From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 12:49:10 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:49:10 +0300
Subject: [Pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg-redesign] Join pydotorg lists
In-Reply-To: <4B798936.10703@holdenweb.com>
References: <d34314101002150640j3ef1aa1dl5dd699b04290a99c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1266252366.20588.0.camel@workshop> <4B798936.10703@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <v2rd34314101004060349ycc4d56e5r7b6c2507d1a93dcd@mail.gmail.com>

So, who do I need to ask to process the merge?
-- 
anatoly t.



On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com> wrote:
> Michael R. Bernstein wrote:
>> On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 16:40 +0200, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>> I'd like to propose joining pydotorg-www and pydotorg-redesign in one
>>> pydotorg mailing list to reduce clutter and provide single point of
>>> collaboration to improve the web site. Concentrating efforts in one
>>> place helps to keep people focused and increased activity attracts new
>>> contributors.
>>
>> +1
>
> Yes, why have two mailing lists that nothing happens on when you could
> just have one?
>
> regards
> ?Steve
> --
> Steve Holden ? ? ? ? ? +1 571 484 6266 ? +1 800 494 3119
> PyCon is coming! Atlanta, Feb 2010 ?http://us.pycon.org/
> Holden Web LLC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.holdenweb.com/
> UPCOMING EVENTS: ? ? ? ?http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Pydotorg-redesign mailing list
> Pydotorg-redesign at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign
>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 15:10:46 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:10:46 +0300
Subject: [Pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg-redesign] Join pydotorg lists
In-Reply-To: <4BBB216A.5040106@holdenweb.com>
References: <d34314101002150640j3ef1aa1dl5dd699b04290a99c@mail.gmail.com>
	<1266252366.20588.0.camel@workshop> <4B798936.10703@holdenweb.com>
	<v2rd34314101004060349ycc4d56e5r7b6c2507d1a93dcd@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BBB216A.5040106@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <p2md34314101004060610k30a040c9q9f568e4d0af39b0d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com> wrote:
>
> I suspect that postmaster at python.org would need to be involved in the
> mechanics, though I have no idea whether there is any established
> procedure for such an operation.

Added to CC.

> I doubt it's necessary to merge content given the total archive size of
> pydotorg-www is less than 50 kB. Wouldn't it just be easier to post a
> message on that list telling people to subscribe instead to
> pydotor-redesign (whose archives are under 200 kB), and then close
> pydotorg-www down?
>
> You said in your original message:
>
>> I'd like to propose joining pydotorg-www and pydotorg-redesign in one
>> pydotorg mailing list to reduce clutter and provide single point of
>> collaboration to improve the web site. Concentrating efforts in one
>> place helps to keep people focused and increased activity attracts new
>> contributors.
>
> Looking at the archives of both lists:
>
> ?http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-redesign/
> ?http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/
>
> it seems the lack of interest in both of these newsgroups might make
> simply closing one or both down the most practical approach. Or do you
> have a specific purpose in mind after a merge?

I think shutting them both down is the best approach, but this
requires pydotorg list to became public. Is there any reason why
pydotorg can't be made public taking into account that security issues
can be reported directly (or discussed in private
webmaster at python.org) and SVN is public already?

> In the past there has been a sort of "let's start a mailing list"
> disease that people have used to persuade themselves that something will
> happen. ?Sadly experience proves that this isn't often the case, and the
> result is yet another moribund mailing list that doesn't result in any
> action.

That's logical. The activity should be focused, not scattered.

> Since there has been no response to your mail from anyone but Michael
> and I (unless I have missed messages) I would suggest that both lists
> are already pushing up the daisies.
>
> I am, however, extremely interested in harnessing the energies of anyone
> who is keen enough to take any sort of action. To that end I am making
> Rich Leland, who has recently undertaken to look at the web site with a
> view to modernization of both content management and design, aware of
> this thread. He may contact you about this (but I am not committing him
> to any specific action).

That's nice. I would start with focusing our efforts on making
python.org site contributions more open.

The top thing in my pydotorg next-things-to-be-done is merging the
mailing lists.
The proposed plan for it is:

1. open pydotorg to be public
2. open pydotorg-commits to be public - SVN repository is public anyway
3. close public pydotorg-redesign and pydotorg-www
4. publish an announcement to closed lists that all discussions now
take place in pydotorg
5. update mailman list description pages
6. move subscribers from old mailing lists to pydotorg
7. update http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/,
http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/website/,
http://www.python.org/about/website and the link "Help Maintain
Website"

Right now I do not have privileges to carry any of these tasks. Who is
able to do this?
-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 10:07:09 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:07:09 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Mercurial mirror
Message-ID: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a Mercurial mirror of 'pydotorg' inventory?
Any plans to create one?
Any proposal about possible workflow?
-- 
anatoly t.

From benjamin at python.org  Fri Apr 16 22:37:19 2010
From: benjamin at python.org (Benjamin Peterson)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:37:19 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s2v1afaf6161004161337i364fa6dft6cececd1b7c255e1@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/16 anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>:
> Is there a Mercurial mirror of 'pydotorg' inventory?
> Any plans to create one?
> Any proposal about possible workflow?

No, no, and no.



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 11:12:59 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:12:59 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg]  Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <4BC8E9C8.4030001@python.org>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>
	<s2v1afaf6161004161337i364fa6dft6cececd1b7c255e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BC8E5FC.3000600@python.org> <4BC8E9C8.4030001@python.org>
Message-ID: <o2hd34314101004170212ne6d3cd01tc07909d58f07d0af@mail.gmail.com>

CCed to pydotorg public list if you don't mind.

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there a Mercurial mirror of 'pydotorg' inventory?
>>>> Any plans to create one?
>>>> Any proposal about possible workflow?
>>>>
>>> No, no, and no.
>>
>> It would be nice to switch to Mercurial though. :-)
>
> While it certainly doesn't hurt, I don't see the point. ?People will
> hardly start their own forks, and branch like crazy, or put that on
> bitbucket. (Would we even want them to?)

The main idea is to allow people publish patch queues for review if
they do not have access to repository.

Mercurial patch queues has 1:1 relations to Moderation Queue concept
[1] that allows to review and commit edits from people who do not have
access to edit content themselves.

More than that - Mercurial can provide more than 70% of backend
functionality. It already allows importing patches, emailing them,
publishing patches in public repositories and sharing then between
repositories. Mercurial patch queues concept is awesome, but may be
not intuitive (i.e. user friendly) sometimes. Plain commits into
separate repositories may do a better job, but stil 30% of backend
work is still required. But thanks to Mercurial plugin concepts and
Python extensibility the development of other 30% could be a snap.

One major advantage of Mercurial over SVN for the community is that
commits bear names of authors and committers separately providing
attribution that is vital for every healthy collaboration. Speacking
about attribution, even though Mercurial has this feature, Python
community has much to learn from Subversion - I advise everybody to
look at Crediting section in Subversion Community Guide [2].

The fact that contribulyzer.py [3] is written in Python leads me to
rather philosophical question why contribulyzer.py was not (or could
not be) born in Python community?

P.S. Feel free to change thread subject line as needed.

[1] http://code.google.com/p/rainforce/wiki/ModerationQueue
[2] http://subversion.apache.org/docs/community-guide/conventions.html#crediting
[3] http://www.red-bean.com/svnproject/contribulyzer/
-- 
anatoly t.

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Apr 17 13:12:07 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 13:12:07 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg]  Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <o2hd34314101004170212ne6d3cd01tc07909d58f07d0af@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>	<s2v1afaf6161004161337i364fa6dft6cececd1b7c255e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BC8E5FC.3000600@python.org>
	<4BC8E9C8.4030001@python.org>
	<o2hd34314101004170212ne6d3cd01tc07909d58f07d0af@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BC99787.7060203@v.loewis.de>

> The main idea is to allow people publish patch queues for review if
> they do not have access to repository.

That can be *easily* done with subversion also. PLEASE wait with such
proposals until the actual need occurs: WHO wants to publish patches,
and what patches specifically?

> More than that - Mercurial can provide more than 70% of backend
> functionality. It already allows importing patches, emailing them,
> publishing patches in public repositories and sharing then between
> repositories.

Please drop it. The backend functionality is entirely elsewhere here:
it's the web server delivering the pages. You are focused too much on
technology, and too little on actual contribution. Please stop making
requests for changes until you have ACTUALLY contributed something useful.

> The fact that contribulyzer.py [3] is written in Python leads me to
> rather philosophical question why contribulyzer.py was not (or could
> not be) born in Python community?

If you dislike this community too much, maybe you should look for a
different one?

Regards,
Martin

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 09:42:23 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 10:42:23 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg]  Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <4BC99787.7060203@v.loewis.de>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>
	<s2v1afaf6161004161337i364fa6dft6cececd1b7c255e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BC8E5FC.3000600@python.org> <4BC8E9C8.4030001@python.org>
	<o2hd34314101004170212ne6d3cd01tc07909d58f07d0af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BC99787.7060203@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <h2sd34314101004180042hb09c13b6p7f71066c5f6edcad@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 2:12 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> The main idea is to allow people publish patch queues for review if
>> they do not have access to repository.
>
> That can be *easily* done with subversion also. PLEASE wait with such
> proposals until the actual need occurs: WHO wants to publish patches,
> and what patches specifically?

I have no idea how public patch queue management can *easily* be done
with Subversion. I am sure everybody out there would appreciate a
short proof-of-concept on how do you manage patches for projects for
which you do not have commit privileges. This will go straight into
community guide if we'll have one. Who knows - maybe after your
tutorial people will find the contribution process less cumbersome and
we will see a number of great patches popping up.

About WHO. I am, and those people who agree that maintenance of
various products that constitute Python services, their upgrade and
extension would be much better if we maintain those customizations as
series of patches to original upstream version. This is a way how
Debian, FreeBSD and other projects make packages compatible
independently of the upstream.

WHAT patches. First of all note that it is patch queue - one patch
depends on the other and they may even form directed acyclic graph
(DAG). Currently I want to see modifications to our Wiki in clear form
to be able to upgrade it and check that nothing is broken. I hope I am
not alone. There are issues with spam constantly creeping in in
hideous way, pages that can not be deleted, etc. Reread MoinMoin log
for all these years to compare which commits are missing is physically
impossible.

Patch queue can be applied to a newer version of MoinMoin and you can
see which patches are integrated upsteam, which fail and need to be
refreshed, so the process of upgrade will be much easier. People may
also maintain their *public* branches to *collaborate* on new
customizations and propose them once these customizations are
polished. Even if customization is not complete, everybody can pick up
patch queue from the state it was left and continue.

>> More than that - Mercurial can provide more than 70% of backend
>> functionality. It already allows importing patches, emailing them,
>> publishing patches in public repositories and sharing then between
>> repositories.
>
> Please drop it. The backend functionality is entirely elsewhere here:
> it's the web server delivering the pages. You are focused too much on
> technology, and too little on actual contribution. Please stop making
> requests for changes until you have ACTUALLY contributed something useful.

"Please wait", "please drop", "please stop", ... What is next? Martin,
I really value your efforts in maintaining python.org and contributing
to various pieces of software on backend. You are doing a lot of work,
but this doesn't mean you do not need help. For me managing all that
would require an enormous amount of time and knowledge. I can't see
how to follow development process with time constraints I have. I see
the solution in patch queues. You have other way, and I ask if you
don't mind sharing your way of doing things?

You are absolutely right when saying that I focused on technology or
tools to be exact. Proper tools save time and make routine and mundane
tasks as easy as playing solitaire, so even secretaries are addicted.
Right now nobody knows how to properly add new useful dynamic services
to python.org in maintainable, scalable and extensible way. I've
already said that static python.org website in 21 century is a shame,
some people took this too personal, but I won't change my opinion. I
won't apologize either, because I don't blame these people who
probably love this site too much.

What can I ACTUALLY contribute? I should ask you - how can I
contribute, and what should I do to actually contribute? To make it a
constructive discussion let's record your answers in Wiki FAQ for
potential contributors.

>> The fact that contribulyzer.py [3] is written in Python leads me to
>> rather philosophical question why contribulyzer.py was not (or could
>> not be) born in Python community?
>
> If you dislike this community too much, maybe you should look for a
> different one?

Oh, the missing "Please leave". =)

Philosophical context assumes a neutral position towards the fact
leaving people think about true reasons themselves.  Some may think
that people in Python Community are mostly developers, who are
overwhelmed with daily tasks, fixing things, reviewing patches,
triaging tracker issues, answering to emails of various OCD junkies
like me, and developers just do not have time to care about new or
potential contributors.  Some may think that all developers, who might
care and change things are already in ACKS, so they are already
satisfied with their proper attribution and do not feel motivated to
change things.

Your reaction is to protect the community you're comfortable with, so
you think that it is a good feature and we could do this. However, you
say that I dislike the community. That's WRONG. I dislike attitude of
some people, but to hate the community I need to exercise more in dark
side of the Force. That I really dislike is the fact that there is no
movement, and I am trying to change this by attracting more people,
discussing problems to create an environment to make contributions
easier and more fun. But if you'll directly ask me to shut up and go
away I'd probably couldn't resist. =)

-- 
anatoly t.

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 18 10:21:46 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 10:21:46 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg]  Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <h2sd34314101004180042hb09c13b6p7f71066c5f6edcad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>	
	<s2v1afaf6161004161337i364fa6dft6cececd1b7c255e1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BC8E5FC.3000600@python.org> <4BC8E9C8.4030001@python.org>	
	<o2hd34314101004170212ne6d3cd01tc07909d58f07d0af@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BC99787.7060203@v.loewis.de>
	<h2sd34314101004180042hb09c13b6p7f71066c5f6edcad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCAC11A.4020305@v.loewis.de>

>>> The main idea is to allow people publish patch queues for review if
>>> they do not have access to repository.
>> That can be *easily* done with subversion also. PLEASE wait with such
>> proposals until the actual need occurs: WHO wants to publish patches,
>> and what patches specifically?
> 
> I have no idea how public patch queue management can *easily* be done
> with Subversion. I am sure everybody out there would appreciate a
> short proof-of-concept on how do you manage patches for projects for
> which you do not have commit privileges.

People don't need patch queues to contribute - mere patches are
sufficient. Perform a regular checkout, edit the changes you want to
make, use "svn diff" to produce a patch, and mail it to the mailing list
 (or whatever patch submission system the project uses). This has been
working forever.

> About WHO. I am, and those people who agree that maintenance of
> various products that constitute Python services, their upgrade and
> extension would be much better if we maintain those customizations as
> series of patches to original upstream version. This is a way how
> Debian, FreeBSD and other projects make packages compatible
> independently of the upstream.

Just post your patches here.

> WHAT patches. First of all note that it is patch queue - one patch
> depends on the other and they may even form directed acyclic graph
> (DAG). Currently I want to see modifications to our Wiki in clear form
> to be able to upgrade it and check that nothing is broken. I hope I am
> not alone. There are issues with spam constantly creeping in in
> hideous way, pages that can not be deleted, etc. Reread MoinMoin log
> for all these years to compare which commits are missing is physically
> impossible.

I don't understand. What logs are you talking about that you have to
read? The wiki is edited by end users over the Web, I see no use for
Mercurial (or any version control system) here.

> Patch queue can be applied to a newer version of MoinMoin and you can
> see which patches are integrated upsteam, which fail and need to be
> refreshed, so the process of upgrade will be much easier.

Or are you talking about the source code of MoinMoin? We are using the
Debian packages, and upgrading them (whenever a new Debian release is
made) works fine.

> "Please wait", "please drop", "please stop", ... What is next? Martin,
> I really value your efforts in maintaining python.org and contributing
> to various pieces of software on backend. You are doing a lot of work,
> but this doesn't mean you do not need help.

The problem is that you are not helping *at all*. Instead of producing
less work for me (and everybody else), you produce *more work*.

Please pick an aspect where you *can* contribute, rather than CONSTANTLY
picking things where you cannot contribute, and demanding that these
things change.

Also, start accepting that things are done differently from what you
would expect. Learn how things are done, and truly consider adjusting to
that. Propose changes to processes only if you can carry out those
changes mostly on your own, without involving five people to do the
change for you.

> For me managing all that
> would require an enormous amount of time and knowledge. I can't see
> how to follow development process with time constraints I have. I see
> the solution in patch queues. You have other way, and I ask if you
> don't mind sharing your way of doing things?

Depends on the kind of thing in question. One principle is to always use
operating system packages for software installation (where available),
rather than installing software for yourself. Some problems then simply
go away.

> What can I ACTUALLY contribute? I should ask you - how can I
> contribute, and what should I do to actually contribute? To make it a
> constructive discussion let's record your answers in Wiki FAQ for
> potential contributors.

It now depends on what system you want to contribute to, and I can only
speak for the things I maintain. For PyPI and roundup, pick things from
the bug tracker and post patches that solve these problems.

I thought you were interested in changing the content of some of the web
pages. So start posting patches for these changes.

> That I really dislike is the fact that there is no
> movement, and I am trying to change this by attracting more people,
> discussing problems to create an environment to make contributions
> easier and more fun. But if you'll directly ask me to shut up and go
> away I'd probably couldn't resist. =)

I'm asking you to stop making these demanding posts. Don't tell us what
is wrong (in your opinion), but actually contribute to these things.
Choose things that you can do yourself, and be creative in finding ways
of doing them yourself even without the processes being the way you
think they should be.

Regards,
Martin


From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Apr 18 10:49:49 2010
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 10:49:49 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCAC7AD.2080509@libero.it>

anatoly techtonik ha scritto:
> Is there a Mercurial mirror of 'pydotorg' inventory?
> Any plans to create one?
> Any proposal about possible workflow?

You may just create an unofficial Mercurial mirror.

I too, find that a distribuited versioning system is more friendly to
user contribution, but changing the primary repository of a project
requires a lot of work.  Unofficial mirror is what you want.



Regards  Manlio

From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 18 11:08:05 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:08:05 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg]  Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <4BCAC11A.4020305@v.loewis.de>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>	
	<s2v1afaf6161004161337i364fa6dft6cececd1b7c255e1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BC8E5FC.3000600@python.org> <4BC8E9C8.4030001@python.org>	
	<o2hd34314101004170212ne6d3cd01tc07909d58f07d0af@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BC99787.7060203@v.loewis.de>
	<h2sd34314101004180042hb09c13b6p7f71066c5f6edcad@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCAC11A.4020305@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BCACBF5.6080805@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 18.04.2010 10:21, schrieb "Martin v. L?wis":

>> Patch queue can be applied to a newer version of MoinMoin and you can
>> see which patches are integrated upsteam, which fail and need to be
>> refreshed, so the process of upgrade will be much easier.
> 
> Or are you talking about the source code of MoinMoin? We are using the
> Debian packages, and upgrading them (whenever a new Debian release is
> made) works fine.

I do think that a patch queue is an easier way to maintain a set of changes
to the original code base, as we do at least for Roundup (don't know about
MoinMoin).  However, I don't do the maintenance, so I won't try to prescribe
a workflow to the people doing the actual work.

>> "Please wait", "please drop", "please stop", ... What is next? Martin,
>> I really value your efforts in maintaining python.org and contributing
>> to various pieces of software on backend. You are doing a lot of work,
>> but this doesn't mean you do not need help.
> 
> The problem is that you are not helping *at all*. Instead of producing
> less work for me (and everybody else), you produce *more work*.
> 
> Please pick an aspect where you *can* contribute, rather than CONSTANTLY
> picking things where you cannot contribute, and demanding that these
> things change.
> 
> Also, start accepting that things are done differently from what you
> would expect. Learn how things are done, and truly consider adjusting to
> that. Propose changes to processes only if you can carry out those
> changes mostly on your own, without involving five people to do the
> change for you.

Big +1.  This should be framed and put somewhere in the contribution guide.

Georg
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=nwWL
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From amk at amk.ca  Sun Apr 18 21:49:09 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:49:09 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg]  Mercurial mirror
In-Reply-To: <h2sd34314101004180042hb09c13b6p7f71066c5f6edcad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2ld34314101004160107o3c4ee37ve243967c9a92c803@mail.gmail.com>
	<s2v1afaf6161004161337i364fa6dft6cececd1b7c255e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BC8E5FC.3000600@python.org> <4BC8E9C8.4030001@python.org>
	<o2hd34314101004170212ne6d3cd01tc07909d58f07d0af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BC99787.7060203@v.loewis.de>
	<h2sd34314101004180042hb09c13b6p7f71066c5f6edcad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100418194909.GA5317@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

> ... I am trying to change this by attracting more people,
> discussing problems to create an environment to make contributions
> easier and more fun.

There's some history in the Python community that makes some of us
doubtful of technical fixes to increase contributions.

For a long time the documentation was written using LaTeX, and people
kept saying that LaTeX was a barrier to contributions.  Eventually
Georg picked up the task, wrote Sphinx, and did the work to convert to
that format.  Sphinx has certainly been a success -- it's more
maintainable, produces better HTML output, and has been adopted by
dozens of other projects (I think 2-3 projects picked up the LaTeX
toolchain) -- but I don't think it's led to a notable increase in the
number of casual contributors or drive-by patches to the
documentation.

Therefore, I'm pretty cynical about attracting more contributions by
reorganizing the toolchain; Subversion vs. Mercurial seem largely the
same in the level of dedication required (high).  It seems better to
pick up and implement the idea of PHP-style commenting on the docs, or
rewrite the home page to be more inviting, or any of a number of other
tasks.

--amk

From amk at amk.ca  Sun Apr 18 22:38:33 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 16:38:33 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Mailing list memberships moved
Message-ID: <20100418203833.GA5449@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

I've now carried out the move from pydotorg to pydotorg-www.

pydotorg now has 21 subscribers, the people listed in my e-mail of
April 13th.  These addresses have also been subscribed to
pydotorg-www; if you don't want to be on the -www mailing list, please
let me know, or you can unsubscribe through the web at
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www>.

pydotorg-www now has 119 subscribers.  Followup-to has been set to
that list.

--amk

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Apr 19 03:50:08 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:50:08 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Pydotorg] Mailing list memberships moved
In-Reply-To: <20100418203833.GA5449@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <20100418203833.GA5449@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <20100419015008.GB26737@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>
> pydotorg-www now has 119 subscribers.  Followup-to has been set to
> that list.

Thanks for your work!
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From rich at richleland.com  Mon Apr 19 15:28:55 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:28:55 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
Message-ID: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all - as promised in the pydotorg list I've posted some documentation for
the project plan for python.org. The current goal is to generate a proposal
for the PSF board for enhancements to the various python.org sites. In these
docs I've outlined a plan that includes goals and research needed. It's too
early to think about implementation at this point and the technical details
would impede forward progress.

Throughout the project I'll need a combination of the guidance of the
current pydotorg volunteers, feedback from the community, and patience as I
familiarize myself with python.org ecosystem.

A few guidelines I am personally going to try to adhere to:

1. Draw from the experience, history and hard work of the pydotorg
admins/team
2. Don't make anything more difficult to use/update
3. Don't try to do everything all at once, start small, take steps
4. Keep the process as open as possible
5. Don't get caught up in details that keep the project from moving forward
6. Remember that we are all volunteers

I'd like to think of this as a fluid project but I need to tie down some
dates for getting the various aspects of the research phase done. I'll be
outlining that timeline in the docs in the next week or so.

In the meantime please take a look at the docs. I'll be updating them as the
project moves along.
http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/

Feel free to contact me at any time. I'm looking forward to helping out.

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424
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From amk at amk.ca  Mon Apr 19 16:41:32 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:41:32 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 09:28:55AM -0400, Richard Leland wrote:
> In these
> docs I've outlined a plan that includes goals and research needed.

A suggested additional goal: security, especially of the Python source
code and the tarballs on PyPI.

https://blogs.apache.org/infra/entry/apache_org_04_09_2010 describes a
recent attack on apache.org in detail.  The attack seems to have been
targeted at ASF specifically, though the motivation is unknown
(trojaning code releases or SVN repositories? getting passwords of
developer who work for companies of interest).  Considering the number
of people who complain that when PyPI is down, they can't build
things, I think a fair number of build/installation processes download
things from PyPI and install them, so we could find PSF servers the
target of a similar attack.

--amk

From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Apr 19 22:51:36 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:51:36 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>

> https://blogs.apache.org/infra/entry/apache_org_04_09_2010 describes a
> recent attack on apache.org in detail.  The attack seems to have been
> targeted at ASF specifically, though the motivation is unknown
> (trojaning code releases or SVN repositories? getting passwords of
> developer who work for companies of interest).  Considering the number
> of people who complain that when PyPI is down, they can't build
> things, I think a fair number of build/installation processes download
> things from PyPI and install them, so we could find PSF servers the
> target of a similar attack.

I don't think this should primarily belong to Richard's plan. Instead,
if you have a specific idea of how this can be solved, please post it
to catalog-sig.

About the only approach I can think of is PGP signing by the actual
package authors, which is already supported in PyPI (but not in
setuptools/distribute, AFAIK). We could strengthen this with our own web
of trust within the community of PyPI users, which would take
some time to setup. We could also encourage the use of CACert user
certificates for code signing in stead/in addition.

Regards,
Martin

From techtonik at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 23:24:38 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:24:38 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:51 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>
> About the only approach I can think of is PGP signing by the actual
> package authors, which is already supported in PyPI (but not in
> setuptools/distribute, AFAIK). We could strengthen this with our own web
> of trust within the community of PyPI users, which would take
> some time to setup. We could also encourage the use of CACert user
> certificates for code signing in stead/in addition.

IIRC the biggest hole with PyPI and setuptools for now is that it
doesn't allow to execute "setup.py bdist register upload" without
saving password in clear form on user system.

CCed to catalog-sig. Let's see if it will bounce.
-- 
anatoly t.

From mfoord at python.org  Mon Apr 19 23:49:12 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:49:12 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>
	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>

On 19/04/2010 23:24, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:51 PM, "Martin v. L?wis"<martin at v.loewis.de>  wrote:
>    
>> About the only approach I can think of is PGP signing by the actual
>> package authors, which is already supported in PyPI (but not in
>> setuptools/distribute, AFAIK). We could strengthen this with our own web
>> of trust within the community of PyPI users, which would take
>> some time to setup. We could also encourage the use of CACert user
>> certificates for code signing in stead/in addition.
>>      
> IIRC the biggest hole with PyPI and setuptools for now is that it
> doesn't allow to execute "setup.py bdist register upload" without
> saving password in clear form on user system.
>    

Tarek Ziade wants to integrate the keyring project (using your system 
keyring) with distutils:

     http://pypi.python.org/pypi/keyring

This project is the result of last year's google summer of code. Not 
sure what the status of the integration is but I expect it will be part 
of disutils2.

> CCed to catalog-sig. Let's see if it will bounce.
>    

My guess is that you'll need to be subscribed to post to that list...

Michael Foord

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From mfoord at python.org  Mon Apr 19 23:51:20 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:51:20 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>

On 19/04/2010 23:49, Michael Foord wrote:
> On 19/04/2010 23:24, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:51 PM, "Martin v. 
>> L?wis"<martin at v.loewis.de>  wrote:
>>> About the only approach I can think of is PGP signing by the actual
>>> package authors, which is already supported in PyPI (but not in
>>> setuptools/distribute, AFAIK). We could strengthen this with our own 
>>> web
>>> of trust within the community of PyPI users, which would take
>>> some time to setup. We could also encourage the use of CACert user
>>> certificates for code signing in stead/in addition.
>> IIRC the biggest hole with PyPI and setuptools for now is that it
>> doesn't allow to execute "setup.py bdist register upload" without
>> saving password in clear form on user system.
>
> Tarek Ziade wants to integrate the keyring project (using your system 
> keyring) with distutils:
>
>     http://pypi.python.org/pypi/keyring
>
> This project is the result of last year's google summer of code. Not 
> sure what the status of the integration is but I expect it will be 
> part of disutils2.
>

None of this has anything to do with the proposed revamp of python.org 
of course. :-)

All the best,

Michael Foord


>> CCed to catalog-sig. Let's see if it will bounce.
>
> My guess is that you'll need to be subscribed to post to that list...
>
> Michael Foord
>


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Apr 19 23:55:35 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:55:35 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>
	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BCCD157.1070604@v.loewis.de>

>> IIRC the biggest hole with PyPI and setuptools for now is that it
>> doesn't allow to execute "setup.py bdist register upload" without
>> saving password in clear form on user system.
>>    
> 
> Tarek Ziade wants to integrate the keyring project (using your system
> keyring) with distutils:
> 
>     http://pypi.python.org/pypi/keyring
> 
> This project is the result of last year's google summer of code. Not
> sure what the status of the integration is but I expect it will be part
> of disutils2.

For a number of months now, PyPI supports registration and upload over
SSH, allowing any of the ssh-agent implementations to be used.

Unfortunately, nobody has tought distribute to use this protocol yet.

Regards,
Martin

From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Apr 19 23:57:29 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:57:29 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org> <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>

> None of this has anything to do with the proposed revamp of python.org
> of course. :-)

In a sense, it does: AMK suggested that security should be part of the
requirements for a revamp, with a view on distutils/setuptools, which
should only download "trusted" code. So in this respect, the revamp
would involve changes to these tools, as well (if this issue is actually
resolved as part of the revamp).

Regards,
Martin

From rich at richleland.com  Tue Apr 20 00:05:18 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:05:18 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>
	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org> <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>
	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <o2m8e236d371004191505u76ba84dfwa34b2d2c8ddcebcb@mail.gmail.com>

Good to know about this - seems like if we're going to put the effort into
figuring out what the revamp entails we should add this to the list of
goals. Could be a good opportunity to look at other parts of
python.org(besides PyPI) to see if there are any other security issues
we should be
thinking about as well.

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:57 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>wrote:

> > None of this has anything to do with the proposed revamp of python.org
> > of course. :-)
>
> In a sense, it does: AMK suggested that security should be part of the
> requirements for a revamp, with a view on distutils/setuptools, which
> should only download "trusted" code. So in this respect, the revamp
> would involve changes to these tools, as well (if this issue is actually
> resolved as part of the revamp).
>
> Regards,
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
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From rich at richleland.com  Tue Apr 20 00:17:44 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:17:44 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Stephan - definitely useful! I couldn't agree more that the presentation
is extremely important. The goals in the docs aren't in any specific order.
Right now they are all of equal weight. When we get to the implementation
stage I think we'll probably have to prioritize and break the project into
phases.

Keep the feedback coming!

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com>wrote:

> Richard Leland wrote:
>
>> Hi all - as promised in the pydotorg list I've posted some documentation
>> for the project plan for python.org <http://python.org>. The current goal
>> is to generate a proposal for the PSF board for enhancements to the various
>> python.org <http://python.org> sites. In these docs I've outlined a plan
>> that includes goals and research needed. It's too early to think about
>> implementation at this point and the technical details would impede forward
>> progress.
>>
>> Throughout the project I'll need a combination of the guidance of the
>> current pydotorg volunteers, feedback from the community, and patience as I
>> familiarize myself with python.org <http://python.org> ecosystem.
>>
>>
>> A few guidelines I am personally going to try to adhere to:
>>
>> 1. Draw from the experience, history and hard work of the pydotorg
>> admins/team
>> 2. Don't make anything more difficult to use/update
>> 3. Don't try to do everything all at once, start small, take steps
>> 4. Keep the process as open as possible
>> 5. Don't get caught up in details that keep the project from moving
>> forward
>> 6. Remember that we are all volunteers
>>
>> I'd like to think of this as a fluid project but I need to tie down some
>> dates for getting the various aspects of the research phase done. I'll be
>> outlining that timeline in the docs in the next week or so.
>>
>> In the meantime please take a look at the docs. I'll be updating them as
>> the project moves along.
>> http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/
>>
>
> Thanks for working on this!  Some comments:
>
> Perhaps move "Presentation" to first in the list of priorities?  The other
> stuff is important too
> but the hard work of rethinking and reorganizing content, making the site
> better at drawing
> in new users, and updating the look of the site shouldn't be last on the
> list.
>
> A good example of the problem is http://python.org/community/ where there
> are two
> huge lists, one as sub-menu and another in the body.
> http://python.org/psf/ is another
> example.
>
> It's possible some of the clutter should have its own distinct site (like
> psf.python.org
> really could stand on its own, with a Donate link from every other
> python.org site). When you think about user intent/goal, they are likely
> either looking for downloads,
> or docs, or info on getting involved ("community") or  maybe about the PSF
> but
> they don't really need all of those at once and they don't need to see all
> the random
> stuff in these long lists when the most common actions are downloading,
> looking
> up docs, or perhaps entering the site as a prospective new user (which the
> site
> currently does not support well).  The more detailed random stuff in those
> lists could
> be moved down a level somehow so it's there but not immediately in the face
> of
> someone going to a top-level page, or at least have the top of the page
> have boxes
> with the commonly sought-after actions/content.
>
> Then there is wiki.python.org, which in spite of (or perhaps because of)
> low barrier to
> entry for making changes is a mess also and it's confusing having some
> content on
> python.org and other on wiki.python.org.  That shouldn't be forgotten in
> trying to
> reorganize content.  Perhaps wiki.python.org is the place to push all the
> random
> stuff in the long lists.  Or perhaps the goal is to largely replace it, if
> the new system
> allows an easier way to make edits to the main site(s).  In that case, it
> might just
> contain the more esoteric stuff where the wiki approach makes sense and
> wiki mess
> isn't a big deal.
>
> Anyway, I hope this is useful.  Good luck with it!
>
> - Stephan
>
>
>
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From paul at boddie.org.uk  Tue Apr 20 00:50:55 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:50:55 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>
	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Tuesday 20 April 2010 00:17:44 Richard Leland wrote:
> Hi Stephan - definitely useful! I couldn't agree more that the presentation
> is extremely important. The goals in the docs aren't in any specific order.
> Right now they are all of equal weight. When we get to the implementation
> stage I think we'll probably have to prioritize and break the project into
> phases.
>
> Keep the feedback coming!

Take a look at the following document:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/MarketingPython

It's a bit verbose, but it covers quite a few reflections I had after the last 
python.org redesign.

Paul

From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Apr 20 07:53:05 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:53:05 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <o2m8e236d371004191505u76ba84dfwa34b2d2c8ddcebcb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	
	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>	
	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org> <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>	
	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
	<o2m8e236d371004191505u76ba84dfwa34b2d2c8ddcebcb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCD4141.7060008@v.loewis.de>

Richard Leland wrote:
> Good to know about this - seems like if we're going to put the effort
> into figuring out what the revamp entails we should add this to the list
> of goals. Could be a good opportunity to look at other parts of
> python.org <http://python.org> (besides PyPI) to see if there are any
> other security issues we should be thinking about as well.

For Python binaries proper: they are PGP-signed, so in principle, it
would be possible for users to verify that they have not been tampered
with - although I doubt many people actually run this check. For the MSI
file, there is also a Verisign code signature on it, which Windows will
check (although people might not worry if it stops being available after
a hijack).

Regards,
Martin

From amk at amk.ca  Tue Apr 20 15:37:34 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:37:34 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>
	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org> <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>
	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:57:29PM +0200, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> In a sense, it does: AMK suggested that security should be part of the
> requirements for a revamp, with a view on distutils/setuptools, which
> should only download "trusted" code. So in this respect, the revamp

I'm also concerned about the SVN/Hg repository; if there was a
break-in on dinsdale, how would we go about ensuring nothing had been
slipped into the source code?  GPG-signed tarballs are fairly easily
checked, and Hg's use of hashing and distributed copies may make it
easy to find changes there.

I'd argue to have a separate download site that's very small and
static, and lives on the same server as SVN/Hg.  New dynamic stuff
would be run on a different server, or in a VM, so that a break-in
wouldn't risk the primary asset, the code.

--amk

From barry at python.org  Tue Apr 20 16:16:30 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:16:30 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>
	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org> <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>
	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
	<20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <20100420101630.5ead57da@heresy>

On Apr 20, 2010, at 09:37 AM, A.M. Kuchling wrote:

>I'm also concerned about the SVN/Hg repository; if there was a
>break-in on dinsdale, how would we go about ensuring nothing had been
>slipped into the source code?  GPG-signed tarballs are fairly easily
>checked, and Hg's use of hashing and distributed copies may make it
>easy to find changes there.

I don't know whether Mercurial has the same feature that Bazaar has, where
each revision can be signed, locally, on commit.  I always enable that for
everything I do.  I also don't know whether that can be enforced (e.g. ensure
on the server that on push, every revision is signed by a known gpg key).
That may not prevent corruption after a break-in, but it would make
post-attack analysis much easier.

-Barry
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From dirkjan at ochtman.nl  Tue Apr 20 16:29:03 2010
From: dirkjan at ochtman.nl (Dirkjan Ochtman)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:29:03 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100420101630.5ead57da@heresy>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de> 
	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org> <4BCCD058.5050509@python.org> 
	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
	<20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> 
	<20100420101630.5ead57da@heresy>
Message-ID: <r2mea2499da1004200729v2640ffa7r254f9fafde9fe738@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 16:16, Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org> wrote:
> I don't know whether Mercurial has the same feature that Bazaar has, where
> each revision can be signed, locally, on commit. ?I always enable that for

There is an extension to help sign revisions on each commit, certainly.

> everything I do. ?I also don't know whether that can be enforced (e.g. ensure
> on the server that on push, every revision is signed by a known gpg key).
> That may not prevent corruption after a break-in, but it would make
> post-attack analysis much easier.

Enforcing something in a hook wouldn't be very hard.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Apr 20 21:57:26 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:57:26 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>
	<4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>
	<20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <4BCE0726.2070006@v.loewis.de>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:57:29PM +0200, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> In a sense, it does: AMK suggested that security should be part of the
>> requirements for a revamp, with a view on distutils/setuptools, which
>> should only download "trusted" code. So in this respect, the revamp
> 
> I'm also concerned about the SVN/Hg repository; if there was a
> break-in on dinsdale, how would we go about ensuring nothing had been
> slipped into the source code?  GPG-signed tarballs are fairly easily
> checked, and Hg's use of hashing and distributed copies may make it
> easy to find changes there.
> 
> I'd argue to have a separate download site that's very small and
> static, and lives on the same server as SVN/Hg.  New dynamic stuff
> would be run on a different server, or in a VM, so that a break-in
> wouldn't risk the primary asset, the code.

Ah, if that's your concern, and solution (i.e. avoid dynamic web sites
on machines having critical code), then I'm with you. That's certainly
desirable, and also within scope of this project.

Regards,
Martin

From steve at holdenweb.com  Tue Apr 20 22:12:52 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:12:52 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCE0726.2070006@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>	<4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>	<20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4BCE0726.2070006@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BCE0AC4.7080000@holdenweb.com>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:57:29PM +0200, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>>> In a sense, it does: AMK suggested that security should be part of the
>>> requirements for a revamp, with a view on distutils/setuptools, which
>>> should only download "trusted" code. So in this respect, the revamp
>> I'm also concerned about the SVN/Hg repository; if there was a
>> break-in on dinsdale, how would we go about ensuring nothing had been
>> slipped into the source code?  GPG-signed tarballs are fairly easily
>> checked, and Hg's use of hashing and distributed copies may make it
>> easy to find changes there.
>>
>> I'd argue to have a separate download site that's very small and
>> static, and lives on the same server as SVN/Hg.  New dynamic stuff
>> would be run on a different server, or in a VM, so that a break-in
>> wouldn't risk the primary asset, the code.
> 
> Ah, if that's your concern, and solution (i.e. avoid dynamic web sites
> on machines having critical code), then I'm with you. That's certainly
> desirable, and also within scope of this project.

I certainly can't see any really good reason why the distributions have
to be inside a dynamic web site. And as far as the code goes, the more
protection the better.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Apr 20 22:26:00 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:26:00 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCE0AC4.7080000@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100419144132.GA4164@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>	<4BCCC258.9080307@v.loewis.de>	<y2td34314101004191424xed2bbd7dv12ab6ed521190f62@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCCCFD8.3090002@python.org>	<4BCCD058.5050509@python.org>	<4BCCD1C9.8030702@v.loewis.de>	<20100420133734.GA3624@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4BCE0726.2070006@v.loewis.de> <4BCE0AC4.7080000@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4BCE0DD8.9080608@v.loewis.de>

> I certainly can't see any really good reason why the distributions have
> to be inside a dynamic web site. And as far as the code goes, the more
> protection the better.

It's easier from a management point of view; it's actually the way in
which the current site works (although much of the site is static pages,
which is a good thing in this respect).

Regards,
Martin

From catherine.devlin at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 20:58:18 2010
From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:58:18 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] for "Conferences and Workshops" page
Message-ID: <u2s6523e39a1004201158p18628a6bpcb63d0d1c2bc6836@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.python.org/community/workshops/

Could you add PyOhio (http://pyohio.org/)?  Thanks!

-- 
- Catherine
http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/
*** PyOhio 2010 * July 31 - Aug 1 * Columbus, OH * pyohio.org ***
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From mfoord at python.org  Tue Apr 20 23:30:16 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:30:16 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] for "Conferences and Workshops" page
In-Reply-To: <u2s6523e39a1004201158p18628a6bpcb63d0d1c2bc6836@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2s6523e39a1004201158p18628a6bpcb63d0d1c2bc6836@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCE1CE8.30000@python.org>

On 20/04/2010 20:58, Catherine Devlin wrote:
> http://www.python.org/community/workshops/
>
> Could you add PyOhio (http://pyohio.org/)?  Thanks!

Hi Catherine,

Done. It should show up shortly.

All the best,

Michael

>
> -- 
> - Catherine
> http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/
> *** PyOhio 2010 * July 31 - Aug 1 * Columbus, OH * pyohio.org 
> <http://pyohio.org> ***
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/

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From p at state-of-mind.de  Tue Apr 20 22:56:10 2010
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:56:10 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>
	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>

* Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk>:
> On Tuesday 20 April 2010 00:17:44 Richard Leland wrote:
> > Hi Stephan - definitely useful! I couldn't agree more that the presentation
> > is extremely important. The goals in the docs aren't in any specific order.
> > Right now they are all of equal weight. When we get to the implementation
> > stage I think we'll probably have to prioritize and break the project into
> > phases.
> >
> > Keep the feedback coming!
> 
> Take a look at the following document:
> 
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/MarketingPython
> 
> It's a bit verbose, but it covers quite a few reflections I had after the last 
> python.org redesign.

A good read. I'd like to add my two cent from my experience as information
architect:

- The website and the website experience are placeholders for the product i.e.
  Python. If we state that Python is this and that e.g. easier to use, better
  to read etc. then the Website must be that way too. The website as a
  placeholder must prove the Python promise.
- Don't tell people what Python will do (=work) for them. Tell them what they
  will get (=result), instead. Though there are many people out there who use
  Python because of itself, the majority will use it to gain something else.
  The "something else" should be communicated. If people buy the story, they
  will start using Python because they want to reach the goal behind Python.
  Market Python with goals people reached using Python.
- Don't try to satisfy any stakeholders interests! Stick to a few, strong
  stakeholders. Make it a straight story. Implement core features, content
  etc. Measure and improve. Drop things that don't work. Over time this will
  create a sound and solid base that allows to bring in other, less important
  stakeholders.
- Compared to email, chat and other communication forms websites are
  monologues. Write "mobilizing information" so people need not start a
  dialogue in a monologue media - they only will if they cannot avoid.

p at rick

-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563


From steve at holdenweb.com  Wed Apr 21 04:09:27 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:09:27 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>

Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
> * Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk>:
>> On Tuesday 20 April 2010 00:17:44 Richard Leland wrote:
>>> Hi Stephan - definitely useful! I couldn't agree more that the presentation
>>> is extremely important. The goals in the docs aren't in any specific order.
>>> Right now they are all of equal weight. When we get to the implementation
>>> stage I think we'll probably have to prioritize and break the project into
>>> phases.
>>>
>>> Keep the feedback coming!
>> Take a look at the following document:
>>
>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/MarketingPython
>>
>> It's a bit verbose, but it covers quite a few reflections I had after the last 
>> python.org redesign.
> 
> A good read. I'd like to add my two cent from my experience as information
> architect:
> 
> - The website and the website experience are placeholders for the product i.e.
>   Python. If we state that Python is this and that e.g. easier to use, better
>   to read etc. then the Website must be that way too. The website as a
>   placeholder must prove the Python promise.
> - Don't tell people what Python will do (=work) for them. Tell them what they
>   will get (=result), instead. Though there are many people out there who use
>   Python because of itself, the majority will use it to gain something else.
>   The "something else" should be communicated. If people buy the story, they
>   will start using Python because they want to reach the goal behind Python.
>   Market Python with goals people reached using Python.
> - Don't try to satisfy any stakeholders interests! Stick to a few, strong
>   stakeholders. Make it a straight story. Implement core features, content
>   etc. Measure and improve. Drop things that don't work. Over time this will
>   create a sound and solid base that allows to bring in other, less important
>   stakeholders.
> - Compared to email, chat and other communication forms websites are
>   monologues. Write "mobilizing information" so people need not start a
>   dialogue in a monologue media - they only will if they cannot avoid.
> 

Personally I think that you make some good points. We should be looking
more critically at the whole point of the web site, but it's obvious
that there's some disagreement in the Python community about this point
of view, Just look at the comments on this blog entry:

  http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2009/02/sell-sizzle-not-sausage.html

I think a lot of geeks just don't like "marketing", not matter what the
purpose.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From p at state-of-mind.de  Wed Apr 21 06:56:08 2010
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:56:08 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>
	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>
	<4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <20100421045608.GA1647@state-of-mind.de>

* Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com>:
> Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
> > * Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk>:
> >> On Tuesday 20 April 2010 00:17:44 Richard Leland wrote:
> >>> Hi Stephan - definitely useful! I couldn't agree more that the presentation
> >>> is extremely important. The goals in the docs aren't in any specific order.
> >>> Right now they are all of equal weight. When we get to the implementation
> >>> stage I think we'll probably have to prioritize and break the project into
> >>> phases.
> >>>
> >>> Keep the feedback coming!
> >> Take a look at the following document:
> >>
> >> http://wiki.python.org/moin/MarketingPython
> >>
> >> It's a bit verbose, but it covers quite a few reflections I had after the last 
> >> python.org redesign.
> > 
> > A good read. I'd like to add my two cent from my experience as information
> > architect:
> > 
> > - The website and the website experience are placeholders for the product i.e.
> >   Python. If we state that Python is this and that e.g. easier to use, better
> >   to read etc. then the Website must be that way too. The website as a
> >   placeholder must prove the Python promise.
> > - Don't tell people what Python will do (=work) for them. Tell them what they
> >   will get (=result), instead. Though there are many people out there who use
> >   Python because of itself, the majority will use it to gain something else.
> >   The "something else" should be communicated. If people buy the story, they
> >   will start using Python because they want to reach the goal behind Python.
> >   Market Python with goals people reached using Python.
> > - Don't try to satisfy any stakeholders interests! Stick to a few, strong
> >   stakeholders. Make it a straight story. Implement core features, content
> >   etc. Measure and improve. Drop things that don't work. Over time this will
> >   create a sound and solid base that allows to bring in other, less important
> >   stakeholders.
> > - Compared to email, chat and other communication forms websites are
> >   monologues. Write "mobilizing information" so people need not start a
> >   dialogue in a monologue media - they only will if they cannot avoid.
> > 
> 
> Personally I think that you make some good points. We should be looking
> more critically at the whole point of the web site, but it's obvious
> that there's some disagreement in the Python community about this point
> of view, Just look at the comments on this blog entry:
> 
>   http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2009/02/sell-sizzle-not-sausage.html
> 
> I think a lot of geeks just don't like "marketing", not matter what the
> purpose.

So do I! And I agree that "Neutral descriptions are far better than publicity
guff." (cite from your blog entry comments)

Looking at myself and at my open source colleagues/friends I note a stance
that says: "No matter what you tell me, I am the one in charge and I am going
to do it my way. I will decide. I am out the moment I note you are trying to
manipulate me."

I believe that's the typical association when people tell they don't like
"marketing". They say "marketing", but think "manipulation". And I agree. I
get to see, hear, even eat (!) more blown up vaporware than I get to see
companies delivering their promise.

That's why I added "show the results" to the list above. They demonstrate the
promise was kept. Of course, one still can be very loud and pushy about it,
and people will get irritated because its abnormally loud and will start to
doubt again. It's a thin line and it takes experience to get it right.

On another note: What's wrong about being proud, if you get the tone right?
There's a thin line here too. Some rather tend to brawl than tell you
something they have managed to acchieve. But hey, who doesn't want to be proud
about what he/she does? Who's not enchanted by people that are proud about
what they do? Who, if not the Open Source people, are not proud that it worked
their way, following their codex of honour?

I guess what people dislike are superlatives and absolutism. There are
situations where I prefer my Windows 7 machine to my Ubuntu Lucid (especially
during Alpha testing...), simply because I have the right tool for the right
job. Do something very american. Follow the constitution and make me "an
enlightened citizenry". Tell me the pros and cons (and don't forget the
cons!). Let me decide.

Open Source is a lot about openess and transparency. I guess if we do
transparent marketing, we can be trusted.

p at rick

P.S.
And now I will get another cup of tea. Good morning, by the way... ;)



-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563


From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Apr 21 08:13:21 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:13:21 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>
	<4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4BCE9781.6030605@v.loewis.de>

> I think a lot of geeks just don't like "marketing", not matter what the
> purpose.

I don't think "not like" describes it correctly. Me, personally, I don't
care about that aspect of the site. I want python.org to be the place
were people download Python releases, report bugs, post information they
find useful, collaborate, and learn about events that take place.
Whether or not the site also "markets" Python is of little relevance to
me. Only if the marketing gets in the way of the other functions I start
not liking it.

Regards,
Martin

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Wed Apr 21 15:32:20 2010
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:32:20 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCE9781.6030605@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>	<4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
	<4BCE9781.6030605@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BCEFE64.5000605@wingware.com>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>> I think a lot of geeks just don't like "marketing", not matter what the
>> purpose.
>>     
>
> I don't think "not like" describes it correctly. Me, personally, I don't
> care about that aspect of the site. I want python.org to be the place
> were people download Python releases, report bugs, post information they
> find useful, collaborate, and learn about events that take place.
> Whether or not the site also "markets" Python is of little relevance to
> me. Only if the marketing gets in the way of the other functions I start
> not liking it.
>   

The most effective marketing is low-key word of mouth and other kinds of
informal helpful referrals.  The kind of stuff that people wouldn't even 
really
think of as marketing.  This will mostly happen entirely outside of the
website.

The website should be accessible and helpful to people that receive such
word of mouth and want to learn about and start using Python.  It should
try doing that for a variety of audiences.

I don't think a site that tries to "sell" will work well, not even if you
target corporate IT types (or whatever you want to call decision makers at
larger companies).

I'd go so far as to say the current site tries to "sell" too much (in the
right column on home page and About area).  I helped write and/or collect
a lot of that stuff.  I'm not sure how useful it really is, or at least 
quotes and
success stories are not as useful as making Download and Getting Started
info more obvious.  The stuff in About is a bit better in that it's more 
factual
but the presentation is still trying too hard to "sell" and I think 
that's a problem.

Here's an amusing failure to "sell":  Look at the "About Ruby's Growth"
section on http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/about/ -- what it shows in the graph
since 2006 doesn't look like growth to me!  Of course someone set this 
up and
forgot about it and the graph just keeps auto-updating.

- Stephan




From skip at pobox.com  Wed Apr 21 17:11:10 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:11:10 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>


My feedback on Rich's outline document so far:

    * (Agility) I don't think the site content is difficult to update.  It
      is in a fairly simple to read/write text format.  Except when brain
      cramps get in my way, updating the site generally involves little more
      than editing the text and checking in the changed file(s).  Switching
      to some kind of through-the-web editing system would be massive
      overkill in my opinion.

      As for the appearance, I lean more toward the simple Google end of the
      spectrum when it comes to website appearance, and I detest websites
      which think it's ok to spew out JavaScript or Flash animations which
      peg my computer's CPU.  I do, however, think that whatever appearance
      you settle on should be used in the wiki as well.  They are two sides
      of the same coin in my mind.

    * (Involvement) I agree that more involvement by the community would be
      beneficial.  Frequently when the site has lagged behind content-wise I
      think it's because it contained content which was naturally dynamic.
      In several instances we have moved content to the wiki so the
      community can keep that content up-to-date.

      Regarding the wiki, while more community involvement is worthwhile,
      wikis can devolve into little more than a "bag of pages".  I think
      some effort to provide overall structure to the wiki would be
      worthwhile.  Deciding if/when to cull data from the wiki would also be
      helpful.  (For example, frequently people create personal home pages
      on the wiki which contain nothing more than their email address - I
      guess that's the default with the home page template.)

      There are certain parts of the site which I think should not be turned
      over to a broader audience, however.  In particular, download/release
      content, news and job postings should be fairly tightly controlled in
      my mind.  I hope the reasons for tight control of download/release
      content are obvious.

      The job board seems to be a well-used part of the site, at least based
      on the number of posting requests I've seen and notes about taking
      down postings because positions have been filled.  There is a fair
      amount of give-and-take at times between Martin and the people posting
      job announcements to help the submitters get their posts into
      reasonable form and with appropriate content.  (At least once a month
      I would suspect that postings with no apparent Python relevance are
      sent to the jobs address.)  The job board is a good marketing tool for
      Python the language.  I think it would be a shame if the high quality
      of the content was diluted by lack of oversight.

      News postings fall into a similar category as a marketing tool.  "Wow,
      look at all the Python events!"  There is limited space on the site
      for news items.  There appears to be room for five to seven items
      "above the fold" given the current layout.  While I think it would be
      nice if more events could be posted, that is limited real estate.
      OTOH, maybe all news items could be submitted and will go out in the
      RSS feed, while only the most important are tagged for display on the
      website.

      Another area where we could use some help is in squashing/redirecting
      old content.  Fairly frequently email arrives at the webmaster address
      referring to old pages from previous incarnations of the website which
      have broken links or are simply badly outdated.  In almost all cases I
      think we should redirect to a page in the current website or wiki.
      Simply identifying old content would be a significant project.  It
      would be great if the larger community could help identify old pages
      and a suitable redirect target.  The folks who twiddle the bits on the
      web server config could set up the necessary redirection and take down
      the old page.

    * (Localization) I would like to see some way to highlight local user
      group meetings.  I realize that's somewhat at odds with my comments
      above about news items.  It might be worthwhile to also offer storage/
      display/indexing space for presentations from local user group talks.

    * (Extensibility) I'm not sure what you're after here.  I think you need
      to expand, maybe give an example.

    * (Accessibility) Traditionally, aside from the main Python tutorial
      (which assumes some programming background) tutorial information for
      complete novice programmers has been left up to the broader community,
      then referenced from the main site or the wiki.

      (Thinking out loud here...)

      - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
        writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
        language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.

      - Allowing the community to annotate the online documentation (though
        still keeping the actual documentation content "in-house" - sort of
        midway between a closed site and fully editable wiki) might be an
        excellent way to improve it.  Users could point out errors, add
        examples, maybe even easily suggest ways to restructure signficant
        parts for easier use.

      - Would Google App Engine be a suitable environment for an interactive
        Python exploratorium?

    * (Presentation) As I indicated above I prefer a "lighter" look and
      feel.  Sidebars can be handy, but we seem to have taken them to an
      extreme.  With both constant-width left and right sidebars on the
      front page you lose anywhere from one third to one half of the space
      available to display actual content.  That said, I am all for
      highlighting activities such as GSoC (maybe displayed as a thin banner
      across the top of the page?).  I think you could move the "... uses
      Python" box to the bottom of the left-hand sidebar, eliminate the
      "What they are saying..." altogether, and merge the "Using Python
      For..." box into the left-hand sidebar as a dynamic hierarchical menu.

Skip

From rich at richleland.com  Wed Apr 21 17:21:53 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:21:53 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <s2j8e236d371004210821l302e291fh1bb11819c121f667@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all the feedback Skip! I'll read through and respond/apply to the
plan where appropriate.

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:11 AM, <skip at pobox.com> wrote:

>
> My feedback on Rich's outline document so far:
>
>    * (Agility) I don't think the site content is difficult to update.  It
>      is in a fairly simple to read/write text format.  Except when brain
>      cramps get in my way, updating the site generally involves little more
>      than editing the text and checking in the changed file(s).  Switching
>      to some kind of through-the-web editing system would be massive
>      overkill in my opinion.
>
>      As for the appearance, I lean more toward the simple Google end of the
>      spectrum when it comes to website appearance, and I detest websites
>      which think it's ok to spew out JavaScript or Flash animations which
>      peg my computer's CPU.  I do, however, think that whatever appearance
>      you settle on should be used in the wiki as well.  They are two sides
>      of the same coin in my mind.
>
>    * (Involvement) I agree that more involvement by the community would be
>      beneficial.  Frequently when the site has lagged behind content-wise I
>      think it's because it contained content which was naturally dynamic.
>      In several instances we have moved content to the wiki so the
>      community can keep that content up-to-date.
>
>      Regarding the wiki, while more community involvement is worthwhile,
>      wikis can devolve into little more than a "bag of pages".  I think
>      some effort to provide overall structure to the wiki would be
>      worthwhile.  Deciding if/when to cull data from the wiki would also be
>      helpful.  (For example, frequently people create personal home pages
>      on the wiki which contain nothing more than their email address - I
>      guess that's the default with the home page template.)
>
>      There are certain parts of the site which I think should not be turned
>      over to a broader audience, however.  In particular, download/release
>      content, news and job postings should be fairly tightly controlled in
>      my mind.  I hope the reasons for tight control of download/release
>      content are obvious.
>
>      The job board seems to be a well-used part of the site, at least based
>      on the number of posting requests I've seen and notes about taking
>      down postings because positions have been filled.  There is a fair
>      amount of give-and-take at times between Martin and the people posting
>      job announcements to help the submitters get their posts into
>      reasonable form and with appropriate content.  (At least once a month
>      I would suspect that postings with no apparent Python relevance are
>      sent to the jobs address.)  The job board is a good marketing tool for
>      Python the language.  I think it would be a shame if the high quality
>      of the content was diluted by lack of oversight.
>
>      News postings fall into a similar category as a marketing tool.  "Wow,
>      look at all the Python events!"  There is limited space on the site
>      for news items.  There appears to be room for five to seven items
>      "above the fold" given the current layout.  While I think it would be
>      nice if more events could be posted, that is limited real estate.
>      OTOH, maybe all news items could be submitted and will go out in the
>      RSS feed, while only the most important are tagged for display on the
>      website.
>
>      Another area where we could use some help is in squashing/redirecting
>      old content.  Fairly frequently email arrives at the webmaster address
>      referring to old pages from previous incarnations of the website which
>      have broken links or are simply badly outdated.  In almost all cases I
>      think we should redirect to a page in the current website or wiki.
>      Simply identifying old content would be a significant project.  It
>      would be great if the larger community could help identify old pages
>      and a suitable redirect target.  The folks who twiddle the bits on the
>      web server config could set up the necessary redirection and take down
>      the old page.
>
>    * (Localization) I would like to see some way to highlight local user
>      group meetings.  I realize that's somewhat at odds with my comments
>      above about news items.  It might be worthwhile to also offer storage/
>      display/indexing space for presentations from local user group talks.
>
>    * (Extensibility) I'm not sure what you're after here.  I think you need
>      to expand, maybe give an example.
>
>    * (Accessibility) Traditionally, aside from the main Python tutorial
>      (which assumes some programming background) tutorial information for
>      complete novice programmers has been left up to the broader community,
>      then referenced from the main site or the wiki.
>
>      (Thinking out loud here...)
>
>      - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>        writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>        language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.
>
>      - Allowing the community to annotate the online documentation (though
>        still keeping the actual documentation content "in-house" - sort of
>        midway between a closed site and fully editable wiki) might be an
>        excellent way to improve it.  Users could point out errors, add
>        examples, maybe even easily suggest ways to restructure signficant
>        parts for easier use.
>
>      - Would Google App Engine be a suitable environment for an interactive
>        Python exploratorium?
>
>    * (Presentation) As I indicated above I prefer a "lighter" look and
>      feel.  Sidebars can be handy, but we seem to have taken them to an
>      extreme.  With both constant-width left and right sidebars on the
>      front page you lose anywhere from one third to one half of the space
>      available to display actual content.  That said, I am all for
>      highlighting activities such as GSoC (maybe displayed as a thin banner
>      across the top of the page?).  I think you could move the "... uses
>      Python" box to the bottom of the left-hand sidebar, eliminate the
>      "What they are saying..." altogether, and merge the "Using Python
>      For..." box into the left-hand sidebar as a dynamic hierarchical menu.
>
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
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From martin at martinthomas.net  Wed Apr 21 18:03:36 2010
From: martin at martinthomas.net (Martin Thomas)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:03:36 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <l2s4324dc741004210903ocaefcd69x5ee5fc66807710f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:11 AM, <skip at pobox.com> wrote:

>
> My feedback on Rich's outline document so far:
>
>   ...
>      The job board seems to be a well-used part of the site, at least based
>      on the number of posting requests I've seen and notes about taking
>      down postings because positions have been filled.  There is a fair
>      amount of give-and-take at times between Martin and the people posting
>      job announcements to help the submitters get their posts into
>      reasonable form and with appropriate content.  (At least once a month
>      I would suspect that postings with no apparent Python relevance are
>      sent to the jobs address.)  The job board is a good marketing tool for
>      Python the language.  I think it would be a shame if the high quality
>      of the content was diluted by lack of oversight.
>

The time consuming part of the Job Board is the formatting of posts
(wrestling them into RST) more so than the maintenance of the page. The
back and forth where we (mostly me) try to get the minimum details
required (and sometimes shorten the posting) is a workflow that seems
naturally to align with email. I am aware that to some, the volume of mail
for the postings (particularly replies and acknowledgements) may seem
like spam but it helps track progress on postings (allowing volunteers to
stay in sync without any other tools). It also demonstrates that the
marketplace is active which I think is a positive point when promoting
Python.

There is also work done by the mail server team who vet postings before
they get onto the list.

All that said, I am open to suggestions for change or improvement. Let
me know how I can help.

Cheers // Martin

...
>
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>
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From skip at pobox.com  Wed Apr 21 18:12:54 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:12:54 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <l2s4324dc741004210903ocaefcd69x5ee5fc66807710f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<l2s4324dc741004210903ocaefcd69x5ee5fc66807710f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19407.9222.520253.301516@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Martin> There is also work done by the mail server team who vet postings
    Martin> before they get onto the list.

Note that I (at least) only vet job postings to the extent that it appears
they are actually job postings and not spam.  If someone posts a job opening
for an system administrator which doesn't mention Python at all I wouldn't
know it.  Mailman's window onto held mail is generally pretty narrow.  It
displays subject, sender, most of the headers and often some, but not all,
of the message body.  Attachments aren't displayed at all.

Skip

From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 18:14:35 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:14:35 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 17:11, skip at pobox.com wrote:
> My feedback on Rich's outline document so far:
>
>      * (Agility) I don't think the site content is difficult to update.  It
>        is in a fairly simple to read/write text format.  Except when brain
>        cramps get in my way, updating the site generally involves little more
>        than editing the text and checking in the changed file(s).  Switching
>        to some kind of through-the-web editing system would be massive
>        overkill in my opinion.
>    

Right, so it involves at least use of subversion and understanding of 
reStructured Text format - plus checkin rights or the ability to create 
a patch. If you *already* know all this stuff then it is easy. If you 
don't then it isn't... I think that this particular question is 
something we are never likely to get consensus on amongst all those 
involved and the PSF board should make a decision based on their goals 
for the site.

>        As for the appearance, I lean more toward the simple Google end of the
>        spectrum when it comes to website appearance, and I detest websites
>        which think it's ok to spew out JavaScript or Flash animations which
>        peg my computer's CPU.  I do, however, think that whatever appearance
>        you settle on should be used in the wiki as well.  They are two sides
>        of the same coin in my mind.
>    

Simple, clean and attractive would be my ideals for the site. I am 
against Flash but I'm not against enhancing a site with Javascript. It 
shouldn't be essential to access the basic functionality, but if we do 
have any more advanced interactive features then I'm not against them 
being unavailable without Javascript (assuming we can remain compliant 
with basic accessibility principles - not something I know anything about).

On that note - should accessibility requirements be part of the plan? 
Probably.

> [snip..]
>
>      * (Localization) I would like to see some way to highlight local user
>        group meetings.  I realize that's somewhat at odds with my comments
>        above about news items.  It might be worthwhile to also offer storage/
>        display/indexing space for presentations from local user group talks.
>
>    
It would be very good if we could include ways for user groups to have a 
"home" on Python.org - publishing meeting details and news.

The other side of the coin to localization is internationalization - it 
would be great to host / support other translations and even have a way 
for users to create / suggest new translations for parts of the 
documentation. Quite a big project to do it completely.

>      * (Extensibility) I'm not sure what you're after here.  I think you need
>        to expand, maybe give an example.
>
>      * (Accessibility) Traditionally, aside from the main Python tutorial
>        (which assumes some programming background) tutorial information for
>        complete novice programmers has been left up to the broader community,
>        then referenced from the main site or the wiki.
>
>        (Thinking out loud here...)
>
>        - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>          writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>          language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.
>
>    
Whilst *evaluating* tutorials can be done (and perhaps is best done) by 
those with little experience I don't think that absolute Python newbies 
can *create* a very good tutorial. Many small details of Python idioms 
and best practises only come through experience. On the other hand I 
would be *very* much in favour of the PSF sponsoring a new Python 
tutorial. I don't think the existing one is *particularly* good - it is 
showing its age.


>        - Allowing the community to annotate the online documentation (though
>          still keeping the actual documentation content "in-house" - sort of
>          midway between a closed site and fully editable wiki) might be an
>          excellent way to improve it.  Users could point out errors, add
>          examples, maybe even easily suggest ways to restructure signficant
>          parts for easier use.
>    
That would be very useful. The Django book had an online annotation 
system they used for collecting corrections / suggestions. I think there 
was (is?) a GSOC project to create something like this for Sphinx.


>        - Would Google App Engine be a suitable environment for an interactive
>          Python exploratorium?
>    

I'd rather not have our core services dependent on external providers - 
but am not *strongly* against it for some of the details.

All the best,

Michael

>      * (Presentation) As I indicated above I prefer a "lighter" look and
>        feel.  Sidebars can be handy, but we seem to have taken them to an
>        extreme.  With both constant-width left and right sidebars on the
>        front page you lose anywhere from one third to one half of the space
>        available to display actual content.  That said, I am all for
>        highlighting activities such as GSoC (maybe displayed as a thin banner
>        across the top of the page?).  I think you could move the "... uses
>        Python" box to the bottom of the left-hand sidebar, eliminate the
>        "What they are saying..." altogether, and merge the "Using Python
>        For..." box into the left-hand sidebar as a dynamic hierarchical menu.
>
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Apr 21 18:20:48 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:20:48 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>
	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100421162048.GB15551@panix.com>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010, Paul Boddie wrote:
>
> Take a look at the following document:
> 
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/MarketingPython
> 
> It's a bit verbose, but it covers quite a few reflections I had after
> the last python.org redesign.

Looks good, but parts of it are out-of-date (just something to keep in
mind while reading).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Apr 21 18:24:47 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:24:47 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>
	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>
	<4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <20100421162447.GC15551@panix.com>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010, Steve Holden wrote:
>
> Personally I think that you make some good points. We should be looking
> more critically at the whole point of the web site, but it's obvious
> that there's some disagreement in the Python community about this point
> of view, Just look at the comments on this blog entry:
> 
>   http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2009/02/sell-sizzle-not-sausage.html
> 
> I think a lot of geeks just don't like "marketing", not matter what the
> purpose.

There's also the issue that even amongst those of us who believe that
marketing is useful (you can hardly claim that I argue against marketing
when I put in the effort to get a Python booth last OSCON), there is much
disagreement about *who* we market to and *how* we do the marketing.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From skip at pobox.com  Wed Apr 21 18:25:15 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:25:15 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
Message-ID: <19407.9963.788042.950062@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    >> - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
    >> writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
    >> language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.

    Michael> Whilst *evaluating* tutorials can be done (and perhaps is best
    Michael> done) by those with little experience I don't think that
    Michael> absolute Python newbies can *create* a very good tutorial.

My implicit point was that I think it's difficult for experienced
programmers to write documentation which is suitable for non-programmers.  I
don't know what the resolution will be, but there is certainly tension
between the two extremes.

    >> - Would Google App Engine be a suitable environment for an interactive
    >> Python exploratorium?
    >> 

    Michael> I'd rather not have our core services dependent on external
    Michael> providers - but am not *strongly* against it for some of the
    Michael> details.

I only mentioned GAE because presumably they've solved the problem of
someone entering something simple like

    print 1000 ** 1000 ** 1000

which will likely take awhile to run.  GAE probably also has more hardware
available so that the above sort of construct (if it hasn't been addressed)
is unlikely to be an effective denial-of-service attack.  At most the PSF
will probably devote a few boxes to such an application.  Execute that a few
times and things can go to pot pretty quickly.  Not to mention
security/sandbox issues.

S

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Apr 21 18:30:33 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:30:33 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Hiring a tech writer
In-Reply-To: <19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>
>       - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>         writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>         language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.

If you're serious about this, I can recommend my co-author of Python for
Dummies.  ;-)  (That's a smiley, yes, but it's a serious recommendation;
not sure if Stef would be interested, though -- once may have been
enough.  Stef used to work at Apple, so she's familiar with the "this is
a mouse" level of writing.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From rich at richleland.com  Wed Apr 21 18:31:00 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:31:00 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
Message-ID: <i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>

>
>     * (Agility) I don't think the site content is difficult to update.  It
>>       is in a fairly simple to read/write text format.  Except when brain
>>       cramps get in my way, updating the site generally involves little
>> more
>>       than editing the text and checking in the changed file(s).
>>  Switching
>>       to some kind of through-the-web editing system would be massive
>>       overkill in my opinion.
>>
>>
>
> Right, so it involves at least use of subversion and understanding of
> reStructured Text format - plus checkin rights or the ability to create a
> patch. If you *already* know all this stuff then it is easy. If you don't
> then it isn't... I think that this particular question is something we are
> never likely to get consensus on amongst all those involved and the PSF
> board should make a decision based on their goals for the site.


I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with the process
it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be. For instance, if there was a
decision to add 5 new sections with 30 pages of content, which method would
be faster for updating - a through-the-web-based approach or the existing
create files, check in, build? I'm not sure one is faster than the other and
I'm sure there would be varying opinions on that. Maybe the way to approach
this question is thinking about who could be editing the content. Should it
always be technical individuals or should someone with writing skills be
able to update the site as well?


>     * (Localization) I would like to see some way to highlight local user
>
>       group meetings.  I realize that's somewhat at odds with my comments
>>       above about news items.  It might be worthwhile to also offer
>> storage/
>>       display/indexing space for presentations from local user group
>> talks.
>>
>>
>>
> It would be very good if we could include ways for user groups to have a
> "home" on Python.org - publishing meeting details and news.
>
> The other side of the coin to localization is internationalization - it
> would be great to host / support other translations and even have a way for
> users to create / suggest new translations for parts of the documentation.
> Quite a big project to do it completely.
>
>
I had a brief chat with Steve about this - we could look into using
something like Transifex to get the community to contribute the i18n
content. http://www.transifex.net/


>
>      * (Extensibility) I'm not sure what you're after here.  I think you
>> need
>>       to expand, maybe give an example.
>>
>
Steve mentioned the possibility of adding some APIs for accessing
python.orgcontent - perhaps allowing users to create their own apps -
PyPI browsing on
iPhone, user group meeting widgets, calendars, release notes, etc. This one
would have to be more thought through for sure.

- Rich
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From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 18:31:36 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:31:36 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.9963.788042.950062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<19407.9963.788042.950062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BCF2868.8060906@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 18:25, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>      >>  - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>      >>  writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>      >>  language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.
>
>      Michael>  Whilst *evaluating* tutorials can be done (and perhaps is best
>      Michael>  done) by those with little experience I don't think that
>      Michael>  absolute Python newbies can *create* a very good tutorial.
>
> My implicit point was that I think it's difficult for experienced
> programmers to write documentation which is suitable for non-programmers.  I
> don't know what the resolution will be, but there is certainly tension
> between the two extremes.
>    

Hehe. As a (relatively) experience Python developer and a writer I don't 
think it is that hard if you have the right mindset and skills. I don't 
think it is *possible* for a real newbie to write useful documentation 
though. Having a technical-but-python-novice as a reviewer would be very 
helpful though.

>      >>  - Would Google App Engine be a suitable environment for an interactive
>      >>  Python exploratorium?
>      >>
>
>      Michael>  I'd rather not have our core services dependent on external
>      Michael>  providers - but am not *strongly* against it for some of the
>      Michael>  details.
>
> I only mentioned GAE because presumably they've solved the problem of
> someone entering something simple like
>
>      print 1000 ** 1000 ** 1000
>    

Ah - you're talking about an "interactive Python exploratorium", I 
missed that. Yes, implementing it on top of google app engine would be 
sensible.

If you're not ideologically opposed to Silverlight then I have already 
implemented something like this called "Try Python" (unfortunately not 
yet compatible with Silverlight 4 which has just been released - I need 
a free weekend): http://www.trypython.org/

The advantage of Silverlight is that the code runs on the client not the 
server. The disadvantage is that it is only installed on 50% of browsers 
and has poor Linux support (works great on the Mac though).

All the best,

Michael



> which will likely take awhile to run.  GAE probably also has more hardware
> available so that the above sort of construct (if it hasn't been addressed)
> is unlikely to be an effective denial-of-service attack.  At most the PSF
> will probably devote a few boxes to such an application.  Execute that a few
> times and things can go to pot pretty quickly.  Not to mention
> security/sandbox issues.
>
> S
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 18:34:28 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:34:28 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF2914.3030209@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 18:31, Richard Leland wrote:
> [snip...]
>
>
>             * (Extensibility) I'm not sure what you're after here.  I
>         think you need
>               to expand, maybe give an example.
>
>
> Steve mentioned the possibility of adding some APIs for accessing 
> python.org <http://python.org> content - perhaps allowing users to 
> create their own apps - PyPI browsing on iPhone, user group meeting 
> widgets, calendars, release notes, etc. This one would have to be more 
> thought through for sure.
>

Having different stylesheets for different devices would be nice - 
Wordpress has a nice plugin that does this and works well. A minimum 
requirement would be that the design should work well on a range of 
browsers *and* devices, however that is done.

I'm not *convinced* about the idea of giving python.org an API without 
some clear usecases - an API to do what? I'm not sure that an API for 
adding content is *particularly* useful, but if some real usecases can 
be shown then maybe. :-) If we have support for local user groups and 
conferences then things like calendars etc sounds good however.

All the best,

Michael


> - Rich


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/

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From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 18:35:06 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:35:06 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Hiring a tech writer
In-Reply-To: <20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF293A.5000205@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 18:30, Aahz wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>    
>>        - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>>          writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>>          language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.
>>      
> If you're serious about this, I can recommend my co-author of Python for
> Dummies.  ;-)  (That's a smiley, yes, but it's a serious recommendation;
> not sure if Stef would be interested, though -- once may have been
> enough.  Stef used to work at Apple, so she's familiar with the "this is
> a mouse" level of writing.)
>    
Writing a good Python tutorial is something I've wanted to do for a long 
time too... :-)

All the best,

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 18:38:59 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:38:59 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCEFE64.5000605@wingware.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>	<4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>	<4BCE9781.6030605@v.loewis.de>
	<4BCEFE64.5000605@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF2A23.4080803@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 15:32, Stephan Deibel wrote:
> Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>>> I think a lot of geeks just don't like "marketing", not matter what the
>>> purpose.
>>
>> I don't think "not like" describes it correctly. Me, personally, I don't
>> care about that aspect of the site. I want python.org to be the place
>> were people download Python releases, report bugs, post information they
>> find useful, collaborate, and learn about events that take place.
>> Whether or not the site also "markets" Python is of little relevance to
>> me. Only if the marketing gets in the way of the other functions I start
>> not liking it.
>
> The most effective marketing is low-key word of mouth and other kinds of
> informal helpful referrals.  The kind of stuff that people wouldn't 
> even really
> think of as marketing.  This will mostly happen entirely outside of the
> website.
>
> The website should be accessible and helpful to people that receive such
> word of mouth and want to learn about and start using Python.  It should
> try doing that for a variety of audiences.

This is the main point. I think the website should be attractive to all 
and useful for a range of different purposes. In previous threads we 
identified various different users with different needs:

* Complete novices wanting information / tutorials
* Developers investigating Python (why should I use it - what is it good 
for?)
* Pointy haired bosses wanting information or reasons to feel safe using 
Python
* The Python community and developers needing documentation / downloads etc
* The core development team

And so on... Even if we don't believe in "marketing" if there are 
potential python developers / contributors who are *put off* (or simply 
don't find what they need) from the website then I'm sure we can all 
agree that this is a bad thing.

All the best,

Michael


>
> I don't think a site that tries to "sell" will work well, not even if you
> target corporate IT types (or whatever you want to call decision 
> makers at
> larger companies).
>
> I'd go so far as to say the current site tries to "sell" too much (in the
> right column on home page and About area).  I helped write and/or collect
> a lot of that stuff.  I'm not sure how useful it really is, or at 
> least quotes and
> success stories are not as useful as making Download and Getting Started
> info more obvious.  The stuff in About is a bit better in that it's 
> more factual
> but the presentation is still trying too hard to "sell" and I think 
> that's a problem.
>
> Here's an amusing failure to "sell":  Look at the "About Ruby's Growth"
> section on http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/about/ -- what it shows in the 
> graph
> since 2006 doesn't look like growth to me!  Of course someone set this 
> up and
> forgot about it and the graph just keeps auto-updating.
>
> - Stephan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From skip at pobox.com  Wed Apr 21 19:18:39 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:18:39 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19407.13167.380324.734773@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    skip> * (Agility) I don't think the site content is difficult to update.

    >> Right, so it involves at least use of subversion and understanding of
    >> reStructured Text format - plus checkin rights or the ability to
    >> create a patch.

All of which I (personally) can do within the confines of an (X)?Emacs
session with no need to recall svn or patch syntax.  OTOH, if your text
editing tool of choice is Notepad I can understand why this would be a
barrier to entry.  Personally, if you gave me a through-the-web way of
editing the site content the first thing I would do would be to figure out
how to get the content into Emacs.

I think you need to survey the potential contributors to see what they use
today for text editing and editing web content before throwing out the
current system.  I suspect most of the people who would contribute to the
site on more than a casual basis will already have some working knowledge of
version control systems and lightweight markup like ReST.

Whatever you come up with also has to fit into the release toolchain, as I
believe a significant amount of site content (and arguably the most
important content on the site) is generated at release time.

    Rich> I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with
    Rich> the process it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be.

Sorry, I don't know what "agile" means in this context.

    Rich> For instance, if there was a decision to add 5 new sections with
    Rich> 30 pages of content, which method would be faster for updating - a
    Rich> through-the-web-based approach or the existing create files, check
    Rich> in, build?

You're asking me to choose between:

  * edit locally using familiar tools, build the site locally using "make",
    review, edit, checkin

  *  one-by-one creation of upwards of 30 pages (where does the nascent
     content go for review before deployment?)

I know what I'd choose.  The bulk of those 30 pages will still be plain text
and to the greatest extent possible you have to allow people to edit that
content using their weapon(s) of choice.  If they perceive the process as
too cumbersome they will not contribute.  I understand that I may be making
your argument for you, however, on the one hand you have a certain amount of
content now, and a certain set of people who do maintain and update that
content.  Is it worth it to make it more difficult for existing contributors
to keep things running so you can attract some other (unspecified) people as
contributors who are or might be put off because the current tools are
perceived as too hard to learn/master?  I think it becomes a bird-in-the-
hand vs two-in-the-bush situation.

I will admit my only recent through-the-web editing experience is the Moin
text editor (which content quickly goes straight into Emacs) and general
<textarea> widgets (which should be taken out and shot as far as I'm
concerned).  I have tried (a long time ago) to use Zope to build a website
but quickly gave up (slow, complex, cumbersome).  Perhaps things have
improved in that area, but if there's no decent way to plop raw content into
a text editor I will likely take a pass.

    Rich> Maybe the way to approach this question is thinking about who
    Rich> could be editing the content. Should it always be technical
    Rich> individuals or should someone with writing skills be able to
    Rich> update the site as well?

Though we might wish it to be otherwise I suspect the bulk of the site
updates will always rest with much the same group of people as we have
today.  They will remain mostly programmers and most of the content updates
will fall into three categories: download/release, news items, and job
postings.  You might well have a full-scale reorganization of the site over
the next several months, but once the dust settles and you enter a new
steady state those three areas will likely still be the parts of the site
which change most frequently.

Perhaps a quick svn log would be useful as a way to understand how the site
changes today?  What parts of the site don't get the love they deserve
because the people who might be tempted to take ownership are put off by the
current workflow/toolchain?

Skip

From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Apr 21 19:58:26 2010
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:58:26 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Hiring a tech writer
In-Reply-To: <20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com>
Message-ID: <m2j549053141004211058kee33a89bw18dd3e0fd346e1ea@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>
>> ? ? ? - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>> ? ? ? ? writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>> ? ? ? ? language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.
>
> If you're serious about this, I can recommend my co-author of Python for
> Dummies. ?;-) ?(That's a smiley, yes, but it's a serious recommendation;
> not sure if Stef would be interested, though -- once may have been
> enough. ?Stef used to work at Apple, so she's familiar with the "this is
> a mouse" level of writing.)
> --

I came up with a progression of about 100 python command line examples
to take someone from 0-60 in about 2 hours.  It assumes they know how
to program in some other language so that they are familiar with
datatypes, loops, branching, functions, etc.   I did a practice run
though of cut/pasting each example into the >>> prompt and giving a
30-60 second description of what it was about.  It took 2.5 hours,
which included some "what should I say about this?"  I think with some
refinement it could be done in 1.5 hours.


I think the format lends itself to a 2nd version that assumes the
person has been working with Python, but never seriously learned it
(like someone who has moved from PHP to Django.)  It would be the
exact same content, only spend much less time verbal description.

Back to the tutorial: I think it would work, and could be very
visually appealing.
What I envision:
a web page of 10 or 20 commands with some web too oh! buttons:

>>>"hello world"
>>>print( "hello world" )

[show result][quick description][advanced] >>>"hello world"
[show result][quick description][advanced] >>>print("hello world")
... >>>123
... >>>print( 123 )
... >>>['hello',123,'world','see?']

clicking the buttons would unfold to:
>>>"hello world"
"hello world"
--
This shows the REP loop.  If the command returns something other than
None, a printable representation is displayed.  This makes the >>>
prompt a great place to interactively experiment. This is not how a
typical program will display output.
---
The "printable representation" is determined by calling the objects
.__repr__() method.  Exactly what is returned is up to the discretion
of the programmer who coded the class the object inherits from.  You
will find that most things in the Python Standard Library return a
reasonable value.
(complete details:
http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#object.__repr__ )

>>>print("Hello world!")
Hello world!
--
This is how programs can display output to the console. (something
about gui, web and other outputs so the person does not think STDOUT
is all there is.)
--
The print command calls the objects .__str__() method and sends the
result to stdout.  __str__() defaults to __repr__() or  returns
something human readable.
----------

With lots of links so that the student never needs to google.

I also think it might work to have the commands stuffed into something
like http://codepad.org "online compiler/interpreter"  So that the
student can tweak the example and see what happens.   yes, they could
download/install python, but that is a barrier I want to avoid.

There are a few other Chicago folk that I bet would be interested in
this.  some are professors.

I am sensing a wiki like approach.  more later, I need to get to work.

-- 
Carl K

From steve at holdenweb.com  Wed Apr 21 20:01:54 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:01:54 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100421162447.GC15551@panix.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>	<4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
	<20100421162447.GC15551@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF3D92.2040402@holdenweb.com>

Aahz wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010, Steve Holden wrote:
>> Personally I think that you make some good points. We should be looking
>> more critically at the whole point of the web site, but it's obvious
>> that there's some disagreement in the Python community about this point
>> of view, Just look at the comments on this blog entry:
>>
>>   http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2009/02/sell-sizzle-not-sausage.html
>>
>> I think a lot of geeks just don't like "marketing", not matter what the
>> purpose.
> 
> There's also the issue that even amongst those of us who believe that
> marketing is useful (you can hardly claim that I argue against marketing
> when I put in the effort to get a Python booth last OSCON), there is much
> disagreement about *who* we market to and *how* we do the marketing.

Sure. I don't ever remember suggesting you were a marketing luddite.

But the solution to that problem isn't "don't do marketing", it's
"identify the goals and then use metrics to adapt the methods until the
goals are being met".

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From steve at holdenweb.com  Wed Apr 21 20:23:03 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:23:03 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF2914.3030209@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCF2914.3030209@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BCF4287.9050903@holdenweb.com>

Michael Foord wrote:
> On 21/04/2010 18:31, Richard Leland wrote:
>> [snip...]
>>
>>
>>             * (Extensibility) I'm not sure what you're after here.  I
>>         think you need
>>               to expand, maybe give an example.
>>
>>
>> Steve mentioned the possibility of adding some APIs for accessing
>> python.org <http://python.org> content - perhaps allowing users to
>> create their own apps - PyPI browsing on iPhone, user group meeting
>> widgets, calendars, release notes, etc. This one would have to be more
>> thought through for sure.
>>
> 
> Having different stylesheets for different devices would be nice -
> Wordpress has a nice plugin that does this and works well. A minimum
> requirement would be that the design should work well on a range of
> browsers *and* devices, however that is done.
> 
> I'm not *convinced* about the idea of giving python.org an API without
> some clear usecases - an API to do what? I'm not sure that an API for
> adding content is *particularly* useful, but if some real usecases can
> be shown then maybe. :-) If we have support for local user groups and
> conferences then things like calendars etc sounds good however.

I wasn't so much suggesting that "an API be designed", but that for
certain point applications (e.g. "Add details of your next user group
meeting to all necessary content areas") we could provide point APIs.

One of the principles of information design is that the same information
should be accessible in multiple ways. At the moment we can't even add
site content and have the update automatically noted in the news section
(or some other automatically-produced section of the site). All or most
correlations have to be created manually, inevitably leading to error
when it is done, and usually ensuring that it simply isn't done.

The current content maintenance mechanism constrains our site structure
horribly at times. One task that I find gallingly, ridiculously
complicated is simply finding out how to contact the PSF. Start at

  http://python.org/psf/

Clicking on "PSF Details & Contacting the PSF" takes you to

  http://python.org/psf/#psf-details-contacting-the-psf

where you then click on "Please see About the Python Software
Foundation." to get to

  http://python.org/psf/about/

where you then have to identify and click on "How do I reach the PSF?"
to get to

  http://python.org/psf/about/#how-do-i-reach-the-psf

where you finally see the information you want. While as developers we
are all too happy to talk about software "use cases", too often there
seems to be an assumption that all web site users are the same. They
aren't. As a web professional this screams "incompetence" to me, and the
site appears to be the way it is because there is no simple way to store
that information once and re-use it wherever it is needed.

This is insane, and similar idiocies are doubtless repeated elsewhere.
Anyone who says we can't do better than that has no future in web
development ;-). To change things demands that we look critically at the
site from the point of view of our various categories of user.

I have done some research into the current information architecture, and
have passed the results along to Rich, who is better placed than me to
make use of it. There's a lot to do.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From steve at holdenweb.com  Wed Apr 21 20:24:31 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:24:31 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.13167.380324.734773@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.13167.380324.734773@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BCF42DF.40607@holdenweb.com>

skip at pobox.com wrote:
>     skip> * (Agility) I don't think the site content is difficult to update.
> 
>     >> Right, so it involves at least use of subversion and understanding of
>     >> reStructured Text format - plus checkin rights or the ability to
>     >> create a patch.
> 
> All of which I (personally) can do within the confines of an (X)?Emacs
> session with no need to recall svn or patch syntax.  OTOH, if your text
> editing tool of choice is Notepad I can understand why this would be a
> barrier to entry.  Personally, if you gave me a through-the-web way of
> editing the site content the first thing I would do would be to figure out
> how to get the content into Emacs.
> 
> I think you need to survey the potential contributors to see what they use
> today for text editing and editing web content before throwing out the
> current system.  I suspect most of the people who would contribute to the
> site on more than a casual basis will already have some working knowledge of
> version control systems and lightweight markup like ReST.
> 
> Whatever you come up with also has to fit into the release toolchain, as I
> believe a significant amount of site content (and arguably the most
> important content on the site) is generated at release time.
> 
>     Rich> I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with
>     Rich> the process it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be.
> 
> Sorry, I don't know what "agile" means in this context.
> 
>     Rich> For instance, if there was a decision to add 5 new sections with
>     Rich> 30 pages of content, which method would be faster for updating - a
>     Rich> through-the-web-based approach or the existing create files, check
>     Rich> in, build?
> 
> You're asking me to choose between:
> 
>   * edit locally using familiar tools, build the site locally using "make",
>     review, edit, checkin
> 
>   *  one-by-one creation of upwards of 30 pages (where does the nascent
>      content go for review before deployment?)
> 
> I know what I'd choose.  The bulk of those 30 pages will still be plain text
> and to the greatest extent possible you have to allow people to edit that
> content using their weapon(s) of choice.  If they perceive the process as
> too cumbersome they will not contribute.  I understand that I may be making
> your argument for you, however, on the one hand you have a certain amount of
> content now, and a certain set of people who do maintain and update that
> content.  Is it worth it to make it more difficult for existing contributors
> to keep things running so you can attract some other (unspecified) people as
> contributors who are or might be put off because the current tools are
> perceived as too hard to learn/master?  I think it becomes a bird-in-the-
> hand vs two-in-the-bush situation.
> 
> I will admit my only recent through-the-web editing experience is the Moin
> text editor (which content quickly goes straight into Emacs) and general
> <textarea> widgets (which should be taken out and shot as far as I'm
> concerned).  I have tried (a long time ago) to use Zope to build a website
> but quickly gave up (slow, complex, cumbersome).  Perhaps things have
> improved in that area, but if there's no decent way to plop raw content into
> a text editor I will likely take a pass.
> 
>     Rich> Maybe the way to approach this question is thinking about who
>     Rich> could be editing the content. Should it always be technical
>     Rich> individuals or should someone with writing skills be able to
>     Rich> update the site as well?
> 
> Though we might wish it to be otherwise I suspect the bulk of the site
> updates will always rest with much the same group of people as we have
> today.  They will remain mostly programmers and most of the content updates
> will fall into three categories: download/release, news items, and job
> postings.  You might well have a full-scale reorganization of the site over
> the next several months, but once the dust settles and you enter a new
> steady state those three areas will likely still be the parts of the site
> which change most frequently.
> 
> Perhaps a quick svn log would be useful as a way to understand how the site
> changes today?  What parts of the site don't get the love they deserve
> because the people who might be tempted to take ownership are put off by the
> current workflow/toolchain?
> 
All good elitist stuff, Skip ;-).

The problems are as much structural as technical, as I tried to
demonstrate in my last message.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From steve at holdenweb.com  Wed Apr 21 20:26:45 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:26:45 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Hiring a tech writer
In-Reply-To: <m2j549053141004211058kee33a89bw18dd3e0fd346e1ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com>
	<m2j549053141004211058kee33a89bw18dd3e0fd346e1ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF4365.5000803@holdenweb.com>

Carl Karsten wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>>       - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>>>         writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>>>         language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.
>> If you're serious about this, I can recommend my co-author of Python for
>> Dummies.  ;-)  (That's a smiley, yes, but it's a serious recommendation;
>> not sure if Stef would be interested, though -- once may have been
>> enough.  Stef used to work at Apple, so she's familiar with the "this is
>> a mouse" level of writing.)
>> --
> 
> I came up with a progression of about 100 python command line examples
> to take someone from 0-60 in about 2 hours.  It assumes they know how
> to program in some other language so that they are familiar with
> datatypes, loops, branching, functions, etc.   I did a practice run
> though of cut/pasting each example into the >>> prompt and giving a
> 30-60 second description of what it was about.  It took 2.5 hours,
> which included some "what should I say about this?"  I think with some
> refinement it could be done in 1.5 hours.
> 
> 
> I think the format lends itself to a 2nd version that assumes the
> person has been working with Python, but never seriously learned it
> (like someone who has moved from PHP to Django.)  It would be the
> exact same content, only spend much less time verbal description.
> 
> Back to the tutorial: I think it would work, and could be very
> visually appealing.
> What I envision:
> a web page of 10 or 20 commands with some web too oh! buttons:
> 
>>>> "hello world"
>>>> print( "hello world" )
> 
> [show result][quick description][advanced] >>>"hello world"
> [show result][quick description][advanced] >>>print("hello world")
> ... >>>123
> ... >>>print( 123 )
> ... >>>['hello',123,'world','see?']
> 
> clicking the buttons would unfold to:
>>>> "hello world"
> "hello world"
> --
> This shows the REP loop.  If the command returns something other than
> None, a printable representation is displayed.  This makes the >>>
> prompt a great place to interactively experiment. This is not how a
> typical program will display output.
> ---
> The "printable representation" is determined by calling the objects
> .__repr__() method.  Exactly what is returned is up to the discretion
> of the programmer who coded the class the object inherits from.  You
> will find that most things in the Python Standard Library return a
> reasonable value.
> (complete details:
> http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#object.__repr__ )
> 
>>>> print("Hello world!")
> Hello world!
> --
> This is how programs can display output to the console. (something
> about gui, web and other outputs so the person does not think STDOUT
> is all there is.)
> --
> The print command calls the objects .__str__() method and sends the
> result to stdout.  __str__() defaults to __repr__() or  returns
> something human readable.
> ----------
> 
> With lots of links so that the student never needs to google.
> 
> I also think it might work to have the commands stuffed into something
> like http://codepad.org "online compiler/interpreter"  So that the
> student can tweak the example and see what happens.   yes, they could
> download/install python, but that is a barrier I want to avoid.
> 
> There are a few other Chicago folk that I bet would be interested in
> this.  some are professors.
> 
> I am sensing a wiki like approach.  more later, I need to get to work.
> 
This is discussing what type of bricks to use when we don't even know
what type of building is yet required.

Happens all the time with techies, but that doesn't make it the right
way to proceed.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Apr 21 20:49:01 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:49:01 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCEFE64.5000605@wingware.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCC688D.70507@wingware.com>	<h2l8e236d371004191517y8311b54dzfdcc454038e0b0fd@mail.gmail.com>	<201004200050.56428.paul@boddie.org.uk>	<20100420205609.GD1789@state-of-mind.de>	<4BCE5E57.7060106@holdenweb.com>
	<4BCE9781.6030605@v.loewis.de> <4BCEFE64.5000605@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF489D.3070505@v.loewis.de>

> Here's an amusing failure to "sell":  Look at the "About Ruby's Growth"
> section on http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/about/ -- what it shows in the graph
> since 2006 doesn't look like growth to me!  Of course someone set this
> up and forgot about it and the graph just keeps auto-updating.

Interestingly, they also say that they are at #9 of the TIOBE index,
when they apparently since moved down to #12.

Regards,
Martin

From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 20:50:12 2010
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:50:12 -0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF2868.8060906@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<19407.9963.788042.950062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF2868.8060906@python.org>
Message-ID: <o2s7528bcdd1004211150wce2c1d38k725cf0fd321b2b5b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:

> On 21/04/2010 18:25, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>


>
>      >>  - Would Google App Engine be a suitable environment for an
>> interactive
>>     >>  Python exploratorium?
>>     >>
>>
>>     Michael>  I'd rather not have our core services dependent on external
>>     Michael>  providers - but am not *strongly* against it for some of the
>>     Michael>  details.
>>
>> I only mentioned GAE because presumably they've solved the problem of
>> someone entering something simple like
>>
>>     print 1000 ** 1000 ** 1000
>>
>>
>
> Ah - you're talking about an "interactive Python exploratorium", I missed
> that. Yes, implementing it on top of google app engine would be sensible.
>
> If you're not ideologically opposed to Silverlight then I have already
> implemented something like this called "Try Python" (unfortunately not yet
> compatible with Silverlight 4 which has just been released - I need a free
> weekend): http://www.trypython.org/
>
> The advantage of Silverlight is that the code runs on the client not the
> server. The disadvantage is that it is only installed on 50% of browsers and
> has poor Linux support (works great on the Mac though).
>
> [snip]

> which will likely take awhile to run.  GAE probably also has more hardware
> available so that the above sort of construct (if it hasn't been addressed)
> is unlikely to be an effective denial-of-service attack.  At most the PSF
> will probably devote a few boxes to such an application.  Execute that a
> few
> times and things can go to pot pretty quickly.  Not to mention
> security/sandbox issues.
>
>
If I may jump in, this is an issue that I've been thinking about for 2 or 3
years at least.

I can think of a few solutions - none of which are entirely satisfactory.

1. Use Crunchy (http://code.google.com/p/crunchy) to transform an otherwise
static tutorial (like the existing Python tutorial) into an interactive
Python session.  This works with the existing tutorial - except for one
small "obscure" unicode example where the output from Crunchy does not match
the output from the existing tutorial due to a Crunchy "feature".
(essentially, Crunchy encodes an otherwise "raw" unicode string).   This
works for both Python 2.x and 3.x.
The HUGE disadvantage of this approach is that it requires the user to first
download Python and Crunchy.

2. Port Crunchy to the GAE.  I tried this and ran into some CPU limits when
using it; admittedly, I did not pursue this option very far.  The CPU limits
were mostly due to the time that Crunchy would spend to transform/format a
static (html or rst) page into an interactive one.

3. Port Crunchy to a server owned by the PSF and running some version of GAE
to have slightly more generous CPU limits so that the proper processing
could be performed by Crunchy.  This might be feasible...  Users would just
log in (or use it anonymously) to try the tutorial.

4. Use Silverlight/Moonlight as mentioned by Michael Foord ... with the
caveats he mentioned.

5. Have a more basic tutorial that could be handled entirely by Skulpt (
http://www.skulpt.org/), a javascript based Python interpreter.

6. Use PyPy to create a sandboxed version of Crunchy that could run on a PSF
server.  I have never tried PyPy and do not know enough to comment further.

Still looking for a good working solution....

Andr?  (Roberge)

<http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
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From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 20:50:12 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:50:12 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF4287.9050903@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCF2914.3030209@python.org>
	<4BCF4287.9050903@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF48E4.2000304@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 20:23, Steve Holden wrote:
> Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> On 21/04/2010 18:31, Richard Leland wrote:
>>      
>>> [snip...]
>>>
>>>
>>>              * (Extensibility) I'm not sure what you're after here.  I
>>>          think you need
>>>                to expand, maybe give an example.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve mentioned the possibility of adding some APIs for accessing
>>> python.org<http://python.org>  content - perhaps allowing users to
>>> create their own apps - PyPI browsing on iPhone, user group meeting
>>> widgets, calendars, release notes, etc. This one would have to be more
>>> thought through for sure.
>>>
>>>        
>> Having different stylesheets for different devices would be nice -
>> Wordpress has a nice plugin that does this and works well. A minimum
>> requirement would be that the design should work well on a range of
>> browsers *and* devices, however that is done.
>>
>> I'm not *convinced* about the idea of giving python.org an API without
>> some clear usecases - an API to do what? I'm not sure that an API for
>> adding content is *particularly* useful, but if some real usecases can
>> be shown then maybe. :-) If we have support for local user groups and
>> conferences then things like calendars etc sounds good however.
>>      
> I wasn't so much suggesting that "an API be designed", but that for
> certain point applications (e.g. "Add details of your next user group
> meeting to all necessary content areas") we could provide point APIs.
>
>    

That sounds great. And your following comments about the lack of any 
coherent information design in the python.org website I also agree with. 
Pulling all that together into shape is a huge task and you have my 
thanks for undertaking it.

There are various suggestions that have been made that are great but 
could be divided into sub-tasks and either run in parallel or left for 
later. Including (but not limited to):

* Supporting user annotations of the Python documentation
* Supporting translations of the Python documentation
* Providing a home and services for Python user groups (workshops / 
conferences etc)
* Updating / rewriting the tutorial
* Through the web maintenance of the jobs board (may be urgent but is a 
separate problem all the same)
* IT infrastructure around PyPI and security comncerns

However there are some issues that need to be part of any core changes:

* Clear navigation paths for the major groups of users
* Support for mobile devices
* Accessibility
* Ability to seamlessly style the wiki with any new look (or replacing 
the wiki altogether and migrating content)
* Clear (and easy) system for maintaining / updating the website and 
creating new content

That is what I have pulled out from recent discussions anyway.

All the best,

Michael Foord

> One of the principles of information design is that the same information
> should be accessible in multiple ways. At the moment we can't even add
> site content and have the update automatically noted in the news section
> (or some other automatically-produced section of the site). All or most
> correlations have to be created manually, inevitably leading to error
> when it is done, and usually ensuring that it simply isn't done.
>
> The current content maintenance mechanism constrains our site structure
> horribly at times. One task that I find gallingly, ridiculously
> complicated is simply finding out how to contact the PSF. Start at
>
>    http://python.org/psf/
>
> Clicking on "PSF Details&  Contacting the PSF" takes you to
>
>    http://python.org/psf/#psf-details-contacting-the-psf
>
> where you then click on "Please see About the Python Software
> Foundation." to get to
>
>    http://python.org/psf/about/
>
> where you then have to identify and click on "How do I reach the PSF?"
> to get to
>
>    http://python.org/psf/about/#how-do-i-reach-the-psf
>
> where you finally see the information you want. While as developers we
> are all too happy to talk about software "use cases", too often there
> seems to be an assumption that all web site users are the same. They
> aren't. As a web professional this screams "incompetence" to me, and the
> site appears to be the way it is because there is no simple way to store
> that information once and re-use it wherever it is needed.
>
> This is insane, and similar idiocies are doubtless repeated elsewhere.
> Anyone who says we can't do better than that has no future in web
> development ;-). To change things demands that we look critically at the
> site from the point of view of our various categories of user.
>
> I have done some research into the current information architecture, and
> have passed the results along to Rich, who is better placed than me to
> make use of it. There's a lot to do.
>
> regards
>   Steve
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 20:52:34 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:52:34 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Hiring a tech writer
In-Reply-To: <m2j549053141004211058kee33a89bw18dd3e0fd346e1ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com>
	<m2j549053141004211058kee33a89bw18dd3e0fd346e1ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF4972.9090804@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 19:58, Carl Karsten wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Aahz<aahz at pythoncraft.com>  wrote:
>    
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>      
>>>        - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>>>          writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>>>          language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.
>>>        
>> If you're serious about this, I can recommend my co-author of Python for
>> Dummies.  ;-)  (That's a smiley, yes, but it's a serious recommendation;
>> not sure if Stef would be interested, though -- once may have been
>> enough.  Stef used to work at Apple, so she's familiar with the "this is
>> a mouse" level of writing.)
>> --
>>      
> I came up with a progression of about 100 python command line examples
> to take someone from 0-60 in about 2 hours.  It assumes they know how
> to program in some other language so that they are familiar with
> datatypes, loops, branching, functions, etc.   I did a practice run
> though of cut/pasting each example into the>>>  prompt and giving a
> 30-60 second description of what it was about.  It took 2.5 hours,
> which included some "what should I say about this?"  I think with some
> refinement it could be done in 1.5 hours.
>
>    

This would be very suitable for Try Python. It presents a pane on the 
left side with the Python tutorial. Interactive interpreters are syntax 
highlighted with a button to execute them in the interactive interpreter 
on the right - which displays the results and can be experimented with 
as a normal interactive interpreter.

If you could send the examples to me. preferably with eStructured Text 
introductions / explanations between the interactive examples, then I 
can add them as a new section on Try Python (with credits of course).

All the best,

Michael

> I think the format lends itself to a 2nd version that assumes the
> person has been working with Python, but never seriously learned it
> (like someone who has moved from PHP to Django.)  It would be the
> exact same content, only spend much less time verbal description.
>
> Back to the tutorial: I think it would work, and could be very
> visually appealing.
> What I envision:
> a web page of 10 or 20 commands with some web too oh! buttons:
>
>    
>>>> "hello world"
>>>> print( "hello world" )
>>>>          
> [show result][quick description][advanced]>>>"hello world"
> [show result][quick description][advanced]>>>print("hello world")
> ...>>>123
> ...>>>print( 123 )
> ...>>>['hello',123,'world','see?']
>
> clicking the buttons would unfold to:
>    
>>>> "hello world"
>>>>          
> "hello world"
> --
> This shows the REP loop.  If the command returns something other than
> None, a printable representation is displayed.  This makes the>>>
> prompt a great place to interactively experiment. This is not how a
> typical program will display output.
> ---
> The "printable representation" is determined by calling the objects
> .__repr__() method.  Exactly what is returned is up to the discretion
> of the programmer who coded the class the object inherits from.  You
> will find that most things in the Python Standard Library return a
> reasonable value.
> (complete details:
> http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#object.__repr__ )
>
>    
>>>> print("Hello world!")
>>>>          
> Hello world!
> --
> This is how programs can display output to the console. (something
> about gui, web and other outputs so the person does not think STDOUT
> is all there is.)
> --
> The print command calls the objects .__str__() method and sends the
> result to stdout.  __str__() defaults to __repr__() or  returns
> something human readable.
> ----------
>
> With lots of links so that the student never needs to google.
>
> I also think it might work to have the commands stuffed into something
> like http://codepad.org "online compiler/interpreter"  So that the
> student can tweak the example and see what happens.   yes, they could
> download/install python, but that is a barrier I want to avoid.
>
> There are a few other Chicago folk that I bet would be interested in
> this.  some are professors.
>
> I am sensing a wiki like approach.  more later, I need to get to work.
>
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Wed Apr 21 20:56:16 2010
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:56:16 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:31:00 -0400, Richard Leland <rich at richleland.com> wrote:
> I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with the process
> it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be. For instance, if there was a
> decision to add 5 new sections with 30 pages of content, which method would
> be faster for updating - a through-the-web-based approach or the existing
> create files, check in, build? I'm not sure one is faster than the other and
> I'm sure there would be varying opinions on that. Maybe the way to approach
> this question is thinking about who could be editing the content. Should it
> always be technical individuals or should someone with writing skills be
> able to update the site as well?

I'm not a current contributor to the python.org content, but I agree
with everything Skip said about this.  For people who are (python)
programmers, through-the-web editing is not agile.  ReST pretty much
*is* text.  The tools are not hard to learn...and perhaps demystifying
them for those who are scared of them would bring more developers into
the software community, which would be a great thing.  "Writers" can be
programmers too, some of them just don't know it :)

--
R. David Murray                                      www.bitdance.com

From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Wed Apr 21 21:07:29 2010
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:07:29 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20100421190729.DE2E91FC403@kimball.webabinitio.net>

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:11:10 -0500, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>     * (Presentation) As I indicated above I prefer a "lighter" look and
>       feel.  Sidebars can be handy, but we seem to have taken them to an
>       extreme.  With both constant-width left and right sidebars on the
>       front page you lose anywhere from one third to one half of the space
>       available to display actual content.  That said, I am all for
>       highlighting activities such as GSoC (maybe displayed as a thin banner
>       across the top of the page?).  I think you could move the "... uses
>       Python" box to the bottom of the left-hand sidebar, eliminate the
>       "What they are saying..." altogether, and merge the "Using Python
>       For..." box into the left-hand sidebar as a dynamic hierarchical menu.

I'm not sure how useful this observation is, but to me the face of
Python is docs.python.org, and I like it.  It feels restful and useful.
The main python.org site feels cramped, a bit busy, and confusing,
and I pretty much never go there.

But I'm not a newcomer to Python, I'm a user/developer.

--
R. David Murray                                      www.bitdance.com

PS: I like docs.python.org so much that I adopted Sphinx and the
docs.python.org color scheme for my own website.  My main page
isn't as useful as docs.python.org, though...I need to fix that.

From rich at richleland.com  Wed Apr 21 21:10:54 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:10:54 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <505F7BFC-9E00-40D4-9C17-AAB55C28E00B@richleland.com>

Point taken. As Steve said I don't want to get too caught up in  
implementation right out of the gates. But it's indeed good to know  
and think about the various perspectives.

- rich

--
Richard Leland
410-227-3671
rich at richleland.com

On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:56 PM, "R. David Murray" <rdmurray at bitdance.com>  
wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:31:00 -0400, Richard Leland <rich at richleland.com 
> > wrote:
>> I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with the  
>> process
>> it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be. For instance, if  
>> there was a
>> decision to add 5 new sections with 30 pages of content, which  
>> method would
>> be faster for updating - a through-the-web-based approach or the  
>> existing
>> create files, check in, build? I'm not sure one is faster than the  
>> other and
>> I'm sure there would be varying opinions on that. Maybe the way to  
>> approach
>> this question is thinking about who could be editing the content.  
>> Should it
>> always be technical individuals or should someone with writing  
>> skills be
>> able to update the site as well?
>
> I'm not a current contributor to the python.org content, but I agree
> with everything Skip said about this.  For people who are (python)
> programmers, through-the-web editing is not agile.  ReST pretty much
> *is* text.  The tools are not hard to learn...and perhaps demystifying
> them for those who are scared of them would bring more developers into
> the software community, which would be a great thing.  "Writers" can  
> be
> programmers too, some of them just don't know it :)
>
> --
> R. David Murray                                      www.bitdance.com

From rich at richleland.com  Wed Apr 21 22:26:24 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:26:24 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
Message-ID: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master list
of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology behind
them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and help me
fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!

- python.org (static files w/build system)
- docs.python.org (sphinx documentation)
- wiki.python.org (moinmoin)
- bugs.python.org (roundup)
- planet.python.org
- svn.python.org
- pypi.python.org
- pycon.org
- pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 22:39:05 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:39:05 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Hiring a tech writer
In-Reply-To: <4BCF293A.5000205@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20100421163033.GD15551@panix.com> <4BCF293A.5000205@python.org>
Message-ID: <p2pd34314101004211339h3e134ce8z7ad0b413b1b688e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ? ? ? - I wonder if the PSF might consider funding a competent technical
>>> ? ? ? ? writer with essentially no programming experience to learn the
>>> ? ? ? ? language and produce a good tutorial aimed at complete novices.

JFYI, MIT have just updated their course 6.189 - "A Gentle
Introduction to Programming Using Python"
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-189January--IAP--2010/CourseHome/index.htm

It would be just nice if PSF could cooperate with MIT.
-- 
anatoly t.

From goodger at python.org  Wed Apr 21 22:40:16 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:40:16 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <o2q4335d2c41004211340vd8ecd18ayb28e1b078c3b78e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 16:26, Richard Leland <rich at richleland.com> wrote:
> Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master list
> of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology behind
> them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and help me
> fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
> - python.org (static files w/build system)
> - docs.python.org (sphinx documentation)
> - wiki.python.org (moinmoin)

Note that there are multiple wiki instances running here (/moin =
Python public wiki; /jython; /psf = PSF private wiki; maybe others). I
believe all are running the same version of MoinMoin though.

> - bugs.python.org (roundup)
> - planet.python.org
> - svn.python.org
> - pypi.python.org
> - pycon.org

The content part uses PyCon-Tech, a Django-based system mostly written
by Doug Napoleone.
The registration part is a Web2py-based system written mostly by
Massimo di Pierro & Yarko Tymciurak.
Both run on a dedicated server hosted by Tummy.com, paid for by the PSF.

I believe some old PyCon content (pre-2008) is still hosted on Jeff
Rush's personal server, and may use Zope as a back-end.
www.pycon.org is a single static HTML page still hosted on Jeff's server.

-- David Goodger

> - pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)
> - Rich

From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Apr 21 22:55:14 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:55:14 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF6632.20500@v.loewis.de>

> - python.org <http://python.org> (static files w/build system)
> - docs.python.org <http://docs.python.org> (sphinx documentation)
> - wiki.python.org <http://wiki.python.org> (moinmoin)
> - bugs.python.org <http://bugs.python.org> (roundup)
> - planet.python.org <http://planet.python.org>
> - svn.python.org <http://svn.python.org>
> - pypi.python.org <http://pypi.python.org>
> - pycon.org <http://pycon.org>
> - pyfound.blogspot.com <http://pyfound.blogspot.com> (blogger)

The DNS zone also has these entries (A)

maxx.python.org
pydotorg.python.org
dinsdale.python.org (hostname)
nl.python.org (Dutch site - not part of ecosystem)
mirrors.pypi.python.org (PyPI mirrors)
ximinez.python.org (hostname)
macteagle.python.org (hostname)
albatross.python.org (hostname)
mail.python.org (python.org MX)
darcs.python.org
git.python.org
monotone.python.org
www-mirrors.python.org
ai.python.org
pycamp.python.org
bag.python.org (hostname)

and these entries (CNAME)

archive-www.python.org
beta.python.org
code.python.org (Mercurial)
doc.python.org
ftp.python.org
hg.python.org
testing-www.python.org
paradise.python.org
soc.python.org
media.python.org
stats.python.org
advocacy.python.org
cheeseshop.python.org (alias for PyPI)
packages.python.org (used by PyPI)
submit.python.org

HTH,
Martin

From goodger at python.org  Wed Apr 21 23:00:53 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:00:53 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF4287.9050903@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCF2914.3030209@python.org> <4BCF4287.9050903@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <k2t4335d2c41004211400vf0570731xe199adfc5761369a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 14:23, Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com> wrote:
> The current content maintenance mechanism constrains our site structure
> horribly at times. One task that I find gallingly, ridiculously
> complicated is simply finding out how to contact the PSF. Start at
>
> ?http://python.org/psf/
>
> Clicking on "PSF Details & Contacting the PSF" takes you to
>
> ?http://python.org/psf/#psf-details-contacting-the-psf
>
> where you then click on "Please see About the Python Software
> Foundation." to get to
>
> ?http://python.org/psf/about/
>
> where you then have to identify and click on "How do I reach the PSF?"
> to get to
>
> ?http://python.org/psf/about/#how-do-i-reach-the-psf
>
> where you finally see the information you want.

I just edited the "Please see About the Python Software Foundation"
link be more specific, to remove one step from that.

IMO it would be insane to put the PSF contact information everywhere
that it might be useful, because if we applied that logic to every bit
of useful info, every page would then be inundated with text.

We could add a "Contact the PSF" page, and add it to the Foundation
sub-menu, with links where appropriate. Then we're into the problem of
too many navigation menu items, etc. etc.

We could replace the link on http://python.org/psf/ with the actual
contact info, but then the sponsor list is pushed down even further.
What is the purpose of that page?

I don't have the answers to all of this, but I don't agree that it's
because of the technology. We have a set of static content pages and
navigation menus, which would be the same regardless of the back-end
content management system. There are some ways that I could see a
wiki-like through-the-web editing system as superior (us.pycon.org
uses one, it works well for quick edits and community contributions),
but an SVN checkout of text files comes in handy too (grepping, for
example). I think the technology issue is orthogonal to the content
organization issue. Switching to a live-editing system won't fix the
content organization issue.

I don't follow the rest of your argument, as the meanings of certain
pronouns are unclear:

> While as developers we
> are all too happy to talk about software "use cases", too often there
> seems to be an assumption that all web site users are the same. They
> aren't. As a web professional this screams "incompetence" to me,

"this" above

> and the
> site appears to be the way it is because there is no simple way to store
> that information once and re-use it wherever it is needed.

"that information"

> This is insane,

"This"

> and similar idiocies are doubtless repeated elsewhere.
> Anyone who says we can't do better than that has no future in web
> development ;-).

I think everyone agrees that we can do better. It's not clear that
focusing on the back-end tech will get us there though.

-- David Goodger

> To change things demands that we look critically at the
> site from the point of view of our various categories of user.
>
> I have done some research into the current information architecture, and
> have passed the results along to Rich, who is better placed than me to
> make use of it. There's a lot to do.
>
> regards
> ?Steve
> --
> Steve Holden ? ? ? ? ? +1 571 484 6266 ? +1 800 494 3119
> See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010 ?http://pycon.blip.tv/
> Holden Web LLC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.holdenweb.com/
> UPCOMING EVENTS: ? ? ? ?http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 23:07:59 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:07:59 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h2md34314101004211407x9a2beffzc9cb8a1cccda4e55@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Richard Leland <rich at richleland.com> wrote:
> Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master list
> of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology behind
> them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and help me
> fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
> - python.org (static files w/build system)
> - docs.python.org (sphinx documentation)
> - wiki.python.org (moinmoin)
> - bugs.python.org (roundup)
> - planet.python.org
> - svn.python.org
> - pypi.python.org
> - pycon.org
> - pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)

I am also interested to see licenses for the backend software to be
able to contribute and grab the stuff back.

Some additions from http://code.google.com/p/rainforce/wiki/CentralizedLogin :
# bug trackers
    * main: http://bugs.python.org
    * meta: http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/meta/
    * setuptools: http://bugs.python.org/setuptools/
    * pypi: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=66150&atid=513503
# wiki
    * main: http://wiki.python.org/moin/
    * jython: http://wiki.python.org/jython/
# mailing lists
    * http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
# mailman private archives
    * http://mail.python.org/mailman/private/pydotorg/
    * http://mail.python.org/mailman/private/soc2010-mentors/

I would call this '''inventory'''.
-- 
anatoly t.

From mfoord at python.org  Wed Apr 21 23:37:12 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:37:12 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>

On 21/04/2010 20:56, R. David Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:31:00 -0400, Richard Leland<rich at richleland.com>  wrote:
>    
>> I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with the process
>> it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be. For instance, if there was a
>> decision to add 5 new sections with 30 pages of content, which method would
>> be faster for updating - a through-the-web-based approach or the existing
>> create files, check in, build? I'm not sure one is faster than the other and
>> I'm sure there would be varying opinions on that. Maybe the way to approach
>> this question is thinking about who could be editing the content. Should it
>> always be technical individuals or should someone with writing skills be
>> able to update the site as well?
>>      
> I'm not a current contributor to the python.org content, but I agree
> with everything Skip said about this.  For people who are (python)
> programmers, through-the-web editing is not agile.  ReST pretty much
> *is* text.  The tools are not hard to learn...and perhaps demystifying
> them for those who are scared of them would bring more developers into
> the software community, which would be a great thing.  "Writers" can be
> programmers too, some of them just don't know it :)
>    
Right - but it makes the *minimum* barrier for entry to contribute 
changes doing a full svn checkout, making changes in rest format (which 
I'm not proposing we drop as it goes) and then generating a patch (which 
then goes where?).

For a non-programming copy editor (for example) who wants to help this 
is a *huge* burden involving the command line and a whole bunch of 
tools. Absolutely no need for it to be this arcane. Just because they 
are tools that *we* as programmers are familiar with (and not all 
programmers are by any stretch of the imagination) is no reason to make 
it so complex.

There is also no conceptual reason that we couldn't come up with a 
system that allows both ways of working (a through the web system that 
generates patches for example) - but insisting we stick with the current 
system because we are familiar with it and have no reason to change is 
not good.

Michael


> --
> R. David Murray                                      www.bitdance.com
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 23:50:05 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:50:05 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <4BCF6632.20500@v.loewis.de>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCF6632.20500@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <q2od34314101004211450ud99cffbas9f2f4c6ab524e327@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:55 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:

> code.python.org (Mercurial)
> hg.python.org

different Mercurials, BTW

> paradise.python.org

In an imperfect world to get into paradise you need to fix it first. =)

-- 
anatoly t.

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 00:44:21 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:44:21 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BCF7FC5.2050504@v.loewis.de>

> For a non-programming copy editor (for example) who wants to help this
> is a *huge* burden involving the command line and a whole bunch of
> tools. Absolutely no need for it to be this arcane. Just because they
> are tools that *we* as programmers are familiar with (and not all
> programmers are by any stretch of the imagination) is no reason to make
> it so complex.

For this discussion, I'd like to know what specific editor you have in
mind, and what specific change they would want to make to the site.

I'd claim that you are talking about an empty set.

Regards,
Martin

From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Apr 22 00:49:11 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:49:11 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BCF80E7.9080001@holdenweb.com>

Michael Foord wrote:
> On 21/04/2010 20:56, R. David Murray wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:31:00 -0400, Richard
>> Leland<rich at richleland.com>  wrote:
>>   
>>> I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with the
>>> process
>>> it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be. For instance, if there
>>> was a
>>> decision to add 5 new sections with 30 pages of content, which method
>>> would
>>> be faster for updating - a through-the-web-based approach or the
>>> existing
>>> create files, check in, build? I'm not sure one is faster than the
>>> other and
>>> I'm sure there would be varying opinions on that. Maybe the way to
>>> approach
>>> this question is thinking about who could be editing the content.
>>> Should it
>>> always be technical individuals or should someone with writing skills be
>>> able to update the site as well?
>>>      
>> I'm not a current contributor to the python.org content, but I agree
>> with everything Skip said about this.  For people who are (python)
>> programmers, through-the-web editing is not agile.  ReST pretty much
>> *is* text.  The tools are not hard to learn...and perhaps demystifying
>> them for those who are scared of them would bring more developers into
>> the software community, which would be a great thing.  "Writers" can be
>> programmers too, some of them just don't know it :)
>>    
> Right - but it makes the *minimum* barrier for entry to contribute
> changes doing a full svn checkout, making changes in rest format (which
> I'm not proposing we drop as it goes) and then generating a patch (which
> then goes where?).
> 
> For a non-programming copy editor (for example) who wants to help this
> is a *huge* burden involving the command line and a whole bunch of
> tools. Absolutely no need for it to be this arcane. Just because they
> are tools that *we* as programmers are familiar with (and not all
> programmers are by any stretch of the imagination) is no reason to make
> it so complex.
> 
> There is also no conceptual reason that we couldn't come up with a
> system that allows both ways of working (a through the web system that
> generates patches for example) - but insisting we stick with the current
> system because we are familiar with it and have no reason to change is
> not good.
> 
+1
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Apr 22 01:25:42 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 01:25:42 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan (and the "agile" label)
In-Reply-To: <4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
Message-ID: <201004220125.42636.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Wednesday 21 April 2010 23:37:12 Michael Foord wrote:
> On 21/04/2010 20:56, R. David Murray wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:31:00 -0400, Richard Leland<rich at richleland.com>  
wrote:
> >> I agree with Michael - as someone that is getting familiar with the
> >> process it just doesn't seem as agile as it could be. For instance, if
> >> there was a decision to add 5 new sections with 30 pages of content,
> >> which method would be faster for updating - a through-the-web-based
> >> approach or the existing create files, check in, build?

It depends on what people think "agile" means. If you're doing bulk updating 
of stuff, you probably need a more efficient approach than manually creating 
Wiki pages, say, and copying the text in. That said, there are ways of adding 
content in bulk to a Wiki.

> >>                                                         I'm not sure one 
> >> is faster than the other and I'm sure there would be varying opinions on
> >> that. Maybe the way to approach this question is thinking about who
> >> could be editing the content. Should it always be technical individuals
> >> or should someone with writing skills be able to update the site as
> >> well?

The "consensus" in python.org circles until now has been to keep access 
restricted to a group of people who are likely to regard the current 
technical barriers as acceptable.

> > I'm not a current contributor to the python.org content, but I agree
> > with everything Skip said about this.  For people who are (python)
> > programmers, through-the-web editing is not agile.  ReST pretty much
> > *is* text.  The tools are not hard to learn...and perhaps demystifying
> > them for those who are scared of them would bring more developers into
> > the software community, which would be a great thing.  "Writers" can be
> > programmers too, some of them just don't know it :)

Firstly, I have to say that I dislike ReST: I used Zope's Structured Text from 
the beginning, and ReST is quite an inelegant extension of the concept, ugly 
even compared to some of the nastier Wiki syntaxes (and let us not venture 
close to Markdown). I also have to say that if "agile" is getting things done 
in an interactive, "low barrier to entry" fashion, than through-the-Web 
editing has won. See my note about the other interpretation of "agile" above.

> Right - but it makes the *minimum* barrier for entry to contribute
> changes doing a full svn checkout, making changes in rest format (which
> I'm not proposing we drop as it goes) and then generating a patch (which
> then goes where?).

Agreed. Unless "agile" means something about lengthening the workflow, too. I 
think Anatoly has a page describing the documentation feedback workflow and 
it isn't pretty.

> For a non-programming copy editor (for example) who wants to help this
> is a *huge* burden involving the command line and a whole bunch of
> tools. Absolutely no need for it to be this arcane. Just because they
> are tools that *we* as programmers are familiar with (and not all
> programmers are by any stretch of the imagination) is no reason to make
> it so complex.

Personally, I'd rather not have very much to do with Subversion, either. I 
totally sympathise with the notion of a Web publishing system under a 
conventional version control system with a build framework taking care of 
content generation, but to some outsider who upon browsing the site sees 
something that could be quickly fixed, it's like making them go to another 
planet.

> There is also no conceptual reason that we couldn't come up with a
> system that allows both ways of working (a through the web system that
> generates patches for example) - but insisting we stick with the current
> system because we are familiar with it and have no reason to change is
> not good.

Well, I don't have access to python.org's content system, but I have been 
given the keys to its counterpart on the EuroPython site, and (once again) 
while I can see the benefits of such a system, it's not hard to catalogue its 
deficiencies compared to a Wiki:

You need a shell account, which is asking for a lot more than getting a Wiki 
account.

You need to be familiar with the system layout, which requires that someone 
shows you the way or assumes that you can find your way around, whereas most 
Wiki interfaces are already familiar to many people.

You need to know the toolchain: a README file helps, but most people's 
familiarity is likely to be a lot lower with even a popular toolchain than 
with a Wiki.

You also have to like the chosen content format: although people can complain 
about Wiki syntax, they're more likely to have already seen, and perhaps even 
prefer, such things in comparison to the YAML/ReST hybrid apparently 
preferred by the python.org system.

Content previewing is clumsy, although it is possible to change many pages in 
one editing session, whereas a Wiki will let you preview stuff quite 
naturally in the same interface.

One key measure of whether a system is really doing its job fully in 
supporting a collaborative editing environment is whether people have to ask 
other people to make some change or other. Another measure is whether all the 
responsible people are routinely making changes in an environment, anyway. 
For EuroPython, people (even the important people like John) can just go and 
change the Wiki, whereas for the main site people have to ask other people to 
change stuff. If "agile" is getting your content up quickly, guess which 
system is most "agile" there!

So, I draw on actual experience in preference to asserting that vague terms 
like "agile" apply to one solution or another. If you want a diverse range of 
contributors - people who are motivated to edit that topic guide of 
non-interest to, say, the core developers - you're more likely to get them 
with a through-the-Web system.

Paul

P.S. Although making a grand plan is a positive thing, I'd also like to see 
some progress being made on updating the existing parts of the python.org 
infrastructure, some of which could usefully do with some long-overdue 
updates and upgrades.

From amk at amk.ca  Thu Apr 22 01:51:39 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:51:39 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100421235139.GA6720@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 04:26:24PM -0400, Richard Leland wrote:
> - pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)

@ThePSF on Twitter.
PyCon 2008/2009 Facebook groups.

There's a LinkedIn PyCon group; I don't know who holds the keys to that.

--amk

From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Apr 22 02:57:14 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:57:14 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <20100421235139.GA6720@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421235139.GA6720@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BCF9EEA.7070703@holdenweb.com>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 04:26:24PM -0400, Richard Leland wrote:
>> - pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)
> 
> @ThePSF on Twitter.
> PyCon 2008/2009 Facebook groups.
> 
> There's a LinkedIn PyCon group; I don't know who holds the keys to that.
> 
This reminds me that there's a Python page on Facebook now, with over
11,200 likers ...

  http://www.facebook.com/pythonlang

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From skip at pobox.com  Thu Apr 22 03:08:25 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:08:25 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
Message-ID: <19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Michael> Just because they are tools that *we* as programmers are
    Michael> familiar with (and not all programmers are by any stretch of
    Michael> the imagination) is no reason to make it so complex.

But change for the (apparent) sake of change seems wrong to me.  I have yet
to see a concrete proposal for what you would use to replace the current
technology or who the potential users of the current technology are who have
been unable to surmount the current barriers.

    Michael> There is also no conceptual reason that we couldn't come up
    Michael> with a system that allows both ways of working (a through the
    Michael> web system that generates patches for example) - but insisting
    Michael> we stick with the current system because we are familiar with
    Michael> it and have no reason to change is not good.

That would seem to fall into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
category.

I suspect that the initial impetus for this effort was that the website
content needs significant rework.  For the time being at least I think it
would be best to focus on the new/revised content and structure and leave
the tools as-is.  I'll grant that the current tools used to maintain the
website aren't for everyone, but they work for the people who currently
twiddle the bits and they will get the job done without requiring a big
investment in developing new tools or adapting other off-the-shelf tools to
handle our specific needs.  The last time the site was redesigned Tim
Parking spent a large amount of time developing a new tool set, then a
couple years later Andrew Kuchling reworked them to get them to the state
they are in today.

Skip

From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 03:46:47 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:46:47 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:08 PM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> ? ?Michael> Just because they are tools that *we* as programmers are
> ? ?Michael> familiar with (and not all programmers are by any stretch of
> ? ?Michael> the imagination) is no reason to make it so complex.
>
> But change for the (apparent) sake of change seems wrong to me. ?I have yet
> to see a concrete proposal for what you would use to replace the current
> technology or who the potential users of the current technology are who have
> been unable to surmount the current barriers.

There is no proposal because Rich is evaluating the requirements of
such a tool Skip. We are discussing the various use cases, users,
consumers and creators. A proposal and project plan will be developed.
We are only in the discussion/requirements planning phase.

> ? ?Michael> There is also no conceptual reason that we couldn't come up
> ? ?Michael> with a system that allows both ways of working (a through the
> ? ?Michael> web system that generates patches for example) - but insisting
> ? ?Michael> we stick with the current system because we are familiar with
> ? ?Michael> it and have no reason to change is not good.
>
> That would seem to fall into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
> category.

We've always been at war with Eurasia.

> I suspect that the initial impetus for this effort was that the website
> content needs significant rework. ?For the time being at least I think it
> would be best to focus on the new/revised content and structure and leave
> the tools as-is. ?I'll grant that the current tools used to maintain the
> website aren't for everyone, but they work for the people who currently
> twiddle the bits and they will get the job done without requiring a big
> investment in developing new tools or adapting other off-the-shelf tools to
> handle our specific needs. ?The last time the site was redesigned Tim
> Parking spent a large amount of time developing a new tool set, then a
> couple years later Andrew Kuchling reworked them to get them to the state
> they are in today.

Just because things "sorta work" right now, for "a select subset of
the technologically elite" (of which, all of us discussing us are part
of) does not mean the system is Good or Complete. The goal, as I
understand (and have been encouraging on the PSF list and elsewhere)
is to examine the current state of tools, and content and not only do
a redesign of the look and feel of the site itself, but also improve
the tool chain to reduce the friction of contribution.

As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in which
the conversation goes like this:

Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the docs,
they're easy to fix!"
Them: <rummaging>
Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay me*.
Me: Please file a bug at least!
Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
deal with it.

Daily. I have these conversations *daily*. It is a firm, and total
belief of mine that almost anyone using, documenting, testing with, or
writing tools for/in python today can become an active contributor to
Python as a whole - no matter how insignificant the contribution is.

In order to help that belief though; I'm firmly in the camp which is
asking we modernize the tool chain - offer a web-based
comment/feedback tool ala the Django Book, a CMS for the
less-programming-inclined to add content (and correct it, or even to
auto-submit patches). Using mercurial for patch/code management, etc.

This is not a matter of killing the contributors that have gotten us
this far; it's about bringing in more people by lowering the barrier,
friction, and time it takes to become a *contributing* member.

As I understand the current undertaking which spurred this discussion
- this is a requirements and feedback gathering project, which will
beget RFPs/Proposals which the PSF itself will fund or guide the
development of. I don't think having modern tools, a modern look and
feel, cleaner layout and organization is bad in any way.

jesse

From richard at python.org  Thu Apr 22 03:55:28 2010
From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:55:28 +1000
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <x2i249b6faa1004211855pa31000adu3b41f0a6c5a98ee8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 11:08 AM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
> ? ?Michael> Just because they are tools that *we* as programmers are
> ? ?Michael> familiar with (and not all programmers are by any stretch of
> ? ?Michael> the imagination) is no reason to make it so complex.
>
> But change for the (apparent) sake of change seems wrong to me. ?I have yet
> to see a concrete proposal for what you would use to replace the current
> technology or who the potential users of the current technology are who have
> been unable to surmount the current barriers.

I seem to recall Fredrik Lundh implemented a system allowing
through-the-web editing of site content when the website redesign was
done last time. I was quite in favour of that system; a few times now
I've asked for someone to make a relatively trivial change to the
website because I don't know how to update the site, or have the
toolchain installed, or whatever.


     Richard

From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Apr 22 04:04:08 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:04:08 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCFAE98.2090607@holdenweb.com>

Jesse Noller wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:08 PM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>>    Michael> Just because they are tools that *we* as programmers are
>>    Michael> familiar with (and not all programmers are by any stretch of
>>    Michael> the imagination) is no reason to make it so complex.
>>
>> But change for the (apparent) sake of change seems wrong to me.  I have yet
>> to see a concrete proposal for what you would use to replace the current
>> technology or who the potential users of the current technology are who have
>> been unable to surmount the current barriers.
> 
> There is no proposal because Rich is evaluating the requirements of
> such a tool Skip. We are discussing the various use cases, users,
> consumers and creators. A proposal and project plan will be developed.
> We are only in the discussion/requirements planning phase.
> 
>>    Michael> There is also no conceptual reason that we couldn't come up
>>    Michael> with a system that allows both ways of working (a through the
>>    Michael> web system that generates patches for example) - but insisting
>>    Michael> we stick with the current system because we are familiar with
>>    Michael> it and have no reason to change is not good.
>>
>> That would seem to fall into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
>> category.
> 
> We've always been at war with Eurasia.
> 
>> I suspect that the initial impetus for this effort was that the website
>> content needs significant rework.  For the time being at least I think it
>> would be best to focus on the new/revised content and structure and leave
>> the tools as-is.  I'll grant that the current tools used to maintain the
>> website aren't for everyone, but they work for the people who currently
>> twiddle the bits and they will get the job done without requiring a big
>> investment in developing new tools or adapting other off-the-shelf tools to
>> handle our specific needs.  The last time the site was redesigned Tim
>> Parking spent a large amount of time developing a new tool set, then a
>> couple years later Andrew Kuchling reworked them to get them to the state
>> they are in today.
> 
> Just because things "sorta work" right now, for "a select subset of
> the technologically elite" (of which, all of us discussing us are part
> of) does not mean the system is Good or Complete. The goal, as I
> understand (and have been encouraging on the PSF list and elsewhere)
> is to examine the current state of tools, and content and not only do
> a redesign of the look and feel of the site itself, but also improve
> the tool chain to reduce the friction of contribution.
> 
> As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in which
> the conversation goes like this:
> 
> Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
> Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the docs,
> they're easy to fix!"
> Them: <rummaging>
> Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
> code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay me*.
> Me: Please file a bug at least!
> Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
> deal with it.
> 
> Daily. I have these conversations *daily*. It is a firm, and total
> belief of mine that almost anyone using, documenting, testing with, or
> writing tools for/in python today can become an active contributor to
> Python as a whole - no matter how insignificant the contribution is.
> 
> In order to help that belief though; I'm firmly in the camp which is
> asking we modernize the tool chain - offer a web-based
> comment/feedback tool ala the Django Book, a CMS for the
> less-programming-inclined to add content (and correct it, or even to
> auto-submit patches). Using mercurial for patch/code management, etc.
> 
> This is not a matter of killing the contributors that have gotten us
> this far; it's about bringing in more people by lowering the barrier,
> friction, and time it takes to become a *contributing* member.
> 
> As I understand the current undertaking which spurred this discussion
> - this is a requirements and feedback gathering project, which will
> beget RFPs/Proposals which the PSF itself will fund or guide the
> development of. I don't think having modern tools, a modern look and
> feel, cleaner layout and organization is bad in any way.

I understand Skip's desire to bring some existing content up to date
without waiting for the "grand plan", but surely if what he says is true
then the only thing stopping it happening is the difficulty of making it
happen? I'm certainly not saying that we can't edit the current content.
In fact I'd be happy to see it edited.

I believe that there are large pools of untapped resources, which would
include the people you quote above. I also believe there are high
barriers to entry, some of which are social and some of which are
technical. I think that lowering the technical barriers might also allow
us to loosen some of the social barriers. "Empowerment" is what's
needed. People like Skip need to know that they can just go and edit the
site as they want, without asking for permission.

The ability to revert undesired changes would clearly be valuable, but
in Skip's case is unlikely to be required.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From skip at pobox.com  Thu Apr 22 04:45:07 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:45:07 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19407.47155.145326.472560@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Jesse> Just because things "sorta work" right now, for "a select subset
    Jesse> of the technologically elite" (of which, all of us discussing us
    Jesse> are part of) does not mean the system is Good or Complete. The
    Jesse> goal, as I understand (and have been encouraging on the PSF list
    Jesse> and elsewhere) is to examine the current state of tools, and
    Jesse> content and not only do a redesign of the look and feel of the
    Jesse> site itself, but also improve the tool chain to reduce the
    Jesse> friction of contribution.

Let me be more blunt.  Focus on the content and site structure now.  Work on
tools later.

Skip

From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 04:46:25 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:46:25 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCFAE98.2090607@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFAE98.2090607@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <F0B1BEEF-3EF0-49DC-A5BE-2D285060E5E3@gmail.com>



On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com> wrote:

> Jesse Noller wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:08 PM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>>>   Michael> Just because they are tools that *we* as programmers are
>>>   Michael> familiar with (and not all programmers are by any  
>>> stretch of
>>>   Michael> the imagination) is no reason to make it so complex.
>>>
>>> But change for the (apparent) sake of change seems wrong to me.  I  
>>> have yet
>>> to see a concrete proposal for what you would use to replace the  
>>> current
>>> technology or who the potential users of the current technology  
>>> are who have
>>> been unable to surmount the current barriers.
>>
>> There is no proposal because Rich is evaluating the requirements of
>> such a tool Skip. We are discussing the various use cases, users,
>> consumers and creators. A proposal and project plan will be  
>> developed.
>> We are only in the discussion/requirements planning phase.
>>
>>>   Michael> There is also no conceptual reason that we couldn't  
>>> come up
>>>   Michael> with a system that allows both ways of working (a  
>>> through the
>>>   Michael> web system that generates patches for example) - but  
>>> insisting
>>>   Michael> we stick with the current system because we are  
>>> familiar with
>>>   Michael> it and have no reason to change is not good.
>>>
>>> That would seem to fall into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
>>> category.
>>
>> We've always been at war with Eurasia.
>>
>>> I suspect that the initial impetus for this effort was that the  
>>> website
>>> content needs significant rework.  For the time being at least I  
>>> think it
>>> would be best to focus on the new/revised content and structure  
>>> and leave
>>> the tools as-is.  I'll grant that the current tools used to  
>>> maintain the
>>> website aren't for everyone, but they work for the people who  
>>> currently
>>> twiddle the bits and they will get the job done without requiring  
>>> a big
>>> investment in developing new tools or adapting other off-the-shelf  
>>> tools to
>>> handle our specific needs.  The last time the site was redesigned  
>>> Tim
>>> Parking spent a large amount of time developing a new tool set,  
>>> then a
>>> couple years later Andrew Kuchling reworked them to get them to  
>>> the state
>>> they are in today.
>>
>> Just because things "sorta work" right now, for "a select subset of
>> the technologically elite" (of which, all of us discussing us are  
>> part
>> of) does not mean the system is Good or Complete. The goal, as I
>> understand (and have been encouraging on the PSF list and elsewhere)
>> is to examine the current state of tools, and content and not only do
>> a redesign of the look and feel of the site itself, but also improve
>> the tool chain to reduce the friction of contribution.
>>
>> As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in  
>> which
>> the conversation goes like this:
>>
>> Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
>> Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the  
>> docs,
>> they're easy to fix!"
>> Them: <rummaging>
>> Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
>> code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay  
>> me*.
>> Me: Please file a bug at least!
>> Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
>> deal with it.
>>
>> Daily. I have these conversations *daily*. It is a firm, and total
>> belief of mine that almost anyone using, documenting, testing with,  
>> or
>> writing tools for/in python today can become an active contributor to
>> Python as a whole - no matter how insignificant the contribution is.
>>
>> In order to help that belief though; I'm firmly in the camp which is
>> asking we modernize the tool chain - offer a web-based
>> comment/feedback tool ala the Django Book, a CMS for the
>> less-programming-inclined to add content (and correct it, or even to
>> auto-submit patches). Using mercurial for patch/code management, etc.
>>
>> This is not a matter of killing the contributors that have gotten us
>> this far; it's about bringing in more people by lowering the barrier,
>> friction, and time it takes to become a *contributing* member.
>>
>> As I understand the current undertaking which spurred this discussion
>> - this is a requirements and feedback gathering project, which will
>> beget RFPs/Proposals which the PSF itself will fund or guide the
>> development of. I don't think having modern tools, a modern look and
>> feel, cleaner layout and organization is bad in any way.
>
> I understand Skip's desire to bring some existing content up to date
> without waiting for the "grand plan", but surely if what he says is  
> true
> then the only thing stopping it happening is the difficulty of  
> making it
> happen? I'm certainly not saying that we can't edit the current  
> content.
> In fact I'd be happy to see it edited.
>
> I believe that there are large pools of untapped resources, which  
> would
> include the people you quote above. I also believe there are high
> barriers to entry, some of which are social and some of which are
> technical. I think that lowering the technical barriers might also  
> allow
> us to loosen some of the social barriers. "Empowerment" is what's
> needed. People like Skip need to know that they can just go and edit  
> the
> site as they want, without asking for permission.
>
> The ability to revert undesired changes would clearly be valuable, but
> in Skip's case is unlikely to be required.
>

I think we violently agree.

From skip at pobox.com  Thu Apr 22 04:47:01 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:47:01 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCFAE98.2090607@holdenweb.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFAE98.2090607@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <19407.47269.793389.309784@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Steve> I believe that there are large pools of untapped resources, which
    Steve> would include the people you quote above.

I believe, "if you build it they will come" is only true in the movies.

Skip

From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Apr 22 04:52:35 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:52:35 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.47269.793389.309784@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFAE98.2090607@holdenweb.com>
	<19407.47269.793389.309784@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BCFB9F3.5000103@holdenweb.com>

skip at pobox.com wrote:
>     Steve> I believe that there are large pools of untapped resources, which
>     Steve> would include the people you quote above.
> 
> I believe, "if you build it they will come" is only true in the movies.
> 
I believe the site is stagnant.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 04:55:34 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:55:34 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19407.47155.145326.472560@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.47155.145326.472560@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <BF0E8687-9420-4EAE-BBCB-606464BE38C3@gmail.com>





On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:45 PM, skip at pobox.com wrote:

> 
>    Jesse> Just because things "sorta work" right now, for "a select subset
>    Jesse> of the technologically elite" (of which, all of us discussing us
>    Jesse> are part of) does not mean the system is Good or Complete. The
>    Jesse> goal, as I understand (and have been encouraging on the PSF list
>    Jesse> and elsewhere) is to examine the current state of tools, and
>    Jesse> content and not only do a redesign of the look and feel of the
>    Jesse> site itself, but also improve the tool chain to reduce the
>    Jesse> friction of contribution.
> 
> Let me be more blunt.  Focus on the content and site structure now.  Work on
> tools later.
> 
> Skip

The only work being done is speccing out a project plan, so your point is moot.

From ctrachte at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 05:38:46 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:38:46 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <BF0E8687-9420-4EAE-BBCB-606464BE38C3@gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.47155.145326.472560@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<BF0E8687-9420-4EAE-BBCB-606464BE38C3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2z426ada671004212038k8a7d09e9zf17d61d2451be14d@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/21/10, Jesse Noller <jnoller at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:45 PM, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>
>>
>>    Jesse> Just because things "sorta work" right now, for "a select subset
>>    Jesse> of the technologically elite" (of which, all of us discussing us
>>    Jesse> are part of) does not mean the system is Good or Complete. The
>>    Jesse> goal, as I understand (and have been encouraging on the PSF list
>>    Jesse> and elsewhere) is to examine the current state of tools, and
>>    Jesse> content and not only do a redesign of the look and feel of the
>>    Jesse> site itself, but also improve the tool chain to reduce the
>>    Jesse> friction of contribution.
>>
>> Let me be more blunt.  Focus on the content and site structure now.  Work
>> on
>> tools later.
>>
>> Skip
>
> The only work being done is speccing out a project plan, so your point is
> moot.
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

FWIW, I've had excellent luck with content addition on the Wiki, even
when I was being kind of incompetent and a pain in Skip and Paul
Boddie's butts.

I still add a fair bit of content daily.  It doesn't make the site
maintainers' jobs any easier; those people have been very helpful and
patient with me.  If the current discourse is constructive, please
forgive my interrupting.  Otherwise it might be a good idea to sleep
on it, step back, and identify where the best place to start is.

My own preference is to let Richard shape things a bit more (right
now, his doc is a start) and work with what he lays out.  No, I don't
have the skill set to do a lot of the heavy lifting, but I do have a
little skin in the game and have demonstrated some trainability.

Apologies if I've spoken out of turn.

Carl T.

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 07:26:22 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 07:26:22 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>

> As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in which
> the conversation goes like this:
> 
> Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
> Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the docs,
> they're easy to fix!"
> Them: <rummaging>
> Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
> code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay me*.
> Me: Please file a bug at least!
> Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
> deal with it.

Can you please give three or four examples of the changes they would
like to see made? Please be as specific as possible.

Thanks,
Martin

From skip at pobox.com  Thu Apr 22 13:14:09 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:14:09 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <19408.12161.520244.637893@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    >> As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in
    >> which the conversation goes like this:
    >> 
    >> Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
    >> Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the docs,
    >> they're easy to fix!"
    >> Them: <rummaging>
    >> Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
    >> code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay me*.
    >> Me: Please file a bug at least!
    >> Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
    >> deal with it.

    Martin> Can you please give three or four examples of the changes they
    Martin> would like to see made? Please be as specific as possible.

The simplest and most effective way to report a problem with a website --
any website -- is to send an email to webmaster at wherever.com describing the
problem.  I have been on both the sending and receiving end of such emails.
In the case of python.org, as one of the webmasters if I can fix it quickly,
I do so.  If it looks like it's going to be more involved I pass it along to
pydotorg.

Skip


From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Thu Apr 22 15:31:51 2010
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:31:51 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100422133152.006A91FFE6C@kimball.webabinitio.net>

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:37:12 +0200, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> Right - but it makes the *minimum* barrier for entry to contribute 
> changes doing a full svn checkout, making changes in rest format (which 
> I'm not proposing we drop as it goes) and then generating a patch (which 
> then goes where?).
> 
> For a non-programming copy editor (for example) who wants to help this 
> is a *huge* burden involving the command line and a whole bunch of 
> tools. Absolutely no need for it to be this arcane. Just because they 
> are tools that *we* as programmers are familiar with (and not all 
> programmers are by any stretch of the imagination) is no reason to make 
> it so complex.

This perception that source code management systems are "a huge burden"
puzzles me.  The office people that work for one of my clients are doing
quite well using the Windows GUI front end to CVS.  The CVS repository
holds all the operating documents for the company.  We are definitely
talking non-programmers in that case.  And I have read an article by
graphic designers for graphic designers talking about the advantages
of using a source code management system to keep track of web site
development work.

The perception that "the command line is hard (evil)" also puzzles me.
I think everyone can learn to use the command line, and that most
people would appreciate its power once they learned.  For that matter,
I think everyone can learn, and would benefit from learning, to program
at least to the level of scripting (and most power users do; if anything
writing macros for various Microsoft products is *harder* than "real"
programming).

But all of that is just my opinion, and I'm not going to insist that
people learn these things in order to contribute, as long as our tools
continue to support the command line as well.  What I'm interested in
is a system that works for the community as a whole,  and trust that
this process will produce it.  Lowering the initial barrier to entry is
very desirable, but in doing so it seems to make sense to  respect the
aspects of the current system that work well.

I believe Rich talked about a process of incremental improvement,
which I would heartily approve.  My biggest worry would be that we'd
end up with a grand project to re-engineer everything from scratch
which would wind up producing a system that is not even as effective
for the community as what we have now.

--
R. David Murray                                      www.bitdance.com

From techtonik at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 21:27:50 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:27:50 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <20100422133152.006A91FFE6C@kimball.webabinitio.net>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<20100422133152.006A91FFE6C@kimball.webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <n2wd34314101004221227p20eda8fdj48b3dc2b1fdefb0d@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I can't follow. It is almost 60! pages of discussion. For the
sake of progress, can somebody summarize this in a new thread? Thanks.
I'll try to review this thread, but can't promise.

P.S. It would be nice to see changed subjects when topic is diverged.
-- 
anatoly t.

From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 21:29:48 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:29:48 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <n2wd34314101004221227p20eda8fdj48b3dc2b1fdefb0d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<20100422133152.006A91FFE6C@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<n2wd34314101004221227p20eda8fdj48b3dc2b1fdefb0d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <j2x4222a8491004221229r712d72betfcdc4d81f0d9861b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:27 PM, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I can't follow. It is almost 60! pages of discussion. For the
> sake of progress, can somebody summarize this in a new thread? Thanks.
> I'll try to review this thread, but can't promise.
>
> P.S. It would be nice to see changed subjects when topic is diverged.
> --
> anatoly t.

I'm sure Rich will summarize feedback and other data as needed in the
project plan. I don't see any sort of need to summarize the discussion
in yet another thread which will get "too long to read".

jesse

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Apr 22 21:34:53 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:34:53 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <x2i249b6faa1004211855pa31000adu3b41f0a6c5a98ee8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<x2i249b6faa1004211855pa31000adu3b41f0a6c5a98ee8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201004222134.54208.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Thursday 22 April 2010 03:55:28 Richard Jones wrote:
>
> I seem to recall Fredrik Lundh implemented a system allowing
> through-the-web editing of site content when the website redesign was
> done last time. I was quite in favour of that system; a few times now
> I've asked for someone to make a relatively trivial change to the
> website because I don't know how to update the site, or have the
> toolchain installed, or whatever.

Was it this...?

http://effbot.org/zone/pydotorg.htm

It seems that the Django stuff was to aggregate, "mash up" or frame different 
content and for caching. I'd imagine you could go most of the way now just by 
using MoinMoin.

Paul

From rich at richleland.com  Thu Apr 22 21:40:28 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:40:28 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <j2x4222a8491004221229r712d72betfcdc4d81f0d9861b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<20100422133152.006A91FFE6C@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<n2wd34314101004221227p20eda8fdj48b3dc2b1fdefb0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<j2x4222a8491004221229r712d72betfcdc4d81f0d9861b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <o2o8e236d371004221240kd9dad2a0j9d142d604c8c8c80@mail.gmail.com>

Yep - I'll pull this all together and summarize.

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Jesse Noller <jnoller at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:27 PM, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Sorry, I can't follow. It is almost 60! pages of discussion. For the
> > sake of progress, can somebody summarize this in a new thread? Thanks.
> > I'll try to review this thread, but can't promise.
> >
> > P.S. It would be nice to see changed subjects when topic is diverged.
> > --
> > anatoly t.
>
> I'm sure Rich will summarize feedback and other data as needed in the
> project plan. I don't see any sort of need to summarize the discussion
> in yet another thread which will get "too long to read".
>
> jesse
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 21:45:29 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:45:29 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:26 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in which
>> the conversation goes like this:
>>
>> Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
>> Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the docs,
>> they're easy to fix!"
>> Them: <rummaging>
>> Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
>> code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay me*.
>> Me: Please file a bug at least!
>> Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
>> deal with it.
>
> Can you please give three or four examples of the changes they would
> like to see made? Please be as specific as possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Martin
>

Rather then trying to randomly summarize discussion spanning about two
years mixed with gut feelings, I took the discussion public:

http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1285897

jesse

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Apr 22 21:46:55 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:46:55 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <x2z426ada671004212038k8a7d09e9zf17d61d2451be14d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<BF0E8687-9420-4EAE-BBCB-606464BE38C3@gmail.com>
	<x2z426ada671004212038k8a7d09e9zf17d61d2451be14d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201004222146.55915.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Thursday 22 April 2010 05:38:46 Carl Trachte wrote:
>
> FWIW, I've had excellent luck with content addition on the Wiki, even
> when I was being kind of incompetent and a pain in Skip and Paul
> Boddie's butts.

To be fair, Carl was never really incompetent. :-) Actually, Carl represents 
very well someone who came in as an outsider and has edited content 
significantly and successfully.

> I still add a fair bit of content daily.  It doesn't make the site
> maintainers' jobs any easier; those people have been very helpful and
> patient with me.  If the current discourse is constructive, please
> forgive my interrupting.  Otherwise it might be a good idea to sleep
> on it, step back, and identify where the best place to start is.

I don't think anyone has any problem with your edits, Carl. You've managed to 
figure out any tricky technical issues and get on with what you intended to 
do, I think. From being someone who hadn't edited the Wiki before, as far as 
I know, to being a regular contributor, all in a short period of time, just 
goes to show how the process of widening the collaborator base is supposed to 
work.

Indeed, it's quite a contrast to the mindset that (justifiably or not) applied 
to other assets until recently: that people are not to be trusted and where 
motivated people get turned away because a relatively small group of people 
with their own networks of acquaintances happen not to have heard of them.

> My own preference is to let Richard shape things a bit more (right
> now, his doc is a start) and work with what he lays out.  No, I don't
> have the skill set to do a lot of the heavy lifting, but I do have a
> little skin in the game and have demonstrated some trainability.
>
> Apologies if I've spoken out of turn.

I think we should be asking more people like you about these matters, and you 
don't need to apologise for that. :-)

Paul

From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 21:48:46 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:48:46 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <201004222146.55915.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<BF0E8687-9420-4EAE-BBCB-606464BE38C3@gmail.com>
	<x2z426ada671004212038k8a7d09e9zf17d61d2451be14d@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004222146.55915.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <s2l4222a8491004221248wf30cb098m48f04e6c06dc0a68@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thursday 22 April 2010 05:38:46 Carl Trachte wrote:
>>
>> FWIW, I've had excellent luck with content addition on the Wiki, even
>> when I was being kind of incompetent and a pain in Skip and Paul
>> Boddie's butts.
>
> To be fair, Carl was never really incompetent. :-) Actually, Carl represents
> very well someone who came in as an outsider and has edited content
> significantly and successfully.
>
>> I still add a fair bit of content daily. ?It doesn't make the site
>> maintainers' jobs any easier; those people have been very helpful and
>> patient with me. ?If the current discourse is constructive, please
>> forgive my interrupting. ?Otherwise it might be a good idea to sleep
>> on it, step back, and identify where the best place to start is.
>
> I don't think anyone has any problem with your edits, Carl. You've managed to
> figure out any tricky technical issues and get on with what you intended to
> do, I think. From being someone who hadn't edited the Wiki before, as far as
> I know, to being a regular contributor, all in a short period of time, just
> goes to show how the process of widening the collaborator base is supposed to
> work.
>
> Indeed, it's quite a contrast to the mindset that (justifiably or not) applied
> to other assets until recently: that people are not to be trusted and where
> motivated people get turned away because a relatively small group of people
> with their own networks of acquaintances happen not to have heard of them.
>
>> My own preference is to let Richard shape things a bit more (right
>> now, his doc is a start) and work with what he lays out. ?No, I don't
>> have the skill set to do a lot of the heavy lifting, but I do have a
>> little skin in the game and have demonstrated some trainability.
>>
>> Apologies if I've spoken out of turn.
>
> I think we should be asking more people like you about these matters, and you
> don't need to apologise for that. :-)
>
> Paul

By the way; +1 to what Paul said - you have no reason to apologize
since technically, you're the topic of discussion. :)

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 21:57:29 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:57:29 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>

Jesse Noller wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:26 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>>> As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in which
>>> the conversation goes like this:
>>>
>>> Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
>>> Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the docs,
>>> they're easy to fix!"
>>> Them: <rummaging>
>>> Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
>>> code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay me*.
>>> Me: Please file a bug at least!
>>> Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
>>> deal with it.
>> Can you please give three or four examples of the changes they would
>> like to see made? Please be as specific as possible.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Martin
>>
> 
> Rather then trying to randomly summarize discussion spanning about two
> years mixed with gut feelings, I took the discussion public:
> 
> http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1285897

Hmm. Maybe you were exaggerating them? If you get *daily* conversations
on how difficult it is to contribute to python.org, you don't have to go
back two years - just this week should provide you with four examples...

In any case, the posting you made has a different focus than the one we
had been discussing (at least, what I thought we were discussing),
namely python.org - *not* python itself. I know there are barriers to
contributing to Python, but I think I understand them much better, plus
I do think people contribute plenty to Python - we get more issues than
we can process.

I had hoped you would be able to provide examples of changes that people
specifically want to make to python.org (and remain still wondering what
precisely you meant by that).

Regards,
Martin

From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 22:14:00 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:14:00 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:57 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
> Jesse Noller wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:26 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>>>> As a piece of anecdotal evidence - I speak to people *daily*, in which
>>>> the conversation goes like this:
>>>>
>>>> Them: "Man, I found a bug in the docs/python lib/site"
>>>> Me: "Please file a bug, better yet, file a patch! Especially the docs,
>>>> they're easy to fix!"
>>>> Them: <rummaging>
>>>> Them: I have to do *what* to change a line in the docs?! Check out
>>>> code? Do a diff? Screw that!! I have other things to do that *pay me*.
>>>> Me: Please file a bug at least!
>>>> Them: Why bother? It's going to take forever for it to get fixed. You
>>>> deal with it.
>>> Can you please give three or four examples of the changes they would
>>> like to see made? Please be as specific as possible.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>
>> Rather then trying to randomly summarize discussion spanning about two
>> years mixed with gut feelings, I took the discussion public:
>>
>> http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1285897
>
> Hmm. Maybe you were exaggerating them? If you get *daily* conversations
> on how difficult it is to contribute to python.org, you don't have to go
> back two years - just this week should provide you with four examples...
>
> In any case, the posting you made has a different focus than the one we
> had been discussing (at least, what I thought we were discussing),
> namely python.org - *not* python itself. I know there are barriers to
> contributing to Python, but I think I understand them much better, plus
> I do think people contribute plenty to Python - we get more issues than
> we can process.
>
> I had hoped you would be able to provide examples of changes that people
> specifically want to make to python.org (and remain still wondering what
> precisely you meant by that).
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>

But the design of the site is being criticized - my point is is that
python.org is the primary gateway to helping people get things done,
and if you look at the feedback, in between "ugh patches" comments,
you'll see more than a few people saying that the website is
confusing, or that it's hard to find information.

Python.org is our primary weapon to getting people the
knowledge/engaged with the project as a hole, both as a user, and
contributor.

How can we fix it? Based off of this little posts feedback, as well as
the other conversations:

1> Make it clear / prominent *where to download*
2> Make it clear / prominent *where to file bugs*
3> Make it clear / prominent how to get involved in the community.
4> Make it clear / prominent how to get packages.
5> Add a link to the bug tracker on the front page - but say "report an issue"
6> Remove the need to login to file a bug.

Little things like that. Reduce the amount of information "bloat" on
the front page and help people get started "at a glance"

The information is buried, it's hard to navigate, the layout is
confusing. Compare python.org to say:

http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
http://www.perl.org/
http://www.djangoproject.com/
http://rubyonrails.org/

Or any number of other language or project sites. The reason that I
chose to make the post soliciting feedback is that I'm strongly biased
against the current site, and the processes for updating it. I'd
rather the people I'm trying to help empower have a voice. While core
development has a barrier - the current site only makes that barrier
much higher, and needlessly so.

jesse

From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Apr 22 22:19:20 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:19:20 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <201004222146.55915.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<BF0E8687-9420-4EAE-BBCB-606464BE38C3@gmail.com>	<x2z426ada671004212038k8a7d09e9zf17d61d2451be14d@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004222146.55915.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4BD0AF48.7090608@holdenweb.com>

Paul Boddie wrote:
> On Thursday 22 April 2010 05:38:46 Carl Trachte wrote:
>> FWIW, I've had excellent luck with content addition on the Wiki, even
>> when I was being kind of incompetent and a pain in Skip and Paul
>> Boddie's butts.
> 
> To be fair, Carl was never really incompetent. :-) Actually, Carl represents 
> very well someone who came in as an outsider and has edited content 
> significantly and successfully.
> 
>> I still add a fair bit of content daily.  It doesn't make the site
>> maintainers' jobs any easier; those people have been very helpful and
>> patient with me.  If the current discourse is constructive, please
>> forgive my interrupting.  Otherwise it might be a good idea to sleep
>> on it, step back, and identify where the best place to start is.
> 
> I don't think anyone has any problem with your edits, Carl. You've managed to 
> figure out any tricky technical issues and get on with what you intended to 
> do, I think. From being someone who hadn't edited the Wiki before, as far as 
> I know, to being a regular contributor, all in a short period of time, just 
> goes to show how the process of widening the collaborator base is supposed to 
> work.
> 
> Indeed, it's quite a contrast to the mindset that (justifiably or not) applied 
> to other assets until recently: that people are not to be trusted and where 
> motivated people get turned away because a relatively small group of people 
> with their own networks of acquaintances happen not to have heard of them.
> 
+1

This makes more work for already busy people, and reduces the likelihood
that "outsiders" will become "insiders" by contributing. Except that I
don't like those terms.

>> My own preference is to let Richard shape things a bit more (right
>> now, his doc is a start) and work with what he lays out.  No, I don't
>> have the skill set to do a lot of the heavy lifting, but I do have a
>> little skin in the game and have demonstrated some trainability.
>>
>> Apologies if I've spoken out of turn.
> 
> I think we should be asking more people like you about these matters, and you 
> don't need to apologise for that. :-)
+1

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From amk at amk.ca  Thu Apr 22 22:26:26 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:26 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100422202626.GA6925@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:14:00PM -0400, Jesse Noller wrote:
> 6> Remove the need to login to file a bug.

7> Throw stuff away.

pydotorg has too much content that is no longer useful.  e.g.  does
anyone use http://www.python.org/community/lists/ to find anything?
Or do they type "python mailing list" into a search engine?  Do people
find their way to http://www.python.org/community/workshops/ or do
they search for 'python conference'?  Does anyone care about the call
for papers of the 1995 workshop, or the python-dev summaries that ended
in 2007?

--amk

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 22:30:45 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:30:45 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>	
	<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>

> 1> Make it clear / prominent *where to download*
> 2> Make it clear / prominent *where to file bugs*
> 3> Make it clear / prominent how to get involved in the community.
> 4> Make it clear / prominent how to get packages.
> 5> Add a link to the bug tracker on the front page - but say "report an issue"

These all seem like very little effort to do, IIUC.

Yet, I think I'm unable to implement them, as I still fail to see the
problem.

If you think you can, just go ahead and do it. Or, tell me how exactly
you would want it look, and I change it for you.

> 6> Remove the need to login to file a bug.

Sorry, can't do that. We would be swamped with spam.

> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/

Hmm. I can't figure out how to report a Ruby bug on that page, either.

> http://www.perl.org/

Neither can I here.

> http://www.djangoproject.com/

Nor here - I specifically searching about an hour for a way to report a
bug to Django, and then I still wasn't sure whether I did it correctly.

> http://rubyonrails.org/

Here I clicked on Code, and it got me to the bug tracker. Reporting a
bug requires to sign in, though.

I still wish you would provide a list of problems that people discussed
with you in the last four days.

Regards,
Martin

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Apr 22 22:31:44 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:31:44 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>		<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>		<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>		<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>		<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD0B230.4020503@python.org>

On 22/04/2010 21:57, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> [snip...]
> I had hoped you would be able to provide examples of changes that people
> specifically want to make to python.org (and remain still wondering what
> precisely you meant by that).
>
>    
You may be asking the impossible there. As an example I've heard *many* 
people criticise the standard library over the last few years and the 
*only* one I can remember specific details of is Ian Bicking's criticism 
over the process (or lack of it) for accepting new modules into the 
standard library. The only reason I remember it is because I take what 
Ian says very seriously. The lack of ability to recall specific 
incidences of people having problems contributing to python.org in no 
way invalidates his comments.

Michael Foord



> Regards,
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 22:37:45 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:37:45 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B230.4020503@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>		<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>		<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>		<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>		<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de> <4BD0B230.4020503@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD0B399.1070104@v.loewis.de>

Michael Foord wrote:
> On 22/04/2010 21:57, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> [snip...]
>> I had hoped you would be able to provide examples of changes that people
>> specifically want to make to python.org (and remain still wondering what
>> precisely you meant by that).
>>
>>    
> You may be asking the impossible there. As an example I've heard *many*
> people criticise the standard library over the last few years and the
> *only* one I can remember specific details of is Ian Bicking's criticism
> over the process (or lack of it) for accepting new modules into the
> standard library.

Please remember that Jesse reported that people complain to him *daily*
(emphasis his). I can understand that you can't remember specific issues
somebody mentioned last month - neither can I. However, as it happens
every day, at least today's issue might still be in Jesse's memory.

> The only reason I remember it is because I take what
> Ian says very seriously. The lack of ability to recall specific
> incidences of people having problems contributing to python.org in no
> way invalidates his comments.

But the comment then doesn't help, either: it's not constructive. If
people complain about specific things, it's not very helpful to know
that they complain. One would also need to know what they complain *about*.

Regards,
Martin

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Apr 22 22:39:29 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:39:29 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B399.1070104@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>		<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>		<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>		<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>		<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de> <4BD0B230.4020503@python.org>
	<4BD0B399.1070104@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD0B401.8090404@python.org>

On 22/04/2010 22:37, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> On 22/04/2010 21:57, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>>      
>>> [snip...]
>>> I had hoped you would be able to provide examples of changes that people
>>> specifically want to make to python.org (and remain still wondering what
>>> precisely you meant by that).
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> You may be asking the impossible there. As an example I've heard *many*
>> people criticise the standard library over the last few years and the
>> *only* one I can remember specific details of is Ian Bicking's criticism
>> over the process (or lack of it) for accepting new modules into the
>> standard library.
>>      
> Please remember that Jesse reported that people complain to him *daily*
> (emphasis his). I can understand that you can't remember specific issues
> somebody mentioned last month - neither can I. However, as it happens
> every day, at least today's issue might still be in Jesse's memory.
>
>    

He *may* have been slightly hyperbolic. Replace daily with "regularly". :-)

>> The only reason I remember it is because I take what
>> Ian says very seriously. The lack of ability to recall specific
>> incidences of people having problems contributing to python.org in no
>> way invalidates his comments.
>>      
> But the comment then doesn't help, either: it's not constructive. If
> people complain about specific things, it's not very helpful to know
> that they complain. One would also need to know what they complain *about*.
>
>    
Well - Jesse has covered some of the topics in his other emails. When 
there is a systemic issue addressing individual points isn't the right 
approach either.

Michael


> Regards,
> Martin
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 22:48:33 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:48:33 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:30 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> 1> Make it clear / prominent *where to download*
>> 2> Make it clear / prominent *where to file bugs*
>> 3> Make it clear / prominent how to get involved in the community.
>> 4> Make it clear / prominent how to get packages.
>> 5> Add a link to the bug tracker on the front page - but say "report an issue"
>
> These all seem like very little effort to do, IIUC.
>
> Yet, I think I'm unable to implement them, as I still fail to see the
> problem.
>
> If you think you can, just go ahead and do it. Or, tell me how exactly
> you would want it look, and I change it for you.

This is fundamentally why I'm trying to encourage this project by Rich
Leland, and by extension, the PSF. I don't *want* a series of
band-aids and quick fixes to pile onto the mound of band-aids we have.
We have a fundamental design problem. We have content which needs
deleted, simplified, we have to find a way of making things *simpler*
and more streamlined. This can't be done one-tiny-piece at a time
without having specific goals in mind.

The problem is systemic.

> I still wish you would provide a list of problems that people discussed
> with you in the last four days.

I just did. Let me be even more specific:

1> Download page is confusing. Make it less so. Why isn't there a
massive "DOWNLOAD HERE" button on the home page?
2> Don't see a clear way of filing a bug and the dev documents are
long/confusing. Giving up. (3 hours ago, coworker)
3> I don't even see "the community" on the page, how do I know how to
communicate with the community?! (4 hours ago, coworker)
4> Where's a simple way of finding out how to contribute?
5> Why isn't there a code example on the front page?

Do I really need to enumerate all of this? It meshes with what I said
in the last email. The reason why I reached out to the public at-large
to get their real, valid feedback is to give us a feel of what people
who are not *us* feel, believe and want.

jesse

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 22:48:37 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:48:37 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B401.8090404@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>		<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>		<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>		<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>		<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de> <4BD0B230.4020503@python.org>
	<4BD0B399.1070104@v.loewis.de> <4BD0B401.8090404@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD0B625.2040602@v.loewis.de>

> Well - Jesse has covered some of the topics in his other emails. When
> there is a systemic issue addressing individual points isn't the right
> approach either.

>From the list of things Jesse reported, I fail to see the systematic
issue though. I understand that other people do have systematic issues,
but I now think that Jesse's issues are entirely unrelated - the only
relationship with those having systematic issues is that everybody's
unhappy. Let me emphasize this:

Everybody is unhappy with the site, but for completely independent reasons.

Regards,
Martin

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Apr 22 22:54:28 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:54:28 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B625.2040602@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<19407.5518.522049.383999@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>		<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>		<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>		<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>		<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD0B230.4020503@python.org>	<4BD0B399.1070104@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD0B401.8090404@python.org> <4BD0B625.2040602@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD0B784.9050600@python.org>

On 22/04/2010 22:48, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> [snip...]
> Let me emphasize this:
> Everybody is unhappy with the site, but for completely independent reasons.
>    

Ha. :-)

Well that's not a good place to be in, let's fix it.

Michael

> Regards,
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From rich at richleland.com  Thu Apr 22 23:00:21 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:00:21 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B784.9050600@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de> <4BD0B230.4020503@python.org>
	<4BD0B399.1070104@v.loewis.de> <4BD0B401.8090404@python.org>
	<4BD0B625.2040602@v.loewis.de> <4BD0B784.9050600@python.org>
Message-ID: <t2v8e236d371004221400nce8f79c3hb7a76c746f61e6c3@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Well that's not a good place to be in, let's fix it.
>

Excellent summary of the thread.  :)
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 23:04:03 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:04:03 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>	
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>

> 1> Download page is confusing. Make it less so. Why isn't there a
> massive "DOWNLOAD HERE" button on the home page?

But there is: Quick Links/Windows installer. Plus there is "download
Python now" in the center of the page.

If you actually want it to be *massive*, I fail to see how you could
provide this in any other way but having a *massive* download button. If
such a button is desirable, I fail to see why it can't be added *now*,
i.e. why we would have to wait many months until the redesigned site
provides such a button.

> 2> Don't see a clear way of filing a bug and the dev documents are
> long/confusing. Giving up. (3 hours ago, coworker)

Please ask him to try again; I added a link in the Core Development menu.

> 3> I don't even see "the community" on the page, how do I know how to
> communicate with the community?! (4 hours ago, coworker)

Can you please find out why the link on the left site called "Community"
was overlooked? I find that *very* puzzling.

> 4> Where's a simple way of finding out how to contribute?

Core Development/Patch Submission.

> 5> Why isn't there a code example on the front page?

Is that also coworker's request? How would that have helped the coworker?

> Do I really need to enumerate all of this?

We are all volunteers, so no. If you want me to understand, then yes.

This list of specific changes already helps to understand (although I'm
still not sure which of these things that somebody - maybe you -
actually wanted to have for himself, and which of them you think people
might want to have, without knowing anybody specifically who said they
want them).

What I also don't understand why these trivial changes have to wait for
a revamp of the entire site.

Regards,
Martin


From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 23:14:19 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:14:19 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 5:04 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> 1> Download page is confusing. Make it less so. Why isn't there a
>> massive "DOWNLOAD HERE" button on the home page?
>
> But there is: Quick Links/Windows installer. Plus there is "download
> Python now" in the center of the page.

It's all text; for a lot of people, the text tends to merge together
in a big jumble when looking at the site; given the amount of text we
have on the front page, I'm not surprised.

> If you actually want it to be *massive*, I fail to see how you could
> provide this in any other way but having a *massive* download button. If
> such a button is desirable, I fail to see why it can't be added *now*,
> i.e. why we would have to wait many months until the redesigned site
> provides such a button.

Because where on earth would we put it, and not have it look garish?
Call it the fact I do have to do some amount of GUI/Web design, but I
don't like just slapping things in. For example, the donate button
looks completely out of place to me.

> Please ask him to try again; I added a link in the Core Development menu.

Thank you for adding a link. Now how do we solve this:

http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/#comment-46111214

> Can you please find out why the link on the left site called "Community"
> was overlooked? I find that *very* puzzling.

Again; information density. There's no indication of "vibrancy" or a
pulse. Just a link, on the left which says "community" with a bunch of
text links. It can be better, both in layout, content and imagery.

>> 4> Where's a simple way of finding out how to contribute?
>
> Core Development/Patch Submission.

In which we insult people:
http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/#comment-46076802

>> 5> Why isn't there a code example on the front page?
>
> Is that also coworker's request? How would that have helped the coworker?

He's given me feedback in the past; ergo, I asked him to restate it.
It's been a long time since he, or any of us were newbies. He was
pointing out that when he started, and hit the python site the first
thing that struck him was a code example.

> We are all volunteers, so no. If you want me to understand, then yes.

I know, and I'm sorry for being short; but I just gave you links to
two massive conversations wherein people who are not me are discussing
this very topic. Most of what I have said here has been echoed,
independently, by people not influenced *by me*. I hoped that that
would be sufficient evidence.

> This list of specific changes already helps to understand (although I'm
> still not sure which of these things that somebody - maybe you -
> actually wanted to have for himself, and which of them you think people
> might want to have, without knowing anybody specifically who said they
> want them).

See above.

> What I also don't understand why these trivial changes have to wait for
> a revamp of the entire site.

I don't consider any of this trivial, given the current design of the site.

Jesse

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Apr 22 23:19:59 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:19:59 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
Message-ID: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>

Hello all,

Suppose "someone" did decide they wanted to help python.org by supplying 
a patch, this is roughly the set of steps they would have to go through:

Go to http://python.org
Click on "Help maintain the website" in the left sidebar: 
http://www.python.org/about/website/
Click on website maintenance: http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/website [1]

The instructions here are on how to checkout the repository from the 
command line with the svn tool. ( Please note that this repository 
contains several hundred megabytes.) This takes a looooooong time. :-( 
By default this gives you a directory called "beta.python.org". You then 
open a file build/README with instructions.

The first step is to install the build system dependencies: mako, 
pyyaml, and docutils.

The next step is running make, which if you are on Windows requires 
first installing Cygwin - another lengthy procedure.

To actually make changes you need to know / learn ReStructured Text, a 
custom markup from pyramid and possibly yaml.

If you don't have checkin rights you'll need to generate a patch 
(assuming you know how) - and then there is nowhere to post it (no issue 
tracker for the website), other than perhaps emailing it to 
webmaster at python.org.

Anyone who doesn't think this constitutes a "high barrier to entry" is 
nuts (tm).

For what it's worth my *memory* (fallible) is of Fred Lundh's through 
the web experiment attracting a great deal of interest and contributions 
- that was for the Python documentation rather than the website though. 
Also for those using it as a counter-example, we do get a lot more 
changes / contributions to the documentation since switching away from 
Latex to reStructured Text (which I am a fan of). There isn't a flood of 
patches from non-contributors - but legally we aren't permitted to take 
large contributions from non core developers without a signed form 
anyway. We do occasional (perhaps even regular) patches on the tracker 
and the core developers all find it much easier to maintain and change. 
Certainly that move was a success.

All the best,

Michael Foord


[1] The first link on the "Help maintain the website" page is to "Report 
problems or suggest an improvement" ( 
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets ). This 
suggests emailing webmaster at python.org (not a bad move) - or making 
changes on this wiki page: http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements 
A wiki page is not a substitute for an issue tracker and that wiki page 
is a mess.

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/

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From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 23:32:33 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:32:33 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>	
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>	
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0C071.2080803@v.loewis.de>

> Because where on earth would we put it, and not have it look garish?
> Call it the fact I do have to do some amount of GUI/Web design, but I
> don't like just slapping things in. For example, the donate button
> looks completely out of place to me.

So you'd rather live with an unusable site for 6 more months, than with
a usable but garish one for the same time.

I personally would put such a button instead of the current link
"download Python now" (which actually goes to the download page, so
people would then still have to make a choice what to download).


> Thank you for adding a link. Now how do we solve this:
> 
> http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/#comment-46111214

I'd like to point out that this has *nothing* to do with the site.
Whether or not people are asked to search for prior bug reports is a
philosophical project question, one that will not be affected by a site
redesign.

I personally would be in favor of dropping these instructions, or
clearly labeling them as optional. However, this is for python-dev to
discuss, not for pydotorg-www.

OTOH, being able to report a bug will people get only a tiny bit toward
solving there problem, which is (unfortunately) what they really want -
they *don't* want to contribute to Python, really. So after a while (a
year or two), they notice that nobody is looking at their bug reports.

>> Can you please find out why the link on the left site called "Community"
>> was overlooked? I find that *very* puzzling.
> 
> Again; information density.

Ok. I guess this can't be solved this year, then (I'm not able and you
are not willing to fix it).

>>> 4> Where's a simple way of finding out how to contribute?
>> Core Development/Patch Submission.
> 
> In which we insult people:
> http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/#comment-46076802

Will this also have to wait for the site revamp?

>>> 5> Why isn't there a code example on the front page?
>> Is that also coworker's request? How would that have helped the coworker?
> 
> He's given me feedback in the past; ergo, I asked him to restate it.
> It's been a long time since he, or any of us were newbies. He was
> pointing out that when he started, and hit the python site the first
> thing that struck him was a code example.

Ah, ok - that sounds like a "cuteness" argument. Interestingly, I
couldn't find it.

I guess this gets the same fate as many other of your proposed changes:
if I would do them, you still wouldn't like the new page, and you won't
tell me how specifically it should look. Let's hope that you like the
revamped site.

Regards,
Martin

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Apr 22 23:45:09 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:45:09 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>

> If you don't have checkin rights you'll need to generate a patch
> (assuming you know how) - and then there is nowhere to post it (no issue
> tracker for the website), other than perhaps emailing it to
> webmaster at python.org.

In that case, you shouldn't be checking out the entire site. Just check
out the directory containing the page you want to edit, and submit a
patch. Forget about downloading tools and building, just submit the
patch (somebody with commit rights will have to verify the patch, anyway).

> Anyone who doesn't think this constitutes a "high barrier to entry" is
> nuts (tm).

I think the process you describe could be significantly simplified for
non-committers with the changes I described above.

I doubt that we would see a flow of patches coming, though.

Regards,
Martin

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Apr 22 23:52:49 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:52:49 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org> <4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD0C531.7090404@python.org>

On 22/04/2010 23:45, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> If you don't have checkin rights you'll need to generate a patch
>> (assuming you know how) - and then there is nowhere to post it (no issue
>> tracker for the website), other than perhaps emailing it to
>> webmaster at python.org.
>>      
> In that case, you shouldn't be checking out the entire site. Just check
> out the directory containing the page you want to edit, and submit a
> patch. Forget about downloading tools and building, just submit the
> patch (somebody with commit rights will have to verify the patch, anyway).
>
>    
Right - we could change the instrcutions to reflect this. This would 
require browsing the repository structure online (would need a link to 
that) and working out which directory you require. If you're following 
the instructions you would follow the procedures I outlined though.

>> Anyone who doesn't think this constitutes a "high barrier to entry" is
>> nuts (tm).
>>      
> I think the process you describe could be significantly simplified for
> non-committers with the changes I described above.
>
> I doubt that we would see a flow of patches coming, though.
>    
Well right, if we still depend on subversion and command line tools and 
posting patches I doubt it would make *much* difference (having a 
simpler procedure and somewhere clear to post patches would probably 
make *some* difference though).

If we had an almost zero barrier to entry (through the web) my guess is 
that we *would* have more contributions (we currently get something 
close to zero contributions and any website maintenance is done by a 
handful of volunteers). A through the web system could conceivably still 
generate patches and post them to a queue for evaluation - allowing 
those who like the current system to maintain their current workflow.

Fredrik Lundh's experiment with through the web contributions to Python 
documentation (if I recall correctly) and the django book's through the 
web annotation system demonstrates that there is a large number of 
people willing to contribute. The fact that orders of magnitude more 
people use the wiki than contribute to python.org (even given that our 
wiki is poorly used) also shows this.

All the best,

Michael


> Regards,
> Martin
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From mfoord at python.org  Thu Apr 22 23:53:10 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:53:10 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org> <4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD0C546.6080904@python.org>

On 22/04/2010 23:45, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> If you don't have checkin rights you'll need to generate a patch
>> (assuming you know how) - and then there is nowhere to post it (no issue
>> tracker for the website), other than perhaps emailing it to
>> webmaster at python.org.
>>      
> In that case, you shouldn't be checking out the entire site. Just check
> out the directory containing the page you want to edit, and submit a
> patch. Forget about downloading tools and building, just submit the
> patch (somebody with commit rights will have to verify the patch, anyway).
>
>    
Right - we could change the instructions to reflect this. This would 
require browsing the repository structure online (would need a link to 
that) and working out which directory you need. If you're following the 
instructions you would follow the procedures I outlined though.

>> Anyone who doesn't think this constitutes a "high barrier to entry" is
>> nuts (tm).
>>      
> I think the process you describe could be significantly simplified for
> non-committers with the changes I described above.
>
> I doubt that we would see a flow of patches coming, though.
>    
Well right, if we still depend on subversion and command line tools and 
posting patches I doubt it would make *much* difference (having a 
simpler procedure and somewhere clear to post patches would probably 
make *some* difference though).

If we had an almost zero barrier to entry (through the web) my guess is 
that we *would* have more contributions (we currently get something 
close to zero contributions and any website maintenance is done by a 
handful of volunteers). A through the web system could conceivably still 
generate patches and post them to a queue for evaluation - allowing 
those who like the current system to maintain their current workflow.

Fredrik Lundh's experiment with through the web contributions to Python 
documentation (if I recall correctly) and the django book's through the 
web annotation system demonstrates that there is a large number of 
people willing to contribute. The fact that orders of magnitude more 
people use the wiki than contribute to python.org (even given that our 
wiki is poorly used) also shows this.

All the best,

Michael


> Regards,
> Martin
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Apr 23 00:10:53 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:10:53 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD0C531.7090404@python.org>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org> <4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD0C531.7090404@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100422221053.GA14622@panix.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>
> If we had an almost zero barrier to entry (through the web) my guess is  
> that we *would* have more contributions (we currently get something  
> close to zero contributions and any website maintenance is done by a  
> handful of volunteers). 

That does not match my perception, depending on how you define
"contribution".  AFAICT, most of the website changes are driven by a
request for change from someone outside the maintenance team.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From mfoord at python.org  Fri Apr 23 00:16:07 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:16:07 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <20100422221053.GA14622@panix.com>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
	<4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>	<4BD0C531.7090404@python.org>
	<20100422221053.GA14622@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0CAA7.2040104@python.org>

On 23/04/2010 00:10, Aahz wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> If we had an almost zero barrier to entry (through the web) my guess is
>> that we *would* have more contributions (we currently get something
>> close to zero contributions and any website maintenance is done by a
>> handful of volunteers).
>>      
> That does not match my perception, depending on how you define
> "contribution".  AFAICT, most of the website changes are driven by a
> request for change from someone outside the maintenance team.
>    
Ok, that's probably true. They are almost always of the form "please add 
a link", or "this link is broken". We almost never get improvements, 
additions or new content.

All the best,

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From mfoord at python.org  Fri Apr 23 00:17:04 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:17:04 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <20100422221053.GA14622@panix.com>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
	<4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>	<4BD0C531.7090404@python.org>
	<20100422221053.GA14622@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0CAE0.90606@python.org>

On 23/04/2010 00:10, Aahz wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> If we had an almost zero barrier to entry (through the web) my guess is
>> that we *would* have more contributions (we currently get something
>> close to zero contributions and any website maintenance is done by a
>> handful of volunteers).
>>      
> That does not match my perception, depending on how you define
> "contribution".  AFAICT, most of the website changes are driven by a
> request for change from someone outside the maintenance team.
>    
Ok, that's probably true. They are almost always of the form "please add 
a link", or "this link is broken". We almost never get improvements, 
additions or new content. The current team doesn't do that *either*, we 
are pretty much in a 'maintenance-only' mode - and as discussed the 
barrier / requirements for getting new contributors are high.

All the best,

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From richard at python.org  Fri Apr 23 00:23:12 2010
From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:23:12 +1000
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <j2h249b6faa1004221523mcdfd993ev935872e1f9da01fd@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:30 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> 6> Remove the need to login to file a bug.
>
> Sorry, can't do that. We would be swamped with spam.

There is a mechanism to avoid spam that might be appropriate here,
though it requires some additional infrastructure:

- "report an issue" on the website is a webmail form, sending to
issues at python.org (which is also available as a direct email contact)
- that address goes to an IMAP folder (gmail?) where spam may be
filtered and immediate issues resolved without involving the tracker
(ie. "I can't figure how to download Python")
- messages appropriate for the tracker are moved to a "tracker" IMAP folder
- Roundup fetches messages from just the "tracker" IMAP folder


     Richard

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Fri Apr 23 00:31:53 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:31:53 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
Message-ID: <201004230031.53955.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Thursday 22 April 2010 23:19:59 Michael Foord wrote:
>
> Anyone who doesn't think this constitutes a "high barrier to entry" is
> nuts (tm).

Nicely put.

> For what it's worth my *memory* (fallible) is of Fred Lundh's through
> the web experiment attracting a great deal of interest and contributions
> - that was for the Python documentation rather than the website though.

He did experiments for both the Web site and for the documentation:

http://effbot.org/zone/pydotorg.htm
http://effbot.org/zone/pyref.htm

[...]

> [1] The first link on the "Help maintain the website" page is to "Report
> problems or suggest an improvement" (
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets ). This
> suggests emailing webmaster at python.org (not a bad move) - or making
> changes on this wiki page: http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements
> A wiki page is not a substitute for an issue tracker and that wiki page
> is a mess.

To be fair, that page has evolved from some random exchange:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements?action=recall&rev=1

If anything, it's just notes about stuff that could be done. That it hasn't 
been cleaned up is mostly due to the "hands off" approach us Wiki editors 
have. I'd actually like to have a clearer mandate for Wiki maintenance and a 
contributor policy, including the issue of proper licensing (even if it's 
just a warning message) - amusing, since my involvement with the Wiki started 
with someone lifting content from my Web site and then, as I recall, telling 
me they'd done it:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebProgramming?action=recall&rev=1

Paul

From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Apr 23 00:27:30 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:27:30 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <j2h249b6faa1004221523mcdfd993ev935872e1f9da01fd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>	
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<j2h249b6faa1004221523mcdfd993ev935872e1f9da01fd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0CD52.1010305@v.loewis.de>

Richard Jones wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:30 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>>> 6> Remove the need to login to file a bug.
>> Sorry, can't do that. We would be swamped with spam.
> 
> There is a mechanism to avoid spam that might be appropriate here,
> though it requires some additional infrastructure:
> 
> - "report an issue" on the website is a webmail form, sending to
> issues at python.org (which is also available as a direct email contact)
> - that address goes to an IMAP folder (gmail?) where spam may be
> filtered and immediate issues resolved without involving the tracker
> (ie. "I can't figure how to download Python")
> - messages appropriate for the tracker are moved to a "tracker" IMAP folder
> - Roundup fetches messages from just the "tracker" IMAP folder

But that would require regular triage, right?

I don't think we can find volunteers for that. We can't even do triage
on the bug reports that we do get.

Regards,
Martin

From mfoord at python.org  Fri Apr 23 00:38:21 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:38:21 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0CD52.1010305@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>	
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<j2h249b6faa1004221523mcdfd993ev935872e1f9da01fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0CD52.1010305@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD0CFDD.4010602@python.org>

On 23/04/2010 00:27, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> Richard Jones wrote:
>    
>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:30 AM, "Martin v. L?wis"<martin at v.loewis.de>  wrote:
>>      
>>>> 6>  Remove the need to login to file a bug.
>>>>          
>>> Sorry, can't do that. We would be swamped with spam.
>>>        
>> There is a mechanism to avoid spam that might be appropriate here,
>> though it requires some additional infrastructure:
>>
>> - "report an issue" on the website is a webmail form, sending to
>> issues at python.org (which is also available as a direct email contact)
>> - that address goes to an IMAP folder (gmail?) where spam may be
>> filtered and immediate issues resolved without involving the tracker
>> (ie. "I can't figure how to download Python")
>> - messages appropriate for the tracker are moved to a "tracker" IMAP folder
>> - Roundup fetches messages from just the "tracker" IMAP folder
>>      
> But that would require regular triage, right?
>
> I don't think we can find volunteers for that. We can't even do triage
> on the bug reports that we do get.
>    
Actually bug report triage is very good now. We have a *few* committed 
volunteers who do it (a relatively recent development - in particular 
Taggnostr, flox, Haypo, Brian Curtin, David R. Murray and Giampaolo 
Rodola - sorry for the IRC handles). They ensure new bug reports are 
closed promptly if possible or assigned to the correct person. I don't 
recall us ever being in better shape from this perspective.

Michael


> Regards,
> Martin
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/

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From paul at boddie.org.uk  Fri Apr 23 00:55:10 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:55:10 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan (python.org and navigation)
In-Reply-To: <n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201004230055.11108.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Thursday 22 April 2010 23:14:19 Jesse Noller wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 5:04 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> 
wrote:
> >
> > But there is: Quick Links/Windows installer. Plus there is "download
> > Python now" in the center of the page.
>
> It's all text; for a lot of people, the text tends to merge together
> in a big jumble when looking at the site; given the amount of text we
> have on the front page, I'm not surprised.

My experience with the python.org toolchain is that it seems to encourage 
monster sidebars because the sidebar menu and "quick links" are prominent 
features of the content format. Take a look at the EuroPython site:

http://www.europython.eu/

Now, I've actually *added* to the "quick links" - that's 
the "Participate!", "Activities", and so on - by separating stuff into 
different categories, but you've still got the menu items sitting above. If 
you click on one of those menu items, you get the python.org experience: big 
submenus, most probably because it's just too awkward to make the rest of the 
page do what you want it to do.

Another thing with ReST is that if that's what you would rather use, you will 
only ever produce content that can be comfortably expressed in that format. 
As I experienced with ReST's predecessor, convenience of notation is a great 
thing, but after a while bundling stuff into nested lists is no substitute 
for a more compelling visual aid such as a table. Only Lisp programmers want 
to see all the content presented in a monotonous, uniform fashion. ;-)

[...]

> > What I also don't understand why these trivial changes have to wait for
> > a revamp of the entire site.
>
> I don't consider any of this trivial, given the current design of the site.

Stuff can be done to mitigate the problems. For EuroPython, I just asked to 
have access, and I've made these relatively minor changes which I hope aren't 
too disruptive. For python.org, and particularly for an outsider, the barrier 
to entry is just too high.

Martin asked before whether anyone ever just jumped in to edit stuff. I can 
offer my experiences on the other side of the fence with regard to the 
Mercurial project. Now, I merely use Mercurial and don't work on extensions 
or the project itself, but it occurred to me that some of the documentation 
could be improved slightly. Since a lot of the "community" documentation is 
on a Wiki, it has merely been a case of creating an account, cutting, 
pasting, rewriting, initially incrementally, and then letting people know 
that a genuine attempt has been made to improve things, and that they can 
always change or revert that work. One of the pages I've changed is here:

http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/PublishingRepositories

Of course it helps to be motivated to do this kind of thing, to go round and 
collect related pages and to decide whether they should be merged with other 
pages, deleted, or changed to fit a new purpose, but if you don't give people 
the chance to do this then they obviously won't do it.

Paul

From georg at python.org  Fri Apr 23 00:57:23 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:57:23 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0CFDD.4010602@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>		<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>		<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>		<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>		<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>		<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>		<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>	<j2h249b6faa1004221523mcdfd993ev935872e1f9da01fd@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD0CD52.1010305@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD0CFDD.4010602@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD0D453.3010706@python.org>

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Am 23.04.2010 00:38, schrieb Michael Foord:
> On 23/04/2010 00:27, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> Richard Jones wrote:
>>   
>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:30 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>>>     
>>>>> 6> Remove the need to login to file a bug.
>>>>>         
>>>> Sorry, can't do that. We would be swamped with spam.
>>>>       
>>> There is a mechanism to avoid spam that might be appropriate here,
>>> though it requires some additional infrastructure:
>>>
>>> - "report an issue" on the website is a webmail form, sending to
>>> issues at python.org (which is also available as a direct email contact)
>>> - that address goes to an IMAP folder (gmail?) where spam may be
>>> filtered and immediate issues resolved without involving the tracker
>>> (ie. "I can't figure how to download Python")
>>> - messages appropriate for the tracker are moved to a "tracker" IMAP folder
>>> - Roundup fetches messages from just the "tracker" IMAP folder
>>>     
>> But that would require regular triage, right?
>>
>> I don't think we can find volunteers for that. We can't even do triage
>> on the bug reports that we do get.
>>   
> Actually bug report triage is very good now. We have a *few* committed
> volunteers who do it (a relatively recent development - in particular
> Taggnostr, flox, Haypo, Brian Curtin, David R. Murray and Giampaolo
> Rodola - sorry for the IRC handles). They ensure new bug reports are
> closed promptly if possible or assigned to the correct person. I don't
> recall us ever being in better shape from this perspective.

I agree.  I think we could at least try allowing anonymous reports for
a testing period.

Georg
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From georg at python.org  Fri Apr 23 01:09:24 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:09:24 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCF246B.6000304@python.org>		<i2r8e236d371004210931y3eddc8dfl6bfd5e4686b3d63d@mail.gmail.com>		<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>		<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>		<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>		<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>		<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>		<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>		<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD0D724.5050002@python.org>

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Am 22.04.2010 22:30, schrieb "Martin v. L?wis":

>> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
> 
> Hmm. I can't figure out how to report a Ruby bug on that page, either.
> 
>> http://www.perl.org/
> 
> Neither can I here.
> 
>> http://www.djangoproject.com/
> 
> Nor here - I specifically searching about an hour for a way to report a
> bug to Django, and then I still wasn't sure whether I did it correctly.
> 
>> http://rubyonrails.org/
> 
> Here I clicked on Code, and it got me to the bug tracker. Reporting a
> bug requires to sign in, though.

I have to say I don't understand the dramatization either.  Often in these
discussions, python.org is portrayed as out of date, old-fashioned, etc.
in the worst of terms.  All of these sites have a different design, of course,
but I can't see how they are vastly superior to python.org.

Of course, python.org lacks the big shiny "download" button.  I can't help
wondering if having a big shiny "download" button is really a requirement,
or if it's just fashionable at the moment.

Take for example perl.org -- their menu items are "Home", "Learn",
"Documentation", "CPAN", "Community", "Get involved" and a bit off
"Download" and "About Perl".  python.org has "About", "News",
"Documentation", "Download", "Community", "Foundation", "Core development",
"Links".  Where's the big difference?

In short, I can't see what the big fuss is about and would be content with a
slight modernization of the design, and maybe a few rearrangements of
menu items.

Georg
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From georg at python.org  Fri Apr 23 01:14:54 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:14:54 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0D86E.2010304@python.org>

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Am 22.04.2010 22:48, schrieb Jesse Noller:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:30 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>>> 1> Make it clear / prominent *where to download*
>>> 2> Make it clear / prominent *where to file bugs*
>>> 3> Make it clear / prominent how to get involved in the community.
>>> 4> Make it clear / prominent how to get packages.
>>> 5> Add a link to the bug tracker on the front page - but say "report an issue"
>>
>> These all seem like very little effort to do, IIUC.
>>
>> Yet, I think I'm unable to implement them, as I still fail to see the
>> problem.
>>
>> If you think you can, just go ahead and do it. Or, tell me how exactly
>> you would want it look, and I change it for you.
> 
> This is fundamentally why I'm trying to encourage this project by Rich
> Leland, and by extension, the PSF. I don't *want* a series of
> band-aids and quick fixes to pile onto the mound of band-aids we have.

Again, this sounds like the current state of affairs is a pile of rubbish.

> We have a fundamental design problem. We have content which needs
> deleted, simplified, we have to find a way of making things *simpler*
> and more streamlined. This can't be done one-tiny-piece at a time
> without having specific goals in mind.

Huh? Why can't you do one piece at a time with the specific goal of
improving this piece in mind?

>> I still wish you would provide a list of problems that people discussed
>> with you in the last four days.
> 
> I just did. Let me be even more specific:
> 
> 1> Download page is confusing. Make it less so. Why isn't there a
> massive "DOWNLOAD HERE" button on the home page?
> 2> Don't see a clear way of filing a bug and the dev documents are
> long/confusing. Giving up. (3 hours ago, coworker)
> 3> I don't even see "the community" on the page, how do I know how to
> communicate with the community?! (4 hours ago, coworker)
> 4> Where's a simple way of finding out how to contribute?
> 5> Why isn't there a code example on the front page?
> 
> Do I really need to enumerate all of this?

Yes.  It is, for example, not immediately obvious to me that we need a
code example on the front page.

> It meshes with what I said in the last email.

At least it's more concrete.

Georg
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From georg at python.org  Fri Apr 23 01:17:34 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:17:34 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD0D90E.5020700@python.org>

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Am 22.04.2010 23:14, schrieb Jesse Noller:

>> Please ask him to try again; I added a link in the Core Development menu.
> 
> Thank you for adding a link. Now how do we solve this:
> 
> http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/#comment-46111214

In response to this, I've now added more info to the "Documenting Python"
index page, and added "Report a bug" links in the sidebar and at the bottom of
every doc page.  They currently  refer to the "How to report bugs" page, which
tells people to mail docs fixes to docs at python.org, and how to use the tracker
otherwise.

I welcome suggestions how to streamline my clumsy English.

At the end of this summer, we'll hopefully have a better system for submitting
and accepting documentation comments and change proposals, with direct editing
in a web form.  Thanks to Google for that.

Georg

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From georg at python.org  Fri Apr 23 01:34:03 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:34:03 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD0CAE0.90606@python.org>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>	<4BD0C365.1040609@v.loewis.de>	<4BD0C531.7090404@python.org>	<20100422221053.GA14622@panix.com>
	<4BD0CAE0.90606@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD0DCEB.3020200@python.org>

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Am 23.04.2010 00:17, schrieb Michael Foord:
> On 23/04/2010 00:10, Aahz wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>>    
>>> If we had an almost zero barrier to entry (through the web) my guess is
>>> that we *would* have more contributions (we currently get something
>>> close to zero contributions and any website maintenance is done by a
>>> handful of volunteers).
>>>      
>> That does not match my perception, depending on how you define
>> "contribution".  AFAICT, most of the website changes are driven by a
>> request for change from someone outside the maintenance team.
>>    
> Ok, that's probably true. They are almost always of the form "please add 
> a link", or "this link is broken". We almost never get improvements, 
> additions or new content. 

But if you want to contribute, you can easily send new content via email,
or even put it on the Wiki and then suggest it be moved.

I'm afraid that many of the additional contributions you get if you make
the barrier height zero are of low quality, because those who make high
quality contributions will also find a way to contribute them.

Georg

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From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 02:14:14 2010
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:14:14 -0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2s7528bcdd1004221714ic9630f4bsee877246a884819@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Jesse Noller <jnoller at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:30 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>
> wrote:
>
[snip]

>
> >> 2> Make it clear / prominent *where to file bugs*
>

[snip]



>  2> Don't see a clear way of filing a bug and the dev documents are
> long/confusing. Giving up. (3 hours ago, coworker)
>

I think additional videos like
http://showmedo.com/videotutorials/video?name=3110000&fromSeriesID=311perhaps
embedded on a python page, as opposed to the showmedo site, would go
a long way to help with this.

Andr?


_______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
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From jnoller at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 02:21:32 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:21:32 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0D90E.5020700@python.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0D90E.5020700@python.org>
Message-ID: <i2w4222a8491004221721z549ffa0dkfa7eb23e23c7df79@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 22.04.2010 23:14, schrieb Jesse Noller:
>
>>> Please ask him to try again; I added a link in the Core Development menu.
>>
>> Thank you for adding a link. Now how do we solve this:
>>
>> http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/#comment-46111214
>
> In response to this, I've now added more info to the "Documenting Python"
> index page, and added "Report a bug" links in the sidebar and at the bottom of
> every doc page. ?They currently ?refer to the "How to report bugs" page, which
> tells people to mail docs fixes to docs at python.org, and how to use the tracker
> otherwise.
>
> I welcome suggestions how to streamline my clumsy English.
>
> At the end of this summer, we'll hopefully have a better system for submitting
> and accepting documentation comments and change proposals, with direct editing
> in a web form. ?Thanks to Google for that.
>
> Georg

Thank you for making those changes.

From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Thu Apr 22 23:12:53 2010
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:12:53 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
Message-ID: <4BD0BBD5.1010307@voidspace.org.uk>

Hello all,

Suppose "someone" did decide they wanted to help python.org by supplying 
a patch, this is roughly the set of steps they would have to go through:

Go to http://python.org
Click on "Help maintain the website" in the left sidebar: 
http://www.python.org/about/website/
Click on website maintenance: http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/website [1]

The instructions here are on how to checkout the repository from the 
command line with the svn tool. ( Please note that this repository 
contains several hundred megabytes.) This takes a looooooong time. :-( 
By default this gives you a directory called "beta.python.org". You then 
open a file build/README with instructions.

The first step is to install the build system dependencies: mako, 
pyyaml, and docutils.

The next step is running make, which if you are on Windows requires 
first installing Cygwin - another lengthy procedure.

To actually make changes you need to know / learn ReStructured Text, a 
custom markup from pyramid and possibly yaml.

If you don't have checkin rights you'll need to generate a patch 
(assuming you know how) - and then there is nowhere to post it (no issue 
tracker for the website), other than perhaps emailing it to 
webmaster at python.org.

Anyone who doesn't think this constitutes a "high barrier to entry" is 
nuts (tm).

For what it's worth my *memory* (fallible) is of Fred Lundh's through 
the web experiment attracting a great deal of interest and contributions 
- that was for the Python documentation rather than the website though. 
Also for those using it as a counter-example, we do get a lot more 
changes / contributions to the documentation since switching away from 
Latex to reStructured Text (which I am a fan of). There isn't a flood of 
patches from non-contributors - but legally we aren't permitted to take 
large contributions from non core developers without a signed form 
anyway. We do occasional (perhaps even regular) patches on the tracker 
and the core developers all find it much easier to maintain and change. 
Certainly that move was a success.

All the best,

Michael Foord


[1] The first link on the "Help maintain the website" page is to "Report 
problems or suggest an improvement" ( 
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets ). This 
suggests emailing webmaster at python.org (not a bad move) - or making 
changes on this wiki page: http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements 
A wiki page is not a substitute for an issue tracker and that wiki page 
is a mess.

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/

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From skip at pobox.com  Fri Apr 23 03:42:29 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:42:29 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
Message-ID: <19408.64261.121893.160309@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Michael> Suppose "someone" did decide they wanted to help python.org by
    Michael> supplying a patch, this is roughly the set of steps they would
    Michael> have to go through:

Why should anyone be expected to do more than report an issue with the
website?  If I notice a problem with Perl's site I don't "submit a patch".
I send a message to webmaster at perl.org which says, in effect, "hey bozos -
your site doesn't work with Chrome - everything's all jumbled up".  Why
should python.org be any different?  The vast majority of Python programmers
never check out the code.  Why should we expect even a miniscule fraction of
the users of the website to check out the content?  In my mind there should
probably be 100 people (maybe 1000) just reporting problems for every person
who tries to check out the website.

    Michael> Go to http://python.org Click on "Help maintain the website" in
    Michael> the left sidebar: http://www.python.org/about/website/ Click on
    Michael> website maintenance: http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/website
    Michael> [1]

Your first bullet item should just be a mailto:webmaster at python.org.
Nothing more.

Skip


From skip at pobox.com  Fri Apr 23 04:51:42 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:51:42 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions?  Spread some swag around...
Message-ID: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>


It seems to me that if you really want inputs in the form of bug reports,
patches, design suggestions, wiki cleanup, etc, you should reward people for
those inputs.  Some thoughts (really just thinking out loud):

    * Every time a person who has never received swag before submits a valid
      bug report they are entered in a weekly drawing for a t-shirt or mug
      with a design/text commemorating the event.  Something like "I found a
      bug in Python".  Limit one shirt/mug per person.  (Once you've won
      something you can't win another.)  The more valid bug reports
      submitted (by whatever means) the more chances you have to win some
      exclusive swag.  Over time there would be a pretty high probability
      that most bug submitters will get rewarded.

    * Same idea, but more exclusive.  Every time someone submits a patch
      which is accepted they are entered in a similar drawing (but maybe one
      held less often, monthly perhaps?).  Something like "I fixed a bug in
      Python".  Same limit applies.

    * Maybe have a bug submitters and fixers BOF at PyCon as further
      recognition.

I would suggest excluding python-dev subscribers from receiving these
prizes.  The idea is to grow the number of contributors.

These should be prizes you can't get elsewhere.  Can't buy 'em.  Won't see
PyCon staff members wearing such shirts unless they won them in legit
fashion.  Even Guido won't have one.

Skip


From ctrachte at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:56:37 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:56:37 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <19408.64261.121893.160309@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
	<19408.64261.121893.160309@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <k2u426ada671004221956yc5f81d7ci2ddab86994c55307@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/22/10, skip at pobox.com <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>     Michael> Suppose "someone" did decide they wanted to help python.org by
>     Michael> supplying a patch, this is roughly the set of steps they would
>     Michael> have to go through:
>
> Why should anyone be expected to do more than report an issue with the
> website?  If I notice a problem with Perl's site I don't "submit a patch".
> I send a message to webmaster at perl.org which says, in effect, "hey bozos -
> your site doesn't work with Chrome - everything's all jumbled up".  Why
> should python.org be any different?  The vast majority of Python programmers
> never check out the code.  Why should we expect even a miniscule fraction of
> the users of the website to check out the content?  In my mind there should
> probably be 100 people (maybe 1000) just reporting problems for every person
> who tries to check out the website.
>
>     Michael> Go to http://python.org Click on "Help maintain the website" in
>     Michael> the left sidebar: http://www.python.org/about/website/ Click on
>     Michael> website maintenance: http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/website
>     Michael> [1]
>
> Your first bullet item should just be a mailto:webmaster at python.org.
> Nothing more.
>
> Skip
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

I may have misunderstood the intent of some of this web redesign and
ease of contribution effort (I think they are germane to this thread).
 I interpreted it as trying not only to get people to the community
through the website, but drawing them into the whole development and
maintenance process so that the core group doesn't die out or burn
out.

If Steve Holden or Michael are out there, they may be able to clarify this.

Carl T.

From ctrachte at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 05:02:22 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:02:22 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <o2j426ada671004222002r6479531fwc3cf63fa401546c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/22/10, skip at pobox.com <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that if you really want inputs in the form of bug reports,
> patches, design suggestions, wiki cleanup, etc, you should reward people for
> those inputs.  Some thoughts (really just thinking out loud):
>
>     * Every time a person who has never received swag before submits a valid
>       bug report they are entered in a weekly drawing for a t-shirt or mug
>       with a design/text commemorating the event.  Something like "I found a
>       bug in Python".  Limit one shirt/mug per person.  (Once you've won
>       something you can't win another.)  The more valid bug reports
>       submitted (by whatever means) the more chances you have to win some
>       exclusive swag.  Over time there would be a pretty high probability
>       that most bug submitters will get rewarded.
>
>     * Same idea, but more exclusive.  Every time someone submits a patch
>       which is accepted they are entered in a similar drawing (but maybe one
>       held less often, monthly perhaps?).  Something like "I fixed a bug in
>       Python".  Same limit applies.
>
>     * Maybe have a bug submitters and fixers BOF at PyCon as further
>       recognition.
>
> I would suggest excluding python-dev subscribers from receiving these
> prizes.  The idea is to grow the number of contributors.
>
> These should be prizes you can't get elsewhere.  Can't buy 'em.  Won't see
> PyCon staff members wearing such shirts unless they won them in legit
> fashion.  Even Guido won't have one.
>
> Skip
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
This sounds like fun.  I'd be happy with just a stock Python sticker
or bumper sticker.  Although it would involve a fair bit of work
(mailing and what not), I do think it would give the Python brand more
exposure and make people feel good about contributing.

My 2 cents.

Carl T.

From steve at holdenweb.com  Fri Apr 23 05:25:15 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:25:15 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BD1131B.5060708@holdenweb.com>

skip at pobox.com wrote:
> It seems to me that if you really want inputs in the form of bug reports,
> patches, design suggestions, wiki cleanup, etc, you should reward people for
> those inputs.  Some thoughts (really just thinking out loud):
> 
>     * Every time a person who has never received swag before submits a valid
>       bug report they are entered in a weekly drawing for a t-shirt or mug
>       with a design/text commemorating the event.  Something like "I found a
>       bug in Python".  Limit one shirt/mug per person.  (Once you've won
>       something you can't win another.)  The more valid bug reports
>       submitted (by whatever means) the more chances you have to win some
>       exclusive swag.  Over time there would be a pretty high probability
>       that most bug submitters will get rewarded.
> 
>     * Same idea, but more exclusive.  Every time someone submits a patch
>       which is accepted they are entered in a similar drawing (but maybe one
>       held less often, monthly perhaps?).  Something like "I fixed a bug in
>       Python".  Same limit applies.
> 
>     * Maybe have a bug submitters and fixers BOF at PyCon as further
>       recognition.
> 
> I would suggest excluding python-dev subscribers from receiving these
> prizes.  The idea is to grow the number of contributors.
> 
> These should be prizes you can't get elsewhere.  Can't buy 'em.  Won't see
> PyCon staff members wearing such shirts unless they won them in legit
> fashion.  Even Guido won't have one.
> 
That's an excellent idea. Though I think Guido should have one if he so
much as suggests he might want one.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From jnoller at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 05:38:24 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:38:24 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19408.63713.12904.945744@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<19408.63713.12904.945744@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <v2y4222a8491004222038nceef61fen779ec03c9391872c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 9:33 PM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> ? ?Jesse> Thank you for adding a link. Now how do we solve this:
>
> ? ?Jesse> http://jessenoller.com/2010/04/22/why-arent-you-contributing-to-python/#comment-46111214
>
> As I indicated earlier in this thread, it seems to me the best way to report
> problems about the website is to send email to webmaster at python.org. ?It can
> be triaged there and sent to the right place. ?Perhaps every page should
> contain a mailto: link with the subject parameter being the page's URL.
>
> ? ?5> Why isn't there a code example on the front page?
> ? ?>>
> ? ?>> Is that also coworker's request? How would that have helped the
> ? ?>> coworker?
>
> ? ?Jesse> He's given me feedback in the past; ergo, I asked him to restate
> ? ?Jesse> it. ?It's been a long time since he, or any of us were
> ? ?Jesse> newbies. He was pointing out that when he started, and hit the
> ? ?Jesse> python site the first thing that struck him was a code example.
>
> There is limited real estate on the front page which no amount of redesign
> is going to make less limited. ?Perhaps it could feature a link to a page
> full of "Look how easy it is to do X with Python" examples. ?Given the
> current existing content I don't see where you'd actually put a snippet of
> code though.
>
> ? ?Jesse> I know, and I'm sorry for being short; but I just gave you links
> ? ?Jesse> to two massive conversations wherein people who are not me are
> ? ?Jesse> discussing this very topic. Most of what I have said here has
> ? ?Jesse> been echoed, independently, by people not influenced *by me*. I
> ? ?Jesse> hoped that that would be sufficient evidence.
>
> I think you hyperbolize a bit with the phrase "massive conversations" but
> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. ?That fellow's eight-bullet response
> would be solved if there was a "Report a problem with this page" link which
> linked to a mailto: URL.

I don't think I hyperbolize when the post has been live since 10:44am
and as of 11:19pm 5,016 unique hits, and:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/burio/why_arent_you_contributing_to_python/
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1285897

As well as the 70 or so comments, not including twitter or private
emails. Seemingly, it's a sore subject for many people. Not only do
they feel that "getting changes into core" is difficult, but many have
cited poor layout, lack of information, difficulty with logins, etc.

> Or is he referring to problems submitting a bug in Python itself? ?It's not
> clear. ?If what he wants is to report a bug with Python itself, then add a
> "Report a problem with Python" link as well which either leads to
> http://bugs.python.org/ or to mailto:report at bugs.python.org.

And it could also be solved with a web form which looked nice, had
some nice simple instructions which told the user "Submit a python
problem" with some basic guidelines, rather than just popping up an
email window. Little things like this help with user experience, small
enhancements that look nice, are clean and simple.

Not everyone likes the command line, emacs, or vim (yay vim). Not
everyone is comfortable with big svn checkouts, or complex bug
tracking interfaces. So, no, I don't think an 8 bullet point comment
can be boiled down to "just slap an email link here and there". Sure,
that's a great start, but it should not be the final solution.

> I don't know how much time you spend perusing new bug reports, but there are
> some pretty basic "bug reports" such as this old chestnut:
>
> ? ?Python's floating point is wrong. ?See:
>
> ? ?>>> .1
> ? ?0.10000000000000001
>
> which pops up every few months. ?I take that to mean that there are plenty
> of people who have extremely limited facility with the language who manage
> to figure out how to submit a bug report. ?Then there is always Google:
>
> ? ?http://lmgtfy.com/?q=python+bug
>
> If that's not enough bug reports, just wait a few hours and watch Victor
> Stinner's reports come flowing in. ?Realistically, we don't have too few bug
> reports. ?We have too few people processing the ones which are submitted.
> You seem to have cherry-picked the responses to your blog post a bit. ?I
> kind of got the impression most of the respondents hadn't considered
> contributing (in any way) to Python's development and maintenance. ?"It
> works well enough for me. ?I do my job and move on." ?For those people no
> amount of website redesign is going to change them.

I'm perfectly familiar with the bug reports that come in. And yes,
plenty of people who seem to be able to "figure it out" - that doesn't
mean the process is easy, nor that it is empowering or low friction to
the users. My passion is for lowering the bar, simplicity, making it
rewarding, etc.

As for bugs; I don't just want bug reports. I want patches; I want
suggestions on new features. I want improved documentation and most of
all I want people to feel involved and invested in something which
they might not otherwise be. Programming languages aren't sexy to a
lot of people, but I think people can also have a greater attachment
to Python than as just another tool in a toolbox.

As for cherry picking - I can say the same to you. In no way did
"most" of the respondents say "works for me I don't care". Many of
them (most of them, even) pointed out that they perceive getting
involved as time-consuming, bureaucratic and high learning curve. The
website, and the tools and content involved can all go a long way to
help changing this perception problem. Small changes to wording,
organizing content more consistently and clearly, making important
things prominent instead of just jumbled in with the rest of the
information can really help.

It's not as if I'm suggesting we all go out back and euthanize
ourselves for horrible failures. I'm trying to advocate that there are
things we can do drastically better, and that we should. Rich, and
others are working on a proposal to help redesign, reorganize and
modernize the site, the tools, content, etc. Especially given the
feedback I feel I managed to garner in a short amount of time, I don't
think our response should be "works for me"!

jesse

From jnoller at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 05:40:22 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:40:22 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <w2u4222a8491004222040g9061faf0j4e52db1daf920595@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 10:51 PM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that if you really want inputs in the form of bug reports,
> patches, design suggestions, wiki cleanup, etc, you should reward people for
> those inputs. ?Some thoughts (really just thinking out loud):
>
> ? ?* Every time a person who has never received swag before submits a valid
> ? ? ?bug report they are entered in a weekly drawing for a t-shirt or mug
> ? ? ?with a design/text commemorating the event. ?Something like "I found a
> ? ? ?bug in Python". ?Limit one shirt/mug per person. ?(Once you've won
> ? ? ?something you can't win another.) ?The more valid bug reports
> ? ? ?submitted (by whatever means) the more chances you have to win some
> ? ? ?exclusive swag. ?Over time there would be a pretty high probability
> ? ? ?that most bug submitters will get rewarded.
>
> ? ?* Same idea, but more exclusive. ?Every time someone submits a patch
> ? ? ?which is accepted they are entered in a similar drawing (but maybe one
> ? ? ?held less often, monthly perhaps?). ?Something like "I fixed a bug in
> ? ? ?Python". ?Same limit applies.
>
> ? ?* Maybe have a bug submitters and fixers BOF at PyCon as further
> ? ? ?recognition.
>
> I would suggest excluding python-dev subscribers from receiving these
> prizes. ?The idea is to grow the number of contributors.
>
> These should be prizes you can't get elsewhere. ?Can't buy 'em. ?Won't see
> PyCon staff members wearing such shirts unless they won them in legit
> fashion. ?Even Guido won't have one.
>

I think this, plus the concept of helping sponsoring and coordinating
Python Core/Port to Py3k sprints all over would be awesome. Although,
this means I might have to teach my kid how to write bug reports so I
can get some of the super swag.

jesse

From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Apr 23 07:55:33 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 07:55:33 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <k2u426ada671004221956yc5f81d7ci2ddab86994c55307@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>	<19408.64261.121893.160309@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<k2u426ada671004221956yc5f81d7ci2ddab86994c55307@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD13655.1030109@v.loewis.de>

> I may have misunderstood the intent of some of this web redesign and
> ease of contribution effort (I think they are germane to this thread).
>  I interpreted it as trying not only to get people to the community
> through the website, but drawing them into the whole development and
> maintenance process so that the core group doesn't die out or burn
> out.

If that's the objective, then it would mean that we are trying to solve
a problem that doesn't exist. We constantly add new committers for
Python, these are people who not only report bugs and submit patches,
but actually also review them.

Regards,
Martin

From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 08:08:07 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:08:07 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <y2jd34314101004222308k2aa3a852p7f57986d26ae28e5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 AM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that if you really want inputs in the form of bug reports,
> patches, design suggestions, wiki cleanup, etc, you should reward people for
> those inputs. ?Some thoughts (really just thinking out loud):

How do you see counting these inputs? I want to see my stats.
Very-very. =) Please, please, can you count them? :P
-- 
anatoly t.




> ? ?* Every time a person who has never received swag before submits a valid
> ? ? ?bug report they are entered in a weekly drawing for a t-shirt or mug
> ? ? ?with a design/text commemorating the event. ?Something like "I found a
> ? ? ?bug in Python". ?Limit one shirt/mug per person. ?(Once you've won
> ? ? ?something you can't win another.) ?The more valid bug reports
> ? ? ?submitted (by whatever means) the more chances you have to win some
> ? ? ?exclusive swag. ?Over time there would be a pretty high probability
> ? ? ?that most bug submitters will get rewarded.
>
> ? ?* Same idea, but more exclusive. ?Every time someone submits a patch
> ? ? ?which is accepted they are entered in a similar drawing (but maybe one
> ? ? ?held less often, monthly perhaps?). ?Something like "I fixed a bug in
> ? ? ?Python". ?Same limit applies.
>
> ? ?* Maybe have a bug submitters and fixers BOF at PyCon as further
> ? ? ?recognition.
>
> I would suggest excluding python-dev subscribers from receiving these
> prizes. ?The idea is to grow the number of contributors.
>
> These should be prizes you can't get elsewhere. ?Can't buy 'em. ?Won't see
> PyCon staff members wearing such shirts unless they won them in legit
> fashion. ?Even Guido won't have one.
>
> Skip
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From mfoord at python.org  Fri Apr 23 10:00:10 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:00:10 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <k2u426ada671004221956yc5f81d7ci2ddab86994c55307@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>	
	<19408.64261.121893.160309@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<k2u426ada671004221956yc5f81d7ci2ddab86994c55307@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD1538A.3000000@python.org>

On 23/04/2010 04:56, Carl Trachte wrote:
> On 4/22/10, skip at pobox.com<skip at pobox.com>  wrote:
>    
>>      Michael>  Suppose "someone" did decide they wanted to help python.org by
>>      Michael>  supplying a patch, this is roughly the set of steps they would
>>      Michael>  have to go through:
>>
>> Why should anyone be expected to do more than report an issue with the
>> website?  If I notice a problem with Perl's site I don't "submit a patch".
>> I send a message to webmaster at perl.org which says, in effect, "hey bozos -
>> your site doesn't work with Chrome - everything's all jumbled up".  Why
>> should python.org be any different?  The vast majority of Python programmers
>> never check out the code.  Why should we expect even a miniscule fraction of
>> the users of the website to check out the content?  In my mind there should
>> probably be 100 people (maybe 1000) just reporting problems for every person
>> who tries to check out the website.
>>
>>      Michael>  Go to http://python.org Click on "Help maintain the website" in
>>      Michael>  the left sidebar: http://www.python.org/about/website/ Click on
>>      Michael>  website maintenance: http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/website
>>      Michael>  [1]
>>
>> Your first bullet item should just be a mailto:webmaster at python.org.
>> Nothing more.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>
>>      
> I may have misunderstood the intent of some of this web redesign and
> ease of contribution effort (I think they are germane to this thread).
>   I interpreted it as trying not only to get people to the community
> through the website, but drawing them into the whole development and
> maintenance process so that the core group doesn't die out or burn
> out.
>    

Yes, some of us would like to see a larger community with more 
contributors to Python, its documentation and the website. It seems this 
is a goal not shared by everyone.

All the best,

Michael Foord

> If Steve Holden or Michael are out there, they may be able to clarify this.
>
> Carl T.
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Apr 23 15:06:40 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 06:06:40 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Current python.org contributor process
In-Reply-To: <4BD13655.1030109@v.loewis.de>
References: <4BD0BD7F.8030806@python.org>
	<19408.64261.121893.160309@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<k2u426ada671004221956yc5f81d7ci2ddab86994c55307@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD13655.1030109@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <20100423130639.GA14453@panix.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>attribution lost:
>>
>> I may have misunderstood the intent of some of this web redesign and
>> ease of contribution effort (I think they are germane to this thread).
>>  I interpreted it as trying not only to get people to the community
>> through the website, but drawing them into the whole development and
>> maintenance process so that the core group doesn't die out or burn
>> out.
> 
> If that's the objective, then it would mean that we are trying to solve
> a problem that doesn't exist. We constantly add new committers for
> Python, these are people who not only report bugs and submit patches,
> but actually also review them.

Speaking as the person who started the (currently dormant) diversity
list, I think both of you are correct.  That is, Python does reasonably
well in terms of keeping itself alive, but I believe that the Python
community would be better for increasing the sources of newcomers.
Decreasing barriers to entry has been shown to do that -- but although I
think some pain in changing the way we work is reasonable, we don't want
to remove the efficiencies of our current toolchains and drive away our
existing contributors.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From skip at pobox.com  Fri Apr 23 15:29:49 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:29:49 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <19409.41165.620228.288993@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    4> Where's a simple way of finding out how to contribute?

    Martin> Core Development/Patch Submission.

I think we need a concrete definition of what "contribute" means.  Here are
some common interpretations I come up with off the top of my head:

    Language/Library-related
    ------------------------

    * file a bug report against Python itself
    * fix a bug in Python by submitting a patch
    * review existing bug reports and/or patches
    * be an "early adopter" - download and exercise pre-release versions

    Website-related
    ---------------
    * file a bug report about the website (ignore the details of "file a bug
      report for now")
    * monitor wiki pages, deleting spam, correcting errors
    * reorganize all or part of the main website or wiki

    User-related
    ------------
    * participate in mailing lists, especially those related to the
      development of the language and its libraries (python-dev,
      python-ideas, distutils-sig, etc) or those whose aim it is to help
      other users (esp, python-help and tutor)

    Administrative
    --------------
    * help administer the website (keep software updated and hardware
      current) and/or Python-related mailing lists (including being a
      postmaster, webmaster, pydotorg denizen, or a roto-rooter)

    Monetary
    --------
    * Donate
    * Convince your boss that your company should donate (money, services,
      hardware, human resources)

I haven't included anything related to the PSF, largely because I never
participated in it myself, so don't have a clue what all goes on behind
those doors, but I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities for people to
contribute there as well.

Much of this discussion seems to have focused on problems "contributing" to
the design and content of the website: how difficult it is to check out the
static files from Subversion, edit the content, build a local copy of the
site, and finally check the changes back in to make them live.  I happen to
believe that sort of contribution pales in comparison with contributions to
the language and libraries and all the other activities which fall under the
overall umbrella of "contribution".  Personally, I'm happy if the same dozen
or so people are the only people who turn the cranks to actually light up
the website(s).  In the grand scheme of things that's a trivial part of the
entire process as it relates to contributing to Python.

Long story short, when you refer to contribution in any of these
discussions, please be specific.

Skip

From doug.hellmann at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 15:42:02 2010
From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:42:02 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59046432-100A-4143-B3F0-07C7A5F02EC9@gmail.com>


On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:26 PM, Richard Leland wrote:

> Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a  
> master list of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the  
> technology behind them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could  
> take a look and help me fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
>
> - python.org (static files w/build system)
> - docs.python.org (sphinx documentation)
> - wiki.python.org (moinmoin)
> - bugs.python.org (roundup)
> - planet.python.org
> - svn.python.org
> - pypi.python.org
> - pycon.org
> - pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)

http://pycon.blogspot.com/ is a blog for announcements from PyCon(s).

http://pycon.blip.tv/ has the PyCon videos.  They also show up at http://python.mirocommunity.org/ 
, but I don't know how that happens.

Doug


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From skip at pobox.com  Fri Apr 23 15:49:01 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 08:49:01 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <4BD1131B.5060708@holdenweb.com>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BD1131B.5060708@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <19409.42317.356009.412655@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Steve> That's an excellent idea. Though I think Guido should have one if
    Steve> he so much as suggests he might want one.

Well, yeah, if he asks for one. ;-)

Skip

From rich at richleland.com  Fri Apr 23 15:56:21 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:56:21 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <59046432-100A-4143-B3F0-07C7A5F02EC9@gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
	<59046432-100A-4143-B3F0-07C7A5F02EC9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s2h8e236d371004230656reeb5d8b9l975a451176426e8e@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all of this info! Added to the research on project plan.

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:26 PM, Richard Leland wrote:
>
> Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master
> list of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology
> behind them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and
> help me fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
>
> - python.org (static files w/build system)
> - docs.python.org (sphinx documentation)
> - wiki.python.org (moinmoin)
> - bugs.python.org (roundup)
> - planet.python.org
> - svn.python.org
> - pypi.python.org
> - pycon.org
> - pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)
>
>
> http://pycon.blogspot.com/ is a blog for announcements from PyCon(s).
>
> http://pycon.blip.tv/ has the PyCon videos.  They also show up at
> http://python.mirocommunity.org/, but I don't know how that happens.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
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From jnoller at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 16:03:34 2010
From: jnoller at gmail.com (Jesse Noller)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:03:34 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19409.42497.526788.692618@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<19408.63713.12904.945744@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<v2y4222a8491004222038nceef61fen779ec03c9391872c@mail.gmail.com>
	<19409.42497.526788.692618@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <s2r4222a8491004230703x77c878d1p5867af6770457f03@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 9:52 AM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> ? ?Jesse> I don't think I hyperbolize when the post has been live since
> ? ?Jesse> 10:44am and as of 11:19pm 5,016 unique hits, and:
>
> ? ?Jesse> http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/burio/why_arent_you_contributing_to_python/
> ? ?Jesse> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1285897
>
> ? ?Jesse> As well as the 70 or so comments, not including twitter or
> ? ?Jesse> private emails. Seemingly, it's a sore subject for many
> ? ?Jesse> people. Not only do they feel that "getting changes into core" is
> ? ?Jesse> difficult, but many have cited poor layout, lack of information,
> ? ?Jesse> difficulty with logins, etc.
>
> OTOH, it might just be that your blog is generally popular. ;-)
>

Ha. Not so much. This pretty much dwarfs all other traffic I've seen
in years. Frankly, I'm stunned.

From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Apr 23 20:58:46 2010
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:58:46 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 9:51 PM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that if you really want inputs in the form of bug reports,
> patches, design suggestions, wiki cleanup, etc, you should reward people for
> those inputs. ?Some thoughts (really just thinking out loud):
>
> ? ?* Every time a person who has never received swag before submits a valid
> ? ? ?bug report they are entered in a weekly drawing for a t-shirt or mug
> ? ? ?with a design/text commemorating the event. ?Something like "I found a
> ? ? ?bug in Python". ?Limit one shirt/mug per person. ?(Once you've won
> ? ? ?something you can't win another.) ?The more valid bug reports
> ? ? ?submitted (by whatever means) the more chances you have to win some
> ? ? ?exclusive swag. ?Over time there would be a pretty high probability
> ? ? ?that most bug submitters will get rewarded.
>
> ? ?* Same idea, but more exclusive. ?Every time someone submits a patch
> ? ? ?which is accepted they are entered in a similar drawing (but maybe one
> ? ? ?held less often, monthly perhaps?). ?Something like "I fixed a bug in
> ? ? ?Python". ?Same limit applies.
>
> ? ?* Maybe have a bug submitters and fixers BOF at PyCon as further
> ? ? ?recognition.
>
> I would suggest excluding python-dev subscribers from receiving these
> prizes. ?The idea is to grow the number of contributors.
>
> These should be prizes you can't get elsewhere. ?Can't buy 'em. ?Won't see
> PyCon staff members wearing such shirts unless they won them in legit
> fashion. ?Even Guido won't have one.
>
> Skip

What is the current population of bug reporters in the last year?  My
guess is under 500.  trying to get  a grip on what this could cost.

I bet it is worth it to eliminate the drawing and give them to
everyone, and also relax the rules for getting something.  As much as
that might devalue the prestige, I think it will be a net positive.
The snag may be financing, but if we allow a logo to get slapped on
there, problem solved.

How about some tiers:

"I submitted a bug report."  - anyone who wants a shirt can submit
some garbage, fill out a form, and they get a shirt.   other than
having to weed out the complete garbage bug reports from real bug
reports, who cares if people walk around advertising they submitted?
If someone can figure out how and actually submit a bug report, we
should want the world know.    Anyone wearing the shirt is going to
attract attention, and someone is going to ask, and the response will
be "it was easy!"   That alone is worth something.

For those who actually contribute:

"My bug report was accepted!"

"My Patch was Applied" and "I have commit privs."

"I have access to the Python source code."

-- 
Carl K

From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 21:15:42 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 22:15:42 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2xd34314101004231215o77162348o2845e809f2cb8fd4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>
> For those who actually contribute:
>
> "My bug report was accepted!"
>
> "My Patch was Applied" and "I have commit privs."
>
> "I have access to the Python source code."

"This t-shirt has access to the Python source code."

"I've got it accepted, finally."

"I have a signal to noize ratio!"

"I've read the PEP till the end."

-- 
anatoly t.

From es at ethanschoonover.com  Fri Apr 23 21:47:19 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:47:19 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Introductions
Message-ID: <x2wd72a15511004231247r449f26e0gddef82790f98c82f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello pydotorg,

I find myself here courtesy of Jesse's well-timed blog post. I'd like
to give you a sense of my current orientation to the larger Python
community and my background in order to contextualize my comments and
any ongoing contribution I might be able to make to this process.

I have a dual technology and marketing (yes, I said the 'm' word)
background. I've filled both roles for over a decade, including having
running web production and marketing operations for Fortune 500
clients in a multinational ad agency for much of my career.

Despite having run large marketing and web production operations, I
live in vim, my UI of choice is a command line and I eat ones and
zeros for breakfast.

I am also a complete Python noob, but I almost wasn't. That's why I'm
here, posting to this list. I want to share my perspective as a recent
'convert' to Python, talk about the barriers to selection I faced in
relation to the website and perhaps share some of my thoughts on
improving things.

In terms of self education, a key factor in my selection of Python was
the "State of the Python Community" video that Steve Holden gave at
PyCon 2009. This got me over the hump of my initial "wow what a
terrible website" reaction and made me realize that its current state
wasn't indicative of the language or community itself.

I've begun to review Richard's site redevelopment proposal plan and I
think he's got an absolutely solid foundation there.

I'll have further questions and comments, but for now I just wanted to
wade gently into these waters and say hello.

Best regards to one and all,
Ethan

Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com

From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Apr 23 21:50:02 2010
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:50:02 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <59046432-100A-4143-B3F0-07C7A5F02EC9@gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
	<59046432-100A-4143-B3F0-07C7A5F02EC9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2g549053141004231250w9a9d594i7b1ce738d0ebd516@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:26 PM, Richard Leland wrote:
>
> Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master list
> of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology behind
> them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and help me
> fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
> - python.org (static files w/build system)
> - docs.python.org (sphinx documentation)
> - wiki.python.org (moinmoin)
> - bugs.python.org (roundup)
> - planet.python.org
> - svn.python.org
> - pypi.python.org
> - pycon.org
> - pyfound.blogspot.com (blogger)
>
> http://pycon.blogspot.com/ is a blog for announcements from PyCon(s).
> http://pycon.blip.tv/ has the PyCon videos. ?They also show up
> at?http://python.mirocommunity.org/, but I don't know how that happens.


python.mirocommunity.org is the effort of Will Kahn-Greene and a few
other maintainers.  The site snarfs up rss feeds from various sources,
videos get reviewed for appropriateness and tagging by a handful of
moderators.   I am one of them, but so far have not done anything.  I
wouldn't be surprised if Will has done 100% of the work.  I know he
has indexed some of the PyCon lighting talks, which is fantastic.

-- 
Carl K

From steve at holdenweb.com  Fri Apr 23 22:10:43 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:10:43 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Introductions
In-Reply-To: <x2wd72a15511004231247r449f26e0gddef82790f98c82f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <x2wd72a15511004231247r449f26e0gddef82790f98c82f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD1FEC3.5040709@holdenweb.com>

Ethan Schoonover wrote:
> Hello pydotorg,
> 
> I find myself here courtesy of Jesse's well-timed blog post. I'd like
> to give you a sense of my current orientation to the larger Python
> community and my background in order to contextualize my comments and
> any ongoing contribution I might be able to make to this process.
> 
> I have a dual technology and marketing (yes, I said the 'm' word)
> background. I've filled both roles for over a decade, including having
> running web production and marketing operations for Fortune 500
> clients in a multinational ad agency for much of my career.
> 
> Despite having run large marketing and web production operations, I
> live in vim, my UI of choice is a command line and I eat ones and
> zeros for breakfast.
> 
> I am also a complete Python noob, but I almost wasn't. That's why I'm
> here, posting to this list. I want to share my perspective as a recent
> 'convert' to Python, talk about the barriers to selection I faced in
> relation to the website and perhaps share some of my thoughts on
> improving things.
> 
> In terms of self education, a key factor in my selection of Python was
> the "State of the Python Community" video that Steve Holden gave at
> PyCon 2009. This got me over the hump of my initial "wow what a
> terrible website" reaction and made me realize that its current state
> wasn't indicative of the language or community itself.
> 
> I've begun to review Richard's site redevelopment proposal plan and I
> think he's got an absolutely solid foundation there.
> 
> I'll have further questions and comments, but for now I just wanted to
> wade gently into these waters and say hello.
> 
Thanks for taking the time to write, Ethan. It's terrific to know these
talks do some good. It doesn't always feel that way at the time ...

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Apr 23 22:16:37 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:16:37 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosystem
In-Reply-To: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100423201636.GA10993@panix.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, Richard Leland wrote:
>
> Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master list
> of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology behind
> them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and help me
> fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
> 
> - python.org (static files w/build system)

Martin already mentioned mail.python.org, but I wanted to highlight it
because it has an HTTP server for Mailman, so it contains all the mailing
list archives and going to http://mail.python.org/ shows the public
mailing lists.

Althought it's not really part of python.org and is mostly dormant,
starship.python.net should be examined as part of your researches.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Apr 23 22:42:29 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:42:29 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] www.python.org: types of changes
Message-ID: <20100423204229.GA12868@panix.com>

Rich's project goals at
http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/goals.html
includes the following:

Agility

   Making modifications to the content of the site currently requires a
   build of static files and a level of technical expertise. The site
   content and appearance need to be easier to update.

My suggestion is that we should be careful about specifying exactly which
types of updates we're discussing.  I would classify changes this way:

Organization

    The way pages are connected to each other, and the way a visitor
    perceives sections of the site

Content

    The actual text of the site and downloadable documents

Layout

    Location of content elements on a page (which should have consistency
    across all pages)

Appearance

    Text formatting and images used to convey organizational cues

Obviously, these are all interrelated, but often one is focusing on only
one or two aspects of updating the site at any particular time.  Also, I
generally prioritize these changes in the order that I've listed them
(with the caveat that making organizational changes is sufficiently
difficult and controversial that it rarely happens).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From rich at richleland.com  Fri Apr 23 22:37:55 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:37:55 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] follow along, comments welcome!
Message-ID: <x2i8e236d371004231337r8ca6f740ta99280d18f864f35@mail.gmail.com>

I've added disqus comments to the project plan docs - you can now comment
and subscribe to pages via email/rss:

http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/

<http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/>- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Apr 23 22:46:03 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 22:46:03 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD2070B.9060701@v.loewis.de>

> What is the current population of bug reporters in the last year?  My
> guess is under 500.  trying to get  a grip on what this could cost.

roundup_tracker=> select count(*) from (select distinct _creator from
_issue where _creation > '2009-04-24 00:00') t;
 count
-------
  1227

Regards,
Martin

From fdrake at acm.org  Fri Apr 23 22:53:25 2010
From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred Drake)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:53:25 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <x2xd34314101004231215o77162348o2845e809f2cb8fd4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org> 
	<p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<x2xd34314101004231215o77162348o2845e809f2cb8fd4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <w2v9cee7ab81004231353oeab6170eq4d676a3df46ce972@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:15 PM, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> "I've read the PEP till the end."

"I wrote the PEP for that."


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.    <fdrake at gmail.com>
"Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller

From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 23:08:57 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:08:57 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <w2v9cee7ab81004231353oeab6170eq4d676a3df46ce972@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2xd34314101004231215o77162348o2845e809f2cb8fd4@mail.gmail.com>
	<w2v9cee7ab81004231353oeab6170eq4d676a3df46ce972@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <n2ud34314101004231408j118618oe61520a6c747a04d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Fred Drake <fdrake at acm.org> wrote:
>> "I've read the PEP till the end."
>
> "I wrote the PEP for that."

"Got PEP?" http://www.zazzle.com/got_pep_tshirt-235066670080601415

-- 
anatoly t.

From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Apr 23 23:55:48 2010
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:55:48 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] You want submissions? Spread some swag around...
In-Reply-To: <4BD2070B.9060701@v.loewis.de>
References: <19409.2878.659154.721238@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<p2i549053141004231158kf04bc06fv57fec30139ef9ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD2070B.9060701@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <z2n549053141004231455j7af01c59rbeba19bed16ab3c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:46 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
>> What is the current population of bug reporters in the last year? ?My
>> guess is under 500. ?trying to get ?a grip on what this could cost.
>
> roundup_tracker=> select count(*) from (select distinct _creator from
> _issue where _creation > '2009-04-24 00:00') t;
> ?count
> -------
> ?1227

cool.

at $9/shirt +shipping and handling, that's enough to be careful what
is promised.  I suppose it would be fine to say "next X bug reports
get a shirt."  and once they are out, figure out if we should do it
again.


-- 
Carl K

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 14:53:35 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:53:35 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Process improvement to reduce bug triaging errors
Message-ID: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello again, I haven't caught up with the latest threads, but here is
one more thing for ecosystem consideration,

I have an issue reported two years ago [1]. It was rejected and now I
see commit that does what I proposed then. The status is still
rejected. How do I feel about it? Positive, because it is finally done
(even partially). Negative, because I've waited for 2 years and didn't
receive any feedback finally. I don't blame Martin or Georg, because
they do much work for the Python and have more chances to realize the
human right for an error here. Thing to consider for process
improvement is how to reduce such errors? Most people are more polite
than me to complain, so while I sticking here, they may be bounced
away long ago.

[1] http://bugs.python.org/issue2823

-- 
anatoly t.

From georg at python.org  Sat Apr 24 15:35:37 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:35:37 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Process improvement to reduce bug triaging errors
In-Reply-To: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD2F3A9.6090807@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 24.04.2010 14:53, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> Hello again, I haven't caught up with the latest threads, but here is
> one more thing for ecosystem consideration,
> 
> I have an issue reported two years ago [1]. It was rejected and now I
> see commit that does what I proposed then.

Not exactly; see the issue comment.

> The status is still rejected.

OK, I've changed the status.

> How do I feel about it? Positive, because it is finally done
> (even partially). Negative, because I've waited for 2 years and didn't
> receive any feedback finally.

I don't understand the "finally".  Do you mean, right now when I made the
commit?  I hope you don't expect me to remember every issue I closed in the
last few years; there are hundreds of them.

> I don't blame Martin or Georg, because they do much work for the Python
> and have more chances to realize the human right for an error here.
> Thing to consider for process improvement is how to reduce such errors?

I object to the decision being called an error.  Are those arguing against
adding a feature in Python "in error", when it is finally decided to be
included?  At the time, we didn't see its use and decided not to add it.
Now, by some of the comments on Jesse's blog, I was convinced that having
these links is a good thing, even if we don't have the system for a direct
submission of change suggestions.  What really convinced me that one
commenter listed his complete experience while trying to get an issue fixed,
so I could learn what we can do better and what a first step that can
be implemented quickly can be.

cheers,
Georg
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=DZjJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From carl at personnelware.com  Sat Apr 24 16:30:05 2010
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 09:30:05 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Process improvement to reduce bug triaging errors
In-Reply-To: <4BD2F3A9.6090807@python.org>
References: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD2F3A9.6090807@python.org>
Message-ID: <v2m549053141004240730m209004f3w921ee2d217cd29c2@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 24.04.2010 14:53, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
>> Hello again, I haven't caught up with the latest threads, but here is
>> one more thing for ecosystem consideration,
>>
>> I have an issue reported two years ago [1]. It was rejected and now I
>> see commit that does what I proposed then.
>
> Not exactly; see the issue comment.
>
>> The status is still rejected.
>
> OK, I've changed the status.
>
>> How do I feel about it? Positive, because it is finally done
>> (even partially). Negative, because I've waited for 2 years and didn't
>> receive any feedback finally.
>
> I don't understand the "finally". ?Do you mean, right now when I made the
> commit? ?I hope you don't expect me to remember every issue I closed in the
> last few years; there are hundreds of them.
>
>> I don't blame Martin or Georg, because they do much work for the Python
>> and have more chances to realize the human right for an error here.
>> Thing to consider for process improvement is how to reduce such errors?
>
> I object to the decision being called an error. ?Are those arguing against
> adding a feature in Python "in error", when it is finally decided to be
> included? ?At the time, we didn't see its use and decided not to add it.
> Now, by some of the comments on Jesse's blog, I was convinced that having
> these links is a good thing, even if we don't have the system for a direct
> submission of change suggestions. ?What really convinced me that one
> commenter listed his complete experience while trying to get an issue fixed,
> so I could learn what we can do better and what a first step that can
> be implemented quickly can be.
>

Regardless of if one considers it an error, there is always room for
improvement of the discover/report/triage/resolve process.

Maybe this process in discussion is about as good as it can be given
the time people have to contribute,

But, it doesn't hurt to discuss it as long as the discussion doesn't
become counterproductive.

-- 
Carl K

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Apr 24 16:56:32 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:56:32 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Process improvement to reduce bug triaging errors
In-Reply-To: <v2m549053141004240730m209004f3w921ee2d217cd29c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD2F3A9.6090807@python.org>
	<v2m549053141004240730m209004f3w921ee2d217cd29c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD306A0.6060406@v.loewis.de>

> But, it doesn't hurt to discuss it as long as the discussion doesn't
> become counterproductive.

Actually, I think this very discussion *does* hurt. Anatoly's fussy
insistance that the original triage be called "error", his insistance
that the status be changed from "Rejected" to "fixed", and his
insistance of some other bug report being listed as superceder is indeed
counter-productive, IMO.

Regards,
Martin

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Apr 24 16:58:51 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 07:58:51 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Process improvement to reduce bug triaging	errors
In-Reply-To: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100424145851.GA18203@panix.com>

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> 
> I have an issue reported two years ago [1]. It was rejected and now I
> see commit that does what I proposed then. The status is still
> rejected. How do I feel about it? Positive, because it is finally done
> (even partially). Negative, because I've waited for 2 years and didn't
> receive any feedback finally. I don't blame Martin or Georg, because
> they do much work for the Python and have more chances to realize the
> human right for an error here. Thing to consider for process
> improvement is how to reduce such errors? Most people are more polite
> than me to complain, so while I sticking here, they may be bounced
> away long ago.

This is not particularly relevant to pydotorg-www.  Why are you bringing
it up here?  If we start sprawling the discussion to all parts of the
Python development process and community, we won't have enough focus to
get work done.  I suggest that you move comments like this to
python-dev.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sat Apr 24 17:43:31 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:43:31 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Refocus the discussion (was Re: Process improvement
	to reduce bug =?iso-8859-1?q?triaging=09errors?=)
In-Reply-To: <20100424145851.GA18203@panix.com>
References: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100424145851.GA18203@panix.com>
Message-ID: <201004241743.31703.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Saturday 24 April 2010 16:58:51 Aahz wrote:
>

[Python bug/patch workflow]

> This is not particularly relevant to pydotorg-www.  Why are you bringing
> it up here?  If we start sprawling the discussion to all parts of the
> Python development process and community, we won't have enough focus to
> get work done.  I suggest that you move comments like this to
> python-dev.

Although Skip has neatly summarised the different contribution activities, we 
do risk sliding off into discussions of things like the contribution workflow 
around the Python software itself, rather than focusing only on Web site 
matters. Certainly, there should be a discussion about whether people can 
easily contribute to the CPython software distribution (from bug reporting, 
reviewing, patch submissions, PEP authorship, all the way up to having commit 
privileges), but on this list we should focus more on how well any kind of 
workflow of this nature is exposed via the Web site, not whether such a 
workflow is fair, accessible or adequate. (The Web site contribution workflow 
is another matter, but let us not mix it all up with its CPython software 
distribution counterpart.)

I've updated the site improvements page to make this clear (and to tidy it up 
a bit, anyway):

http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements

Again, I'm still more interested in seeing some of the incremental 
improvements carried out than getting bogged down in a discussion of some 
ambitious Web site transformation project.

Paul

From georg at python.org  Sat Apr 24 18:21:36 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:21:36 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Process improvement to reduce bug triaging	errors
In-Reply-To: <20100424145851.GA18203@panix.com>
References: <y2pd34314101004240553s2c4d31a7k35be4e3fb59ee5e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100424145851.GA18203@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BD31A90.3030907@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 24.04.2010 16:58, schrieb Aahz:
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> 
>> I have an issue reported two years ago [1]. It was rejected and now I
>> see commit that does what I proposed then. The status is still
>> rejected. How do I feel about it? Positive, because it is finally done
>> (even partially). Negative, because I've waited for 2 years and didn't
>> receive any feedback finally. I don't blame Martin or Georg, because
>> they do much work for the Python and have more chances to realize the
>> human right for an error here. Thing to consider for process
>> improvement is how to reduce such errors? Most people are more polite
>> than me to complain, so while I sticking here, they may be bounced
>> away long ago.
> 
> This is not particularly relevant to pydotorg-www.  Why are you bringing
> it up here?  If we start sprawling the discussion to all parts of the
> Python development process and community, we won't have enough focus to
> get work done.  I suggest that you move comments like this to
> python-dev.

Or tracker-discuss, the list I was under the impression this post was on,
because I had read the wrong line in the email list entry.  Sorry for that.

Georg
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From ctrachte at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 20:07:06 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:07:06 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
Message-ID: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>

I am writing to request the addition of the attached jpg with a link
to the Python Wiki's Languages page to the python.org homepage.

This had been discussed about 6 months ago by myself and Georg Brandl,
with input from Aahz and David Goodger.  (Georg has been good enough
to find the map again for me.)  The attached royalty free symbol is
what we settled on.

Thanks for taking this request into consideration.

Carl T.
Las Cruces, New Mexico
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 20:10:06 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 21:10:06 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <r2qd34314101004241110y9a168f1ev942a8859f490c45f@mail.gmail.com>

Excuse me, but what is it?
-- 
anatoly t.



On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 9:07 PM, Carl Trachte <ctrachte at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am writing to request the addition of the attached jpg with a link
> to the Python Wiki's Languages page to the python.org homepage.
>
> This had been discussed about 6 months ago by myself and Georg Brandl,
> with input from Aahz and David Goodger. ?(Georg has been good enough
> to find the map again for me.) ?The attached royalty free symbol is
> what we settled on.
>
> Thanks for taking this request into consideration.
>
> Carl T.
> Las Cruces, New Mexico
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>

From steve at holdenweb.com  Sat Apr 24 20:27:20 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 14:27:20 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <r2qd34314101004241110y9a168f1ev942a8859f490c45f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<r2qd34314101004241110y9a168f1ev942a8859f490c45f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD33808.9060907@holdenweb.com>

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> Excuse me, but what is it?

I should have thought the name "worldmap.jpg" would have given you a clue.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From mfoord at python.org  Sat Apr 24 23:50:05 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:50:05 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan
In-Reply-To: <19409.41165.620228.288993@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100421185616.D58681FFD24@kimball.webabinitio.net>
	<4BCF7008.4050003@python.org>
	<19407.41353.387140.545047@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<z2y4222a8491004211846ta837091fr93c766516c79fab1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BCFDDFE.6000103@v.loewis.de>
	<o2i4222a8491004221245g69122d93q231221560db973f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0AA29.4000702@v.loewis.de>
	<i2s4222a8491004221314v6c273ac0w37b7c8448e4873b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B1F5.7040903@v.loewis.de>
	<n2v4222a8491004221348pb1cfcb0cq55312760b168448c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<19409.41165.620228.288993@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BD3678D.9040903@python.org>

On 23/04/2010 14:29, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>      4>  Where's a simple way of finding out how to contribute?
>
>      Martin>  Core Development/Patch Submission.
>
> I think we need a concrete definition of what "contribute" means.  Here are
> some common interpretations I come up with off the top of my head:
>
>      Language/Library-related
>      ------------------------
>
>      * file a bug report against Python itself
>      * fix a bug in Python by submitting a patch
>      * review existing bug reports and/or patches
>      * be an "early adopter" - download and exercise pre-release versions
>    

Running a buildbot.

>      Website-related
>      ---------------
>      * file a bug report about the website (ignore the details of "file a bug
>        report for now")
>      * monitor wiki pages, deleting spam, correcting errors
>      * reorganize all or part of the main website or wiki
>    

Including adding new content.

>      User-related
>      ------------
>      * participate in mailing lists, especially those related to the
>        development of the language and its libraries (python-dev,
>        python-ideas, distutils-sig, etc) or those whose aim it is to help
>        other users (esp, python-help and tutor)
>    

Run or be involved in user groups or conferences.

Promote Python by writing articles, blog entries or even books.

>      Administrative
>      --------------
>      * help administer the website (keep software updated and hardware
>        current) and/or Python-related mailing lists (including being a
>        postmaster, webmaster, pydotorg denizen, or a roto-rooter)
>
>      Monetary
>      --------
>      * Donate
>      * Convince your boss that your company should donate (money, services,
>        hardware, human resources)
>
> I haven't included anything related to the PSF, largely because I never
> participated in it myself, so don't have a clue what all goes on behind
> those doors, but I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities for people to
> contribute there as well.
>
> Much of this discussion seems to have focused on problems "contributing" to
> the design and content of the website: how difficult it is to check out the
> static files from Subversion, edit the content, build a local copy of the
> site, and finally check the changes back in to make them live.  I happen to
> believe that sort of contribution pales in comparison with contributions to
> the language and libraries and all the other activities which fall under the
> overall umbrella of "contribution".

I'd put them all on equal footings. They're all important in their way 
and avenues for people with different tastes and skill sets to participate.

> Personally, I'm happy if the same dozen
> or so people are the only people who turn the cranks to actually light up
> the website(s).  In the grand scheme of things that's a trivial part of the
> entire process as it relates to contributing to Python.
>
> Long story short, when you refer to contribution in any of these
> discussions, please be specific.
>    

Well, when people ask how they can contribute it would be nice to be 
able to point them to a page with all these possibilities - including 
links to more information on all of them... (rather than asking them to 
be more specific ;-)

Nice list by the way.

Michael

> Skip
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From amk at amk.ca  Sun Apr 25 02:50:41 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 20:50:41 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 12:07:06PM -0600, Carl Trachte wrote:
> I am writing to request the addition of the attached jpg with a link
> to the Python Wiki's Languages page to the python.org homepage.

It's easily done, but I'm not sure where to put the graphic.

Here's a draft that adds it in two places, to both the left and right
sidebars.

http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html

The left-side problem: that portion of the page template is from the
standard site template, so adding the graphic there will put it on
every single page.

The right-side problem: that side is already very full; where do we
want to put the graphic?  I've put it below the house ad but above the
'so-and-so uses Python'.  If it goes below the 'Using Python for...' box,
the graphic will be hard to notice.  

Proposal: maybe we should just drop the 'Using Python for' box
completely?  Or maybe it's OK to put the world map on every single
page, on the left-hand side?

--amk

From ctrachte at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 03:28:58 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:28:58 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/24/10, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 12:07:06PM -0600, Carl Trachte wrote:
>> I am writing to request the addition of the attached jpg with a link
>> to the Python Wiki's Languages page to the python.org homepage.
>
> It's easily done, but I'm not sure where to put the graphic.
>
> Here's a draft that adds it in two places, to both the left and right
> sidebars.
>
> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html
>
> The left-side problem: that portion of the page template is from the
> standard site template, so adding the graphic there will put it on
> every single page.
>
> The right-side problem: that side is already very full; where do we
> want to put the graphic?  I've put it below the house ad but above the
> 'so-and-so uses Python'.  If it goes below the 'Using Python for...' box,
> the graphic will be hard to notice.
>
> Proposal: maybe we should just drop the 'Using Python for' box
> completely?  Or maybe it's OK to put the world map on every single
> page, on the left-hand side?
>
> --amk
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

Andrew,

Thanks a ton.

My preference is for right side where you put it with minimal text
(Non-English or Non-English Python Resources).

My rational is that
1) whoever put Summer of Code and Uses Python there felt they were
important enough to have the top spots.
2) having a link from anywhere on python.org directly to the Languages
page on the wiki is more than what is there now.
3) having it on every page IMO is overkill.

Thanks for taking this input into consideration.

Carl T.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 09:29:33 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:29:33 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Carl Trachte <ctrachte at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I am writing to request the addition of the attached jpg with a link
>>> to the Python Wiki's Languages page to the python.org homepage.

I thought you'd like to put developers/contributors as well as
organizations and donors on this map.

This pixelated jpeg is of very bad quality - it reminds me about those
ancient pages with animated gifs and HTML 2.0 markup. Is there a
hi-res source for it to make a .png?

>> It's easily done, but I'm not sure where to put the graphic.
>>
>> Here's a draft that adds it in two places, to both the left and right
>> sidebars.
>>
>> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html
>>
>> The left-side problem: that portion of the page template is from the
>> standard site template, so adding the graphic there will put it on
>> every single page.

But it looks nice there.

>> The right-side problem: that side is already very full; where do we
>> want to put the graphic? ?I've put it below the house ad but above the
>> 'so-and-so uses Python'. ?If it goes below the 'Using Python for...' box,
>> the graphic will be hard to notice.

It looks out of place between boxes. It also makes front page even
more skewed to the right. Right side is already long enough
http://python.org/

>> Proposal: maybe we should just drop the 'Using Python for' box
>> completely? ?Or maybe it's OK to put the world map on every single
>> page, on the left-hand side?

I'd make "uses Python.." and "What they are saying..." mutually
exclusive showing only one at a time.

> My preference is for right side where you put it with minimal text
> (Non-English or Non-English Python Resources).

"About Python in Other Languages"
"Python in Other Languages"
Detect browser language and show localized "Python in English".

> My rational is that
> 1) whoever put Summer of Code and Uses Python there felt they were
> important enough to have the top spots.

I.e. there won't be pixelated jpegs above any of there. =)

> 2) having a link from anywhere on python.org directly to the Languages
> page on the wiki is more than what is there now.

I.e. we need at least one i18n link in the site.

> 3) having it on every page IMO is overkill.

People will have the motivation to transform it into something better later.
Later this can be transformed into localized blog newsfeed (when we
get site logins for storing preferences).

-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 09:48:02 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:48:02 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] www.python.org: types of changes
In-Reply-To: <20100423204229.GA12868@panix.com>
References: <20100423204229.GA12868@panix.com>
Message-ID: <t2jd34314101004250048rb2b6c3c9vedbe547bf03b0fc@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Rich's project goals at
> http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/goals.html
> includes the following:
>
> Agility
>
> ? Making modifications to the content of the site currently requires a
> ? build of static files and a level of technical expertise. The site
> ? content and appearance need to be easier to update.
>
> My suggestion is that we should be careful about specifying exactly which
> types of updates we're discussing. ?I would classify changes this way:

This classification doesn't seem as the right way to answer the
question "Why the site suxx?". If you'll look at Richard's "Agility"
goal - it answers that.

> Organization
>
> ? ?The way pages are connected to each other, and the way a visitor
> ? ?perceives sections of the site
>
> Content
>
> ? ?The actual text of the site and downloadable documents
>
> Layout
>
> ? ?Location of content elements on a page (which should have consistency
> ? ?across all pages)
>
> Appearance
>
> ? ?Text formatting and images used to convey organizational cues

I believe the encoding of the last sentence should be "Simple English". =)

> Obviously, these are all interrelated, but often one is focusing on only
> one or two aspects of updating the site at any particular time. ?Also, I
> generally prioritize these changes in the order that I've listed them
> (with the caveat that making organizational changes is sufficiently
> difficult and controversial that it rarely happens).

"The site suxx, because it is hard to reach everyone's agreement on
site design and layout changes, and nobody is willing to waste time to
work on proposals."
Is that it?

-- 
anatoly t.

From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 09:56:07 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:56:07 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 09:29, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Carl Trachte <ctrachte at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I am writing to request the addition of the attached jpg with a link
>>>> to the Python Wiki's Languages page to the python.org homepage.
> 
> I thought you'd like to put developers/contributors as well as
> organizations and donors on this map.

No.  It's just a symbol for "go international".

> This pixelated jpeg is of very bad quality - it reminds me about those
> ancient pages with animated gifs and HTML 2.0 markup. Is there a
> hi-res source for it to make a .png?

Sorry, I don't see any "pixelation" or bad quality.  The image is nicely
antialiased.  Except of course if you blow it up to different sizes.  But
that's not necessary here.

>>> It's easily done, but I'm not sure where to put the graphic.
>>>
>>> Here's a draft that adds it in two places, to both the left and right
>>> sidebars.
>>>
>>> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html
>>>
>>> The left-side problem: that portion of the page template is from the
>>> standard site template, so adding the graphic there will put it on
>>> every single page.
> 
> But it looks nice there.

Agreed, I would put it on the left.  It should be made a lighter shade of
grey though; maybe like the "Quick links" link's foreground color.

>>> The right-side problem: that side is already very full; where do we
>>> want to put the graphic?  I've put it below the house ad but above the
>>> 'so-and-so uses Python'.  If it goes below the 'Using Python for...' box,
>>> the graphic will be hard to notice.
> 
> It looks out of place between boxes. It also makes front page even
> more skewed to the right. Right side is already long enough
> http://python.org/

Agreed.

>>> Proposal: maybe we should just drop the 'Using Python for' box
>>> completely?  Or maybe it's OK to put the world map on every single
>>> page, on the left-hand side?
> 
> I'd make "uses Python.." and "What they are saying..." mutually
> exclusive showing only one at a time.

Alternately, we could make use of the large center space, and put the
news and the "Using for..." side-by-side.

>> 2) having a link from anywhere on python.org directly to the Languages
>> page on the wiki is more than what is there now.
> 
> I.e. we need at least one i18n link in the site.
> 
>> 3) having it on every page IMO is overkill.

But the "Help fund Python" link is on every page as well.

Georg
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 10:11:11 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:11:11 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Mailing list dead pile and private lists (Was:
	python.org ecosystem)
Message-ID: <o2id34314101004250111z53fb5800u56f704a392fa55f1@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>
> Martin already mentioned mail.python.org, but I wanted to highlight it
> because it has an HTTP server for Mailman, so it contains all the mailing
> list archives and going to http://mail.python.org/ shows the public
> mailing lists.

The important part of it is that private archives are not listed.
For example docs at python.org (or is it doc at python.org?) is almost
impossible for volunteer to discover that it is possible to
participate. There is also Doc-SIG, but it is not very active.

So, I propose to review current SIGs ML, private ML and merge/remove
or archive dead ML.

The question to whatever to make docs/doc@ public is for Georg. I
can't insist on things I am not actively participate in.

-- 
anatoly t.





> Althought it's not really part of python.org and is mostly dormant,
> starship.python.net should be examined as part of your researches.
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) ? ? ? ? ? <*> ? ? ? ? http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
> --Bill Harlan
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 11:53:29 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:53:29 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
Message-ID: <s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>
>> This pixelated jpeg is of very bad quality - it reminds me about those
>> ancient pages with animated gifs and HTML 2.0 markup. Is there a
>> hi-res source for it to make a .png?
>
> Sorry, I don't see any "pixelation" or bad quality. ?The image is nicely
> antialiased. ?Except of course if you blow it up to different sizes. ?But
> that's not necessary here.

It is automatically dithered due to poor jpeg compression - not
antialiased in any way. If your screen resolution is too high or
monitor is not calibrated, then look at attached images - one is 4x
scaled without any antialising filters, the other is 4x with automatic
contrast.

>>>> Proposal: maybe we should just drop the 'Using Python for' box
>>>> completely? ?Or maybe it's OK to put the world map on every single
>>>> page, on the left-hand side?
>>
>> I'd make "uses Python.." and "What they are saying..." mutually
>> exclusive showing only one at a time.
>
> Alternately, we could make use of the large center space, and put the
> news and the "Using for..." side-by-side.

That will be ugly. Even news agencies does't do columns nowadays
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ And many people still visit python.org from
Android devices and portable devices without wide screens.

P.S. Is there any web stats for pydotorg like browser/country/etc?

-- 
anatoly t.
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From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 12:08:00 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:08:00 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [docs] Mailing list dead pile and private lists
 (Was:	 python.org ecosystem)
In-Reply-To: <o2id34314101004250111z53fb5800u56f704a392fa55f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2id34314101004250111z53fb5800u56f704a392fa55f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD41480.7040000@python.org>

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Am 25.04.2010 10:11, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Martin already mentioned mail.python.org, but I wanted to highlight it
>> because it has an HTTP server for Mailman, so it contains all the mailing
>> list archives and going to http://mail.python.org/ shows the public
>> mailing lists.
> 
> The important part of it is that private archives are not listed.
> For example docs at python.org (or is it doc at python.org?) is almost
> impossible for volunteer to discover that it is possible to
> participate. There is also Doc-SIG, but it is not very active.
> 
> So, I propose to review current SIGs ML, private ML and merge/remove
> or archive dead ML.
> 
> The question to whatever to make docs/doc@ public is for Georg. I
> can't insist on things I am not actively participate in.

I've already decided to make the docs archives public.  However, the
previous archives have to be removed first; like for pydotorg, I do
not want them to be publicly available when the senders thought
otherwise.  As soon as the postmasters have archived the archive :)
the new archives will be public.

As for doc-SIG and docs at python.org: the former is for the discussion
of the "how" of our documentation -- how to write it, how to build it,
what features it should have.  The latter is for day-to-day handling
of issues and reports/comments people send to docs at python.org.  Think
of it like the difference between python-dev and the tracker/checkins
lists.

Also, if you want to post more to docs at python.org, I would recommend
to subscribe, otherwise I'll have to moderate all your posts.

Georg
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From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 12:11:38 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:11:38 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	
	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD4155A.9040009@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 11:53, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>
>>> This pixelated jpeg is of very bad quality - it reminds me about those
>>> ancient pages with animated gifs and HTML 2.0 markup. Is there a
>>> hi-res source for it to make a .png?
>>
>> Sorry, I don't see any "pixelation" or bad quality.  The image is nicely
>> antialiased.  Except of course if you blow it up to different sizes.  But
>> that's not necessary here.
> 
> It is automatically dithered due to poor jpeg compression - not
> antialiased in any way. If your screen resolution is too high or
> monitor is not calibrated, then look at attached images - one is 4x
> scaled without any antialising filters, the other is 4x with automatic
> contrast.

Of course there are losses due to JPEG compression.  Maybe my monitor's
contrast really is too bad for me to see it.

The point is that this sidetrack leads nowhere; the important issue is
where to place the symbol and on which pages.  When that is decided, you
or another volunteer are of course free to produce an image of better
quality.

Georg
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 12:48:01 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:48:01 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan (python.org and navigation)
In-Reply-To: <201004230055.11108.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004230055.11108.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <m2od34314101004250348z3ea8029dr18ee501cfdc8c02d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thursday 22 April 2010 23:14:19 Jesse Noller wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 5:04 PM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>
> wrote:
>> >
>> > But there is: Quick Links/Windows installer. Plus there is "download
>> > Python now" in the center of the page.
>>
>> It's all text; for a lot of people, the text tends to merge together
>> in a big jumble when looking at the site; given the amount of text we
>> have on the front page, I'm not surprised.

Good point. The front page to me is rather clear, but the amount of
text on other pages tends to grow, outdate, but hardly shrink. I
remember first time I was planning to send patch to Python I was
reading various docs for several hours and then have troubles seeking
the address of viewvc interface.

> My experience with the python.org toolchain is that it seems to encourage
> monster sidebars because the sidebar menu and "quick links" are prominent
> features of the content format.

It may happen that Python has too much information to be present on
one site. And if it is so, then the whole site can be split into
several big parts - each with its own color scheme, but on the same
domain.

Right now I can see that there is PSF/corporative/supporters, user
tutorials/documentation, core development information and
conferences/irc/wiki/fun stuff. I can't see how they could be
completely separated, however. Esp. wiki - the only alive thing free
for users.

> Another thing with ReST is that if that's what you would rather use, you will
> only ever produce content that can be comfortably expressed in that format.

Docbook is much much much worse. =)

> As I experienced with ReST's predecessor, convenience of notation is a great
> thing, but after a while bundling stuff into nested lists is no substitute
> for a more compelling visual aid such as a table. Only Lisp programmers want
> to see all the content presented in a monotonous, uniform fashion. ;-)

Really? A tabless pydotorg? That's a real surprise. Now I see. Is
there any page describing current limitations (and optionally
advantages) of current pydotorg engine? Is there a description of
pre-pre engine?

I'd really like to see some wikipedia-like summary on the history of
www.python.org linked somewhere from
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsite   It seems the "new-build"
is not that new anymore and old Redesign pages like may confuse people
and lead into wrong direction.  So the knowledge about previous
"mistakes" or implementation would help to design better system.

>> > What I also don't understand why these trivial changes have to wait for
>> > a revamp of the entire site.
>>
>> I don't consider any of this trivial, given the current design of the site.

I've missed that part. Does anybody have a link to these trivial
changes to judge? Preferably in this space -
http://wiki.python.org/moin/

> Stuff can be done to mitigate the problems. For EuroPython, I just asked to
> have access, and I've made these relatively minor changes which I hope aren't
> too disruptive. For python.org, and particularly for an outsider, the barrier
> to entry is just too high.

True. I still can't even compile site locally.
-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 14:10:42 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:10:42 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
	list dead pile and private lists)
Message-ID: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>

"There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."

Current status:

docs at python.org - public support mailling list
docs-sig at python.org - non-intuitive development name, but it's
documentation development group
Web pages:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/docs
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/doc-sig (outdated)
http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/doc-sig/status/
http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/doc-sig/
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/
http://docs.python.org/bugs.html#documentation-bugs
http://docs.python.org/documenting/index.html

I see problems:
- too many entrypoints (hard to maintain)
- no main entrypoint with this list for maintenance
- ML members do not have access to update status / collaborate
- no web access to ML

I propose:
1. have doc@ alias  (I had troubles remembering correct doc@ or docs@ name)
2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)
3. merge various HTML pages (including mailman) into one/two
entrypoint page and allow community update it
4. 3 obviously requires a Wiki page
5. add web posting interface with OAuth/OpenID support (Google Groups,
anything else?)
6. add custom search form for doc development archives and docs
(twisted has one for mailman)

(I still don't understand people who don't like web interfaces, but
still firing email agent to fill their GUI email form fields that is
no different from web-based except that fields are not autofilled
using browser cookie).

Does it look like a plan?
-- 
anatoly t.



On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 25.04.2010 10:11, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Martin already mentioned mail.python.org, but I wanted to highlight it
>>> because it has an HTTP server for Mailman, so it contains all the mailing
>>> list archives and going to http://mail.python.org/ shows the public
>>> mailing lists.
>>
>> The important part of it is that private archives are not listed.
>> For example docs at python.org (or is it doc at python.org?) is almost
>> impossible for volunteer to discover that it is possible to
>> participate. There is also Doc-SIG, but it is not very active.
>>
>> So, I propose to review current SIGs ML, private ML and merge/remove
>> or archive dead ML.
>>
>> The question to whatever to make docs/doc@ public is for Georg. I
>> can't insist on things I am not actively participate in.
>
> I've already decided to make the docs archives public. ?However, the
> previous archives have to be removed first; like for pydotorg, I do
> not want them to be publicly available when the senders thought
> otherwise. ?As soon as the postmasters have archived the archive :)
> the new archives will be public.
>
> As for doc-SIG and docs at python.org: the former is for the discussion
> of the "how" of our documentation -- how to write it, how to build it,
> what features it should have. ?The latter is for day-to-day handling
> of issues and reports/comments people send to docs at python.org. ?Think
> of it like the difference between python-dev and the tracker/checkins
> lists.
>
> Also, if you want to post more to docs at python.org, I would recommend
> to subscribe, otherwise I'll have to moderate all your posts.
>
> Georg
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)
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> iEYEARECAAYFAkvUFIAACgkQN9GcIYhpnLAmBQCcD+hHFht78ZXxGvIIXbR9wzqT
> OU4AnA5dPxgOXUvM+UEWkjlgSjfB69p9
> =5irg
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

From skip at pobox.com  Sun Apr 25 14:23:58 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:23:58 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Mailing list dead pile and private lists (Was:
 python.org ecosystem)
In-Reply-To: <o2id34314101004250111z53fb5800u56f704a392fa55f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2id34314101004250111z53fb5800u56f704a392fa55f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19412.13406.592223.22434@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    anatoly> The important part of it is that private archives are not
    anatoly> listed.  For example docs at python.org (or is it doc at python.org?)
    anatoly> is almost impossible for volunteer to discover that it is
    anatoly> possible to participate. There is also Doc-SIG, but it is not
    anatoly> very active.

Private lists (and archives) are private for a reason.   You will have to
ask the admin of the lists you're interested in why that is so.  Each list
is administered independently.

Skip

From goodger at python.org  Sun Apr 25 14:36:01 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 08:36:01 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan (python.org and navigation)
In-Reply-To: <m2od34314101004250348z3ea8029dr18ee501cfdc8c02d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD0B9C3.7050908@v.loewis.de>
	<n2i4222a8491004221414h64d5d609x8f726fadab5ef2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004230055.11108.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<m2od34314101004250348z3ea8029dr18ee501cfdc8c02d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <j2w4335d2c41004250536ya9e05ce5la6d468df5441fbee@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 06:48, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
>> Another thing with ReST is that if that's what you would rather use, you will
>> only ever produce content that can be comfortably expressed in that format.

It's easy to insert raw HTML as well, when the limitations of reST are hit.

> Docbook is much much much worse. =)
>
>> As I experienced with ReST's predecessor, convenience of notation is a great
>> thing, but after a while bundling stuff into nested lists is no substitute
>> for a more compelling visual aid such as a table. Only Lisp programmers want
>> to see all the content presented in a monotonous, uniform fashion. ;-)
>
> Really?

No, Paul misrepresents reST here. Tables are integral to reST,
expressible in multiple ways:
grid tables: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#grid-tables
simple tables: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#simple-tables
CSV table directive:
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#id1
List table directive:
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#list-table

Why so many? Because reST is a 2D markup, and tables are hard to edit
in 2D ASCII (easier than editing raw HTML though -- modulo personal
preference, of course).

Again, anything HTML can do, reST can do too -- via raw inclusion if necessary:
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#raw-data-pass-through

> A tabless pydotorg? That's a real surprise. Now I see.

The lack of tables is not because of any limitation of the technology.

> Is
> there any page describing current limitations (and optionally
> advantages) of current pydotorg engine? Is there a description of
> pre-pre engine?

The old engine used ht2html: http://ht2html.sourceforge.net/
It required that authors write & edit HTML fragments.

> I'd really like to see some wikipedia-like summary on the history of
> www.python.org linked somewhere from
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsite

I don't think it exists.

> It seems the "new-build"
> is not that new anymore and old Redesign pages like may confuse people
> and lead into wrong direction. ?So the knowledge about previous
> "mistakes" or implementation would help to design better system.

Possibly. Please feel free to record your research.

>>> > What I also don't understand why these trivial changes have to wait for
>>> > a revamp of the entire site.
>>>
>>> I don't consider any of this trivial, given the current design of the site.
>
> I've missed that part. Does anybody have a link to these trivial
> changes to judge? Preferably in this space -
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/

You seem to be under the impression that somebody will magically do
this work for you. Won't happen.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From goodger at python.org  Sun Apr 25 14:37:49 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 08:37:49 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
	list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 08:10, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)

-1. That's change for the sake of change, cost without benefit.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 14:50:19 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:50:19 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] webmaster@ vs pydotorg-www@
Message-ID: <i2ud34314101004250550va89ac67ewc150b3301751155d@mail.gmail.com>

Now that we have some important people securely locked in 'pydotorg',
can anybody remind the status quo of 'webmaster at python.org'?

My original idea assumed that we have public list for community
collaboration that is a direct channel for any feedback from the
website. Now all feedback goes into webmaster at python.org  I was going
to rewrite feedback email on
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets and maybe
in some other places, but thought it might be a better idea to just
redirect it here.

-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 14:52:25 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:52:25 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
	list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:37 PM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 08:10, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)
>
> -1. That's change for the sake of change, cost without benefit.

That's change for consistency with python-dev@
-- 
anatoly t.

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 14:54:25 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:54:25 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 13:52, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:37 PM, David Goodger<goodger at python.org>  wrote:
>    
>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 08:10, anatoly techtonik<techtonik at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>      
>>> 2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)
>>>        
>> -1. That's change for the sake of change, cost without benefit.
>>      
> That's change for consistency with python-dev@
>    
But inconsistency with all the other special-interest-group (sig) 
mailing lists.

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 15:04:24 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:04:24 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD43DD8.1010609@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 14:10, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."
> 
> Current status:
> 
> docs at python.org - public support mailling list
> docs-sig at python.org - non-intuitive development name, but it's
> documentation development group

Non-intuitive or not, it is a SIG and therefore that name is the
right one.

> Web pages:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/docs
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/doc-sig (outdated)
> http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/doc-sig/status/
> http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/doc-sig/
> http://www.python.org/dev/doc/

Just an entry page that refers to all other resources.  I've updated
it to serve its purpose better.

> http://docs.python.org/bugs.html#documentation-bugs
> http://docs.python.org/documenting/index.html
>
> 
> I see problems:
> - too many entrypoints (hard to maintain)
> - no main entrypoint with this list for maintenance
> - ML members do not have access to update status / collaborate
> - no web access to ML
> 
> I propose:
> 1. have doc@ alias  (I had troubles remembering correct doc@ or docs@ name)

Can't hurt; I'll contact the postmasters about that.

> 2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)

As I said above, this change is not useful.

> 3. merge various HTML pages (including mailman) into one/two
> entrypoint page and allow community update it
> 4. 3 obviously requires a Wiki page

I agree that the doc-SIG pages are outdated.  I will ask the SIG coordinator
what we should do with the old content, and then update the pages
accordingly.

> 5. add web posting interface with OAuth/OpenID support (Google Groups,
> anything else?)
> 6. add custom search form for doc development archives and docs
> (twisted has one for mailman)

Those two are not specific to the docs list(s); you're going to have
to ask the postmasters if this is feasible.  (I guess not.)

> (I still don't understand people who don't like web interfaces, but
> still firing email agent to fill their GUI email form fields that is
> no different from web-based except that fields are not autofilled
> using browser cookie).

I don't understand what you mean, sorry.  Mailing lists are called that
for a reason.

Georg

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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Apr 25 15:16:58 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:16:58 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] webmaster@ vs pydotorg-www@
In-Reply-To: <i2ud34314101004250550va89ac67ewc150b3301751155d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2ud34314101004250550va89ac67ewc150b3301751155d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100425131657.GA11602@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>
> Now that we have some important people securely locked in 'pydotorg',
> can anybody remind the status quo of 'webmaster at python.org'?
> 
> My original idea assumed that we have public list for community
> collaboration that is a direct channel for any feedback from the
> website. Now all feedback goes into webmaster at python.org  I was going
> to rewrite feedback email on
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets and maybe
> in some other places, but thought it might be a better idea to just
> redirect it here.

You may change the wiki, but many people will still assume that
webmaster@ is a primary mechanism for contacting the website; webmaster@
will NOT redirect to pydotorg-www in case someone sends private or
sensitive information.  If you do make that change, make very clear that
pydotorg-www is a PUBLIC list with a PUBLIC ARCHIVE.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 15:18:33 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:18:33 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
	list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
Message-ID: <i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)
>>>>
>>>
>>> -1. That's change for the sake of change, cost without benefit.
>>>
>>
>> That's change for consistency with python-dev@
>>
>
> But inconsistency with all the other special-interest-group (sig) mailing
> lists.

Most of them are dead. Is it the sort of consistency we need? =)

Frankly, I do not really see why is it important to maintain a
separated ML dedicated to things that happen in another ML with rather
low traffic. People not subscribed to docs@ are unlikely to be
familiar with problems there. People from docs@ familiar with
problems, should also subscribe to docs-sig@ to participate in
discussion. How many new contributors subscribe to both lists? Even
now crossposting this thread causes duplicates in my email. I think
the process just won't work if docs@ become public.

-- 
anatoly t.

From ctrachte at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 15:40:22 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:40:22 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <4BD4155A.9040009@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD4155A.9040009@python.org>
Message-ID: <k2k426ada671004250640sd9a22a91p61af8e7f9d606be4@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/25/10, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 25.04.2010 11:53, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This pixelated jpeg is of very bad quality - it reminds me about those
>>>> ancient pages with animated gifs and HTML 2.0 markup. Is there a
>>>> hi-res source for it to make a .png?
>>>
>>> Sorry, I don't see any "pixelation" or bad quality.  The image is nicely
>>> antialiased.  Except of course if you blow it up to different sizes.  But
>>> that's not necessary here.
>>
>> It is automatically dithered due to poor jpeg compression - not
>> antialiased in any way. If your screen resolution is too high or
>> monitor is not calibrated, then look at attached images - one is 4x
>> scaled without any antialising filters, the other is 4x with automatic
>> contrast.
>
> Of course there are losses due to JPEG compression.  Maybe my monitor's
> contrast really is too bad for me to see it.
>
> The point is that this sidetrack leads nowhere; the important issue is
> where to place the symbol and on which pages.  When that is decided, you
> or another volunteer are of course free to produce an image of better
> quality.
>
> Georg
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkvUFVoACgkQN9GcIYhpnLDLywCfQTz1laJ+5fvUabmLj71v/uXv
> CX8Anj3XKs+VDPSjRbHIwAcubKjAuN8q
> =zGg3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

The image was the most appropriate one I could find off a google
search for world map graphic.  YMMV.

Anatoly, it's a difference in philosophy - if I can get a link to the
language pages - any link  - from python.org, it's a win.  Right now
they're languishing on the wiki.  Pardon my pragmatism.

Georg has been helpful in guiding me along on this.  You would be more
helpful if you came up with a better graphic before writing an e-mail
pointing out the graphic's flaws.  Please consider finding a better
graphic before writing again.  I'd be grateful for your contribution
and most likely wouldn't oppose a change.  Thanks.

Carl T.

>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 15:56:31 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:56:31 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <k2k426ada671004250640sd9a22a91p61af8e7f9d606be4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD4155A.9040009@python.org>
	<k2k426ada671004250640sd9a22a91p61af8e7f9d606be4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <v2kd34314101004250656j60277858waaff9098e5a87cdb@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Carl Trachte <ctrachte at gmail.com> wrote:
> The image was the most appropriate one I could find off a google
> search for world map graphic. ?YMMV.

That's good, but if you can find a better resolution image (colored or
not), I am sure that anybody with design touch and GIMP knowledge can
make the same image of a better grade.

Any designers around to help?

> Anatoly, it's a difference in philosophy - if I can get a link to the
> language pages - any link ?- from python.org, it's a win. ?Right now
> they're languishing on the wiki. ?Pardon my pragmatism.

Wiki is languishing itself, but I think it is the most awesome tool we
have with history bookmarks and page subscription. It is just not
ready. Not yet.

> Georg has been helpful in guiding me along on this. ?You would be more
> helpful if you came up with a better graphic before writing an e-mail
> pointing out the graphic's flaws. ?Please consider finding a better
> graphic before writing again. ?I'd be grateful for your contribution
> and most likely wouldn't oppose a change. ?Thanks.

Thanks for the notice, but I needed to confirm that there is no better
image, and now I am out of time, unfortunately. But the idea is worthy
regardless of used image.
-- 
anatoly t.

From amk at amk.ca  Sun Apr 25 15:56:59 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:56:59 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:53:29PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> P.S. Is there any web stats for pydotorg like browser/country/etc?

http://www.python.org/webstats/ ; most other python.org web servers
also have /webstats/ subdirectories.

Does Debian include other logfile analysis software that produces more
useful results?  We could certainly switch to a different package.

At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.  I'd
prefer to just find a better logfile analysis.

--amk

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 15:59:53 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:59:53 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] webmaster@ vs pydotorg-www@
In-Reply-To: <20100425131657.GA11602@panix.com>
References: <i2ud34314101004250550va89ac67ewc150b3301751155d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425131657.GA11602@panix.com>
Message-ID: <t2sd34314101004250659hda737c9cy1cb72225ab53ecec@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Now that we have some important people securely locked in 'pydotorg',
>> can anybody remind the status quo of 'webmaster at python.org'?
>>
>> My original idea assumed that we have public list for community
>> collaboration that is a direct channel for any feedback from the
>> website. Now all feedback goes into webmaster at python.org ?I was going
>> to rewrite feedback email on
>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets and maybe
>> in some other places, but thought it might be a better idea to just
>> redirect it here.
>
> You may change the wiki, but many people will still assume that
> webmaster@ is a primary mechanism for contacting the website; webmaster@
> will NOT redirect to pydotorg-www in case someone sends private or
> sensitive information. ?If you do make that change, make very clear that
> pydotorg-www is a PUBLIC list with a PUBLIC ARCHIVE.

Where does webmaster@ redirect then? pydotorg@ ?
-- 
anatoly t.

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 16:02:54 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:02:54 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 14:56, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:53:29PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>    
>> P.S. Is there any web stats for pydotorg like browser/country/etc?
>>      
> http://www.python.org/webstats/ ; most other python.org web servers
> also have /webstats/ subdirectories.
>
> Does Debian include other logfile analysis software that produces more
> useful results?  We could certainly switch to a different package.
>
>    

I like awstats - but it is not fundamentally very different from 
webalizer. (Just slightly prettier / more useful output in my opinion.)

> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.  I'd
> prefer to just find a better logfile analysis.
>    

I'm not aware of any genuine privacy concerns raised by the use of 
google analytics. If anyone wants to prevent their browsing being 
recorded by google analytics (or other similar services) they will 
already block it or have switched off javascript altogether.

All the best,

Michael

> --amk
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From skip at pobox.com  Sun Apr 25 16:20:05 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:20:05 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] webmaster@ vs pydotorg-www@
In-Reply-To: <t2sd34314101004250659hda737c9cy1cb72225ab53ecec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2ud34314101004250550va89ac67ewc150b3301751155d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425131657.GA11602@panix.com>
	<t2sd34314101004250659hda737c9cy1cb72225ab53ecec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19412.20373.214563.622578@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    anatoly> Where does webmaster@ redirect then? pydotorg@ ?

No.  webmaster is its own list.  I don't know if it's required by RFC, but
even if it's not, it is required by convention.  It includes people who are
responsible for the care and feeding of the underlying Apache webservers as
well as people responsible for the content of the various sites.
Traditionally, pydotorg has been a private list.  Initial triage of messages
arriving at the webmaster address is performed by people like Aahz and a few
others.  They direct messages to other email aliases as appropriate.

Let me add one other point here.  We have undergone this total rewrite of
the website once before.  I don't recall it being all that fun then.  That
probably has a lot to do with the fact that some of us old-timers are
hesitant to make sweeping changes to the way everything is done.  Please,
focus on one thing, the content of the website.  Please don't try to change
absolutely everything.

Skip

From skip at pobox.com  Sun Apr 25 16:21:16 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:21:16 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19412.20444.88264.559221@montanaro.dyndns.org>

>>>>> "anatoly" == anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> writes:

    anatoly> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:37 PM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
    >> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 08:10, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
    >>> 2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)
    >> 
    >> -1. That's change for the sake of change, cost without benefit.

    anatoly> That's change for consistency with python-dev@

Why on earth is that necessary?  Can you not adapt to "sig" meaning "special
interest group" and live with the status quo?

S

From skip at pobox.com  Sun Apr 25 16:23:20 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:23:20 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
	<i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19412.20568.280110.897212@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    anatoly> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
    >>>>> 
    >>>>> 2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)
    >>>>> 
    >>>> 
    >>>> -1. That's change for the sake of change, cost without benefit.
    >>>> 
    >>> 
    >>> That's change for consistency with python-dev@
    >>> 
    >> 
    >> But inconsistency with all the other special-interest-group (sig) mailing
    >> lists.

    anatoly> Most of them are dead. Is it the sort of consistency we need? =)

That is the intent of sigs.  They are there for awhile to serve their
function, then they go away.  Practically speaking, they go dormant.  Their
archives remain.  We haven't always adhered to that convention (e.g.,
pythonmac-sig isn't going away anytime soon), but that is/was its intent.

Skip

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Apr 25 16:26:56 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:26:56 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] webmaster@ vs pydotorg-www@
In-Reply-To: <19412.20373.214563.622578@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <i2ud34314101004250550va89ac67ewc150b3301751155d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425131657.GA11602@panix.com>
	<t2sd34314101004250659hda737c9cy1cb72225ab53ecec@mail.gmail.com>
	<19412.20373.214563.622578@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20100425142655.GA6769@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, skip at pobox.com wrote:
> 
>     anatoly> Where does webmaster@ redirect then? pydotorg@ ?
> 
> No.  webmaster is its own list.  

Almost correct -- webmaster@ is an alias, so that even if mailman is
down, people on the alias will still get messages (assuming e-mail
works).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 16:32:30 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:32:30 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <19412.20568.280110.897212@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
	<i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>
	<19412.20568.280110.897212@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4527E.2030507@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 15:23, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>      anatoly>  On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>  wrote:
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>>  2. rename doc-sig@ to doc-dev@ (or docs-dev@?)
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>  -1. That's change for the sake of change, cost without benefit.
>      >>>>
>      >>>
>      >>>  That's change for consistency with python-dev@
>      >>>
>      >>
>      >>  But inconsistency with all the other special-interest-group (sig) mailing
>      >>  lists.
>
>      anatoly>  Most of them are dead. Is it the sort of consistency we need? =)
>
> That is the intent of sigs.  They are there for awhile to serve their
> function, then they go away.  Practically speaking, they go dormant.  Their
> archives remain.  We haven't always adhered to that convention (e.g.,
> pythonmac-sig isn't going away anytime soon), but that is/was its intent.
>    

pythonmac-sig is active - at least sporadically (several threads in the 
last week).

Michael



> Skip
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From amk at amk.ca  Sun Apr 25 16:37:27 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:37:27 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100425143726.GB8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 07:28:58PM -0600, Carl Trachte wrote:
> My rational is that
> 1) whoever put Summer of Code and Uses Python there felt they were
> important enough to have the top spots.

The web site wasn't handed down to us from our ancestors, though; if a
box is no longer useful, we can remove it.  I'm not fond of it -- are
the listed applications the most useful/interesting? are all of them
still relevant? -- and would approve of just dropping it.  We can find
other things to do with that real estate.

> 3) having it on every page IMO is overkill.

I agree that it looks better on the left-hand side, but can't think of
a way to restrict it to only the home page, given how our templates
are laid out.  People might land on sub-pages through a search engine
query, so maybe it's not a problem if the graphic is on every single
page.

--amk

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 16:47:02 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:47:02 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <20100425143726.GB8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425143726.GB8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BD455E6.8030304@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 15:37, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 07:28:58PM -0600, Carl Trachte wrote:
>    
>> My rational is that
>> 1) whoever put Summer of Code and Uses Python there felt they were
>> important enough to have the top spots.
>>      
> The web site wasn't handed down to us from our ancestors, though; if a
> box is no longer useful, we can remove it.  I'm not fond of it -- are
> the listed applications the most useful/interesting? are all of them
> still relevant? -- and would approve of just dropping it.  We can find
> other things to do with that real estate.
>
>    

Now that summer of code applications are closed it is no longer so 
important to have the soc logo on the front page.

>> 3) having it on every page IMO is overkill.
>>      
> I agree that it looks better on the left-hand side, but can't think of
> a way to restrict it to only the home page, given how our templates
> are laid out.  People might land on sub-pages through a search engine
> query, so maybe it's not a problem if the graphic is on every single
> page.
>    

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that.

All the best,

Michael

> --amk
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


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From skip at pobox.com  Sun Apr 25 16:49:48 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:49:48 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <4BD4527E.2030507@python.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
	<i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>
	<19412.20568.280110.897212@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BD4527E.2030507@python.org>
Message-ID: <19412.22156.735115.233625@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    >> That is the intent of sigs.  They are there for awhile to serve their
    >> function, then they go away.  Practically speaking, they go dormant.
    >> Their archives remain.  We haven't always adhered to that convention
    >> (e.g., pythonmac-sig isn't going away anytime soon), but that is/was
    >> its intent.

    Michael> pythonmac-sig is active - at least sporadically (several
    Michael> threads in the last week).

Sorry if I was unclear.  Despite its "-sig" suffix it was never intended to
be a short-lived mailing list.

Skip

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 16:54:14 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:54:14 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <19412.22156.735115.233625@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
	<i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>
	<19412.20568.280110.897212@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BD4527E.2030507@python.org>
	<19412.22156.735115.233625@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BD45796.80108@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 15:49, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>      >>  That is the intent of sigs.  They are there for awhile to serve their
>      >>  function, then they go away.  Practically speaking, they go dormant.
>      >>  Their archives remain.  We haven't always adhered to that convention
>      >>  (e.g., pythonmac-sig isn't going away anytime soon), but that is/was
>      >>  its intent.
>
>      Michael>  pythonmac-sig is active - at least sporadically (several
>      Michael>  threads in the last week).
>
> Sorry if I was unclear.  Despite its "-sig" suffix it was never intended to
> be a short-lived mailing list.
>
>    

Ah, re-reading what you wrote that is clearer. I don't think "short 
lived" is part of the intent of even the majority of sigs though - 
catalog-sig is active and long lived, so is edu-sig, so is 
distutils-sig, so is email-sig, so is web-sig (and so on).

So anatoly's original hypothesis that most of the sigs are defunct is 
very wrong.

All the best,

Michael

> Skip
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From amk at amk.ca  Sun Apr 25 17:04:48 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:04:48 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

Here's an updated draft (at the same URL -- hit Shift-Reload if
necessary):

http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html

It adds 'Non-English Resources' on the left-hand side.

--amk

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 17:12:43 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:12:43 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BD45BEB.6070200@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 16:04, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> Here's an updated draft (at the same URL -- hit Shift-Reload if
> necessary):
>
> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html
>
> It adds 'Non-English Resources' on the left-hand side.
>    

Nice.

Michael

> --amk
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From amk at amk.ca  Sun Apr 25 17:20:44 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:20:44 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint
In-Reply-To: <4BD43DD8.1010609@python.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43DD8.1010609@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100425152044.GA9098@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 03:04:24PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
> I agree that the doc-SIG pages are outdated.  I will ask the SIG coordinator
> what we should do with the old content, and then update the pages
> accordingly.

I'd suggest dropping them; they're very old, referring to the PSA
(1990s forerunner to the PSF), and the heart of documentation activity
is now docs.python.org.  I'd like to see us discard most (all?) of the
sig pages; they're all pretty outdated.

--amk

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 17:24:54 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:24:54 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint
In-Reply-To: <20100425152044.GA9098@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD43DD8.1010609@python.org>
	<20100425152044.GA9098@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BD45EC6.50909@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 16:20, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 03:04:24PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
>    
>> I agree that the doc-SIG pages are outdated.  I will ask the SIG coordinator
>> what we should do with the old content, and then update the pages
>> accordingly.
>>      
> I'd suggest dropping them; they're very old, referring to the PSA
> (1990s forerunner to the PSF), and the heart of documentation activity
> is now docs.python.org.  I'd like to see us discard most (all?) of the
> sig pages; they're all pretty outdated.
>    

Agreed - some of them contain *no content at all*, not even links back 
to the sig itself. Those pages should redirect back to the mailman page 
for the mailing list.

Michael

> --amk
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 17:42:36 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:42:36 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <4BD45BEB.6070200@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD45BEB.6070200@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD462EC.4020704@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 17:12, schrieb Michael Foord:
> On 25/04/2010 16:04, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>> Here's an updated draft (at the same URL -- hit Shift-Reload if
>> necessary):
>>
>> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html
>>
>> It adds 'Non-English Resources' on the left-hand side.
>>    
> 
> Nice.

Agreed.  I'd suggest cropping the image at the top and bottom, making
it a bit more compact.

Georg
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=pbH7
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Apr 25 17:43:32 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 08:43:32 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <20100425154332.GA26458@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>
> Here's an updated draft (at the same URL -- hit Shift-Reload if
> necessary):
> 
> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html

Looks good to me!
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 17:54:27 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:54:27 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint
In-Reply-To: <4BD45EC6.50909@python.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD43DD8.1010609@python.org>	<20100425152044.GA9098@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD45EC6.50909@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD465B3.2030402@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 17:24, schrieb Michael Foord:
> On 25/04/2010 16:20, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 03:04:24PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
>>    
>>> I agree that the doc-SIG pages are outdated.  I will ask the SIG coordinator
>>> what we should do with the old content, and then update the pages
>>> accordingly.
>>>      
>> I'd suggest dropping them; they're very old, referring to the PSA
>> (1990s forerunner to the PSF), and the heart of documentation activity
>> is now docs.python.org.  I'd like to see us discard most (all?) of the
>> sig pages; they're all pretty outdated.
>>    
> 
> Agreed - some of them contain *no content at all*, not even links back 
> to the sig itself. Those pages should redirect back to the mailman page 
> for the mailing list.

I've now removed all outdated information from the doc-SIG page.

At the moment, all SIGs do have their own pages, therefore I did not drop
the doc-SIG page right away.  Some SIG pages do seem relevant, e.g. catalog-sig
and edu-sig.  We'll have to decide where to put that info in case we want to
remove SIG pages.

Georg
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=y/ol
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From skip at pobox.com  Sun Apr 25 18:03:03 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:03:03 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <4BD45796.80108@python.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
	<i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>
	<19412.20568.280110.897212@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BD4527E.2030507@python.org>
	<19412.22156.735115.233625@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BD45796.80108@python.org>
Message-ID: <19412.26551.404121.382932@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Michael> I don't think "short lived" is part of the intent of even the
    Michael> majority of sigs though ...

That's because those which adhered to the short-lived intent are gone. ;-)

Skip

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 18:04:11 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:04:11 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint (Was: [docs] Mailing
 list dead pile and private lists)
In-Reply-To: <19412.26551.404121.382932@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2r4335d2c41004250537i2b3f797fmfcb40be335a6cfea@mail.gmail.com>
	<p2xd34314101004250552kb81eb965g45361cfcb8d94e6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD43B81.1040704@python.org>
	<i2nd34314101004250618m7c7c687elfcffc27061f2ba81@mail.gmail.com>
	<19412.20568.280110.897212@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BD4527E.2030507@python.org>
	<19412.22156.735115.233625@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4BD45796.80108@python.org>
	<19412.26551.404121.382932@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4BD467FB.8070703@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 17:03, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>      Michael>  I don't think "short lived" is part of the intent of even the
>      Michael>  majority of sigs though ...
>
> That's because those which adhered to the short-lived intent are gone. ;-)
>    

Hah. Hard to argue with that. :-)

Michael

> Skip
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sun Apr 25 18:08:33 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:08:33 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan (python.org and navigation)
In-Reply-To: <j2w4335d2c41004250536ya9e05ce5la6d468df5441fbee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2od34314101004250348z3ea8029dr18ee501cfdc8c02d@mail.gmail.com>
	<j2w4335d2c41004250536ya9e05ce5la6d468df5441fbee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201004251808.33616.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Sunday 25 April 2010 14:36:01 David Goodger wrote:
>
> No, Paul misrepresents reST here. Tables are integral to reST,
> expressible in multiple ways:
> grid tables:
> 
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#grid-tables
> simple tables: 
> 
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#simple-tables
> CSV table directive: 
> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#id1
> List table directive:
> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#list-table

My apologies for selling reST short. I'm not a huge fan of MoinMoin's table 
markup (or MediaWiki's for that matter, although it has its advantages), but 
it offers (indeed, they both offer) a decent compromise between plain 
text "effects" and minimal magic when interpreting what people have written. 
In contrast, the "simple tables" of reST are likely to be something that many 
people would only attempt to write out the first time and very quickly become 
tired of having to keep them updated.

MediaWiki's markup is largely inferior to MoinMoin's, as far as I have 
experienced, but its table syntax has certain benefits in permitting 
individual cells to be written on their own line. This reduces the amount of 
menial formatting work that fancier table representations often demand, 
driving people (as I noted) to just writing things out in simpler notations 
and thus using less appropriate visual representations.

[python.org's history]

> You seem to be under the impression that somebody will magically do
> this work for you. Won't happen.

Although I think Anatoly sometimes asks a bit much, it's difficult even for 
people like me who have experienced the evolution of the site since the 
mid-1990s to remember what changed and when, and it's unfortunate that the 
details of that evolution are spread out across several places and need 
gathering together again. Certainly, any discussions about the changes as 
they happened are important in order to review what was done, what people 
didn't like, what people probably still don't like, and to avoid making any 
similar mistakes again.

Paul

From skip at pobox.com  Sun Apr 25 18:08:03 2010
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:08:03 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    amk> Here's an updated draft (at the same URL -- hit Shift-Reload if
    amk> necessary):

    amk> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html

    amk> It adds 'Non-English Resources' on the left-hand side.

I'd put that on the right and get rid of it from the left.  Replace the GSoC
graphic with it.

An interesting exercise might be to implement a bit of JavaScript which
rotates the phrase "Non-English Resources" among several (four to six?)
languages: German, French, Chinese, Spanish, etc.  The rotation need not
reflect the location of the cursor.  Movement by a few pixels within the map
would rotate to the next translation.

Skip


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sun Apr 25 18:14:03 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:14:03 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
Message-ID: <201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Sunday 25 April 2010 16:02:54 Michael Foord wrote:
> On 25/04/2010 14:56, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:53:29PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> >> P.S. Is there any web stats for pydotorg like browser/country/etc?
> >
> > http://www.python.org/webstats/ ; most other python.org web servers
> > also have /webstats/ subdirectories.
> >
> > Does Debian include other logfile analysis software that produces more
> > useful results?  We could certainly switch to a different package.
>
> I like awstats - but it is not fundamentally very different from
> webalizer. (Just slightly prettier / more useful output in my opinion.)

My experience, from having to install such software at work (albeit for an FTP 
site), was that The Webalizer was a lot more sane to install than AWStats, 
documentation for the latter just being plain awful. It almost tempted me to 
write my own log analysis software in Python.

[...]

> I'm not aware of any genuine privacy concerns raised by the use of
> google analytics. If anyone wants to prevent their browsing being
> recorded by google analytics (or other similar services) they will
> already block it or have switched off javascript altogether.

For the EuroPython sites, I was very much against Google Analytics: not only 
does (or did) it seem to slow down the loading of sites, effectively pausing 
the loading of content, but the matter of analysis was obviously tied to 
Google. I don't think it should be the aim of python.org to be yet another 
site for which people need to start blocking scripts and content in order for 
it to support a comfortable browsing experience.

Paul

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Apr 25 18:19:00 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:19:00 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
	<201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100425161859.GA17949@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, Paul Boddie wrote:
>
> For the EuroPython sites, I was very much against Google Analytics:
> not only does (or did) it seem to slow down the loading of sites,
> effectively pausing the loading of content, but the matter of analysis
> was obviously tied to Google. I don't think it should be the aim of
> python.org to be yet another site for which people need to start
> blocking scripts and content in order for it to support a comfortable
> browsing experience.

+1
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 18:28:15 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:28:15 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
	<201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 17:14, Paul Boddie wrote:
> On Sunday 25 April 2010 16:02:54 Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> On 25/04/2010 14:56, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>>      
>>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:53:29PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>>        
>>>> P.S. Is there any web stats for pydotorg like browser/country/etc?
>>>>          
>>> http://www.python.org/webstats/ ; most other python.org web servers
>>> also have /webstats/ subdirectories.
>>>
>>> Does Debian include other logfile analysis software that produces more
>>> useful results?  We could certainly switch to a different package.
>>>        
>> I like awstats - but it is not fundamentally very different from
>> webalizer. (Just slightly prettier / more useful output in my opinion.)
>>      
> My experience, from having to install such software at work (albeit for an FTP
> site), was that The Webalizer was a lot more sane to install than AWStats,
> documentation for the latter just being plain awful. It almost tempted me to
> write my own log analysis software in Python.
>    

I've installed awstats a couple of times myself and it wasn't so hard. :-)

Not that I haven't been tempted to write my own log analyser software in 
Python *too* though...

> [...]
>
>    
>> I'm not aware of any genuine privacy concerns raised by the use of
>> google analytics. If anyone wants to prevent their browsing being
>> recorded by google analytics (or other similar services) they will
>> already block it or have switched off javascript altogether.
>>      
> For the EuroPython sites, I was very much against Google Analytics: not only
> does (or did) it seem to slow down the loading of sites, effectively pausing
> the loading of content,

There are various standard ways of solving that problem, this one being 
the recommended:

http://code.google.com/apis/analytics/docs/tracking/asyncTracking.html

> but the matter of analysis was obviously tied to
> Google.
I haven't seen a rational explanation for why google analytics is a 
privacy concern.

All the best,

Michael Foord

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From es at ethanschoonover.com  Sun Apr 25 19:17:08 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:17:08 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org> 
	<201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk> <4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>
Message-ID: <q2qd72a15511004251017m7f8b23eby7b80047b4187e60b@mail.gmail.com>

My impression of Google Analytics has been very positive from both a
utility and privacy perspective.

See the recent opt-out announcement, for instance:
http://analytics.blogspot.com/2010/03/more-choice-for-users-browser-based-opt.html

I would strongly recommend exploring an option like GA before
installing yet a third party tracking system requiring
maintenance/upgrades (even if minor, in my experience small
maintenance becomes another bottleneck). GA's interface is generally
very easy to use as well.

es

Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com




On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 09:28, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> On 25/04/2010 17:14, Paul Boddie wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday 25 April 2010 16:02:54 Michael Foord wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 25/04/2010 14:56, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:53:29PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. Is there any web stats for pydotorg like browser/country/etc?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.python.org/webstats/ ; most other python.org web servers
>>>> also have /webstats/ subdirectories.
>>>>
>>>> Does Debian include other logfile analysis software that produces more
>>>> useful results? ?We could certainly switch to a different package.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I like awstats - but it is not fundamentally very different from
>>> webalizer. (Just slightly prettier / more useful output in my opinion.)
>>>
>>
>> My experience, from having to install such software at work (albeit for an
>> FTP
>> site), was that The Webalizer was a lot more sane to install than AWStats,
>> documentation for the latter just being plain awful. It almost tempted me
>> to
>> write my own log analysis software in Python.
>>
>
> I've installed awstats a couple of times myself and it wasn't so hard. :-)
>
> Not that I haven't been tempted to write my own log analyser software in
> Python *too* though...
>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any genuine privacy concerns raised by the use of
>>> google analytics. If anyone wants to prevent their browsing being
>>> recorded by google analytics (or other similar services) they will
>>> already block it or have switched off javascript altogether.
>>>
>>
>> For the EuroPython sites, I was very much against Google Analytics: not
>> only
>> does (or did) it seem to slow down the loading of sites, effectively
>> pausing
>> the loading of content,
>
> There are various standard ways of solving that problem, this one being the
> recommended:
>
> http://code.google.com/apis/analytics/docs/tracking/asyncTracking.html
>
>> but the matter of analysis was obviously tied to
>> Google.
>
> I haven't seen a rational explanation for why google analytics is a privacy
> concern.
>
> All the best,
>
> Michael Foord
>
> --
> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
>
> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of
> your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from
> any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service,
> shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure,
> non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have
> entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and
> assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and
> privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me
> from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From barry at python.org  Sun Apr 25 19:56:08 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:56:08 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Docs development entrypoint
In-Reply-To: <4BD45EC6.50909@python.org>
References: <o2pd34314101004250510t94be210az6b5dee576ca142b6@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD43DD8.1010609@python.org>
	<20100425152044.GA9098@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD45EC6.50909@python.org>
Message-ID: <2BAB596C-D140-4C3D-803B-88EC78DB24B2@python.org>

On Apr 25, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Michael Foord wrote:

> On 25/04/2010 16:20, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 03:04:24PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
>>   
>>> I agree that the doc-SIG pages are outdated.  I will ask the SIG coordinator
>>> what we should do with the old content, and then update the pages
>>> accordingly.
>>>     
>> I'd suggest dropping them; they're very old, referring to the PSA
>> (1990s forerunner to the PSF), and the heart of documentation activity
>> is now docs.python.org.  I'd like to see us discard most (all?) of the
>> sig pages; they're all pretty outdated.
>>   
> 
> Agreed - some of them contain *no content at all*, not even links back to the sig itself. Those pages should redirect back to the mailman page for the mailing list.

IIRC, the sig pages were always so out of date because they were web pages that had to be edited like all the other www.p.o web pages.  If they're not wiki pages now, they really should be.  I think SIGs (whether short- or long-lived, doesn't matter) have more value if they're tied to an area on the wiki.

-Barry


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sun Apr 25 20:22:30 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 20:22:30 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <q2qd72a15511004251017m7f8b23eby7b80047b4187e60b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>
	<q2qd72a15511004251017m7f8b23eby7b80047b4187e60b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201004252022.30509.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Sunday 25 April 2010 19:17:08 Ethan Schoonover wrote:
> My impression of Google Analytics has been very positive from both a
> utility and privacy perspective.
>
> See the recent opt-out announcement, for instance:
> 
http://analytics.blogspot.com/2010/03/more-choice-for-users-browser-based-opt.html

I would usually leave it to Aahz to voice objections about Google, but it's a 
matter of control as well as privacy. But with regard to privacy, the mere 
promise of "opt out" (plus comments from people who feel that this is a bad 
thing because they want to know as much as possible about everyone) does not 
make privacy concerns disappear. Indeed, thanks to the antics of a certain 
large telecommunications corporation in the United Kingdom, together with a 
notorious "Internet advertising" company, the notion of opting out with 
regard to user/audience monitoring and the provision of advertising, the 
latter being the motivation for Google's interest in this area, has been 
subject to a lot of scrutiny and unfavourable attention.

Paul

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 20:26:56 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:26:56 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <201004252022.30509.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>	<q2qd72a15511004251017m7f8b23eby7b80047b4187e60b@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004252022.30509.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4BD48970.5040103@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 19:22, Paul Boddie wrote:
> On Sunday 25 April 2010 19:17:08 Ethan Schoonover wrote:
>    
>> My impression of Google Analytics has been very positive from both a
>> utility and privacy perspective.
>>
>> See the recent opt-out announcement, for instance:
>>
>>      
> http://analytics.blogspot.com/2010/03/more-choice-for-users-browser-based-opt.html
>
> I would usually leave it to Aahz to voice objections about Google, but it's a
> matter of control as well as privacy. But with regard to privacy, the mere
> promise of "opt out" (plus comments from people who feel that this is a bad
> thing because they want to know as much as possible about everyone) does not
> make privacy concerns disappear.

Right - but I *still* haven't heard a rational explanation of why there 
are privacy concerns with using google analytics. Plus if people really 
are *that* concerned (what proportion of our userbase is this likely to 
be?) then there are simple solutions for them to block analytics in 
their browser without having to do anything special for python.org.

In other words I think using google analytics for Python.org would be 
fine *if* we wanted that level of detail (if no-one is going to use the 
information then it isn't worth it) - so long as it doesn't impact page 
load time (which I believe to be the case now).

If google analytics is the *right* technical solution for a problem then 
we should use it.

All the best,

Michael Foord

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From ctrachte at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 21:18:11 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:18:11 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/25/10, skip at pobox.com <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>     amk> Here's an updated draft (at the same URL -- hit Shift-Reload if
>     amk> necessary):
>
>     amk> http://www.amk.ca/files/python/world.html
>
>     amk> It adds 'Non-English Resources' on the left-hand side.

Andrew, thanks a ton, again.

>
> I'd put that on the right and get rid of it from the left.  Replace the GSoC
> graphic with it.

I am of the same mind as Skip, but there seems to be a consensus for
the left hand side.  I'm OK with it either way regardless of my
personal preference.

>
> An interesting exercise might be to implement a bit of JavaScript which
> rotates the phrase "Non-English Resources" among several (four to six?)
> languages: German, French, Chinese, Spanish, etc.  The rotation need not
> reflect the location of the cursor.  Movement by a few pixels within the map
> would rotate to the next translation.

This sounds cool, but I can't make it happen right now.  It is always
something we can augment with whatever gets implemented later, right?

>
> Skip
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 22:06:04 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:06:04 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>

> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.  

-1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
JavaScript, even more information gets collected.

Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
necessity). This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).

> I'd prefer to just find a better logfile analysis.

Can you define "better"?

There are tons of tools out there; choice depends on the problem you are
trying to solve.

Regards,
Martin

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 22:09:19 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:09:19 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de>


> I'm not aware of any genuine privacy concerns raised by the use of
> google analytics. 

Ok, so let me make you aware, then :-) I'm fundamentally opposed. Giving
users the choice of opting out is insufficient - if collecting data is
acceptable at all, users have to opt in.

The problem is ultimately trust, and I don't trust Google not to abuse
the data they collect. In principle, they could do much more powerful
analysis for themselves, correlating accesses of a single user across
multiple sites. Google Analytics *is* evil.

Regards,
Martin

From p at state-of-mind.de  Sun Apr 25 22:15:28 2010
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:15:28 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] webmaster@ vs pydotorg-www@
In-Reply-To: <t2sd34314101004250659hda737c9cy1cb72225ab53ecec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2ud34314101004250550va89ac67ewc150b3301751155d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425131657.GA11602@panix.com>
	<t2sd34314101004250659hda737c9cy1cb72225ab53ecec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100425201528.GB9986@state-of-mind.de>

* anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Now that we have some important people securely locked in 'pydotorg',
> >> can anybody remind the status quo of 'webmaster at python.org'?
> >>
> >> My original idea assumed that we have public list for community
> >> collaboration that is a direct channel for any feedback from the
> >> website. Now all feedback goes into webmaster at python.org ?I was going
> >> to rewrite feedback email on
> >> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets and maybe
> >> in some other places, but thought it might be a better idea to just
> >> redirect it here.
> >
> > You may change the wiki, but many people will still assume that
> > webmaster@ is a primary mechanism for contacting the website; webmaster@
> > will NOT redirect to pydotorg-www in case someone sends private or
> > sensitive information. ?If you do make that change, make very clear that
> > pydotorg-www is a PUBLIC list with a PUBLIC ARCHIVE.
> 
> Where does webmaster@ redirect then? pydotorg@ ?

webmaster@ is a distribution list. It currently has 12 recipients.

p at rick


-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563


From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:18:06 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:18:06 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD4A37E.9060106@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:06, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
>> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
>> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
>> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
>> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.
>>      
> -1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
> need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
> JavaScript, even more information gets collected.
>    

Without Javascript it is very difficult to accurately track users (bots 
with browser like user agents get counted - in my experience this 
outnumbers by an order of magnitude the number of users with Javascript 
turned off). There is also a lot of information that can't be collected 
without javascript - whether or not we *want* that information is a 
different matter (and in fact the proper reason for us to evaluate 
google analytics on).

> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
> necessity).

This is irrelevant to Python.org though.

All the best,

Michael

> This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
> not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).
>
>    
>> I'd prefer to just find a better logfile analysis.
>>      
> Can you define "better"?
>
> There are tons of tools out there; choice depends on the problem you are
> trying to solve.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:19:16 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:19:16 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org> <4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD4A3C4.10003@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:09, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>    
>> I'm not aware of any genuine privacy concerns raised by the use of
>> google analytics.
>>      
> Ok, so let me make you aware, then :-) I'm fundamentally opposed. Giving
> users the choice of opting out is insufficient - if collecting data is
> acceptable at all, users have to opt in.
>
> The problem is ultimately trust, and I don't trust Google not to abuse
> the data they collect. In principle, they could do much more powerful
> analysis for themselves, correlating accesses of a single user across
> multiple sites.

Right - so paranoia rather than a rational argument.

> Google Analytics *is* evil.
>    

This is FUD.

All the best,

Michael

> Regards,
> Martin
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:19:08 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:19:08 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 22:06, schrieb "Martin v. L?wis":
>> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
>> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
>> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
>> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
>> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.  
> 
> -1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
> need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
> JavaScript, even more information gets collected.
> 
> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
> necessity). This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
> not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).

I also don't really see the need to put something in every python.org page
when the webserver collects enough data just fine.  No matter how little, it
will slow down the user's browser.  In any case, do we *really* need the
"advanced" stats that Google Analytics is offering?  (Remember, we aren't
trying to sell something.)  If Google collects more data than the webserver
would, do we want to collect and deliver that?

If server-side tools work just fine for our needs: even if they don't produce
graphs as pretty as Google's, what does it matter?

Georg
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:22:26 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:22:26 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A482.8000405@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:19, Georg Brandl wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 25.04.2010 22:06, schrieb "Martin v. L?wis":
>    
>>> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
>>> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
>>> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
>>> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
>>> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.
>>>        
>> -1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
>> need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
>> JavaScript, even more information gets collected.
>>
>> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
>> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
>> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
>> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
>> necessity). This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
>> not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).
>>      
> I also don't really see the need to put something in every python.org page
> when the webserver collects enough data just fine.  No matter how little, it
> will slow down the user's browser.  In any case, do we *really* need the
> "advanced" stats that Google Analytics is offering?  (Remember, we aren't
> trying to sell something.)  If Google collects more data than the webserver
> would, do we want to collect and deliver that?
>
> If server-side tools work just fine for our needs: even if they don't produce
> graphs as pretty as Google's, what does it matter?
>    

If we don't need it, and I have no axe to grind on that score, then 
fine. If implemented correctly in the source then it shouldn't slow down 
rendering of page contents at all - however what information about our 
visitors and how they use the site is probably something for the site 
plan to determine.

Whatever technology best meets our need should be used - ultimately to 
be determined by the PSF board. This decision certainly shouldn't be 
held hostage by individual opinions.

All the best,

Michael

> Georg
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)
>
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> WtAAoIFtRu1gVamxOII4zuA/vb6AWMiB
> =55GC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:25:18 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:25:18 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:19, Georg Brandl wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 25.04.2010 22:06, schrieb "Martin v. L?wis":
>    
>>> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
>>> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
>>> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
>>> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
>>> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.
>>>        
>> -1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
>> need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
>> JavaScript, even more information gets collected.
>>
>> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
>> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
>> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
>> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
>> necessity). This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
>> not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).
>>      
> I also don't really see the need to put something in every python.org page
> when the webserver collects enough data just fine.

The extra information that google analytics (or a similar service) gives 
you is the ability to track how visitors use the site (what path they 
take - which pages they tend to exit the site on, and so on). If we 
really wanted to track how "user friendly" certain parts of our site are 
then it could be extremely useful, and not information we could *easily* 
get from the server logs alone.

I doubt we have anyone wanting to use this information though.

All the best,

Michael

>   No matter how little, it
> will slow down the user's browser.  In any case, do we *really* need the
> "advanced" stats that Google Analytics is offering?  (Remember, we aren't
> trying to sell something.)  If Google collects more data than the webserver
> would, do we want to collect and deliver that?
>
> If server-side tools work just fine for our needs: even if they don't produce
> graphs as pretty as Google's, what does it matter?
>
> Georg
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkvUo7wACgkQN9GcIYhpnLDNJACeKZjlO9MmUOMBJkaSMukkFfzX
> WtAAoIFtRu1gVamxOII4zuA/vb6AWMiB
> =55GC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 22:33:44 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:33:44 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A37E.9060106@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de> <4BD4A37E.9060106@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A728.1080906@v.loewis.de>

>> -1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
>> need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
>> JavaScript, even more information gets collected.
>>    
> 
> Without Javascript it is very difficult to accurately track users

You misunderstood, I think. I was not claiming that it is in principle
possible to do tracking without JavaScript, but that Google Analytics
*actually* works without users having Javascript enabled - it may be
difficult, but Google Analytics is also very advanced.

>> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
>> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
>> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
>> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
>> necessity).
> 
> This is irrelevant to Python.org though.

It is relevant. There is a reasoning behind these laws, and that applies
to python.org as well.

Regards,
Martin

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 22:35:49 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:35:49 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A3C4.10003@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org> <4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3C4.10003@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A7A5.4070708@v.loewis.de>

>> The problem is ultimately trust, and I don't trust Google not to abuse
>> the data they collect. In principle, they could do much more powerful
>> analysis for themselves, correlating accesses of a single user across
>> multiple sites.
> 
> Right - so paranoia rather than a rational argument.

It also is a rational argument. How do you know Google does *not* abuse
the data? How many users will dislike python.org because of its use of
Google analytics, because of these wide spread concerns?

Regards,
Martin

From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:35:55 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:35:55 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 22:25, schrieb Michael Foord:
>>>> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
>>>> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
>>>> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
>>>> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
>>>> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.
>>>>        
>>> -1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
>>> need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
>>> JavaScript, even more information gets collected.
>>>
>>> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
>>> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
>>> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
>>> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
>>> necessity). This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
>>> not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).
>>>      
>> I also don't really see the need to put something in every python.org page
>> when the webserver collects enough data just fine.
>>
> The extra information that google analytics (or a similar service) gives 
> you is the ability to track how visitors use the site (what path they 
> take - which pages they tend to exit the site on, and so on). If we 
> really wanted to track how "user friendly" certain parts of our site are 
> then it could be extremely useful, and not information we could *easily* 
> get from the server logs alone.

Why?  Assuming not too much IP duplication, this should be easy to extract
through the HTTP referer, or even through tracking requests of a single IP.
Or am I missing something?

> I doubt we have anyone wanting to use this information though.

Exactly.

Georg
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=Qfhv
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 22:38:22 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:38:22 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A83E.8030701@v.loewis.de>

>> The extra information that google analytics (or a similar service) gives
>> you is the ability to track how visitors use the site (what path they
>> take - which pages they tend to exit the site on, and so on). If we
>> really wanted to track how "user friendly" certain parts of our site are
>> then it could be extremely useful, and not information we could *easily*
>> get from the server logs alone.

Why not? One IP address == one user, for all practical purposes?

Regards,
Martin

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:38:25 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:38:25 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
	<4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A841.303@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:35, Georg Brandl wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 25.04.2010 22:25, schrieb Michael Foord:
>    
>>>>> At work I went to a recent talk on Google Analytics, which provides an
>>>>> impressive number of analyses to track where people are coming from,
>>>>> what queries they're using, how long they stay on average, etc.  But
>>>>> visitors are only recorded if their browser supports JavaScript, and
>>>>> dumping that information into Google raises privacy concerns.
>>>>>
>>>>>            
>>>> -1 on Google Analytics, for the privacy reasons. I don't believe you
>>>> need JavaScript in the browser for it to do tracking, but with
>>>> JavaScript, even more information gets collected.
>>>>
>>>> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
>>>> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
>>>> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
>>>> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
>>>> necessity). This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
>>>> not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> I also don't really see the need to put something in every python.org page
>>> when the webserver collects enough data just fine.
>>>
>>>        
>> The extra information that google analytics (or a similar service) gives
>> you is the ability to track how visitors use the site (what path they
>> take - which pages they tend to exit the site on, and so on). If we
>> really wanted to track how "user friendly" certain parts of our site are
>> then it could be extremely useful, and not information we could *easily*
>> get from the server logs alone.
>>      
> Why?  Assuming not too much IP duplication, this should be easy to extract
> through the HTTP referer, or even through tracking requests of a single IP.
> Or am I missing something?
>
>    

Well, first you have to rewrite the code (and some kind of UI even if 
through the command line) that is already in analytics... So yes 
possible in theory, not likely in practise (unless someone does write an 
advanced log file analyser in Python).

>> I doubt we have anyone wanting to use this information though.
>>      
> Exactly.
>
>    
Much more to the point.

Michael

> Georg
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)
>
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> =Qfhv
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

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From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:38:37 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:38:37 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A482.8000405@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A482.8000405@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A84D.8010309@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 22:22, schrieb Michael Foord:

>>> Here in Germany, it is the law that users have to opt in to have
>>> personal data being collected, and IP addresses are considered personal
>>> information. So strictly speaking, even a plain webserver log without
>>> user consent is against the law (the one exception being operational
>>> necessity). This isn't really being followed in practice, but we should
>>> not give personal data to anybody else (aggregated data is fine).
>>>      
>> I also don't really see the need to put something in every python.org page
>> when the webserver collects enough data just fine.  No matter how little, it
>> will slow down the user's browser.  In any case, do we *really* need the
>> "advanced" stats that Google Analytics is offering?  (Remember, we aren't
>> trying to sell something.)  If Google collects more data than the webserver
>> would, do we want to collect and deliver that?
>> 
>> If server-side tools work just fine for our needs: even if they don't produce
>> graphs as pretty as Google's, what does it matter?
>>    
>> 
> If we don't need it, and I have no axe to grind on that score, then 
> fine. If implemented correctly in the source then it shouldn't slow down 
> rendering of page contents at all - however what information about our 
> visitors and how they use the site is probably something for the site 
> plan to determine.

I realize this is nitpicking, but anything that we put into a page in
addition to the actual contents will consume *something*, be it rendering
time, bandwidth, or CPU cycles.  I concede that this is completely
irrelevant for most users.

> Whatever technology best meets our need should be used - ultimately to 
> be determined by the PSF board. This decision certainly shouldn't be 
> held hostage by individual opinions.

It should however still be possible to state one's opinion without being
accused of spreading FUD.

Georg
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From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:43:38 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:43:38 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A84D.8010309@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A482.8000405@python.org>
	<4BD4A84D.8010309@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A97A.6070506@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:38, Georg Brandl wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> [...]
>    
>> Whatever technology best meets our need should be used - ultimately to
>> be determined by the PSF board. This decision certainly shouldn't be
>> held hostage by individual opinions.
>>      
> It should however still be possible to state one's opinion without being
> accused of spreading FUD.
>    

And if my opinion is that certain lines of thinking are FUD and without 
merit should I not be allowed to express that opinion?

Michael

> Georg
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> v+gAnjlvE/LzJseV7MvMvdhwekM8/YXW
> =2GSk
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From georg at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:43:41 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:43:41 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A841.303@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
	<4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org> <4BD4A841.303@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4A97D.6030307@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 25.04.2010 22:38, schrieb Michael Foord:

>>> The extra information that google analytics (or a similar service) gives
>>> you is the ability to track how visitors use the site (what path they
>>> take - which pages they tend to exit the site on, and so on). If we
>>> really wanted to track how "user friendly" certain parts of our site are
>>> then it could be extremely useful, and not information we could *easily*
>>> get from the server logs alone.
>>>      
>> Why?  Assuming not too much IP duplication, this should be easy to extract
>> through the HTTP referer, or even through tracking requests of a single IP.
>> Or am I missing something?
>> 
>>    
>> 
> Well, first you have to rewrite the code (and some kind of UI even if 
> through the command line) that is already in analytics... So yes 
> possible in theory, not likely in practise (unless someone does write an 
> advanced log file analyser in Python).

Sounds like a fun project.  I'd do it if I had a few weeks of holidays
coming up.  Well, instead, I'll visit the U.S. ;)

Georg
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From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:49:07 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:49:07 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A7A5.4070708@v.loewis.de>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org> <4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3C4.10003@python.org> <4BD4A7A5.4070708@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BD4AAC3.8090501@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:35, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>>> The problem is ultimately trust, and I don't trust Google not to abuse
>>> the data they collect. In principle, they could do much more powerful
>>> analysis for themselves, correlating accesses of a single user across
>>> multiple sites.
>>>        
>> Right - so paranoia rather than a rational argument.
>>      
> It also is a rational argument. How do you know Google does *not* abuse
> the data? How many users will dislike python.org because of its use of
> Google analytics, because of these wide spread concerns?
>    

I mean nothing personal by this debate - as I'm sure Martin is aware. We 
merely have a difference of opinion. I would still hold that if you 
contend that the use of google's services are subject to "wide spread 
concerns", and will put off a large number of potential users who 
haven't already blocked google's services, then the balance of proof is 
on those claiming this.

All the best,

Michael Foord



> Regards,
> Martin
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 22:53:20 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:53:20 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4AAC3.8090501@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
	<4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de>	<4BD4A3C4.10003@python.org>
	<4BD4A7A5.4070708@v.loewis.de> <4BD4AAC3.8090501@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4ABC0.2060407@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 21:49, Michael Foord wrote:
> On 25/04/2010 21:35, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>>>> The problem is ultimately trust, and I don't trust Google not to abuse
>>>> the data they collect. In principle, they could do much more powerful
>>>> analysis for themselves, correlating accesses of a single user across
>>>> multiple sites.
>>> Right - so paranoia rather than a rational argument.
>> It also is a rational argument. How do you know Google does *not* abuse
>> the data? How many users will dislike python.org because of its use of
>> Google analytics, because of these wide spread concerns?
>
> I mean nothing personal by this debate - as I'm sure Martin is aware. 
> We merely have a difference of opinion. I would still hold that if you 
> contend that the use of google's services are subject to "wide spread 
> concerns", and will put off a large number of potential users who 
> haven't already blocked google's services, then the balance of proof 
> is on those claiming this.

And it is something of a moot debate anyway as we aren't *actually* 
considering using this service currently anyway - so lets drop it until 
such time as this debate *may* become necessary.

Michael

>
> All the best,
>
> Michael Foord
>
>
>
>> Regards,
>> Martin
>
>


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 22:55:23 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:55:23 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A97D.6030307@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
	<4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org> <4BD4A841.303@python.org>
	<4BD4A97D.6030307@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4AC3B.2060506@v.loewis.de>

>> Well, first you have to rewrite the code (and some kind of UI even if
>> through the command line) that is already in analytics... So yes
>> possible in theory, not likely in practise (unless someone does write an
>> advanced log file analyser in Python).
> 
> Sounds like a fun project.  I'd do it if I had a few weeks of holidays
> coming up.  Well, instead, I'll visit the U.S. ;)

Actually, awstats already reports entry and exit pages.

Regards,
Martin

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 22:57:42 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:57:42 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4AAC3.8090501@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org> <4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3C4.10003@python.org> <4BD4A7A5.4070708@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4AAC3.8090501@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4ACC6.7010204@v.loewis.de>

> I mean nothing personal by this debate - as I'm sure Martin is aware. We
> merely have a difference of opinion. I would still hold that if you
> contend that the use of google's services are subject to "wide spread
> concerns", and will put off a large number of potential users who
> haven't already blocked google's services, then the balance of proof is
> on those claiming this.

The point is that in this specific service, the user is typically
unaware that they use it. This is unlike any of the other Google
services (like Gmail): I explicitly make a choice to use them. For
Google Analytics, I be "using" them without even knowing they exist.

Regards,
Martin

From es at ethanschoonover.com  Sun Apr 25 23:03:17 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:03:17 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4ACC6.7010204@v.loewis.de>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org> 
	<4BD4A16F.7060806@v.loewis.de> <4BD4A3C4.10003@python.org> 
	<4BD4A7A5.4070708@v.loewis.de> <4BD4AAC3.8090501@python.org> 
	<4BD4ACC6.7010204@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <n2qd72a15511004251403t39f376d2of9443f8dca78af6d@mail.gmail.com>

Privacy is always a hot button issue and I'm seeing a lot of valid
points here. As an EFF/EPIC supporter, I am certainly a privacy
advocate though I also believe we can find good, modern metrics
solutions while still respecting privacy (baby/bathwater).

I would thus propose that due to the importance of this issue we add
it to Richard's site development plan.

Ideally, a page at python.org/privacy could detail the site privacy
policy and provide useful pointers to other sites related to online
privacy (an issue complex enough I doubt Python.org would be the best
clearing house of information on it).

I would additionally recommend that any privacy policy proposal
submitted to the PSF as part of the python.org project 2010 also
factor in the many ways that Python is increasingly represented in
social media (Facebook, Twitter?). While it may at first seems outside
the ken of python.org, I think it's good to at least have some opinion
about engagement with these types of sites and what, if any (or no),
interaction takes place between the .org and other online python
communities.

Thus, an addendum to Richard's plan in the Project Goals section along
the lines of:

------

Privacy
*******

Develop a working set of privacy guidelines that would apply to the
Python.org website. Clarify internal Python.org privacy
stance/policies and how these policies translate to issues such as
site metrics collection on python.org. Establish provisional stance on
how privacy policies relate (if at all) to social media communities
related to Python. Develop links or simple guidelines for users that
wish to increase their online privacy settings.

------

Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Apr 25 23:11:44 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:11:44 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4A83E.8030701@v.loewis.de>
References: <20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de> <4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>
	<4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org> <4BD4A83E.8030701@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <20100425211144.GA17452@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>
> Why not? One IP address == one user, for all practical purposes?

Not with NAT.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Apr 25 23:18:37 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:18:37 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
	<201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100425211837.GB17452@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>
> I haven't seen a rational explanation for why google analytics is a  
> privacy concern.

Well, I don't know anything specific about Google Analytics, nor do I
believe that there's any reason to spend time investigating it, because
of the following three points:

* Google's giant mis-step with Buzz

* https://panopticlick.eff.org/

* Netflix disaggregation of "anonymous" data

>From my POV, the onus is on anyone proposing Google to demonstrate that
using Google is *not* a privacy concern.  If these three points are not
something you've heard of before, I think you are not sufficiently
informed about privacy to have an opinion on the subject.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From mfoord at python.org  Sun Apr 25 23:26:14 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:26:14 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20100425211837.GB17452@panix.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>	<201004251814.03577.paul@boddie.org.uk>	<4BD46D9F.1050100@python.org>
	<20100425211837.GB17452@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BD4B376.5080404@python.org>

On 25/04/2010 22:18, Aahz wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> I haven't seen a rational explanation for why google analytics is a
>> privacy concern.
>>      
> Well, I don't know anything specific about Google Analytics, nor do I
> believe that there's any reason to spend time investigating it, because
> of the following three points:
>
> * Google's giant mis-step with Buzz
>    

Something I think was blown hugely out of proportion - but yes, a 
mistake google is unlikely to repeat!

> * https://panopticlick.eff.org/
>    
A theoretical demonstration of how individual users can be tracked (not 
something known to be used) - if what we want is analytics based on 
tracking users then it isn't prima-facie a privacy concern unless 
tracking how users access python.org is itself a privacy concern.

> * Netflix disaggregation of "anonymous" data
>
>    
Well - I think yahoo's is much more relevant (and applies to the 
*disclosure* of anonymous data not the collection of it) - with netflix 
a very interesting technical problem was *stopped* because of privacy 
concerns around the disclosure of data.

> > From my POV, the onus is on anyone proposing Google to demonstrate that
> using Google is *not* a privacy concern.  If these three points are not
> something you've heard of before, I think you are not sufficiently
> informed about privacy to have an opinion on the subject.
>    
Well, let's debate this if and when the services under discussion 
actually become something we want / need, which doesn't seem to be the 
case now.

All the best,

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Apr 25 23:32:28 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 23:32:28 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20100425211144.GA17452@panix.com>
References: <20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>	<4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
	<4BD4A83E.8030701@v.loewis.de> <20100425211144.GA17452@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BD4B4EC.7000501@v.loewis.de>

Aahz wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>> Why not? One IP address == one user, for all practical purposes?
> 
> Not with NAT.

In practice, even with NAT. Behind most NAT boxes, there is only one
user surfing to python.org at any point in time. I fully understand that
there may be counter-examples.

Regards,
Martin


From mats at wichmann.us  Mon Apr 26 01:43:34 2010
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:43:34 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<l2yd34314101004250029za9ca0351x78654f7929394872@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD44B8E.2010106@python.org>
Message-ID: <4BD4D3A6.8090508@wichmann.us>

On 04/25/2010 08:02 AM, Michael Foord wrote:

> I'm not aware of any genuine privacy concerns raised by the use of
> google analytics. If anyone wants to prevent their browsing being
> recorded by google analytics (or other similar services) they will
> already block it or have switched off javascript altogether.

The fact that Google has their fingers in everything you do is
plenty of reason for some people.  My concern is only around the
performance issue.  You can't reasonably turn off javascript any
more, too much stuff doesn't work; indeed some javascript is
truly useful, like the Firefox AdBlock plugin. I'm experimenting
with blocking the download of the file analytics uses by messing
with the name resolution, which I guess is the most suggested
method.  When you have  a poor connection, the extra set of round
trips to first look up google-analytics.com, then get the bit of
javascript, then have it do its work is not only noticable,
but significant. Especially since it seems things to do with
Google seem to suffer an extra delay both here at home and
especially at an internet cafe I visit when I can't stand the
dismal performance of having to depend on the satellite link.
Many's the time I sit looking at a blank browser window for many
seconds while the statusbar shows me it's resolving
google-analytics.  I know my case is both unusual and anecdotal,
but I really suggest not using this service unless we have a
really compelling reason - some very specific stuff we're looking
to mine.  Using a bounded capture period to understand how the
website is being used, to drive a redesign/improvement is a good
reason. Just wanting the data because it's cool to have is not...


From p at state-of-mind.de  Mon Apr 26 07:08:10 2010
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 07:08:10 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD4AC3B.2060506@v.loewis.de>
References: <4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>
	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de> <4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>
	<4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org> <4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org>
	<4BD4A841.303@python.org> <4BD4A97D.6030307@python.org>
	<4BD4AC3B.2060506@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <20100426050810.GA2022@state-of-mind.de>

* "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>:
> >> Well, first you have to rewrite the code (and some kind of UI even if
> >> through the command line) that is already in analytics... So yes
> >> possible in theory, not likely in practise (unless someone does write an
> >> advanced log file analyser in Python).

Steve Mcinterney maintains a fork from webalizer called awffull that can do
more sophisticated web analysis and Steve works for Ubuntu. Barry knows him. I
am quite confident Steve would sit down and add functionality if we asked him.
I've been working with him on it for some time.

> > Sounds like a fun project.  I'd do it if I had a few weeks of holidays
> > coming up.  Well, instead, I'll visit the U.S. ;)
> 
> Actually, awstats already reports entry and exit pages.

At our company we do not want to use external providers to analyse private
date either. We are constantly looking for ways and means to leave the data
with the website owners.

A project that aims to do what Google Analytics does is PIWIK. It's not
version 1 yet and its written in PHP, but you might want to give it a look at
http://piwik.org/.

p at rick

-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563


From steve at holdenweb.com  Mon Apr 26 12:57:06 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:57:06 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20100426050810.GA2022@state-of-mind.de>
References: <4BD3F597.2070405@python.org>	<s2xd34314101004250253m14d33203xb0e793d3619d0515@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425135659.GA8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org>	<4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
	<4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org>	<4BD4A841.303@python.org>
	<4BD4A97D.6030307@python.org>	<4BD4AC3B.2060506@v.loewis.de>
	<20100426050810.GA2022@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <4BD57182.1060303@holdenweb.com>

Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
> * "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>:
>>>> Well, first you have to rewrite the code (and some kind of UI even if
>>>> through the command line) that is already in analytics... So yes
>>>> possible in theory, not likely in practise (unless someone does write an
>>>> advanced log file analyser in Python).
> 
> Steve Mcinterney maintains a fork from webalizer called awffull that can do
> more sophisticated web analysis and Steve works for Ubuntu. Barry knows him. I
> am quite confident Steve would sit down and add functionality if we asked him.
> I've been working with him on it for some time.
> 
>>> Sounds like a fun project.  I'd do it if I had a few weeks of holidays
>>> coming up.  Well, instead, I'll visit the U.S. ;)
>> Actually, awstats already reports entry and exit pages.
> 
> At our company we do not want to use external providers to analyse private
> date either. We are constantly looking for ways and means to leave the data
> with the website owners.
> 
> A project that aims to do what Google Analytics does is PIWIK. It's not
> version 1 yet and its written in PHP, but you might want to give it a look at
> http://piwik.org/.
> 
Once again, let's not get into talking technologies until we've defined
the problem ...

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From rich at richleland.com  Mon Apr 26 15:06:59 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:06:59 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] www.python.org: types of changes
In-Reply-To: <20100423204229.GA12868@panix.com>
References: <20100423204229.GA12868@panix.com>
Message-ID: <i2z8e236d371004260606mb44bf384zce76efb8867f24f4@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your insight Aahz - it's good to have a breakdown of exactly what
content and appearance mean. Adding to the plan...

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> Rich's project goals at
> http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/goals.html
> includes the following:
>
> Agility
>
>   Making modifications to the content of the site currently requires a
>   build of static files and a level of technical expertise. The site
>   content and appearance need to be easier to update.
>
> My suggestion is that we should be careful about specifying exactly which
> types of updates we're discussing.  I would classify changes this way:
>
> Organization
>
>    The way pages are connected to each other, and the way a visitor
>    perceives sections of the site
>
> Content
>
>    The actual text of the site and downloadable documents
>
> Layout
>
>    Location of content elements on a page (which should have consistency
>    across all pages)
>
> Appearance
>
>    Text formatting and images used to convey organizational cues
>
> Obviously, these are all interrelated, but often one is focusing on only
> one or two aspects of updating the site at any particular time.  Also, I
> generally prioritize these changes in the order that I've listed them
> (with the caveat that making organizational changes is sufficiently
> difficult and controversial that it rarely happens).
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>
> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
> --Bill Harlan
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
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From rich at richleland.com  Mon Apr 26 15:48:56 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:48:56 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <4BD57182.1060303@holdenweb.com>
References: <4BD3F597.2070405@python.org> <4BD4A0AC.3040706@v.loewis.de>
	<4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> <4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org>
	<4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org> <4BD4A841.303@python.org>
	<4BD4A97D.6030307@python.org> <4BD4AC3B.2060506@v.loewis.de>
	<20100426050810.GA2022@state-of-mind.de>
	<4BD57182.1060303@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <z2y8e236d371004260648ob1876bfbm13e3db4d5dde78b5@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed. Given that this topic is of concern and important to users I think
Ethan's recommendation for adding privacy to the goals is worthy:

Privacy
> *******
>
> Develop a working set of privacy guidelines that would apply to the
> Python.org website. Clarify internal Python.org privacy
> stance/policies and how these policies translate to issues such as
> site metrics collection on python.org. Establish provisional stance on
> how privacy policies relate (if at all) to social media communities
> related to Python. Develop links or simple guidelines for users that
> wish to increase their online privacy settings.
>

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com> wrote:

> Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
> > * "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>:
> >>>> Well, first you have to rewrite the code (and some kind of UI even if
> >>>> through the command line) that is already in analytics... So yes
> >>>> possible in theory, not likely in practise (unless someone does write
> an
> >>>> advanced log file analyser in Python).
> >
> > Steve Mcinterney maintains a fork from webalizer called awffull that can
> do
> > more sophisticated web analysis and Steve works for Ubuntu. Barry knows
> him. I
> > am quite confident Steve would sit down and add functionality if we asked
> him.
> > I've been working with him on it for some time.
> >
> >>> Sounds like a fun project.  I'd do it if I had a few weeks of holidays
> >>> coming up.  Well, instead, I'll visit the U.S. ;)
> >> Actually, awstats already reports entry and exit pages.
> >
> > At our company we do not want to use external providers to analyse
> private
> > date either. We are constantly looking for ways and means to leave the
> data
> > with the website owners.
> >
> > A project that aims to do what Google Analytics does is PIWIK. It's not
> > version 1 yet and its written in PHP, but you might want to give it a
> look at
> > http://piwik.org/.
> >
> Once again, let's not get into talking technologies until we've defined
> the problem ...
>
> regards
>  Steve
> --
> Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
> See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
> Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
> UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
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From amk at amk.ca  Mon Apr 26 15:51:22 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:51:22 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] International Symbol - request for addition
In-Reply-To: <y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 01:18:11PM -0600, Carl Trachte wrote:
> > An interesting exercise might be to implement a bit of JavaScript which
> > rotates the phrase "Non-English Resources" among several (four to six?)
> > languages: German, French, Chinese, Spanish, etc.  The rotation need not
> > reflect the location of the cursor.  Movement by a few pixels within the map
> > would rotate to the next translation.
> 
> This sounds cool, but I can't make it happen right now.  It is always
> something we can augment with whatever gets implemented later, right?

(cc'ing to psf-volunteers; this is a pydotorg-www thread about the new
non-English resources link and world-map graphic; you can see it on
http://www.python.org/dev/, for example.  Does someone want to
volunteer to write the necessary JavaScript function?)

Certainly it could be added later.  If someone wants to assemble the
necessary list of translations and write the JavaScript, I can
certainly add it.  Also, anchors could be added to the wiki page so
that the German text link could go straight to the German section with 
/moin/Languages#de or whatever.

--amk

From es at ethanschoonover.com  Mon Apr 26 19:39:19 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:39:19 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Analytics
In-Reply-To: <z2y8e236d371004260648ob1876bfbm13e3db4d5dde78b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BD3F597.2070405@python.org> <4BD4A3BC.5040509@python.org> 
	<4BD4A52E.3080606@python.org> <4BD4A7AB.1090606@python.org> 
	<4BD4A841.303@python.org> <4BD4A97D.6030307@python.org>
	<4BD4AC3B.2060506@v.loewis.de> 
	<20100426050810.GA2022@state-of-mind.de>
	<4BD57182.1060303@holdenweb.com> 
	<z2y8e236d371004260648ob1876bfbm13e3db4d5dde78b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p2od72a15511004261039m41b256f8taa8765527b61b6ec@mail.gmail.com>

That first pass may be too wordy (I went back and looked at your
rather more pithy, 1/2 sentence goals after writing that). I'll look
at redrafting it.

Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com




On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 06:48, Richard Leland <rich at richleland.com> wrote:
> Agreed. Given that this topic is of concern and important to users I think
> Ethan's recommendation for adding privacy to the goals is worthy:
>>
>> Privacy
>> *******
>>
>> Develop a working set of privacy guidelines that would apply to the
>> Python.org website. Clarify internal Python.org privacy
>> stance/policies and how these policies translate to issues such as
>> site metrics collection on?python.org. Establish provisional stance on
>> how privacy policies relate (if at all) to social media communities
>> related to Python. Develop links or simple guidelines for users that
>> wish to increase their online privacy settings.
>
> - Rich
> Richard Leland
> rich at richleland.com
> 240-242-7424
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>
>> Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
>> > * "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>:
>> >>>> Well, first you have to rewrite the code (and some kind of UI even if
>> >>>> through the command line) that is already in analytics... So yes
>> >>>> possible in theory, not likely in practise (unless someone does write
>> >>>> an
>> >>>> advanced log file analyser in Python).
>> >
>> > Steve Mcinterney maintains a fork from webalizer called awffull that can
>> > do
>> > more sophisticated web analysis and Steve works for Ubuntu. Barry knows
>> > him. I
>> > am quite confident Steve would sit down and add functionality if we
>> > asked him.
>> > I've been working with him on it for some time.
>> >
>> >>> Sounds like a fun project. ?I'd do it if I had a few weeks of holidays
>> >>> coming up. ?Well, instead, I'll visit the U.S. ;)
>> >> Actually, awstats already reports entry and exit pages.
>> >
>> > At our company we do not want to use external providers to analyse
>> > private
>> > date either. We are constantly looking for ways and means to leave the
>> > data
>> > with the website owners.
>> >
>> > A project that aims to do what Google Analytics does is PIWIK. It's not
>> > version 1 yet and its written in PHP, but you might want to give it a
>> > look at
>> > http://piwik.org/.
>> >
>> Once again, let's not get into talking technologies until we've defined
>> the problem ...
>>
>> regards
>> ?Steve
>> --
>> Steve Holden ? ? ? ? ? +1 571 484 6266 ? +1 800 494 3119
>> See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010 ?http://pycon.blip.tv/
>> Holden Web LLC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.holdenweb.com/
>> UPCOMING EVENTS: ? ? ? ?http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>

From amk at amk.ca  Mon Apr 26 20:05:54 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:05:54 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] project plan (python.org and navigation)
In-Reply-To: <201004251808.33616.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <g2k8e236d371004190628t56da83b1l41255a4500d7f2d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2od34314101004250348z3ea8029dr18ee501cfdc8c02d@mail.gmail.com>
	<j2w4335d2c41004250536ya9e05ce5la6d468df5441fbee@mail.gmail.com>
	<201004251808.33616.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100426180554.GA14714@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 06:08:33PM +0200, Paul Boddie wrote:
> gathering together again. Certainly, any discussions about the changes as 
> they happened are important in order to review what was done, what people 
> didn't like, what people probably still don't like, and to avoid making any 
> similar mistakes again.

I disagree about the importance of history, because IMHO it makes us
prone to the sunk-cost fallacy.  "Someone put a lot of effort into
this document/script/module, so we need to keep it" -- but what really
matters is whether the document/whatever is still relevant in the future.

I could summarize the python.org history (chronology may be slightly off):

* first web site in early 90s -- people had to log in to a particular
  machine at CNRI to edit the HTML files.

* ht2html script written by Barry Warsaw; would wrap page content in
  a stock template.  (Sound familiar?)

* CVS repository introduced; we could commit a change on our desktop
  machine and a hook would magically make it appear on the live
  server.  Sharp!

* A few generations of different templating styles (
  e.g. the dashed-line graphic w/ different colors for different sections,
  the blue sidebars (http://www6.uniovi.es/python/Mirrors.html).

* Site moved from a CNRI server to XS4ALL's donated hosting.

* Tim Parkin & Pollenation's redesign, which introduced XHTML
  compliance and validity, and the Pyramid script; ht2html went away.

* Pyramid rewritten by me to rebuild fewer pages when you only edited
  one thing.

And that's where we are.  But I don't know if any of that matters at
all; it explains past decisions, but those decisions were made in a
different world.

--amk


From grubert at users.sourceforge.net  Mon Apr 26 20:47:32 2010
From: grubert at users.sourceforge.net (grubert at users.sourceforge.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:47:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
 for addition
In-Reply-To: <20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>

this way (i am javascript ignorant)

<html>
<head>
<script type="text/javascript">
     var lang_idx = 0;
     var Languages = new Array(
                 "Afrikaans", "Ahmara", "Algerian"
             );
     function language_rotator( Element ) {
         Element = document.getElementById("lang-img-ref");
         if (Element) {
             lang_idx += 1;
             if (lang_idx >= Languages.length) {
                 lang_idx = 0;
             }
             Element.title = Languages[lang_idx];
             Element.href = 
"http://wiki.python.org/moin/"+Languages[lang_idx]+"Language";
         }
     }
</script></head>
<body>
     <div style="align:center; padding-top: 0.5em; padding-left: 2.5em">
             <a title="non-English" id="lang-img-ref" 
href="http://wiki.python.org/moin/Languages"><img
             id="lang-img" onmousemove="javascript:language_rotator(this);"
           style="align:center"
               width="94" height="46"
           src="http://www.python.org/images/worldmap.jpg" alt="[Python 
resources in languages other than English]" /></a>
     </div>
     </body>
</html>


On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, A.M. Kuchling wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 01:18:11PM -0600, Carl Trachte wrote:
>>> An interesting exercise might be to implement a bit of JavaScript which
>>> rotates the phrase "Non-English Resources" among several (four to six?)
>>> languages: German, French, Chinese, Spanish, etc.  The rotation need not
>>> reflect the location of the cursor.  Movement by a few pixels within the map
>>> would rotate to the next translation.
>>
>> This sounds cool, but I can't make it happen right now.  It is always
>> something we can augment with whatever gets implemented later, right?
>
> (cc'ing to psf-volunteers; this is a pydotorg-www thread about the new
> non-English resources link and world-map graphic; you can see it on
> http://www.python.org/dev/, for example.  Does someone want to
> volunteer to write the necessary JavaScript function?)
>
> Certainly it could be added later.  If someone wants to assemble the
> necessary list of translations and write the JavaScript, I can
> certainly add it.  Also, anchors could be added to the wiki page so
> that the German text link could go straight to the German section with
> /moin/Languages#de or whatever.
>
> --amk
> _______________________________________________
> PSF-Volunteers mailing list
> PSF-Volunteers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-volunteers
>

-- 

From willg at bluesock.org  Mon Apr 26 22:07:00 2010
From: willg at bluesock.org (will kahn-greene)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:07:00 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosytem
In-Reply-To: <l2g549053141004231250w9a9d594i7b1ce738d0ebd516@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>	
	<59046432-100A-4143-B3F0-07C7A5F02EC9@gmail.com>
	<l2g549053141004231250w9a9d594i7b1ce738d0ebd516@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD5F264.2090600@bluesock.org>

On 04/23/2010 03:50 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> http://pycon.blogspot.com/ is a blog for announcements from PyCon(s).
>> http://pycon.blip.tv/ has the PyCon videos.  They also show up
>> at http://python.mirocommunity.org/, but I don't know how that happens.
> 
> python.mirocommunity.org is the effort of Will Kahn-Greene and a few
> other maintainers.  The site snarfs up rss feeds from various sources,
> videos get reviewed for appropriateness and tagging by a handful of
> moderators.   I am one of them, but so far have not done anything.  I
> wouldn't be surprised if Will has done 100% of the work.  I know he
> has indexed some of the PyCon lighting talks, which is fantastic.

Just to clarify this a bit, Python Miro Community finds videos through a
series of video searches that I set up coupled with me going out and
adding conference video (Plone Conference, PyCon, ...) by hand.

The PyCon 2010 video isn't totally up on Python Miro Community, yet.
I've been working with Carl and the PyCon-AV team to get there, but
haven't had time in the last couple of weeks to spend on the site.

So far, Carl and I are the only curators for Python Miro Community.  I'd
be interested in expanding this group and/or getting paid to curate it
(allowing me to spend more time on it).  I haven't had time to really
figure that out, yet.

The site exists because I feel there is a need for a central curated
index for Python-related video.  There's a _huge_ amount of value in the
metadata that gets added to these videos when they're accepted to the
site--that metadata makes it easier to search and navigate video
material to find what you're looking for or even passively consume it.
I talked with Steve Holden about the site before I created it.  I don't
have any idea if anyone is really finding it useful, yet.

Python Miro Community runs on Miro Community which is an AGPL licensed
Django-based system developed by Participatory Culture Foundation.  More
details about Miro Community here:

http://mirocommunity.org/

The Miro Community project will very likely see the benefits of
Universal Subtitles project as well as other projects PCF is working on
with Mozilla, Wikimedia, and other organizations.

PCF kindly hosts Python Miro Community for free.

I hope that covers things.  I also run the GNOME Miro Community and I'm
now a GNOME Foundation member and work with GNOME Marketing to help them
make the most out of the site.

If you have any questions, thoughts, or concerns, let me know.

/will

From amk at amk.ca  Tue Apr 27 04:00:39 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:00:39 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Two problematic pages
Message-ID: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>

There are two pages that I'd like to get rid of, but am dithering about:

* http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle/ claims:

      Unfortunately, new-style classes have not yet been integrated into
      Python's standard documention. Fear not, however; many people have
      worked to provide useful information on creating and using new-style
      classes.

  Is this still true?  Are the resources linked from that page still useful?

* A lot of the ports on http://www.python.org/download/other/ are very
  old.  (2.1, 2.4, even 1.5.2, etc.).  I think most people will just
  search for "Python <OS name>" and not come to python.org to poke
  around.  Can we just drop the page completely?
  
Now that I look at it, http://www.python.org/download/linux/ doesn't
really have a lot of content; maybe it can be deleted, too.

--amk


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Apr 27 04:35:54 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:35:54 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Two problematic pages
In-Reply-To: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <20100427023554.GA1391@panix.com>

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>
> * A lot of the ports on http://www.python.org/download/other/ are very
>   old.  (2.1, 2.4, even 1.5.2, etc.).  I think most people will just
>   search for "Python <OS name>" and not come to python.org to poke
>   around.  Can we just drop the page completely?

<shrug>  OTOH, it's been updated a few times in the last few months.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From rich at richleland.com  Tue Apr 27 05:30:04 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:30:04 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosystem
In-Reply-To: <20100423201636.GA10993@panix.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100423201636.GA10993@panix.com>
Message-ID: <i2m8e236d371004262030v1162a992j251132c7edb94439@mail.gmail.com>

Kinda awesome how a search for "starship" shows that site on the first page
in a goog search... right under the "we built this city" music vid. :-)

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424


On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, Richard Leland wrote:
> >
> > Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master
> list
> > of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology
> behind
> > them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and help
> me
> > fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
> >
> > - python.org (static files w/build system)
>
> Martin already mentioned mail.python.org, but I wanted to highlight it
> because it has an HTTP server for Mailman, so it contains all the mailing
> list archives and going to http://mail.python.org/ shows the public
> mailing lists.
>
> Althought it's not really part of python.org and is mostly dormant,
> starship.python.net should be examined as part of your researches.
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>
> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
> --Bill Harlan
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Apr 27 06:30:31 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:30:31 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Two problematic pages
In-Reply-To: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BD66867.8030003@v.loewis.de>

> * A lot of the ports on http://www.python.org/download/other/ are very
>   old.  (2.1, 2.4, even 1.5.2, etc.).  I think most people will just
>   search for "Python <OS name>" and not come to python.org to poke
>   around.  Can we just drop the page completely?

If you search for "Python QNX" in Google, which I picked randomly, the
top hit is this very page. I think it is useful to have the page on
python.org: it tells people that, most likely, the most recent version
of Python for QNX *is* 2.3, and that it isn't just their limited
searching abilities that they couldn't find anything better.

However, it may be more useful if it was converted to a Wiki page, so
that people who do find alternatives can also list them.

Regards,
Martin

From georg at python.org  Tue Apr 27 08:41:47 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:41:47 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
 for addition
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>	<20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
Message-ID: <4BD6872B.4050702@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 26.04.2010 20:47, schrieb grubert at users.sourceforge.net:
> this way (i am javascript ignorant)
> 
> <html>
> <head>
> <script type="text/javascript">
>      var lang_idx = 0;
>      var Languages = new Array(
>                  "Afrikaans", "Ahmara", "Algerian"
>              );
>      function language_rotator( Element ) {
>          Element = document.getElementById("lang-img-ref");
>          if (Element) {
>              lang_idx += 1;
>              if (lang_idx >= Languages.length) {
>                  lang_idx = 0;
>              }
>              Element.title = Languages[lang_idx];
>              Element.href = 
> "http://wiki.python.org/moin/"+Languages[lang_idx]+"Language";
>          }
>      }
> </script></head>

Urgh... JS without jQuery feels so clunky... :)

Georg

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Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkvWhyoACgkQN9GcIYhpnLCbBACfUWymIkEyXMDnU1AKGAvF1ITg
tVAAnRFgNMWCh3tkFgTgXHP7aAyLptY2
=nVqp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mfoord at python.org  Tue Apr 27 12:33:04 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:33:04 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Two problematic pages
In-Reply-To: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <4BD6BD60.9040807@python.org>

On 27/04/2010 03:00, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> There are two pages that I'd like to get rid of, but am dithering about:
>
> * http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle/ claims:
>
>        Unfortunately, new-style classes have not yet been integrated into
>        Python's standard documention. Fear not, however; many people have
>        worked to provide useful information on creating and using new-style
>        classes.
>
>    Is this still true?  Are the resources linked from that page still useful?
>
>    

The statement about not being documented is not true - almost all the 
documentation is now oriented towards new-style classes and where they 
aren't it's a bug. Those resources however are still useful. Create a 
wiki page and redirect to that?

> * A lot of the ports on http://www.python.org/download/other/ are very
>    old.  (2.1, 2.4, even 1.5.2, etc.).  I think most people will just
>    search for "Python<OS name>" and not come to python.org to poke
>    around.  Can we just drop the page completely?
>
>    

As someone else pointed out, although old a lot of that information 
about old ports is still 'current'. Again, converting to a wiki page 
seems like a good idea...

All the best,

Michael Foord
> Now that I look at it, http://www.python.org/download/linux/ doesn't
> really have a lot of content; maybe it can be deleted, too.
>
> --amk
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From doug.hellmann at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 13:14:42 2010
From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:14:42 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
Message-ID: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>

I would like to hook the PSF blog up to Feedburner to make it easy for  
people to subscribe by email.  Does the PSF already have a Feedburner  
account, or other Google id that could be used for Feedburner access,  
or should I use my own account?

Thanks,
Doug


From grubert at users.sourceforge.net  Tue Apr 27 13:34:07 2010
From: grubert at users.sourceforge.net (grubert at users.sourceforge.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:34:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
 for addition
In-Reply-To: <4BD6872B.4050702@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
	<4BD6872B.4050702@python.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.00.1004271329140.30865@lx5.local>

>
> Urgh... JS without jQuery feels so clunky... :)
>
> Georg

but it is only 20 lines of code and the request did not mention "add a lot 
of other things to www.python.org"

anyway the real questions are

* does it work on ie
* are the languages fixxed or dynamic or configurable (halfdynamic)
* should the link below change too ? maybe not, because it is the
   entry point, the toc.

cheers


On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Georg Brandl wrote:

> Am 26.04.2010 20:47, schrieb grubert at users.sourceforge.net:
>> this way (i am javascript ignorant)
>>
>> <html>
>> <head>
>> <script type="text/javascript">
>>      var lang_idx = 0;
>>      var Languages = new Array(
>>                  "Afrikaans", "Ahmara", "Algerian"
>>              );
>>      function language_rotator( Element ) {
>>          Element = document.getElementById("lang-img-ref");
>>          if (Element) {
>>              lang_idx += 1;
>>              if (lang_idx >= Languages.length) {
>>                  lang_idx = 0;
>>              }
>>              Element.title = Languages[lang_idx];
>>              Element.href =
>> "http://wiki.python.org/moin/"+Languages[lang_idx]+"Language";
>>          }
>>      }
>> </script></head>

-- 

From jeremy at tuxmachine.com  Tue Apr 27 06:02:10 2010
From: jeremy at tuxmachine.com (Jeremy Baron)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 00:02:10 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
	for addition
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
Message-ID: <r2qb6e4cb81004262102oa78a663aq1b495b1cffaa3051@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

You'd probably want to throttle it so that it won't change more than
once in ~1/2 sec. (tunable)

The changes below should do it.

-Jeremy

before this line (function definition)
    function language_rotator( Element ) {
add this:
    var lastetime = 0;
and in the first line of that function definition add this:
    var thisetime = (new Date()).getTime();
    if ((thisetime - lastetime)<400) {
        return;
    }
    lastetime = thisetime;

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 14:47,  <grubert at users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> this way (i am javascript ignorant)
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <script type="text/javascript">
> ? ?var lang_idx = 0;
> ? ?var Languages = new Array(
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?"Afrikaans", "Ahmara", "Algerian"
> ? ? ? ? ? ?);
> ? ?function language_rotator( Element ) {
> ? ? ? ?Element = document.getElementById("lang-img-ref");
> ? ? ? ?if (Element) {
> ? ? ? ? ? ?lang_idx += 1;
> ? ? ? ? ? ?if (lang_idx >= Languages.length) {
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?lang_idx = 0;
> ? ? ? ? ? ?}
> ? ? ? ? ? ?Element.title = Languages[lang_idx];
> ? ? ? ? ? ?Element.href =
> "http://wiki.python.org/moin/"+Languages[lang_idx]+"Language";
> ? ? ? ?}
> ? ?}
> </script></head>
> <body>
> ? ?<div style="align:center; padding-top: 0.5em; padding-left: 2.5em">
> ? ? ? ? ? ?<a title="non-English" id="lang-img-ref"
> href="http://wiki.python.org/moin/Languages"><img
> ? ? ? ? ? ?id="lang-img" onmousemove="javascript:language_rotator(this);"
> ? ? ? ? ?style="align:center"
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ?width="94" height="46"
> ? ? ? ? ?src="http://www.python.org/images/worldmap.jpg" alt="[Python
> resources in languages other than English]" /></a>
> ? ?</div>
> ? ?</body>
> </html>
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 01:18:11PM -0600, Carl Trachte wrote:
>>>>
>>>> An interesting exercise might be to implement a bit of JavaScript which
>>>> rotates the phrase "Non-English Resources" among several (four to six?)
>>>> languages: German, French, Chinese, Spanish, etc. ?The rotation need not
>>>> reflect the location of the cursor. ?Movement by a few pixels within the
>>>> map
>>>> would rotate to the next translation.
>>>
>>> This sounds cool, but I can't make it happen right now. ?It is always
>>> something we can augment with whatever gets implemented later, right?
>>
>> (cc'ing to psf-volunteers; this is a pydotorg-www thread about the new
>> non-English resources link and world-map graphic; you can see it on
>> http://www.python.org/dev/, for example. ?Does someone want to
>> volunteer to write the necessary JavaScript function?)
>>
>> Certainly it could be added later. ?If someone wants to assemble the
>> necessary list of translations and write the JavaScript, I can
>> certainly add it. ?Also, anchors could be added to the wiki page so
>> that the German text link could go straight to the German section with
>> /moin/Languages#de or whatever.
>>
>> --amk

From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 22:46:26 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:46:26 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.
-- 
anatoly t.



On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to hook the PSF blog up to Feedburner to make it easy for
> people to subscribe by email. ?Does the PSF already have a Feedburner
> account, or other Google id that could be used for Feedburner access, or
> should I use my own account?
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 22:54:04 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:54:04 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Two problematic pages
In-Reply-To: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
References: <20100427020039.GA14562@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
Message-ID: <j2md34314101004271354if4f5da8biae07d5dc459b72fc@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:00 AM, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
> There are two pages that I'd like to get rid of, but am dithering about:
>
> * http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle/ claims:
>
> ? ? ?Unfortunately, new-style classes have not yet been integrated into
> ? ? ?Python's standard documention. Fear not, however; many people have
> ? ? ?worked to provide useful information on creating and using new-style
> ? ? ?classes.
>
> ?Is this still true? ?Are the resources linked from that page still useful?

CCed to docs.

> * A lot of the ports on http://www.python.org/download/other/ are very
> ?old. ?(2.1, 2.4, even 1.5.2, etc.). ?I think most people will just
> ?search for "Python <OS name>" and not come to python.org to poke
> ?around. ?Can we just drop the page completely?

Very useful page. Converting to wiki is a good idea.

> Now that I look at it, http://www.python.org/download/linux/ doesn't
> really have a lot of content; maybe it can be deleted, too.

It should be redirected to Wiki and Wiki expanded with information how
to get the Python installed for their platform (Ubuntu/Debian), how to
install newer Python (very actual for Debian). Describe Python
environment on these platforms or provide relevant links.
-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 22:56:43 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:56:43 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] python.org ecosystem
In-Reply-To: <i2m8e236d371004262030v1162a992j251132c7edb94439@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2i8e236d371004211326l28f5f991m5f06564ce45ddb26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100423201636.GA10993@panix.com>
	<i2m8e236d371004262030v1162a992j251132c7edb94439@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g2yd34314101004271356i44fe1350zef2c571be84274a4@mail.gmail.com>

Google reads your mind to make you pleased with awesome results. =)
-- 
anatoly t.


On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Richard Leland <rich at richleland.com> wrote:
> Kinda awesome how a search for "starship" shows that site on the first page
> in a goog search... right under the "we built this city" music vid. :-)
> - Rich
> Richard Leland
> rich at richleland.com
> 240-242-7424
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010, Richard Leland wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi all - one of the research points I've got to hit is getting a master
>> > list
>> > of all the sites within the python.org ecosystem and the technology
>> > behind
>> > them. Below is what I've got so far - if you could take a look and help
>> > me
>> > fill in the missing pieces I'd appreciate it!
>> >
>> > - python.org (static files w/build system)
>>
>> Martin already mentioned mail.python.org, but I wanted to highlight it
>> because it has an HTTP server for Mailman, so it contains all the mailing
>> list archives and going to http://mail.python.org/ shows the public
>> mailing lists.
>>
>> Althought it's not really part of python.org and is mostly dormant,
>> starship.python.net should be examined as part of your researches.
>> --
>> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) ? ? ? ? ? <*>
>> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>>
>> "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
>> --Bill Harlan
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Wed Apr 28 00:31:54 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 00:31:54 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
	for addition
In-Reply-To: <r2qb6e4cb81004262102oa78a663aq1b495b1cffaa3051@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
	<r2qb6e4cb81004262102oa78a663aq1b495b1cffaa3051@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201004280031.55211.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Tuesday 27 April 2010 06:02:10 Jeremy Baron wrote:
>
> You'd probably want to throttle it so that it won't change more than
> once in ~1/2 sec. (tunable)
>
> The changes below should do it.

Provided it doesn't perform a "busy wait", it would be acceptable. I once 
complained to one prominent Norwegian site about an advertisement that caused 
more than 90% CPU usage because it was written to do needless ultra-smooth 
scrolling with its content, eventually getting them to lean on the 
perpetrators and make it less outrageously behaved. As I explained to them, 
the last thing you want is the battery on your netbook/notebook/phone to go 
flat because part of a Web site wants to update itself unduly, even if the 
browser is minimised or the tab is hidden (ridiculously enough).

Paul

P.S. Eventually, I blocked scripts from their site altogether, but that's 
another matter. Sites shouldn't be on the brink of annoying their regular 
audience.

From georg at python.org  Wed Apr 28 01:36:50 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 01:36:50 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
	<p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD77512.7090803@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 27.04.2010 22:46, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.

Would you please stop making these allusions?  There are perfectly
good reasons to have a private mailing list, even if you are not
required to agree with that.

Georg
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aHcAn0jiZzXNj5ExNMbx2advefFZUAxc
=lK+g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From georg at python.org  Wed Apr 28 01:37:59 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 01:37:59 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
 for addition
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.00.1004271329140.30865@lx5.local>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425005041.GA8709@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
	<4BD6872B.4050702@python.org>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004271329140.30865@lx5.local>
Message-ID: <4BD77557.1040406@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 27.04.2010 13:34, schrieb grubert at users.sourceforge.net:
>>
>> Urgh... JS without jQuery feels so clunky... :)
>>
>> Georg
> 
> but it is only 20 lines of code and the request did not mention "add a lot 
> of other things to www.python.org"

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest using jQuery for this.  It was just
an observation :)

Georg
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux)

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A+sAn0dQ+V5tu6ww0w2NBdD13udLzsqK
=cMir
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Apr 28 17:05:20 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:05:20 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Links box no longer at main page at python.org
Message-ID: <20100428150520.GA29907@panix.com>

AMK,

Here's some feedback on your recent work.

----- Forwarded message from Kristian Torp <torp at cs.aau.dk> -----

> From: Kristian Torp <torp at cs.aau.dk>
> To: "webmaster at python.org" <webmaster at python.org>
> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:11:20 +0200
> Subject: Links box no longer at main page at python.org
> 
> Dear Webmaster,
> 
> The "Links" box that previously has been available in the main menu at the python.org homepage is now gone and I miss It :-). That this box is missing means that finding the PyPI package index is now quite complicated. You basically need to know what you are looking for.
> 
> The "Links" box is still on for example the page for http://pypi.python.org/pypi.
> 
> Best regards,
> Kristian

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 22:54:51 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:54:51 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <4BD77512.7090803@python.org>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
	<p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD77512.7090803@python.org>
Message-ID: <s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>
>> Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.
>
> Would you please stop making these allusions? ?There are perfectly
> good reasons to have a private mailing list, even if you are not
> required to agree with that.

I just mention the fact that the role of this ML is unclear to general
public and is not described anywhere - http://python.org/community/
-- 
anatoly t.

From goodger at python.org  Wed Apr 28 23:51:14 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:51:14 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
	<p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD77512.7090803@python.org>
	<s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g2l4335d2c41004281451r24e5770el5948f25a303d5f43@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 16:54, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.
>>
>> Would you please stop making these allusions? ?There are perfectly
>> good reasons to have a private mailing list, even if you are not
>> required to agree with that.
>
> I just mention the fact that the role of this ML is unclear to general
> public and is not described anywhere - http://python.org/community/

Sure it is:
http://python.org/dev/pydotorg/

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 01:36:02 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 02:36:02 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <g2l4335d2c41004281451r24e5770el5948f25a303d5f43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
	<p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD77512.7090803@python.org>
	<s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2l4335d2c41004281451r24e5770el5948f25a303d5f43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g2rd34314101004281636y5807cf1cub4a534f6f2595755@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:51 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 16:54, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.
>>>
>>> Would you please stop making these allusions? ?There are perfectly
>>> good reasons to have a private mailing list, even if you are not
>>> required to agree with that.
>>
>> I just mention the fact that the role of this ML is unclear to general
>> public and is not described anywhere - http://python.org/community/
>
> Sure it is:
> http://python.org/dev/pydotorg/

I glad you know your bookmarks, but have you tried it this way?
1. http://python.org/
2. Help Maintain Website

And I'd still insist on making pydotorg-www a primary contact point
leaving webmaster@ only for security sensitive issues. It looks like
pydotorg-www is made solely for chatting and its members receive tasks
from upstream webmasters. I do not think many will be motivated to
work in such environment.
-- 
anatoly t.

From goodger at python.org  Thu Apr 29 02:57:04 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:57:04 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <g2rd34314101004281636y5807cf1cub4a534f6f2595755@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
	<p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD77512.7090803@python.org>
	<s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2l4335d2c41004281451r24e5770el5948f25a303d5f43@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2rd34314101004281636y5807cf1cub4a534f6f2595755@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <i2x4335d2c41004281757l72b7bb22i321ee0e85d72c6a7@mail.gmail.com>

Anatoly, your efforts would be much better put (and welcome!) to
actually improving the website, rather than nit-picking and making
snide remarks. All that you're accomplishing with that is pissing
people off. I'm at least the third person to say that, in one form or
another.

-- David Goodger

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 19:36, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:51 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 16:54, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.
>>>>
>>>> Would you please stop making these allusions? ?There are perfectly
>>>> good reasons to have a private mailing list, even if you are not
>>>> required to agree with that.
>>>
>>> I just mention the fact that the role of this ML is unclear to general
>>> public and is not described anywhere - http://python.org/community/
>>
>> Sure it is:
>> http://python.org/dev/pydotorg/
>
> I glad you know your bookmarks, but have you tried it this way?
> 1. http://python.org/
> 2. Help Maintain Website
>
> And I'd still insist on making pydotorg-www a primary contact point
> leaving webmaster@ only for security sensitive issues. It looks like
> pydotorg-www is made solely for chatting and its members receive tasks
> from upstream webmasters. I do not think many will be motivated to
> work in such environment.
> --
> anatoly t.
>

From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Apr 29 03:09:25 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:09:25 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>	<p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD77512.7090803@python.org>
	<s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD8DC45.4050909@holdenweb.com>

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>> Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.
>> Would you please stop making these allusions?  There are perfectly
>> good reasons to have a private mailing list, even if you are not
>> required to agree with that.
> 
> I just mention the fact that the role of this ML is unclear to general
> public and is not described anywhere - http://python.org/community/

Since it isn't a public list I don't understand why that matters to you.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Apr 29 03:24:52 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:24:52 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Mailing list dead pile and private lists
In-Reply-To: <o2id34314101004250111z53fb5800u56f704a392fa55f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2id34314101004250111z53fb5800u56f704a392fa55f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100429012452.GA19830@panix.com>

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>
> So, I propose to review current SIGs ML, private ML and merge/remove
> or archive dead ML.

Please don't.  You will almost certainly make many list owners angry.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From ctrachte at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 03:49:52 2010
From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:49:52 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] feedburner account
In-Reply-To: <g2rd34314101004281636y5807cf1cub4a534f6f2595755@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6113EED0-3C74-400D-895A-EE1ACCCA90BC@gmail.com>
	<p2yd34314101004271346q9815714ct94777d5737c61097@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD77512.7090803@python.org>
	<s2qd34314101004281354zc1c62735s2222c617b14b74a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2l4335d2c41004281451r24e5770el5948f25a303d5f43@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2rd34314101004281636y5807cf1cub4a534f6f2595755@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2s426ada671004281849l71d240fdx9c1f5786a3d8ad23@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/28/10, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:51 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 16:54, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Georg Brandl <georg at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Forwarded to mysterious pydotorg.
>>>>
>>>> Would you please stop making these allusions?  There are perfectly
>>>> good reasons to have a private mailing list, even if you are not
>>>> required to agree with that.
>>>
>>> I just mention the fact that the role of this ML is unclear to general
>>> public and is not described anywhere - http://python.org/community/
>>
>> Sure it is:
>> http://python.org/dev/pydotorg/
>
> I glad you know your bookmarks, but have you tried it this way?
> 1. http://python.org/
> 2. Help Maintain Website
>
> And I'd still insist on making pydotorg-www a primary contact point
> leaving webmaster@ only for security sensitive issues. It looks like
> pydotorg-www is made solely for chatting and its members receive tasks
> from upstream webmasters.

I'm sorry it looks that way, but this is not consistent with my
experience.  I've had (not personal) misunderstandings with the psf
list (another private one); they turned out to be just that -
misunderstandings.  No one has ever tried to give orders or even tried
to have me receive a task.  How could that happen?  I'm a volunteer.

If there's that little trust at the outset, it's going to be hard to
accomplish anything anyway.

 I do not think many will be motivated to
> work in such environment.

You may be right about the perception regarding the way things are set
up.  I for one am willing to take my chances.  It's not like
python-org or the PSF are a cult that takes your money and sends you
to a farm collective to work for no pay.  You can do that from home
;-)

My 2 cents.

> --
> anatoly t.
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From rich at richleland.com  Thu Apr 29 05:44:59 2010
From: rich at richleland.com (Richard Leland)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:44:59 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] weekly status: apr 28
Message-ID: <v2o8e236d371004282044o6d1dbf75zc3ce3da087f3023e@mail.gmail.com>

Beginning this week I'll be sending along weekly progress updates on the
python.org project. I'll try to keep these updates short and sweet. So
without further ado, here's the state of the state...

- Got a basic project plan online
- Outlined project goals
- Identified the project steps (research, propose, implement)
- Got a head start on some research items

I also posted a timeline for the project at
http://richleland.bitbucket.org/pydotorg-pm/timeline.html this evening. It's
pretty conservative, giving us about 4 months to research and come up with a
proposal for potential modifications. It's my hope that once this proposal
is presented and discussed with the PSF board we can move forward with a
phased implementation.

With my admitted lack of knowledge of python.org it has taken me a few weeks
to get into the swing of things. The community, both within and outside this
list, has been so helpful and willing to share their knowledge thus far and
that's been a great help.

Thank you all for taking the time to help me get acquainted with the
python.org ecosystem - I appreciate it. Let me know if you have any
questions at all or would like to discuss anything within the project plan
at any time.

- Rich

Richard Leland
rich at richleland.com
240-242-7424
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From grubert at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Apr 29 21:12:52 2010
From: grubert at users.sourceforge.net (engelbert gruber)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:12:52 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
	for addition
In-Reply-To: <4BD77557.1040406@python.org>
References: <m2s426ada671004241107y60d644c3u613d98ed0b7bb693@mail.gmail.com>
	<r2t426ada671004241828n41117c85q109cad653499e485@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100425150448.GC8960@andrew-kuchlings-macbook.local>
	<19412.26851.64570.285062@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<y2s426ada671004251218gd9d3eb6t8e319261d0ad9b16@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100426135122.GB4455@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004262046380.7647@lx5.local>
	<4BD6872B.4050702@python.org>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.1004271329140.30865@lx5.local>
	<4BD77557.1040406@python.org>
Message-ID: <q2nac12bf3a1004291212o15777650rdffdee9395bf5225@mail.gmail.com>

so anything i can do (in my spare^H^H^H^Htolen time)
did anyone recognize that it is 20 lines javascript (the simplest
thing that possibly could do)
and more than 200 lines of email.
swayne said 1989 or so the next big thing is social and internet!

cheers

From amk at amk.ca  Thu Apr 29 21:40:57 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:40:57 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Volunteers] International Symbol - request
 for addition
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Message-ID: <20100429194057.GA6658@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 01:34:07PM +0200, grubert at users.sourceforge.net wrote:
> * does it work on ie
> * are the languages fixxed or dynamic or configurable (halfdynamic)

I think a fixed list is fine, of the 5-10 most common languages
listed on /moin/Languages.

> * should the link below change too ? maybe not, because it is the
>   entry point, the toc.

Probably not.  It's mildly annoying that a link w/ German text would
drop people on a big list of languages, but we probably shouldn't
include every single language we have a page for.

Thanks for your JavaScript code.  I won't be able to look at it until
next week because Python 2.7beta2 is due this weekend and I'm trying
to finish the release notes.  Maybe someone else will take a look
before then.

--amk