[Pandas-dev] Mailing list for Python data analytics ecosystem developers?

[Andy Ray Terrel]

I would recommend we set up a site dev.pydata.org that tells the folks
where conversations are happening. While mailing lists are great we might
consider just having a github issue tracker set up for cross ecosystem bugs
or initiatives. I was planning on decommisionning the numfocus discourse
and zulip server as they didn't really have great use. Chris Holdgraf
suggested using Topic Box, but user based pricing isn't a great option for
open source development.

Anywho, both dask and pandas are part of the NumFOCUS projects ecosystem so
I'm happy to set anything up for ya'll.

-- Andy

On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 10:35 PM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:

> @Andy
>
> pydata at googlegroups.com has 2734 members. Based on recent traffic it
> is really a user / Q&A mailing list, not a place for the
> maintainers/steering committees of major projects to speak publicly
> with one another (where discussions are public, archived, searchable).
> I have observed that there are many discussions happening between the
> developers of projects on an ad hoc basis and on ad hoc communication
> channels (both private and public). Partly there is no obvious place
> for, e.g., the developers of pandas and dask to have a public
> discussion, that is not necessarily "partisan" to one of those
> projects.
>
> As another example issue, there is not an obvious place to raise
> issues. Back in the day I think numpy-discussion or scipy-user used to
> partly serve this purpose, but the centers of gravity have shifted.
>
> - Wes
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 9:41 PM Andy Ray Terrel <andy.terrel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not completely clear what is being asked for since
> pydata at googlegroups.com already exists. Since NumFOCUS is promoting the
> PyData conference and helping build the brand for the ecosystem, I wonder
> if a home like pydata-dev at numfocus.org would be interesting for folks?
> >
> > It is also my understanding that there will be a fuller steering
> committee set up for the conferences next year. I propose we do the same
> for the technical structure. As is, I manage the website and github repos
> but there is not much dictating how I manage these.
> >
> > -- Andy
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 6:00 PM Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Other examples of discourse used for dev discussion include:
> >>
> >> - https://internals.rust-lang.org/ -- main dev forum for rust
> >> - https://discuss.python.org/ -- potential replacement for
> >> python-{committers,dev,users}, still experimental but where a ton of
> >> the python governance discussion happened
> >>
> >> My impression so far is that discourse takes a bit of adjustment
> >> compared to mailing lists, but it has a lot of valuable features like
> >> multi-quoting, markdown (code blocks, links, ...), solid moderation
> >> tools (e.g. if a discussion diverges you can retroactively split parts
> >> of it out into a new topic), polls (these were incredibly useful for
> >> taking the temperature of the community during the governance
> >> discussions), ability to reply to messages that were posted before you
> >> joined the list, configurable notifications (email me everything /
> >> email me when a new topic is created / email me a summary weekly /
> >> ...), ...
> >>
> >> -n
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 3:41 PM Matthew Rocklin <mrocklin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>> Copying the mailing list
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Whoops!  E-mail fail on my part.
> >> >
> >> >>> Discourse is interesting. It seems to be used (at least in PyTorch's
> >> >>> case) as more of a modern message board for users than a place for
> >> >>> long-form discussions between project developers.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> IMHO having a cross-project developer mailing list is probably
> overdue
> >> >>> -- I think we can do a better job the next couple of years
> >> >>> coordinating (colluding?) with each other. A lot of coordination
> does
> >> >>> of course in private, project-level, or other ad-hoc basis. It would
> >> >>> help to be able to discuss ecosystem-level problems and possible
> >> >>> solutions.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Entirely agreed.  And I think that an e-mail list is the obvious
> first choice here.
> >> >
> >> > I'm bringing up discourse as an alternative for consideration.  This
> is for a couple reasons:
> >> >
> >> > I'm slightly concerned that a broad ranging e-mail list that
> encompasses all of PyData would get noisy.  For example I can imagine
> lengthy conversations on visualization or probabalistic programming that,
> while I find important, would likely want to take a pass on.  Having a
> service that includes tags and subscription to those tags may have value.
> >> > E-mail list archives tend to collect dust.  If we're doing long-range
> cross-project coordination then those conversations might have long term
> value.  We might want to cross reference them, upvote them, subscribe to
> them, and so on.
> >> >
> >> > In regards to PyTorch's discuss in particular I agree that it is used
> more as a user forum, which I agree is a different use case than what Wes
> is proposing here.  I mostly pointed to it so that people could get a sense
> of what an active system looks like.
> >> >
> >> > Regardless, I encourage this conversation to happen with a broader
> set of people.  I believe that other groups are considering these topics as
> well and may have thoughts beyond those that have been expressed here.  I'm
> not sure how best to bootstrap this process, other than an e-mail to maybe
> the NumFOCUS mailing list and perhaps a tweet?
> >> >
> >> > > There's both a NumFOCUS discourse and zulip, I believe, but neither
> is particularly active. Whether those should be considered possible
> starting points or cautionary tales I leave to y'all.
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, I should also amend my previous statement from "how about
> discourse?" to "is there anything more appropriate than an e-mail list?".
> Discourse is the service around which I've seen the most activity recently
> but I agree that in our community, it hasn't really taken off that well.
> >> >
> >> > And just to reiterate, I think that an e-mail list would be great.
> Just wanted to throw out some other thoughts.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > -matt
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Wes McKinney <wesmckinn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> I sent a request to postmaster @ python.o to create
> >> >>> >> pydata-dev at python.org. We can also use google groups if others
> prefer
> >> >>> >> that
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 3:59 PM Joris Van den Bossche
> >> >>> >> <jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> > Giving the growing ecosysten of data tools (in some way
> related to pandas, but not pandas itself), I am also +1 on such a list. I
> think that would be welcome, and not aware of anything existing.
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> > Joris
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> > Op di 25 dec. 2018 02:19 schreef Stephan Hoyer <
> shoyer at gmail.com:
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> +1 for pydata-dev
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> I don't think there's a list quite like this today.
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 6:11 PM Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >>>
> >> >>> >> >>> I'm talking about public archived communication channels
> >> >>> >> >>>
> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018, 7:57 PM William Ayd <
> william.ayd at icloud.com wrote:
> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >> >>> >> >>>> What do you think is missing from the existing PyData
> conferences? I’ve only been to the one in LA but it seemed to be somewhat
> in the direction of what you are asking for.
> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >> >>> >> >>>> > On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Wes McKinney <
> wesmckinn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >>>> > hi folks,
> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >>>> > Prompted by some recent discussions I wondered what you
> all think
> >> >>> >> >>>> > would be the best venue to have public discussions that
> involve other
> >> >>> >> >>>> > open source projects that are generally 1 degree of
> separation away
> >> >>> >> >>>> > from pandas. Sort of like "pydata-dev", or something. Is
> there
> >> >>> >> >>>> > something like this already that I just missed?
> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >>>> > As context, I'm trying to travel less and go to fewer
> conferences the
> >> >>> >> >>>> > next couple of years, and spend more time coding and
> writing, but I
> >> >>> >> >>>> > still want to talk with people (asynchronously) about
> things, and
> >> >>> >> >>>> > preferably in public.
> >> >>> >> >>>> >
> >> >>> >> >>>> > - Wes
> >> >>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev mailing list
> >> >>> >> >>>> > Pandas-dev at python.org
> >> >>> >> >>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
> >> >>> >> >>>>
> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>> >> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
> >> _______________________________________________
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