From andy.terrel at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 11:53:06 2019
From: andy.terrel at gmail.com (Andy Ray Terrel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:53:06 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CA+WonSSuJcacPX_gY9QUUVOv1tUi-kJcHxQcaLuw=StwQ6GPLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
 <CAJPUwMC9hdif9S664eF+uhh7AHz1i8Xe=oEpJk309OO53rQktw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-H=_p6diNcSdmgBTzDkpEbyoN--zaq0fRqtHHD3zZ1vCA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+WonSSrg2m-snL1LOLrhEiOLmm=SAzNJxOstSfWB1Xk8qdM_w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+WonSSNkOSh=rZ0v76n+x3u9Ju9XQNzBWGQaaf_S+-9SBMF5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDR6CgbQZ6EdsPbDyCKw1dZ9-OTbNCCHXR1JDpM962fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMBSukj1nUswXji3OCiw4j0_7YGRxvtk4++BAnT+muWTHQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we were
>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little bit
>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising activities,
>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>>
>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>>
>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects function
>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
>> project contributions.
>>
>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
>> about what different groups of developers are trying to accomplish.
>>
>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that needs
>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>>
>>
> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could also just
> make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we should write up
> a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>
>

I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.

On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around managing
pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org to reflect
more of the development community around the ecosystem so definitely send
ideas and thoughts.

-- Andy


> - Andy
>
>
>> - Wes
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>> >
>> > There were some issues raised before:
>> >
>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing long-range
>> cross-project coordination then those conversations might have long term
>> value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them, subscribe to
>> them, and so on.
>> >
>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which might be
>> turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>> >
>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features like
>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid moderation
>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split parts
>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful for
>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted before you
>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
>> > ...), ...
>> >
>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
>> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>> >
>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's also true
>> of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure that it
>> wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the (in)ability to
>> edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not particularly concerned
>> with people modifying history in a nefarious way.  Though perhaps my
>> viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this issue in our
>> community.
>> >
>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is that it's a
>> well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>> >
>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse
>> respectively:
>> >
>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get bored
>> listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop notifications.
>> The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets of the
>> community, but not the community as a whole.
>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it doesn't
>> reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's discourse
>> today?)
>> >
>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but those two
>> outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>> >>
>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public, archival,
>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments can be
>> >> edited or deleted.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells the
>> folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great we
>> might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross
>> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
>> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use.
>> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a
>> great option for open source development.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS projects
>> ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>> >> >
>> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> @Andy
>> >> >>
>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent traffic
>> it
>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak publicly
>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
>> searchable).
>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening between
>> the
>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
>> communication
>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no obvious place
>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of those
>> >> >> projects.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to raise
>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or scipy-user used
>> to
>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have shifted.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Wes
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
>> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the
>> PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder
>> if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller steering
>> committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do the same
>> for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and github repos
>> but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion include:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for rust
>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement for
>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but where a
>> ton of
>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features
>> like
>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>> moderation
>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split
>> parts
>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful
>> for
>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
>> before you
>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything
>> /
>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly
>> /
>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> -n
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at least in
>> PyTorch's
>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users than a
>> place for
>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is
>> probably overdue
>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of years
>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of
>> coordination does
>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc basis.
>> It would
>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems and
>> possible
>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is the
>> obvious first choice here.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
>> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
>> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
>> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree that it
>> is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case than
>> what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people could
>> get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen with a
>> broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering these
>> topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been expressed
>> here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other than an
>> e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I believe, but
>> neither is particularly active. Whether those should be considered possible
>> starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from "how
>> about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an e-mail
>> list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most activity
>> recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken off that
>> well.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list would be
>> great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Best,
>> >> >> >> > -matt
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google groups if
>> others prefer
>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den Bossche
>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in some way
>> related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a list. I
>> think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <
>> shoyer at gmail.com:
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this today.
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived communication
>> channels
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
>> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the existing
>> PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed to be
>> somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I wondered
>> what you all think
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public discussions
>> that involve other
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1 degree
>> of separation away
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or
>> something. Is there
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just missed?
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and go to
>> fewer conferences the
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time coding
>> and writing, but I
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people (asynchronously)
>> about things, and
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>
>
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From wesmckinn at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 12:33:29 2019
From: wesmckinn at gmail.com (Wes McKinney)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 11:33:29 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
 <CAJPUwMC9hdif9S664eF+uhh7AHz1i8Xe=oEpJk309OO53rQktw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEQ_TvfgryjgmqkCCtF-GUp+_GOg_nLh5qSF9_mdQMNf66gEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBYzXG538pzxU_EKgSZmA6NsMo6hdiDGGHheRd5uzhDPEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCMFufJLdL00QPwUju5_ow1q=4QbWGR7eUTJZA2aQCGeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-GwQ69KwxFVrGHajOgB0qq5CzOLmtHNijDk=2P3i3nzFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+WonSSNkOSh=rZ0v76n+x3u9Ju9XQNzBWGQaaf_S+-9SBMF5w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMBSukj1nUswXji3OCiw4j0_7YGRxvtk4++BAnT+muWTHQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>

Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
make some of us admins?

Thanks

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we were
>>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little bit
>>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
>>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising activities,
>>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
>>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
>>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>>>
>>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
>>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>>>
>>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects function
>>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
>>> project contributions.
>>>
>>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
>>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
>>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
>>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
>>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
>>> about what different groups of developers are trying to accomplish.
>>>
>>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
>>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that needs
>>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>>>
>>
>> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>>
>
>
> I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
>
> On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so definitely send ideas and thoughts.
>
> -- Andy
>
>>
>> - Andy
>>
>>>
>>> - Wes
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>>> >
>>> > There were some issues raised before:
>>> >
>>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them, subscribe to them, and so on.
>>> >
>>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>>> >
>>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features like
>>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid moderation
>>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split parts
>>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful for
>>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted before you
>>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
>>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
>>> > ...), ...
>>> >
>>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>>> >
>>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious way.  Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this issue in our community.
>>> >
>>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is that it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>>> >
>>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse respectively:
>>> >
>>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets of the community, but not the community as a whole.
>>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's discourse today?)
>>> >
>>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public, archival,
>>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments can be
>>> >> edited or deleted.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use. Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a great option for open source development.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > -- Andy
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> @Andy
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent traffic it
>>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak publicly
>>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived, searchable).
>>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening between the
>>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc communication
>>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no obvious place
>>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
>>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of those
>>> >> >> projects.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to raise
>>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or scipy-user used to
>>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have shifted.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> - Wes
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > -- Andy
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion include:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for rust
>>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement for
>>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but where a ton of
>>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features like
>>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid moderation
>>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split parts
>>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful for
>>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted before you
>>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
>>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
>>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> -n
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at least in PyTorch's
>>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users than a place for
>>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is probably overdue
>>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of years
>>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of coordination does
>>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc basis. It would
>>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems and possible
>>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is the obvious first choice here.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them, subscribe to them, and so on.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken off that well.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Best,
>>> >> >> >> > -matt
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google groups if others prefer
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den Bossche
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <shoyer at gmail.com:
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this today.
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived communication channels
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the existing PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I wondered what you all think
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public discussions that involve other
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1 degree of separation away
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or something. Is there
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just missed?
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and go to fewer conferences the
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time coding and writing, but I
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people (asynchronously) about things, and
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> --
>>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev

From andy.terrel at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 12:46:04 2019
From: andy.terrel at gmail.com (Andy Ray Terrel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 11:46:04 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
 <CAJPUwMC9hdif9S664eF+uhh7AHz1i8Xe=oEpJk309OO53rQktw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEQ_TvfgryjgmqkCCtF-GUp+_GOg_nLh5qSF9_mdQMNf66gEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBYzXG538pzxU_EKgSZmA6NsMo6hdiDGGHheRd5uzhDPEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCMFufJLdL00QPwUju5_ow1q=4QbWGR7eUTJZA2aQCGeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-GwQ69KwxFVrGHajOgB0qq5CzOLmtHNijDk=2P3i3nzFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-H=_p6diNcSdmgBTzDkpEbyoN--zaq0fRqtHHD3zZ1vCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJVwB=yj-5QNf6iGiUrnmJuHWupS2tF1NCGpvS5+BC9T1dxWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSrg2m-snL1LOLrhEiOLmm=SAzNJxOstSfWB1Xk8qdM_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMAW8=7Jq_5Q44KtX6_N0g8iLg3xZQUTdAGyJLQeuE1-bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSNkOSh=rZ0v76n+x3u9Ju9XQNzBWGQaaf_S+-9SBMF5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDR6CgbQZ6EdsPbDyCKw1dZ9-OTbNCCHXR1JDpM962fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMBSukj1nUswXji3OCiw4j0_7YGRxvtk4++BAnT+muWTHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSuJcacPX_gY9QUUVOv1tUi-kJcHxQcaLuw=StwQ6GPLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+WonSSVPyswdeqYWCr0K48vsX6FdbOzSfK0=hXTpkRQajzeKg@mail.gmail.com>

It is managed by Google groups.

I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if you
want to admin.

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
> make some of us admins?
>
> Thanks
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we were
> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little bit
> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising activities,
> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
> >>>
> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
> >>>
> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects function
> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
> >>> project contributions.
> >>>
> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to accomplish.
> >>>
> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that needs
> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could also
> just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we should
> write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
> >
> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around managing
> pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org to reflect
> more of the development community around the ecosystem so definitely send
> ideas and thoughts.
> >
> > -- Andy
> >
> >>
> >> - Andy
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - Wes
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
> >>> >
> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
> >>> >
> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
> subscribe to them, and so on.
> >>> >
> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which might
> be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
> >>> >
> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features like
> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid moderation
> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split
> parts
> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful for
> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted before
> you
> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
> >>> > ...), ...
> >>> >
> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
> >>> >
> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's also
> true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure that
> it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the (in)ability to
> edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not particularly concerned
> with people modifying history in a nefarious way.  Though perhaps my
> viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this issue in our
> community.
> >>> >
> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is that
> it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
> >>> >
> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse
> respectively:
> >>> >
> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get bored
> listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop notifications.
> The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets of the
> community, but not the community as a whole.
> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it
> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's
> discourse today?)
> >>> >
> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but those
> two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public, archival,
> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments can be
> >>> >> edited or deleted.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells the
> folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great we
> might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross
> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use.
> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a
> great option for open source development.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS projects
> ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > -- Andy
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> @Andy
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent
> traffic it
> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak
> publicly
> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
> searchable).
> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening
> between the
> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
> communication
> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no obvious
> place
> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of those
> >>> >> >> projects.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to raise
> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or scipy-user
> used to
> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have
> shifted.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> - Wes
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the
> PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder
> if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller
> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do
> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com>
> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion include:
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for rust
> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement for
> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but where a
> ton of
> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
> adjustment
> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
> features like
> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
> moderation
> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively
> split parts
> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
> useful for
> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the governance
> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
> before you
> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
> everything /
> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
> weekly /
> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> -n
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at least
> in PyTorch's
> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users than a
> place for
> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is
> probably overdue
> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of years
> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of
> coordination does
> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc
> basis. It would
> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems and
> possible
> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is the
> obvious first choice here.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list
> that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
> subscribe to them, and so on.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree that
> it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case than
> what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people could
> get a sense of what an active system looks like.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen with a
> broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering these
> topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been expressed
> here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other than an
> e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I believe,
> but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be considered
> possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from "how
> about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an e-mail
> list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most activity
> recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken off that
> well.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list would be
> great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google groups
> if others prefer
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den Bossche
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in some
> way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a list.
> I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <
> shoyer at gmail.com:
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this today.
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived communication
> channels
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the existing
> PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed to be
> somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I wondered
> what you all think
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
> discussions that involve other
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1
> degree of separation away
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or
> something. Is there
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just missed?
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and go to
> fewer conferences the
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time
> coding and writing, but I
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people (asynchronously)
> about things, and
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> --
> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>
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From wesmckinn at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 12:48:22 2019
From: wesmckinn at gmail.com (Wes McKinney)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 11:48:22 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CA+WonSSVPyswdeqYWCr0K48vsX6FdbOzSfK0=hXTpkRQajzeKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
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 <CAEQ_TvfgryjgmqkCCtF-GUp+_GOg_nLh5qSF9_mdQMNf66gEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBYzXG538pzxU_EKgSZmA6NsMo6hdiDGGHheRd5uzhDPEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCMFufJLdL00QPwUju5_ow1q=4QbWGR7eUTJZA2aQCGeg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-H=_p6diNcSdmgBTzDkpEbyoN--zaq0fRqtHHD3zZ1vCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJVwB=yj-5QNf6iGiUrnmJuHWupS2tF1NCGpvS5+BC9T1dxWQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPUwMADcP4czURcWMxrYx8Lcm6RwXMXsTp5BvRUED_O-DqhOg@mail.gmail.com>

I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have a
@pydata.org e-mail address)

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is managed by Google groups.
>
> I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if you want to admin.
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
>> make some of us admins?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we were
>> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little bit
>> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
>> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising activities,
>> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
>> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
>> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>> >>>
>> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
>> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>> >>>
>> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects function
>> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
>> >>> project contributions.
>> >>>
>> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
>> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
>> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
>> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
>> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
>> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to accomplish.
>> >>>
>> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
>> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that needs
>> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
>> >
>> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so definitely send ideas and thoughts.
>> >
>> > -- Andy
>> >
>> >>
>> >> - Andy
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> - Wes
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them, subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features like
>> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid moderation
>> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split parts
>> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful for
>> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted before you
>> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
>> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
>> >>> > ...), ...
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious way.  Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this issue in our community.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is that it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse respectively:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets of the community, but not the community as a whole.
>> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's discourse today?)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public, archival,
>> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments can be
>> >>> >> edited or deleted.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use. Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a great option for open source development.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > -- Andy
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> @Andy
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent traffic it
>> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak publicly
>> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived, searchable).
>> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening between the
>> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc communication
>> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no obvious place
>> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
>> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of those
>> >>> >> >> projects.
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to raise
>> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or scipy-user used to
>> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have shifted.
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> - Wes
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion include:
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for rust
>> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement for
>> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but where a ton of
>> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features like
>> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid moderation
>> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split parts
>> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful for
>> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted before you
>> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
>> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
>> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> -n
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at least in PyTorch's
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users than a place for
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is probably overdue
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of years
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of coordination does
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc basis. It would
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems and possible
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is the obvious first choice here.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them, subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken off that well.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
>> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
>> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google groups if others prefer
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den Bossche
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <shoyer at gmail.com:
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this today.
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived communication channels
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the existing PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I wondered what you all think
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public discussions that involve other
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1 degree of separation away
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or something. Is there
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just missed?
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and go to fewer conferences the
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time coding and writing, but I
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people (asynchronously) about things, and
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> >> --
>> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> >> >
>> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev

From andy.terrel at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 12:57:12 2019
From: andy.terrel at gmail.com (Andy Ray Terrel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 11:57:12 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPUwMADcP4czURcWMxrYx8Lcm6RwXMXsTp5BvRUED_O-DqhOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
 <CAJPUwMC9hdif9S664eF+uhh7AHz1i8Xe=oEpJk309OO53rQktw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEQ_TvfgryjgmqkCCtF-GUp+_GOg_nLh5qSF9_mdQMNf66gEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBYzXG538pzxU_EKgSZmA6NsMo6hdiDGGHheRd5uzhDPEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCMFufJLdL00QPwUju5_ow1q=4QbWGR7eUTJZA2aQCGeg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-H=_p6diNcSdmgBTzDkpEbyoN--zaq0fRqtHHD3zZ1vCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJVwB=yj-5QNf6iGiUrnmJuHWupS2tF1NCGpvS5+BC9T1dxWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSrg2m-snL1LOLrhEiOLmm=SAzNJxOstSfWB1Xk8qdM_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMAW8=7Jq_5Q44KtX6_N0g8iLg3xZQUTdAGyJLQeuE1-bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSNkOSh=rZ0v76n+x3u9Ju9XQNzBWGQaaf_S+-9SBMF5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDR6CgbQZ6EdsPbDyCKw1dZ9-OTbNCCHXR1JDpM962fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMBSukj1nUswXji3OCiw4j0_7YGRxvtk4++BAnT+muWTHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSuJcacPX_gY9QUUVOv1tUi-kJcHxQcaLuw=StwQ6GPLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSVPyswdeqYWCr0K48vsX6FdbOzSfK0=hXTpkRQajzeKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMADcP4czURcWMxrYx8Lcm6RwXMXsTp5BvRUED_O-DqhOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+WonSRVyE+2+1QdRJWte48WAReZNz80vHUVRZA30qhxNiTdQQ@mail.gmail.com>

I added you directly. I have the access to "anyone can join" but perhaps
I'm missing something. I'll keep poking around.

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:

> I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have a
> @pydata.org e-mail address)
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > It is managed by Google groups.
> >
> > I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if you
> want to admin.
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
> >> make some of us admins?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
> >> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we were
> >> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little
> bit
> >> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
> >> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising activities,
> >> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
> >> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
> >> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
> >> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects function
> >> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
> >> >>> project contributions.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
> >> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
> >> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
> >> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
> >> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
> >> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to accomplish.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
> >> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that needs
> >> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
> >> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could also
> just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we should
> write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
> >> >
> >> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around
> managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org to
> reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so
> definitely send ideas and thoughts.
> >> >
> >> > -- Andy
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> - Andy
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> - Wes
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
> >> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
> subscribe to them, and so on.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which
> might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
> >> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features
> like
> >> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
> moderation
> >> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split
> parts
> >> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful
> for
> >> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
> >> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
> before you
> >> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
> >> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
> >> >>> > ...), ...
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's also
> true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure that
> it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the (in)ability to
> edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not particularly concerned
> with people modifying history in a nefarious way.  Though perhaps my
> viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this issue in our
> community.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is that
> it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse
> respectively:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get
> bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop
> notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets
> of the community, but not the community as a whole.
> >> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it
> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's
> discourse today?)
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but
> those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public,
> archival,
> >> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments can
> be
> >> >>> >> edited or deleted.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells
> the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great
> we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross
> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use.
> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a
> great option for open source development.
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS projects
> ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> > -- Andy
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> @Andy
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent
> traffic it
> >> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
> >> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak
> publicly
> >> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
> searchable).
> >> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening
> between the
> >> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
> communication
> >> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no
> obvious place
> >> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
> >> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of those
> >> >>> >> >> projects.
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to
> raise
> >> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or
> scipy-user used to
> >> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have
> shifted.
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> - Wes
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the
> PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder
> if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
> >> >>> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller
> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do
> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
> >> >>> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
> >> >>> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <
> njs at pobox.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion
> include:
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for
> rust
> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement for
> >> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but
> where a ton of
> >> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
> adjustment
> >> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
> features like
> >> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
> moderation
> >> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively
> split parts
> >> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
> useful for
> >> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the
> governance
> >> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were
> posted before you
> >> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
> everything /
> >> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
> weekly /
> >> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> -n
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at
> least in PyTorch's
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users than
> a place for
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is
> probably overdue
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of
> years
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of
> coordination does
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc
> basis. It would
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems
> and possible
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is the
> obvious first choice here.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list
> that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
> >> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're
> doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might
> have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
> subscribe to them, and so on.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree
> that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case
> than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people
> could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen with
> a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering these
> topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been expressed
> here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other than an
> e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I
> believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be
> considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from
> "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an
> e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most
> activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken
> off that well.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list would
> be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
> >> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google
> groups if others prefer
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den
> Bossche
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in
> some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a
> list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <
> shoyer at gmail.com:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this
> today.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived communication
> channels
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the existing
> PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed to be
> somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I
> wondered what you all think
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
> discussions that involve other
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1
> degree of separation away
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or
> something. Is there
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just
> missed?
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and go
> to fewer conferences the
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time
> coding and writing, but I
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people
> (asynchronously) about things, and
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> >> --
> >> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>
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From garcia.marc at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 19:42:31 2019
From: garcia.marc at gmail.com (Marc Garcia)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 00:42:31 +0000
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CA+WonSRVyE+2+1QdRJWte48WAReZNz80vHUVRZA30qhxNiTdQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
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 <CAEQ_TvfgryjgmqkCCtF-GUp+_GOg_nLh5qSF9_mdQMNf66gEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBYzXG538pzxU_EKgSZmA6NsMo6hdiDGGHheRd5uzhDPEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCMFufJLdL00QPwUju5_ow1q=4QbWGR7eUTJZA2aQCGeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-GwQ69KwxFVrGHajOgB0qq5CzOLmtHNijDk=2P3i3nzFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-H=_p6diNcSdmgBTzDkpEbyoN--zaq0fRqtHHD3zZ1vCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJVwB=yj-5QNf6iGiUrnmJuHWupS2tF1NCGpvS5+BC9T1dxWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSrg2m-snL1LOLrhEiOLmm=SAzNJxOstSfWB1Xk8qdM_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMAW8=7Jq_5Q44KtX6_N0g8iLg3xZQUTdAGyJLQeuE1-bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSNkOSh=rZ0v76n+x3u9Ju9XQNzBWGQaaf_S+-9SBMF5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDR6CgbQZ6EdsPbDyCKw1dZ9-OTbNCCHXR1JDpM962fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMBSukj1nUswXji3OCiw4j0_7YGRxvtk4++BAnT+muWTHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSuJcacPX_gY9QUUVOv1tUi-kJcHxQcaLuw=StwQ6GPLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSVPyswdeqYWCr0K48vsX6FdbOzSfK0=hXTpkRQajzeKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMADcP4czURcWMxrYx8Lcm6RwXMXsTp5BvRUED_O-DqhOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSRVyE+2+1QdRJWte48WAReZNz80vHUVRZA30qhxNiTdQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEk5N5vQJzGmpRvi81vFT7vrJ8F_LpKPNCMOgn4jnhKjnp32Aw@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the silly question. But how can I subscribe to dev at pydata.org?

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:58 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I added you directly. I have the access to "anyone can join" but perhaps
> I'm missing something. I'll keep poking around.
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have a
>> @pydata.org e-mail address)
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > It is managed by Google groups.
>> >
>> > I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if
>> you want to admin.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
>> >> make some of us admins?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>> >> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we
>> were
>> >> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little
>> bit
>> >> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
>> >> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising
>> activities,
>> >> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
>> >> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
>> >> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
>> >> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects
>> function
>> >> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
>> >> >>> project contributions.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
>> >> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
>> >> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
>> >> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
>> >> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
>> >> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to accomplish.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
>> >> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that
>> needs
>> >> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>> >> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could
>> also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we
>> should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
>> >> >
>> >> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around
>> managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org
>> to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so
>> definitely send ideas and thoughts.
>> >> >
>> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Andy
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> - Wes
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> >> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
>> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
>> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which
>> might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>> >> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features
>> like
>> >> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>> moderation
>> >> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split
>> parts
>> >> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful
>> for
>> >> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>> >> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
>> before you
>> >> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything
>> /
>> >> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly
>> /
>> >> >>> > ...), ...
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
>> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's
>> also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure
>> that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the
>> (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not
>> particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious way.
>> Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this
>> issue in our community.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is that
>> it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse
>> respectively:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get
>> bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop
>> notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets
>> of the community, but not the community as a whole.
>> >> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it
>> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's
>> discourse today?)
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but
>> those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public,
>> archival,
>> >> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments
>> can be
>> >> >>> >> edited or deleted.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells
>> the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great
>> we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross
>> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
>> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use.
>> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a
>> great option for open source development.
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS
>> projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> @Andy
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent
>> traffic it
>> >> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>> >> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak
>> publicly
>> >> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
>> searchable).
>> >> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening
>> between the
>> >> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
>> communication
>> >> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no
>> obvious place
>> >> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
>> >> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of
>> those
>> >> >>> >> >> projects.
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to
>> raise
>> >> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or
>> scipy-user used to
>> >> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have
>> shifted.
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> - Wes
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
>> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the
>> PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder
>> if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller
>> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do
>> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
>> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <
>> njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion
>> include:
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for
>> rust
>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement
>> for
>> >> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but
>> where a ton of
>> >> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
>> adjustment
>> >> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
>> features like
>> >> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>> moderation
>> >> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can
>> retroactively split parts
>> >> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
>> useful for
>> >> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the
>> governance
>> >> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were
>> posted before you
>> >> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>> everything /
>> >> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
>> weekly /
>> >> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> -n
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at
>> least in PyTorch's
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users
>> than a place for
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is
>> probably overdue
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of
>> years
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of
>> coordination does
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc
>> basis. It would
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems
>> and possible
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is
>> the obvious first choice here.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
>> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list
>> that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're
>> doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might
>> have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree
>> that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case
>> than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people
>> could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen
>> with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering
>> these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been
>> expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other
>> than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I
>> believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be
>> considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from
>> "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an
>> e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most
>> activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken
>> off that well.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list
>> would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google
>> groups if others prefer
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den
>> Bossche
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in
>> some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a
>> list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <
>> shoyer at gmail.com:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this
>> today.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived
>> communication channels
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
>> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the
>> existing PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed
>> to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <
>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I
>> wondered what you all think
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
>> discussions that involve other
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1
>> degree of separation away
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or
>> something. Is there
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just
>> missed?
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and
>> go to fewer conferences the
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time
>> coding and writing, but I
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people
>> (asynchronously) about things, and
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Pandas-dev mailing list
> Pandas-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>
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From andy.terrel at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 00:02:54 2019
From: andy.terrel at gmail.com (Andy Ray Terrel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 23:02:54 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CAEk5N5vQJzGmpRvi81vFT7vrJ8F_LpKPNCMOgn4jnhKjnp32Aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
 <CAJPUwMC9hdif9S664eF+uhh7AHz1i8Xe=oEpJk309OO53rQktw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEQ_TvfgryjgmqkCCtF-GUp+_GOg_nLh5qSF9_mdQMNf66gEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBYzXG538pzxU_EKgSZmA6NsMo6hdiDGGHheRd5uzhDPEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCMFufJLdL00QPwUju5_ow1q=4QbWGR7eUTJZA2aQCGeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-GwQ69KwxFVrGHajOgB0qq5CzOLmtHNijDk=2P3i3nzFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-H=_p6diNcSdmgBTzDkpEbyoN--zaq0fRqtHHD3zZ1vCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJVwB=yj-5QNf6iGiUrnmJuHWupS2tF1NCGpvS5+BC9T1dxWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSrg2m-snL1LOLrhEiOLmm=SAzNJxOstSfWB1Xk8qdM_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMAW8=7Jq_5Q44KtX6_N0g8iLg3xZQUTdAGyJLQeuE1-bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSNkOSh=rZ0v76n+x3u9Ju9XQNzBWGQaaf_S+-9SBMF5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDR6CgbQZ6EdsPbDyCKw1dZ9-OTbNCCHXR1JDpM962fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMBSukj1nUswXji3OCiw4j0_7YGRxvtk4++BAnT+muWTHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSuJcacPX_gY9QUUVOv1tUi-kJcHxQcaLuw=StwQ6GPLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSVPyswdeqYWCr0K48vsX6FdbOzSfK0=hXTpkRQajzeKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMADcP4czURcWMxrYx8Lcm6RwXMXsTp5BvRUED_O-DqhOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSRVyE+2+1QdRJWte48WAReZNz80vHUVRZA30qhxNiTdQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEk5N5vQJzGmpRvi81vFT7vrJ8F_LpKPNCMOgn4jnhKjnp32Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+WonSSNSYetgvJNb=7h1w7sYHi2mE=iqR56YEJPqhJ5b2OphA@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, google groups on a custom domain seem challenging.

I believe it is set up to be public on the internet now. When I go to
https://groups.google.com and search dev at pydata.org it takes me to the
group.

Unfortunately when I just try to go straight to the page
https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forum/dev it doesn't show me
the dev at pydata.org forum.

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 6:42 PM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for the silly question. But how can I subscribe to dev at pydata.org?
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:58 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I added you directly. I have the access to "anyone can join" but perhaps
>> I'm missing something. I'll keep poking around.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have a
>>> @pydata.org e-mail address)
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > It is managed by Google groups.
>>> >
>>> > I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if
>>> you want to admin.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
>>> >> make some of us admins?
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>>> >> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we
>>> were
>>> >> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a little
>>> bit
>>> >> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
>>> >> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising
>>> activities,
>>> >> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
>>> >> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
>>> >> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions often
>>> >> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects
>>> function
>>> >> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional to
>>> >> >>> project contributions.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
>>> >> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions or
>>> >> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
>>> >> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning /
>>> >> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
>>> >> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to
>>> accomplish.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing large-scale
>>> >> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that
>>> needs
>>> >> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>>> >> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could
>>> also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we
>>> should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around
>>> managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org
>>> to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so
>>> definitely send ideas and thoughts.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > -- Andy
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> - Andy
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> - Wes
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
>>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>>> >> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
>>> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
>>> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which
>>> might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
>>> >> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
>>> features like
>>> >> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>>> moderation
>>> >> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively
>>> split parts
>>> >> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
>>> useful for
>>> >> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>>> >> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
>>> before you
>>> >> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>>> everything /
>>> >> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
>>> weekly /
>>> >> >>> > ...), ...
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
>>> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's
>>> also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure
>>> that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the
>>> (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not
>>> particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious way.
>>> Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this
>>> issue in our community.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is
>>> that it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse
>>> respectively:
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get
>>> bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop
>>> notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets
>>> of the community, but not the community as a whole.
>>> >> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it
>>> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's
>>> discourse today?)
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but
>>> those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <
>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public,
>>> archival,
>>> >> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments
>>> can be
>>> >> >>> >> edited or deleted.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that
>>> tells the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are
>>> great we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross
>>> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
>>> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use.
>>> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a
>>> great option for open source development.
>>> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS
>>> projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>>> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> > -- Andy
>>> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> @Andy
>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent
>>> traffic it
>>> >> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>>> >> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak
>>> publicly
>>> >> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
>>> searchable).
>>> >> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening
>>> between the
>>> >> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
>>> communication
>>> >> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no
>>> obvious place
>>> >> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a
>>> public
>>> >> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of
>>> those
>>> >> >>> >> >> projects.
>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to
>>> raise
>>> >> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or
>>> scipy-user used to
>>> >> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have
>>> shifted.
>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> - Wes
>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
>>> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the
>>> PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder
>>> if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller
>>> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do
>>> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
>>> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <
>>> njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion
>>> include:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum
>>> for rust
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement
>>> for
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but
>>> where a ton of
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
>>> adjustment
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
>>> features like
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>>> moderation
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can
>>> retroactively split parts
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were
>>> incredibly useful for
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the
>>> governance
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were
>>> posted before you
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>>> everything /
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a
>>> summary weekly /
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> -n
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at
>>> least in PyTorch's
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users
>>> than a place for
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list
>>> is probably overdue
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of
>>> years
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of
>>> coordination does
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc
>>> basis. It would
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems
>>> and possible
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is
>>> the obvious first choice here.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
>>> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail
>>> list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can
>>> imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming
>>> that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having
>>> a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're
>>> doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might
>>> have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree
>>> that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case
>>> than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people
>>> could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen
>>> with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering
>>> these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been
>>> expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other
>>> than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I
>>> believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be
>>> considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from
>>> "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an
>>> e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most
>>> activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken
>>> off that well.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list
>>> would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to
>>> create
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google
>>> groups if others prefer
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den
>>> Bossche
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in
>>> some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a
>>> list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <
>>> shoyer at gmail.com:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this
>>> today.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived
>>> communication channels
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
>>> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the
>>> existing PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed
>>> to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <
>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I
>>> wondered what you all think
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
>>> discussions that involve other
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1
>>> degree of separation away
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or
>>> something. Is there
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just
>>> missed?
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and
>>> go to fewer conferences the
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time
>>> coding and writing, but I
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people
>>> (asynchronously) about things, and
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> --
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>
>
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From andy.terrel at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 12:08:40 2019
From: andy.terrel at gmail.com (Andy Ray Terrel)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:08:40 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CA+WonSSNSYetgvJNb=7h1w7sYHi2mE=iqR56YEJPqhJ5b2OphA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFB188CC-3D12-421C-9823-B508ACDC6833@icloud.com>
 <CAJPUwMC9hdif9S664eF+uhh7AHz1i8Xe=oEpJk309OO53rQktw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEQ_TvfgryjgmqkCCtF-GUp+_GOg_nLh5qSF9_mdQMNf66gEKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBYzXG538pzxU_EKgSZmA6NsMo6hdiDGGHheRd5uzhDPEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCMFufJLdL00QPwUju5_ow1q=4QbWGR7eUTJZA2aQCGeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-GwQ69KwxFVrGHajOgB0qq5CzOLmtHNijDk=2P3i3nzFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMB_ZSuKax+Y_4ArpwOTkGXL4DsYh5NPNhBBeJ0b58LmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACqYdy9Nq5kBXMBx_1W9+KGiPQiN4pNAB4HSvo0Ze-c8117Yow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-H=_p6diNcSdmgBTzDkpEbyoN--zaq0fRqtHHD3zZ1vCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJVwB=yj-5QNf6iGiUrnmJuHWupS2tF1NCGpvS5+BC9T1dxWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSrg2m-snL1LOLrhEiOLmm=SAzNJxOstSfWB1Xk8qdM_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMAW8=7Jq_5Q44KtX6_N0g8iLg3xZQUTdAGyJLQeuE1-bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSNkOSh=rZ0v76n+x3u9Ju9XQNzBWGQaaf_S+-9SBMF5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDR6CgbQZ6EdsPbDyCKw1dZ9-OTbNCCHXR1JDpM962fJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ8oX-G8q16LjpF5UyWnjDvAkgFU7CVBEvtXigmh6Xa83f2Wjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMBSukj1nUswXji3OCiw4j0_7YGRxvtk4++BAnT+muWTHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSuJcacPX_gY9QUUVOv1tUi-kJcHxQcaLuw=StwQ6GPLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSVPyswdeqYWCr0K48vsX6FdbOzSfK0=hXTpkRQajzeKg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+WonSRVyE+2+1QdRJWte48WAReZNz80vHUVRZA30qhxNiTdQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEk5N5vQJzGmpRvi81vFT7vrJ8F_LpKPNCMOgn4jnhKjnp32Aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSNSYetgvJNb=7h1w7sYHi2mE=iqR56YEJPqhJ5b2OphA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+WonSQSaXBzEuoieJjmDmMGwxWADkQ_uiFtSdKf4Y2jvMKi+g@mail.gmail.com>

Well seeing we have folks signing up for the list I think my instructions
were sufficient. If anyone knows how to get a single click sign up in
google groups I'm all ears.

-- Andy

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:02 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yeah, google groups on a custom domain seem challenging.
>
> I believe it is set up to be public on the internet now. When I go to
> https://groups.google.com and search dev at pydata.org it takes me to the
> group.
>
> Unfortunately when I just try to go straight to the page
> https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forum/dev it doesn't show
> me the dev at pydata.org forum.
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 6:42 PM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for the silly question. But how can I subscribe to dev at pydata.org?
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:58 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I added you directly. I have the access to "anyone can join" but perhaps
>>> I'm missing something. I'll keep poking around.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have a
>>>> @pydata.org e-mail address)
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > It is managed by Google groups.
>>>> >
>>>> > I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if
>>>> you want to admin.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can you
>>>> >> make some of us admins?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thanks
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <
>>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>>>> >> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we
>>>> were
>>>> >> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a
>>>> little bit
>>>> >> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more high
>>>> >> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising
>>>> activities,
>>>> >> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
>>>> >> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project to
>>>> >> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions
>>>> often
>>>> >> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects
>>>> function
>>>> >> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional
>>>> to
>>>> >> >>> project contributions.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
>>>> >> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions
>>>> or
>>>> >> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
>>>> >> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping / planning
>>>> /
>>>> >> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer) confusion
>>>> >> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to
>>>> accomplish.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing
>>>> large-scale
>>>> >> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that
>>>> needs
>>>> >> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>>>> >> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could
>>>> also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we
>>>> should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around
>>>> managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp pydata.org
>>>> to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so
>>>> definitely send ideas and thoughts.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -- Andy
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> - Andy
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> - Wes
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
>>>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>>>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
>>>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
>>>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>>>> >> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
>>>> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might have
>>>> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which
>>>> might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
>>>> adjustment
>>>> >> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
>>>> features like
>>>> >> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>>>> moderation
>>>> >> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively
>>>> split parts
>>>> >> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
>>>> useful for
>>>> >> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
>>>> >> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
>>>> before you
>>>> >> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>>>> everything /
>>>> >> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
>>>> weekly /
>>>> >> >>> > ...), ...
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
>>>> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's
>>>> also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to make sure
>>>> that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the
>>>> (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not
>>>> particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious way.
>>>> Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into this
>>>> issue in our community.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is
>>>> that it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and discourse
>>>> respectively:
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up, get
>>>> bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop
>>>> notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small subsets
>>>> of the community, but not the community as a whole.
>>>> >> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and it
>>>> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with Jupyter's
>>>> discourse today?)
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but
>>>> those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <
>>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public,
>>>> archival,
>>>> >> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments
>>>> can be
>>>> >> >>> >> edited or deleted.
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that
>>>> tells the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are
>>>> great we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross
>>>> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
>>>> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great use.
>>>> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a
>>>> great option for open source development.
>>>> >> >>> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS
>>>> projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>>>> >> >>> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> > -- Andy
>>>> >> >>> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
>>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> @Andy
>>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent
>>>> traffic it
>>>> >> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>>>> >> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak
>>>> publicly
>>>> >> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
>>>> searchable).
>>>> >> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening
>>>> between the
>>>> >> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
>>>> communication
>>>> >> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no
>>>> obvious place
>>>> >> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a
>>>> public
>>>> >> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of
>>>> those
>>>> >> >>> >> >> projects.
>>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to
>>>> raise
>>>> >> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or
>>>> scipy-user used to
>>>> >> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have
>>>> shifted.
>>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> - Wes
>>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
>>>> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting
>>>> the PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I
>>>> wonder if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for
>>>> folks?
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller
>>>> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do
>>>> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
>>>> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <
>>>> njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion
>>>> include:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum
>>>> for rust
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement
>>>> for
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but
>>>> where a ton of
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
>>>> adjustment
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
>>>> features like
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...),
>>>> solid moderation
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can
>>>> retroactively split parts
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were
>>>> incredibly useful for
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the
>>>> governance
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were
>>>> posted before you
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>>>> everything /
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a
>>>> summary weekly /
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> -n
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at
>>>> least in PyTorch's
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users
>>>> than a place for
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list
>>>> is probably overdue
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple
>>>> of years
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of
>>>> coordination does
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other
>>>> ad-hoc basis. It would
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems
>>>> and possible
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is
>>>> the obvious first choice here.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
>>>> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail
>>>> list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can
>>>> imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming
>>>> that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having
>>>> a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're
>>>> doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might
>>>> have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree
>>>> that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case
>>>> than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people
>>>> could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen
>>>> with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering
>>>> these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been
>>>> expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other
>>>> than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I
>>>> believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be
>>>> considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from
>>>> "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an
>>>> e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most
>>>> activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken
>>>> off that well.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list
>>>> would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
>>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to
>>>> create
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google
>>>> groups if others prefer
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den
>>>> Bossche
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in
>>>> some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a
>>>> list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer
>>>> <shoyer at gmail.com:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this
>>>> today.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
>>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived
>>>> communication channels
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
>>>> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the
>>>> existing PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed
>>>> to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney
>>>> <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I
>>>> wondered what you all think
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
>>>> discussions that involve other
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1
>>>> degree of separation away
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev",
>>>> or something. Is there
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just
>>>> missed?
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and
>>>> go to fewer conferences the
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time
>>>> coding and writing, but I
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people
>>>> (asynchronously) about things, and
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> --
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>
>>
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From irv at princeton.com  Fri Jan  4 12:32:46 2019
From: irv at princeton.com (Irv Lustig)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 12:32:46 -0500
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Pandas-dev Digest, Vol 68, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1131.1546621759.4818.pandas-dev@python.org>
References: <mailman.1131.1546621759.4818.pandas-dev@python.org>
Message-ID: <CAG4hgvO-3FiQ8VbtENvXGgA15Zkci9QHVdXbjrXHqYQHt5VXPQ@mail.gmail.com>

I subscribed, but I don't think you will get a "one-click" method of doing
so.  It's because of how Google does permissions.  In my case, since my
company uses Google Enterprise to manage emails, when I signed up, I had to
give permission to the Google group to see my "personal" information.

What I see is this:
1) If you go to https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forum/dev,
there is a "Join group" button that you click to join the group, give
permissions, and then decide how you want to receive digests, etc. Note -
you must be signed into Google to see the "Join group" button.
2) If you go to https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forumsearch/,
you will see the "dev" forum listed there.

-Dr-Irv




On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 12:09 PM <pandas-dev-request at python.org> wrote:

>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:08:40 -0600
> From: Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> To: Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
> Cc: Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>, pandas-dev at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics
>         ecosystem developers?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CA+WonSQSaXBzEuoieJjmDmMGwxWADkQ_uiFtSdKf4Y2jvMKi+g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Well seeing we have folks signing up for the list I think my instructions
> were sufficient. If anyone knows how to get a single click sign up in
> google groups I'm all ears.
>
> -- Andy
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:02 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, google groups on a custom domain seem challenging.
> >
> > I believe it is set up to be public on the internet now. When I go to
> > https://groups.google.com and search dev at pydata.org it takes me to the
> > group.
> >
> > Unfortunately when I just try to go straight to the page
> > https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forum/dev it doesn't show
> > me the dev at pydata.org forum.
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 6:42 PM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry for the silly question. But how can I subscribe to dev at pydata.org
> ?
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:58 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I added you directly. I have the access to "anyone can join" but
> perhaps
> >>> I'm missing something. I'll keep poking around.
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have a
> >>>> @pydata.org e-mail address)
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
> andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > It is managed by Google groups.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know if
> >>>> you want to admin.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can
> you
> >>>> >> make some of us admins?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Thanks
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <
> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
> >>>> >> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If we
> >>>> were
> >>>> >> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a
> >>>> little bit
> >>>> >> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more
> high
> >>>> >> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising
> >>>> activities,
> >>>> >> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the major
> >>>> >> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each project
> to
> >>>> >> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions
> >>>> often
> >>>> >> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects
> >>>> function
> >>>> >> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued proportional
> >>>> to
> >>>> >> >>> project contributions.
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to historical
> >>>> >> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are questions
> >>>> or
> >>>> >> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible /
> >>>> >> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping /
> planning
> >>>> /
> >>>> >> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer)
> confusion
> >>>> >> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to
> >>>> accomplish.
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing
> >>>> large-scale
> >>>> >> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that
> >>>> needs
> >>>> >> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
> >>>> >> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could
> >>>> also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we
> >>>> should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around
> >>>> managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp
> pydata.org
> >>>> to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so
> >>>> definitely send ideas and thoughts.
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > -- Andy
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> - Andy
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> - Wes
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <
> >>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
> >>>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
> >>>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming
> that,
> >>>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
> >>>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have
> value.
> >>>> >> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
> >>>> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might
> have
> >>>> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
> >>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel which
> >>>> might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
> >>>> adjustment
> >>>> >> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
> >>>> features like
> >>>> >> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
> >>>> moderation
> >>>> >> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively
> >>>> split parts
> >>>> >> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
> >>>> useful for
> >>>> >> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the governance
> >>>> >> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
> >>>> before you
> >>>> >> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
> >>>> everything /
> >>>> >> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
> >>>> weekly /
> >>>> >> >>> > ...), ...
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
> >>>> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's
> >>>> also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to
> make sure
> >>>> that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the
> >>>> (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not
> >>>> particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious
> way.
> >>>> Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into
> this
> >>>> issue in our community.
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is
> >>>> that it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and
> discourse
> >>>> respectively:
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up,
> get
> >>>> bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop
> >>>> notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small
> subsets
> >>>> of the community, but not the community as a whole.
> >>>> >> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and
> it
> >>>> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with
> Jupyter's
> >>>> discourse today?)
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously, but
> >>>> those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
> >>>> >> >>> >
> >>>> >> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <
> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
> >>>> >> >>> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public,
> >>>> archival,
> >>>> >> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and comments
> >>>> can be
> >>>> >> >>> >> edited or deleted.
> >>>> >> >>> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that
> >>>> tells the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing
> lists are
> >>>> great we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up for
> cross
> >>>> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
> >>>> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great
> use.
> >>>> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing
> isn't a
> >>>> great option for open source development.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS
> >>>> projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> > -- Andy
> >>>> >> >>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> @Andy
> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on
> recent
> >>>> traffic it
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to
> speak
> >>>> publicly
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public, archived,
> >>>> searchable).
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions happening
> >>>> between the
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
> >>>> communication
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no
> >>>> obvious place
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a
> >>>> public
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of
> >>>> those
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> projects.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place
> to
> >>>> raise
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or
> >>>> scipy-user used to
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity
> have
> >>>> shifted.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> - Wes
> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
> >>>> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting
> >>>> the PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I
> >>>> wonder if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting
> for
> >>>> folks?
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller
> >>>> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we
> do
> >>>> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
> >>>> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <
> >>>> njs at pobox.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion
> >>>> include:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum
> >>>> for rust
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential
> replacement
> >>>> for
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but
> >>>> where a ton of
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
> >>>> adjustment
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of
> valuable
> >>>> features like
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...),
> >>>> solid moderation
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can
> >>>> retroactively split parts
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were
> >>>> incredibly useful for
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the
> >>>> governance
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were
> >>>> posted before you
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
> >>>> everything /
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a
> >>>> summary weekly /
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> -n
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
> >>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at
> >>>> least in PyTorch's
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users
> >>>> than a place for
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list
> >>>> is probably overdue
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple
> >>>> of years
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot
> of
> >>>> coordination does
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other
> >>>> ad-hoc basis. It would
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level
> problems
> >>>> and possible
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is
> >>>> the obvious first choice here.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
> >>>> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail
> >>>> list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I
> can
> >>>> imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic
> programming
> >>>> that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.
> Having
> >>>> a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have
> value.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're
> >>>> doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations
> might
> >>>> have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote
> them,
> >>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I
> agree
> >>>> that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different
> use case
> >>>> than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that
> people
> >>>> could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen
> >>>> with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are
> considering
> >>>> these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been
> >>>> expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process,
> other
> >>>> than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I
> >>>> believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be
> >>>> considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to
> y'all.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from
> >>>> "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an
> >>>> e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the
> most
> >>>> activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really
> taken
> >>>> off that well.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list
> >>>> would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to
> >>>> create
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google
> >>>> groups if others prefer
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den
> >>>> Bossche
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools
> (in
> >>>> some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on
> such a
> >>>> list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything
> existing.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan
> Hoyer
> >>>> <shoyer at gmail.com:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this
> >>>> today.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes
> McKinney <
> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived
> >>>> communication channels
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
> >>>> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the
> >>>> existing PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it
> seemed
> >>>> to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes
> McKinney
> >>>> <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I
> >>>> wondered what you all think
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
> >>>> discussions that involve other
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally
> 1
> >>>> degree of separation away
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev",
> >>>> or something. Is there
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just
> >>>> missed?
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less
> and
> >>>> go to fewer conferences the
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more
> time
> >>>> coding and writing, but I
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people
> >>>> (asynchronously) about things, and
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> --
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>>> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >>>
> >>
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From andy.terrel at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 12:49:22 2019
From: andy.terrel at gmail.com (Andy Ray Terrel)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:49:22 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Pandas-dev Digest, Vol 68, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <CAG4hgvO-3FiQ8VbtENvXGgA15Zkci9QHVdXbjrXHqYQHt5VXPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1131.1546621759.4818.pandas-dev@python.org>
 <CAG4hgvO-3FiQ8VbtENvXGgA15Zkci9QHVdXbjrXHqYQHt5VXPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+WonSTusTYgYEF85oR1r9G9ezg+XFZWhc-0msEwvzVpk1YAXA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the heads up. If this isn't a good solution I can set up another
system.

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 11:33 AM Irv Lustig <irv at princeton.com> wrote:

> I subscribed, but I don't think you will get a "one-click" method of doing
> so.  It's because of how Google does permissions.  In my case, since my
> company uses Google Enterprise to manage emails, when I signed up, I had to
> give permission to the Google group to see my "personal" information.
>
> What I see is this:
> 1) If you go to https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forum/dev,
> there is a "Join group" button that you click to join the group, give
> permissions, and then decide how you want to receive digests, etc. Note -
> you must be signed into Google to see the "Join group" button.
> 2) If you go to
> https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forumsearch/, you will see
> the "dev" forum listed there.
>
> -Dr-Irv
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 12:09 PM <pandas-dev-request at python.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:08:40 -0600
>> From: Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> To: Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>, pandas-dev at python.org
>> Subject: Re: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics
>>         ecosystem developers?
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> CA+WonSQSaXBzEuoieJjmDmMGwxWADkQ_uiFtSdKf4Y2jvMKi+g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Well seeing we have folks signing up for the list I think my instructions
>> were sufficient. If anyone knows how to get a single click sign up in
>> google groups I'm all ears.
>>
>> -- Andy
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:02 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Yeah, google groups on a custom domain seem challenging.
>> >
>> > I believe it is set up to be public on the internet now. When I go to
>> > https://groups.google.com and search dev at pydata.org it takes me to the
>> > group.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately when I just try to go straight to the page
>> > https://groups.google.com/a/pydata.org/forum/#!forum/dev it doesn't
>> show
>> > me the dev at pydata.org forum.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 6:42 PM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sorry for the silly question. But how can I subscribe to
>> dev at pydata.org?
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:58 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I added you directly. I have the access to "anyone can join" but
>> perhaps
>> >>> I'm missing something. I'll keep poking around.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:49 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I got a permission error because it's a private domain (I don't have
>> a
>> >>>> @pydata.org e-mail address)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> andy.terrel at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > It is managed by Google groups.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > I can definitely make others admins. Just join up and let me know
>> if
>> >>>> you want to admin.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:34 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Is it managed by Google groups or is it mailman or Pony Mail? Can
>> you
>> >>>> >> make some of us admins?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Thanks
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:53 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:07 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:28 AM Wes McKinney <
>> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> As a discussion list intended for project developers, I am not
>> >>>> >> >>> anticipating so much noise that people become disengaged. If
>> we
>> >>>> were
>> >>>> >> >>> creating a forum to collect user feedback, that would be a
>> >>>> little bit
>> >>>> >> >>> different. I'm more looking to encourage the sharing of more
>> high
>> >>>> >> >>> level project planning, roadmaps and goals, fund raising
>> >>>> activities,
>> >>>> >> >>> and other matters related to the health and growth of the
>> major
>> >>>> >> >>> community projects. It would be really useful for each
>> project to
>> >>>> >> >>> state a list of goals for some future horizon (e.g. 1 year).
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> I have observed that some of these cross-project discussions
>> >>>> often
>> >>>> >> >>> only happen in person, or on an ad hoc basis on GitHub issues.
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> User feedback can be helpful, but in practice most projects
>> >>>> function
>> >>>> >> >>> as "do-ocracies" where opinions are roughly valued
>> proportional
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> >> >>> project contributions.
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> It would also be useful to be able to point users to
>> historical
>> >>>> >> >>> discussions amongst project developers when there are
>> questions
>> >>>> or
>> >>>> >> >>> concerns. My anecdotal experience is that the lack of visible
>> /
>> >>>> >> >>> centralized cross-project discussions and roadmapping /
>> planning
>> >>>> /
>> >>>> >> >>> goal discussion has at times led to user (or developer)
>> confusion
>> >>>> >> >>> about what different groups of developers are trying to
>> >>>> accomplish.
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> The concerns raised seem to be mostly about optimizing
>> >>>> large-scale
>> >>>> >> >>> communications. Let's first see if there is communication that
>> >>>> needs
>> >>>> >> >>> to be optimized. Even if we add additional tools to facilitate
>> >>>> >> >>> communications, I think we still need a mailing list.
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> Have we decided which mailing list we desire? I forgot we could
>> >>>> also just make it dev at pydata.org if we like. In general I think, we
>> >>>> should write up a governance document on pydata as a whole.
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I've created a list dev at pydata.org if we want to use it.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the governance front, Leah is putting together a plan around
>> >>>> managing pydata conferences going. We also wanted to revamp
>> pydata.org
>> >>>> to reflect more of the development community around the ecosystem so
>> >>>> definitely send ideas and thoughts.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -- Andy
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> - Andy
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> - Wes
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>> >>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > > I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail.
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > There were some issues raised before:
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
>> >>>> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
>> >>>> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming
>> that,
>> >>>> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having
>> a
>> >>>> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have
>> value.
>> >>>> >> >>> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing
>> >>>> long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations might
>> have
>> >>>> long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them,
>> >>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > And also some benefits of discourse raised by Nathaniel
>> which
>> >>>> might be turned around to be interpreted as concerns with e-mail.
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
>> >>>> adjustment
>> >>>> >> >>> > compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable
>> >>>> features like
>> >>>> >> >>> > multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid
>> >>>> moderation
>> >>>> >> >>> > tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively
>> >>>> split parts
>> >>>> >> >>> > of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly
>> >>>> useful for
>> >>>> >> >>> > taking the temperature of the community during the
>> governance
>> >>>> >> >>> > discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted
>> >>>> before you
>> >>>> >> >>> > joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>> >>>> everything /
>> >>>> >> >>> > email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary
>> >>>> weekly /
>> >>>> >> >>> > ...), ...
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > > It is public, archival, and append-only. GitHub issues are
>> >>>> non-archival and comments can be edited or deleted.
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > That's certainly true of GitHub issues.  I suspect that it's
>> >>>> also true of Discourse (though I'd have to go through the docs to
>> make sure
>> >>>> that it wasn't possible to turn it off).  From my perspective the
>> >>>> (in)ability to edit or delete comments isn't a big deal.  I'm not
>> >>>> particularly concerned with people modifying history in a nefarious
>> way.
>> >>>> Though perhaps my viewpoint here is naive.  I haven't yet run into
>> this
>> >>>> issue in our community.
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > I think that the biggest benefit to using an e-mail list is
>> >>>> that it's a well known technology with a low barrier to adoption.
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > I anticipate two likely failure modes for e-mail and
>> discourse
>> >>>> respectively:
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > EMail: conversation is too diffuse so that people sign up,
>> get
>> >>>> bored listening to things that don't interest them, and then stop
>> >>>> notifications.  The pydata mailing list ends up being used by small
>> subsets
>> >>>> of the community, but not the community as a whole.
>> >>>> >> >>> > Discourse: it's too new/unknown so that no one signs up and
>> it
>> >>>> doesn't reach critical mass.  (this seems to be happening with
>> Jupyter's
>> >>>> discourse today?)
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > There are lots of other pros and cons to each, obviously,
>> but
>> >>>> those two outcomes are, I think, the most troublesome.
>> >>>> >> >>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 8:13 AM Wes McKinney <
>> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> Having dev.pydata.org sounds fine to me.
>> >>>> >> >>> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> I don't see what is wrong with using e-mail. It is public,
>> >>>> archival,
>> >>>> >> >>> >> and append-only. GitHub issues are non-archival and
>> comments
>> >>>> can be
>> >>>> >> >>> >> edited or deleted.
>> >>>> >> >>> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:26 AM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> > I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that
>> >>>> tells the folks where conversations are happening. While mailing
>> lists are
>> >>>> great we might consider just having a github issue tracker set up
>> for cross
>> >>>> ecosystem bugs or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the
>> >>>> numfocus discourse and zulip server as they didn't really have great
>> use.
>> >>>> Chris Holdgraf suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing
>> isn't a
>> >>>> great option for open source development.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> > Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS
>> >>>> projects ecosystem so I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> > -- Andy
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <
>> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> @Andy
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on
>> recent
>> >>>> traffic it
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to
>> speak
>> >>>> publicly
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> with one another (where discussions are public,
>> archived,
>> >>>> searchable).
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> I have observed that there are many discussions
>> happening
>> >>>> between the
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc
>> >>>> communication
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no
>> >>>> obvious place
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a
>> >>>> public
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of
>> >>>> those
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> projects.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place
>> to
>> >>>> raise
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or
>> >>>> scipy-user used to
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity
>> have
>> >>>> shifted.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> - Wes
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <
>> >>>> andy.terrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
>> >>>> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting
>> >>>> the PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem,
>> I
>> >>>> wonder if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting
>> for
>> >>>> folks?
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > It is also my understanding that there will be a
>> fuller
>> >>>> steering committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose
>> we do
>> >>>> the same for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and
>> >>>> github repos but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > -- Andy
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <
>> >>>> njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion
>> >>>> include:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum
>> >>>> for rust
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential
>> replacement
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but
>> >>>> where a ton of
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> the python governance discussion happened
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of
>> >>>> adjustment
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of
>> valuable
>> >>>> features like
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...),
>> >>>> solid moderation
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can
>> >>>> retroactively split parts
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were
>> >>>> incredibly useful for
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> taking the temperature of the community during the
>> >>>> governance
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were
>> >>>> posted before you
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me
>> >>>> everything /
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a
>> >>>> summary weekly /
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> ...), ...
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> -n
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <
>> >>>> mrocklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at
>> >>>> least in PyTorch's
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users
>> >>>> than a place for
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing
>> list
>> >>>> is probably overdue
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple
>> >>>> of years
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot
>> of
>> >>>> coordination does
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other
>> >>>> ad-hoc basis. It would
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level
>> problems
>> >>>> and possible
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> solutions.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list
>> is
>> >>>> the obvious first choice here.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for
>> >>>> consideration.  This is for a couple reasons:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail
>> >>>> list that encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I
>> can
>> >>>> imagine lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic
>> programming
>> >>>> that, while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.
>> Having
>> >>>> a service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have
>> value.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If
>> we're
>> >>>> doing long-range cross-project coordination then those conversations
>> might
>> >>>> have long term value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote
>> them,
>> >>>> subscribe to them, and so on.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I
>> agree
>> >>>> that it is used more as a user forum, which I agree is a different
>> use case
>> >>>> than what Wes is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that
>> people
>> >>>> could get a sense of what an active system looks like.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen
>> >>>> with a broader set of people.  I believe that other groups are
>> considering
>> >>>> these topics as well and may have thoughts beyond those that have
>> been
>> >>>> expressed here.  I'm not sure how best to bootstrap this process,
>> other
>> >>>> than an e-mail to maybe the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a
>> tweet?
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I
>> >>>> believe, but neither is particularly active. Whether those should be
>> >>>> considered possible starting points or cautionary tales I leave to
>> y'all.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement
>> from
>> >>>> "how about discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an
>> >>>> e-mail list?".  Discourse is the service around which I've seen the
>> most
>> >>>> activity recently but I agree that in our community, it hasn't
>> really taken
>> >>>> off that well.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list
>> >>>> would be great.  Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Best,
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > -matt
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <
>> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to
>> >>>> create
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google
>> >>>> groups if others prefer
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> that
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den
>> >>>> Bossche
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools
>> (in
>> >>>> some way related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on
>> such a
>> >>>> list. I think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything
>> existing.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Joris
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan
>> Hoyer
>> >>>> <shoyer at gmail.com:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like
>> this
>> >>>> today.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes
>> McKinney <
>> >>>> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived
>> >>>> communication channels
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd
>> <
>> >>>> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the
>> >>>> existing PyData conferences? I?ve only been to the one in LA but it
>> seemed
>> >>>> to be somewhat in the direction of what you are asking for.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes
>> McKinney
>> >>>> <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I
>> >>>> wondered what you all think
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public
>> >>>> discussions that involve other
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are
>> generally 1
>> >>>> degree of separation away
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev",
>> >>>> or something. Is there
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just
>> >>>> missed?
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less
>> and
>> >>>> go to fewer conferences the
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more
>> time
>> >>>> coding and writing, but I
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people
>> >>>> (asynchronously) about things, and
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >
>> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>
>> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>
>> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >>
>> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> --
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> >> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>>> >> >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> >>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>> >>>
>> >>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pandas-dev/attachments/20190104/9e45cc84/attachment.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Pandas-dev Digest, Vol 68, Issue 6
>> *****************************************
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Pandas-dev mailing list
> Pandas-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>
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From rth.yurchak at pm.me  Fri Jan  4 14:36:40 2019
From: rth.yurchak at pm.me (Roman Yurchak)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 19:36:40 +0000
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem
 developers?
In-Reply-To: <CA+WonSQSaXBzEuoieJjmDmMGwxWADkQ_uiFtSdKf4Y2jvMKi+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPUwMCMoEAR=g6CEYpBZiLuUSLdnsCydw5+-UMNbUQ6_o2DvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSLmWqJ1gby1t0wF_eZiAVizx_z2P3_sHpEVh0uHzTcyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMCGZsrSJcXW7W71pO79ekYh8H_TbTGRJXnibqBO3XddBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSVPyswdeqYWCr0K48vsX6FdbOzSfK0=hXTpkRQajzeKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMADcP4czURcWMxrYx8Lcm6RwXMXsTp5BvRUED_O-DqhOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSRVyE+2+1QdRJWte48WAReZNz80vHUVRZA30qhxNiTdQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEk5N5vQJzGmpRvi81vFT7vrJ8F_LpKPNCMOgn4jnhKjnp32Aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSSNSYetgvJNb=7h1w7sYHi2mE=iqR56YEJPqhJ5b2OphA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+WonSQSaXBzEuoieJjmDmMGwxWADkQ_uiFtSdKf4Y2jvMKi+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TrwXdPO2luTA2iQWkSLiVzAgr6vX9Oqx6ccF206KXT3lzEQtOqXSHhOxsUM2jc1tXtWJ3qlxfw4QQaKQ4XQ46gFKIzufkyiLNePRSMGTrP0=@pm.me>

Also using this list currently more or less requires a Google Account.

This may be problematic for people either unable to do so (e.g. located 
in China) or unwilling to use GMail / Google associated email address 
for other reasons.

As much as I find less convenient to search mailing lists @python.org, 
they don't have such restrictions.

-- 
Roman

On 04/01/2019 19:49, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:> Thanks for the heads up. If 
this isn't a good solution I can set up
 > another system.
 >
 > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 11:33 AM Irv Lustig <irv at princeton.com
 > <mailto:irv at princeton.com>> wrote:
 >
 >     I subscribed, but I don't think you will get a "one-click" method of
 >     doing so.  It's because of how Google does permissions.  In my case,
 >     since my company uses Google Enterprise to manage emails, when I
 >     signed up, I had to give permission to the Google group to see my
 >     "personal" information.


From jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 21:13:24 2019
From: jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com (Joris Van den Bossche)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 03:13:24 +0100
Subject: [Pandas-dev] [pydata] Is there a place for general discussion
 of pandas?
In-Reply-To: <b6cc7629-b603-4f19-bb9f-72b86b100b3a@googlegroups.com>
References: <79faa965-c9e2-4819-b72b-136ea87b3aed@googlegroups.com>
 <1546813160.1968.52.camel@pietrobattiston.it>
 <b6cc7629-b603-4f19-bb9f-72b86b100b3a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CALQtMBZApu87fHqj0kw2PMsKyd+VV1QhF5133B+e=i-UmM7OJw@mail.gmail.com>

Op ma 7 jan. 2019 om 01:05 schreef John E <eiler13 at gmail.com>:

> On this I think I disagree: there are actually 3 "places":
>> - the bug tracker ("discussion issues" are not uncommon)
>> - the pandas-dev mailing list (probably a better choice for more
>> articulated discussions on pandas development)
>> - the occasional pandas development hangouts
>>
>
> I didn't even know about the mailing list but that is obviously dev only.
> I only found it by googling and have not seen it generally publicized and
> to be clear I certainly think there should be dev only channels that avoid
> the riff raff like me.  ;-)
>
> We indeed could do a better job communicating about those different
channels.
But, about pandas-dev mailing list: it is indeed for development-related
questions, but that does not mean it only to be used by "developers" (in
the sense of developing pandas). For me, what you mention about users that
want to interact with developers about eg the roadmap, that is something
perfectly fitting to discuss on the pandas-dev mailing list.

In general, it would be nice to see more interaction between interested
users and direct developers on roadmap and API discussions, and of the
current channels, I think pandas-dev is the most appropriate for that at
this time (if it is something not specific enough to be discussed on a
github issue).

That doesn't mean we can't think about other / better channels, though.
There is currently some exploration of discourse in a couple of python
communities (eg core python devs, jupyter)
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From tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 09:26:22 2019
From: tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com (Tom Augspurger)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 08:26:22 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] [pydata] Is there a place for general discussion
 of pandas?
In-Reply-To: <CALQtMBZApu87fHqj0kw2PMsKyd+VV1QhF5133B+e=i-UmM7OJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <79faa965-c9e2-4819-b72b-136ea87b3aed@googlegroups.com>
 <1546813160.1968.52.camel@pietrobattiston.it>
 <b6cc7629-b603-4f19-bb9f-72b86b100b3a@googlegroups.com>
 <CALQtMBZApu87fHqj0kw2PMsKyd+VV1QhF5133B+e=i-UmM7OJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE1aY-m_zF1LcF=u6m7mXHs3Bcn7uO2MY+nShvZ8j0tDph0KTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed with Joris here.

IMO, your "(2) There isn't really any place for users to interact with
developers to discuss longer term plans (e.g. version 0.25, version 2.0)"
is a perfect topic for the pandas-dev mailing list.

I opened https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas-website/pull/69 to update our
community page, and tried to summarize some of the sentiments
from this thread. Please share your thoughts if you have any, and maybe
subscribe to the discussion there.

Tom

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 8:13 PM Joris Van den Bossche <
jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:

> Op ma 7 jan. 2019 om 01:05 schreef John E <eiler13 at gmail.com>:
>
>> On this I think I disagree: there are actually 3 "places":
>>> - the bug tracker ("discussion issues" are not uncommon)
>>> - the pandas-dev mailing list (probably a better choice for more
>>> articulated discussions on pandas development)
>>> - the occasional pandas development hangouts
>>>
>>
>> I didn't even know about the mailing list but that is obviously dev
>> only.  I only found it by googling and have not seen it generally
>> publicized and to be clear I certainly think there should be dev only
>> channels that avoid the riff raff like me.  ;-)
>>
>> We indeed could do a better job communicating about those different
> channels.
> But, about pandas-dev mailing list: it is indeed for development-related
> questions, but that does not mean it only to be used by "developers" (in
> the sense of developing pandas). For me, what you mention about users that
> want to interact with developers about eg the roadmap, that is something
> perfectly fitting to discuss on the pandas-dev mailing list.
>
> In general, it would be nice to see more interaction between interested
> users and direct developers on roadmap and API discussions, and of the
> current channels, I think pandas-dev is the most appropriate for that at
> this time (if it is something not specific enough to be discussed on a
> github issue).
>
> That doesn't mean we can't think about other / better channels, though.
> There is currently some exploration of discourse in a couple of python
> communities (eg core python devs, jupyter)
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "PyData" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
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From matthew.brett at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 09:39:24 2019
From: matthew.brett at gmail.com (Matthew Brett)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:39:24 +0000
Subject: [Pandas-dev] [pydata] Is there a place for general discussion
 of pandas?
In-Reply-To: <CAE1aY-m_zF1LcF=u6m7mXHs3Bcn7uO2MY+nShvZ8j0tDph0KTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <79faa965-c9e2-4819-b72b-136ea87b3aed@googlegroups.com>
 <1546813160.1968.52.camel@pietrobattiston.it>
 <b6cc7629-b603-4f19-bb9f-72b86b100b3a@googlegroups.com>
 <CALQtMBZApu87fHqj0kw2PMsKyd+VV1QhF5133B+e=i-UmM7OJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE1aY-m_zF1LcF=u6m7mXHs3Bcn7uO2MY+nShvZ8j0tDph0KTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH6Pt5pHWT0b5HEUKhqYxXNoi1QQQ83H-nvuaJK7OJuzuLUhEg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

How about renaming the "pandas-dev" mailing list to "pandas"?  It
sounds as if the "-dev" is discouraging the kind of discussion the OP
is hoping for.

Cheers,

Matthew

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 2:26 PM Tom Augspurger
<tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Agreed with Joris here.
>
> IMO, your "(2) There isn't really any place for users to interact with developers to discuss longer term plans (e.g. version 0.25, version 2.0)"
> is a perfect topic for the pandas-dev mailing list.
>
> I opened https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas-website/pull/69 to update our community page, and tried to summarize some of the sentiments
> from this thread. Please share your thoughts if you have any, and maybe subscribe to the discussion there.
>
> Tom
>
> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 8:13 PM Joris Van den Bossche <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Op ma 7 jan. 2019 om 01:05 schreef John E <eiler13 at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>> On this I think I disagree: there are actually 3 "places":
>>>> - the bug tracker ("discussion issues" are not uncommon)
>>>> - the pandas-dev mailing list (probably a better choice for more
>>>> articulated discussions on pandas development)
>>>> - the occasional pandas development hangouts
>>>
>>>
>>> I didn't even know about the mailing list but that is obviously dev only.  I only found it by googling and have not seen it generally publicized and to be clear I certainly think there should be dev only channels that avoid the riff raff like me.  ;-)
>>>
>> We indeed could do a better job communicating about those different channels.
>> But, about pandas-dev mailing list: it is indeed for development-related questions, but that does not mean it only to be used by "developers" (in the sense of developing pandas). For me, what you mention about users that want to interact with developers about eg the roadmap, that is something perfectly fitting to discuss on the pandas-dev mailing list.
>>
>> In general, it would be nice to see more interaction between interested users and direct developers on roadmap and API discussions, and of the current channels, I think pandas-dev is the most appropriate for that at this time (if it is something not specific enough to be discussed on a github issue).
>>
>> That doesn't mean we can't think about other / better channels, though. There is currently some exploration of discourse in a couple of python communities (eg core python devs, jupyter)
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PyData" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PyData" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

From jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 09:49:13 2019
From: jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com (Joris Van den Bossche)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:49:13 +0100
Subject: [Pandas-dev] [pydata] Is there a place for general discussion
 of pandas?
In-Reply-To: <CAH6Pt5pHWT0b5HEUKhqYxXNoi1QQQ83H-nvuaJK7OJuzuLUhEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <79faa965-c9e2-4819-b72b-136ea87b3aed@googlegroups.com>
 <1546813160.1968.52.camel@pietrobattiston.it>
 <b6cc7629-b603-4f19-bb9f-72b86b100b3a@googlegroups.com>
 <CALQtMBZApu87fHqj0kw2PMsKyd+VV1QhF5133B+e=i-UmM7OJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE1aY-m_zF1LcF=u6m7mXHs3Bcn7uO2MY+nShvZ8j0tDph0KTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH6Pt5pHWT0b5HEUKhqYxXNoi1QQQ83H-nvuaJK7OJuzuLUhEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALQtMBaPh69J5Rf_xwpK0hQsNXfdszAxLFeUbNuZ027TZW7JHw@mail.gmail.com>

I would say we still want it "development-related" (in the broad sense, but
to make a clear distinction with pure usage / support questions), so
dropping the "dev" suffix might not reflect that anymore.
There are also quite some other lists that use a similar pattern
(scipy-dev, matplotlib-devel, python-dev, dev at arrow.apache.org, ...), and
have the scope that we intent (as far as I am aware of those lists). So I
would think it is somewhat an established pattern?

Joris

Op ma 7 jan. 2019 om 15:40 schreef Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com>:

> Hi,
>
> How about renaming the "pandas-dev" mailing list to "pandas"?  It
> sounds as if the "-dev" is discouraging the kind of discussion the OP
> is hoping for.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthew
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 2:26 PM Tom Augspurger
> <tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Agreed with Joris here.
> >
> > IMO, your "(2) There isn't really any place for users to interact with
> developers to discuss longer term plans (e.g. version 0.25, version 2.0)"
> > is a perfect topic for the pandas-dev mailing list.
> >
> > I opened https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas-website/pull/69 to update
> our community page, and tried to summarize some of the sentiments
> > from this thread. Please share your thoughts if you have any, and maybe
> subscribe to the discussion there.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 8:13 PM Joris Van den Bossche <
> jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Op ma 7 jan. 2019 om 01:05 schreef John E <eiler13 at gmail.com>:
> >>>>
> >>>> On this I think I disagree: there are actually 3 "places":
> >>>> - the bug tracker ("discussion issues" are not uncommon)
> >>>> - the pandas-dev mailing list (probably a better choice for more
> >>>> articulated discussions on pandas development)
> >>>> - the occasional pandas development hangouts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I didn't even know about the mailing list but that is obviously dev
> only.  I only found it by googling and have not seen it generally
> publicized and to be clear I certainly think there should be dev only
> channels that avoid the riff raff like me.  ;-)
> >>>
> >> We indeed could do a better job communicating about those different
> channels.
> >> But, about pandas-dev mailing list: it is indeed for
> development-related questions, but that does not mean it only to be used by
> "developers" (in the sense of developing pandas). For me, what you mention
> about users that want to interact with developers about eg the roadmap,
> that is something perfectly fitting to discuss on the pandas-dev mailing
> list.
> >>
> >> In general, it would be nice to see more interaction between interested
> users and direct developers on roadmap and API discussions, and of the
> current channels, I think pandas-dev is the most appropriate for that at
> this time (if it is something not specific enough to be discussed on a
> github issue).
> >>
> >> That doesn't mean we can't think about other / better channels, though.
> There is currently some exploration of discourse in a couple of python
> communities (eg core python devs, jupyter)
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "PyData" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "PyData" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "PyData" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
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From matthew.brett at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 10:11:28 2019
From: matthew.brett at gmail.com (Matthew Brett)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:11:28 +0000
Subject: [Pandas-dev] [pydata] Is there a place for general discussion
 of pandas?
In-Reply-To: <CALQtMBaPh69J5Rf_xwpK0hQsNXfdszAxLFeUbNuZ027TZW7JHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <79faa965-c9e2-4819-b72b-136ea87b3aed@googlegroups.com>
 <1546813160.1968.52.camel@pietrobattiston.it>
 <b6cc7629-b603-4f19-bb9f-72b86b100b3a@googlegroups.com>
 <CALQtMBZApu87fHqj0kw2PMsKyd+VV1QhF5133B+e=i-UmM7OJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE1aY-m_zF1LcF=u6m7mXHs3Bcn7uO2MY+nShvZ8j0tDph0KTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH6Pt5pHWT0b5HEUKhqYxXNoi1QQQ83H-nvuaJK7OJuzuLUhEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALQtMBaPh69J5Rf_xwpK0hQsNXfdszAxLFeUbNuZ027TZW7JHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH6Pt5oo5qgdMa9H5w-2DXagQ-Kwdhnbb5DDUf==M78mqXvQdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Well - I would characterize "-dev" lists as being somewhat old-school,
for exactly the reason that the OP brought up.   Examples of mixed
development and general discussions are numpy-discussion at python.org,
sympy at googlegroups.com pystatsmodels at googlegroups.com.

If you're interested, there's a long discussion of this issue starting here:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/numpy-discussion/2012-June/062993.html

As you can see there, I was there arguing against splitting numpy into
-user and -dev lists, and we still have a unified list.

I think those arguments apply even more now, where of a lot of
specific technical discussion has moved to Github issues and PRs.

Cheers,

Matthew



On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 2:49 PM Joris Van den Bossche
<jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would say we still want it "development-related" (in the broad sense, but to make a clear distinction with pure usage / support questions), so dropping the "dev" suffix might not reflect that anymore.
> There are also quite some other lists that use a similar pattern (scipy-dev, matplotlib-devel, python-dev, dev at arrow.apache.org, ...), and have the scope that we intent (as far as I am aware of those lists). So I would think it is somewhat an established pattern?
>
> Joris
>
> Op ma 7 jan. 2019 om 15:40 schreef Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> How about renaming the "pandas-dev" mailing list to "pandas"?  It
>> sounds as if the "-dev" is discouraging the kind of discussion the OP
>> is hoping for.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 2:26 PM Tom Augspurger
>> <tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Agreed with Joris here.
>> >
>> > IMO, your "(2) There isn't really any place for users to interact with developers to discuss longer term plans (e.g. version 0.25, version 2.0)"
>> > is a perfect topic for the pandas-dev mailing list.
>> >
>> > I opened https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas-website/pull/69 to update our community page, and tried to summarize some of the sentiments
>> > from this thread. Please share your thoughts if you have any, and maybe subscribe to the discussion there.
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 8:13 PM Joris Van den Bossche <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Op ma 7 jan. 2019 om 01:05 schreef John E <eiler13 at gmail.com>:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On this I think I disagree: there are actually 3 "places":
>> >>>> - the bug tracker ("discussion issues" are not uncommon)
>> >>>> - the pandas-dev mailing list (probably a better choice for more
>> >>>> articulated discussions on pandas development)
>> >>>> - the occasional pandas development hangouts
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I didn't even know about the mailing list but that is obviously dev only.  I only found it by googling and have not seen it generally publicized and to be clear I certainly think there should be dev only channels that avoid the riff raff like me.  ;-)
>> >>>
>> >> We indeed could do a better job communicating about those different channels.
>> >> But, about pandas-dev mailing list: it is indeed for development-related questions, but that does not mean it only to be used by "developers" (in the sense of developing pandas). For me, what you mention about users that want to interact with developers about eg the roadmap, that is something perfectly fitting to discuss on the pandas-dev mailing list.
>> >>
>> >> In general, it would be nice to see more interaction between interested users and direct developers on roadmap and API discussions, and of the current channels, I think pandas-dev is the most appropriate for that at this time (if it is something not specific enough to be discussed on a github issue).
>> >>
>> >> That doesn't mean we can't think about other / better channels, though. There is currently some exploration of discourse in a couple of python communities (eg core python devs, jupyter)
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PyData" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PyData" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PyData" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PyData" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pydata+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

From jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com  Wed Jan  9 19:42:20 2019
From: jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com (Joris Van den Bossche)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 01:42:20 +0100
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Remaining API changes / deprecations to do before 1.0
 (wishlist)
Message-ID: <CALQtMBb2mwyWsgiHOqizA-BxFxuGCLqRJ1Xf9zrughDhOi9+uQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

In the summer we had the following plan: do remaining deprecations /
changes for 0.24, stabilize this in 0.25, and then clean-up deprecations in
1.0.
But, we need to re-evaluate if we are still on schedule for this plan.
Because if there are still remaining deprecations or API changes we
certainly want to do before 1.0 (which is likely I think), we probably
consider still doing a couple of such changes in 0.25 (with or without an
additional 0.26 between 0.25 and 1.0).

But to be able to make a better idea about what we still want to do, I
think it would be good to try to come up with a list of items that we would
*ideally* like to do before calling it a 1.0. That should give a better
idea on how long a 0.25 might take, if we want a 0.26 before doing 1.0, etc.

*So, what is your whishlist of bigger API changes / deprecations you still
want to do before 1.0?*

What I think we are looking for are the "bigger" topics (because of their
user impact and/or impossibility to do it cleanly with a warning).
For example, the deprecation of a couple of esoteric functions like
Series.nonzero is nice to do now, but would also not be a huge burden to
deprecate it after 1.0 and keep that warning throughout 1.x. So this would
certainly not be a blocker for 1.0.
On the other hand, topics like deprecating the inplace keyword, or changing
the return value when indexing into an index with duplicates (#9519
<https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues/9519>), deprecation of
SparseDataFrame, ... to name a few, those have a much bigger impact, and
could potentially be seen as a blocker (or at least an issue to try to
focus on).
And further, much bigger things like complete refactor of the BlockManager,
are then again topics clearly out of scope for 1.0
So it the middle category kind of issues that I think we should try to list.

The list will probably be too big, but if we have such a list then we can
at least have a basis for discussion and try to prioritize / identify some
actual blockers.

Cheers
Joris
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From tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 11 16:51:52 2019
From: tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com (Tom Augspurger)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 15:51:52 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] ANN: Pandas 0.24.0RC1 Released
Message-ID: <CAE1aY-nLGsAOyyrQMch-JYdc7yj+YEQV+wJr81=0DWnzaEkTtw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm pleased to announce the availability of pandas 0.24.0rc1.

*This is the first release candidate for 0.24.0.*

This is a major release from 0.23.4 and includes a number of API changes,
new
features, enhancements, and performance improvements along with a large
number
of bug fixes.

Highlights include:

   - Optional Nullable Integer Support
   <http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24.0rc1/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#optional-integer-na-support>
   - New APIs for accessing the array backing a Series or Index
   <http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24.0rc1/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#accessing-the-values-in-a-series-or-index>
   - A new top-level pandas.array() method for creating arrays
   <http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24.0rc1/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#array>
   - Store Interval and Period data in a Series or DataFrame
   <http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24.0rc1/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#storing-interval-and-period-data-in-series-and-dataframe>
   - Joining with two MultiIndexes
   <http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24.0rc1/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#joining-with-two-multi-indexes>

See the release notes
<http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24.0rc1/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html>
for
a full list of all the change from 0.23.4

The release candidate can be installed with conda from from conda-forge

    conda install -c conda-forge/label/rc pandas=0.24.0rc1

Or via PyPI

    python3 -m pip install --upgrade --pre pandas

Note that 0.24.x is the last series of releases to support Python 2.

Please report any issues with the release candidate on the pandas issue
tracker <https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues>.
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From garcia.marc at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 13:34:35 2019
From: garcia.marc at gmail.com (Marc Garcia)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:34:35 +0000
Subject: [Pandas-dev] European pandas contributors meeting in London
In-Reply-To: <CAEk5N5tZFM7U83qWYF_vYtkinKz=nGndaLvj6hEb6M=62a-R2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEk5N5tZFM7U83qWYF_vYtkinKz=nGndaLvj6hEb6M=62a-R2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEk5N5una-1eg2inADb62vHseERJSJZy+fO5Q5QkXwGChzEZfg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

Just to let you know, that we've got only couple of spots left for the
pandas contributors meeting in London. If you are interested and you are
not already registered, please let me know asap before it's sold out.

Besides the pandas contributors and core devs, we'll have people from
Arrow, Dask, xtensor/xframe, Vaex, CPython... You can find more info at:
https://python-sprints.github.io/europandas2019/

Cheers!

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 3:18 PM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> We're planning to have a meeting for the pandas contributors in Europe
> (obviously open to anyone who wants to fly to London). The day will
> probably be from the 25 to the 27 of January. On Friday afternoon we could
> have an event with talks and may be an interactive session with users to
> answer their questions and get their feedback. And Saturday and Sunday for
> sprints (also open to the public).
>
> Everything is yet to be confirmed, and ideas are more than welcome. Just
> wanted to send an early message, to see if someone else wants to
> participate, get involved or propose ideas (so far we discussed it with
> Joris and Pietro, I'm not aware of anyone else in Europe). Just get in
> touch.
>
> Cheers,
> Marc
>
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From tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 12:15:53 2019
From: tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com (Tom Augspurger)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 11:15:53 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] How Far do we take ExtensionArrays?
Message-ID: <CAE1aY-kuyyX_SN=KJeMV2+=REt_LSsfwjtRyBVJb3h=+RNztEw@mail.gmail.com>

This is something I've been mulling over the past few days: how much do we
want
ExtensionArrays to change pandas?

They've been great so far at addressing some of the shortcomings of NumPy's
type
system, but I imagine that users will be interested in pushing things even
further. For example, users have been asking for proper support for nested
data.
Now that we have ExtensionArrays, things are essentially solved at the
memory
level (by e.g. Apache Arrow). But, I imagine that the set of APIs typically
used
for nested data is quite different from those used for flat, tabular data
pandas
handles thus far. If we want to properly support nested data, what
tolerance do
we have for it "cluttering" the existing API?

As another semi-example, users may be interested in storing some or all
their
data on a GPU in an ExtensionArray or arrays backed by GPU-memory. I suspect
that some things work quite well currently, e.g. `Series.sort_values` will
dispatch to the `ExtensionArray.argsort`, which can use a GPU-accelerated
sorting algorithm. But other parts of pandas (anything in Cython, for
example)
won't necessarily work. How much are we willing to refactor pandas'
internals to
support something that's going to live outside pandas (as a GPU extension
array
likely would)?

Finally (and this may be a topic for another day) have people thought about
how
3rd-party EAs fit in with the potential block manager rewrite? IIUC, one of
the
goals there was a stable C API to the memory inside a DataFrame. Does anyone
know how that would work with a array that doesn't (or can't) implement the
buffer protocol?
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From tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 10:20:42 2019
From: tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com (Tom Augspurger)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 09:20:42 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] Remaining API changes / deprecations to do before
 1.0 (wishlist)
In-Reply-To: <CALQtMBb2mwyWsgiHOqizA-BxFxuGCLqRJ1Xf9zrughDhOi9+uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALQtMBb2mwyWsgiHOqizA-BxFxuGCLqRJ1Xf9zrughDhOi9+uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE1aY-=VoTrG4Lz0cxP1v6_-3kXk63XMGVAF_odnAieFXbguFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 6:42 PM Joris Van den Bossche <
jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> In the summer we had the following plan: do remaining deprecations /
> changes for 0.24, stabilize this in 0.25, and then clean-up deprecations in
> 1.0.
> But, we need to re-evaluate if we are still on schedule for this plan.
> Because if there are still remaining deprecations or API changes we
> certainly want to do before 1.0 (which is likely I think), we probably
> consider still doing a couple of such changes in 0.25 (with or without an
> additional 0.26 between 0.25 and 1.0).
>

I think reconsidering this is a good idea. I'd like to get a 1.0 out
sometime soon (middle of the year?). And the community will catch up, even
if there are some breaking changes in 1.0.


> But to be able to make a better idea about what we still want to do, I
> think it would be good to try to come up with a list of items that we would
> *ideally* like to do before calling it a 1.0. That should give a better
> idea on how long a 0.25 might take, if we want a 0.26 before doing 1.0, etc.
>
> *So, what is your whishlist of bigger API changes / deprecations you still
> want to do before 1.0?*
>
> What I think we are looking for are the "bigger" topics (because of their
> user impact and/or impossibility to do it cleanly with a warning).
> For example, the deprecation of a couple of esoteric functions like
> Series.nonzero is nice to do now, but would also not be a huge burden to
> deprecate it after 1.0 and keep that warning throughout 1.x. So this would
> certainly not be a blocker for 1.0.
> On the other hand, topics like deprecating the inplace keyword, or
> changing the return value when indexing into an index with duplicates (
> #9519 <https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues/9519>), deprecation of
> SparseDataFrame, ... to name a few, those have a much bigger impact, and
> could potentially be seen as a blocker (or at least an issue to try to
> focus on).
> And further, much bigger things like complete refactor of the
> BlockManager, are then again topics clearly out of scope for 1.0
> So it the middle category kind of issues that I think we should try to
> list.
>
> The list will probably be too big, but if we have such a list then we can
> at least have a basis for discussion and try to prioritize / identify some
> actual blockers.
>

My main one is deprecation of SparseSeries and SparseDataFrame, since I
don't want to carry that around for all of 1.x.
I didn't quite get there for 0.24, but all the really disruptive changes
are done now (no method in pandas should return a SparseDataFrame anymore,
aside from DataFrame.to_sparse()).

 Tom

Cheers
> Joris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pandas-dev mailing list
> Pandas-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>
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From David.Rashty at flagstar.com  Sat Jan 19 18:32:55 2019
From: David.Rashty at flagstar.com (David M Rashty)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 23:32:55 +0000
Subject: [Pandas-dev] [EXTERNAL] Re:  pandas or new project
In-Reply-To: <CAJPUwMDzZ4i6SEBsSB+swH6ZLb5ynp+fY+qh2su7qgW6wM37ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4bc4feca077b4b56bd14b9a7483c5b7f@FSTROYMSMAIL04.CORP.FSROOT.FLAGSTAR.COM>
 <CAE1aY-m0feLwO-zYSs5EiD1BYuT+pe2Mmn1XxfH6yDai5jt2Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDzZ4i6SEBsSB+swH6ZLb5ynp+fY+qh2su7qgW6wM37ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9fedf21374614140b39470405deded5a@FSTROYMSMAIL04.CORP.FSROOT.FLAGSTAR.COM>

Tom/Wes,
Here?s the open source project I started:
https://github.com/pandichef/sugarbears

It?s not quite ripe for the pandas ecosystem page, but I wanted to share what I?ve been working on and get your thoughts on the idea before I go far down the rabbit hole.

At a high level, the goal is to wrap pandas in a way to enable comparable development speed to Stata or even MS Excel.

Thanks!
Dave


From: Wes McKinney [mailto:wesmckinn at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 9:56 PM
To: Tom Augspurger <tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com>
Cc: David M Rashty <David.Rashty at flagstar.com>; pandas-dev at python.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Pandas-dev] pandas or new project

Flagstar Security Warning: External Email. Please make sure you trust this source before clicking links or opening attachments.
hi David,

There's nothing really wrong with injecting a bunch of custom methods into the DataFrame.* namespace. If you wanted, you could release your package as like

import pandas_stata

and then the new methods would be available. This is pretty common in large corporate environments that use pandas AFAICT. You can also propose your changes in pull requests to pandas.

- Wes



On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:41 PM Tom Augspurger <tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com<mailto:tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com>> wrote:
With respect to your `sdrop` and `skeep`,  that's the goal of DataFrame.filter, though the name isn't the best so it'll
maybe be deprecated in favor of something better.

The rest sound interesting, but likely out of scope for pandas. If you build an open source library then we'd be
happy to include in pandas' ecosystem page: http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/ecosystem.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pandas.pydata.org_pandas-2Ddocs_stable_ecosystem.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=6071WI5hme3qubAgsPInwSFFJUptGl1Ret_NIv4f0FM&r=IInR9ts5zJa2y9TCv1xkCBiNMNvWYuB88s6FL4QdKPQ&m=Yh52B0HOnjdaEtHlGjuSmivYPHIGG_RYsuh0b-93ELY&s=381O1pJzOg_Mvrmgl5CKUUTR9CSFh1VXi5zX4w33Kbc&e=>

Tom


On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 7:58 PM David M Rashty <David.Rashty at flagstar.com<mailto:David.Rashty at flagstar.com>> wrote:
Dear pandas team,
I am a long time Stata user and I started using pandas about a year ago in order to build web applications using an in memory dataframe structure.  As a business user, I?ve found Stata to have a key advantage over pandas that many others have also noted: much faster development time.  Examples in Stata:

drop myvar*       // drops all columns starting with myvar
keep myvar*       // drops all columns except those starting with myvar
reg z y x               // runs the regression z = a+bx+cy + error

In order to use pandas in a Stata-like fashion, I?ve had to monkey patch large parts of the library e.g.,

df = df.sdrop(?myvar*?)     # same as above
df = df.skeep(?myvar*?)     # same as above
df = df.sreg(?z y x?)              # same as above
df = df.squery(?a>80 & b.str.contains(?hello?) & c.isin([1,2,3])?)   # df.query doesn?t support str.contains and isin to my knowledge

I put an ?s? in front of my methods to mean either ?stata? or ?sugar?.

Additionally, I?ve built a system to:

a)      Automatically load new DataFrame methods into memory (no additional imports required)

b)      A caching system to make loading data blazing fast along with a much tighter syntax e.g., pd.read_stata(?mydata.dta?) (6 secs load time) vs use.mydata (0.001 secs load time after the first read from file)

c)      A system of column ?labels? and formats to prettify various reports e.g., df.sscatter(?rate score?) produces a scatter plot with labels ?Interest Rate, %? and ?Credit Score?, respectively.

d)      A reactive web app (using Flask/Redis) to quickly view the full DataFrame content in a browser:

Basically, I?ve tried to eliminate any obvious advantages Stata has over pandas.

I?m potentially interested in developing this project into something bigger.   Would you like me to share my work in the context of pandas or should it be a completely separate project with a different scope?

Thanks,

David Rashty | Flagstar Bank | Whole Loan Trading | 248-312-6692 | david.rashty at flagstar.com<mailto:david.rashty at flagstar.com>

This e-mail may contain data that is confidential, proprietary or non-public personal information, as that term is defined in the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (collectively, Confidential Information). The Confidential Information is disclosed conditioned upon your agreement that you will treat it confidentially and in accordance with applicable law, ensure that such data isn't used or disclosed except for the limited purpose for which it's being provided and will notify and cooperate with us regarding any requested or unauthorized disclosure or use of any Confidential Information.
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_______________________________________________
Pandas-dev mailing list
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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_pandas-2Ddev&d=DwMFaQ&c=6071WI5hme3qubAgsPInwSFFJUptGl1Ret_NIv4f0FM&r=IInR9ts5zJa2y9TCv1xkCBiNMNvWYuB88s6FL4QdKPQ&m=Yh52B0HOnjdaEtHlGjuSmivYPHIGG_RYsuh0b-93ELY&s=bLEIk941oO-TPAw9RBlbPeNXj8CTho6oZ91eR_Q9jyI&e=>
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From eiler13 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 12:44:26 2019
From: eiler13 at gmail.com (John Eiler)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 12:44:26 -0500
Subject: [Pandas-dev] [EXTERNAL] Re: pandas or new project
In-Reply-To: <9fedf21374614140b39470405deded5a@FSTROYMSMAIL04.CORP.FSROOT.FLAGSTAR.COM>
References: <4bc4feca077b4b56bd14b9a7483c5b7f@FSTROYMSMAIL04.CORP.FSROOT.FLAGSTAR.COM>
 <CAE1aY-m0feLwO-zYSs5EiD1BYuT+pe2Mmn1XxfH6yDai5jt2Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPUwMDzZ4i6SEBsSB+swH6ZLb5ynp+fY+qh2su7qgW6wM37ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9fedf21374614140b39470405deded5a@FSTROYMSMAIL04.CORP.FSROOT.FLAGSTAR.COM>
Message-ID: <CAFK+Bd4vZyK6n4gZPOASh8Qc5nk56Urt5pAXqYcCvxJLV0zn7A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dave, this seems like a really interesting project.  I'm curious to take
a look at it but the link isn't working for me.  Maybe you didn't make it
public?

On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 6:45 PM David M Rashty <David.Rashty at flagstar.com>
wrote:

> Tom/Wes,
>
> Here?s the open source project I started:
>
> https://github.com/pandichef/sugarbears
>
>
>
> It?s not quite ripe for the pandas ecosystem page, but I wanted to share
> what I?ve been working on and get your thoughts on the idea before I go far
> down the rabbit hole.
>
>
>
> At a high level, the goal is to wrap pandas in a way to enable comparable
> development speed to Stata or even MS Excel.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Wes McKinney [mailto:wesmckinn at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 13, 2018 9:56 PM
> *To:* Tom Augspurger <tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* David M Rashty <David.Rashty at flagstar.com>; pandas-dev at python.org
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Pandas-dev] pandas or new project
>
>
> *Flagstar Security Warning:* External Email. Please make sure you trust
> this source before clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> hi David,
>
>
>
> There's nothing really wrong with injecting a bunch of custom methods into
> the DataFrame.* namespace. If you wanted, you could release your package as
> like
>
>
>
> import pandas_stata
>
>
>
> and then the new methods would be available. This is pretty common in
> large corporate environments that use pandas AFAICT. You can also propose
> your changes in pull requests to pandas.
>
>
>
> - Wes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:41 PM Tom Augspurger <tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> With respect to your `sdrop` and `skeep`,  that's the goal of
> DataFrame.filter, though the name isn't the best so it'll
>
> maybe be deprecated in favor of something better.
>
>
>
> The rest sound interesting, but likely out of scope for pandas. If you
> build an open source library then we'd be
>
> happy to include in pandas' ecosystem page:
> http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/ecosystem.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pandas.pydata.org_pandas-2Ddocs_stable_ecosystem.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=6071WI5hme3qubAgsPInwSFFJUptGl1Ret_NIv4f0FM&r=IInR9ts5zJa2y9TCv1xkCBiNMNvWYuB88s6FL4QdKPQ&m=Yh52B0HOnjdaEtHlGjuSmivYPHIGG_RYsuh0b-93ELY&s=381O1pJzOg_Mvrmgl5CKUUTR9CSFh1VXi5zX4w33Kbc&e=>
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 7:58 PM David M Rashty <David.Rashty at flagstar.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear pandas team,
>
> I am a long time Stata user and I started using pandas about a year ago in
> order to build web applications using an in memory dataframe structure.  As
> a business user, I?ve found Stata to have a key advantage over pandas that
> many others have also noted: much faster development time.  Examples in
> Stata:
>
>
>
> drop myvar*       // drops all columns starting with myvar
>
> keep myvar*       // drops all columns except those starting with myvar
>
> reg z y x               // runs the regression z = a+bx+cy + error
>
>
>
> In order to use pandas in a Stata-like fashion, I?ve had to monkey patch
> large parts of the library e.g.,
>
>
>
> df = df.sdrop(?myvar*?)     # same as above
>
> df = df.skeep(?myvar*?)     # same as above
>
> df = df.sreg(?z y x?)              # same as above
>
> df = df.squery(?a>80 & b.str.contains(?hello?) & c.isin([1,2,3])?)   #
> df.query doesn?t support str.contains and isin to my knowledge
>
>
>
> I put an ?s? in front of my methods to mean either ?stata? or ?sugar?.
>
>
>
> Additionally, I?ve built a system to:
>
> a)      Automatically load new DataFrame methods into memory (no
> additional imports required)
>
> b)      A caching system to make loading data blazing fast along with a
> much tighter syntax e.g., pd.read_stata(?mydata.dta?) (6 secs load time) vs
> use.mydata (0.001 secs load time after the first read from file)
>
> c)      A system of column ?labels? and formats to prettify various
> reports e.g., df.sscatter(?rate score?) produces a scatter plot with labels
> ?Interest Rate, %? and ?Credit Score?, respectively.
>
> d)      A reactive web app (using Flask/Redis) to quickly view the full
> DataFrame content in a browser:
>
>
>
> Basically, I?ve tried to eliminate any obvious advantages Stata has over
> pandas.
>
>
>
> I?m potentially interested in developing this project into something
> bigger.   Would you like me to share my work in the context of pandas or
> should it be a completely separate project with a different scope?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> David Rashty | Flagstar Bank | Whole Loan Trading | 248-312-6692 |
> david.rashty at flagstar.com
>
>
>
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From tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 25 16:22:46 2019
From: tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com (Tom Augspurger)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:22:46 -0600
Subject: [Pandas-dev] ANN: Pandas 0.24.0 Released
Message-ID: <CAE1aY-kddxdWQcYxVs_YiCYM0F3TY1dYAwT_cVWCqE953WVfSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm pleased to announce the release of pandas 0.24.0.

This is a major release from 0.23.4 and includes a number of API changes,
new
features, enhancements, and performance improvements along with a large
number
of bug fixes.

Highlights include:

   - Optional Nullable Integer Support
   <https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#optional-integer-na-support>
   - New APIs for accessing the array backing a Series or Index
   <https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#accessing-the-values-in-a-series-or-index>
   - A new top-level pandas.array() method for creating arrays
   <https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#array>
   - Store Interval and Period data in a Series or DataFrame
   <https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#storing-interval-and-period-data-in-series-and-dataframe>
   - Joining with two MultiIndexes
   <https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html#joining-with-two-multi-indexes>

See the release notes
<https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/version/0.24/whatsnew/v0.24.0.html> for
a full list of all the change from 0.23.4

The pandas blog also has an introduction to the new pandas extension array
interface
<https://pandas-dev.github.io/pandas-blog/pandas-extension-arrays.html>.

The release candidate can be installed with conda using the defaults or
conda-forge channels

conda install pandas

Or via PyPI

python3 -m pip install --upgrade pandas

Note that 0.24.x is the last series of releases to support Python 2.

- Tom



A total of 337 people contributed patches to this release. People with a
?+? by their names contributed a patch for the first time.


* AJ Dyka +

* AJ Pryor, Ph.D +

* Aaron Critchley

* Adam Hooper

* Adam J. Stewart

* Adam Kim

* Adam Klimont +

* Addison Lynch +

* Alan Hogue +

* Alex Radu +

* Alex Rychyk

* Alex Strick van Linschoten +

* Alex Volkov +

* Alexander Buchkovsky

* Alexander Hess +

* Alexander Ponomaroff +

* Allison Browne +

* Aly Sivji

* Andrew

* Andrew Gross +

* Andrew Spott +

* Andy +

* Aniket uttam +

* Anjali2019 +

* Anjana S +

* Antti Kaihola +

* Anudeep Tubati +

* Arjun Sharma +

* Armin Varshokar

* Artem Bogachev

* ArtinSarraf +

* Barry Fitzgerald +

* Bart Aelterman +

* Ben James +

* Ben Nelson +

* Benjamin Grove +

* Benjamin Rowell +

* Benoit Paquet +

* Boris Lau +

* Brett Naul

* Brian Choi +

* C.A.M. Gerlach +

* Carl Johan +

* Chalmer Lowe

* Chang She

* Charles David +

* Cheuk Ting Ho

* Chris

* Chris Roberts +

* Christopher Whelan

* Chu Qing Hao +

* Da Cheezy Mobsta +

* Damini Satya

* Daniel Himmelstein

* Daniel Saxton +

* Darcy Meyer +

* DataOmbudsman

* David Arcos

* David Krych

* Dean Langsam +

* Diego Argueta +

* Diego Torres +

* Dobatymo +

* Doug Latornell +

* Dr. Irv

* Dylan Dmitri Gray +

* Eric Boxer +

* Eric Chea

* Erik +

* Erik Nilsson +

* Fabian Haase +

* Fabian Retkowski

* Fabien Aulaire +

* Fakabbir Amin +

* Fei Phoon +

* Fernando Margueirat +

* Florian M?ller +

* F?bio Rosado +

* Gabe Fernando

* Gabriel Reid +

* Giftlin Rajaiah

* Gioia Ballin +

* Gjelt

* Gosuke Shibahara +

* Graham Inggs

* Guillaume Gay

* Guillaume Lemaitre +

* Hannah Ferchland

* Haochen Wu

* Hubert +

* HubertKl +

* HyunTruth +

* Iain Barr

* Ignacio Vergara Kausel +

* Irv Lustig +

* IsvenC +

* Jacopo Rota

* Jakob Jarmar +

* James Bourbeau +

* James Myatt +

* James Winegar +

* Jan Rudolph

* Jared Groves +

* Jason Kiley +

* Javad Noorbakhsh +

* Jay Offerdahl +

* Jeff Reback

* Jeongmin Yu +

* Jeremy Schendel

* Jerod Estapa +

* Jesper Dramsch +

* Jim Jeon +

* Joe Jevnik

* Joel Nothman

* Joel Ostblom +

* Jordi Contest?

* Jorge L?pez Fueyo +

* Joris Van den Bossche

* Jose Quinones +

* Jose Rivera-Rubio +

* Josh

* Jun +

* Justin Zheng +

* Kaiqi Dong +

* Kalyan Gokhale

* Kang Yoosam +

* Karl Dunkle Werner +

* Karmanya Aggarwal +

* Kevin Markham +

* Kevin Sheppard

* Kimi Li +

* Koustav Samaddar +

* Krishna +

* Kristian Holsheimer +

* Ksenia Gueletina +

* Kyle Prestel +

* LJ +

* LeakedMemory +

* Li Jin +

* Licht Takeuchi

* Luca Donini +

* Luciano Viola +

* Mak Sze Chun +

* Marc Garcia

* Marius Potgieter +

* Mark Sikora +

* Markus Meier +

* Marlene Silva Marchena +

* Martin Babka +

* MatanCohe +

* Mateusz Wo? +

* Mathew Topper +

* Matt Boggess +

* Matt Cooper +

* Matt Williams +

* Matthew Gilbert

* Matthew Roeschke

* Max Kanter

* Michael Odintsov

* Michael Silverstein +

* Michael-J-Ward +

* Micka?l Schoentgen +

* Miguel S?nchez de Le?n Peque +

* Ming Li

* Mitar

* Mitch Negus

* Monson Shao +

* Moonsoo Kim +

* Mortada Mehyar

* Myles Braithwaite

* Nehil Jain +

* Nicholas Musolino +

* Nicolas Dickreuter +

* Nikhil Kumar Mengani +

* Nikoleta Glynatsi +

* Ondrej Kokes

* Pablo Ambrosio +

* Pamela Wu +

* Parfait G +

* Patrick Park +

* Paul

* Paul Ganssle

* Paul Reidy

* Paul van Mulbregt +

* Phillip Cloud

* Pietro Battiston

* Piyush Aggarwal +

* Prabakaran Kumaresshan +

* Pulkit Maloo

* Pyry Kovanen

* Rajib Mitra +

* Redonnet Louis +

* Rhys Parry +

* Rick +

* Robin

* Roei.r +

* RomainSa +

* Roman Imankulov +

* Roman Yurchak +

* Ruijing Li +

* Ryan +

* Ryan Nazareth +

* R?diger Busche +

* SEUNG HOON, SHIN +

* Sandrine Pataut +

* Sangwoong Yoon

* Santosh Kumar +

* Saurav Chakravorty +

* Scott McAllister +

* Sean Chan +

* Shadi Akiki +

* Shengpu Tang +

* Shirish Kadam +

* Simon Hawkins +

* Simon Riddell +

* Simone Basso

* Sinhrks

* Soyoun(Rose) Kim +

* Srinivas Reddy Thatiparthy (?????????? ?????? ?????????) +

* Stefaan Lippens +

* Stefano Cianciulli

* Stefano Miccoli +

* Stephen Childs

* Stephen Pascoe

* Steve Baker +

* Steve Cook +

* Steve Dower +

* St?phan Taljaard +

* Sumin Byeon +

* S?ren +

* Tamas Nagy +

* Tanya Jain +

* Tarbo Fukazawa

* Thein Oo +

* Thiago Cordeiro da Fonseca +

* Thierry Moisan

* Thiviyan Thanapalasingam +

* Thomas Lentali +

* Tim D. Smith +

* Tim Swast

* Tom Augspurger

* Tomasz Kluczkowski +

* Tony Tao +

* Triple0 +

* Troels Nielsen +

* Tuhin Mahmud +

* Tyler Reddy +

* Uddeshya Singh

* Uwe L. Korn +

* Vadym Barda +

* Varad Gunjal +

* Victor Maryama +

* Victor Villas

* Vincent La

* Vit?ria Helena +

* Vu Le

* Vyom Jain +

* Weiwen Gu +

* Wenhuan

* Wes Turner

* Wil Tan +

* William Ayd

* Yeojin Kim +

* Yitzhak Andrade +

* Yuecheng Wu +

* Yuliya Dovzhenko +

* Yury Bayda +

* Zac Hatfield-Dodds +

* aberres +

* aeltanawy +

* ailchau +

* alimcmaster1

* alphaCTzo7G +

* amphy +

* araraonline +

* azure-pipelines[bot] +

* benarthur91 +

* bk521234 +

* cgangwar11 +

* chris-b1

* cxl923cc +

* dahlbaek +

* dannyhyunkim +

* darke-spirits +

* david-liu-brattle-1

* davidmvalente +

* deflatSOCO

* doosik_bae +

* dylanchase +

* eduardo naufel schettino +

* euri10 +

* evangelineliu +

* fengyqf +

* fjdiod

* fl4p +

* fleimgruber +

* gfyoung

* h-vetinari

* harisbal +

* henriqueribeiro +

* himanshu awasthi

* hongshaoyang +

* igorfassen +

* jalazbe +

* jbrockmendel

* jh-wu +

* justinchan23 +

* louispotok

* marcosrullan +

* miker985

* nicolab100 +

* nprad

* nsuresh +

* ottiP

* pajachiet +

* raguiar2 +

* ratijas +

* realead +

* robbuckley +

* saurav2608 +

* sideeye +

* ssikdar1

* svenharris +

* syutbai +

* testvinder +

* thatneat

* tmnhat2001

* tomascassidy +

* tomneep

* topper-123

* vkk800 +

* winlu +

* ym-pett +

* yrhooke +

* ywpark1 +

* zertrin

* zhezherun +
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