.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you're requesting the addition of a news item, you need to provide
>>>>>> more information.  Take a look at the examples currently up.
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>        
>>>>> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Weinberg's Second Law: If builders built buildings the way programmers
>>> wrote
>>>>> 
>>>>>> programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy
>>>>> civilization.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>>>>>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> End of pydotorg-www Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
>>>>>> *******************************************
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>>>>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> May you do good and not evil
>>>> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
>>>> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
>>>> -- the sqlite blessing 
>>>> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>> 
>> 
>> May you do good and not evil
>> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
>> May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
>> -- the sqlite blessing 
>> http://www.sqlite.org/different.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From davidjensen at usa.net  Mon Apr 30 17:44:48 2012
From: davidjensen at usa.net (David Jensen)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:44:48 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Deadline for Call for Proposals
Message-ID: <020qDdPrW2624S01.1335800688@web01.cms.usa.net>

Deadline for Call for Proposals

The deadline for proposals for PyGotham II, June 8-9 is May 30. Please submit
to the pygotham.org site or contact Gloria Willardsen at
strangest at comcast.net.


David Jensen
davidjensen at usa.net