From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  2 13:28:02 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:28:02 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] GitHub Access
Message-ID: <55952042.5020409@ntoll.org>

Hi Folks,

I'm going to nudge the BBC again about giving you all access to the
microbit repos on GitHub.

It basically contains a tonne of documentation we'll need to consume on
Sunday.

Just so you know what you're seeing when you get the GitHub related email.

:-)

Ciao ciao and see some of you on Sunday,

Nicholas.

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  2 13:30:31 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:30:31 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos on
	GitHub *before* Sunday.
Message-ID: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>

Hi,

Please can you ensure that the list of people at the bottom of this
email have access to the microbit-extras repository on GitHub. They have
all signed the NDA.

Some of them will be working with me this Sunday and the others will be
collaborating afterwards. All will need to access the documentation
contained within the repos.

Happy to answer any questions you may have!

N.

GitHub Usernames:
-----------------
voidspace
hjwp
gautier
markshannon
michael-sparks
sparkslabs
Keats
dpgeorge
teh
gpjt
nceder
tjguk

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul  2 13:48:16 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:48:16 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] GitHub Access
In-Reply-To: <55952042.5020409@ntoll.org>
References: <55952042.5020409@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385DEB@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Are you picking this up with Jonny?

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 02 July 2015 12:28
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: [Microbit-Python] GitHub Access

Hi Folks,

I'm going to nudge the BBC again about giving you all access to the
microbit repos on GitHub.

It basically contains a tonne of documentation we'll need to consume on
Sunday.

Just so you know what you're seeing when you get the GitHub related email.

:-)

Ciao ciao and see some of you on Sunday,

Nicholas.


From ben at raspberrypi.org  Thu Jul  2 13:51:33 2015
From: ben at raspberrypi.org (Ben Nuttall)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:51:33 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <e7f19b636eea4e97880c03cec55ae0fa@THHSTE15D1BE1.hs20.net>
References: <e7f19b636eea4e97880c03cec55ae0fa@THHSTE15D1BE1.hs20.net>
Message-ID: <CA+nJHc-SP9A40bx8KE+_3QzbL584AqVbstoeLP25_Y3e7BoWkg@mail.gmail.com>

Raspberry Pi Foundation employees to add as well:

- bennuttall
- davidhoness
- missphilbin
- jrobinson-uk

Ben

---

Ben Nuttall
Education Developer Advocate
Raspberry Pi Foundation
www.raspberrypi.org

UK registered charity 1129409

On 2 July 2015 at 12:30, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Please can you ensure that the list of people at the bottom of this
> email have access to the microbit-extras repository on GitHub. They have
> all signed the NDA.
>
> Some of them will be working with me this Sunday and the others will be
> collaborating afterwards. All will need to access the documentation
> contained within the repos.
>
> Happy to answer any questions you may have!
>
> N.
>
> GitHub Usernames:
> -----------------
> voidspace
> hjwp
> gautier
> markshannon
> michael-sparks
> sparkslabs
> Keats
> dpgeorge
> teh
> gpjt
> nceder
> tjguk
>
>
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From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Thu Jul  2 14:14:57 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:14:57 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CABeH_SsJ+N_MORVgBtX==rHK9z=u54N=BtAdfxqUOu1t1X7iOw@mail.gmail.com>

The IET:

whaleygeek



___________________________________________________________
David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
*Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex*

email:  dwhale at theiet.org
twitter: @whaleygeek
blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk

Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" <http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG>
- lets get kids coding!


On 2 July 2015 at 12:30, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Please can you ensure that the list of people at the bottom of this
> email have access to the microbit-extras repository on GitHub. They have
> all signed the NDA.
>
> Some of them will be working with me this Sunday and the others will be
> collaborating afterwards. All will need to access the documentation
> contained within the repos.
>
> Happy to answer any questions you may have!
>
> N.
>
> GitHub Usernames:
> -----------------
> voidspace
> hjwp
> gautier
> markshannon
> michael-sparks
> sparkslabs
> Keats
> dpgeorge
> teh
> gpjt
> nceder
> tjguk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul  2 15:20:01 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:20:01 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi Nicholas, Mark may have got back to you already but we are giving everybody access to the mBed repos instead -- it is way more correct and up-to-date and doesn't suffer from some of the sensitivity issues.

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas H.Tollervey [mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org]
Sent: 02 July 2015 12:31
To: Howard Baker-IF&L; Mark Joyce
Cc: microbit at python.org
Subject: Please add these users to the Microbit repos on GitHub *before* Sunday.

Hi,

Please can you ensure that the list of people at the bottom of this
email have access to the microbit-extras repository on GitHub. They have
all signed the NDA.

Some of them will be working with me this Sunday and the others will be
collaborating afterwards. All will need to access the documentation
contained within the repos.

Happy to answer any questions you may have!

N.

GitHub Usernames:
-----------------
voidspace
hjwp
gautier
markshannon
michael-sparks
sparkslabs
Keats
dpgeorge
teh
gpjt
nceder
tjguk



-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  2 16:27:54 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 15:27:54 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55954A6A.3050001@ntoll.org>

On 02/07/15 14:20, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi Nicholas, Mark may have got back to you already but we are giving
> everybody access to the mBed repos instead -- it is way more correct
> and up-to-date and doesn't suffer from some of the sensitivity
> issues.
> 
> Howard
> 

Hi Howard,

I'm looking for the website source code. I.e. what's running on
microbit.co.uk. The GH repos appears to have some sort of approximation
of that whereas mbed does not. My aim is simple - to have a locally
running dev environment so we can test/check our work and learn about
the wider system so we understand how best to interact with it.

This Sunday is all about the feasibility of a Python-ish editor embedded
in the microbit.co.uk website - as we've discussed on several occasions.
For us to even be able to have a fighting chance of pulling this off, we
obviously need access to the code for the website to see how it works
and check that anything we produce "fits". The public TouchDevelop
repository on GitHub is also going to be very useful - especially if we
go down the route of emitting the TD AST from the Python editor.

I've taken a look around the mbed project I've been given access to and
this contains lots of C++ related repositories and, unless I'm missing
something, nothing to do with the website itself.

However, the GitHub repos has instructions such as this:

https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras/blob/master/systems/buildingTouchDevelop.md

We were going to start here on Sunday along with the instructions in the
file externaleditor.md in the same folder.

As far as I can tell mbed doesn't have what we currently need for Sunday.

Unless, of course, I'm missing something completely obvious. Pointers
and suggestions most welcome!

Actually, Jonny just emailed me about the mbed platform. Website things
are not in there. He's introducing me to the Microsofties.

N.

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  2 17:32:25 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 16:32:25 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <D1BAF484.5EED%Mark.Joyce.ext@bbc.co.uk>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <D1BAF484.5EED%Mark.Joyce.ext@bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55955989.4040809@ntoll.org>

On 02/07/15 14:01, Mark Joyce wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
> 
> Can you please provide the full names of the users below also?

See below:

>>
>> GitHub Usernames:
>> -----------------
>> voidspace
Michael Foord
>> hjwp
Harry Percival
>> gautier
Gautier Hayoun
>> markshannon
Mark Shannon
>> michael-sparks
Michael Sparks
>> sparkslabs
Michael Sparks (personal account)
>> Keats
Vincent Prouillet
>> dpgeorge
Damien George
>> teh
Tom Hunger
>> gpjt
Giles Thomas
>> nceder
Naomi Ceder
>> tjguk
Tim Golden
>>
> 


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From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Thu Jul  2 17:33:58 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:33:58 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CABeH_Suypk8s42oJAha_V1GtL3z1iu63Kx+8iw2oPMU+6BO3Yw@mail.gmail.com>

Microsoft do provide a mode.js download of touchdevelop, I have the
standard edition running locally on my Mac with the minecraft target.. I
don't know how this is packaged, and I m sure it is missing a lot of detail
specific to microbit, but might be a good place to start.

I don't need touchdevelop code myself, I have an mbed account I will email
Mick later for this, as I am interested more in the platform side for
internet IoT connectivity over Bluetooth and USB serial

Thanks.

David.

Sent from my new HTC
On Jul 2, 2015 2:20 PM, "Howard Baker-IF&L" <howard.baker at bbc.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Nicholas, Mark may have got back to you already but we are giving
> everybody access to the mBed repos instead -- it is way more correct and
> up-to-date and doesn't suffer from some of the sensitivity issues.
>
> Howard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicholas H.Tollervey [mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org]
> Sent: 02 July 2015 12:31
> To: Howard Baker-IF&L; Mark Joyce
> Cc: microbit at python.org
> Subject: Please add these users to the Microbit repos on GitHub *before*
> Sunday.
>
> Hi,
>
> Please can you ensure that the list of people at the bottom of this
> email have access to the microbit-extras repository on GitHub. They have
> all signed the NDA.
>
> Some of them will be working with me this Sunday and the others will be
> collaborating afterwards. All will need to access the documentation
> contained within the repos.
>
> Happy to answer any questions you may have!
>
> N.
>
> GitHub Usernames:
> -----------------
> voidspace
> hjwp
> gautier
> markshannon
> michael-sparks
> sparkslabs
> Keats
> dpgeorge
> teh
> gpjt
> nceder
> tjguk
>
>
>
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless
> specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  2 17:34:10 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 16:34:10 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <D1BAF6A4.5F0C%Mark.Joyce.ext@bbc.co.uk>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <D1BAF6A4.5F0C%Mark.Joyce.ext@bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <559559F2.10308@ntoll.org>

On 02/07/15 14:10, Mark Joyce wrote:
> Can you ask everyone to sign up to: https://developer.mbed.org/
> 
> Once they are signed up can you send me their usernames and we will add
> them to the Micro:bit Mbed repo.
> 

As I explained in a previous email, none of the web-based work is in the
mbed repositories. Ergo, we don't need access to them. If we do, I'll
ping Jonny (and, if required, this is likely to be post-weekend).

Best wishes,

Nicholas

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  2 17:38:35 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 16:38:35 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_Suypk8s42oJAha_V1GtL3z1iu63Kx+8iw2oPMU+6BO3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>	<AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <CABeH_Suypk8s42oJAha_V1GtL3z1iu63Kx+8iw2oPMU+6BO3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55955AFB.4000602@ntoll.org>

On 02/07/15 16:33, David Whale wrote:
> Microsoft do provide a mode.js download of touchdevelop, I have the
> standard edition running locally on my Mac with the minecraft target.. I
> don't know how this is packaged, and I m sure it is missing a lot of
> detail specific to microbit, but might be a good place to start.
> 

I already have that running on my local Debian (!) machine. Jonny has
introduced me to the Microsoft team and I've sent over a bunch of
questions for them about how it all fits together in terms of the
microbit.co.uk flavour. I've also dug up a some cryptic documentation
about the TouchDevelop AST which will be really useful if we decide to
go the Python-ish -> AST route (which, from where I'm standing at the
moment, is the lowest hanging fruit).

> I don't need touchdevelop code myself, I have an mbed account I will
> email Mick later for this, as I am interested more in the platform side
> for internet IoT connectivity over Bluetooth and USB serial
> 

You're SO hardcore. :-)

We'll be able to catch up tomorrow anyway at RPi Towers when we get to
see what Damien has managed to do with MicroPython. Now, I'm really
looking forward to *that*.

N.


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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul  2 17:43:57 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 15:43:57 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <55954A6A.3050001@ntoll.org>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55954A6A.3050001@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959386133@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Ok -- looking at this now.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas H.Tollervey [mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org]
Sent: 02 July 2015 15:28
To: Howard Baker-IF&L; Mark Joyce
Cc: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: Please add these users to the Microbit repos on GitHub *before* Sunday.

On 02/07/15 14:20, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi Nicholas, Mark may have got back to you already but we are giving
> everybody access to the mBed repos instead -- it is way more correct
> and up-to-date and doesn't suffer from some of the sensitivity
> issues.
>
> Howard
>

Hi Howard,

I'm looking for the website source code. I.e. what's running on
microbit.co.uk. The GH repos appears to have some sort of approximation
of that whereas mbed does not. My aim is simple - to have a locally
running dev environment so we can test/check our work and learn about
the wider system so we understand how best to interact with it.

This Sunday is all about the feasibility of a Python-ish editor embedded
in the microbit.co.uk website - as we've discussed on several occasions.
For us to even be able to have a fighting chance of pulling this off, we
obviously need access to the code for the website to see how it works
and check that anything we produce "fits". The public TouchDevelop
repository on GitHub is also going to be very useful - especially if we
go down the route of emitting the TD AST from the Python editor.

I've taken a look around the mbed project I've been given access to and
this contains lots of C++ related repositories and, unless I'm missing
something, nothing to do with the website itself.

However, the GitHub repos has instructions such as this:

https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras/blob/master/systems/buildingTouchDevelop.md

We were going to start here on Sunday along with the instructions in the
file externaleditor.md in the same folder.

As far as I can tell mbed doesn't have what we currently need for Sunday.

Unless, of course, I'm missing something completely obvious. Pointers
and suggestions most welcome!

Actually, Jonny just emailed me about the mbed platform. Website things
are not in there. He's introducing me to the Microsofties.

N.



-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  2 17:54:41 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 16:54:41 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959386133@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55954A6A.3050001@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959386133@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55955EC1.4090209@ntoll.org>

Hi Howard,

Sorry for being such a pain in the arse... ;-)

Jonathan from Microsoft has been in touch and I have a bunch of
pointers. For the other developers to have access to the correct code I
could just make a copy from my local version of the repos and let them
only have the correct HTML/JS/whatever. That way they don't get to see
all the other docs / top secret plans for the death star. ;-)

Does this work..?

N.

On 02/07/15 16:43, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Ok -- looking at this now.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicholas H.Tollervey [mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org]
> Sent: 02 July 2015 15:28
> To: Howard Baker-IF&L; Mark Joyce
> Cc: microbit at python.org
> Subject: Re: Please add these users to the Microbit repos on GitHub *before* Sunday.
> 
> On 02/07/15 14:20, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
>> Hi Nicholas, Mark may have got back to you already but we are giving
>> everybody access to the mBed repos instead -- it is way more correct
>> and up-to-date and doesn't suffer from some of the sensitivity
>> issues.
>>
>> Howard
>>
> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> I'm looking for the website source code. I.e. what's running on
> microbit.co.uk. The GH repos appears to have some sort of approximation
> of that whereas mbed does not. My aim is simple - to have a locally
> running dev environment so we can test/check our work and learn about
> the wider system so we understand how best to interact with it.
> 
> This Sunday is all about the feasibility of a Python-ish editor embedded
> in the microbit.co.uk website - as we've discussed on several occasions.
> For us to even be able to have a fighting chance of pulling this off, we
> obviously need access to the code for the website to see how it works
> and check that anything we produce "fits". The public TouchDevelop
> repository on GitHub is also going to be very useful - especially if we
> go down the route of emitting the TD AST from the Python editor.
> 
> I've taken a look around the mbed project I've been given access to and
> this contains lots of C++ related repositories and, unless I'm missing
> something, nothing to do with the website itself.
> 
> However, the GitHub repos has instructions such as this:
> 
> https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras/blob/master/systems/buildingTouchDevelop.md
> 
> We were going to start here on Sunday along with the instructions in the
> file externaleditor.md in the same folder.
> 
> As far as I can tell mbed doesn't have what we currently need for Sunday.
> 
> Unless, of course, I'm missing something completely obvious. Pointers
> and suggestions most welcome!
> 
> Actually, Jonny just emailed me about the mbed platform. Website things
> are not in there. He's introducing me to the Microsofties.
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------
> 


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Thu Jul  2 17:56:25 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:56:25 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <55955AFB.4000602@ntoll.org>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <CABeH_Suypk8s42oJAha_V1GtL3z1iu63Kx+8iw2oPMU+6BO3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55955AFB.4000602@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVA3WPpjBuNw0zaaFrMSvcqdf4c+nLQOnCvbJD+f_ftZ4w@mail.gmail.com>

> We'll be able to catch up tomorrow anyway at RPi Towers when we get to
> see what Damien has managed to do with MicroPython

For reference, for another time, Cambridge is *a lot* easier for me than
London. (Due in part to having family there, meaning it would cost an awful
lot less)


Michael.
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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul  2 18:35:22 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:35:22 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Please add these users to the Microbit repos
 on GitHub *before* Sunday.
In-Reply-To: <55955EC1.4090209@ntoll.org>
References: <559520D7.7090209@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959385F74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55954A6A.3050001@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959386133@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55955EC1.4090209@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959386264@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi Nicholas,
You are not a pain in the arse -- we are -- and I'm sorry it is so difficult. Yes please that is an excellent solution and thank you once more.

Best wishes
Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas H.Tollervey [mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org]
Sent: 02 July 2015 16:55
To: Howard Baker-IF&L; Mark Joyce
Cc: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: Please add these users to the Microbit repos on GitHub *before* Sunday.

Hi Howard,

Sorry for being such a pain in the arse... ;-)

Jonathan from Microsoft has been in touch and I have a bunch of
pointers. For the other developers to have access to the correct code I
could just make a copy from my local version of the repos and let them
only have the correct HTML/JS/whatever. That way they don't get to see
all the other docs / top secret plans for the death star. ;-)

Does this work..?

N.

On 02/07/15 16:43, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Ok -- looking at this now.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicholas H.Tollervey [mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org]
> Sent: 02 July 2015 15:28
> To: Howard Baker-IF&L; Mark Joyce
> Cc: microbit at python.org
> Subject: Re: Please add these users to the Microbit repos on GitHub *before* Sunday.
>
> On 02/07/15 14:20, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
>> Hi Nicholas, Mark may have got back to you already but we are giving
>> everybody access to the mBed repos instead -- it is way more correct
>> and up-to-date and doesn't suffer from some of the sensitivity
>> issues.
>>
>> Howard
>>
>
> Hi Howard,
>
> I'm looking for the website source code. I.e. what's running on
> microbit.co.uk. The GH repos appears to have some sort of approximation
> of that whereas mbed does not. My aim is simple - to have a locally
> running dev environment so we can test/check our work and learn about
> the wider system so we understand how best to interact with it.
>
> This Sunday is all about the feasibility of a Python-ish editor embedded
> in the microbit.co.uk website - as we've discussed on several occasions.
> For us to even be able to have a fighting chance of pulling this off, we
> obviously need access to the code for the website to see how it works
> and check that anything we produce "fits". The public TouchDevelop
> repository on GitHub is also going to be very useful - especially if we
> go down the route of emitting the TD AST from the Python editor.
>
> I've taken a look around the mbed project I've been given access to and
> this contains lots of C++ related repositories and, unless I'm missing
> something, nothing to do with the website itself.
>
> However, the GitHub repos has instructions such as this:
>
> https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras/blob/master/systems/buildingTouchDevelop.md
>
> We were going to start here on Sunday along with the instructions in the
> file externaleditor.md in the same folder.
>
> As far as I can tell mbed doesn't have what we currently need for Sunday.
>
> Unless, of course, I'm missing something completely obvious. Pointers
> and suggestions most welcome!
>
> Actually, Jonny just emailed me about the mbed platform. Website things
> are not in there. He's introducing me to the Microsofties.
>
> N.
>
>
>
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------
>




-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Sat Jul  4 20:21:36 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2015 19:21:36 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Tomorrow's details...
Message-ID: <55982430.90306@ntoll.org>

Hi Folks,

Just to remind you about tomorrow's hack day on the feasibility of a web
based (i.e. TouchDevelop embedded) Python-ish editor:

Time:

from 10am until ???

Place:

Fry-IT
Unit 6
36-42
New Inn Yard
London EC2A 3EY

Just ring the Fry-IT buzzer.

Best wishes,

Nicholas.

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From naomi.ceder at gmail.com  Sun Jul  5 12:36:28 2015
From: naomi.ceder at gmail.com (Naomi Ceder)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 11:36:28 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] TouchDevelop playtime (what we'll be hacking
	on Sunday)
In-Reply-To: <55923895.3050903@ntoll.org>
References: <55923895.3050903@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAKvj0qTw=c8vF-R+_AyrADUTr8O59m+Gpd2iHvryGEYH=ueRgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Some quick notes about how the sign up process worked for me...

On 30 June 2015 at 07:35, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Using GOOGLE CHROME ONLY:
>
> 1) Go to https://stage.microbit.co.uk/home


right

>
> 2) Login with UN: microbit PW: bitbug42
>

yep


> 3) Go to "My Scripts" in the top right hand corner, then go to "Sign In"
>

right


> 4) Click "I'm an Adult"
>

of course

5) Tick the box to except (sic) the T&C's
>

there is no tickbox, but there is a button AFTER the following step

6) Login with one of the 3rd party choices.
>

Google worked for me

7) Enter the code - jnhrsrcsui
>

I followed the hint ("the site password might work") and used bitbug42 and
that worked

8) Go to "Create Code" in the top navigation.
>

>From here on, what I could test seemed to match the following steps.

9) Choose an Editor and select "New Project".

10) Enter a name for your program.
> 11) Write a script. (!)
> 12) To see your program run in the simulator click on "Run".
> 13) If you want to load it on your board, click on "Compile".
> 14) Wait until the program has downloaded (this can take around 30
> seconds), you should see a .hex file download in the bottom left of the
> web browser.
> 15) Plug you micro:bit into the computer via the USB (only power your
> micro:bit with one source, either the USB or the battery, NEVER BOTH).
> 16) Open up a "My Computer" window and double click on the micro:bit.
> 17) Drag and drop your program from downloaded files on to the micro:bit
> and it will automatically copy.
> 18) Once your program has been successfully flashed on the micro:bit, it
> will eject automatically like a USB.
> 19) Unplug the USB and plug it back in again and you will see your new
> program run on the board - Success!
>
> I'm in the process of collating docs so we can easily set up working
> development environments to hack on TouchDevelop on Sunday. I'm still
> trying to track down the source code so we can actually run the platform
> locally and start to figure out the best course of action.
>
> Like I said, more details later this week when I have more time to play
> with.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nicholas.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>


-- 
Naomi Ceder
https://plus.google.com/u/0/111396744045017339164/about
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Mon Jul  6 18:14:05 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 17:14:05 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Python on the MicroBit. The PSF's suggested
	solution.
Message-ID: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>

Hi Fiona and Howard,

(cc: the microbit at python.org mailing list.)

You asked for "Python on the Microbit".

We (those who participated in two recent workshops) have a
recommendation to fulfil this request. I've written a private password
protected web-based report that summarises our work and recommendation.

The details you need are as follows:

URL: http://tollervey.com/bbc/
Username: microbit
Password: snakes

(Note - all the content in the report, including the videos and images,
is password protected.)

We want to move forward on this recommendation as quickly as possible.

As a result we'd like to meet with the BBC (where "we" is myself, Damien
and someone from the Raspberry Pi Foundation) to work out how we can
best cooperate, collaborate and complement each other's work.

How does Friday afternoon at the BBC in London look to you? Late
afternoon is best for me.

What we need from the BBC is a FAST decision on how we move forward. It
would be useful if decision makers at the BBC can be in the proposed
meeting to facilitate this. Put simply, the longer the delay, the harder
this becomes for all concerned.

As always, I'm more than happy to answer any questions you may have
and/or move any mountains that appear on our roadmap.

Best wishes and best of luck for tomorrow's launch,

Nicholas.

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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Mon Jul  6 18:53:13 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 17:53:13 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Python on the MicroBit. The PSF's suggested
	solution.
In-Reply-To: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>
References: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVCBOtQ=7Te8CBVfuWqBz_XVDinfFvBThFoar+PbQmD+HQ@mail.gmail.com>

Have read the document.

Micropython works on the device? Micropython works on the device!
That's *astonishingly
awesome*, especially considering everything else discussed there.

I'm truly astonished and think that's an amazing accomplishment. It's a *far
FAR *better solution that I could have hoped for. When I was putting the
prototype micro:bit and system together this simply wasn't due to the
constraints we had then - which led to the python/c++ compiler tool chain
approach (I checked Micropython and Pymite last october). This is really
cool.

The production microbit being a larger device with more RAM/Flash allowing
this is IMO a far far better solution.

*Howard, Fiona: *The proposed option *eliminates* the need for a compile
step at all for python. You can still have a browser based editor - but
rather than having it sent to a server for compilation, you could simply
download the file/save locally. You can retain all the same branding etc,
you can have the files hosted on the same platform as the rest I would
assume (since they could be static content I guess), but you sidestep the
need to worry about the touch develop platform.

Ignoring all the technical benefits that this brings, it brings a major
extra - it means that if in a week, a year, 2 years, 5 years, hosting for a
compiler site went away, children using them in Y8, Y9, Y12 would still be
able to use their devices, so long as they were in "python mode".

*Nick:* I'm not sure how quickly your mail will be read - I know there's
things happening tomorrow, and I'll be there, so I'll see if I can point
Howard/Fiona in this direction allow with your specific requests.
(Hopefully they'll both see this beforehand)

None of this is even vaguely my call, but I think this is really really
fantastic progress :-)


Michael.

On 6 July 2015 at 17:14, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi Fiona and Howard,
>
> (cc: the microbit at python.org mailing list.)
>
> You asked for "Python on the Microbit".
>
> We (those who participated in two recent workshops) have a
> recommendation to fulfil this request. I've written a private password
> protected web-based report that summarises our work and recommendation.
>
> The details you need are as follows:
>
> URL: http://tollervey.com/bbc/
> Username: microbit
> Password: snakes
>
> (Note - all the content in the report, including the videos and images,
> is password protected.)
>
> We want to move forward on this recommendation as quickly as possible.
>
> As a result we'd like to meet with the BBC (where "we" is myself, Damien
> and someone from the Raspberry Pi Foundation) to work out how we can
> best cooperate, collaborate and complement each other's work.
>
> How does Friday afternoon at the BBC in London look to you? Late
> afternoon is best for me.
>
> What we need from the BBC is a FAST decision on how we move forward. It
> would be useful if decision makers at the BBC can be in the proposed
> meeting to facilitate this. Put simply, the longer the delay, the harder
> this becomes for all concerned.
>
> As always, I'm more than happy to answer any questions you may have
> and/or move any mountains that appear on our roadmap.
>
> Best wishes and best of luck for tomorrow's launch,
>
> Nicholas.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Mon Jul  6 19:02:27 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 18:02:27 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Python on the MicroBit. The PSF's suggested
 solution.
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVCBOtQ=7Te8CBVfuWqBz_XVDinfFvBThFoar+PbQmD+HQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVCBOtQ=7Te8CBVfuWqBz_XVDinfFvBThFoar+PbQmD+HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559AB4A3.4020302@ntoll.org>

Michael,

Many thanks for you positive feedback. :-)

On 06/07/15 17:53, Michael wrote:
> Have read the document. 
> 
> Micropython works on the device? Micropython works on the device! That's
> *_astonishingly awesome_*, especially considering everything else
> discussed there. 
> 

You can thank Damien for that. He deserves a gold star for making it happen.

> I'm truly astonished and think that's an amazing accomplishment. It's a
> *far FAR *better solution that I could have hoped for. When I was
> putting the prototype micro:bit and system together this simply wasn't
> due to the constraints we had then - which led to the python/c++
> compiler tool chain approach (I checked Micropython and Pymite last
> october). This is really cool.
> 
> The production microbit being a larger device with more RAM/Flash
> allowing this is IMO a far far better solution.
> 

Exactly. It also helps that the chief ARM engineer involved with the
project (Jonny - also of this parish) is Damien's next door neighbour. ;-)

> *Howard, Fiona: *The proposed option /*eliminates*/ the need for a
> compile step at all for python. You can still have a browser based
> editor - but rather than having it sent to a server for compilation, you
> could simply download the file/save locally. You can retain all the same
> branding etc, you can have the files hosted on the same platform as the
> rest I would assume (since they could be static content I guess), but
> you sidestep the need to worry about the touch develop platform.
> 

It eliminates a browser too. Personally this is a huge step. Browser
based editors are (to be honest) naff when compared to native editors
that kids and teachers will already know.

> Ignoring all the technical benefits that this brings, it brings a major
> extra - it means that if in a week, a year, 2 years, 5 years, hosting
> for a compiler site went away, children using them in Y8, Y9, Y12 would
> still be able to use their devices, so long as they were in "python mode".
> 

That's an excellent point. I wish I'd thought of that! ;-)

It's more of an argument in our favour.

> *Nick:* I'm not sure how quickly your mail will be read - I know there's
> things happening tomorrow, and I'll be there, so I'll see if I can point
> Howard/Fiona in this direction allow with your specific requests.
> (Hopefully they'll both see this beforehand)
> 

I totally understand. "Real work" is getting in my way tomorrow but I
can't stress how important it is that we move forward with the BBC on
these efforts. A Friday meeting would be ideal.

It's not resources or people that are the major hurdle here - rather
time. The more of it we have, the better will be the end result.

> None of this is even vaguely my call, but I think this is really really
> fantastic progress :-)
> 

You're welcome..!

I might add that none of this would have been possible without your
initial work or the incredibly useful posts you have made to this
mailing list.

Best wishes and best of luck tomorrow,

Nicholas.

> 
> Michael.
> 
> On 6 July 2015 at 17:14, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org
> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Fiona and Howard,
> 
>     (cc: the microbit at python.org <mailto:microbit at python.org> mailing list.)
> 
>     You asked for "Python on the Microbit".
> 
>     We (those who participated in two recent workshops) have a
>     recommendation to fulfil this request. I've written a private password
>     protected web-based report that summarises our work and recommendation.
> 
>     The details you need are as follows:
> 
>     URL: http://tollervey.com/bbc/
>     Username: microbit
>     Password: snakes
> 
>     (Note - all the content in the report, including the videos and images,
>     is password protected.)
> 
>     We want to move forward on this recommendation as quickly as possible.
> 
>     As a result we'd like to meet with the BBC (where "we" is myself, Damien
>     and someone from the Raspberry Pi Foundation) to work out how we can
>     best cooperate, collaborate and complement each other's work.
> 
>     How does Friday afternoon at the BBC in London look to you? Late
>     afternoon is best for me.
> 
>     What we need from the BBC is a FAST decision on how we move forward. It
>     would be useful if decision makers at the BBC can be in the proposed
>     meeting to facilitate this. Put simply, the longer the delay, the harder
>     this becomes for all concerned.
> 
>     As always, I'm more than happy to answer any questions you may have
>     and/or move any mountains that appear on our roadmap.
> 
>     Best wishes and best of luck for tomorrow's launch,
> 
>     Nicholas.
> 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Microbit mailing list
>     Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Mon Jul  6 19:29:12 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 18:29:12 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Python on the MicroBit. The PSF's suggested
	solution.
In-Reply-To: <559AB4A3.4020302@ntoll.org>
References: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVCBOtQ=7Te8CBVfuWqBz_XVDinfFvBThFoar+PbQmD+HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559AB4A3.4020302@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVAkGD-Gq72L4cDSyzWhZ-ggubsB_VogmpLAmYg_0SyC5w@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 July 2015 at 18:02, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
>
> On 06/07/15 17:53, Michael wrote:
> > Have read the document.
> >
> > Micropython works on the device? Micropython works on the device! That's
> > *_astonishingly awesome_*, especially considering everything else
> > discussed there.
> >
>
> You can thank Damien for that. He deserves a gold star for making it
> happen.


Indeed.



> Exactly. It also helps that the chief ARM engineer involved with the
> project (Jonny - also of this parish) is Damien's next door neighbour. ;-)
>

There are times when I wonder if it would be a good idea to move back to
Cambridge :-)


> > *Howard, Fiona: *The proposed option /*eliminates*/ the need for a
> > compile step at all for python. You can still have a browser based
> > editor - but rather than having it sent to a server for compilation, you
> > could simply download the file/save locally. You can retain all the same
> > branding etc, you can have the files hosted on the same platform as the
> > rest I would assume (since they could be static content I guess), but
> > you sidestep the need to worry about the touch develop platform.
> >
>
> It eliminates a browser too. Personally this is a huge step. Browser
> based editors are (to be honest) naff when compared to native editors
> that kids and teachers will already know.
>

The thing about keeping the browser element is that it sits in a place
where they normally go to for the rest of the ecosystem, that creates data
in the right format - plain text. Ask a non-techie what plain text is, and
they're likely to say something with text, maybe headings, bullet lists,
bold and italic. (I got convinced of that argument about a decade ago)

Eliminating the *dependency* on it though is great.

> Ignoring all the technical benefits that this brings, it brings a major
> > extra - it means that if in a week, a year, 2 years, 5 years, hosting
> > for a compiler site went away, children using them in Y8, Y9, Y12 would
> > still be able to use their devices, so long as they were in "python
> mode".
> >
>
> That's an excellent point. I wish I'd thought of that! ;-)
>

The risk of "what happens if the compiler is taken away from you" is one
which we've discussed more than a few times. If that happens you have
little choice but to build your own. Sidestepping it is neat.

It's not resources or people that are the major hurdle here - rather
> time. The more of it we have, the better will be the end result.


Indeed.

I vaguely reminded of the film "When Worlds Collide", where the catchprase
there is "Time is our most precious resource".


> > None of this is even vaguely my call, but I think this is really really
> > fantastic progress :-)
> >
>
> You're welcome..!
>
> I might add that none of this would have been possible without your
> initial work or the incredibly useful posts you have made to this
> mailing list.
>

Thanks - I try to be useful :)

Regards,


Michael.
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 12:17:53 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:17:53 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
Message-ID: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>

FYI...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311

No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.

N.

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From harry at pythonanywhere.com  Tue Jul  7 12:21:02 2015
From: harry at pythonanywhere.com (Harry Percival)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:21:02 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <559BA80E.7030303@pythonanywhere.com>

yes, cf my last email, are we still under nda or can we talk about how 
the device will run python?

On 07/07/15 11:17, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> FYI...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311
>
> No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.
>
> N.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

Rgds,
Harry + the PythonAnywhere team.

-- 
Harry Percival
Developer
harry at pythonanywhere.com

PythonAnywhere - a fully browser-based Python development and hosting environment
<http://www.pythonanywhere.com/>

PythonAnywhere LLP
17a Clerkenwell Road, London EC1M 5RD, UK
VAT No.: GB 893 5643 79
Registered in England and Wales as company number OC378414.
Registered address: 28 Ely Place, 3rd Floor, London EC1N 6TD, UK

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 12:23:57 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:23:57 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BA80E.7030303@pythonanywhere.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org> <559BA80E.7030303@pythonanywhere.com>
Message-ID: <559BA8BD.1090305@ntoll.org>

Hi Harry,

Well, the device specification, capabilities and "look" have been
revealed in public and Damien's MicroPython project is open-source.

To be honest, I have no idea.

Howard..? Some guidance would be helpful.

N.

On 07/07/15 11:21, Harry Percival wrote:
> yes, cf my last email, are we still under nda or can we talk about how
> the device will run python?
> 
> On 07/07/15 11:17, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
>> FYI...
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311
>>
>> No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.
>>
>> N.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Microbit mailing list
>> Microbit at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
> Rgds,
> Harry + the PythonAnywhere team.
> 
> -- 
> Harry Percival
> Developer
> harry at pythonanywhere.com
> 
> PythonAnywhere - a fully browser-based Python development and hosting environment
> <http://www.pythonanywhere.com/>
> 
> PythonAnywhere LLP
> 17a Clerkenwell Road, London EC1M 5RD, UK
> VAT No.: GB 893 5643 79
> Registered in England and Wales as company number OC378414.
> Registered address: 28 Ely Place, 3rd Floor, London EC1N 6TD, UK
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From damien.p.george at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 12:37:46 2015
From: damien.p.george at gmail.com (Damien George)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 11:37:46 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BA8BD.1090305@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org> <559BA80E.7030303@pythonanywhere.com>
 <559BA8BD.1090305@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CANw+MzndnTgtJfr-ptsfuFYki_v_GpsQn2FHsa=ueB_aH3BdsA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, it would be nice if we could talk about Python + micro:bit in the
open, so we can do some social-media advertising of our own :)

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> Hi Harry,
>
> Well, the device specification, capabilities and "look" have been
> revealed in public and Damien's MicroPython project is open-source.
>
> To be honest, I have no idea.
>
> Howard..? Some guidance would be helpful.
>
> N.
>
> On 07/07/15 11:21, Harry Percival wrote:
>> yes, cf my last email, are we still under nda or can we talk about how
>> the device will run python?
>>
>> On 07/07/15 11:17, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
>>> FYI...
>>>
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311
>>>
>>> No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.
>>>
>>> N.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Microbit mailing list
>>> Microbit at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>>
>> Rgds,
>> Harry + the PythonAnywhere team.
>>
>> --
>> Harry Percival
>> Developer
>> harry at pythonanywhere.com
>>
>> PythonAnywhere - a fully browser-based Python development and hosting environment
>> <http://www.pythonanywhere.com/>
>>
>> PythonAnywhere LLP
>> 17a Clerkenwell Road, London EC1M 5RD, UK
>> VAT No.: GB 893 5643 79
>> Registered in England and Wales as company number OC378414.
>> Registered address: 28 Ely Place, 3rd Floor, London EC1N 6TD, UK
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Microbit mailing list
>> Microbit at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>

From harry at pythonanywhere.com  Tue Jul  7 11:56:24 2015
From: harry at pythonanywhere.com (Harry Percival)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 10:56:24 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Python on the MicroBit. The PSF's suggested
 solution.
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVAkGD-Gq72L4cDSyzWhZ-ggubsB_VogmpLAmYg_0SyC5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVCBOtQ=7Te8CBVfuWqBz_XVDinfFvBThFoar+PbQmD+HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559AB4A3.4020302@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVAkGD-Gq72L4cDSyzWhZ-ggubsB_VogmpLAmYg_0SyC5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559BA248.3090008@pythonanywhere.com>

Are we still under NDA?  I found myself wanting to respond to a grumpy 
tweet by tech journalist Glynn Moody about how he thinks the Microbit is 
locked-in to closed-source windows software....

https://twitter.com/glynmoody/status/618353513379332096


On 06/07/15 18:29, Michael wrote:
>
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 18:02, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org 
> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 06/07/15 17:53, Michael wrote:
>     > Have read the document.
>     >
>     > Micropython works on the device? Micropython works on the
>     device! That's
>     > *_astonishingly awesome_*, especially considering everything else
>     > discussed there.
>     >
>
>     You can thank Damien for that. He deserves a gold star for making
>     it happen.
>
>
> Indeed.
>
>     Exactly. It also helps that the chief ARM engineer involved with the
>     project (Jonny - also of this parish) is Damien's next door
>     neighbour. ;-)
>
>
> There are times when I wonder if it would be a good idea to move back 
> to Cambridge :-)
>
>     > *Howard, Fiona: *The proposed option /*eliminates*/ the need for a
>     > compile step at all for python. You can still have a browser based
>     > editor - but rather than having it sent to a server for
>     compilation, you
>     > could simply download the file/save locally. You can retain all
>     the same
>     > branding etc, you can have the files hosted on the same platform
>     as the
>     > rest I would assume (since they could be static content I
>     guess), but
>     > you sidestep the need to worry about the touch develop platform.
>     >
>
>     It eliminates a browser too. Personally this is a huge step. Browser
>     based editors are (to be honest) naff when compared to native editors
>     that kids and teachers will already know.
>
>
> The thing about keeping the browser element is that it sits in a place 
> where they normally go to for the rest of the ecosystem, that creates 
> data in the right format - plain text. Ask a non-techie what plain 
> text is, and they're likely to say something with text, maybe 
> headings, bullet lists, bold and italic. (I got convinced of that 
> argument about a decade ago)
>
> Eliminating the *dependency* on it though is great.
>
>     > Ignoring all the technical benefits that this brings, it brings
>     a major
>     > extra - it means that if in a week, a year, 2 years, 5 years,
>     hosting
>     > for a compiler site went away, children using them in Y8, Y9,
>     Y12 would
>     > still be able to use their devices, so long as they were in
>     "python mode".
>     >
>
>     That's an excellent point. I wish I'd thought of that! ;-)
>
>
> The risk of "what happens if the compiler is taken away from you" is 
> one which we've discussed more than a few times. If that happens you 
> have little choice but to build your own. Sidestepping it is neat.
>
>     It's not resources or people that are the major hurdle here - rather
>     time. The more of it we have, the better will be the end result.
>
>
> Indeed.
>
> I vaguely reminded of the film "When Worlds Collide", where the 
> catchprase there is "Time is our most precious resource".
>
>     > None of this is even vaguely my call, but I think this is really
>     really
>     > fantastic progress :-)
>     >
>
>     You're welcome..!
>
>     I might add that none of this would have been possible without your
>     initial work or the incredibly useful posts you have made to this
>     mailing list.
>
>
> Thanks - I try to be useful :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

Rgds,
Harry + the PythonAnywhere team.

-- 
Harry Percival
Developer
harry at pythonanywhere.com

PythonAnywhere - a fully browser-based Python development and hosting environment
<http://www.pythonanywhere.com/>

PythonAnywhere LLP
17a Clerkenwell Road, London EC1M 5RD, UK
VAT No.: GB 893 5643 79
Registered in England and Wales as company number OC378414.
Registered address: 28 Ely Place, 3rd Floor, London EC1N 6TD, UK

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 12:49:16 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:49:16 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Python on the MicroBit. The PSF's suggested
 solution.
In-Reply-To: <559BA248.3090008@pythonanywhere.com>
References: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVCBOtQ=7Te8CBVfuWqBz_XVDinfFvBThFoar+PbQmD+HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559AB4A3.4020302@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVAkGD-Gq72L4cDSyzWhZ-ggubsB_VogmpLAmYg_0SyC5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BA248.3090008@pythonanywhere.com>
Message-ID: <559BAEAC.1020602@ntoll.org>

On 07/07/15 10:56, Harry Percival wrote:
> Are we still under NDA?  I found myself wanting to respond to a grumpy
> tweet by tech journalist Glynn Moody about how he thinks the Microbit is
> locked-in to closed-source windows software....
> 
> https://twitter.com/glynmoody/status/618353513379332096
> 

I'll reply and on my head be it.

N.


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 12:52:27 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:52:27 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CANw+MzndnTgtJfr-ptsfuFYki_v_GpsQn2FHsa=ueB_aH3BdsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org> <559BA80E.7030303@pythonanywhere.com>
 <559BA8BD.1090305@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+MzndnTgtJfr-ptsfuFYki_v_GpsQn2FHsa=ueB_aH3BdsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559BAF6B.6090800@ntoll.org>

On 07/07/15 11:37, Damien George wrote:
> Yes, it would be nice if we could talk about Python + micro:bit in the
> open, so we can do some social-media advertising of our own :)
> 

Tell me about it.

N.


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 13:03:09 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 12:03:09 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CANw+MzndnTgtJfr-ptsfuFYki_v_GpsQn2FHsa=ueB_aH3BdsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org> <559BA80E.7030303@pythonanywhere.com>
 <559BA8BD.1090305@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+MzndnTgtJfr-ptsfuFYki_v_GpsQn2FHsa=ueB_aH3BdsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559BB1ED.6090404@ntoll.org>

OK... I've replied with vague reply containing nothing but information
that's already public.

N.

On 07/07/15 11:37, Damien George wrote:
> Yes, it would be nice if we could talk about Python + micro:bit in the
> open, so we can do some social-media advertising of our own :)
> 
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
>> Hi Harry,
>>
>> Well, the device specification, capabilities and "look" have been
>> revealed in public and Damien's MicroPython project is open-source.
>>
>> To be honest, I have no idea.
>>
>> Howard..? Some guidance would be helpful.
>>
>> N.
>>
>> On 07/07/15 11:21, Harry Percival wrote:
>>> yes, cf my last email, are we still under nda or can we talk about how
>>> the device will run python?
>>>
>>> On 07/07/15 11:17, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
>>>> FYI...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311
>>>>
>>>> No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.
>>>>
>>>> N.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Microbit mailing list
>>>> Microbit at python.org
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>>>
>>> Rgds,
>>> Harry + the PythonAnywhere team.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Harry Percival
>>> Developer
>>> harry at pythonanywhere.com
>>>
>>> PythonAnywhere - a fully browser-based Python development and hosting environment
>>> <http://www.pythonanywhere.com/>
>>>
>>> PythonAnywhere LLP
>>> 17a Clerkenwell Road, London EC1M 5RD, UK
>>> VAT No.: GB 893 5643 79
>>> Registered in England and Wales as company number OC378414.
>>> Registered address: 28 Ely Place, 3rd Floor, London EC1N 6TD, UK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Microbit mailing list
>>> Microbit at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Microbit mailing list
>> Microbit at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 13:17:42 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 12:17:42 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube
Message-ID: <559BB556.9030502@ntoll.org>

Hi Folks,

Now the BBC micro:bit cat is out of the bag I've uploaded the following
*private* YouTube videos of MicroPython running on the micro:bit.

Friday at RPi Towers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdjx0Yjexq4 - MicroPython on a BBC
micro:bit - first GPIO success via a Raspberry Pi (and you hear me get
really excited)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y_hi_usf-4 - MicroPython, Raspberry Pi
and BBC micro:bit LED disco lights in 7 lines of Python.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDdfheyRno - MicroPython / micro:bit
burglar alarm connected to a Raspberry Pi

Damien's MicroPython Demos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyzaGZFRyTI - Matrix Rain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgpbM0O05rU - Game of Life. GAME OF
LIFE!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XWChj7hFYk - Blinkenlights.

For entertainment purposes only!!!

;-)

N.

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From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Tue Jul  7 15:20:16 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 14:20:16 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
public launch today.

Sent from my new HTC
On Jul 7, 2015 11:17 AM, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> FYI...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311
>
> No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.
>
> N.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 15:46:29 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 14:46:29 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>

On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
> Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
> public launch today.
> 

Great stuff! I hope it went well.

David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
we're doing.

*Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
books on Minecraft and Python programming.

:-)

N.


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 16:41:10 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:41:10 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Python on the MicroBit. The PSF's suggested
	solution.
In-Reply-To: <559BAEAC.1020602@ntoll.org>
References: <559AA94D.6030102@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVCBOtQ=7Te8CBVfuWqBz_XVDinfFvBThFoar+PbQmD+HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559AB4A3.4020302@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVAkGD-Gq72L4cDSyzWhZ-ggubsB_VogmpLAmYg_0SyC5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BA248.3090008@pythonanywhere.com> <559BAEAC.1020602@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVBLu5ALUAE-fFSNdq_su0e_qoUBJjV98DPQBO69xy19VQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've said some reassuring things there. Thanks for raising this. The sooner
we respond to things that we know are wrong, the less time they have to
go bad.

With NDA's if it's public, it's public. If it's not, it's not, and
still under NDA.

Part of the point of multiple editors - after all is specifically to
avoid the platform
being locked to any one thing - so that's an easy one. (The main point
being really
for pedagogical needs!)


Michael.


On 07/07/2015, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> On 07/07/15 10:56, Harry Percival wrote:
>> Are we still under NDA?  I found myself wanting to respond to a grumpy
>> tweet by tech journalist Glynn Moody about how he thinks the Microbit is
>> locked-in to closed-source windows software....
>>
>> https://twitter.com/glynmoody/status/618353513379332096
>>
>
> I'll reply and on my head be it.
>
> N.
>
>
>

From sparks.m at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 16:53:44 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:53:44 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVDEfQDdzcS6ytYnoVdtY7HS8OKBmh2ZRd9ufRo_oPRFZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Lots of mention of python here:

<shameless plug>
www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2015/07/prototyping-the-bbc-microbit
</shameless plug>

The original announcement said that the device will be programmable
using python, it never said how. The fact that the PSF is a partner was
loud and proud in the announcements today.

Python isn't a secret. I think Micropython is simply undecided. I do
(personally)
think it's the preferred solution.

Saying how that is happening I think requires a decision, and I suspect
that if the concensus amongst pythonistas here is that micropython is
the obvious way forward (it is to me), then the key question my
colleagues would have would be "how do we make that fit into the
workflow for the rest of the system".

That I think is a trivial step, and we get agreement to do that.

My suggestion incidentally, based on having built a system with an API for
Python, Javascript, and C++ would be to follow the same API as the DAL
where possible.

If you want a web simulator for python then (if you can't reuse the touch
develop one) would be to use Brython - as the path of least resistance.
(Brython's quite funky if you've not seen it)

As they say, bring answers, not questions. "We think this is the best way
forward so we're doing this".

That said, there may be sensitivities that I'm not aware of, so it'd be worth
pinging people later on.


Michael.


On 07/07/2015, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
>> Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
>> public launch today.
>>
>
> Great stuff! I hope it went well.
>
> David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
> we're doing.
>
> *Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
> and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
> books on Minecraft and Python programming.
>
> :-)
>
> N.
>
>
>

From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  7 17:04:04 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:04:04 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389DC7@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

We?ve been talking about it!!

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of David Whale
Sent: 07 July 2015 14:20
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media


Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the public launch today.

Sent from my new HTC
On Jul 7, 2015 11:17 AM, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
FYI...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311

No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.

N.


_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit



----------------------------

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  7 17:10:39 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:10:39 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389DE3@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

It was a great event and staggering to see all the things people had made with the Micro:bit. David's egg flipping game was a true star and took the Micro:bit to new heights.

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 07 July 2015 14:46
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
> Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
> public launch today.
> 

Great stuff! I hope it went well.

David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
we're doing.

*Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
books on Minecraft and Python programming.

:-)

N.



From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Jul  7 17:11:28 2015
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 16:11:28 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVDEfQDdzcS6ytYnoVdtY7HS8OKBmh2ZRd9ufRo_oPRFZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVDEfQDdzcS6ytYnoVdtY7HS8OKBmh2ZRd9ufRo_oPRFZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559BEC20.2030800@timgolden.me.uk>

On 07/07/2015 15:53, Michael wrote:
> Saying how that is happening I think requires a decision, and I suspect
> that if the concensus amongst pythonistas here is that micropython is
> the obvious way forward (it is to me), then the key question my
> colleagues would have would be "how do we make that fit into the
> workflow for the rest of the system".

Absolutely. When we were looking at this whole thing on Sunday last,
MicroPython seemed so obviously the best tool for the job that all the
other work we were doing to *try* to come up with a TouchDevelop
solution was really an exercise in due diligence because we owed it to
the BBC to *try* to produce a solution to fit in with their preferred
platform.

Nicholas' statement yesterday of our conclusions from Sunday was, I
believe, very much a case of: we don't think we can do what you want,
but here's a proposal which we think is a great way forward.

I believe the BBC could do very well to get behind this along the lines
of "for more advanced users, and converging nicely with teachers'
existing tools & materials [ie all the materials available for Python
from RPi and elsewhere], you can drop Python files directly on the
Microbit and have them run, thanks to the wonders of MicroPython!"

TJG

From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Jul  7 17:13:41 2015
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 16:13:41 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BEC20.2030800@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVDEfQDdzcS6ytYnoVdtY7HS8OKBmh2ZRd9ufRo_oPRFZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BEC20.2030800@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <559BECA5.8030104@timgolden.me.uk>

On 07/07/2015 16:11, Tim Golden wrote:
> ... all the
> other work we were doing to *try* to come up with a TouchDevelop
> solution ... we owed it to the BBC to *try* to produce a solution ...

(I seem to be over-fond of emphasising the word "try". I'm sure there's
some psychological point to be made there...)

TJG

From sparks.m at gmail.com  Tue Jul  7 17:16:37 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 16:16:37 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389DC7@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389DC7@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVBRH=6_50cgoMw0NS3bUT+t4hUmju5-aWwuaWW5nE43zA@mail.gmail.com>

Howard,


Did we mention micro-python? I hope so. (So much got said and shown :-)

Seems like *the* solution to me. We could have a completely offline, no network
required, local version including graphical (blockly or similar)
editor using that
thinking about it. That's be great.

Michael.

On 07/07/2015, Howard Baker-IF&L <howard.baker at bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> We?ve been talking about it!!
>
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org]
> On Behalf Of David Whale
> Sent: 07 July 2015 14:20
> To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
> Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
>
>
> Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
> public launch today.
>
> Sent from my new HTC
> On Jul 7, 2015 11:17 AM, "Nicholas H.Tollervey"
> <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
> FYI...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311
>
> No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.
>
> N.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
>
> ----------------------------
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal
> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance
> on it and notify the sender immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
> ---------------------
>

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 17:33:56 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 16:33:56 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389DC7@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389DC7@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <559BF164.4070802@ntoll.org>

On 07/07/15 16:04, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> We?ve been talking about it!!
> 

Good! Looking forward to your feedback. :-)

I hope you (the BBC collectively) realise we're proposing something that
can Pythonically complement the existing work and that there is talent
and willing enough within the UK Python community to produce the goods
(both in terms of a website at microbit.python.org and educational
resources). The most urgent aspect of this is working out how it "slots
in" to the BBC's plans.

As Sunday demonstrated, despite our best efforts, TouchDevelop is not a
viable solution where Python is concerned for all the reasons stated in
the report I sent over yesterday afternoon.

As Friday at RPi towers and Michael's responses to this list have shown
- Damien's amazing work on MicroPython has created a great sense of
excitement in those who've seen it in action.

Happy to answer any questions you may have.

Would be great if we could organise a meeting on Friday! Like I said,
time is the thing we can't make more of - the sooner we start the better
for all.

Best wishes,

Nicholas.

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul  7 17:36:11 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 16:36:11 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVBRH=6_50cgoMw0NS3bUT+t4hUmju5-aWwuaWW5nE43zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389DC7@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <CAB+QZVBRH=6_50cgoMw0NS3bUT+t4hUmju5-aWwuaWW5nE43zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559BF1EB.9090501@ntoll.org>

On 07/07/15 16:16, Michael wrote:
> Seems like *the* solution to me. We could have a completely offline, no network
> required, local version including graphical (blockly or similar)
> editor using that
> thinking about it. That's be great.
> 

MicroPython is editor agnostic. I know Blockly can emit standard Python
(as a built in feature) which makes it a viable solution. In fact, "make
a Blockly -> MicroPython editor" would be a great way to engage the
wider Python community.

N.


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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  7 18:26:49 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 16:26:49 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BA8BD.1090305@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org> <559BA80E.7030303@pythonanywhere.com>
 <559BA8BD.1090305@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959389F57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi,
Sorry for the delay getting back. Went from amazing launch event to meeting to another meeting. I believe today was the start of something big, and I mean the start -- it just gets bigger from here. Looking at what people had built with the Micro:bit over the last couple of weeks was truly staggering -- when we add all the other things it can do and what people have done with it, people will be stunned. I don't quite know either how we talk about what you have been doing. Let me find out quickly and get back.

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 07 July 2015 11:24
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

Hi Harry,

Well, the device specification, capabilities and "look" have been
revealed in public and Damien's MicroPython project is open-source.

To be honest, I have no idea.

Howard..? Some guidance would be helpful.

N.

On 07/07/15 11:21, Harry Percival wrote:
> yes, cf my last email, are we still under nda or can we talk about how
> the device will run python?
> 
> On 07/07/15 11:17, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
>> FYI...
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33409311
>>
>> No mention of Python - but that's something we can help with.
>>
>> N.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Microbit mailing list
>> Microbit at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
> Rgds,
> Harry + the PythonAnywhere team.
> 
> -- 
> Harry Percival
> Developer
> harry at pythonanywhere.com
> 
> PythonAnywhere - a fully browser-based Python development and hosting environment
> <http://www.pythonanywhere.com/>
> 
> PythonAnywhere LLP
> 17a Clerkenwell Road, London EC1M 5RD, UK
> VAT No.: GB 893 5643 79
> Registered in England and Wales as company number OC378414.
> Registered address: 28 Ely Place, 3rd Floor, London EC1N 6TD, UK
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 



From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Wed Jul  8 09:05:49 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 08:05:49 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Nicholas,

I'm not ignoring you lot, just been *very* busy these last few days, from
all angles, and will be still for a week or so, sorry!

I'm thinking through the proposals to think what I could add to the already
excellent comments and observations made by others.

I think, still, I'm really drawn to the power of having a blocks like
interface with a "show code" button that shows the python, to provide a
smooth and natural transition for coders from a visual paradigm to a text
paradigm - think of it as the python equivalent of the web "view source"
where people look behind the scenes on a web page, work out how it works,
start hacking their own html, get into a bit of javascript, get into a bit
of php, and many get into computing that way.

There is a subtle but important difference between a "show-code" option
(Michael's origional blockly) and a "convert forwards only" option (blocks
to touch develop one way conversion) - both with their own benefits and
pitfalls and differences.


I also need to personally think through whether two pages of code on a
128/256K device ("twice the size of game of life") without the bluetooth
connectivity, gives enough opportunity for doing useful and engaging things
with that amount of code. I'm not sure about that one yet, to be honest. It
seems we've burnt a large amount of code space to get a tiny amount of user
app space. One way to frame this might be to roughly calculate what
percentage of flash is the interpreter and runtime, and what percentage is
user code - how does this compare to the existing blocks or touch develop
solutions (hard to compare as code density might differ significantly). But
if it's 95%/5%, interpreter/user app, I'm really not sure about that. Be
nice to have a ball park figure on the split at present. Is that all
interpreter, or is it libraries too - I''m guessing it's not possible to
strip unused libraries due to the dynamic nature of python?


Could we show the python experience to a bunch of 11 year olds and a bunch
of school teachers, perhaps, and see what they think of it - that is the
target audience, after all?


There's also *something* there that Michael mentioned about the contained
experience of working inside the ecosystem of a website with all the
interactions and sharing that happens, compared to an offline editor with
an independent community on a separate page - I've not quite thought
through both sides of that yet properly. There definitely is something
about the immersive experience of the community and tutorials and examples
and editor all being in one place, that I hadn't really seen before this
BBC project - there's a "thing" there I'm trying to form some view on, but
it does feel very exciting when you use it.

The TouchDevelop shared online library feature is a stroke of genius that I
hadn't realised until I experienced it first hand this week - perhaps an
option to "import" and it does a live search for community contributed
libraries and just includes them for use like the TouchDevelop experience
does? Just a thought. The immutable published library concept gives
educators in particular a way to focus learners on the important learning
at the top of the app, whilst giving them drill-down to the detail if they
want it - I've learnt more about TouchDevelop by clicking through the
library detail than I have by reading any documentation, to be honest.

There is also that thing about teachers have spent a couple of years
up-skilling in Python, and something new and different is coming along. It
would be good to provide a range of directions both in and out of the
experience for learners and teachers, so they both be attracted to it, and
drawn onwards to the next thing, in new and interesting ways. Python could
be as much a "draw in" to the experience, as well as a "draw out and
onwards" to bigger systems like Raspberry Pi, for example.

Still thinking, but these are my initial thoughts for now. Sorry to be less
than helpful at this stage.

David,


___________________________________________________________
David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
*Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex*

email:  dwhale at theiet.org
twitter: @whaleygeek
blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk

Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" <http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG>
- lets get kids coding!


On 7 July 2015 at 14:46, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
> > Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
> > public launch today.
> >
>
> Great stuff! I hope it went well.
>
> David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
> we're doing.
>
> *Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
> and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
> books on Minecraft and Python programming.
>
> :-)
>
> N.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From damien.p.george at gmail.com  Wed Jul  8 10:17:16 2015
From: damien.p.george at gmail.com (Damien George)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 09:17:16 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>

David, I'd just like to clarify a few points regarding MicroPython and
its use on the micro:bit:

1. MicroPython does not aim at all to replace TouchDevelop and all the
goodness that the existing TouchDevelop environment brings.  Instead
MicroPython provides a different (and more traditional) way of
programming the device and therefore gives more options to those who
have one, and more options to teachers to decide what's the
best/easiest way for them to teach their students.

2. If Python is to run on the device then MicroPython is the easiest
way to make this happen.  The report by Nicholas points out that it's
going to be very hard to put a Python-like front end on the
TouchDevelop system.

3. A lot of the niceties that you bring up about the TouchDevelop
environment could also be implemented on top of the MicroPython
paradigm (eg online sharing of code, libraries).  Now that we know
that the core technology works (ie MicroPython runs), if we get the
approval from the BBC that this is the way to go then we can get to
work making the MicroPython+micro:bit ecosystem as easy and enjoyable
as possible to use.

4. The limitation of script size is not about flash but rather RAM.
The script must be compiled on the device so needs a certain amount of
RAM to hold the bytecode.  Hence the limitation.  An alternative would
be to compile to bytecode off the device (eg in the cloud) and run the
bytecode from flash.  Then you would be allowed to write very large
scripts.  But this means you are relying on internet connectivity and
an online service.  As per point 1 above, MicroPython tries to bring
something different to the table in terms of no reliance on the web
(among other things), and I think it's good to keep this property.
Also note that with BLE enabled the traditional solutions
(TouchDevelop, mbed) don't get much RAM/flash to play with and the
programs you can write are going to be limited.

Cheers,
Damien.


On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:05 AM, David Whale <david at thinkingbinaries.com> wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
>
> I'm not ignoring you lot, just been *very* busy these last few days, from
> all angles, and will be still for a week or so, sorry!
>
> I'm thinking through the proposals to think what I could add to the already
> excellent comments and observations made by others.
>
> I think, still, I'm really drawn to the power of having a blocks like
> interface with a "show code" button that shows the python, to provide a
> smooth and natural transition for coders from a visual paradigm to a text
> paradigm - think of it as the python equivalent of the web "view source"
> where people look behind the scenes on a web page, work out how it works,
> start hacking their own html, get into a bit of javascript, get into a bit
> of php, and many get into computing that way.
>
> There is a subtle but important difference between a "show-code" option
> (Michael's origional blockly) and a "convert forwards only" option (blocks
> to touch develop one way conversion) - both with their own benefits and
> pitfalls and differences.
>
>
> I also need to personally think through whether two pages of code on a
> 128/256K device ("twice the size of game of life") without the bluetooth
> connectivity, gives enough opportunity for doing useful and engaging things
> with that amount of code. I'm not sure about that one yet, to be honest. It
> seems we've burnt a large amount of code space to get a tiny amount of user
> app space. One way to frame this might be to roughly calculate what
> percentage of flash is the interpreter and runtime, and what percentage is
> user code - how does this compare to the existing blocks or touch develop
> solutions (hard to compare as code density might differ significantly). But
> if it's 95%/5%, interpreter/user app, I'm really not sure about that. Be
> nice to have a ball park figure on the split at present. Is that all
> interpreter, or is it libraries too - I''m guessing it's not possible to
> strip unused libraries due to the dynamic nature of python?
>
>
> Could we show the python experience to a bunch of 11 year olds and a bunch
> of school teachers, perhaps, and see what they think of it - that is the
> target audience, after all?
>
>
> There's also *something* there that Michael mentioned about the contained
> experience of working inside the ecosystem of a website with all the
> interactions and sharing that happens, compared to an offline editor with an
> independent community on a separate page - I've not quite thought through
> both sides of that yet properly. There definitely is something about the
> immersive experience of the community and tutorials and examples and editor
> all being in one place, that I hadn't really seen before this BBC project -
> there's a "thing" there I'm trying to form some view on, but it does feel
> very exciting when you use it.
>
> The TouchDevelop shared online library feature is a stroke of genius that I
> hadn't realised until I experienced it first hand this week - perhaps an
> option to "import" and it does a live search for community contributed
> libraries and just includes them for use like the TouchDevelop experience
> does? Just a thought. The immutable published library concept gives
> educators in particular a way to focus learners on the important learning at
> the top of the app, whilst giving them drill-down to the detail if they want
> it - I've learnt more about TouchDevelop by clicking through the library
> detail than I have by reading any documentation, to be honest.
>
> There is also that thing about teachers have spent a couple of years
> up-skilling in Python, and something new and different is coming along. It
> would be good to provide a range of directions both in and out of the
> experience for learners and teachers, so they both be attracted to it, and
> drawn onwards to the next thing, in new and interesting ways. Python could
> be as much a "draw in" to the experience, as well as a "draw out and
> onwards" to bigger systems like Raspberry Pi, for example.
>
> Still thinking, but these are my initial thoughts for now. Sorry to be less
> than helpful at this stage.
>
> David,
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
> Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex
>
> email:  dwhale at theiet.org
> twitter: @whaleygeek
> blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk
>
> Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" - lets get kids coding!
>
>
> On 7 July 2015 at 14:46, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
>> > Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
>> > public launch today.
>> >
>>
>> Great stuff! I hope it went well.
>>
>> David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
>> we're doing.
>>
>> *Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
>> and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
>> books on Minecraft and Python programming.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> N.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Microbit mailing list
>> Microbit at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul  8 10:26:19 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2015 09:26:19 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559CDEAB.50407@ntoll.org>

Hi David,

Brief comments in-line below... ;-)

On 08/07/15 08:05, David Whale wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
> 
> I'm not ignoring you lot, just been *very* busy these last few days,
> from all angles, and will be still for a week or so, sorry!
> 

No problem. I know exactly how you feel. This week I'm up to my eyes in
all sorts of "real" work.

> I'm thinking through the proposals to think what I could add to the
> already excellent comments and observations made by others. 
> 

I'm all ears! ;-)

> I think, still, I'm really drawn to the power of having a blocks like
> interface with a "show code" button that shows the python, to provide a
> smooth and natural transition for coders from a visual paradigm to a
> text paradigm - think of it as the python equivalent of the web "view
> source" where people look behind the scenes on a web page, work out how
> it works, start hacking their own html, get into a bit of javascript,
> get into a bit of php, and many get into computing that way. 
> 
> There is a subtle but important difference between a "show-code" option
> (Michael's origional blockly) and a "convert forwards only" option
> (blocks to touch develop one way conversion) - both with their own
> benefits and pitfalls and differences.
>

Totally understand. But remember, because of the whitespace rules -
Python is a sort of visual language. It's just that it's expressed via
text rather than blocks.

> 
> I also need to personally think through whether two pages of code on a
> 128/256K device ("twice the size of game of life") without the bluetooth
> connectivity, gives enough opportunity for doing useful and engaging
> things with that amount of code. I'm not sure about that one yet, to be
> honest. It seems we've burnt a large amount of code space to get a tiny
> amount of user app space. One way to frame this might be to roughly
> calculate what percentage of flash is the interpreter and runtime, and
> what percentage is user code - how does this compare to the existing
> blocks or touch develop solutions (hard to compare as code density might
> differ significantly). But if it's 95%/5%, interpreter/user app, I'm
> really not sure about that. Be nice to have a ball park figure on the
> split at present. Is that all interpreter, or is it libraries too - I''m
> guessing it's not possible to strip unused libraries due to the dynamic
> nature of python?
> 

Even without BLE the device is compelling and exciting to use via
MicroPython. As for the questions about memory and implementation
details you'll have to ask Damien (also on this list).

> 
> Could we show the python experience to a bunch of 11 year olds and a
> bunch of school teachers, perhaps, and see what they think of it - that
> is the target audience, after all?
> 

That's pretty much the first thing on my list of things to do. Having
said that, you and I both know from experience that "proper" Python is
both engaging and enojyed by kids and teachers alike. We see this every
year at PyCon UK's teachers' and kids' tracks with children as young as 7.

> 
> There's also *something* there that Michael mentioned about the
> contained experience of working inside the ecosystem of a website with
> all the interactions and sharing that happens, compared to an offline
> editor with an independent community on a separate page - I've not quite
> thought through both sides of that yet properly. There definitely is
> something about the immersive experience of the community and tutorials
> and examples and editor all being in one place, that I hadn't really
> seen before this BBC project - there's a "thing" there I'm trying to
> form some view on, but it does feel very exciting when you use it.
> 

Perhaps I gave the wrong idea... I'm not suggesting there's a Python
thing separately on the side totally separate from microbit.co.uk and
TouchDevelop.

Rather, that the Python community will need a place they "own" where
they can contribute in a space controlled by the community (this is an
important consideration for many). This space would *complement* the
microbit.co.uk offering.

Furthermore, I'd love there to be MicroPython tutorials, videos and
links to resources on the main website. In fact, I think it essential
that there is such a thing if only to avoid the dangers of a monoculture
ecosystem.

Having alternatives is a good thing. It promotes exploration and a
cosmopolitan outlook.

Let a thousand flowers bloom (and all that). ;-)

> The TouchDevelop shared online library feature is a stroke of genius
> that I hadn't realised until I experienced it first hand this week -
> perhaps an option to "import" and it does a live search for community
> contributed libraries and just includes them for use like the
> TouchDevelop experience does? Just a thought. The immutable published
> library concept gives educators in particular a way to focus learners on
> the important learning at the top of the app, whilst giving them
> drill-down to the detail if they want it - I've learnt more about
> TouchDevelop by clicking through the library detail than I have by
> reading any documentation, to be honest.
> 

Exactly. It would be daft to argue against code sharing. There are many
ways to make this work - and TouchDevelop is but one.

> There is also that thing about teachers have spent a couple of years
> up-skilling in Python, and something new and different is coming along.
> It would be good to provide a range of directions both in and out of the
> experience for learners and teachers, so they both be attracted to it,
> and drawn onwards to the next thing, in new and interesting ways. Python
> could be as much a "draw in" to the experience, as well as a "draw out
> and onwards" to bigger systems like Raspberry Pi, for example.
> 

Amen brother! Great minds think alike (or fools seldom differ). ;-)

> Still thinking, but these are my initial thoughts for now. Sorry to be
> less than helpful at this stage.
> 

These are incredibly helpful comments - keep them coming. All feedback
both positive and negative is most welcome!

Best wishes,

Nicholas.

> David,
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
> *Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex*
> 
> email:  dwhale at theiet.org <mailto:dwhale at theiet.org>
> twitter: @whaleygeek
> blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk <http://blog.whaleygeek.co.uk>
> 
> Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft"
> <http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG> - lets get kids coding!
> 
> 
> On 7 July 2015 at 14:46, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org
> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
> 
>     On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
>     > Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
>     > public launch today.
>     >
> 
>     Great stuff! I hope it went well.
> 
>     David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
>     we're doing.
> 
>     *Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
>     and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
>     books on Minecraft and Python programming.
> 
>     :-)
> 
>     N.
> 
> 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Microbit mailing list
>     Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 



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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Wed Jul  8 13:22:24 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 11:22:24 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube
In-Reply-To: <559BB556.9030502@ntoll.org>
References: <559BB556.9030502@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938A529@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi,
What's the password?

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 07 July 2015 12:18
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube

Hi Folks,

Now the BBC micro:bit cat is out of the bag I've uploaded the following
*private* YouTube videos of MicroPython running on the micro:bit.

Friday at RPi Towers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdjx0Yjexq4 - MicroPython on a BBC
micro:bit - first GPIO success via a Raspberry Pi (and you hear me get
really excited)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y_hi_usf-4 - MicroPython, Raspberry Pi
and BBC micro:bit LED disco lights in 7 lines of Python.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDdfheyRno - MicroPython / micro:bit
burglar alarm connected to a Raspberry Pi

Damien's MicroPython Demos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyzaGZFRyTI - Matrix Rain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgpbM0O05rU - Game of Life. GAME OF
LIFE!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XWChj7hFYk - Blinkenlights.

For entertainment purposes only!!!

;-)

N.



-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul  8 13:36:07 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:36:07 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938A529@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559BB556.9030502@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938A529@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <559D0B27.1040201@ntoll.org>

I've embedded the videos within the report from Monday:

http://tollervey.com/bbc
username: microbit
password: snakes

Hope this helps,

Nicholas.

On 08/07/15 12:22, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi,
> What's the password?
> 
> Howard
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
> Sent: 07 July 2015 12:18
> To: microbit at python.org
> Subject: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Now the BBC micro:bit cat is out of the bag I've uploaded the following
> *private* YouTube videos of MicroPython running on the micro:bit.
> 
> Friday at RPi Towers:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdjx0Yjexq4 - MicroPython on a BBC
> micro:bit - first GPIO success via a Raspberry Pi (and you hear me get
> really excited)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y_hi_usf-4 - MicroPython, Raspberry Pi
> and BBC micro:bit LED disco lights in 7 lines of Python.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDdfheyRno - MicroPython / micro:bit
> burglar alarm connected to a Raspberry Pi
> 
> Damien's MicroPython Demos:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyzaGZFRyTI - Matrix Rain
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgpbM0O05rU - Game of Life. GAME OF
> LIFE!!!!!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XWChj7hFYk - Blinkenlights.
> 
> For entertainment purposes only!!!
> 
> ;-)
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Wed Jul  8 13:49:10 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 11:49:10 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938A5A2@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi David,

Thanks for these thoughts and taking the time to write them down ? they are extremely useful and frame nicely the discussions I am having.

I agree with you there is something intriguing and potentially extremely useful about having Python inside the system as well as outside. My gut feeling is both teachers and children will appreciate the fact they can program the Micro:bit with Python in a supported environment with everybody else and then move onto other ways of programming with Python outside the system. To be honest, I?m also thinking about the impact of having Python offered as one of the core languages and all the support it will receive form learning resource providers.

This is of course all up for discussion, just wanted to add some pros for being inside to prompt feedback.

Thanks again for all the hard work and thinking
Howard

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of David Whale
Sent: 08 July 2015 08:06
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

Hi Nicholas,

I'm not ignoring you lot, just been *very* busy these last few days, from all angles, and will be still for a week or so, sorry!

I'm thinking through the proposals to think what I could add to the already excellent comments and observations made by others.

I think, still, I'm really drawn to the power of having a blocks like interface with a "show code" button that shows the python, to provide a smooth and natural transition for coders from a visual paradigm to a text paradigm - think of it as the python equivalent of the web "view source" where people look behind the scenes on a web page, work out how it works, start hacking their own html, get into a bit of javascript, get into a bit of php, and many get into computing that way.

There is a subtle but important difference between a "show-code" option (Michael's origional blockly) and a "convert forwards only" option (blocks to touch develop one way conversion) - both with their own benefits and pitfalls and differences.


I also need to personally think through whether two pages of code on a 128/256K device ("twice the size of game of life") without the bluetooth connectivity, gives enough opportunity for doing useful and engaging things with that amount of code. I'm not sure about that one yet, to be honest. It seems we've burnt a large amount of code space to get a tiny amount of user app space. One way to frame this might be to roughly calculate what percentage of flash is the interpreter and runtime, and what percentage is user code - how does this compare to the existing blocks or touch develop solutions (hard to compare as code density might differ significantly). But if it's 95%/5%, interpreter/user app, I'm really not sure about that. Be nice to have a ball park figure on the split at present. Is that all interpreter, or is it libraries too - I''m guessing it's not possible to strip unused libraries due to the dynamic nature of python?


Could we show the python experience to a bunch of 11 year olds and a bunch of school teachers, perhaps, and see what they think of it - that is the target audience, after all?


There's also *something* there that Michael mentioned about the contained experience of working inside the ecosystem of a website with all the interactions and sharing that happens, compared to an offline editor with an independent community on a separate page - I've not quite thought through both sides of that yet properly. There definitely is something about the immersive experience of the community and tutorials and examples and editor all being in one place, that I hadn't really seen before this BBC project - there's a "thing" there I'm trying to form some view on, but it does feel very exciting when you use it.

The TouchDevelop shared online library feature is a stroke of genius that I hadn't realised until I experienced it first hand this week - perhaps an option to "import" and it does a live search for community contributed libraries and just includes them for use like the TouchDevelop experience does? Just a thought. The immutable published library concept gives educators in particular a way to focus learners on the important learning at the top of the app, whilst giving them drill-down to the detail if they want it - I've learnt more about TouchDevelop by clicking through the library detail than I have by reading any documentation, to be honest.

There is also that thing about teachers have spent a couple of years up-skilling in Python, and something new and different is coming along. It would be good to provide a range of directions both in and out of the experience for learners and teachers, so they both be attracted to it, and drawn onwards to the next thing, in new and interesting ways. Python could be as much a "draw in" to the experience, as well as a "draw out and onwards" to bigger systems like Raspberry Pi, for example.

Still thinking, but these are my initial thoughts for now. Sorry to be less than helpful at this stage.

David,


___________________________________________________________
David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex
email:  dwhale at theiet.org<mailto:dwhale at theiet.org>
twitter: @whaleygeek
blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk<http://blog.whaleygeek.co.uk>

Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft"<http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG> - lets get kids coding!

On 7 July 2015 at 14:46, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
> Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at the
> public launch today.
>

Great stuff! I hope it went well.

David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
we're doing.

*Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
books on Minecraft and Python programming.

:-)

N.



_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit




----------------------------

http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.

---------------------
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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Wed Jul  8 14:07:17 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 12:07:17 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube
In-Reply-To: <559D0B27.1040201@ntoll.org>
References: <559BB556.9030502@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938A529@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <559D0B27.1040201@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938A5FC@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 08 July 2015 12:36
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube

I've embedded the videos within the report from Monday:

http://tollervey.com/bbc
username: microbit
password: snakes

Hope this helps,

Nicholas.

On 08/07/15 12:22, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi,
> What's the password?
> 
> Howard
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
> Sent: 07 July 2015 12:18
> To: microbit at python.org
> Subject: [Microbit-Python] Videos on YouTube
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Now the BBC micro:bit cat is out of the bag I've uploaded the following
> *private* YouTube videos of MicroPython running on the micro:bit.
> 
> Friday at RPi Towers:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdjx0Yjexq4 - MicroPython on a BBC
> micro:bit - first GPIO success via a Raspberry Pi (and you hear me get
> really excited)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y_hi_usf-4 - MicroPython, Raspberry Pi
> and BBC micro:bit LED disco lights in 7 lines of Python.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDdfheyRno - MicroPython / micro:bit
> burglar alarm connected to a Raspberry Pi
> 
> Damien's MicroPython Demos:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyzaGZFRyTI - Matrix Rain
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgpbM0O05rU - Game of Life. GAME OF
> LIFE!!!!!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XWChj7hFYk - Blinkenlights.
> 
> For entertainment purposes only!!!
> 
> ;-)
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
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> Further communication will signify your consent to
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> 



From sparks.m at gmail.com  Thu Jul  9 17:41:27 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2015 16:41:27 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>

> 4. The limitation of script size is not about flash but rather RAM.
> The script must be compiled on the device so needs a certain amount of
> RAM to hold the bytecode.

One question I've just realised is that there's 2 versions of the chip out
there - the 16K RAM and 32K RAM, and I seem to recall there possibly being
2 versions of the microbit device being about - one using 16K RAM and the
other having 32K. That leads me into some very specific questions that
spring to mind:

- How much memory has the device got that you've been testing with?

- What is the flash footprint of micropython?

- What is the RAM footprint for a trivial program?

- While the BLE doesn't work in this version for reasons we know, being
realistic is co-existence likely to be realistically possible?

- What if we baked micropython + python program into a custom download?

I know that flashing data and programs on the Cortex range of MCUs is more
granular than with arduino's but I'm not familiar with precisely how much
more granular. Can we store python source and any generated byte code in
flash, rather than RAM? Do you already? If you don't and if you could, how
much of a difference would this make?

I'm still very much in awe of the fact you've got micropython running on
the device at all incidentally, just beginning to start to think of the
practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)

Best Regards,


Michael.


On 8 July 2015 at 09:17, Damien George <damien.p.george at gmail.com> wrote:

> David, I'd just like to clarify a few points regarding MicroPython and
> its use on the micro:bit:
>
> 1. MicroPython does not aim at all to replace TouchDevelop and all the
> goodness that the existing TouchDevelop environment brings.  Instead
> MicroPython provides a different (and more traditional) way of
> programming the device and therefore gives more options to those who
> have one, and more options to teachers to decide what's the
> best/easiest way for them to teach their students.
>
> 2. If Python is to run on the device then MicroPython is the easiest
> way to make this happen.  The report by Nicholas points out that it's
> going to be very hard to put a Python-like front end on the
> TouchDevelop system.
>
> 3. A lot of the niceties that you bring up about the TouchDevelop
> environment could also be implemented on top of the MicroPython
> paradigm (eg online sharing of code, libraries).  Now that we know
> that the core technology works (ie MicroPython runs), if we get the
> approval from the BBC that this is the way to go then we can get to
> work making the MicroPython+micro:bit ecosystem as easy and enjoyable
> as possible to use.
>
> 4. The limitation of script size is not about flash but rather RAM.
> The script must be compiled on the device so needs a certain amount of
> RAM to hold the bytecode.  Hence the limitation.  An alternative would
> be to compile to bytecode off the device (eg in the cloud) and run the
> bytecode from flash.  Then you would be allowed to write very large
> scripts.  But this means you are relying on internet connectivity and
> an online service.  As per point 1 above, MicroPython tries to bring
> something different to the table in terms of no reliance on the web
> (among other things), and I think it's good to keep this property.
> Also note that with BLE enabled the traditional solutions
> (TouchDevelop, mbed) don't get much RAM/flash to play with and the
> programs you can write are going to be limited.
>
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:05 AM, David Whale <david at thinkingbinaries.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Nicholas,
> >
> > I'm not ignoring you lot, just been *very* busy these last few days, from
> > all angles, and will be still for a week or so, sorry!
> >
> > I'm thinking through the proposals to think what I could add to the
> already
> > excellent comments and observations made by others.
> >
> > I think, still, I'm really drawn to the power of having a blocks like
> > interface with a "show code" button that shows the python, to provide a
> > smooth and natural transition for coders from a visual paradigm to a text
> > paradigm - think of it as the python equivalent of the web "view source"
> > where people look behind the scenes on a web page, work out how it works,
> > start hacking their own html, get into a bit of javascript, get into a
> bit
> > of php, and many get into computing that way.
> >
> > There is a subtle but important difference between a "show-code" option
> > (Michael's origional blockly) and a "convert forwards only" option
> (blocks
> > to touch develop one way conversion) - both with their own benefits and
> > pitfalls and differences.
> >
> >
> > I also need to personally think through whether two pages of code on a
> > 128/256K device ("twice the size of game of life") without the bluetooth
> > connectivity, gives enough opportunity for doing useful and engaging
> things
> > with that amount of code. I'm not sure about that one yet, to be honest.
> It
> > seems we've burnt a large amount of code space to get a tiny amount of
> user
> > app space. One way to frame this might be to roughly calculate what
> > percentage of flash is the interpreter and runtime, and what percentage
> is
> > user code - how does this compare to the existing blocks or touch develop
> > solutions (hard to compare as code density might differ significantly).
> But
> > if it's 95%/5%, interpreter/user app, I'm really not sure about that. Be
> > nice to have a ball park figure on the split at present. Is that all
> > interpreter, or is it libraries too - I''m guessing it's not possible to
> > strip unused libraries due to the dynamic nature of python?
> >
> >
> > Could we show the python experience to a bunch of 11 year olds and a
> bunch
> > of school teachers, perhaps, and see what they think of it - that is the
> > target audience, after all?
> >
> >
> > There's also *something* there that Michael mentioned about the contained
> > experience of working inside the ecosystem of a website with all the
> > interactions and sharing that happens, compared to an offline editor
> with an
> > independent community on a separate page - I've not quite thought through
> > both sides of that yet properly. There definitely is something about the
> > immersive experience of the community and tutorials and examples and
> editor
> > all being in one place, that I hadn't really seen before this BBC
> project -
> > there's a "thing" there I'm trying to form some view on, but it does feel
> > very exciting when you use it.
> >
> > The TouchDevelop shared online library feature is a stroke of genius
> that I
> > hadn't realised until I experienced it first hand this week - perhaps an
> > option to "import" and it does a live search for community contributed
> > libraries and just includes them for use like the TouchDevelop experience
> > does? Just a thought. The immutable published library concept gives
> > educators in particular a way to focus learners on the important
> learning at
> > the top of the app, whilst giving them drill-down to the detail if they
> want
> > it - I've learnt more about TouchDevelop by clicking through the library
> > detail than I have by reading any documentation, to be honest.
> >
> > There is also that thing about teachers have spent a couple of years
> > up-skilling in Python, and something new and different is coming along.
> It
> > would be good to provide a range of directions both in and out of the
> > experience for learners and teachers, so they both be attracted to it,
> and
> > drawn onwards to the next thing, in new and interesting ways. Python
> could
> > be as much a "draw in" to the experience, as well as a "draw out and
> > onwards" to bigger systems like Raspberry Pi, for example.
> >
> > Still thinking, but these are my initial thoughts for now. Sorry to be
> less
> > than helpful at this stage.
> >
> > David,
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
> > Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex
> >
> > email:  dwhale at theiet.org
> > twitter: @whaleygeek
> > blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk
> >
> > Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" - lets get kids
> coding!
> >
> >
> > On 7 July 2015 at 14:46, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
> >> > Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o brien at
> the
> >> > public launch today.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Great stuff! I hope it went well.
> >>
> >> David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python work
> >> we're doing.
> >>
> >> *Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of Engineering
> >> and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes awesome
> >> books on Minecraft and Python programming.
> >>
> >> :-)
> >>
> >> N.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Microbit mailing list
> >> Microbit at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Microbit mailing list
> > Microbit at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul  9 19:54:51 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2015 18:54:51 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559EB56B.30507@ntoll.org>

Hi Michael,

This is a quote from an email from Damien in a discussion about BLE on
the micro:bit. I'm pretty certain he's on the 16k version.

"There is 16k RAM.  8k is for the BLE, plus 2k to
communicate with the BLE, leaving 6k for user apps.  At the moment
(with the MicroBit driver) that 6k is pretty much completely used up
(it's split into 4k data and 2k stack).  So there is no room at all
for MicroPython with the existing BLE+MicroBit drivers."

If there's to be a 32k version I guess BLE could be on the table.

Michael, this is the first I've heard of the 32k version. Is that how
much RAM will be on the device delivered to kids??? If so, where can we
get the hardware?

N.

On 09/07/15 16:41, Michael wrote:
>> 4. The limitation of script size is not about flash but rather RAM.
>> The script must be compiled on the device so needs a certain amount of
>> RAM to hold the bytecode.  
> 
> One question I've just realised is that there's 2 versions of the chip
> out there - the 16K RAM and 32K RAM, and I seem to recall there possibly
> being 2 versions of the microbit device being about - one using 16K RAM
> and the other having 32K. That leads me into some very specific
> questions that spring to mind:
> 
> - How much memory has the device got that you've been testing with?
> 
> - What is the flash footprint of micropython?
> 
> - What is the RAM footprint for a trivial program?
> 
> - While the BLE doesn't work in this version for reasons we know, being
> realistic is co-existence likely to be realistically possible?
> 
> - What if we baked micropython + python program into a custom download?
> 
> I know that flashing data and programs on the Cortex range of MCUs is
> more granular than with arduino's but I'm not familiar with precisely
> how much more granular. Can we store python source and any generated
> byte code in flash, rather than RAM? Do you already? If you don't and if
> you could, how much of a difference would this make?
> 
> I'm still very much in awe of the fact you've got micropython running on
> the device at all incidentally, just beginning to start to think of the
> practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael.
> 
> 
> On 8 July 2015 at 09:17, Damien George <damien.p.george at gmail.com
> <mailto:damien.p.george at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     David, I'd just like to clarify a few points regarding MicroPython and
>     its use on the micro:bit:
> 
>     1. MicroPython does not aim at all to replace TouchDevelop and all the
>     goodness that the existing TouchDevelop environment brings.  Instead
>     MicroPython provides a different (and more traditional) way of
>     programming the device and therefore gives more options to those who
>     have one, and more options to teachers to decide what's the
>     best/easiest way for them to teach their students.
> 
>     2. If Python is to run on the device then MicroPython is the easiest
>     way to make this happen.  The report by Nicholas points out that it's
>     going to be very hard to put a Python-like front end on the
>     TouchDevelop system.
> 
>     3. A lot of the niceties that you bring up about the TouchDevelop
>     environment could also be implemented on top of the MicroPython
>     paradigm (eg online sharing of code, libraries).  Now that we know
>     that the core technology works (ie MicroPython runs), if we get the
>     approval from the BBC that this is the way to go then we can get to
>     work making the MicroPython+micro:bit ecosystem as easy and enjoyable
>     as possible to use.
> 
>     4. The limitation of script size is not about flash but rather RAM.
>     The script must be compiled on the device so needs a certain amount of
>     RAM to hold the bytecode.  Hence the limitation.  An alternative would
>     be to compile to bytecode off the device (eg in the cloud) and run the
>     bytecode from flash.  Then you would be allowed to write very large
>     scripts.  But this means you are relying on internet connectivity and
>     an online service.  As per point 1 above, MicroPython tries to bring
>     something different to the table in terms of no reliance on the web
>     (among other things), and I think it's good to keep this property.
>     Also note that with BLE enabled the traditional solutions
>     (TouchDevelop, mbed) don't get much RAM/flash to play with and the
>     programs you can write are going to be limited.
> 
>     Cheers,
>     Damien.
> 
> 
>     On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:05 AM, David Whale
>     <david at thinkingbinaries.com <mailto:david at thinkingbinaries.com>> wrote:
>     > Hi Nicholas,
>     >
>     > I'm not ignoring you lot, just been *very* busy these last few
>     days, from
>     > all angles, and will be still for a week or so, sorry!
>     >
>     > I'm thinking through the proposals to think what I could add to
>     the already
>     > excellent comments and observations made by others.
>     >
>     > I think, still, I'm really drawn to the power of having a blocks like
>     > interface with a "show code" button that shows the python, to
>     provide a
>     > smooth and natural transition for coders from a visual paradigm to
>     a text
>     > paradigm - think of it as the python equivalent of the web "view
>     source"
>     > where people look behind the scenes on a web page, work out how it
>     works,
>     > start hacking their own html, get into a bit of javascript, get
>     into a bit
>     > of php, and many get into computing that way.
>     >
>     > There is a subtle but important difference between a "show-code"
>     option
>     > (Michael's origional blockly) and a "convert forwards only" option
>     (blocks
>     > to touch develop one way conversion) - both with their own
>     benefits and
>     > pitfalls and differences.
>     >
>     >
>     > I also need to personally think through whether two pages of code on a
>     > 128/256K device ("twice the size of game of life") without the
>     bluetooth
>     > connectivity, gives enough opportunity for doing useful and
>     engaging things
>     > with that amount of code. I'm not sure about that one yet, to be
>     honest. It
>     > seems we've burnt a large amount of code space to get a tiny
>     amount of user
>     > app space. One way to frame this might be to roughly calculate what
>     > percentage of flash is the interpreter and runtime, and what
>     percentage is
>     > user code - how does this compare to the existing blocks or touch
>     develop
>     > solutions (hard to compare as code density might differ
>     significantly). But
>     > if it's 95%/5%, interpreter/user app, I'm really not sure about
>     that. Be
>     > nice to have a ball park figure on the split at present. Is that all
>     > interpreter, or is it libraries too - I''m guessing it's not
>     possible to
>     > strip unused libraries due to the dynamic nature of python?
>     >
>     >
>     > Could we show the python experience to a bunch of 11 year olds and
>     a bunch
>     > of school teachers, perhaps, and see what they think of it - that
>     is the
>     > target audience, after all?
>     >
>     >
>     > There's also *something* there that Michael mentioned about the
>     contained
>     > experience of working inside the ecosystem of a website with all the
>     > interactions and sharing that happens, compared to an offline
>     editor with an
>     > independent community on a separate page - I've not quite thought
>     through
>     > both sides of that yet properly. There definitely is something
>     about the
>     > immersive experience of the community and tutorials and examples
>     and editor
>     > all being in one place, that I hadn't really seen before this BBC
>     project -
>     > there's a "thing" there I'm trying to form some view on, but it
>     does feel
>     > very exciting when you use it.
>     >
>     > The TouchDevelop shared online library feature is a stroke of
>     genius that I
>     > hadn't realised until I experienced it first hand this week -
>     perhaps an
>     > option to "import" and it does a live search for community contributed
>     > libraries and just includes them for use like the TouchDevelop
>     experience
>     > does? Just a thought. The immutable published library concept gives
>     > educators in particular a way to focus learners on the important
>     learning at
>     > the top of the app, whilst giving them drill-down to the detail if
>     they want
>     > it - I've learnt more about TouchDevelop by clicking through the
>     library
>     > detail than I have by reading any documentation, to be honest.
>     >
>     > There is also that thing about teachers have spent a couple of years
>     > up-skilling in Python, and something new and different is coming
>     along. It
>     > would be good to provide a range of directions both in and out of the
>     > experience for learners and teachers, so they both be attracted to
>     it, and
>     > drawn onwards to the next thing, in new and interesting ways.
>     Python could
>     > be as much a "draw in" to the experience, as well as a "draw out and
>     > onwards" to bigger systems like Raspberry Pi, for example.
>     >
>     > Still thinking, but these are my initial thoughts for now. Sorry
>     to be less
>     > than helpful at this stage.
>     >
>     > David,
>     >
>     >
>     > ___________________________________________________________
>     > David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
>     > Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex
>     >
>     > email:  dwhale at theiet.org <mailto:dwhale at theiet.org>
>     > twitter: @whaleygeek
>     > blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk <http://blog.whaleygeek.co.uk>
>     >
>     > Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" - lets get
>     kids coding!
>     >
>     >
>     > On 7 July 2015 at 14:46, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org
>     <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> On 07/07/15 14:20, David Whale wrote:
>     >> > Tony hall mentioned python several times and so did dara o
>     brien at the
>     >> > public launch today.
>     >> >
>     >>
>     >> Great stuff! I hope it went well.
>     >>
>     >> David, would be interesting to get your perspective on the Python
>     work
>     >> we're doing.
>     >>
>     >> *Everyone* - David is the point man for the Institution of
>     Engineering
>     >> and Technology (who are also a BBC partner). David also writes
>     awesome
>     >> books on Minecraft and Python programming.
>     >>
>     >> :-)
>     >>
>     >> N.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> Microbit mailing list
>     >> Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
>     >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>     >>
>     >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Microbit mailing list
>     > Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
>     > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     Microbit mailing list
>     Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Fri Jul 10 00:05:19 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2015 23:05:19 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <559EB56B.30507@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <559EB56B.30507@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVAs_jpNNigRLOvHY7K1A87JUnZbD9tUPfpukOSKO7BUBA@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 July 2015 at 18:54, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> This is a quote from an email from Damien in a discussion about BLE on
> the micro:bit. I'm pretty certain he's on the 16k version.
>
> "There is 16k RAM.  8k is for the BLE, plus 2k to
> communicate with the BLE, leaving 6k for user apps.  At the moment
> (with the MicroBit driver) that 6k is pretty much completely used up
> (it's split into 4k data and 2k stack).  So there is no room at all
> for MicroPython with the existing BLE+MicroBit drivers."
>
> If there's to be a 32k version I guess BLE could be on the table.
>
> Michael, this is the first I've heard of the 32k version. Is that how
> much RAM will be on the device delivered to kids??? If so, where can we
> get the hardware?


The production version is definitely 16K.

It's just that there's a few photos kicking about of a chip with a
serial number that if you look at the data sheet is 32K. Probably
from an earlier iteration *OR* from me reading the datasheet
wrong, maybe :)

I just worried for a bit that the devices Damien was testing with
were 32K not 16K. Since this is  all based on 16K that's really good
to know.

The specific numbers above I'll chew on.

Many thanks,


Michael.
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From damien.p.george at gmail.com  Fri Jul 10 14:13:22 2015
From: damien.p.george at gmail.com (Damien George)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 13:13:22 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>

Michael,

> One question I've just realised is that there's 2 versions of the chip out
> there - the 16K RAM and 32K RAM, and I seem to recall there possibly being 2
> versions of the microbit device being about - one using 16K RAM and the
> other having 32K. That leads me into some very specific questions that
> spring to mind:
>
> - How much memory has the device got that you've been testing with?

It may have 32k RAM (I haven't checked) but the linker script is set
to 16k and that's all I'm using.  So nothing to worry about!

> - What is the flash footprint of micropython?

It depends how many Python features you want enabled.  There was
enough room that I could enable most of the features.

With minimum features (which is still a lot, still generators,
classes, lists, dics, ...) MicroPython on its own is about 71k of code
space.

With maximum features MicroPython is about 160k (increase mostly due
to floating point and complex numbers).

Plus there is code for the mbed hal, plus the "microbit" module to
access pins, accelerometer, etc.

In all, the current binary total size is 135k, which includes mbed
HAL, and most MicroPython features (floating point but no complex
numbers, arbitrary precision integers, interface to display, accel,
compass, buttons, IO pins).

That can be reduced to 113k by removing floating point and arbitrary
precition integers and some rarely used features (like property,
memoryview).

> - What is the RAM footprint for a trivial program?

About 400 bytes of global state in the bss, less than 1k stack, about
1.3k of heap, plus some RAM for the uart buffer.  Maybe 3k in total
(stack incl).

> - While the BLE doesn't work in this version for reasons we know, being
> realistic is co-existence likely to be realistically possible?

You mean having BLE code in the flash along with MicroPython, and
switching between the 2 at runtime?  Probably doable.

> - What if we baked micropython + python program into a custom download?

Could do, but the compilation still needs to be done on the device,
which requires RAM for the parse tree and RAM for the generated
bytecode.

> I know that flashing data and programs on the Cortex range of MCUs is more
> granular than with arduino's but I'm not familiar with precisely how much
> more granular. Can we store python source and any generated byte code in
> flash, rather than RAM?

Yes, I think this is possible.  If the device can flash itself then we
can even use the spare flash to store generated bytecode on the fly.

> Do you already?

No, at the moment the MicroPython runtime is static, and all scripts
are dynamic and in RAM.

> If you don't and if you could, how
> much of a difference would this make?

If we could use flash to store the script (but not the bytecode) then
it helps somewhat.

If we could use flash to store bytecode then it helps a lot and
program size could be very large.  You can either compile on device
and use the flash as some sort of temp storage (device must be able to
flash itself), or just compile offline and produce a .hex file with
bytecode in it.

Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
year.  The good thing about MicroPython compiling scripts to RAM is
that you only need to rewrite the flash when you want to upgrade
(which happens maybe once a month).

These topics are very good topics for PSF funded bounties :)

> I'm still very much in awe of the fact you've got micropython running on the
> device at all incidentally

:)  it was fun, and not actually the smallest device I've put it on
(it runs on a 16-bit microchip device).

> just beginning to start to think of the
> practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)

As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
think about user experience, and make it very usable.

Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.

Cheers,
Damien.

From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Fri Jul 10 14:45:00 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 12:45:00 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BC0A@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi Damien,

Thanks for all the info. Really good to know the detail. I've added Joe Finney, who will be fascinated by all this, and also thinks the chip can flash itself. He is inevestigating it so may be worth chetting about the possibilities if it can flash.

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Damien George
Sent: 10 July 2015 13:13
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

Michael,

> One question I've just realised is that there's 2 versions of the chip out
> there - the 16K RAM and 32K RAM, and I seem to recall there possibly being 2
> versions of the microbit device being about - one using 16K RAM and the
> other having 32K. That leads me into some very specific questions that
> spring to mind:
>
> - How much memory has the device got that you've been testing with?

It may have 32k RAM (I haven't checked) but the linker script is set
to 16k and that's all I'm using.  So nothing to worry about!

> - What is the flash footprint of micropython?

It depends how many Python features you want enabled.  There was
enough room that I could enable most of the features.

With minimum features (which is still a lot, still generators,
classes, lists, dics, ...) MicroPython on its own is about 71k of code
space.

With maximum features MicroPython is about 160k (increase mostly due
to floating point and complex numbers).

Plus there is code for the mbed hal, plus the "microbit" module to
access pins, accelerometer, etc.

In all, the current binary total size is 135k, which includes mbed
HAL, and most MicroPython features (floating point but no complex
numbers, arbitrary precision integers, interface to display, accel,
compass, buttons, IO pins).

That can be reduced to 113k by removing floating point and arbitrary
precition integers and some rarely used features (like property,
memoryview).

> - What is the RAM footprint for a trivial program?

About 400 bytes of global state in the bss, less than 1k stack, about
1.3k of heap, plus some RAM for the uart buffer.  Maybe 3k in total
(stack incl).

> - While the BLE doesn't work in this version for reasons we know, being
> realistic is co-existence likely to be realistically possible?

You mean having BLE code in the flash along with MicroPython, and
switching between the 2 at runtime?  Probably doable.

> - What if we baked micropython + python program into a custom download?

Could do, but the compilation still needs to be done on the device,
which requires RAM for the parse tree and RAM for the generated
bytecode.

> I know that flashing data and programs on the Cortex range of MCUs is more
> granular than with arduino's but I'm not familiar with precisely how much
> more granular. Can we store python source and any generated byte code in
> flash, rather than RAM?

Yes, I think this is possible.  If the device can flash itself then we
can even use the spare flash to store generated bytecode on the fly.

> Do you already?

No, at the moment the MicroPython runtime is static, and all scripts
are dynamic and in RAM.

> If you don't and if you could, how
> much of a difference would this make?

If we could use flash to store the script (but not the bytecode) then
it helps somewhat.

If we could use flash to store bytecode then it helps a lot and
program size could be very large.  You can either compile on device
and use the flash as some sort of temp storage (device must be able to
flash itself), or just compile offline and produce a .hex file with
bytecode in it.

Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
year.  The good thing about MicroPython compiling scripts to RAM is
that you only need to rewrite the flash when you want to upgrade
(which happens maybe once a month).

These topics are very good topics for PSF funded bounties :)

> I'm still very much in awe of the fact you've got micropython running on the
> device at all incidentally

:)  it was fun, and not actually the smallest device I've put it on
(it runs on a 16-bit microchip device).

> just beginning to start to think of the
> practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)

As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
think about user experience, and make it very usable.

Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.

Cheers,
Damien.
_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

From sparks.m at gmail.com  Fri Jul 10 16:47:32 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 15:47:32 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Damien,


[Massive snip]

That's really useful - and really interesting to read. I think you can guess
that the pain points are where I thought they might be based on the
questions, but it's really interesting data.

I think two questions arise generally, and this is pretty much a major long
shot.

Two things that the device has in the non-python environments:

1) - is the ability to reflash the device over the air
2) - the ability to use bluetooth from user programs.

(Both of these are as I understand it - my technical involvement
technically ceased
with the end of the schools' trial using the prototype device/software
stack, and after
delivery of detailed baseline reference tech specs.)

My impression from your comments is that we can probably retain the former.

My impression is that the latter would be ... tricky - at best.

Assuming these two impressions are right, that in itself makes me wonder,
and I'm
thinking of a slightly odd option.

For powersaving on the prototype device, we had a 2032 battery which would
have
its effective voltage drop over time from often just over 3V to below
2.6/2.7V dependent
on current draw (the 32u4's brown out voltage), etc. In the end the power
saving solution
we used was to a) only have 1 LED lit at a time, rapidly cyle through the
display in a raster
fashion, and then b) put the entire device to sleep for a microscopic time
period, on a
watchdog timer, then wake the whole device up, run for a bit, then go back
to sleep.

The reason I mention this is for a possibly bonkers option for item 2. In
this case, rather
than our constraint being power, our constraint is RAM. As I say, it is a
bit bonkers (since
it might cause issues for the flash), but would it be possible to save
micropython state
periodically to flash, activate the bluetooth, check for activity,
deactivate, and then
continue.

That or possibly treat the Freescale chip as a co-processor? Run a minimal
DAL on the
Nordic, but run micropython on the freescale? (This is partly inspired by
the tricks people
used to do with things like the C64 disk drives to use the 6502 CPUs in
those as
coprocessors on the system.

(That's a rather big if... and trying to find the right version of the
Kinetis MKL26 datasheet
at the moment.)

I guess what I'm a bit worried about is whether the lack of BLE will make
the python version
be viewed as less awesome than it is, and I'm just pondering possible
options.

As a personal position, I personally really want to go down this route
because I think as well
as awesome and clever, I think it's a neat and tidy solution, and without
BLE to confuse the
issue I don't think there would be any questions at all. As a result that's
why I'm exploring the
edges and just looking to see what is in the art of the possible, rather
than pre-requisites.

It won't ultimately be my decision at the end of the day though.

Regarding the specific guestimate:

> Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
> an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
> number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
> year.

If it's helpful, the prototype system stored user programs in a git-like
fashion.

That is each save created a version on the server pointing back to the
earlier
version, and the "program" pointed at the most recent version.

That means we could get data on how many times a program was editted before
being viewed as "done" by a child.

Note: I must admit I think reflashing constantly is a bad idea - and my
suggestion
above of treating flash effectively as swap, for obvious reasons, and I
suspect I'm
not alone there -- but just looking at options really.


> > just beginning to start to think of the
> > practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)
>
> As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
> think about user experience, and make it very usable.
>
> Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.
>

Absolutely, just trying to check how this compares to the other dev
platforms - what
you gain is clear, the concern is just what might you lose, and what
*could* be done
to mitigate that.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback,

Best Regards,



Michael.
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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Fri Jul 10 21:46:29 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 19:46:29 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BE88@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi,
Nice thoughts. Interestingly a little while back I suggested to Jonny Austin at ARM we use the Freescale chip to help with the BLE issue. He was very against it for reasons I couldn?t quite understand. However, if it is accessible it is a tantalising option.

Thanks for all this. A lot of food for thought.

Howard

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: 10 July 2015 15:48
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions; j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

Hi Damien,


[Massive snip]

That's really useful - and really interesting to read. I think you can guess
that the pain points are where I thought they might be based on the
questions, but it's really interesting data.

I think two questions arise generally, and this is pretty much a major long shot.

Two things that the device has in the non-python environments:

1) - is the ability to reflash the device over the air
2) - the ability to use bluetooth from user programs.

(Both of these are as I understand it - my technical involvement technically ceased
with the end of the schools' trial using the prototype device/software stack, and after
delivery of detailed baseline reference tech specs.)

My impression from your comments is that we can probably retain the former.

My impression is that the latter would be ... tricky - at best.

Assuming these two impressions are right, that in itself makes me wonder, and I'm
thinking of a slightly odd option.

For powersaving on the prototype device, we had a 2032 battery which would have
its effective voltage drop over time from often just over 3V to below 2.6/2.7V dependent
on current draw (the 32u4's brown out voltage), etc. In the end the power saving solution
we used was to a) only have 1 LED lit at a time, rapidly cyle through the display in a raster
fashion, and then b) put the entire device to sleep for a microscopic time period, on a
watchdog timer, then wake the whole device up, run for a bit, then go back to sleep.

The reason I mention this is for a possibly bonkers option for item 2. In this case, rather
than our constraint being power, our constraint is RAM. As I say, it is a bit bonkers (since
it might cause issues for the flash), but would it be possible to save micropython state
periodically to flash, activate the bluetooth, check for activity, deactivate, and then
continue.

That or possibly treat the Freescale chip as a co-processor? Run a minimal DAL on the
Nordic, but run micropython on the freescale? (This is partly inspired by the tricks people
used to do with things like the C64 disk drives to use the 6502 CPUs in those as
coprocessors on the system.

(That's a rather big if... and trying to find the right version of the Kinetis MKL26 datasheet
at the moment.)

I guess what I'm a bit worried about is whether the lack of BLE will make the python version
be viewed as less awesome than it is, and I'm just pondering possible options.

As a personal position, I personally really want to go down this route because I think as well
as awesome and clever, I think it's a neat and tidy solution, and without BLE to confuse the
issue I don't think there would be any questions at all. As a result that's why I'm exploring the
edges and just looking to see what is in the art of the possible, rather than pre-requisites.

It won't ultimately be my decision at the end of the day though.

Regarding the specific guestimate:

> Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
> an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
> number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
> year.

If it's helpful, the prototype system stored user programs in a git-like fashion.

That is each save created a version on the server pointing back to the earlier
version, and the "program" pointed at the most recent version.

That means we could get data on how many times a program was editted before
being viewed as "done" by a child.

Note: I must admit I think reflashing constantly is a bad idea - and my suggestion
above of treating flash effectively as swap, for obvious reasons, and I suspect I'm
not alone there -- but just looking at options really.

> just beginning to start to think of the
> practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)

As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
think about user experience, and make it very usable.

Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.

Absolutely, just trying to check how this compares to the other dev platforms - what
you gain is clear, the concern is just what might you lose, and what *could* be done
to mitigate that.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback,

Best Regards,



Michael.





----------------------------

http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Fri Jul 10 21:58:38 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 19:58:38 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVAs_jpNNigRLOvHY7K1A87JUnZbD9tUPfpukOSKO7BUBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <559EB56B.30507@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVAs_jpNNigRLOvHY7K1A87JUnZbD9tUPfpukOSKO7BUBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BEBC@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

The kids will be getting the 16K version.

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: 09 July 2015 23:05
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

On 9 July 2015 at 18:54, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
Hi Michael,

This is a quote from an email from Damien in a discussion about BLE on
the micro:bit. I'm pretty certain he's on the 16k version.

"There is 16k RAM.  8k is for the BLE, plus 2k to
communicate with the BLE, leaving 6k for user apps.  At the moment
(with the MicroBit driver) that 6k is pretty much completely used up
(it's split into 4k data and 2k stack).  So there is no room at all
for MicroPython with the existing BLE+MicroBit drivers."

If there's to be a 32k version I guess BLE could be on the table.

Michael, this is the first I've heard of the 32k version. Is that how
much RAM will be on the device delivered to kids??? If so, where can we
get the hardware?

The production version is definitely 16K.

It's just that there's a few photos kicking about of a chip with a
serial number that if you look at the data sheet is 32K. Probably
from an earlier iteration *OR* from me reading the datasheet
wrong, maybe :)

I just worried for a bit that the devices Damien was testing with
were 32K not 16K. Since this is  all based on 16K that's really good
to know.

The specific numbers above I'll chew on.

Many thanks,


Michael.






----------------------------

http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Fri Jul 10 22:53:07 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:53:07 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABeH_SvtQx5Qa3UmNLKsEi8ACvmM2EdnRycYK2bMp-Pc8D5JoQ@mail.gmail.com>

I understand from talking to the Bluetooth SIGS guy that  Nordic have a
standard FOTA in their chip that they just used, making (1) easy. (2)
depends on what BLE Profile is compiled in (capabilities etc).

Also, for info, The BLE stack apparently has a regular service tick that
steals CPU time every so often. The upshot is, apparently, with the
Bluetooth enabled, the pwm glitches,making tone generation unreliable if
BLE is in use. Seems odd to me. This would imply softpwm in use rather than
an on chip hardware pwm through a timer peripheral.

If the flash supports self write, could micropython compile to bytecode and
then self write to another flash page beyond the interpreter, releasing the
RAM requirement a bit?

I think if you deactivate the BLE stack on intervals you'll probably loose
device discovery.

D.

Sent from my new HTC
On Jul 10, 2015 3:47 PM, "Michael" <sparks.m at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Damien,
>
>
> [Massive snip]
>
> That's really useful - and really interesting to read. I think you can
> guess
> that the pain points are where I thought they might be based on the
> questions, but it's really interesting data.
>
> I think two questions arise generally, and this is pretty much a major
> long shot.
>
> Two things that the device has in the non-python environments:
>
> 1) - is the ability to reflash the device over the air
> 2) - the ability to use bluetooth from user programs.
>
> (Both of these are as I understand it - my technical involvement
> technically ceased
> with the end of the schools' trial using the prototype device/software
> stack, and after
> delivery of detailed baseline reference tech specs.)
>
> My impression from your comments is that we can probably retain the former.
>
> My impression is that the latter would be ... tricky - at best.
>
> Assuming these two impressions are right, that in itself makes me wonder,
> and I'm
> thinking of a slightly odd option.
>
> For powersaving on the prototype device, we had a 2032 battery which would
> have
> its effective voltage drop over time from often just over 3V to below
> 2.6/2.7V dependent
> on current draw (the 32u4's brown out voltage), etc. In the end the power
> saving solution
> we used was to a) only have 1 LED lit at a time, rapidly cyle through the
> display in a raster
> fashion, and then b) put the entire device to sleep for a microscopic time
> period, on a
> watchdog timer, then wake the whole device up, run for a bit, then go back
> to sleep.
>
> The reason I mention this is for a possibly bonkers option for item 2. In
> this case, rather
> than our constraint being power, our constraint is RAM. As I say, it is a
> bit bonkers (since
> it might cause issues for the flash), but would it be possible to save
> micropython state
> periodically to flash, activate the bluetooth, check for activity,
> deactivate, and then
> continue.
>
> That or possibly treat the Freescale chip as a co-processor? Run a minimal
> DAL on the
> Nordic, but run micropython on the freescale? (This is partly inspired by
> the tricks people
> used to do with things like the C64 disk drives to use the 6502 CPUs in
> those as
> coprocessors on the system.
>
> (That's a rather big if... and trying to find the right version of the
> Kinetis MKL26 datasheet
> at the moment.)
>
> I guess what I'm a bit worried about is whether the lack of BLE will make
> the python version
> be viewed as less awesome than it is, and I'm just pondering possible
> options.
>
> As a personal position, I personally really want to go down this route
> because I think as well
> as awesome and clever, I think it's a neat and tidy solution, and without
> BLE to confuse the
> issue I don't think there would be any questions at all. As a result
> that's why I'm exploring the
> edges and just looking to see what is in the art of the possible, rather
> than pre-requisites.
>
> It won't ultimately be my decision at the end of the day though.
>
> Regarding the specific guestimate:
>
> > Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
> > an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
> > number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
> > year.
>
> If it's helpful, the prototype system stored user programs in a git-like
> fashion.
>
> That is each save created a version on the server pointing back to the
> earlier
> version, and the "program" pointed at the most recent version.
>
> That means we could get data on how many times a program was editted before
> being viewed as "done" by a child.
>
> Note: I must admit I think reflashing constantly is a bad idea - and my
> suggestion
> above of treating flash effectively as swap, for obvious reasons, and I
> suspect I'm
> not alone there -- but just looking at options really.
>
>
>> > just beginning to start to think of the
>> > practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)
>>
>> As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
>> think about user experience, and make it very usable.
>>
>> Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.
>>
>
> Absolutely, just trying to check how this compares to the other dev
> platforms - what
> you gain is clear, the concern is just what might you lose, and what
> *could* be done
> to mitigate that.
>
> Many thanks for the detailed feedback,
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Michael.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Sat Jul 11 20:42:18 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2015 18:42:18 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_SvtQx5Qa3UmNLKsEi8ACvmM2EdnRycYK2bMp-Pc8D5JoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABeH_SvtQx5Qa3UmNLKsEi8ACvmM2EdnRycYK2bMp-Pc8D5JoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BFF1@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi,
Yep, as far as I understand this is all correct. I?ve recently found out about the Flash self-write; I?m hoping this offers some useful pressure releases plus the ability to store non-volatile data collected by the device.

Howard

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of David Whale
Sent: 10 July 2015 21:53
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media


I understand from talking to the Bluetooth SIGS guy that  Nordic have a standard FOTA in their chip that they just used, making (1) easy. (2) depends on what BLE Profile is compiled in (capabilities etc).

Also, for info, The BLE stack apparently has a regular service tick that steals CPU time every so often. The upshot is, apparently, with the Bluetooth enabled, the pwm glitches,making tone generation unreliable if BLE is in use. Seems odd to me. This would imply softpwm in use rather than an on chip hardware pwm through a timer peripheral.

If the flash supports self write, could micropython compile to bytecode and then self write to another flash page beyond the interpreter, releasing the RAM requirement a bit?

I think if you deactivate the BLE stack on intervals you'll probably loose device discovery.

D.

Sent from my new HTC
On Jul 10, 2015 3:47 PM, "Michael" <sparks.m at gmail.com<mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Damien,


[Massive snip]

That's really useful - and really interesting to read. I think you can guess
that the pain points are where I thought they might be based on the
questions, but it's really interesting data.

I think two questions arise generally, and this is pretty much a major long shot.

Two things that the device has in the non-python environments:

1) - is the ability to reflash the device over the air
2) - the ability to use bluetooth from user programs.

(Both of these are as I understand it - my technical involvement technically ceased
with the end of the schools' trial using the prototype device/software stack, and after
delivery of detailed baseline reference tech specs.)

My impression from your comments is that we can probably retain the former.

My impression is that the latter would be ... tricky - at best.

Assuming these two impressions are right, that in itself makes me wonder, and I'm
thinking of a slightly odd option.

For powersaving on the prototype device, we had a 2032 battery which would have
its effective voltage drop over time from often just over 3V to below 2.6/2.7V dependent
on current draw (the 32u4's brown out voltage), etc. In the end the power saving solution
we used was to a) only have 1 LED lit at a time, rapidly cyle through the display in a raster
fashion, and then b) put the entire device to sleep for a microscopic time period, on a
watchdog timer, then wake the whole device up, run for a bit, then go back to sleep.

The reason I mention this is for a possibly bonkers option for item 2. In this case, rather
than our constraint being power, our constraint is RAM. As I say, it is a bit bonkers (since
it might cause issues for the flash), but would it be possible to save micropython state
periodically to flash, activate the bluetooth, check for activity, deactivate, and then
continue.

That or possibly treat the Freescale chip as a co-processor? Run a minimal DAL on the
Nordic, but run micropython on the freescale? (This is partly inspired by the tricks people
used to do with things like the C64 disk drives to use the 6502 CPUs in those as
coprocessors on the system.

(That's a rather big if... and trying to find the right version of the Kinetis MKL26 datasheet
at the moment.)

I guess what I'm a bit worried about is whether the lack of BLE will make the python version
be viewed as less awesome than it is, and I'm just pondering possible options.

As a personal position, I personally really want to go down this route because I think as well
as awesome and clever, I think it's a neat and tidy solution, and without BLE to confuse the
issue I don't think there would be any questions at all. As a result that's why I'm exploring the
edges and just looking to see what is in the art of the possible, rather than pre-requisites.

It won't ultimately be my decision at the end of the day though.

Regarding the specific guestimate:

> Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
> an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
> number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
> year.

If it's helpful, the prototype system stored user programs in a git-like fashion.

That is each save created a version on the server pointing back to the earlier
version, and the "program" pointed at the most recent version.

That means we could get data on how many times a program was editted before
being viewed as "done" by a child.

Note: I must admit I think reflashing constantly is a bad idea - and my suggestion
above of treating flash effectively as swap, for obvious reasons, and I suspect I'm
not alone there -- but just looking at options really.

> just beginning to start to think of the
> practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)

As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
think about user experience, and make it very usable.

Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.

Absolutely, just trying to check how this compares to the other dev platforms - what
you gain is clear, the concern is just what might you lose, and what *could* be done
to mitigate that.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback,

Best Regards,



Michael.



_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
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From j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk  Sat Jul 11 23:59:21 2015
From: j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk (Finney, Joe)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2015 21:59:21 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>

Hi Guys,

Just catching up on this thread?

Awesome work Damien ? I?ve been tracking progress a bit as you?ve been discussing with James Devine here in Lancaster. Great stuff!

I agree with Michael here, there is a risk that not having BLE will limit the potential of a micropython based platform. Is it just the SRAM footprint (I say ?just? but the BLE implementation is roughly equivalent to a supernova going off in your RAM!)? If so, I have some good news... We?ve just freed up about another 2k of SRAM by reverting to an older version of soft device and some careful tweaking of the mbed tools. We have this known working now (but not yet published as we need to do some cleanup first). With a bit of tuning we *might* also get an addition 500 bytes out of the BLE/Nordic SDKs?

We?re also working on some unified extensible interfaces for BLE and IoT that we?re hoping to put in the runtime over the next few weeks. If the additional SRAM is enough, perhaps you could interface to this to get some connectivity? If you *could* run on top/alongside the micro:bit runtime lib, this would also take care of FOTA flashing transparently, I think?

Thoughts?

Joe

p.s. can?t believe you can get micropython on a 16 series PIC micro. Those things are seriously constrained!

From: Michael [mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com]
Sent: 10 July 2015 15:48
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions; Finney, Joe
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

Hi Damien,


[Massive snip]

That's really useful - and really interesting to read. I think you can guess
that the pain points are where I thought they might be based on the
questions, but it's really interesting data.

I think two questions arise generally, and this is pretty much a major long shot.

Two things that the device has in the non-python environments:

1) - is the ability to reflash the device over the air
2) - the ability to use bluetooth from user programs.

(Both of these are as I understand it - my technical involvement technically ceased
with the end of the schools' trial using the prototype device/software stack, and after
delivery of detailed baseline reference tech specs.)

My impression from your comments is that we can probably retain the former.

My impression is that the latter would be ... tricky - at best.

Assuming these two impressions are right, that in itself makes me wonder, and I'm
thinking of a slightly odd option.

For powersaving on the prototype device, we had a 2032 battery which would have
its effective voltage drop over time from often just over 3V to below 2.6/2.7V dependent
on current draw (the 32u4's brown out voltage), etc. In the end the power saving solution
we used was to a) only have 1 LED lit at a time, rapidly cyle through the display in a raster
fashion, and then b) put the entire device to sleep for a microscopic time period, on a
watchdog timer, then wake the whole device up, run for a bit, then go back to sleep.

The reason I mention this is for a possibly bonkers option for item 2. In this case, rather
than our constraint being power, our constraint is RAM. As I say, it is a bit bonkers (since
it might cause issues for the flash), but would it be possible to save micropython state
periodically to flash, activate the bluetooth, check for activity, deactivate, and then
continue.

That or possibly treat the Freescale chip as a co-processor? Run a minimal DAL on the
Nordic, but run micropython on the freescale? (This is partly inspired by the tricks people
used to do with things like the C64 disk drives to use the 6502 CPUs in those as
coprocessors on the system.

(That's a rather big if... and trying to find the right version of the Kinetis MKL26 datasheet
at the moment.)

I guess what I'm a bit worried about is whether the lack of BLE will make the python version
be viewed as less awesome than it is, and I'm just pondering possible options.

As a personal position, I personally really want to go down this route because I think as well
as awesome and clever, I think it's a neat and tidy solution, and without BLE to confuse the
issue I don't think there would be any questions at all. As a result that's why I'm exploring the
edges and just looking to see what is in the art of the possible, rather than pre-requisites.

It won't ultimately be my decision at the end of the day though.

Regarding the specific guestimate:

> Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
> an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
> number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
> year.

If it's helpful, the prototype system stored user programs in a git-like fashion.

That is each save created a version on the server pointing back to the earlier
version, and the "program" pointed at the most recent version.

That means we could get data on how many times a program was editted before
being viewed as "done" by a child.

Note: I must admit I think reflashing constantly is a bad idea - and my suggestion
above of treating flash effectively as swap, for obvious reasons, and I suspect I'm
not alone there -- but just looking at options really.

> just beginning to start to think of the
> practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)

As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
think about user experience, and make it very usable.

Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.

Absolutely, just trying to check how this compares to the other dev platforms - what
you gain is clear, the concern is just what might you lose, and what *could* be done
to mitigate that.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback,

Best Regards,



Michael.


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Sun Jul 12 02:41:55 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 01:41:55 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>

On 11/07/15 22:59, Finney, Joe wrote:
> I agree with Michael here, there is a risk that not having BLE will
> limit the potential of a micropython based platform.

I disagree. The benefits far outweigh the lack of BLE (although I
totally share your desire to make BLE work if at all possible).
Apologies in advance for the evangelical tone I take - like you, I'm
completely floored by what Damien has achieved, both as a Python
programmer and as a teacher.

I wish you could see it in action. Programming the device directly via
the Python REPL is a hugely compelling educational activity. Kids love
the immediacy of it all (we see this every year at PyCon UK when kids as
young as 7 blinkenlight with LEDs and a RPi). :-)

As a programmer and teacher who values freedom and flexibility, being
able to use the tools *I* choose to work with is important. Writing
Python using my preferred editor and dragging the .py file to the device
doesn't lock me into a single hosted platform that I won't be familiar
with. It also reduces the risks associated with a project that relies on
the goodwill of third party corporate sponsorship. There is no third
party with MicroPython - it's just you and the device.

That it's *real* Python is also a wonderful thing - the learning pathway
from the micro:bit to other programming activities (such as Python on
the RPi) is a *lot* more obvious, simpler and easy to facilitate as a
result. I get to teach in a language with which both me and my students
are already familiar (remember, text based programming is part of KS3
and Python is the usual way this is achieved).

Classroom management is also a lot easier with a device you just plug
in, connect to and type instructions. I know from experience how painful
getting a class of 30 kids to sign into a website can be. What happens
to the lesson if the school's connection goes down 5 minutes in? Who
sets up the accounts? What happens if I'm on XP with IE6 (still somewhat
common in schools with creaking old IT infrastructure)?

Furthermore, that it is an alternative also means we're facilitating
exploration, experimentation and evaluation - all essential
skills/attitudes for a successful engineer.

As a kid I'm motivated by Python because it's a real programming
language. The skills I'm learning have real economic value and, hells
bells, MicroPython is being evaluated by the ESA for use in space bound
payloads. Who doesn't want to write code on a platform that maybe used
in space!?! Think of the imaginative / inspirational angle of that..!

Personally, I think kids are going to have a lot of fun poking around
with all the other stuff MicroPython can do.

There's also a positive spin on the current lack of BLE: having unsolved
problems is also a good thing for building a community too. There's
nothing like a challenge to get people diving in and engaging... that's
why I'm trying to get Howard to give us as many micro:bits as he can
spare. It'll create such a buzz in the wider Python community. ;-)

If there is some way in which it can be made to work then I *definitely*
think we should try. The Python Software Foundation (PSF) intends to
create "bounties" for Python related work and progress on the device.
BLE could be a good candidate when the project finally opens up. It's
far better that it works or we attempt to make it work than to not try
at all.

Having said that, this all depends on how much the BBC are willing to
support these "off script" MicroPython efforts. Those of us in the
Python community who went through the process of signing an NDA,
volunteering personal weekend time and exploring the available options
certainly believe it is, by far and away, the best Python solution for
the micro:bit.

Damien has delivered an epic solution. Of course we should attempt to
make it the best solution we can, but not to go with an already
compelling solution would simply be throwing away the baby with the
bathwater.

Such is life: a series of compromises in an ever changing world. ;-)

Best wishes,

Nicholas.

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Sun Jul 12 12:46:20 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:46:20 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938C15B@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi Nicholas,

My personal view on this is that everybody is talking about the same thing. Micropython is a brilliant solution and we should be aiming to support it and get it out there -- it would be mad not to. I think what Michael, Joe and I are talking about is can we do other things as well -- can we *also* explore getting BLE supported and see if there is a way to do it -- not just because it would help Micropython and kids but because it would help the whole project to optimise things -- and can we *also* see if we can get a version inside the web app. Not as an alternative but as a way of extending Python (and Micropython) to another audience. If we can do both then let's try to do it, if we can't then offline offers all the advantages you've outlined.

Thanks for everything
Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 12 July 2015 01:42
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

On 11/07/15 22:59, Finney, Joe wrote:
> I agree with Michael here, there is a risk that not having BLE will
> limit the potential of a micropython based platform.

I disagree. The benefits far outweigh the lack of BLE (although I
totally share your desire to make BLE work if at all possible).
Apologies in advance for the evangelical tone I take - like you, I'm
completely floored by what Damien has achieved, both as a Python
programmer and as a teacher.

I wish you could see it in action. Programming the device directly via
the Python REPL is a hugely compelling educational activity. Kids love
the immediacy of it all (we see this every year at PyCon UK when kids as
young as 7 blinkenlight with LEDs and a RPi). :-)

As a programmer and teacher who values freedom and flexibility, being
able to use the tools *I* choose to work with is important. Writing
Python using my preferred editor and dragging the .py file to the device
doesn't lock me into a single hosted platform that I won't be familiar
with. It also reduces the risks associated with a project that relies on
the goodwill of third party corporate sponsorship. There is no third
party with MicroPython - it's just you and the device.

That it's *real* Python is also a wonderful thing - the learning pathway
from the micro:bit to other programming activities (such as Python on
the RPi) is a *lot* more obvious, simpler and easy to facilitate as a
result. I get to teach in a language with which both me and my students
are already familiar (remember, text based programming is part of KS3
and Python is the usual way this is achieved).

Classroom management is also a lot easier with a device you just plug
in, connect to and type instructions. I know from experience how painful
getting a class of 30 kids to sign into a website can be. What happens
to the lesson if the school's connection goes down 5 minutes in? Who
sets up the accounts? What happens if I'm on XP with IE6 (still somewhat
common in schools with creaking old IT infrastructure)?

Furthermore, that it is an alternative also means we're facilitating
exploration, experimentation and evaluation - all essential
skills/attitudes for a successful engineer.

As a kid I'm motivated by Python because it's a real programming
language. The skills I'm learning have real economic value and, hells
bells, MicroPython is being evaluated by the ESA for use in space bound
payloads. Who doesn't want to write code on a platform that maybe used
in space!?! Think of the imaginative / inspirational angle of that..!

Personally, I think kids are going to have a lot of fun poking around
with all the other stuff MicroPython can do.

There's also a positive spin on the current lack of BLE: having unsolved
problems is also a good thing for building a community too. There's
nothing like a challenge to get people diving in and engaging... that's
why I'm trying to get Howard to give us as many micro:bits as he can
spare. It'll create such a buzz in the wider Python community. ;-)

If there is some way in which it can be made to work then I *definitely*
think we should try. The Python Software Foundation (PSF) intends to
create "bounties" for Python related work and progress on the device.
BLE could be a good candidate when the project finally opens up. It's
far better that it works or we attempt to make it work than to not try
at all.

Having said that, this all depends on how much the BBC are willing to
support these "off script" MicroPython efforts. Those of us in the
Python community who went through the process of signing an NDA,
volunteering personal weekend time and exploring the available options
certainly believe it is, by far and away, the best Python solution for
the micro:bit.

Damien has delivered an epic solution. Of course we should attempt to
make it the best solution we can, but not to go with an already
compelling solution would simply be throwing away the baby with the
bathwater.

Such is life: a series of compromises in an ever changing world. ;-)

Best wishes,

Nicholas.



-----------------------------
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Do not use, copy or disclose the
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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 13:57:44 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 12:57:44 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVAp_GmdnRdQ3cvWW8_WDsze7Ba4KvA8dw3T2n1HAR4_KA@mail.gmail.com>

Quick comments which I hope help - this isn't an either this OR that
situation.

It's an unexpected awesome curveball.

I don't think there's a single part of what you've written,  that I
disagree with. As a programmer, from a free software perspective, from the
perspective of tools, from a 'what happens if you lose access to the
compiler' (host down, end of life x years down line etc), and so on, heck
even from the perspective of a cub/scout leader running a session with 24
kids in a Hall without Internet connectivity,  and or a teacher wanting to
keep lesson on track.

All of those concerns fed into the system for the schools trial,  and into
the recommendation for open source, which fell on a fertile audience (their
default assumption) so to speak.  We'd chatted about creating .debs of the
system so that schools could run their local servers easily (which is why
I'd looked into PPA's), the possibility of a local offline editor with the
compilation tool chain, etc. (That used IOToy's PySide based editor).
Indeed,  once the stack is released as open source,  which should include
the prototype version,  I'll do just that. When it comes to logins, I was
rather undiplomatic and detailed and clear about issues, and consequences,
etc. That fed into the spec, etc :-)

That all hopefully explains just how wonderfully surprised we were by
micropython. It wipes out whole classes of issues in one swoop, as you
say,  providing real fun opportunities,  and capabilities, in a much better
way.

Ie, in short I get it,  and I'm also *far* from the only person agreeing
with you.

But,  I'm a 41 year old bloke - not 11, and this goes right to the heart of
the proposition, in my mind. While getting teachers in board is vital, the
target audience is the kids. Not only that an entire slice of the
population at 11,  not one demographic.

I think we all tend to know that the interesting things will happen at
home,  when the kids are not supported, except perhaps by friends and
YouTube videos they make for each other.

My concern is that some children would look at the device running python,
without BLE, and see it as a less capable platform than those running touch
develop or blocks. That perception would be 'WRONG' (I view stand alone
programmability as far superior), but because the workflow or functionality
they're used to simply not working, and not having access to bluetooth.
They'd blame python, or worse themselves.

I'm not talking here about the 2-5 geeks per class,  but the rest of the
class. The outcome of that might be that far from having the positive
effect we all want, it has a negative impact on how children view python vs
(say) touch develop.

Personally,  I suspect that's minimal risk, but it needs *considering* . We
don't really want kids looking at this thinking 'I can't do as much',
simply because one thing is different.

Also, I think those of us that have worked with 11 year olds know that
sometimes the ones that do that - that give up - are often the ones you'd
least want to... (That's what I see in scouts for example, and that starts
as early as Cubs)

HOWEVER, Why do I think it's minimal risk?

* I actually believe that at home,  kids will use generally the wired
connection not bluetooth for getting programs onto devices. (I have NO data
on how realistic that is)

* As you say,  when working with python in KS3 *now*, this does as you say
match the way they currently work.

* At 11 they're still just young enough,  and willing enough to accept
'this is the way this works,  this is the way you do *this*'. They can be
often proto-teenagers at that age,  but they do tend to still accept this
:-)

Scenarios that seem likely though: (how common, or in one case how
desirable I'm not sure)

* Using bluetooth as a remote control - eg for controlling toys etc.  This
would require a more motivated 11 year old though,  with more resources.

* Using a tablet to code beneath the bed sheets, and wanting to get code
into their device. This either requires bluetooth (for ease), a suitable
cable or Web service to access their python code later.

I'm more concerned about the former obviously, though the bed sheets one of
accessing code through the cloud is actually a problem I believe we'd all
like to solve for out bed scenarios :) Which is why the prototype had a
more 'github for kids' approach' in terms if store/approach.

So, If we can eliminate that minor doubt,  it'd be great.  If we can't, we
can find another way. Figuring out IF this can be done would make a great
bounty fwiw.

On the final point about NDAs, etc.  We've been chatting about that - I
raised just how anti-thetical they are to many,  if not many on this list,
and the team have said they'll have a check to see if it's really still
needed, and/or if there is a more open alternative.

This isn't however about saying this OR that. The baby and the bathwater
are safe as I understand it.

Put bluntly,  I think we all know on this list that any solution that
doesn't have micropython as part of it would suck, and we're just looking
to see where the gaps lie, where they're easy to fix,  possible to fix or
hard. And that there's a niggle of a worry that if one of the gaps is
viewed by kids is important that python *could* be viewed in a way none of
us want.

Finally,  3 questions,  with the answers I'd suspect in brackets:

* Does that make sense? (I hope yes)
* Are we overly worried? (Possibly)
* Would the python community want to take that risk?  (Almost certainly,
it's less of a risk than Python 3)

On that basis,  there are IMO two main things to figure out:

* How to make the micropython dev  environment the best it can be in the
time we have.

* How to make the UX experience,  including code sharing the best it can
be. Perhaps based around using the blocks editor as a template, since that
had to store and share text already. However, this is also very similar to
the problem that Code Kingdoms are facing for their work, so there's also
alternatives there.

As I say does that make any sense?

Best Regards,

Michael.
On 12 Jul 2015 01:42, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 11/07/15 22:59, Finney, Joe wrote:
> > I agree with Michael here, there is a risk that not having BLE will
> > limit the potential of a micropython based platform.
>
> I disagree. The benefits far outweigh the lack of BLE (although I
> totally share your desire to make BLE work if at all possible).
> Apologies in advance for the evangelical tone I take - like you, I'm
> completely floored by what Damien has achieved, both as a Python
> programmer and as a teacher.
>
> I wish you could see it in action. Programming the device directly via
> the Python REPL is a hugely compelling educational activity. Kids love
> the immediacy of it all (we see this every year at PyCon UK when kids as
> young as 7 blinkenlight with LEDs and a RPi). :-)
>
> As a programmer and teacher who values freedom and flexibility, being
> able to use the tools *I* choose to work with is important. Writing
> Python using my preferred editor and dragging the .py file to the device
> doesn't lock me into a single hosted platform that I won't be familiar
> with. It also reduces the risks associated with a project that relies on
> the goodwill of third party corporate sponsorship. There is no third
> party with MicroPython - it's just you and the device.
>
> That it's *real* Python is also a wonderful thing - the learning pathway
> from the micro:bit to other programming activities (such as Python on
> the RPi) is a *lot* more obvious, simpler and easy to facilitate as a
> result. I get to teach in a language with which both me and my students
> are already familiar (remember, text based programming is part of KS3
> and Python is the usual way this is achieved).
>
> Classroom management is also a lot easier with a device you just plug
> in, connect to and type instructions. I know from experience how painful
> getting a class of 30 kids to sign into a website can be. What happens
> to the lesson if the school's connection goes down 5 minutes in? Who
> sets up the accounts? What happens if I'm on XP with IE6 (still somewhat
> common in schools with creaking old IT infrastructure)?
>
> Furthermore, that it is an alternative also means we're facilitating
> exploration, experimentation and evaluation - all essential
> skills/attitudes for a successful engineer.
>
> As a kid I'm motivated by Python because it's a real programming
> language. The skills I'm learning have real economic value and, hells
> bells, MicroPython is being evaluated by the ESA for use in space bound
> payloads. Who doesn't want to write code on a platform that maybe used
> in space!?! Think of the imaginative / inspirational angle of that..!
>
> Personally, I think kids are going to have a lot of fun poking around
> with all the other stuff MicroPython can do.
>
> There's also a positive spin on the current lack of BLE: having unsolved
> problems is also a good thing for building a community too. There's
> nothing like a challenge to get people diving in and engaging... that's
> why I'm trying to get Howard to give us as many micro:bits as he can
> spare. It'll create such a buzz in the wider Python community. ;-)
>
> If there is some way in which it can be made to work then I *definitely*
> think we should try. The Python Software Foundation (PSF) intends to
> create "bounties" for Python related work and progress on the device.
> BLE could be a good candidate when the project finally opens up. It's
> far better that it works or we attempt to make it work than to not try
> at all.
>
> Having said that, this all depends on how much the BBC are willing to
> support these "off script" MicroPython efforts. Those of us in the
> Python community who went through the process of signing an NDA,
> volunteering personal weekend time and exploring the available options
> certainly believe it is, by far and away, the best Python solution for
> the micro:bit.
>
> Damien has delivered an epic solution. Of course we should attempt to
> make it the best solution we can, but not to go with an already
> compelling solution would simply be throwing away the baby with the
> bathwater.
>
> Such is life: a series of compromises in an ever changing world. ;-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nicholas.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Sun Jul 12 18:50:16 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 17:50:16 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938C15B@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938C15B@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55A29AC8.7020603@ntoll.org>

Hi Howard,

Quite agree and thanks for putting in writing something that has perhaps
been a tacet assumption but never clearly stated to us Pythonistas. I.e.
"we should be aiming to support it and get it out there -- it would be
mad not to."

I was under the impression the BBC were still evaluating and that a
decision about MicroPython's inclusion within the "fold" was yet to be
made. Wires have been appropriately un-crossed. ;-)

I'm relieved we're all on the same page with this. I think we'd be hard
pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to make the solution work in the
best of all possible ways.

Here's to making things work... ;-)

N.

On 12/07/15 11:46, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
> 
> My personal view on this is that everybody is talking about the same
> thing. Micropython is a brilliant solution and we should be aiming to
> support it and get it out there -- it would be mad not to. I think
> what Michael, Joe and I are talking about is can we do other things
> as well -- can we *also* explore getting BLE supported and see if
> there is a way to do it -- not just because it would help Micropython
> and kids but because it would help the whole project to optimise
> things -- and can we *also* see if we can get a version inside the
> web app. Not as an alternative but as a way of extending Python (and
> Micropython) to another audience. If we can do both then let's try to
> do it, if we can't then offline offers all the advantages you've
> outlined.
> 
> Thanks for everything Howard
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Microbit
> [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf
> Of Nicholas H.Tollervey Sent: 12 July 2015 01:42 To:
> microbit at python.org Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the
> device to the media
> 
> On 11/07/15 22:59, Finney, Joe wrote:
>> I agree with Michael here, there is a risk that not having BLE
>> will limit the potential of a micropython based platform.
> 
> I disagree. The benefits far outweigh the lack of BLE (although I 
> totally share your desire to make BLE work if at all possible). 
> Apologies in advance for the evangelical tone I take - like you, I'm 
> completely floored by what Damien has achieved, both as a Python 
> programmer and as a teacher.
> 
> I wish you could see it in action. Programming the device directly
> via the Python REPL is a hugely compelling educational activity. Kids
> love the immediacy of it all (we see this every year at PyCon UK when
> kids as young as 7 blinkenlight with LEDs and a RPi). :-)
> 
> As a programmer and teacher who values freedom and flexibility,
> being able to use the tools *I* choose to work with is important.
> Writing Python using my preferred editor and dragging the .py file to
> the device doesn't lock me into a single hosted platform that I won't
> be familiar with. It also reduces the risks associated with a project
> that relies on the goodwill of third party corporate sponsorship.
> There is no third party with MicroPython - it's just you and the
> device.
> 
> That it's *real* Python is also a wonderful thing - the learning
> pathway from the micro:bit to other programming activities (such as
> Python on the RPi) is a *lot* more obvious, simpler and easy to
> facilitate as a result. I get to teach in a language with which both
> me and my students are already familiar (remember, text based
> programming is part of KS3 and Python is the usual way this is
> achieved).
> 
> Classroom management is also a lot easier with a device you just
> plug in, connect to and type instructions. I know from experience how
> painful getting a class of 30 kids to sign into a website can be.
> What happens to the lesson if the school's connection goes down 5
> minutes in? Who sets up the accounts? What happens if I'm on XP with
> IE6 (still somewhat common in schools with creaking old IT
> infrastructure)?
> 
> Furthermore, that it is an alternative also means we're facilitating 
> exploration, experimentation and evaluation - all essential 
> skills/attitudes for a successful engineer.
> 
> As a kid I'm motivated by Python because it's a real programming 
> language. The skills I'm learning have real economic value and,
> hells bells, MicroPython is being evaluated by the ESA for use in
> space bound payloads. Who doesn't want to write code on a platform
> that maybe used in space!?! Think of the imaginative / inspirational
> angle of that..!
> 
> Personally, I think kids are going to have a lot of fun poking
> around with all the other stuff MicroPython can do.
> 
> There's also a positive spin on the current lack of BLE: having
> unsolved problems is also a good thing for building a community too.
> There's nothing like a challenge to get people diving in and
> engaging... that's why I'm trying to get Howard to give us as many
> micro:bits as he can spare. It'll create such a buzz in the wider
> Python community. ;-)
> 
> If there is some way in which it can be made to work then I
> *definitely* think we should try. The Python Software Foundation
> (PSF) intends to create "bounties" for Python related work and
> progress on the device. BLE could be a good candidate when the
> project finally opens up. It's far better that it works or we attempt
> to make it work than to not try at all.
> 
> Having said that, this all depends on how much the BBC are willing
> to support these "off script" MicroPython efforts. Those of us in
> the Python community who went through the process of signing an NDA, 
> volunteering personal weekend time and exploring the available
> options certainly believe it is, by far and away, the best Python
> solution for the micro:bit.
> 
> Damien has delivered an epic solution. Of course we should attempt
> to make it the best solution we can, but not to go with an already 
> compelling solution would simply be throwing away the baby with the 
> bathwater.
> 
> Such is life: a series of compromises in an ever changing world. ;-)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Nicholas.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------- http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and
> any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which
> are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have
> received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use,
> copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it
> and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors
> e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your
> consent to this. ----------------------------- 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Sun Jul 12 18:59:58 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 17:59:58 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVAp_GmdnRdQ3cvWW8_WDsze7Ba4KvA8dw3T2n1HAR4_KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
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 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVAp_GmdnRdQ3cvWW8_WDsze7Ba4KvA8dw3T2n1HAR4_KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A29D0E.5060005@ntoll.org>

Michael,

On 12/07/15 12:57, Michael wrote:
> Quick comments which I hope help - this isn't an either this OR that
> situation.
> 

Quite... see my reply just now to Howard. I'm relieved it isn't an
either this or that, but it's nice to have it clearly stated (rather
than a tacet assumption). To be clear, I got the feeling you were all
terribly impressed with Damien's work but that you were still evaluating
things - nothing had been explicitly stated about support for
MicroPython moving forward.

> It's an unexpected awesome curveball.
> 

Tell me about it... :-D

> I don't think there's a single part of what you've written,  that I
> disagree with. As a programmer, from a free software perspective, from
> the perspective of tools, from a 'what happens if you lose access to the
> compiler' (host down, end of life x years down line etc), and so on,
> heck even from the perspective of a cub/scout leader running a session
> with 24 kids in a Hall without Internet connectivity,  and or a teacher
> wanting to keep lesson on track.
> 

:-)

> All of those concerns fed into the system for the schools trial,  and
> into the recommendation for open source, which fell on a fertile
> audience (their default assumption) so to speak.  We'd chatted about
> creating .debs of the system so that schools could run their local
> servers easily (which is why I'd looked into PPA's), the possibility of
> a local offline editor with the compilation tool chain, etc. (That used
> IOToy's PySide based editor).  Indeed,  once the stack is released as
> open source,  which should include the prototype version,  I'll do just
> that. When it comes to logins, I was rather undiplomatic and detailed
> and clear about issues, and consequences, etc. That fed into the spec,
> etc :-)
> 
> That all hopefully explains just how wonderfully surprised we were by
> micropython. It wipes out whole classes of issues in one swoop, as you
> say,  providing real fun opportunities,  and capabilities, in a much
> better way.
> 

Good to hear. Is this all going into your PyCon UK talk..? Pretty much
everyone involved from the Python community side of things will be there
(as well as teachers).

> Ie, in short I get it,  and I'm also *far* from the only person agreeing
> with you.
> 
> But,  I'm a 41 year old bloke - not 11, and this goes right to the heart

1973 was obviously a vintage year (me too)

<snip a bunch of stuff that we can discuss over a pint sometime/> ;-)

> Put bluntly,  I think we all know on this list that any solution that
> doesn't have micropython as part of it would suck, and we're just
> looking to see where the gaps lie, where they're easy to fix,  possible
> to fix or hard. And that there's a niggle of a worry that if one of the
> gaps is viewed by kids is important that python *could* be viewed in a
> way none of us want.
> 

OK... we're all on the same page here.

> Finally,  3 questions,  with the answers I'd suspect in brackets:
> 
> * Does that make sense? (I hope yes)

Yes.

> * Are we overly worried? (Possibly)

Possibly, but it's always good to make sure.

> * Would the python community want to take that risk?  (Almost certainly,
> it's less of a risk than Python 3)
> 

You mean by not (currently) having BLE..? Personally, I wonder how hard
the mythical 32k version of the device would be (at some later date).
Given the Python community's passion about education, not having Python
on the micro:bit would be a heinous oversight on our part. That's why I
made the proposal on the PSF's behalf. ;-)

I also agree with you about the bounty option. However, for this to
happen the Python community would need to be unencumbered to work in the
way they're used to. MicroPython is already MIT licensed but we'd need
test devices and freedom to discuss, explore and experiment. Schematics,
other core data and (I'm guessing) the DAL code should all be available
otherwise we're stymied.

Also, this list should be opened up to be public.

> On that basis,  there are IMO two main things to figure out:
> 
> * How to make the micropython dev  environment the best it can be in the
> time we have.
> 

Agreed. several of us already have various ideas about that already.
Tomorrow or Tuesday I'll start a new thread about it on this list.

> * How to make the UX experience,  including code sharing the best it can
> be. Perhaps based around using the blocks editor as a template, since
> that had to store and share text already. However, this is also very
> similar to the problem that Code Kingdoms are facing for their work, so
> there's also alternatives there.
> 

Quite... these are interesting problems.

> As I say does that make any sense?
>

Absolutely. As always, many thanks for your always considered and
thoughtful contributions!

:-)

Best wishes,

Nicholas.


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Sun Jul 12 19:51:40 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 18:51:40 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <55A29D0E.5060005@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
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 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVAp_GmdnRdQ3cvWW8_WDsze7Ba4KvA8dw3T2n1HAR4_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A29D0E.5060005@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVBqE-+4RDQSyyaEbrHm4+_aMa50RRZi+=JpkQt3LyLJyw@mail.gmail.com>

Hiya,


On 12 July 2015 at 17:59, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 12/07/15 12:57, Michael wrote:
> > Quick comments which I hope help - this isn't an either this OR that
> > situation.



Quite... see my reply just now to Howard. I'm relieved it isn't an
> either this or that, but it's nice to have it clearly stated (rather
> than a tacet assumption).


Will try and be clearer in future :)

[snip]
>
> Good to hear. Is this all going into your PyCon UK talk..? Pretty much
> everyone involved from the Python community side of things will be there
> (as well as teachers).


As much as I can. I'll be realistic about timings though too. In a way, my
aim for the talk is to signpost what's needed to build such a thing and
where the pain points are, since that's really what was learnt, and what
people would need to build their own devices, and systems going forward.

OK... we're all on the same page here.
>
>

> > Finally,  3 questions,  with the answers I'd suspect in brackets:
> >
> > * Does that make sense? (I hope yes)
>
> Yes.
>
> > * Are we overly worried? (Possibly)
>
> Possibly, but it's always good to make sure.


Cool.



> > * Would the python community want to take that risk?  (Almost certainly,
> > it's less of a risk than Python 3)
> >
>
> You mean by not (currently) having BLE..?


Yep. My guess, based on everything I've seen over the years, is "yes". After
all, what's the alternative ? To say "no"? :-) That'd suck.


> Personally, I wonder how hard
> the mythical 32k version of the device would be (at some later date).
>

I'd expect such a beast to pop into existence quite quickly, but for the
purposes
of this conversation probably a bit of a distraction.


> Given the Python community's passion about education, not having Python
> on the micro:bit would be a heinous oversight on our part. That's why I
> made the proposal on the PSF's behalf. ;-)
>

Absolutely. It's also why I said "I can't tell you why I'm pointing you at
this, but
you know me and my interests and I know your interests, so I think you'd
find it
interesting" when the original call for EOI thing came out :-)

I end up rattling round like a caged monkey when things have to be secret :)

I also agree with you about the bounty option. However, for this to
> happen the Python community would need to be unencumbered to work in the
> way they're used to.


Agreed - I think the partnership team would want to confirm things with
people.
(Not sure who, but I'm sure they would) I tend to rush in and worry people,
but I'd
share that impression.

MicroPython is already MIT licensed but we'd need
> test devices and freedom to discuss, explore and experiment. Schematics,
> other core data and (I'm guessing) the DAL code should all be available
> otherwise we're stymied.
>

This is out of my hands too - though in the blog post about the process of
developing
the prototype there is a hand etched large SRPB hand soldered, through hole
based
micro:bit. The key reason for that was to create a dev kit for me to move
forward.
As a result of that, I believe the wider team will fully understand the
necessity of
dev kits, etc.

For reference, regarding the prototype/reference implementation, the
recommendation
I made was for the Apache 2 license - something I switched to a few years
ago after
a conversation at Pycon UK. Again, whether that's used for the production
version, I
don't know. I can make recommendations, but I'm generally shielded from the
wider
concerns the BBC normally has to contend with.


Also, this list should be opened up to be public


If we do it might be worth checking no-one wanted their comments zapped.
(habit for
anything switching privacy modes) Beyond that, I'd agree.



> > On that basis,  there are IMO two main things to figure out:
> >
> > * How to make the micropython dev  environment the best it can be in the
> > time we have.
> >
>
> Agreed. several of us already have various ideas about that already.
> Tomorrow or Tuesday I'll start a new thread about it on this list.


Cool.


> As I say does that make any sense?
> >
>
> Absolutely. As always, many thanks for your always considered and
> thoughtful contributions!
>
> :-)
>

I try :)

Have fun,


Michael.
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From j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk  Sun Jul 12 19:46:16 2015
From: j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk (Finney, Joe)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 17:46:16 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <55A29D0E.5060005@ntoll.org>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB3A23@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A1B7D3.6030703@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVAp_GmdnRdQ3cvWW8_WDsze7Ba4KvA8dw3T2n1HAR4_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A29D0E.5060005@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AB46CC@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>

Nicholas,

Really just to reiterate what's already been said - PLEASE don't misinterpret my email as in any way implying that we shouldn't get micropython on the micro:bit released to the wild! To my mind, we MUST - it's a great addition to micro:bit, and quite different from all the other language offerings.

I agree completely with what you were saying in your soapbox email (which was truly excellent by the way!). I run the Computing at School (CAS) regional centre for the North West, so believe me, I completely understand where you're coming from on a teachers/curriculum perspective! As you quite rightly stated, diversity is a truly great thing and this should not be a discussion about *if* we do this, but a discussion of the *best* way to achieve it, and integrate it into the package. Let's provide a broad range of offerings, then the different teachers of different kids in different classes and different years will all have the chance to pick what suits them best - be it Python, Blockly, TD, Javascript or whatever. It's all good. :-)

I'll be working on the BLE and USB interfaces for the micro:bit runtime (the DAL) over the next week or two. It would be awesome if we can get the micropython implementation co-habiting with the runtime library if possible. This would be good to reduce duplication of effort and ensures that python users have access to the same, consistent set of core functionality as the other languages - and thereby also gaining you BLE. The runtime library is currently about 650 bytes static footprint, plus about another 300 on the heap. With the reduced SoftDevice footprint we've been working on, this might be just about doable, but we could also look at a custom drop for micropython that leaves out some features you don't need (e.g. the scheduler?). 

This is just one route to explore though... don't let me stop you exploring others. :-)

You guys have access to the MicroBitDAL source code right? It will be open sourced on project launch, but we're under contract not to do so until then. I expect there will be a way to provide access to the necessary Python folks though, depending on how many people you want to include in the development of this bit. This is something you'd need to discuss with BBC folks obviously. Lancaster would be happy to give you any support you need (within our ability of course - we're really pushed for time too!)

p.s. I'm also 41... (well in a few weeks anyway!)... A legendary vintage, clearly. :-D

Joe



-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+j.finney=lancaster.ac.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 12 July 2015 18:00
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

Michael,

On 12/07/15 12:57, Michael wrote:
> Quick comments which I hope help - this isn't an either this OR that 
> situation.
> 

Quite... see my reply just now to Howard. I'm relieved it isn't an either this or that, but it's nice to have it clearly stated (rather than a tacet assumption). To be clear, I got the feeling you were all terribly impressed with Damien's work but that you were still evaluating things - nothing had been explicitly stated about support for MicroPython moving forward.

> It's an unexpected awesome curveball.
> 

Tell me about it... :-D

> I don't think there's a single part of what you've written,  that I 
> disagree with. As a programmer, from a free software perspective, from 
> the perspective of tools, from a 'what happens if you lose access to 
> the compiler' (host down, end of life x years down line etc), and so 
> on, heck even from the perspective of a cub/scout leader running a 
> session with 24 kids in a Hall without Internet connectivity,  and or 
> a teacher wanting to keep lesson on track.
> 

:-)

> All of those concerns fed into the system for the schools trial,  and 
> into the recommendation for open source, which fell on a fertile 
> audience (their default assumption) so to speak.  We'd chatted about 
> creating .debs of the system so that schools could run their local 
> servers easily (which is why I'd looked into PPA's), the possibility 
> of a local offline editor with the compilation tool chain, etc. (That 
> used IOToy's PySide based editor).  Indeed,  once the stack is 
> released as open source,  which should include the prototype version,  
> I'll do just that. When it comes to logins, I was rather undiplomatic 
> and detailed and clear about issues, and consequences, etc. That fed 
> into the spec, etc :-)
> 
> That all hopefully explains just how wonderfully surprised we were by 
> micropython. It wipes out whole classes of issues in one swoop, as you 
> say,  providing real fun opportunities,  and capabilities, in a much 
> better way.
> 

Good to hear. Is this all going into your PyCon UK talk..? Pretty much everyone involved from the Python community side of things will be there (as well as teachers).

> Ie, in short I get it,  and I'm also *far* from the only person 
> agreeing with you.
> 
> But,  I'm a 41 year old bloke - not 11, and this goes right to the 
> heart

1973 was obviously a vintage year (me too)

<snip a bunch of stuff that we can discuss over a pint sometime/> ;-)

> Put bluntly,  I think we all know on this list that any solution that 
> doesn't have micropython as part of it would suck, and we're just 
> looking to see where the gaps lie, where they're easy to fix,  
> possible to fix or hard. And that there's a niggle of a worry that if 
> one of the gaps is viewed by kids is important that python *could* be 
> viewed in a way none of us want.
> 

OK... we're all on the same page here.

> Finally,  3 questions,  with the answers I'd suspect in brackets:
> 
> * Does that make sense? (I hope yes)

Yes.

> * Are we overly worried? (Possibly)

Possibly, but it's always good to make sure.

> * Would the python community want to take that risk?  (Almost 
> certainly, it's less of a risk than Python 3)
> 

You mean by not (currently) having BLE..? Personally, I wonder how hard the mythical 32k version of the device would be (at some later date).
Given the Python community's passion about education, not having Python on the micro:bit would be a heinous oversight on our part. That's why I made the proposal on the PSF's behalf. ;-)

I also agree with you about the bounty option. However, for this to happen the Python community would need to be unencumbered to work in the way they're used to. MicroPython is already MIT licensed but we'd need test devices and freedom to discuss, explore and experiment. Schematics, other core data and (I'm guessing) the DAL code should all be available otherwise we're stymied.

Also, this list should be opened up to be public.

> On that basis,  there are IMO two main things to figure out:
> 
> * How to make the micropython dev  environment the best it can be in 
> the time we have.
> 

Agreed. several of us already have various ideas about that already.
Tomorrow or Tuesday I'll start a new thread about it on this list.

> * How to make the UX experience,  including code sharing the best it 
> can be. Perhaps based around using the blocks editor as a template, 
> since that had to store and share text already. However, this is also 
> very similar to the problem that Code Kingdoms are facing for their 
> work, so there's also alternatives there.
> 

Quite... these are interesting problems.

> As I say does that make any sense?
>

Absolutely. As always, many thanks for your always considered and thoughtful contributions!

:-)

Best wishes,

Nicholas.



From Jonathan.Austin at arm.com  Mon Jul 13 15:32:45 2015
From: Jonathan.Austin at arm.com (Jonathan Austin)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 14:32:45 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BE88@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BE88@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <85B65984-11C6-4B2A-9612-17842CE26101@arm.com>

Hi all,

Sorry to arrive late to this thread... I've been away ignoring email :)

On 10 Jul 2015, at 20:46, Howard Baker-IF&L <howard.baker at bbc.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> Nice thoughts. Interestingly a little while back I suggested to Jonny Austin at ARM
> we use the Freescale chip to help with the BLE issue. He was very against it for
> reasons I couldn?t quite understand. However, if it is accessible it is a tantalising
> option.
>

I'm afraid I still don't think this is a useful approach...

The main reason is that the Freescale chip isn't powered when you're not running from USB,
so it creates quite a complex and confusing 'feature matrix' if you require USB to be plugged
in in order to use BLE ;)

I *do* think that we can use the KL26/Interface chip as a way of giving nice python
flashing experience - IE use the interface chip to write python scripts dropped onto the device
(via USB mass storage) into the the NRF51 flash (either by SWD or serial via micro python)
and then reset the NRF51...

We can start a new thread about this if people are interested - Damian, Nick, David an I have
had some initial discussions and I've poked the mbed interface firmware implementation to see
how it would play out. Looks feasible and fun... Also, who *doesn't* want to dust off
X/Y/Zmodem and stream stuff over serial ;)


> Thanks for all this. A lot of food for thought.

Indeed, I'm just reading and digesting the rest of the thread. :)

J
>
> Howard
>
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Sent: 10 July 2015 15:48
> To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions; j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
>
> Hi Damien,
>
>
> [Massive snip]
>
> That's really useful - and really interesting to read. I think you can guess
> that the pain points are where I thought they might be based on the
> questions, but it's really interesting data.
>
> I think two questions arise generally, and this is pretty much a major long shot.
>
> Two things that the device has in the non-python environments:
>
> 1) - is the ability to reflash the device over the air
> 2) - the ability to use bluetooth from user programs.
>
> (Both of these are as I understand it - my technical involvement technically ceased
> with the end of the schools' trial using the prototype device/software stack, and after
> delivery of detailed baseline reference tech specs.)
>
> My impression from your comments is that we can probably retain the former.
>
> My impression is that the latter would be ... tricky - at best.
>
> Assuming these two impressions are right, that in itself makes me wonder, and I'm
> thinking of a slightly odd option.
>
> For powersaving on the prototype device, we had a 2032 battery which would have
> its effective voltage drop over time from often just over 3V to below 2.6/2.7V dependent
> on current draw (the 32u4's brown out voltage), etc. In the end the power saving solution
> we used was to a) only have 1 LED lit at a time, rapidly cyle through the display in a raster
> fashion, and then b) put the entire device to sleep for a microscopic time period, on a
> watchdog timer, then wake the whole device up, run for a bit, then go back to sleep.
>
> The reason I mention this is for a possibly bonkers option for item 2. In this case, rather
> than our constraint being power, our constraint is RAM. As I say, it is a bit bonkers (since
> it might cause issues for the flash), but would it be possible to save micropython state
> periodically to flash, activate the bluetooth, check for activity, deactivate, and then
> continue.
>
> That or possibly treat the Freescale chip as a co-processor? Run a minimal DAL on the
> Nordic, but run micropython on the freescale? (This is partly inspired by the tricks people
> used to do with things like the C64 disk drives to use the 6502 CPUs in those as
> coprocessors on the system.
>
> (That's a rather big if... and trying to find the right version of the Kinetis MKL26 datasheet
> at the moment.)
>
> I guess what I'm a bit worried about is whether the lack of BLE will make the python version
> be viewed as less awesome than it is, and I'm just pondering possible options.
>
> As a personal position, I personally really want to go down this route because I think as well
> as awesome and clever, I think it's a neat and tidy solution, and without BLE to confuse the
> issue I don't think there would be any questions at all. As a result that's why I'm exploring the
> edges and just looking to see what is in the art of the possible, rather than pre-requisites.
>
> It won't ultimately be my decision at the end of the day though.
>
> Regarding the specific guestimate:
>
> > Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
> > an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
> > number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
> > year.
>
> If it's helpful, the prototype system stored user programs in a git-like fashion.
>
> That is each save created a version on the server pointing back to the earlier
> version, and the "program" pointed at the most recent version.
>
> That means we could get data on how many times a program was editted before
> being viewed as "done" by a child.
>
> Note: I must admit I think reflashing constantly is a bad idea - and my suggestion
> above of treating flash effectively as swap, for obvious reasons, and I suspect I'm
> not alone there -- but just looking at options really.
>
> > just beginning to start to think of the
> > practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)
>
> As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
> think about user experience, and make it very usable.
>
> Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.
>
> Absolutely, just trying to check how this compares to the other dev platforms - what
> you gain is clear, the concern is just what might you lose, and what *could* be done
> to mitigate that.
>
> Many thanks for the detailed feedback,
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Michael.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
> ---------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Mon Jul 13 16:06:01 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:06:01 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <85B65984-11C6-4B2A-9612-17842CE26101@arm.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BE88@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <85B65984-11C6-4B2A-9612-17842CE26101@arm.com>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVCkRHcO7Evf2S1dnFyuB74ijss-sn+4XrWeZoqeWVko0w@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 July 2015 at 14:32, Jonathan Austin <Jonathan.Austin at arm.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Sorry to arrive late to this thread... I've been away ignoring email :)

 ...

I'm afraid I still don't think this is a useful approach...

  ...

The main reason is [ good reasons]



Shame. Was worth a try :-)

We can start a new thread about this if people are interested - Damian,
> Nick, David an I have
> had some initial discussions and I've poked the mbed interface firmware
> implementation to see
> how it would play out. Looks feasible and fun...
>

I'd be interested in this FWIW.


>  Also, who *doesn't* want to dust off
> X/Y/Zmodem and stream stuff over serial ;)
>
>
If we're talking about serial comms, I would be interested in getting the
IOToy code working on the micro:bit... It's not complicated, but does make
working with random tethered devices simple, due to a standard API.

cf: http://github.com/bbc/iotoy

For the original tethering code for the prototype it took (literally, not
figuratively) around 20-30 minutes to get this up and running. For mBed
it'll be more work because the core library assumes arduino (because I've
tended to use arduinos...), but it's quite a simple thing.

(The hard part of the original library was getting it working on devices
*much* smaller than the Micro:bit.)

(The software takes a relatively noddy approach rather deliberately
incidentally, since it's intended to be within the grasp of a 13-15 year
old who wants to make their own devices)

Being able to introspect and treat hardware in the same way as a python
object, either locally or via mDNS - including getting help is kinda fun
and useful :)

I've used this serial API both tethered on USB and over serial bluetooth in
the past and it's worked very nicely to auto-generate a local API and mDNS
advertised REST oriented API. (The resulting high level APIs were similarly
targeted at 13-15 year olds who just want to use devices that provide this
API)

Best Regards,


Michael.
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul 14 11:36:32 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:36:32 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC request
Message-ID: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>

Hi Folks,

A quick heads up on what's been happening.

I saw Howard from the BBC (on this list) yesterday for a couple of
hours. As you may have realised the BBC would like to move forward with
MicroPython on the device and now have to figure out how to make it
happen in a way that complements everything else they're doing.

To this end, Howard expressed legitimate concerns about there not being
a Python presence in the microbit.co.uk TouchDevelop based site. While
it's easy, as engineers, to say, "just use the editor you're used to",
the BBC will be pushing the site and, from out Pythonic perspective,
there's a chance Python will not get the visibility that it ought to as
a result.

As Tom H. pointed out on the Sunday hack-day, it would be good to have a
Python editor that targeted MicroPython.

Howard accepts my point that translating from Python to the TouchDevelop
AST is a lost cause: it's hard, it's not documented, there's no
community interest and we already have MicroPython that, from a Python
perspective, is an obviously superior solution. Interestingly, some
brave souls at CodeKingdoms have managed to reverse engineer the TD AST
and have created a Javascript -> TD AST editor. I've already asked them
if they could share how they got the out-of-date / incomplete
microbit.co.uk based code to work so they had a working dev environment.

In any case, given the expertise in this group I think it'd be
relatively simple to create a *simple* MicroPython editor that could be
embedded in the TouchDevelop site. To be clear, we'd need something like
PythonAnywhere's ATOM based Python editor that sat within an iFrame
within the TouchDevelop site.

We can use use TouchDevelop's postMessage API (viz.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/postMessage?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=DOM%2Fwindow.postMessage)
as demoed in the Blockly example we have access to. This would mean
users can save their code and share it with each other.

Furthermore, instead of a "compile" or "run" button, we can simply
create a "save" button that takes the editor's Python text and downloads
it to the local filesystem so user's merely have to drag it onto the
device. Happily, this can all happen locally via some interesting
hackery with Javascript's Blob object and saveAs function:

$("#btn-save").click(function() {
  var text = $("#python-editor").val();
  var filename = $("#input-filename").val()
  var blob = new Blob([text], {type: "text/plain;charset=utf-8"});
  saveAs(blob, filename+".py");
});

This means we DO NOT have to build any back-end infrastructure to make
this work. We simply have to host the static editor somewhere.

Assuming we can get clear instructions from Microsoft on how to set up a
development environment that actually bloody works, who would be
interested in spending a hack-day in early August to kick this off..?

N.

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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 11:56:21 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:56:21 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
	request
In-Reply-To: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVB=YL3au67sR00OfVsXBt+QoLCSz0LnegGHvz6-FZ5dVA@mail.gmail.com>

For me it's location dependent. I suspect that my preferred location
wouldn't be the same as other people's, but just saying... :)

Otherwise, I'd be interested. (Possibly remotely too - afterall large
screen + video skype -- or similar -- isn't bad)

Regards,


Michael.

On 14 July 2015 at 10:36, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> A quick heads up on what's been happening.
>
> I saw Howard from the BBC (on this list) yesterday for a couple of
> hours. As you may have realised the BBC would like to move forward with
> MicroPython on the device and now have to figure out how to make it
> happen in a way that complements everything else they're doing.
>
> To this end, Howard expressed legitimate concerns about there not being
> a Python presence in the microbit.co.uk TouchDevelop based site. While
> it's easy, as engineers, to say, "just use the editor you're used to",
> the BBC will be pushing the site and, from out Pythonic perspective,
> there's a chance Python will not get the visibility that it ought to as
> a result.
>
> As Tom H. pointed out on the Sunday hack-day, it would be good to have a
> Python editor that targeted MicroPython.
>
> Howard accepts my point that translating from Python to the TouchDevelop
> AST is a lost cause: it's hard, it's not documented, there's no
> community interest and we already have MicroPython that, from a Python
> perspective, is an obviously superior solution. Interestingly, some
> brave souls at CodeKingdoms have managed to reverse engineer the TD AST
> and have created a Javascript -> TD AST editor. I've already asked them
> if they could share how they got the out-of-date / incomplete
> microbit.co.uk based code to work so they had a working dev environment.
>
> In any case, given the expertise in this group I think it'd be
> relatively simple to create a *simple* MicroPython editor that could be
> embedded in the TouchDevelop site. To be clear, we'd need something like
> PythonAnywhere's ATOM based Python editor that sat within an iFrame
> within the TouchDevelop site.
>
> We can use use TouchDevelop's postMessage API (viz.
>
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/postMessage?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=DOM%2Fwindow.postMessage
> )
> as demoed in the Blockly example we have access to. This would mean
> users can save their code and share it with each other.
>
> Furthermore, instead of a "compile" or "run" button, we can simply
> create a "save" button that takes the editor's Python text and downloads
> it to the local filesystem so user's merely have to drag it onto the
> device. Happily, this can all happen locally via some interesting
> hackery with Javascript's Blob object and saveAs function:
>
> $("#btn-save").click(function() {
>   var text = $("#python-editor").val();
>   var filename = $("#input-filename").val()
>   var blob = new Blob([text], {type: "text/plain;charset=utf-8"});
>   saveAs(blob, filename+".py");
> });
>
> This means we DO NOT have to build any back-end infrastructure to make
> this work. We simply have to host the static editor somewhere.
>
> Assuming we can get clear instructions from Microsoft on how to set up a
> development environment that actually bloody works, who would be
> interested in spending a hack-day in early August to kick this off..?
>
> N.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul 14 12:02:27 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:02:27 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
	request
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVB=YL3au67sR00OfVsXBt+QoLCSz0LnegGHvz6-FZ5dVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVB=YL3au67sR00OfVsXBt+QoLCSz0LnegGHvz6-FZ5dVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A4DE33.1030202@ntoll.org>

On 14/07/15 10:56, Michael wrote:
> For me it's location dependent. I suspect that my preferred location
> wouldn't be the same as other people's, but just saying... :)
> 
> Otherwise, I'd be interested. (Possibly remotely too - afterall large
> screen + video skype -- or similar -- isn't bad)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael.
> 

Quite... ;-) I've found https://appear.in/ is quite a lot of fun for
remote working.

My aim would be that by the end of a hack day we'd have a code repos
with comprehensive instructions for a dev environment, work done so far
and a list of tasks to be done next with a dated milestone (end of
August??).

I foresee the actually editor being relatively simple to create and use.
However, I believe we should look at making it as child/teacher friendly
as possible. Carrie Anne has a whole list of features based upon
child/teacher feedback that she wishes IDLE had built in that we could
try to implement.

Finally, the project will be *completely open* so there is absolutely NO
barrier for the wider Python community to get involved. The only issue I
see with this is the rather opaque nature of the mcirobit.co.uk based
code (as mentioned in my first email).

Happy to answer questions!

N.

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From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Jul 14 12:11:37 2015
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:11:37 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
 request
In-Reply-To: <55A4DE33.1030202@ntoll.org>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVB=YL3au67sR00OfVsXBt+QoLCSz0LnegGHvz6-FZ5dVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A4DE33.1030202@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A4E059.1050609@timgolden.me.uk>

On 14/07/2015 11:02, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> Quite... ;-) I've found https://appear.in/ is quite a lot of fun for
> remote working.

Didn't know about that; interesting

> 
> My aim would be that by the end of a hack day we'd have a code repos
> with comprehensive instructions for a dev environment, work done so far
> and a list of tasks to be done next with a dated milestone (end of
> August??).
> 
> I foresee the actually editor being relatively simple to create and use.
> However, I believe we should look at making it as child/teacher friendly
> as possible. Carrie Anne has a whole list of features based upon
> child/teacher feedback that she wishes IDLE had built in that we could
> try to implement.
> 
> Finally, the project will be *completely open* so there is absolutely NO
> barrier for the wider Python community to get involved. The only issue I
> see with this is the rather opaque nature of the mcirobit.co.uk based
> code (as mentioned in my first email).

All sounds very good to me.

I'm away (in Cheshire) in August and somewhat off the grid -- I'm doing
a course in a place with woeful internet connectivity :) But I'd like to
stay involved. If it turns out I can collaborate remotely, I'd be happy
to try. (It may be possible for me to go into Manchester or somewhere
and work from there for a day).

TJG

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul 14 12:13:13 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:13:13 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
	request
In-Reply-To: <55A4E059.1050609@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVB=YL3au67sR00OfVsXBt+QoLCSz0LnegGHvz6-FZ5dVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A4DE33.1030202@ntoll.org> <55A4E059.1050609@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <55A4E0B9.60404@ntoll.org>

On 14/07/15 11:11, Tim Golden wrote:
> I'm away (in Cheshire) in August and somewhat off the grid -- I'm doing
> a course in a place with woeful internet connectivity :) But I'd like to
> stay involved. If it turns out I can collaborate remotely, I'd be happy
> to try. (It may be possible for me to go into Manchester or somewhere
> and work from there for a day).
> 

It turns out that's exactly where Michael is based! Perhaps you could
meet up..? ;-)

N.


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Jul 14 12:16:31 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:16:31 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
	request
In-Reply-To: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A4E17F.6060501@ntoll.org>

Just a thought... since many of us will be at Europython next week,
perhaps we could get together for a MicroBit BoF and see what happens..?

N.

On 14/07/15 10:36, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> A quick heads up on what's been happening.
> 
> I saw Howard from the BBC (on this list) yesterday for a couple of
> hours. As you may have realised the BBC would like to move forward with
> MicroPython on the device and now have to figure out how to make it
> happen in a way that complements everything else they're doing.
> 
> To this end, Howard expressed legitimate concerns about there not being
> a Python presence in the microbit.co.uk TouchDevelop based site. While
> it's easy, as engineers, to say, "just use the editor you're used to",
> the BBC will be pushing the site and, from out Pythonic perspective,
> there's a chance Python will not get the visibility that it ought to as
> a result.
> 
> As Tom H. pointed out on the Sunday hack-day, it would be good to have a
> Python editor that targeted MicroPython.
> 
> Howard accepts my point that translating from Python to the TouchDevelop
> AST is a lost cause: it's hard, it's not documented, there's no
> community interest and we already have MicroPython that, from a Python
> perspective, is an obviously superior solution. Interestingly, some
> brave souls at CodeKingdoms have managed to reverse engineer the TD AST
> and have created a Javascript -> TD AST editor. I've already asked them
> if they could share how they got the out-of-date / incomplete
> microbit.co.uk based code to work so they had a working dev environment.
> 
> In any case, given the expertise in this group I think it'd be
> relatively simple to create a *simple* MicroPython editor that could be
> embedded in the TouchDevelop site. To be clear, we'd need something like
> PythonAnywhere's ATOM based Python editor that sat within an iFrame
> within the TouchDevelop site.
> 
> We can use use TouchDevelop's postMessage API (viz.
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/postMessage?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=DOM%2Fwindow.postMessage)
> as demoed in the Blockly example we have access to. This would mean
> users can save their code and share it with each other.
> 
> Furthermore, instead of a "compile" or "run" button, we can simply
> create a "save" button that takes the editor's Python text and downloads
> it to the local filesystem so user's merely have to drag it onto the
> device. Happily, this can all happen locally via some interesting
> hackery with Javascript's Blob object and saveAs function:
> 
> $("#btn-save").click(function() {
>   var text = $("#python-editor").val();
>   var filename = $("#input-filename").val()
>   var blob = new Blob([text], {type: "text/plain;charset=utf-8"});
>   saveAs(blob, filename+".py");
> });
> 
> This means we DO NOT have to build any back-end infrastructure to make
> this work. We simply have to host the static editor somewhere.
> 
> Assuming we can get clear instructions from Microsoft on how to set up a
> development environment that actually bloody works, who would be
> interested in spending a hack-day in early August to kick this off..?
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 12:40:44 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:40:44 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
	request
In-Reply-To: <55A4E17F.6060501@ntoll.org>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
	<55A4E17F.6060501@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVDmcape-AstLQkf9ePyAANcXF8KfCn9PpYSffMjrCkrnw@mail.gmail.com>

Would love to say yes, but I'm not at Europython (wouldn't afford a holiday
with family otherwise), would be interested in hearing any outcome though
:-)

Regards,


Michael.

On 14 July 2015 at 11:16, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Just a thought... since many of us will be at Europython next week,
> perhaps we could get together for a MicroBit BoF and see what happens..?
>
> N.
>
> On 14/07/15 10:36, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > A quick heads up on what's been happening.
> >
> > I saw Howard from the BBC (on this list) yesterday for a couple of
> > hours. As you may have realised the BBC would like to move forward with
> > MicroPython on the device and now have to figure out how to make it
> > happen in a way that complements everything else they're doing.
> >
> > To this end, Howard expressed legitimate concerns about there not being
> > a Python presence in the microbit.co.uk TouchDevelop based site. While
> > it's easy, as engineers, to say, "just use the editor you're used to",
> > the BBC will be pushing the site and, from out Pythonic perspective,
> > there's a chance Python will not get the visibility that it ought to as
> > a result.
> >
> > As Tom H. pointed out on the Sunday hack-day, it would be good to have a
> > Python editor that targeted MicroPython.
> >
> > Howard accepts my point that translating from Python to the TouchDevelop
> > AST is a lost cause: it's hard, it's not documented, there's no
> > community interest and we already have MicroPython that, from a Python
> > perspective, is an obviously superior solution. Interestingly, some
> > brave souls at CodeKingdoms have managed to reverse engineer the TD AST
> > and have created a Javascript -> TD AST editor. I've already asked them
> > if they could share how they got the out-of-date / incomplete
> > microbit.co.uk based code to work so they had a working dev environment.
> >
> > In any case, given the expertise in this group I think it'd be
> > relatively simple to create a *simple* MicroPython editor that could be
> > embedded in the TouchDevelop site. To be clear, we'd need something like
> > PythonAnywhere's ATOM based Python editor that sat within an iFrame
> > within the TouchDevelop site.
> >
> > We can use use TouchDevelop's postMessage API (viz.
> >
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/postMessage?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=DOM%2Fwindow.postMessage
> )
> > as demoed in the Blockly example we have access to. This would mean
> > users can save their code and share it with each other.
> >
> > Furthermore, instead of a "compile" or "run" button, we can simply
> > create a "save" button that takes the editor's Python text and downloads
> > it to the local filesystem so user's merely have to drag it onto the
> > device. Happily, this can all happen locally via some interesting
> > hackery with Javascript's Blob object and saveAs function:
> >
> > $("#btn-save").click(function() {
> >   var text = $("#python-editor").val();
> >   var filename = $("#input-filename").val()
> >   var blob = new Blob([text], {type: "text/plain;charset=utf-8"});
> >   saveAs(blob, filename+".py");
> > });
> >
> > This means we DO NOT have to build any back-end infrastructure to make
> > this work. We simply have to host the static editor somewhere.
> >
> > Assuming we can get clear instructions from Microsoft on how to set up a
> > development environment that actually bloody works, who would be
> > interested in spending a hack-day in early August to kick this off..?
> >
> > N.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Microbit mailing list
> > Microbit at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 12:42:56 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:42:56 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
	request
In-Reply-To: <55A4E0B9.60404@ntoll.org>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVB=YL3au67sR00OfVsXBt+QoLCSz0LnegGHvz6-FZ5dVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A4DE33.1030202@ntoll.org> <55A4E059.1050609@timgolden.me.uk>
 <55A4E0B9.60404@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVAtMak=HApoU6zCRq6WGLdOTW12eVzX-9oTUHO2AuZ_gw@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 July 2015 at 11:13, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 14/07/15 11:11, Tim Golden wrote:
> > I'm away (in Cheshire) in August and somewhat off the grid -- I'm doing
> > a course in a place with woeful internet connectivity :) But I'd like to
> > stay involved. If it turns out I can collaborate remotely, I'd be happy
> > to try. (It may be possible for me to go into Manchester or somewhere
> > and work from there for a day).
> >
>
> It turns out that's exactly where Michael is based! Perhaps you could
> meet up..? ;-)
>

Exactly what I was thinking. We could always use BBC space here. (Never
had to arrange something at the weekend before, but it shouldn't be any
harder than during the week)


Michael.
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From giles at pythonanywhere.com  Tue Jul 14 13:40:02 2015
From: giles at pythonanywhere.com (Giles Thomas)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 12:40:02 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython / web based code editor / BBC
	request
In-Reply-To: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
References: <55A4D820.90308@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A4F512.3030807@pythonanywhere.com>

On 14/07/15 10:36, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> Assuming we can get clear instructions from Microsoft on how to set up a
> development environment that actually bloody works, who would be
> interested in spending a hack-day in early August to kick this off..?

I'm up for it, sure.


All the best,

Giles

-- 
Giles Thomas <giles at pythonanywhere.com>

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul 14 17:41:05 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 15:41:05 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
In-Reply-To: <85B65984-11C6-4B2A-9612-17842CE26101@arm.com>
References: <559BA751.40905@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StH+paDc18PawvhVcAoCW0PiQPP2jsSCqxjn7_g12vEGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <559BD835.1080002@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_StA1OtuK0qJYbdWu1am2PLSvn06LdiiAk7nngSJKc8d5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mz=VGSPoN9AKuSOayncXNLVFjVQ7_Vz=nujBhJzNdp6_8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVCcjirfKVh_DxGjnrQRmwimmhoo1XB0UCr=6uU8BimR0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANw+Mzn-ceV41DD-M_DfT46f-qN33=miE26F6Y=ZOpNW2m5y+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVBscX2YR9EXsHK2XrJzOTE30HRHW3BGYPMr2ROWJOiM7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938BE88@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <85B65984-11C6-4B2A-9612-17842CE26101@arm.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938CB2B@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Thanks Jonny. I think we'd be keen to take up your offer.

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Austin
Sent: 13 July 2015 14:33
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media

Hi all,

Sorry to arrive late to this thread... I've been away ignoring email :)

On 10 Jul 2015, at 20:46, Howard Baker-IF&L <howard.baker at bbc.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> Nice thoughts. Interestingly a little while back I suggested to Jonny Austin at ARM
> we use the Freescale chip to help with the BLE issue. He was very against it for
> reasons I couldn't quite understand. However, if it is accessible it is a tantalising
> option.
>

I'm afraid I still don't think this is a useful approach...

The main reason is that the Freescale chip isn't powered when you're not running from USB,
so it creates quite a complex and confusing 'feature matrix' if you require USB to be plugged
in in order to use BLE ;)

I *do* think that we can use the KL26/Interface chip as a way of giving nice python
flashing experience - IE use the interface chip to write python scripts dropped onto the device
(via USB mass storage) into the the NRF51 flash (either by SWD or serial via micro python)
and then reset the NRF51...

We can start a new thread about this if people are interested - Damian, Nick, David an I have
had some initial discussions and I've poked the mbed interface firmware implementation to see
how it would play out. Looks feasible and fun... Also, who *doesn't* want to dust off
X/Y/Zmodem and stream stuff over serial ;)


> Thanks for all this. A lot of food for thought.

Indeed, I'm just reading and digesting the rest of the thread. :)

J
>
> Howard
>
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Sent: 10 July 2015 15:48
> To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions; j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] The BBC reveal the device to the media
>
> Hi Damien,
>
>
> [Massive snip]
>
> That's really useful - and really interesting to read. I think you can guess
> that the pain points are where I thought they might be based on the
> questions, but it's really interesting data.
>
> I think two questions arise generally, and this is pretty much a major long shot.
>
> Two things that the device has in the non-python environments:
>
> 1) - is the ability to reflash the device over the air
> 2) - the ability to use bluetooth from user programs.
>
> (Both of these are as I understand it - my technical involvement technically ceased
> with the end of the schools' trial using the prototype device/software stack, and after
> delivery of detailed baseline reference tech specs.)
>
> My impression from your comments is that we can probably retain the former.
>
> My impression is that the latter would be ... tricky - at best.
>
> Assuming these two impressions are right, that in itself makes me wonder, and I'm
> thinking of a slightly odd option.
>
> For powersaving on the prototype device, we had a 2032 battery which would have
> its effective voltage drop over time from often just over 3V to below 2.6/2.7V dependent
> on current draw (the 32u4's brown out voltage), etc. In the end the power saving solution
> we used was to a) only have 1 LED lit at a time, rapidly cyle through the display in a raster
> fashion, and then b) put the entire device to sleep for a microscopic time period, on a
> watchdog timer, then wake the whole device up, run for a bit, then go back to sleep.
>
> The reason I mention this is for a possibly bonkers option for item 2. In this case, rather
> than our constraint being power, our constraint is RAM. As I say, it is a bit bonkers (since
> it might cause issues for the flash), but would it be possible to save micropython state
> periodically to flash, activate the bluetooth, check for activity, deactivate, and then
> continue.
>
> That or possibly treat the Freescale chip as a co-processor? Run a minimal DAL on the
> Nordic, but run micropython on the freescale? (This is partly inspired by the tricks people
> used to do with things like the C64 disk drives to use the 6502 CPUs in those as
> coprocessors on the system.
>
> (That's a rather big if... and trying to find the right version of the Kinetis MKL26 datasheet
> at the moment.)
>
> I guess what I'm a bit worried about is whether the lack of BLE will make the python version
> be viewed as less awesome than it is, and I'm just pondering possible options.
>
> As a personal position, I personally really want to go down this route because I think as well
> as awesome and clever, I think it's a neat and tidy solution, and without BLE to confuse the
> issue I don't think there would be any questions at all. As a result that's why I'm exploring the
> edges and just looking to see what is in the art of the possible, rather than pre-requisites.
>
> It won't ultimately be my decision at the end of the day though.
>
> Regarding the specific guestimate:
>
> > Note: I don't know what the life span of the flash is, but it might be
> > an issue if users reflash many times per day.  10k life span for
> > number of rewrites is typical, and that gives 27 erases per day for 1
> > year.
>
> If it's helpful, the prototype system stored user programs in a git-like fashion.
>
> That is each save created a version on the server pointing back to the earlier
> version, and the "program" pointed at the most recent version.
>
> That means we could get data on how many times a program was editted before
> being viewed as "done" by a child.
>
> Note: I must admit I think reflashing constantly is a bad idea - and my suggestion
> above of treating flash effectively as swap, for obvious reasons, and I suspect I'm
> not alone there -- but just looking at options really.
>
> > just beginning to start to think of the
> > practicality questions that may affect user experience. :-)
>
> As I pointed out in a previous message, now that the core works we can
> think about user experience, and make it very usable.
>
> Of course, this all hinges on the BBC supporting this endeavour.
>
> Absolutely, just trying to check how this compares to the other dev platforms - what
> you gain is clear, the concern is just what might you lose, and what *could* be done
> to mitigate that.
>
> Many thanks for the detailed feedback,
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Michael.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
> ---------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

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From damien.p.george at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 23:49:57 2015
From: damien.p.george at gmail.com (Damien George)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 22:49:57 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
Message-ID: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Here is a list of tasks for getting MicroPython running on the
micro:bit to the degree that it can be used by the students.

1. The front end.  At a minimum this will be a simple Python editor
embedded within the web browser.  Nicholas has already started a
discussion on this.

2. Defining a Python API to use the features of the microbit.  Likely
this is a module (eg "import microbit") that has
classes/objects/functions that expose various features of the device.
The design should be Pythonic, simple for studets, and match closely
the C++ DAL and the TouchDevelop interface.

3. Implement remaining features on the device (eg I2C bus support,
GPIO) and expose them using the API designed in point 2 above.

4. Try to get BLE working with MicroPython!  This will be experimental
work, and can be parallel to the above.

I think point 2 (defining the API) is something that would benefit
from input from many people, so please chime in if you have anything
to say about this.  Points 3 and 4 are "just" coding.

Cheers,
Damien.

From sparks.m at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 01:00:44 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 00:00:44 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding 2), if we want a private wiki, or private github repo to discuss
this, happy to set one up.


The key thing I found with the DAL in the prototype was that by
deliberately having one API, it was simpler to track changes. In the case
of students, if the API matches relatively closely the C++, Javascript,
Blocks and Touch Develop API, then it allows students to bring their
understanding with them.

I'd argue that this "bringing their knowledge with them" as a principle
outweighs anything "pythonic". (I've often seen the term pythonic abused to
mean "I don't like that" or "I like that")  I'm not saying "Pythonic" is
bad, but rather I'm a big fan of the "practicality over purity" idea :)

Other than that though agree with your principles.

For this to happen though, those on this list need access to the DAL as it
stands today. I know this isn't for you to resolve. I don't know if this
has happened yet - it doesn't look like it. Without this, we can't do
anything.

I do know that if I go to https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras with the
github id I use at home (sparkslabs) that I get a 404 not found - which is
what github shows you when you try to access a private repo that you don't
have access to.

cc'ing Joe, since if we haven't he could provide us with a snapshot to work
from. As I say, without this, we're shooting blind.

Beyond that practicality point the one thing I would say is that when I've
used APIs which are python versions of C++ APIs, the closer they are, the
better. (Not because they're pythonic, but because you're dealing with
something that doesn't create an extra layer of hidden bugs :-) )

Regards,


Michael

On 14 July 2015 at 22:49, Damien George <damien.p.george at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Here is a list of tasks for getting MicroPython running on the
> micro:bit to the degree that it can be used by the students.
>
> 1. The front end.  At a minimum this will be a simple Python editor
> embedded within the web browser.  Nicholas has already started a
> discussion on this.
>
> 2. Defining a Python API to use the features of the microbit.  Likely
> this is a module (eg "import microbit") that has
> classes/objects/functions that expose various features of the device.
> The design should be Pythonic, simple for studets, and match closely
> the C++ DAL and the TouchDevelop interface.
>
> 3. Implement remaining features on the device (eg I2C bus support,
> GPIO) and expose them using the API designed in point 2 above.
>
> 4. Try to get BLE working with MicroPython!  This will be experimental
> work, and can be parallel to the above.
>
> I think point 2 (defining the API) is something that would benefit
> from input from many people, so please chime in if you have anything
> to say about this.  Points 3 and 4 are "just" coding.
>
> Cheers,
> Damien.
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
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From j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk  Wed Jul 15 01:26:52 2015
From: j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk (Finney, Joe)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 23:26:52 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>

Folks,

Happy to help contribute where I can.  ?

Agree that providing some consistency of experience across languages would be good. i.e. the Pythonic interface should feel as familiar as possible to the kids? experiences from other languages. This can only help. I can?t see any issues in taking pragmatic decisions where appropriate though. It?s the principles that matter. I think Michael?s comments re: the DAL in the research prototype still ring true ? a bit of consistency benefits all.

I?d happily share a snapshot with you guys, but do need the nod from the BBC here, else I risk being in breach of contract?

How many folks have we got on this list?

Joe


From: Michael [mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com]
Sent: 15 July 2015 00:01
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions; Finney, Joe
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Regarding 2), if we want a private wiki, or private github repo to discuss this, happy to set one up.


The key thing I found with the DAL in the prototype was that by deliberately having one API, it was simpler to track changes. In the case of students, if the API matches relatively closely the C++, Javascript, Blocks and Touch Develop API, then it allows students to bring their understanding with them.

I'd argue that this "bringing their knowledge with them" as a principle outweighs anything "pythonic". (I've often seen the term pythonic abused to mean "I don't like that" or "I like that")  I'm not saying "Pythonic" is bad, but rather I'm a big fan of the "practicality over purity" idea :)

Other than that though agree with your principles.

For this to happen though, those on this list need access to the DAL as it stands today. I know this isn't for you to resolve. I don't know if this has happened yet - it doesn't look like it. Without this, we can't do anything.

I do know that if I go to https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras with the github id I use at home (sparkslabs) that I get a 404 not found - which is what github shows you when you try to access a private repo that you don't have access to.

cc'ing Joe, since if we haven't he could provide us with a snapshot to work from. As I say, without this, we're shooting blind.

Beyond that practicality point the one thing I would say is that when I've used APIs which are python versions of C++ APIs, the closer they are, the better. (Not because they're pythonic, but because you're dealing with something that doesn't create an extra layer of hidden bugs :-) )

Regards,


Michael

On 14 July 2015 at 22:49, Damien George <damien.p.george at gmail.com<mailto:damien.p.george at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

Here is a list of tasks for getting MicroPython running on the
micro:bit to the degree that it can be used by the students.

1. The front end.  At a minimum this will be a simple Python editor
embedded within the web browser.  Nicholas has already started a
discussion on this.

2. Defining a Python API to use the features of the microbit.  Likely
this is a module (eg "import microbit") that has
classes/objects/functions that expose various features of the device.
The design should be Pythonic, simple for studets, and match closely
the C++ DAL and the TouchDevelop interface.

3. Implement remaining features on the device (eg I2C bus support,
GPIO) and expose them using the API designed in point 2 above.

4. Try to get BLE working with MicroPython!  This will be experimental
work, and can be parallel to the above.

I think point 2 (defining the API) is something that would benefit
from input from many people, so please chime in if you have anything
to say about this.  Points 3 and 4 are "just" coding.

Cheers,
Damien.
_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul 15 11:06:36 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:06:36 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>

Hi,

Everyone on this list has signed the BBC's NDA. Off the top of my head,
there are around 15 of us on the list. However, I'd like to make this
list public sometime soon once I've taken appropriate steps to ensure
our "private" history is appropriately audited and those involved are
happy for it to be public (or not).

Howard tells me that things will be open-sourced. I'd like this to
happen ASAP. It's a major hurdle in getting the Python community on
board. I mentioned this to him when we met on Monday.

Howard is on this list and may want to clarify things. A *REALLY* big
win given the conversation so far would be if the DAL was freely
available under an appropriately liberal license.

Howard..?

N.

On 15/07/15 00:26, Finney, Joe wrote:
> Folks,
> 
>  
> 
> Happy to help contribute where I can.  J
> 
>  
> 
> Agree that providing some consistency of experience across languages
> would be good. i.e. the Pythonic interface should feel as familiar as
> possible to the kids? experiences from other languages. This can only
> help. I can?t see any issues in taking pragmatic decisions where
> appropriate though. It?s the principles that matter. I think Michael?s
> comments re: the DAL in the research prototype still ring true ? a bit
> of consistency benefits all.
> 
>  
> 
> I?d happily share a snapshot with you guys, but do need the nod from the
> BBC here, else I risk being in breach of contract?
> 
>  
> 
> How many folks have we got on this list?
> 
>  
> 
> Joe
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*Michael [mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 15 July 2015 00:01
> *To:* For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions; Finney, Joe
> *Subject:* Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
> 
>  
> 
> Regarding 2), if we want a private wiki, or private github repo to
> discuss this, happy to set one up.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> The key thing I found with the DAL in the prototype was that by
> deliberately having one API, it was simpler to track changes. In the
> case of students, if the API matches relatively closely the C++,
> Javascript, Blocks and Touch Develop API, then it allows students to
> bring their understanding with them.
> 
>  
> 
> I'd argue that this "bringing their knowledge with them" as a principle
> outweighs anything "pythonic". (I've often seen the term pythonic abused
> to mean "I don't like that" or "I like that")  I'm not saying "Pythonic"
> is bad, but rather I'm a big fan of the "practicality over purity" idea :)
> 
>  
> 
> Other than that though agree with your principles. 
> 
>  
> 
> For this to happen though, those on this list need access to the DAL as
> it stands today. I know this isn't for you to resolve. I don't know if
> this has happened yet - it doesn't look like it. Without this, we can't
> do anything.
> 
>  
> 
> I do know that if I go to https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras with
> the github id I use at home (sparkslabs) that I get a 404 not found -
> which is what github shows you when you try to access a private repo
> that you don't have access to.
> 
> 
> cc'ing Joe, since if we haven't he could provide us with a snapshot to
> work from. As I say, without this, we're shooting blind.
> 
>  
> 
> Beyond that practicality point the one thing I would say is that when
> I've used APIs which are python versions of C++ APIs, the closer they
> are, the better. (Not because they're pythonic, but because you're
> dealing with something that doesn't create an extra layer of hidden bugs
> :-) )
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Michael
> 
>  
> 
> On 14 July 2015 at 22:49, Damien George <damien.p.george at gmail.com
> <mailto:damien.p.george at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Here is a list of tasks for getting MicroPython running on the
> micro:bit to the degree that it can be used by the students.
> 
> 1. The front end.  At a minimum this will be a simple Python editor
> embedded within the web browser.  Nicholas has already started a
> discussion on this.
> 
> 2. Defining a Python API to use the features of the microbit.  Likely
> this is a module (eg "import microbit") that has
> classes/objects/functions that expose various features of the device.
> The design should be Pythonic, simple for studets, and match closely
> the C++ DAL and the TouchDevelop interface.
> 
> 3. Implement remaining features on the device (eg I2C bus support,
> GPIO) and expose them using the API designed in point 2 above.
> 
> 4. Try to get BLE working with MicroPython!  This will be experimental
> work, and can be parallel to the above.
> 
> I think point 2 (defining the API) is something that would benefit
> from input from many people, so please chime in if you have anything
> to say about this.  Points 3 and 4 are "just" coding.
> 
> Cheers,
> Damien.
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk  Wed Jul 15 11:19:02 2015
From: j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk (Finney, Joe)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:19:02 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>

Cool. If everyone on the list is under NDA then I think we're fine to crack on. Where do you guys want the snapshot to be? We're currently on the mbed mercurial repo, so we could either:

- get the current working team added to the permissions list for that
- take a snapshot and push onto a different secure repo

The former is simpler, and you can keep an eye on the runtime code as we develop it, but might not suit your normal dev environments. The latter would mean you're just taking on a snapshot, so the Python and C++ based codebases will diverge very quickly. Someone would also have to take responsibility for hosting that repo securely until launch. Thoughts?

The DAL (runtime) will be made open source at launch along with the other micro:bit resources. I can really understand your wish to open it up beforehand so we can embrace the wider python community, but I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC (and maybe others).

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+j.finney=lancaster.ac.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 15 July 2015 10:07
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Hi,

Everyone on this list has signed the BBC's NDA. Off the top of my head, there are around 15 of us on the list. However, I'd like to make this list public sometime soon once I've taken appropriate steps to ensure our "private" history is appropriately audited and those involved are happy for it to be public (or not).

Howard tells me that things will be open-sourced. I'd like this to happen ASAP. It's a major hurdle in getting the Python community on board. I mentioned this to him when we met on Monday.

Howard is on this list and may want to clarify things. A *REALLY* big win given the conversation so far would be if the DAL was freely available under an appropriately liberal license.

Howard..?

N.

On 15/07/15 00:26, Finney, Joe wrote:
> Folks,
> 
>  
> 
> Happy to help contribute where I can.  J
> 
>  
> 
> Agree that providing some consistency of experience across languages 
> would be good. i.e. the Pythonic interface should feel as familiar as 
> possible to the kids' experiences from other languages. This can only 
> help. I can't see any issues in taking pragmatic decisions where 
> appropriate though. It's the principles that matter. I think Michael's 
> comments re: the DAL in the research prototype still ring true - a bit 
> of consistency benefits all.
> 
>  
> 
> I'd happily share a snapshot with you guys, but do need the nod from 
> the BBC here, else I risk being in breach of contract...
> 
>  
> 
> How many folks have we got on this list?
> 
>  
> 
> Joe
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*Michael [mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 15 July 2015 00:01
> *To:* For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions; Finney, Joe
> *Subject:* Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
> 
>  
> 
> Regarding 2), if we want a private wiki, or private github repo to 
> discuss this, happy to set one up.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> The key thing I found with the DAL in the prototype was that by 
> deliberately having one API, it was simpler to track changes. In the 
> case of students, if the API matches relatively closely the C++, 
> Javascript, Blocks and Touch Develop API, then it allows students to 
> bring their understanding with them.
> 
>  
> 
> I'd argue that this "bringing their knowledge with them" as a 
> principle outweighs anything "pythonic". (I've often seen the term 
> pythonic abused to mean "I don't like that" or "I like that")  I'm not saying "Pythonic"
> is bad, but rather I'm a big fan of the "practicality over purity" 
> idea :)
> 
>  
> 
> Other than that though agree with your principles. 
> 
>  
> 
> For this to happen though, those on this list need access to the DAL 
> as it stands today. I know this isn't for you to resolve. I don't know 
> if this has happened yet - it doesn't look like it. Without this, we 
> can't do anything.
> 
>  
> 
> I do know that if I go to https://github.com/bbc/microbit-extras with 
> the github id I use at home (sparkslabs) that I get a 404 not found - 
> which is what github shows you when you try to access a private repo 
> that you don't have access to.
> 
> 
> cc'ing Joe, since if we haven't he could provide us with a snapshot to 
> work from. As I say, without this, we're shooting blind.
> 
>  
> 
> Beyond that practicality point the one thing I would say is that when 
> I've used APIs which are python versions of C++ APIs, the closer they 
> are, the better. (Not because they're pythonic, but because you're 
> dealing with something that doesn't create an extra layer of hidden 
> bugs
> :-) )
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Michael
> 
>  
> 
> On 14 July 2015 at 22:49, Damien George <damien.p.george at gmail.com 
> <mailto:damien.p.george at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Here is a list of tasks for getting MicroPython running on the 
> micro:bit to the degree that it can be used by the students.
> 
> 1. The front end.  At a minimum this will be a simple Python editor 
> embedded within the web browser.  Nicholas has already started a 
> discussion on this.
> 
> 2. Defining a Python API to use the features of the microbit.  Likely 
> this is a module (eg "import microbit") that has 
> classes/objects/functions that expose various features of the device.
> The design should be Pythonic, simple for studets, and match closely 
> the C++ DAL and the TouchDevelop interface.
> 
> 3. Implement remaining features on the device (eg I2C bus support,
> GPIO) and expose them using the API designed in point 2 above.
> 
> 4. Try to get BLE working with MicroPython!  This will be experimental 
> work, and can be parallel to the above.
> 
> I think point 2 (defining the API) is something that would benefit 
> from input from many people, so please chime in if you have anything 
> to say about this.  Points 3 and 4 are "just" coding.
> 
> Cheers,
> Damien.
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org> 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 



From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul 15 11:22:44 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:22:44 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>

On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
> I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
> contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
> (and maybe others).
>

Hi Joe,

That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
sometime in August.

N.


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 12:38:55 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:38:55 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Nick,

On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
> > I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
> > contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
> > (and maybe others).
> >
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
> the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
> sometime in August.



Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with the
consequence of not happening being dire.


In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a quicker
action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation generally
speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a single individual -
though are often *driven* by a one or more people.


Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible steps:

1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-) ) since
without this, this group cannot move forward. The preference here IMO
should be:
    - get the current working team added to the permissions list for [the mbed
mercurial repo]

Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and vital.


2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL ASAP -
**in the early august time frame** noted above.
ie everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the
micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I think this
is necessary to the creation of a *successful* micropython runtime for the
micro:bit.


3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time frame**. This
would IMO be extremely useful since it would help keep "2") on track,
otherwise it requires those with access to 1) to moderate and gatekeep
changes closer - which is an overhead.


My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan for release
as open source anyway is that it will be through a non-profit company - and
I suspect that it would be disruptive for that. Or at least licensing under
the name micro:bit will be. (ala the way the arduino name is, but not the
hardware/software - which is open)


My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that 2)
would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the timescale that you
need.


My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of "why are
you asking for me to say "no" " :-)


As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier will be
simple answers to this;

For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:

  - It can't work otherwise
  - Necessary and vital,
  - Necessary
  - Extremely useful.

And the consequence of it not happening.

I'd say:

1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without this
2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality will suffer
without this
3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause 2) to drift badly from 1)
without this, resulting problems in schools

The more people who state their position, the better, the point being to
help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter option to occur", to
which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)

It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been up for
release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to be such quick
universal agreement). However, often the most common timeline I've heard
has been November, so this would be a change that needs justification. To
those on this list, I suspect the reasons are obvious.

It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)

Regards,


Michael
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul 15 12:49:16 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:16 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>

Michael,

I've explained to Howard and Fiona on several occasions that the Python
community are only going to engage if they're unencumbered by NDAs etc...

In fact, in the PSF's original proposal I stated that our modus operandi
would be to work in the open.

We're being set up to fail if this code isn't opened to the wider
community asap.

Some speedy positive movement on this front is essential.

I think both steps 1 and 2 that you list are essential for the continued
success of MicroPython on micro:bit project. Releasing the code for the
website would also make development of the Python editor a *lot* easier.

We also need devices for developers to play with.

Time is something we don't have a lot of. We need to move quickly on this.

N.

On 15/07/15 11:38, Michael wrote:
> Hi Nick,
> 
> On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org
> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
> 
>     On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
>     > I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
>     > contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
>     > (and maybe others).
>     >
> 
>     Hi Joe,
> 
>     That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
>     the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
>     sometime in August.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with the
> consequence of not happening being dire.
> 
> 
> In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a
> quicker action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation
> generally speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a single
> individual - though are often *driven* by a one or more people.
> 
> 
> Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible steps:
> 
> 1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-) )
> since without this, this group cannot move forward. The preference here
> IMO should be:
>     - get the current working team added to the permissions list for
> [the mbed mercurial repo]
> 
> Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and vital.
> 
> 
> 2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL ASAP -
> **in the early august time frame** noted above. 
> ie everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the
> micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I think
> this is necessary to the creation of a *successful* micropython runtime
> for the micro:bit.
> 
> 
> 3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time frame**.
> This would IMO be extremely useful since it would help keep "2") on
> track, otherwise it requires those with access to 1) to moderate and
> gatekeep changes closer - which is an overhead.
> 
> 
> My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan for
> release as open source anyway is that it will be through a non-profit
> company - and I suspect that it would be disruptive for that. Or at
> least licensing under the name micro:bit will be. (ala the way the
> arduino name is, but not the hardware/software - which is open) 
> 
> 
> My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that 2)
> would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the timescale that
> you need.
> 
> 
> My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of "why are
> you asking for me to say "no" " :-)
> 
> 
> As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier will
> be simple answers to this;
> 
> For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:
> 
>   - It can't work otherwise
>   - Necessary and vital,
>   - Necessary
>   - Extremely useful.
> 
> And the consequence of it not happening.
> 
> I'd say:
> 
> 1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without this
> 2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality will suffer
> without this
> 3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause 2) to drift badly from 1)
> without this, resulting problems in schools
> 
> The more people who state their position, the better, the point being to
> help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter option to occur",
> to which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)
> 
> It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been up
> for release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to be such
> quick universal agreement). However, often the most common timeline I've
> heard has been November, so this would be a change that needs
> justification. To those on this list, I suspect the reasons are obvious.
> 
> It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul 15 12:52:08 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:52:08 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of microbit's
	TouchDevelop
Message-ID: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>

Hi Folks,

I spent an hour or so this morning trying to crack the "set up the dev
environment" nut for the Python editor in TouchDevelop.

Turns out that the instructions from Microsoft are a tad incomplete,
we'd taken a few missteps but I've figured out the problems and I'm
looking at a locally running version of the site.

Yay.

I'll re-trace my steps, write them down and stick 'em in a README which
can form the start of a Python in TD editor that targets MicroPython.
It'd be good if people can check these steps on Windows and Mac (I'm on
Linux) to ensure we have the minimum amount of hassle needed to set
things up for new developers.

I'd like all our editor development to be free and public. Still
awaiting Howard's ruminations on this.

N.

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From j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk  Wed Jul 15 13:27:58 2015
From: j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk (Finney, Joe)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:27:58 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC036A@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>

Let?s separate action from politics as much as possible here. We can do (1) NOW, so let?s do that and drive the rest as we go.

So here?s the call to arms to anyone who is already under NDA and wants access to the micro:bit runtime (DAL) library :


-          Go to https://developer.mbed.org/

-          Create an account.

-          E-mail me with your name and mbed username.

-          I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).

Joe

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+j.finney=lancaster.ac.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: 15 July 2015 11:39
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Hi Nick,

On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
> I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
> contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
> (and maybe others).
>

Hi Joe,

That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
sometime in August.


Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with the consequence of not happening being dire.


In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a quicker action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation generally speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a single individual - though are often *driven* by a one or more people.


Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible steps:

1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-) ) since without this, this group cannot move forward. The preference here IMO should be:
    - get the current working team added to the permissions list for [the mbed mercurial repo]

Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and vital.


2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL ASAP - **in the early august time frame** noted above.
ie everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I think this is necessary to the creation of a *successful* micropython runtime for the micro:bit.


3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time frame**. This would IMO be extremely useful since it would help keep "2") on track, otherwise it requires those with access to 1) to moderate and gatekeep changes closer - which is an overhead.


My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan for release as open source anyway is that it will be through a non-profit company - and I suspect that it would be disruptive for that. Or at least licensing under the name micro:bit will be. (ala the way the arduino name is, but not the hardware/software - which is open)


My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that 2) would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the timescale that you need.


My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of "why are you asking for me to say "no" " :-)


As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier will be simple answers to this;

For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:

  - It can't work otherwise
  - Necessary and vital,
  - Necessary
  - Extremely useful.

And the consequence of it not happening.

I'd say:

1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without this
2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality will suffer without this
3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause 2) to drift badly from 1) without this, resulting problems in schools

The more people who state their position, the better, the point being to help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter option to occur", to which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)

It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been up for release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to be such quick universal agreement). However, often the most common timeline I've heard has been November, so this would be a change that needs justification. To those on this list, I suspect the reasons are obvious.

It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)

Regards,


Michael


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From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Wed Jul 15 14:01:12 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:01:12 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CABeH_Sv4WfoQxNw+SSrdfBJ7+-FYdiSp9G9uWpYyLp+P3Bqgfg@mail.gmail.com>

I would say at this point, that our experiences with the raspberry pi story
is that 'open early, release often' is vital. There was access to thousands
of skilled developers as a result and it would never have worked without
them.

There just aren't anywhere near enough hands to the pump at the moment to
make this work. Opening it earlier will access additional other skilled
people to get involved and make it happen.

I'm reminded of Fredrick Brooks 'mythical man month' and the perils of
adding people to a project late, but I think there is no choice here.
Besides, the BBC staff are being paid good money to manage the project, and
we are talking about adding highly skilled volunteers to execute it. Howard
is ace, I have every faith in him managing this and dispelling the old
myths. The world has moved on since the 60's.

Come on team, it is possible. Come on BBC, make it happen, make it digital.

David.

Sent from my new HTC
On Jul 15, 2015 11:52 AM, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I spent an hour or so this morning trying to crack the "set up the dev
> environment" nut for the Python editor in TouchDevelop.
>
> Turns out that the instructions from Microsoft are a tad incomplete,
> we'd taken a few missteps but I've figured out the problems and I'm
> looking at a locally running version of the site.
>
> Yay.
>
> I'll re-trace my steps, write them down and stick 'em in a README which
> can form the start of a Python in TD editor that targets MicroPython.
> It'd be good if people can check these steps on Windows and Mac (I'm on
> Linux) to ensure we have the minimum amount of hassle needed to set
> things up for new developers.
>
> I'd like all our editor development to be free and public. Still
> awaiting Howard's ruminations on this.
>
> N.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul 15 14:17:49 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:17:49 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_Sv4WfoQxNw+SSrdfBJ7+-FYdiSp9G9uWpYyLp+P3Bqgfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_Sv4WfoQxNw+SSrdfBJ7+-FYdiSp9G9uWpYyLp+P3Bqgfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A64F6D.8000505@ntoll.org>

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

:-)

N.

On 15/07/15 13:01, David Whale wrote:
> I would say at this point, that our experiences with the raspberry pi
> story is that 'open early, release often' is vital. There was access to
> thousands of skilled developers as a result and it would never have
> worked without them.
> 
> There just aren't anywhere near enough hands to the pump at the moment
> to make this work. Opening it earlier will access additional other
> skilled people to get involved and make it happen.
> 
> I'm reminded of Fredrick Brooks 'mythical man month' and the perils of
> adding people to a project late, but I think there is no choice here.
> Besides, the BBC staff are being paid good money to manage the project,
> and we are talking about adding highly skilled volunteers to execute it.
> Howard is ace, I have every faith in him managing this and dispelling
> the old myths. The world has moved on since the 60's.
> 
> Come on team, it is possible. Come on BBC, make it happen, make it digital.
> 
> David.
> 
> Sent from my new HTC
> 
> On Jul 15, 2015 11:52 AM, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org
> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Folks,
> 
>     I spent an hour or so this morning trying to crack the "set up the dev
>     environment" nut for the Python editor in TouchDevelop.
> 
>     Turns out that the instructions from Microsoft are a tad incomplete,
>     we'd taken a few missteps but I've figured out the problems and I'm
>     looking at a locally running version of the site.
> 
>     Yay.
> 
>     I'll re-trace my steps, write them down and stick 'em in a README which
>     can form the start of a Python in TD editor that targets MicroPython.
>     It'd be good if people can check these steps on Windows and Mac (I'm on
>     Linux) to ensure we have the minimum amount of hassle needed to set
>     things up for new developers.
> 
>     I'd like all our editor development to be free and public. Still
>     awaiting Howard's ruminations on this.
> 
>     N.
> 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Microbit mailing list
>     Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 14:43:21 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:43:21 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVDa-LwNRHuYJEVCRxRk6pn2VQb8yockNCGA0UkW_T5iKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nick,


On 15 July 2015 at 11:49, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Michael,
>
> I've explained to Howard and Fiona on several occasions that the Python
> community are only going to engage if they're unencumbered by NDAs etc...
>


> In fact, in the PSF's original proposal I stated that our modus operandi
> would be to work in the open.
>
> We're being set up to fail if this code isn't opened to the wider
> community asap.

...

> Some speedy positive movement on this front is essential.


I think this is completely understood and also expect this is also agreed
with.
(I certainly agree with all of it)

On a personal front, I share your frustration, and I doubt I'm the only
person
who does. (That's strictly with my cap on of this not being the day job
mind)

I also know they're listening, and trying. I just wanted to break it down
into
things I know that are easier, and harder, to try and avoid the hard things
(eg
maybe action 3)  stopping the easier ones (action 1 and 2) from happening.


On that front this explicit statement...


> I think both steps 1 and 2 that you list are essential for the continued
> success of MicroPython on micro:bit project. Releasing the code for the
> website would also make development of the Python editor a *lot* easier.
>

... is particularly helpful.



> We also need devices for developers to play with.
>

I agree that developing for a device you don't have is next to impossible.



> Time is something we don't have a lot of. We need to move quickly on this.
>

Agreed.



Michael.
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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 14:47:11 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:47:11 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>

Joe Finney wrote:
...
> Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> Create an account.
> E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).

My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)


Michael.
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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 14:59:21 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:59:21 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVALcmoV++ey2AVCXZjEDdCSc67R-7wX3vbGXhbxqyvYOw@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 July 2015 at 11:52, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I spent an hour or so this morning trying to crack the "set up the dev
> environment" nut for the Python editor in TouchDevelop.
>
> Turns out that the instructions from Microsoft are a tad incomplete,
> we'd taken a few missteps but I've figured out the problems and I'm
> looking at a locally running version of the site.
>
> Yay.
>

Fantastic.

I'll happily stick this up on my dev server once that's sent through,
and give people access to that.


Michael.
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul 15 15:05:15 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 14:05:15 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC036A@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC036A@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <55A65A8B.1040508@ntoll.org>

Hey hey,

I think Damien may already have access to the correct repos (Damien?).

From my point of view, this is more about giving the wider community
access to the appropriate repos so we can build some community
engagement before the device hits "the streets". Hence my desire to open
up enough of the project so people who want to work on either
MicroPython itself or the editor that targets it in TouchDevelop have
zero cost of entry as it were.

This is why I spent some time this morning going through the set-up
instructions so people will be able to get to a working development
environment in under 5 minutes.

We all know how impatient developers are - if we (metaphorically) get
them to stand on one leg, stick a finger in their ear and whistle "God
Save the Queen" in order to get started then it ain't going to happen!

;-)

Access to code, accurate docs and baby steps instructions for common
tasks are the order of the day at this stage.

Does this make sense?

N.

On 15/07/15 12:27, Finney, Joe wrote:
> Let?s separate action from politics as much as possible here. We can do
> (1) NOW, so let?s do that and drive the rest as we go.
> 
>  
> 
> So here?s the call to arms to anyone who is already under NDA and wants
> access to the micro:bit runtime (DAL) library :
> 
>  
> 
> -          Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> 
> -          Create an account.
> 
> -          E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> 
> -          I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group
> at the mo).
> 
>  
> 
> Joe
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*Microbit
> [mailto:microbit-bounces+j.finney=lancaster.ac.uk at python.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Michael
> *Sent:* 15 July 2015 11:39
> *To:* For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
> *Subject:* Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Nick,
> 
>  
> 
> On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org
> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
> 
> On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
>> I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
>> contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
>> (and maybe others).
>>
> 
> Hi Joe,
> 
> That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
> the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
> sometime in August.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with the
> consequence of not happening being dire.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a
> quicker action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation
> generally speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a single
> individual - though are often *driven* by a one or more people.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible steps:
> 
>  
> 
> 1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-) )
> since without this, this group cannot move forward. The preference here
> IMO should be:
> 
>     - get the current working team added to the permissions list for
> [the mbed mercurial repo]
> 
>  
> 
> Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and vital.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL ASAP -
> **in the early august time frame** noted above. 
> 
> ie everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the
> micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I think
> this is necessary to the creation of a *successful* micropython runtime
> for the micro:bit.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time frame**.
> This would IMO be extremely useful since it would help keep "2") on
> track, otherwise it requires those with access to 1) to moderate and
> gatekeep changes closer - which is an overhead.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan for
> release as open source anyway is that it will be through a non-profit
> company - and I suspect that it would be disruptive for that. Or at
> least licensing under the name micro:bit will be. (ala the way the
> arduino name is, but not the hardware/software - which is open) 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that 2)
> would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the timescale that
> you need.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of "why are
> you asking for me to say "no" " :-)
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier will
> be simple answers to this;
> 
>  
> 
> For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:
> 
>  
> 
>   - It can't work otherwise
> 
>   - Necessary and vital,
> 
>   - Necessary
> 
>   - Extremely useful.
> 
>  
> 
> And the consequence of it not happening.
> 
>  
> 
> I'd say:
> 
>  
> 
> 1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without this
> 
> 2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality will suffer
> without this
> 
> 3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause 2) to drift badly from 1)
> without this, resulting problems in schools
> 
>  
> 
> The more people who state their position, the better, the point being to
> help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter option to occur",
> to which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)
> 
>  
> 
> It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been up
> for release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to be such
> quick universal agreement). However, often the most common timeline I've
> heard has been November, so this would be a change that needs
> justification. To those on this list, I suspect the reasons are obvious.
> 
>  
> 
> It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Michael
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Wed Jul 15 16:20:07 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:20:07 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>

My mbed user name is whaleygeek, as per my twitter handle :)


Mark Joyce gave me access to some of the mbed stuff earlier so that I could
re-flash my broken device, but I don't know what scope this covers and if
there are additional areas I don't have access to yet.


Interestingly I discovered by selotaping my microbit to a frying pan (don't
ask!) that if you hold the system button while inserting the USB, it enters
bootloader mode and you have to reflash it to recover it. Now that's got to
be the silliest way of discovering bootloader mode ever!!!

There is an image file on the mbed microbit site that you can re-flash if
you do this by accident like I did, but that presumes you have a spare
frying pan to hand, of course.


David


___________________________________________________________
David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
*Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex*

email:  dwhale at theiet.org
twitter: @whaleygeek
blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk

Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" <http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG>
- lets get kids coding!


On 15 July 2015 at 13:47, Michael <sparks.m at gmail.com> wrote:

> Joe Finney wrote:
> ...
> > Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> > Create an account.
> > E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> > I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).
>
> My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)
>
>
> Michael.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Jul 15 16:21:49 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:21:49 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A66C7D.5040508@ntoll.org>

On 15/07/15 15:20, David Whale wrote:
> Interestingly I discovered by selotaping my microbit to a frying pan
> (don't ask!) that if you hold the system button while inserting the USB,
> 

My god David, you can't leave us hanging like that. What were you doing
selotaping a micro:bit to a frying pan..?

:-)

N.


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From Jonathan.Austin at arm.com  Wed Jul 15 16:33:31 2015
From: Jonathan.Austin at arm.com (Jonathan Austin)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:33:31 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E39E021E-A72A-4D0B-A12E-DC4CE07B6729@arm.com>


On 15 Jul 2015, at 13:47, Michael <sparks.m at gmail.com> wrote:

> Joe Finney wrote:
> ...
> > Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> > Create an account.
> > E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> > I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).
>
> My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)
>

Michael, You've got access now

Joe: You're now an administrator

A bit of background here:
https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted

(specifically https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted#using-mbed-with-your-bbc-micro-bit )

https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/SB2SerialOut

Happy hacking :)

Jonny
>
> Michael.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782


From Jonathan.Austin at arm.com  Wed Jul 15 16:35:10 2015
From: Jonathan.Austin at arm.com (Jonathan Austin)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:35:10 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB445C04-C602-469E-8BF6-5CD5241443EE@arm.com>


On 15 Jul 2015, at 15:20, David Whale <david at thinkingbinaries.com> wrote:

> My mbed user name is whaleygeek, as per my twitter handle :)
>
>
> Mark Joyce gave me access to some of the mbed stuff earlier so that I could re-flash my broken device, but I don't know what scope this covers and if there are additional areas I don't have access to yet.
>
>
> Interestingly I discovered by selotaping my microbit to a frying pan (don't ask!) that if you hold the system button while inserting the USB, it enters bootloader mode and you have to reflash it to recover it. Now that's got to be the silliest way of discovering bootloader mode ever!!!

This sounds like a bug!

If you go into boot loader mode, you should just be able to unplug/replug without the
reset button held down and we'll recover. Can you confirm that this wasn't the case?

J
>
> There is an image file on the mbed microbit site that you can re-flash if you do this by accident like I did, but that presumes you have a spare frying pan to hand, of course.
>
>
> David
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
> Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex
>
> email:  dwhale at theiet.org
> twitter: @whaleygeek
> blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk
>
> Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" - lets get kids coding!
>
>
> On 15 July 2015 at 13:47, Michael <sparks.m at gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe Finney wrote:
> ...
> > Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> > Create an account.
> > E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> > I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).
>
> My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)
>
>
> Michael.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782


From sparks.m at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 16:52:09 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:52:09 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <E39E021E-A72A-4D0B-A12E-DC4CE07B6729@arm.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E39E021E-A72A-4D0B-A12E-DC4CE07B6729@arm.com>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVDHSzR4YWhscBviNP8b8NifrBHktiJ1h97EBUC=pEywDg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jonny,


Many thanks - I'll start rummaging this evening.

Quite excited to see what's been changed to take advantage of the increased
capabilities :-)

Regards,


Michael.

On 15 July 2015 at 15:33, Jonathan Austin <Jonathan.Austin at arm.com> wrote:

>
> On 15 Jul 2015, at 13:47, Michael <sparks.m at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Finney wrote:
> > ...
> > > Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> > > Create an account.
> > > E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> > > I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).
> >
> > My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)
> >
>
> Michael, You've got access now
>
> Joe: You're now an administrator
>
> A bit of background here:
> https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted
>
> (specifically
> https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted#using-mbed-with-your-bbc-micro-bit
> )
>
> https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/SB2SerialOut
>
> Happy hacking :)
>
> Jonny
> >
> > Michael.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Microbit mailing list
> > Microbit at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium.  Thank you.
>
> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
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From david at thinkingbinaries.com  Wed Jul 15 16:52:55 2015
From: david at thinkingbinaries.com (David Whale)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:52:55 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <55A66C7D.5040508@ntoll.org>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A66C7D.5040508@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CABeH_SsVrC5jm00qSpuzswHOLMkOvqt0+jfeDBR4y-rXtLDw5A@mail.gmail.com>

Ha Ha!

You can find a picture of it on the engadget gallery. It's a little game I
wrote that adds personality to an inanimate object (a frying pan) by
gamifying it.

http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/07/bbc-micro-bit-explained/

If you have access to the live.microbit.co.uk site, search for "Perfect
Pancakes". It was a demo I showed at the launch, it uses microbit gestures
and on screen animations. You have to flip the egg 5 times at the right
time to get a perfect pancake. If you leave it too long the egg catches
fire and you have to reach for the sky with the pan to turn off the smoke
alarm. If you tilt the pan it thinks you dropped the egg.

Howard loved it to bits, including the fake foam egg my wife made for it :)
It is almost but not entirely impossible with the egg in it (I've done it
once!), but the on-screen animations show you a lovely little animation of
the egg going up in the air and flipping.

D


___________________________________________________________
David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
*Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex*

email:  dwhale at theiet.org
twitter: @whaleygeek
blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk

Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft" <http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG>
- lets get kids coding!


On 15 July 2015 at 15:21, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 15/07/15 15:20, David Whale wrote:
> > Interestingly I discovered by selotaping my microbit to a frying pan
> > (don't ask!) that if you hold the system button while inserting the USB,
> >
>
> My god David, you can't leave us hanging like that. What were you doing
> selotaping a micro:bit to a frying pan..?
>
> :-)
>
> N.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From giles at pythonanywhere.com  Wed Jul 15 17:07:35 2015
From: giles at pythonanywhere.com (Giles Thomas)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:07:35 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A67737.7000807@pythonanywhere.com>

On 15/07/15 11:52, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I spent an hour or so this morning trying to crack the "set up the dev
> environment" nut for the Python editor in TouchDevelop.
>
> Turns out that the instructions from Microsoft are a tad incomplete,
> we'd taken a few missteps but I've figured out the problems and I'm
> looking at a locally running version of the site.
>
> Yay.

Yay!!!!!

Very much looking forward to seeing your notes.


ATB

Giles


>
> I'll re-trace my steps, write them down and stick 'em in a README which
> can form the start of a Python in TD editor that targets MicroPython.
> It'd be good if people can check these steps on Windows and Mac (I'm on
> Linux) to ensure we have the minimum amount of hassle needed to set
> things up for new developers.
>
> I'd like all our editor development to be free and public. Still
> awaiting Howard's ruminations on this.
>
> N.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

-- 
Giles Thomas <giles at pythonanywhere.com>

PythonAnywhere: Develop and host Python from your browser
<https://www.pythonanywhere.com/>

A product from PythonAnywhere LLP
17a Clerkenwell Road, London EC1M 5RD, UK
VAT No.: GB 893 5643 79
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Registered address: 28 Ely Place, 3rd Floor, London EC1N 6TD, UK

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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 18:31:11 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:31:11 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_SsVrC5jm00qSpuzswHOLMkOvqt0+jfeDBR4y-rXtLDw5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A66C7D.5040508@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_SsVrC5jm00qSpuzswHOLMkOvqt0+jfeDBR4y-rXtLDw5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVANrpQj_DOA1AQNMLyriScX=eEB_QhpTiNw7fkUyQsp6w@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 July 2015 at 15:52, David Whale <david at thinkingbinaries.com> wrote:

> Ha Ha!
>
> You can find a picture of it on the engadget gallery. It's a little game I
> wrote that adds personality to an inanimate object (a frying pan) by
> gamifying it.
>
>
Live demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRUrMvMYuA


Michael.
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From j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk  Thu Jul 16 01:24:19 2015
From: j.finney at lancaster.ac.uk (Finney, Joe)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 23:24:19 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVDHSzR4YWhscBviNP8b8NifrBHktiJ1h97EBUC=pEywDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E39E021E-A72A-4D0B-A12E-DC4CE07B6729@arm.com>
 <CAB+QZVDHSzR4YWhscBviNP8b8NifrBHktiJ1h97EBUC=pEywDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC1799@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>

Michael/David,

Looks like you?ve already been added to the relevant ACL on mbed. Cool.

Just to add to Jonny?s guide, I suggest you start with checking out the MicroBitSB2 repo. There?s a ton of outdated repos on their that we need to clean up. ? I?d start here:
https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/code/MicroBitSB2/

This includes the runtime library code, but also a bunch of test cases/samples that help to illustrate how things go together. See test folder at the top level.

Have fun. Any questions, feel free to get in touch.

Joe

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+j.finney=lancaster.ac.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: 15 July 2015 15:52
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames

Hi Jonny,


Many thanks - I'll start rummaging this evening.

Quite excited to see what's been changed to take advantage of the increased capabilities :-)

Regards,


Michael.

On 15 July 2015 at 15:33, Jonathan Austin <Jonathan.Austin at arm.com<mailto:Jonathan.Austin at arm.com>> wrote:

On 15 Jul 2015, at 13:47, Michael <sparks.m at gmail.com<mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com>> wrote:

> Joe Finney wrote:
> ...
> > Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> > Create an account.
> > E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> > I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).
>
> My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)
>

Michael, You've got access now

Joe: You're now an administrator

A bit of background here:
https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted

(specifically https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted#using-mbed-with-your-bbc-micro-bit )

https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/SB2SerialOut

Happy hacking :)

Jonny
>
> Michael.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782

_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 16 11:36:50 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 09:36:50 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_Sv4WfoQxNw+SSrdfBJ7+-FYdiSp9G9uWpYyLp+P3Bqgfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_Sv4WfoQxNw+SSrdfBJ7+-FYdiSp9G9uWpYyLp+P3Bqgfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938EAB0@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi,

Thanks David ? very kind.

The make public decision is not mine to make I?m afraid. I?ve sent round my recommendations and awaiting responses now. We?ve got a good cohort of people now building things for the Micro:bit (like David) and it is proving invaluable so I am hoping we can do the same with MicroPython.

Thanks again for all the support, I promise you it is much appreciated.

Howard

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of David Whale
Sent: 15 July 2015 13:01
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of microbit's TouchDevelop


I would say at this point, that our experiences with the raspberry pi story is that 'open early, release often' is vital. There was access to thousands of skilled developers as a result and it would never have worked without them.

There just aren't anywhere near enough hands to the pump at the moment to make this work. Opening it earlier will access additional other skilled people to get involved and make it happen.

I'm reminded of Fredrick Brooks 'mythical man month' and the perils of adding people to a project late, but I think there is no choice here. Besides, the BBC staff are being paid good money to manage the project, and we are talking about adding highly skilled volunteers to execute it. Howard is ace, I have every faith in him managing this and dispelling the old myths. The world has moved on since the 60's.

Come on team, it is possible. Come on BBC, make it happen, make it digital.

David.

Sent from my new HTC
On Jul 15, 2015 11:52 AM, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
Hi Folks,

I spent an hour or so this morning trying to crack the "set up the dev
environment" nut for the Python editor in TouchDevelop.

Turns out that the instructions from Microsoft are a tad incomplete,
we'd taken a few missteps but I've figured out the problems and I'm
looking at a locally running version of the site.

Yay.

I'll re-trace my steps, write them down and stick 'em in a README which
can form the start of a Python in TD editor that targets MicroPython.
It'd be good if people can check these steps on Windows and Mac (I'm on
Linux) to ensure we have the minimum amount of hassle needed to set
things up for new developers.

I'd like all our editor development to be free and public. Still
awaiting Howard's ruminations on this.

N.


_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit



----------------------------

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This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 16 11:37:51 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 09:37:51 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938EAC2@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Makes me laugh every time I read this ?

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of David Whale
Sent: 15 July 2015 15:20
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames

My mbed user name is whaleygeek, as per my twitter handle :)


Mark Joyce gave me access to some of the mbed stuff earlier so that I could re-flash my broken device, but I don't know what scope this covers and if there are additional areas I don't have access to yet.


Interestingly I discovered by selotaping my microbit to a frying pan (don't ask!) that if you hold the system button while inserting the USB, it enters bootloader mode and you have to reflash it to recover it. Now that's got to be the silliest way of discovering bootloader mode ever!!!

There is an image file on the mbed microbit site that you can re-flash if you do this by accident like I did, but that presumes you have a spare frying pan to hand, of course.


David


___________________________________________________________
David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex
email:  dwhale at theiet.org<mailto:dwhale at theiet.org>
twitter: @whaleygeek
blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk<http://blog.whaleygeek.co.uk>

Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft"<http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG> - lets get kids coding!

On 15 July 2015 at 13:47, Michael <sparks.m at gmail.com<mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com>> wrote:
Joe Finney wrote:
...
> Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> Create an account.
> E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).

My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)


Michael.



_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 16 11:58:33 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 09:58:33 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <CABeH_SsVrC5jm00qSpuzswHOLMkOvqt0+jfeDBR4y-rXtLDw5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABeH_SvMjwmaSYLTyH=7bjJSOGtN6H8BA7taOSvcSMy-cQtoHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A66C7D.5040508@ntoll.org>
 <CABeH_SsVrC5jm00qSpuzswHOLMkOvqt0+jfeDBR4y-rXtLDw5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938EB0C@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

This is a gorgeous use of the Micro:bit. I?m now fascinated by the idea of turning everyday objects into games with the Micro:bit ? it is a such a cool concept.

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of David Whale
Sent: 15 July 2015 15:53
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames

Ha Ha!

You can find a picture of it on the engadget gallery. It's a little game I wrote that adds personality to an inanimate object (a frying pan) by gamifying it.

http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/07/bbc-micro-bit-explained/

If you have access to the live.microbit.co.uk<http://live.microbit.co.uk> site, search for "Perfect Pancakes". It was a demo I showed at the launch, it uses microbit gestures and on screen animations. You have to flip the egg 5 times at the right time to get a perfect pancake. If you leave it too long the egg catches fire and you have to reach for the sky with the pan to turn off the smoke alarm. If you tilt the pan it thinks you dropped the egg.

Howard loved it to bits, including the fake foam egg my wife made for it :) It is almost but not entirely impossible with the egg in it (I've done it once!), but the on-screen animations show you a lovely little animation of the egg going up in the air and flipping.

D


___________________________________________________________
David Whale, B.Sc (Hons), MIET
Software Engineer and IET Schools Liaison Officer, Essex
email:  dwhale at theiet.org<mailto:dwhale at theiet.org>
twitter: @whaleygeek
blog:  blog.whaleygeek.co.uk<http://blog.whaleygeek.co.uk>

Co-author of the new book "Adventures in Minecraft"<http://amzn.to/ZGfxZG> - lets get kids coding!

On 15 July 2015 at 15:21, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
On 15/07/15 15:20, David Whale wrote:
> Interestingly I discovered by selotaping my microbit to a frying pan
> (don't ask!) that if you hold the system button while inserting the USB,
>

My god David, you can't leave us hanging like that. What were you doing
selotaping a micro:bit to a frying pan..?

:-)

N.



_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit




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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 13:31:40 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:31:40 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Micro:bit's required for Micrpython development
	and testing
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVC-_XmBXa+Zt29JD9aPx_jmJYnmDiThdHE37pLU3ga4bA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,


This has been a little buried in discussions, but at present, I'm not aware
of anyone on this list - aside from Damien (and perhaps Nicholas?) who has
a micro:bit for development purposes.

If you don't have one, and will need one to work on this, please reply to
this email, with an explicit statement to this effect.

This is in part prompted by the fact that I can't test this because I don't
have a device to test the code posted yesterday...


Michael.
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 16 13:34:57 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:34:57 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Micro:bit's required for Micrpython
 development and testing
In-Reply-To: <CAB+QZVC-_XmBXa+Zt29JD9aPx_jmJYnmDiThdHE37pLU3ga4bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB+QZVC-_XmBXa+Zt29JD9aPx_jmJYnmDiThdHE37pLU3ga4bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55A796E1.20806@ntoll.org>

Hi Michael,

I don't actually have a micro:bit myself. Damien has the one given to
the PSF.

I've asked Howard for at least 16 to start with for development purposes
and 500 for PyCon UK - to bootstrap a maker/programming community out of
the delegates who attend (we'd use them as the conference badges).

I'd also like one myself too... ;-)

N.

On 16/07/15 12:31, Michael wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> This has been a little buried in discussions, but at present, I'm not
> aware of anyone on this list - aside from Damien (and perhaps Nicholas?)
> who has a micro:bit for development purposes.
> 
> If you don't have one, and will need one to work on this, please reply
> to this email, with an explicit statement to this effect.
> 
> This is in part prompted by the fact that I can't test this because I
> don't have a device to test the code posted yesterday...
> 
> 
> Michael.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 16 14:02:44 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:02:44 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A79D64.204@ntoll.org>

Hi,

I spent an interesting hour over lunch looking into embedding an editor.

I've got an Ace (http://ace.c9.io/) based Python editor working in a
local development version of the TouchDevelop site. Howard, in theory,
we have an embedded editor for Python, albeit a simple one.

I notice that the simulator is external to the iframe I'm using to embed
the editor. Given that we're targeting MicroPython and NOT the
TouchDevelop based toolchain I believe we'll probably have to ask MS to
switch it off for us when users view the Python editor. An initial
investigation tells me that to use the simulator you have to emit TD AST.

Also, all the interactions with the wider TouchDevelop application API
are all written in TypeScript which isn't very helpful. I'll examine the
resulting JS to figure out what's going on.

While this confirms we have a working Python editor in TD - I have my
doubts about how much of the wider environment we'll be able to use. It
needs further investigation (which I'll do when I find the time).

Anyway... I'll stick all this in a public repos somewhere once I've
written up my notes and/or Howard says he's happy for me to do this in
the open. Having an NDA hanging around fills me with uncertainty about
this sort of thing.

Best wishes,

Nicholas.

On 15/07/15 11:52, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I spent an hour or so this morning trying to crack the "set up the dev
> environment" nut for the Python editor in TouchDevelop.
> 
> Turns out that the instructions from Microsoft are a tad incomplete,
> we'd taken a few missteps but I've figured out the problems and I'm
> looking at a locally running version of the site.
> 
> Yay.
> 
> I'll re-trace my steps, write them down and stick 'em in a README which
> can form the start of a Python in TD editor that targets MicroPython.
> It'd be good if people can check these steps on Windows and Mac (I'm on
> Linux) to ensure we have the minimum amount of hassle needed to set
> things up for new developers.
> 
> I'd like all our editor development to be free and public. Still
> awaiting Howard's ruminations on this.
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 14:05:23 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:05:23 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Micro:bit's required for Micrpython
 development and testing
In-Reply-To: <55A796E1.20806@ntoll.org>
References: <CAB+QZVC-_XmBXa+Zt29JD9aPx_jmJYnmDiThdHE37pLU3ga4bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A796E1.20806@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVDCv-VBNkYqjr7opQDAuA6GEkYq_N6FRe84LPxjdoZ55g@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 July 2015 at 12:34, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> I don't actually have a micro:bit myself. Damien has the one given to
> the PSF.
>

I wasn't sure about how many you had.


> I've asked Howard for at least 16 to start with for development purposes
>

Makes sense.


> and 500 for PyCon UK - to bootstrap a maker/programming community out of
> the delegates who attend (we'd use them as the conference badges).
>

Given the number of teachers attending this could be a very good idea.


> I'd also like one myself too... ;-)
>

I really wanted to raise it in the context of it being an active blocker to
progress at this stage rather than something that is just nice to have and
thought it worth raising separately.


Michael



> N.
>
> On 16/07/15 12:31, Michael wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > This has been a little buried in discussions, but at present, I'm not
> > aware of anyone on this list - aside from Damien (and perhaps Nicholas?)
> > who has a micro:bit for development purposes.
> >
> > If you don't have one, and will need one to work on this, please reply
> > to this email, with an explicit statement to this effect.
> >
> > This is in part prompted by the fact that I can't test this because I
> > don't have a device to test the code posted yesterday...
> >
> >
> > Michael.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Microbit mailing list
> > Microbit at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
>
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From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Thu Jul 16 14:07:32 2015
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:07:32 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <55A79D64.204@ntoll.org>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org> <55A79D64.204@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A79E84.9050905@timgolden.me.uk>

Did you write up the notes on getting the local TD environment set up?
Or will that be part of the editor write-up? (I'm just wondering whether
I missed something in the extremely interesting stream of other emails...)

TJG

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 16 16:40:11 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 15:40:11 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] SUCCESS! Setting up a local version of
 microbit's TouchDevelop
In-Reply-To: <55A79E84.9050905@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <55A63B58.7020602@ntoll.org> <55A79D64.204@ntoll.org>
 <55A79E84.9050905@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <55A7C24B.3040100@ntoll.org>

On 16/07/15 13:07, Tim Golden wrote:
> Did you write up the notes on getting the local TD environment set up?
> Or will that be part of the editor write-up? (I'm just wondering whether
> I missed something in the extremely interesting stream of other emails...)
> 
> TJG
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 

I'll write it up in a README attached to the editor code.

N.

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Fri Jul 17 14:56:29 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:56:29 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames
In-Reply-To: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC1799@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
References: <CAB+QZVCzr=gsbQheeLxTefw-VnZSinC9KGUvVWYd-5rOQJpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E39E021E-A72A-4D0B-A12E-DC4CE07B6729@arm.com>
 <CAB+QZVDHSzR4YWhscBviNP8b8NifrBHktiJ1h97EBUC=pEywDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC1799@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95938F5A0@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Thanks Joe.

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Finney, Joe
Sent: 16 July 2015 00:24
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames

Michael/David,

Looks like you?ve already been added to the relevant ACL on mbed. Cool.

Just to add to Jonny?s guide, I suggest you start with checking out the MicroBitSB2 repo. There?s a ton of outdated repos on their that we need to clean up. ? I?d start here:
https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/code/MicroBitSB2/

This includes the runtime library code, but also a bunch of test cases/samples that help to illustrate how things go together. See test folder at the top level.

Have fun. Any questions, feel free to get in touch.

Joe

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+j.finney=lancaster.ac.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: 15 July 2015 15:52
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] developer.mbed.org usernames

Hi Jonny,


Many thanks - I'll start rummaging this evening.

Quite excited to see what's been changed to take advantage of the increased capabilities :-)

Regards,


Michael.

On 15 July 2015 at 15:33, Jonathan Austin <Jonathan.Austin at arm.com<mailto:Jonathan.Austin at arm.com>> wrote:

On 15 Jul 2015, at 13:47, Michael <sparks.m at gmail.com<mailto:sparks.m at gmail.com>> wrote:

> Joe Finney wrote:
> ...
> > Go to https://developer.mbed.org/
> > Create an account.
> > E-mail me with your name and mbed username.
> > I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).
>
> My mbed username is sparkslabs. (same as github :)
>

Michael, You've got access now

Joe: You're now an administrator

A bit of background here:
https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted

(specifically https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/MicrobitGettingStarted#using-mbed-with-your-bbc-micro-bit )

https://developer.mbed.org/teams/Microbug/wiki/SB2SerialOut

Happy hacking :)

Jonny
>
> Michael.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org<mailto:Microbit at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
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_______________________________________________
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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Fri Jul 17 17:07:58 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 16:07:58 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
Message-ID: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org>

Hi Folks,

As you know, I'd managed to work out how to get a locally running
development environment set up for TouchDevelop.

So I spent today working out how to make a MicroPython editor that sits
within TouchDevelop. I've spent about 6 hours on this (most of which was
trying to work out how TouchDevelop worked).

In any case, you can see the results here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bP4pgiT2MU

As you can see, it works quite well, includes all the saving / sharing
functionality that's built into TouchDevelop and looks nice and simple.

I want to host the code somewhere. Michael, you mentioned you had a
spare private repos I might use..? Can you let me have the details and
share these with the group. Then I'll push my work (including a
comprehensive README) so everyone can poke around.

There are a few outstanding issues that need addressing:

1) TouchDevelop will put the device simulator to the right of the editor
if there's enough width in the browser. Since we don't target the
TouchDevelop platform we don't use this simulator and it'll need
replacing with something more appropriate - such as instructions for how
to download and flash MicroPython onto the micro:bit.

2) The code snippets function is merely a stub (resulting in an alert
message). I imagine a pop-up that will step kids through creating common
coding patterns from pre-defined fragments. I imagine there being
fragments for such things as function definitions, while loops and
if...else branching.

3) The same goes for help functionality. We can really use our
imaginations here to provide simple and effective help for users.

4) It needs testing on whatever the target browsers are. Howard,
Michael, any idea what these may be..?

It's important to be very clear: THIS EDITOR COMPLETELY IGNORES the
TouchDevelop AST / Microsoft / ARM compilation toolchain. The modus
operandi is as simple as possible: write Python, save it, copy it to the
device. That's it. The only additional functionality is that I piggy
back on the TouchDevelop cloud based stuff for saving and sharing.

In case you're wondering about the REPL functionality... there is a way
to do this using Chrome. It comes with a serial API that's only
available to browser plug-ins. This is a demonstration of one such
plug-in that connects to the micro:bit running MicroPython and allows
you to program the device directly (and if you listen carefully, you'll
hear Damien's infant son playing music in the background):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fa6NI6CCA0

Of course, any TTY type client can be used (such as PySerial) to connect
to the REPL if the device is plugged in via USB.

I'm flying out to Bilbao to give a talk at EuroPython soon, but I'll be
connecting to the internet and I'm more than happy to answer any
questions. Those of you also at EuroPython come find me and I'll show
you what I've done. Assuming Michael can get us the private repos,
perhaps we can start to fill in the snippet and help functionality?

As always, comments, constructive critique and ideas most welcome.

N.

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Fri Jul 17 17:23:23 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 16:23:23 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>

FYI... the code can be found in this private repos:

https://github.com/sparkslabs/micropython-bit

Michael is adding everyone who has provided a GitHUb username to the repos.

I'd really appreciate feedback - especially on the README instructions
for setting up the developer environment.

Ciao ciao,

Nicholas.

On 17/07/15 16:07, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> As you know, I'd managed to work out how to get a locally running
> development environment set up for TouchDevelop.
> 
> So I spent today working out how to make a MicroPython editor that sits
> within TouchDevelop. I've spent about 6 hours on this (most of which was
> trying to work out how TouchDevelop worked).
> 
> In any case, you can see the results here:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bP4pgiT2MU
> 
> As you can see, it works quite well, includes all the saving / sharing
> functionality that's built into TouchDevelop and looks nice and simple.
> 
> I want to host the code somewhere. Michael, you mentioned you had a
> spare private repos I might use..? Can you let me have the details and
> share these with the group. Then I'll push my work (including a
> comprehensive README) so everyone can poke around.
> 
> There are a few outstanding issues that need addressing:
> 
> 1) TouchDevelop will put the device simulator to the right of the editor
> if there's enough width in the browser. Since we don't target the
> TouchDevelop platform we don't use this simulator and it'll need
> replacing with something more appropriate - such as instructions for how
> to download and flash MicroPython onto the micro:bit.
> 
> 2) The code snippets function is merely a stub (resulting in an alert
> message). I imagine a pop-up that will step kids through creating common
> coding patterns from pre-defined fragments. I imagine there being
> fragments for such things as function definitions, while loops and
> if...else branching.
> 
> 3) The same goes for help functionality. We can really use our
> imaginations here to provide simple and effective help for users.
> 
> 4) It needs testing on whatever the target browsers are. Howard,
> Michael, any idea what these may be..?
> 
> It's important to be very clear: THIS EDITOR COMPLETELY IGNORES the
> TouchDevelop AST / Microsoft / ARM compilation toolchain. The modus
> operandi is as simple as possible: write Python, save it, copy it to the
> device. That's it. The only additional functionality is that I piggy
> back on the TouchDevelop cloud based stuff for saving and sharing.
> 
> In case you're wondering about the REPL functionality... there is a way
> to do this using Chrome. It comes with a serial API that's only
> available to browser plug-ins. This is a demonstration of one such
> plug-in that connects to the micro:bit running MicroPython and allows
> you to program the device directly (and if you listen carefully, you'll
> hear Damien's infant son playing music in the background):
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fa6NI6CCA0
> 
> Of course, any TTY type client can be used (such as PySerial) to connect
> to the REPL if the device is plugged in via USB.
> 
> I'm flying out to Bilbao to give a talk at EuroPython soon, but I'll be
> connecting to the internet and I'm more than happy to answer any
> questions. Those of you also at EuroPython come find me and I'll show
> you what I've done. Assuming Michael can get us the private repos,
> perhaps we can start to fill in the snippet and help functionality?
> 
> As always, comments, constructive critique and ideas most welcome.
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 17:37:29 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 16:37:29 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org>
	<55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVCNrN-+sKGQg-q=Gk0atv_B-6iO-vMMV=MBcDYKgk_Nbg@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 July 2015 at 16:23, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> FYI... the code can be found in this private repos:
>
> https://github.com/sparkslabs/micropython-bit
>
> Michael is adding everyone who has provided a GitHUb username to the repos.
>
> I'd really appreciate feedback - especially on the README instructions
> for setting up the developer environment.
>

If you can read this and you get a 404 for the above URL, it means I've
missed you -- please let me know, and I'll add you.


Michael.
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From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Fri Jul 17 17:59:08 2015
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 16:59:08 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org> <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55A9264C.7030907@timgolden.me.uk>

Thanks; I can access it. I'll look at the code / README later

From tom at wearewizards.io  Sun Jul 19 01:09:13 2015
From: tom at wearewizards.io (Tom Hunger)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 00:09:13 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <55A9264C.7030907@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org> <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
 <55A9264C.7030907@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPBmdvJg3-sZncdwGBn3rT+T=TeJreT=yEg5AtACt6k3t6-tfA@mail.gmail.com>

Great stuff!

I'm deleting https://github.com/WeAreWizards/python-microbit/settings
tomorrow unless there are any objections. Doing this in the open is the
right way to go.

~

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:59 PM, Tim Golden <mail at timgolden.me.uk> wrote:

> Thanks; I can access it. I'll look at the code / README later
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Sun Jul 19 12:28:19 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 11:28:19 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <CAPBmdvJg3-sZncdwGBn3rT+T=TeJreT=yEg5AtACt6k3t6-tfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org> <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
 <55A9264C.7030907@timgolden.me.uk>
 <CAPBmdvJg3-sZncdwGBn3rT+T=TeJreT=yEg5AtACt6k3t6-tfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55AB7BC3.7040609@ntoll.org>

+1

We should organise a hack day for the editor sometime over August.

Turns about the Ace editor already has a rather comprehensive snippets
module built in. It should be relatively easy to wrap this in a kid
friendly and obvious UI.

At the front of my mind is how easy it might be to set up a development
environment.

N.

On 19/07/15 00:09, Tom Hunger wrote:
> Great stuff!
> 
> I'm deleting https://github.com/WeAreWizards/python-microbit/settings
> tomorrow unless there are any objections. Doing this in the open is the
> right way to go.
> 
> ~
> 
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:59 PM, Tim Golden <mail at timgolden.me.uk
> <mailto:mail at timgolden.me.uk>> wrote:
> 
>     Thanks; I can access it. I'll look at the code / README later
>     _______________________________________________
>     Microbit mailing list
>     Microbit at python.org <mailto:Microbit at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jul 20 11:15:41 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:15:41 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC036A@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023AC036A@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED9593920F6@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Thanks Joe.

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Finney, Joe
Sent: 15 July 2015 12:28
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Let?s separate action from politics as much as possible here. We can do (1) NOW, so let?s do that and drive the rest as we go.

So here?s the call to arms to anyone who is already under NDA and wants access to the micro:bit runtime (DAL) library :


-          Go to https://developer.mbed.org/

-          Create an account.

-          E-mail me with your name and mbed username.

-          I?ll arrange for access (I don?t hold the keys to the group at the mo).

Joe

From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+j.finney=lancaster.ac.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: 15 July 2015 11:39
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Hi Nick,

On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org<mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
> I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
> contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
> (and maybe others).
>

Hi Joe,

That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
sometime in August.


Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with the consequence of not happening being dire.


In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a quicker action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation generally speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a single individual - though are often *driven* by a one or more people.


Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible steps:

1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-) ) since without this, this group cannot move forward. The preference here IMO should be:
    - get the current working team added to the permissions list for [the mbed mercurial repo]

Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and vital.


2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL ASAP - **in the early august time frame** noted above.
ie everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I think this is necessary to the creation of a *successful* micropython runtime for the micro:bit.


3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time frame**. This would IMO be extremely useful since it would help keep "2") on track, otherwise it requires those with access to 1) to moderate and gatekeep changes closer - which is an overhead.


My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan for release as open source anyway is that it will be through a non-profit company - and I suspect that it would be disruptive for that. Or at least licensing under the name micro:bit will be. (ala the way the arduino name is, but not the hardware/software - which is open)


My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that 2) would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the timescale that you need.


My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of "why are you asking for me to say "no" " :-)


As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier will be simple answers to this;

For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:

  - It can't work otherwise
  - Necessary and vital,
  - Necessary
  - Extremely useful.

And the consequence of it not happening.

I'd say:

1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without this
2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality will suffer without this
3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause 2) to drift badly from 1) without this, resulting problems in schools

The more people who state their position, the better, the point being to help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter option to occur", to which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)

It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been up for release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to be such quick universal agreement). However, often the most common timeline I've heard has been November, so this would be a change that needs justification. To those on this list, I suspect the reasons are obvious.

It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)

Regards,


Michael





----------------------------

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jul 20 12:08:09 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:08:09 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939217E@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi Nicholas (and Damien),

This is amazing news Nicholas -- to see a Python editor inside TD is a huge achievement. An honest well done! It is also amazing to see the REPL working through the Chrome browser.

Quick question -- are the YouTube videos private? If not, could you make them so please just while we sort things.

I'm going to get back on another thread to discuss progress.

Cheers
Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 17 July 2015 16:08
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor

Hi Folks,

As you know, I'd managed to work out how to get a locally running
development environment set up for TouchDevelop.

So I spent today working out how to make a MicroPython editor that sits
within TouchDevelop. I've spent about 6 hours on this (most of which was
trying to work out how TouchDevelop worked).

In any case, you can see the results here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bP4pgiT2MU

As you can see, it works quite well, includes all the saving / sharing
functionality that's built into TouchDevelop and looks nice and simple.

I want to host the code somewhere. Michael, you mentioned you had a
spare private repos I might use..? Can you let me have the details and
share these with the group. Then I'll push my work (including a
comprehensive README) so everyone can poke around.

There are a few outstanding issues that need addressing:

1) TouchDevelop will put the device simulator to the right of the editor
if there's enough width in the browser. Since we don't target the
TouchDevelop platform we don't use this simulator and it'll need
replacing with something more appropriate - such as instructions for how
to download and flash MicroPython onto the micro:bit.

2) The code snippets function is merely a stub (resulting in an alert
message). I imagine a pop-up that will step kids through creating common
coding patterns from pre-defined fragments. I imagine there being
fragments for such things as function definitions, while loops and
if...else branching.

3) The same goes for help functionality. We can really use our
imaginations here to provide simple and effective help for users.

4) It needs testing on whatever the target browsers are. Howard,
Michael, any idea what these may be..?

It's important to be very clear: THIS EDITOR COMPLETELY IGNORES the
TouchDevelop AST / Microsoft / ARM compilation toolchain. The modus
operandi is as simple as possible: write Python, save it, copy it to the
device. That's it. The only additional functionality is that I piggy
back on the TouchDevelop cloud based stuff for saving and sharing.

In case you're wondering about the REPL functionality... there is a way
to do this using Chrome. It comes with a serial API that's only
available to browser plug-ins. This is a demonstration of one such
plug-in that connects to the micro:bit running MicroPython and allows
you to program the device directly (and if you listen carefully, you'll
hear Damien's infant son playing music in the background):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fa6NI6CCA0

Of course, any TTY type client can be used (such as PySerial) to connect
to the REPL if the device is plugged in via USB.

I'm flying out to Bilbao to give a talk at EuroPython soon, but I'll be
connecting to the internet and I'm more than happy to answer any
questions. Those of you also at EuroPython come find me and I'll show
you what I've done. Assuming Michael can get us the private repos,
perhaps we can start to fill in the snippet and help functionality?

As always, comments, constructive critique and ideas most welcome.

N.



-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
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-----------------------------

From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jul 20 12:08:35 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:08:35 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org> <55A91DEB.1060006@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939218B@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Good news. Thanks Michael.

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 17 July 2015 16:23
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor

FYI... the code can be found in this private repos:

https://github.com/sparkslabs/micropython-bit

Michael is adding everyone who has provided a GitHUb username to the repos.

I'd really appreciate feedback - especially on the README instructions
for setting up the developer environment.

Ciao ciao,

Nicholas.

On 17/07/15 16:07, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> As you know, I'd managed to work out how to get a locally running
> development environment set up for TouchDevelop.
>
> So I spent today working out how to make a MicroPython editor that sits
> within TouchDevelop. I've spent about 6 hours on this (most of which was
> trying to work out how TouchDevelop worked).
>
> In any case, you can see the results here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bP4pgiT2MU
>
> As you can see, it works quite well, includes all the saving / sharing
> functionality that's built into TouchDevelop and looks nice and simple.
>
> I want to host the code somewhere. Michael, you mentioned you had a
> spare private repos I might use..? Can you let me have the details and
> share these with the group. Then I'll push my work (including a
> comprehensive README) so everyone can poke around.
>
> There are a few outstanding issues that need addressing:
>
> 1) TouchDevelop will put the device simulator to the right of the editor
> if there's enough width in the browser. Since we don't target the
> TouchDevelop platform we don't use this simulator and it'll need
> replacing with something more appropriate - such as instructions for how
> to download and flash MicroPython onto the micro:bit.
>
> 2) The code snippets function is merely a stub (resulting in an alert
> message). I imagine a pop-up that will step kids through creating common
> coding patterns from pre-defined fragments. I imagine there being
> fragments for such things as function definitions, while loops and
> if...else branching.
>
> 3) The same goes for help functionality. We can really use our
> imaginations here to provide simple and effective help for users.
>
> 4) It needs testing on whatever the target browsers are. Howard,
> Michael, any idea what these may be..?
>
> It's important to be very clear: THIS EDITOR COMPLETELY IGNORES the
> TouchDevelop AST / Microsoft / ARM compilation toolchain. The modus
> operandi is as simple as possible: write Python, save it, copy it to the
> device. That's it. The only additional functionality is that I piggy
> back on the TouchDevelop cloud based stuff for saving and sharing.
>
> In case you're wondering about the REPL functionality... there is a way
> to do this using Chrome. It comes with a serial API that's only
> available to browser plug-ins. This is a demonstration of one such
> plug-in that connects to the micro:bit running MicroPython and allows
> you to program the device directly (and if you listen carefully, you'll
> hear Damien's infant son playing music in the background):
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fa6NI6CCA0
>
> Of course, any TTY type client can be used (such as PySerial) to connect
> to the REPL if the device is plugged in via USB.
>
> I'm flying out to Bilbao to give a talk at EuroPython soon, but I'll be
> connecting to the internet and I'm more than happy to answer any
> questions. Those of you also at EuroPython come find me and I'll show
> you what I've done. Assuming Michael can get us the private repos,
> perhaps we can start to fill in the snippet and help functionality?
>
> As always, comments, constructive critique and ideas most welcome.
>
> N.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>




-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Mon Jul 20 13:59:16 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:59:16 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi,

I'm so pleased about the progress around this because I really want to see Python for the Micro:bit in the hands of kids, so a *huge* thanks to everybody who is making this happen. I'm personally in favour of the MicroPython solution as it is an amazing thing and puts coders in direct contact with the device. I'm also in favour of getting an editor inside TD because I think that will expose a huge number of kids to Python and this exciting way of controlling kit and also expose them to the Python community -- something which I feel is essential to the future of the Micro:bit project. It also leads them in a natural way to Raspberry Pi and all its resources.

However, Michael is right in that there are huge implications and potential problems, not just for the BBC but for its partners as well, in making this part of the project open source before the rest of the project. I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to explore the PSF's recommendations and the requests around open-source and lifting NDAs. Part of the answer of course revolves aroun when the project will be open sourced. When I talked to Nicholas I wasn't clear about that as we had only just announced those plans. I think Michael's breakdown of the tasks is a good one and his and Joe's philosophy of let's just try and make work what we can make work is the right way to go. I'd like to add an extension to this philosophy and suggest exploring what we can open up without exposing everything. The answer could be nothing or it could be something that was useful to the community without releasing the DAL.

Thanks again
Howard



-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 15 July 2015 11:49
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Michael,

I've explained to Howard and Fiona on several occasions that the Python
community are only going to engage if they're unencumbered by NDAs etc...

In fact, in the PSF's original proposal I stated that our modus operandi
would be to work in the open.

We're being set up to fail if this code isn't opened to the wider
community asap.

Some speedy positive movement on this front is essential.

I think both steps 1 and 2 that you list are essential for the continued
success of MicroPython on micro:bit project. Releasing the code for the
website would also make development of the Python editor a *lot* easier.

We also need devices for developers to play with.

Time is something we don't have a lot of. We need to move quickly on this.

N.

On 15/07/15 11:38, Michael wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>
> On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org
> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
>     > I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
>     > contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
>     > (and maybe others).
>     >
>
>     Hi Joe,
>
>     That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
>     the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
>     sometime in August.
>
>
>
> Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with the
> consequence of not happening being dire.
>
>
> In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a
> quicker action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation
> generally speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a single
> individual - though are often *driven* by a one or more people.
>
>
> Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible steps:
>
> 1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-) )
> since without this, this group cannot move forward. The preference here
> IMO should be:
>     - get the current working team added to the permissions list for
> [the mbed mercurial repo]
>
> Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and vital.
>
>
> 2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL ASAP -
> **in the early august time frame** noted above.
> ie everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the
> micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I think
> this is necessary to the creation of a *successful* micropython runtime
> for the micro:bit.
>
>
> 3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time frame**.
> This would IMO be extremely useful since it would help keep "2") on
> track, otherwise it requires those with access to 1) to moderate and
> gatekeep changes closer - which is an overhead.
>
>
> My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan for
> release as open source anyway is that it will be through a non-profit
> company - and I suspect that it would be disruptive for that. Or at
> least licensing under the name micro:bit will be. (ala the way the
> arduino name is, but not the hardware/software - which is open)
>
>
> My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that 2)
> would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the timescale that
> you need.
>
>
> My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of "why are
> you asking for me to say "no" " :-)
>
>
> As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier will
> be simple answers to this;
>
> For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:
>
>   - It can't work otherwise
>   - Necessary and vital,
>   - Necessary
>   - Extremely useful.
>
> And the consequence of it not happening.
>
> I'd say:
>
> 1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without this
> 2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality will suffer
> without this
> 3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause 2) to drift badly from 1)
> without this, resulting problems in schools
>
> The more people who state their position, the better, the point being to
> help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter option to occur",
> to which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)
>
> It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been up
> for release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to be such
> quick universal agreement). However, often the most common timeline I've
> heard has been November, so this would be a change that needs
> justification. To those on this list, I suspect the reasons are obvious.
>
> It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>




-----------------------------
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If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
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immediately.
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From sparks.m at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 14:24:44 2015
From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:24:44 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAB+QZVC3HmZZCZRb0vcnhXRPX17jUhed7jW3D0bAQGb7FzKyBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howard,


For info, Europython is happening at the moment in Spain, and I suspect
that if any movement on this could happen this week, it would be highly
beneficial, and conversely lack of movement may be detrimental.

(I'm not there, but I know that a lot of the core people from the PSF will
be)

The other key blocker is development devices. Without hardware, there are
real practical issues. At present only one person can test whether things
are working end to end, due to the distributed nature of those on the list.


Michael.


On 20 July 2015 at 12:59, Howard Baker-IF&L <howard.baker at bbc.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm so pleased about the progress around this because I really want to see
> Python for the Micro:bit in the hands of kids, so a *huge* thanks to
> everybody who is making this happen. I'm personally in favour of the
> MicroPython solution as it is an amazing thing and puts coders in direct
> contact with the device. I'm also in favour of getting an editor inside TD
> because I think that will expose a huge number of kids to Python and this
> exciting way of controlling kit and also expose them to the Python
> community -- something which I feel is essential to the future of the
> Micro:bit project. It also leads them in a natural way to Raspberry Pi and
> all its resources.
>
> However, Michael is right in that there are huge implications and
> potential problems, not just for the BBC but for its partners as well, in
> making this part of the project open source before the rest of the project.
> I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to explore the PSF's
> recommendations and the requests around open-source and lifting NDAs. Part
> of the answer of course revolves aroun when the project will be open
> sourced. When I talked to Nicholas I wasn't clear about that as we had only
> just announced those plans. I think Michael's breakdown of the tasks is a
> good one and his and Joe's philosophy of let's just try and make work what
> we can make work is the right way to go. I'd like to add an extension to
> this philosophy and suggest exploring what we can open up without exposing
> everything. The answer could be nothing or it could be something that was
> useful to the community without releasing the DAL.
>
> Thanks again
> Howard
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org]
> On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
> Sent: 15 July 2015 11:49
> To: microbit at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
>
> Michael,
>
> I've explained to Howard and Fiona on several occasions that the Python
> community are only going to engage if they're unencumbered by NDAs etc...
>
> In fact, in the PSF's original proposal I stated that our modus operandi
> would be to work in the open.
>
> We're being set up to fail if this code isn't opened to the wider
> community asap.
>
> Some speedy positive movement on this front is essential.
>
> I think both steps 1 and 2 that you list are essential for the continued
> success of MicroPython on micro:bit project. Releasing the code for the
> website would also make development of the Python editor a *lot* easier.
>
> We also need devices for developers to play with.
>
> Time is something we don't have a lot of. We need to move quickly on this.
>
> N.
>
> On 15/07/15 11:38, Michael wrote:
> > Hi Nick,
> >
> > On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org
> > <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
> >     > I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our
> >     > contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from BBC
> >     > (and maybe others).
> >     >
> >
> >     Hi Joe,
> >
> >     That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps would
> >     the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be open-sourced
> >     sometime in August.
> >
> >
> >
> > Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with the
> > consequence of not happening being dire.
> >
> >
> > In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a
> > quicker action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation
> > generally speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a single
> > individual - though are often *driven* by a one or more people.
> >
> >
> > Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible steps:
> >
> > 1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-) )
> > since without this, this group cannot move forward. The preference here
> > IMO should be:
> >     - get the current working team added to the permissions list for
> > [the mbed mercurial repo]
> >
> > Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and
> vital.
> >
> >
> > 2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL ASAP -
> > **in the early august time frame** noted above.
> > ie everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the
> > micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I think
> > this is necessary to the creation of a *successful* micropython runtime
> > for the micro:bit.
> >
> >
> > 3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time frame**.
> > This would IMO be extremely useful since it would help keep "2") on
> > track, otherwise it requires those with access to 1) to moderate and
> > gatekeep changes closer - which is an overhead.
> >
> >
> > My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan for
> > release as open source anyway is that it will be through a non-profit
> > company - and I suspect that it would be disruptive for that. Or at
> > least licensing under the name micro:bit will be. (ala the way the
> > arduino name is, but not the hardware/software - which is open)
> >
> >
> > My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that 2)
> > would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the timescale that
> > you need.
> >
> >
> > My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of "why are
> > you asking for me to say "no" " :-)
> >
> >
> > As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier will
> > be simple answers to this;
> >
> > For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:
> >
> >   - It can't work otherwise
> >   - Necessary and vital,
> >   - Necessary
> >   - Extremely useful.
> >
> > And the consequence of it not happening.
> >
> > I'd say:
> >
> > 1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without this
> > 2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality will suffer
> > without this
> > 3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause 2) to drift badly from 1)
> > without this, resulting problems in schools
> >
> > The more people who state their position, the better, the point being to
> > help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter option to occur",
> > to which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)
> >
> > It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been up
> > for release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to be such
> > quick universal agreement). However, often the most common timeline I've
> > heard has been November, so this would be a change that needs
> > justification. To those on this list, I suspect the reasons are obvious.
> >
> > It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Microbit mailing list
> > Microbit at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> >
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless
> specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Mon Jul 20 17:08:17 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:08:17 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] A working TouchDevelop Python editor
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939217E@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <55A91A4E.803@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939217E@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55AD0EE1.30905@ntoll.org>

On 20/07/15 11:08, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Quick question -- are the YouTube videos private? If not, could you
> make them so please just while we sort things.
> 

All my micro:bit related videos are private unless you know the URL -
but I've only ever posted the URLs on this list (which is private and
invite only).

N.

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Mon Jul 20 18:21:49 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:21:49 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55AD201D.2090806@ntoll.org>

Hi Howard,

See comments in-line below...

I'm currently in Bilbao at Europython so my connectivity is limited by
my attendance at events and conference wifi. Ergo, I'm likely to only be
checking email at the start and end of the day.

:-)

On 20/07/15 12:59, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm so pleased about the progress around this because I really want
> to see Python for the Micro:bit in the hands of kids, so a *huge*
> thanks to everybody who is making this happen. I'm personally in
> favour of the MicroPython solution as it is an amazing thing and puts
> coders in direct contact with the device. I'm also in favour of
> getting an editor inside TD because I think that will expose a huge
> number of kids to Python and this exciting way of controlling kit and
> also expose them to the Python community -- something which I feel is
> essential to the future of the Micro:bit project. It also leads them
> in a natural way to Raspberry Pi and all its resources.
> 

Great stuff. These are the sort of messages we want to see explicitly
and publicly stated by the BBC.

There needs to be an obvious and unambiguous signal from the BBC that
you're behind MicroPython, open source software and community engagement
(i.e. the BBC are happy to support the use of a community derived
solution, understand and believe in the philosophy that the community
adheres to and that you welcome the community as collaborators).

This is how to inspire a community to engage!

Releasing the DAL that Joe et al have been working so hard on would be a
hugely positive step both in terms of the engagement described above,
but also because you'll start to get all sorts of community derived help
with things such as the BLE and MicroPython.

This wouldn't be a rudderless ship... it's why the PSF want to create
bounties to help nudge efforts in the right direction. These would, of
course, be determined in consultation with the BBC.

> However, Michael is right in that there are huge implications and
> potential problems, not just for the BBC but for its partners as
> well, in making this part of the project open source before the rest
> of the project. I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to

Which part of the project?

So much more could be achieved with an active and engaged community.

Put simply, it's a problem related to time. The sooner you release
useful assets to the wider community, the quicker you'll get the
educational resource, cool projects and community engagement /
mind-share that you have stated you need for this project to be the
success it deserves to be.

> explore the PSF's recommendations and the requests around open-source
> and lifting NDAs. Part of the answer of course revolves aroun when
> the project will be open sourced. When I talked to Nicholas I wasn't
> clear about that as we had only just announced those plans. I think
> Michael's breakdown of the tasks is a good one and his and Joe's
> philosophy of let's just try and make work what we can make work is

My reading, and Michael was quite explicit about this, was that there
are obviously elements of the project that will need to be released in a
way that complements other partner's timetables and constraints.

Nevertheless, the first item on Michael's list was to release the DAL,
which has been created by Joe et al at Lancaster University.

> the right way to go. I'd like to add an extension to this philosophy
> and suggest exploring what we can open up without exposing
> everything. The answer could be nothing or it could be something that
> was useful to the community without releasing the DAL.

Release the DAL. The DAL is the key. From that, all other code flows. As
Michael suggests, releasing the code ASAP under the Apache2 license
would be the easiest, simplest and most useful thing to do in order to
give the BBC and its partners the lead time needed to create a
successful launch.

(How..? You simply add the text of the Apache2 license as a
"LICENSE.TXT" file in the code repository and make it publicly
available. THAT'S IT. The cost in time is a matter of seconds.)

Not releasing the DAL would be a huge constraint. You'd be setting us up
to fail.

The Python community are enthusiastic about the micro:bit (see, for
example, the reaction I saw at PyCon in Montreal and my recent
invitation to give a keynote address to PyCon India in October about
Python in education).

But we have no way to get involved!

Releasing code in a timely fashion is the single most important thing
the BBC can do to ensure the success of the device when it comes to
Python and the legacy of an active, engaged and self sustaining community.

As always, I'm more than happy to answer any questions you and your
colleagues my have and I welcome ideas, constructive critique and open
sourced versions of the DAL... ;-)

N.

> Thanks again Howard
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Microbit
> [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf
> Of Nicholas H.Tollervey Sent: 15 July 2015 11:49 To:
> microbit at python.org Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on
> micro:bit TODO list
> 
> Michael,
> 
> I've explained to Howard and Fiona on several occasions that the
> Python community are only going to engage if they're unencumbered by
> NDAs etc...
> 
> In fact, in the PSF's original proposal I stated that our modus
> operandi would be to work in the open.
> 
> We're being set up to fail if this code isn't opened to the wider 
> community asap.
> 
> Some speedy positive movement on this front is essential.
> 
> I think both steps 1 and 2 that you list are essential for the
> continued success of MicroPython on micro:bit project. Releasing the
> code for the website would also make development of the Python editor
> a *lot* easier.
> 
> We also need devices for developers to play with.
> 
> Time is something we don't have a lot of. We need to move quickly on
> this.
> 
> N.
> 
> On 15/07/15 11:38, Michael wrote:
>> Hi Nick,
>> 
>> On 15 July 2015 at 10:22, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org 
>> <mailto:ntoll at ntoll.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 15/07/15 10:19, Finney, Joe wrote:
>>> I'm afraid I can't do that unilaterally as it's written into our 
>>> contract... If we wanted to do this, it would need signoff from
>>> BBC (and maybe others).
>>> 
>> 
>> Hi Joe,
>> 
>> That's exactly what Howard was discussing on Monday. What steps
>> would the BBC need to execute in order for resources to be
>> open-sourced sometime in August.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Probably the key one is an explicit statement of absolute need with
>> the consequence of not happening being dire.
>> 
>> 
>> In my experience, **more** people stating this often results in a 
>> quicker action. The BBC is an incredibly risk averse organisation 
>> generally speaking, which means decisions rarely reside in a
>> single individual - though are often *driven* by a one or more
>> people.
>> 
>> 
>> Unpicking this, I would suggest there are three steps possible
>> steps:
>> 
>> 1) Sharing of the current runtime/DAL (pretty much immediately :-)
>> ) since without this, this group cannot move forward. The
>> preference here IMO should be: - get the current working team added
>> to the permissions list for [the mbed mercurial repo]
>> 
>> Since changes can and do happen, and tracking them is necessary and
>> vital.
>> 
>> 
>> 2) Look to release the *micro-python* version of the runtime/DAL
>> ASAP - **in the early august time frame** noted above. ie
>> everything necessary to run build and run micro-python for the 
>> micro-bit. The purpose of this would be community engagement. I
>> think this is necessary to the creation of a *successful*
>> micropython runtime for the micro:bit.
>> 
>> 
>> 3) Look to release the main runtime/DAL **in the august time
>> frame**. This would IMO be extremely useful since it would help
>> keep "2") on track, otherwise it requires those with access to 1)
>> to moderate and gatekeep changes closer - which is an overhead.
>> 
>> 
>> My impression - is that 3) could be *tricky* - because the plan
>> for release as open source anyway is that it will be through a
>> non-profit company - and I suspect that it would be disruptive for
>> that. Or at least licensing under the name micro:bit will be. (ala
>> the way the arduino name is, but not the hardware/software - which
>> is open)
>> 
>> 
>> My impression that despite overlap on some technical levels... that
>> 2) would be easier to get internal BBC agreement for on the
>> timescale that you need.
>> 
>> 
>> My impression is that 1) is just a no-brainer - of the level of
>> "why are you asking for me to say "no" " :-)
>> 
>> 
>> As I say though, the thing which will be make Howard's life easier
>> will be simple answers to this;
>> 
>> For each of the 3 things, how important is it to happen:
>> 
>> - It can't work otherwise - Necessary and vital, - Necessary -
>> Extremely useful.
>> 
>> And the consequence of it not happening.
>> 
>> I'd say:
>> 
>> 1) is "It can't work otherwise" - it can't be delivered without
>> this 2) is "Necessary" (possibly "Necessary and vital") - quality
>> will suffer without this 3) is "Extremely useful." - it could cause
>> 2) to drift badly from 1) without this, resulting problems in
>> schools
>> 
>> The more people who state their position, the better, the point
>> being to help Howard - since he can ask "do we want the latter
>> option to occur", to which you'd hope people would say "no". :-)
>> 
>> It's worth noting that everyone I've spoken to in the BBC has been
>> up for release (I state this because it's very unusual for there to
>> be such quick universal agreement). However, often the most common
>> timeline I've heard has been November, so this would be a change
>> that needs justification. To those on this list, I suspect the
>> reasons are obvious.
>> 
>> It will have more weight from others on this list though :-)
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
>> list Microbit at python.org 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------- http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and
> any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which
> are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have
> received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use,
> copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it
> and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors
> e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your
> consent to this. ----------------------------- 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 23 09:26:14 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:26:14 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55B09716.3050109@ntoll.org>

On 20/07/15 12:59, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> of the project. I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to
> explore the PSF's recommendations and the requests around open-source
> and lifting NDAs. Part of the answer of course revolves aroun when

Hi Howard,

We would love to know the outcome of this meeting. :-)

N.

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 23 13:06:27 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:06:27 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B09716.3050109@ntoll.org>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B09716.3050109@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393A24@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi Nicholas,

As will all things on this complex project the outcome is not straightforward. What I'd like to do is meet up with you, Jonny and Damien in Cambridge as soon as is practicable (next week?) and work through the outcome. I would have also liked Joe to be there as well but I know he is on leave next week.

Everybody recognised MicroPython is a brilliant achievement and everybody is supportive of it as a solution. However there are a number of resourcing decisions (both internal and external) that need to be made to make it work and that's what I'd like to work through with you. Of course, anybody else on the team is welcome to come, however we do need to fix a time without too much complexity.

The other thing I'd like to say is that all this work *will* be open sourced. It is a public promise and is an essential part of the Micro:bit project. The runtime will be made public as will a process to add to it. It has never been a question of *if* but *when*. At the moment the runtime is in a state of flux, it is changing daily, and is being worked on by a small number of people with a strong focus on making sure it is fit for purpose and does the things it needs to do for launch. It would not be fair to that team in Lancaster University or practical to open up the runtime before they have completed that work to their own satisfaction; it is a matter of personal pride as much as workflow. However, Joe Finney and Jonny Austin are happy to give access to the runtime so its status can be shared by teams needing the information and who are building projects based on it, which I believe has already been done.

Looking forward to hearing back from you
Howard




-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 23 July 2015 08:26
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

On 20/07/15 12:59, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> of the project. I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to
> explore the PSF's recommendations and the requests around open-source
> and lifting NDAs. Part of the answer of course revolves aroun when

Hi Howard,

We would love to know the outcome of this meeting. :-)

N.



-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 23 13:53:57 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 12:53:57 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393A24@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <CANw+Mz=V_BQ7Mt07rW0YP9hg3pf1Ha-TqWydXmrXmM0zJ-cfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB+QZVDVXMTZ7u4b0MboRrGZdj6jJuZUTbhjOEFx7c3Gb0eRJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABA359@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A6229C.5070003@ntoll.org>
 <052A0FA2625F4047A69AED33E191ACB023ABB52E@EX-0-MB0.lancs.local>
 <55A62664.90609@ntoll.org>
 <CAB+QZVBJ1Nf7C69Rp0P+jwpM=JVgWE8RycuwvmmoOqrjKZiTtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55A63AAC.5030105@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959392324@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B09716.3050109@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393A24@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>

Hi Howard,

Many many thanks for the prompt reply!

I'm on holiday next week too (and totally off the grid - a remote island
in Scotland).

I am completely free on the week commencing 3rd August apart from on
Tuesday 4th (I'm in London) and Wednesday 5th (my son's birthday). Happy
to work around whatever is most convenient for everyone else.

I'm guessing we all understand the concerns about the DAL being a moving
target. So, as I understand your explanation - Joe and Jonny have no
problem allowing people from the wider Python / MicroPython
community[ies] access in a "read only" mode..? (i.e. they don't have to
have gone through the faff of the NDA.)

Best wishes,

Nicholas.



On 23/07/15 12:06, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
> 
> As will all things on this complex project the outcome is not
> straightforward. What I'd like to do is meet up with you, Jonny and
> Damien in Cambridge as soon as is practicable (next week?) and work
> through the outcome. I would have also liked Joe to be there as well
> but I know he is on leave next week.
> 
> Everybody recognised MicroPython is a brilliant achievement and
> everybody is supportive of it as a solution. However there are a
> number of resourcing decisions (both internal and external) that need
> to be made to make it work and that's what I'd like to work through
> with you. Of course, anybody else on the team is welcome to come,
> however we do need to fix a time without too much complexity.
> 
> The other thing I'd like to say is that all this work *will* be open
> sourced. It is a public promise and is an essential part of the
> Micro:bit project. The runtime will be made public as will a process
> to add to it. It has never been a question of *if* but *when*. At the
> moment the runtime is in a state of flux, it is changing daily, and
> is being worked on by a small number of people with a strong focus on
> making sure it is fit for purpose and does the things it needs to do
> for launch. It would not be fair to that team in Lancaster University
> or practical to open up the runtime before they have completed that
> work to their own satisfaction; it is a matter of personal pride as
> much as workflow. However, Joe Finney and Jonny Austin are happy to
> give access to the runtime so its status can be shared by teams
> needing the information and who are building projects based on it,
> which I believe has already been done.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing back from you Howard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Microbit
> [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf
> Of Nicholas H.Tollervey Sent: 23 July 2015 08:26 To:
> microbit at python.org Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on
> micro:bit TODO list
> 
> On 20/07/15 12:59, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
>> of the project. I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to 
>> explore the PSF's recommendations and the requests around
>> open-source and lifting NDAs. Part of the answer of course revolves
>> aroun when
> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> We would love to know the outcome of this meeting. :-)
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------- http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and
> any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which
> are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have
> received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use,
> copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it
> and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors
> e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your
> consent to this. ----------------------------- 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 23 14:03:14 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:03:14 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re:  MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>

Hi Howard,

Apologies if you get this twice - conference WiFi had the collywobbles
as I was sending it so I'm unsure if the message was actually sent properly.

Many many thanks for the prompt reply!

I'm on holiday next week too (and totally off the grid - a remote island
in Scotland).

I am completely free on the week commencing 3rd August apart from on
Tuesday 4th (I'm in London) and Wednesday 5th (my son's birthday). Happy
to work around whatever is most convenient for everyone else.

I'm guessing we all understand the concerns about the DAL being a moving
target. So, as I understand your explanation - Joe and Jonny have no
problem allowing people from the wider Python / MicroPython
community[ies] access in a "read only" mode..? (i.e. they don't have to
have gone through the faff of the NDA.)

Best wishes,

Nicholas.



On 23/07/15 12:06, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Hi Nicholas,
> 
> As will all things on this complex project the outcome is not
> straightforward. What I'd like to do is meet up with you, Jonny and
> Damien in Cambridge as soon as is practicable (next week?) and work
> through the outcome. I would have also liked Joe to be there as well
> but I know he is on leave next week.
> 
> Everybody recognised MicroPython is a brilliant achievement and
> everybody is supportive of it as a solution. However there are a
> number of resourcing decisions (both internal and external) that need
> to be made to make it work and that's what I'd like to work through
> with you. Of course, anybody else on the team is welcome to come,
> however we do need to fix a time without too much complexity.
> 
> The other thing I'd like to say is that all this work *will* be open
> sourced. It is a public promise and is an essential part of the
> Micro:bit project. The runtime will be made public as will a process
> to add to it. It has never been a question of *if* but *when*. At the
> moment the runtime is in a state of flux, it is changing daily, and
> is being worked on by a small number of people with a strong focus on
> making sure it is fit for purpose and does the things it needs to do
> for launch. It would not be fair to that team in Lancaster University
> or practical to open up the runtime before they have completed that
> work to their own satisfaction; it is a matter of personal pride as
> much as workflow. However, Joe Finney and Jonny Austin are happy to
> give access to the runtime so its status can be shared by teams
> needing the information and who are building projects based on it,
> which I believe has already been done.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing back from you Howard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Microbit
> [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf
> Of Nicholas H.Tollervey Sent: 23 July 2015 08:26 To:
> microbit at python.org Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on
> micro:bit TODO list
> 
> On 20/07/15 12:59, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
>> of the project. I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to 
>> explore the PSF's recommendations and the requests around
>> open-source and lifting NDAs. Part of the answer of course revolves
>> aroun when
> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> We would love to know the outcome of this meeting. :-)
> 
> N.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------- http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and
> any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which
> are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have
> received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use,
> copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it
> and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors
> e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your
> consent to this. ----------------------------- 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 






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From damien.p.george at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 14:18:43 2015
From: damien.p.george at gmail.com (Damien George)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:18:43 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>
	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>

Howard, Jonny and Nicholas: I'm generally available the next couple of
weeks for a meeting in Cambridge.  Maybe we can meet at ARM?

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> Hi Howard,
>
> Apologies if you get this twice - conference WiFi had the collywobbles
> as I was sending it so I'm unsure if the message was actually sent properly.
>
> Many many thanks for the prompt reply!
>
> I'm on holiday next week too (and totally off the grid - a remote island
> in Scotland).
>
> I am completely free on the week commencing 3rd August apart from on
> Tuesday 4th (I'm in London) and Wednesday 5th (my son's birthday). Happy
> to work around whatever is most convenient for everyone else.
>
> I'm guessing we all understand the concerns about the DAL being a moving
> target. So, as I understand your explanation - Joe and Jonny have no
> problem allowing people from the wider Python / MicroPython
> community[ies] access in a "read only" mode..? (i.e. they don't have to
> have gone through the faff of the NDA.)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nicholas.
>
>
>
> On 23/07/15 12:06, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
>> Hi Nicholas,
>>
>> As will all things on this complex project the outcome is not
>> straightforward. What I'd like to do is meet up with you, Jonny and
>> Damien in Cambridge as soon as is practicable (next week?) and work
>> through the outcome. I would have also liked Joe to be there as well
>> but I know he is on leave next week.
>>
>> Everybody recognised MicroPython is a brilliant achievement and
>> everybody is supportive of it as a solution. However there are a
>> number of resourcing decisions (both internal and external) that need
>> to be made to make it work and that's what I'd like to work through
>> with you. Of course, anybody else on the team is welcome to come,
>> however we do need to fix a time without too much complexity.
>>
>> The other thing I'd like to say is that all this work *will* be open
>> sourced. It is a public promise and is an essential part of the
>> Micro:bit project. The runtime will be made public as will a process
>> to add to it. It has never been a question of *if* but *when*. At the
>> moment the runtime is in a state of flux, it is changing daily, and
>> is being worked on by a small number of people with a strong focus on
>> making sure it is fit for purpose and does the things it needs to do
>> for launch. It would not be fair to that team in Lancaster University
>> or practical to open up the runtime before they have completed that
>> work to their own satisfaction; it is a matter of personal pride as
>> much as workflow. However, Joe Finney and Jonny Austin are happy to
>> give access to the runtime so its status can be shared by teams
>> needing the information and who are building projects based on it,
>> which I believe has already been done.
>>
>> Looking forward to hearing back from you Howard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Microbit
>> [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf
>> Of Nicholas H.Tollervey Sent: 23 July 2015 08:26 To:
>> microbit at python.org Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on
>> micro:bit TODO list
>>
>> On 20/07/15 12:59, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
>>> of the project. I have a meeting on Wednesday which will start to
>>> explore the PSF's recommendations and the requests around
>>> open-source and lifting NDAs. Part of the answer of course revolves
>>> aroun when
>>
>> Hi Howard,
>>
>> We would love to know the outcome of this meeting. :-)
>>
>> N.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------- http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and
>> any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which
>> are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have
>> received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use,
>> copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it
>> and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors
>> e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your
>> consent to this. -----------------------------
>> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
>> list Microbit at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 23 15:12:27 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:12:27 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>

On 23/07/15 13:18, Damien George wrote:
> Howard, Jonny and Nicholas: I'm generally available the next couple of
> weeks for a meeting in Cambridge.  Maybe we can meet at ARM?
> 

Sounds like a plan. How does Monday 3rd look for people..?

N.


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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 23 15:37:22 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:37:22 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

The 3rd is good for me

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 23 July 2015 14:12
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

On 23/07/15 13:18, Damien George wrote:
> Howard, Jonny and Nicholas: I'm generally available the next couple of
> weeks for a meeting in Cambridge.  Maybe we can meet at ARM?
>

Sounds like a plan. How does Monday 3rd look for people..?

N.




-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 23 16:07:49 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:07:49 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55B0F535.2080207@ntoll.org>

On 23/07/15 14:37, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> The 3rd is good for me
> 

Cool... lets' provisionally pencil in Monday late morning (11am) with
location TBC..? Any suggestions..?

N.


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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 23 16:09:56 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:09:56 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B0F535.2080207@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B0F535.2080207@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393E31@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

I'm waiting for Jonny to get back as he is needed and assuming the meeting will be at ARM. If is on this group isn't he?

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 23 July 2015 15:08
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

On 23/07/15 14:37, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> The 3rd is good for me
> 

Cool... lets' provisionally pencil in Monday late morning (11am) with
location TBC..? Any suggestions..?

N.



From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 23 16:19:48 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:19:48 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393E31@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B0F535.2080207@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393E31@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55B0F804.4000709@ntoll.org>

On 23/07/15 15:09, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> I'm waiting for Jonny to get back as he is needed and assuming the meeting will be at ARM. If is on this group isn't he?
> 
> Howard
> 

He's on the group yes... but may filter this group out.

Of course, Damien is his neighbour so could just bang on the wall and
shout... ;-)

If location is a problem, there are plenty of semi-private coffee shops
we can use in Cambridge.

N.

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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 23 16:23:00 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:23:00 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B0F804.4000709@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B0F535.2080207@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393E31@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B0F804.4000709@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393E74@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Hi,
Yep, I Damien is happy to do that then a good idea :) It's not just location, Jonny needs to be part of the conversation.

I'll email him as well.

Thanks
Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 23 July 2015 15:20
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

On 23/07/15 15:09, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> I'm waiting for Jonny to get back as he is needed and assuming the meeting will be at ARM. If is on this group isn't he?
>
> Howard
>

He's on the group yes... but may filter this group out.

Of course, Damien is his neighbour so could just bang on the wall and
shout... ;-)

If location is a problem, there are plenty of semi-private coffee shops
we can use in Cambridge.

N.



-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
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-----------------------------

From Jonathan.Austin at arm.com  Thu Jul 23 16:19:27 2015
From: Jonathan.Austin at arm.com (Jonathan Austin)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:19:27 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com>

I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday afternoon?

Jonny

On 23 Jul 2015, at 14:37, Howard Baker-IF&L <howard.baker at bbc.co.uk> wrote:

> The 3rd is good for me
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
> Sent: 23 July 2015 14:12
> To: microbit at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
>
> On 23/07/15 13:18, Damien George wrote:
>> Howard, Jonny and Nicholas: I'm generally available the next couple of
>> weeks for a meeting in Cambridge.  Maybe we can meet at ARM?
>>
>
> Sounds like a plan. How does Monday 3rd look for people..?
>
> N.
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782


From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 23 16:28:18 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:28:18 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393E9A@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Good old Virgin -- hope they are better than they are with their trains :) Will try both of those now and get back.

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Austin
Sent: 23 July 2015 15:19
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday afternoon?

Jonny

On 23 Jul 2015, at 14:37, Howard Baker-IF&L <howard.baker at bbc.co.uk> wrote:

> The 3rd is good for me
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
> Sent: 23 July 2015 14:12
> To: microbit at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
>
> On 23/07/15 13:18, Damien George wrote:
>> Howard, Jonny and Nicholas: I'm generally available the next couple of
>> weeks for a meeting in Cambridge.  Maybe we can meet at ARM?
>>
>
> Sounds like a plan. How does Monday 3rd look for people..?
>
> N.
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782

_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 23 16:29:08 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:29:08 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B0F804.4000709@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B0F535.2080207@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393E31@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B0F804.4000709@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393EA2@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Ok -- just contacted Jonny. He is not free Monday morning. How about Tuesday or Monday afternoon?

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 23 July 2015 15:20
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

On 23/07/15 15:09, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> I'm waiting for Jonny to get back as he is needed and assuming the meeting will be at ARM. If is on this group isn't he?
>
> Howard
>

He's on the group yes... but may filter this group out.

Of course, Damien is his neighbour so could just bang on the wall and
shout... ;-)

If location is a problem, there are plenty of semi-private coffee shops
we can use in Cambridge.

N.



-----------------------------
http://www.bbc.co.uk
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in
error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to
this.
-----------------------------

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Thu Jul 23 19:35:04 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:35:04 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com>
Message-ID: <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>

On 23/07/15 15:19, Jonathan Austin wrote:
> I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday afternoon?
> 
> Jonny
> 

I can't do Tuesday but I'm free Monday PM.

Name a time / location and I'll be there.

N.


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From damien.p.george at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 01:02:40 2015
From: damien.p.george at gmail.com (Damien George)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 00:02:40 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org> <55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com>
 <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CANw+Mz=u7+D7p2m=gz_ExK52zJ88=WFoJHMtQHByB882Sx2LpQ@mail.gmail.com>

I can do Mon 3rd or Tue 4th, anything is fine.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> On 23/07/15 15:19, Jonathan Austin wrote:
>> I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday afternoon?
>>
>> Jonny
>>
>
> I can't do Tuesday but I'm free Monday PM.
>
> Name a time / location and I'll be there.
>
> N.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>

From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Fri Jul 24 10:08:26 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 08:08:26 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <CANw+Mz=u7+D7p2m=gz_ExK52zJ88=WFoJHMtQHByB882Sx2LpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org> <55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com> <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mz=u7+D7p2m=gz_ExK52zJ88=WFoJHMtQHByB882Sx2LpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939457A@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Damien George
Sent: 24 July 2015 00:03
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

I can do Mon 3rd or Tue 4th, anything is fine.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> On 23/07/15 15:19, Jonathan Austin wrote:
>> I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday afternoon?
>>
>> Jonny
>>
>
> I can't do Tuesday but I'm free Monday PM.
>
> Name a time / location and I'll be there.
>
> N.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>
_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Sun Jul 26 12:44:12 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 11:44:12 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939457A@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org> <55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com> <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mz=u7+D7p2m=gz_ExK52zJ88=WFoJHMtQHByB882Sx2LpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939457A@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55B4B9FC.30000@ntoll.org>

Folks,

I'm about to spend a week off-grid on a remote Scottish island (no
electricity etc). I'll assume that the meeting will be Monday afternoon
(since we've all indicated that we're free at that time) and that the
venue in Cambridge will be decided among yourselves next week.

When I return home on Sunday evening I'll pick up the details that I
presume you'll email me and will be in the right place at the right time
Monday PM. ;-)

Best wishes,

Nicholas


On 24/07/15 09:08, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Thanks
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Microbit
> [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf
> Of Damien George Sent: 24 July 2015 00:03 To: For Pythonic MicroBit
> related disucssions Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re:
> MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
> 
> I can do Mon 3rd or Tue 4th, anything is fine.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey
> <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
>> On 23/07/15 15:19, Jonathan Austin wrote:
>>> I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband
>>> connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday
>>> afternoon?
>>> 
>>> Jonny
>>> 
>> 
>> I can't do Tuesday but I'm free Monday PM.
>> 
>> Name a time / location and I'll be there.
>> 
>> N.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
>> list Microbit at python.org 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>> 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 


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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Sun Jul 26 17:59:29 2015
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 16:59:29 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Editor update - now with snippets and help
Message-ID: <55B503E1.1080703@ntoll.org>

Hi Folks,

I've just spent about three hours this afternoon adding snippet
functionality, arbitrary help and other tidy ups to the Python editor
(all pushed to the repos on GitHub). This is in preparation for next
Monday's meeting.

As usual, I've done a quick screencast of what I've been up to:

https://youtu.be/6g6ookpLG7g

NOTE TO HOWARD - I've always made these videos private and this is still
the case for the one linked to above. Just making this explicit because
you always email me about it... ;-)

All feedback would be most welcome!

I'm off-the-grid for a week (in Scotland on a remote island with no
electricity). Catch you all in August!

Happy holidays...

N.

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From damien.p.george at gmail.com  Sun Jul 26 22:51:38 2015
From: damien.p.george at gmail.com (Damien George)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 21:51:38 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Editor update - now with snippets and help
In-Reply-To: <55B503E1.1080703@ntoll.org>
References: <55B503E1.1080703@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <CANw+Mz=+6RgDPMTwuytOQ98i6Ov=wqpRO=WfaTNR-z=qzusn_g@mail.gmail.com>

That's very cool Nicholas!  Now all we need are some micro:bits to
connect to the editor!!

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 4:59 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've just spent about three hours this afternoon adding snippet
> functionality, arbitrary help and other tidy ups to the Python editor
> (all pushed to the repos on GitHub). This is in preparation for next
> Monday's meeting.
>
> As usual, I've done a quick screencast of what I've been up to:
>
> https://youtu.be/6g6ookpLG7g
>
> NOTE TO HOWARD - I've always made these videos private and this is still
> the case for the one linked to above. Just making this explicit because
> you always email me about it... ;-)
>
> All feedback would be most welcome!
>
> I'm off-the-grid for a week (in Scotland on a remote island with no
> electricity). Catch you all in August!
>
> Happy holidays...
>
> N.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>

From Jonathan.Austin at arm.com  Mon Jul 27 19:04:23 2015
From: Jonathan.Austin at arm.com (Jonathan Austin)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:04:23 +0100
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com> <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <58B7E64E-D130-4D69-95B7-60730748D416@arm.com>

Hi all,

I've booked a room at our CPC office

ARM Ltd.
CPC1, Capital Park,
Cambridge Road,
Fulbourn,
Cambridgeshire
CB21 5XE

We have a room 1330-1500 and 1600-1800. Not ideal, but I'm sure we can squat somewhere in the missing hour :)

Jonny

On 23 Jul 2015, at 18:35, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 23/07/15 15:19, Jonathan Austin wrote:
>> I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday afternoon?
>>
>> Jonny
>>
>
> I can't do Tuesday but I'm free Monday PM.
>
> Name a time / location and I'll be there.
>
> N.
>
>
> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782


From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul 28 11:10:33 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:10:33 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <55B4B9FC.30000@ntoll.org>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org> <55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com> <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mz=u7+D7p2m=gz_ExK52zJ88=WFoJHMtQHByB882Sx2LpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939457A@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <55B4B9FC.30000@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939B598@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Ok. It is sorted so should see the invite when you get back. Hope you had a lovely time.

Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 26 July 2015 11:44
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re: MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Folks,

I'm about to spend a week off-grid on a remote Scottish island (no
electricity etc). I'll assume that the meeting will be Monday afternoon
(since we've all indicated that we're free at that time) and that the
venue in Cambridge will be decided among yourselves next week.

When I return home on Sunday evening I'll pick up the details that I
presume you'll email me and will be in the right place at the right time
Monday PM. ;-)

Best wishes,

Nicholas


On 24/07/15 09:08, Howard Baker-IF&L wrote:
> Thanks
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Microbit
> [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf
> Of Damien George Sent: 24 July 2015 00:03 To: For Pythonic MicroBit
> related disucssions Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] Fwd: Re:
> MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
> 
> I can do Mon 3rd or Tue 4th, anything is fine.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey
> <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:
>> On 23/07/15 15:19, Jonathan Austin wrote:
>>> I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband
>>> connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday
>>> afternoon?
>>> 
>>> Jonny
>>> 
>> 
>> I can't do Tuesday but I'm free Monday PM.
>> 
>> Name a time / location and I'll be there.
>> 
>> N.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
>> list Microbit at python.org 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
>> 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit 
> _______________________________________________ Microbit mailing
> list Microbit at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit
> 



From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul 28 11:06:13 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:06:13 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list
In-Reply-To: <58B7E64E-D130-4D69-95B7-60730748D416@arm.com>
References: <55B0D5D5.2000205@ntoll.org>	<55B0D802.3050102@ntoll.org>
 <CANw+Mzk6v+Gh0VUQ2d54NsRgj4n5chnzDcRagzd19+HHp4whqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B0E83B.3020808@ntoll.org>
 <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED959393D57@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
 <7872AA7F-4DFE-4112-82CA-FA82A8F5903C@arm.com> <55B125C8.5010407@ntoll.org>
 <58B7E64E-D130-4D69-95B7-60730748D416@arm.com>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939B577@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Thanks Jonny.

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Austin
Sent: 27 July 2015 18:04
To: For Pythonic MicroBit related disucssions
Subject: Re: [Microbit-Python] MicroPython on micro:bit TODO list

Hi all,

I've booked a room at our CPC office

ARM Ltd.
CPC1, Capital Park,
Cambridge Road,
Fulbourn,
Cambridgeshire
CB21 5XE

We have a room 1330-1500 and 1600-1800. Not ideal, but I'm sure we can squat somewhere in the missing hour :)

Jonny

On 23 Jul 2015, at 18:35, Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org> wrote:

> On 23/07/15 15:19, Jonathan Austin wrote:
>> I'm stuck at home waiting for Virgin to install a broadband connection on Monday :( Could we do Tuesday? Or Monday afternoon?
>>
>> Jonny
>>
>
> I can't do Tuesday but I'm free Monday PM.
>
> Name a time / location and I'll be there.
>
> N.
>
>
> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
> Microbit mailing list
> Microbit at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.

ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782

_______________________________________________
Microbit mailing list
Microbit at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/microbit


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From howard.baker at bbc.co.uk  Wed Jul 29 14:24:38 2015
From: howard.baker at bbc.co.uk (Howard Baker-IF&L)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 12:24:38 +0000
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Editor update - now with snippets and help
In-Reply-To: <55B503E1.1080703@ntoll.org>
References: <55B503E1.1080703@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <AC3D7F4F99416C448862F668365F3ED95939E46A@BGB01XUD1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Totally impressive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbit [mailto:microbit-bounces+howard.baker=bbc.co.uk at python.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas H.Tollervey
Sent: 26 July 2015 16:59
To: microbit at python.org
Subject: [Microbit-Python] Editor update - now with snippets and help

Hi Folks,

I've just spent about three hours this afternoon adding snippet
functionality, arbitrary help and other tidy ups to the Python editor
(all pushed to the repos on GitHub). This is in preparation for next
Monday's meeting.

As usual, I've done a quick screencast of what I've been up to:

https://youtu.be/6g6ookpLG7g

NOTE TO HOWARD - I've always made these videos private and this is still
the case for the one linked to above. Just making this explicit because
you always email me about it... ;-)

All feedback would be most welcome!

I'm off-the-grid for a week (in Scotland on a remote island with no
electricity). Catch you all in August!

Happy holidays...

N.