From joe@strout.net Fri Jan 22 17:43:28 1999 From: joe@strout.net (Joseph J. Strout) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:43:28 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? Message-ID: Looking at http://www.python.org/sigs/, I find that all the sigs have expired except for distutils, meta, pythonmac, and types. I find this a little disturbing. Is this just a clerical oversight, i.e., all those marked expired "Dec 98" will be renewed RSN? Or are all those groups really about to be retired? Thanks, -- Joe P.S. Please CC me in your reply, as I'm not a meta-sig subscriber. ,------------------------------------------------------------------. | Joseph J. Strout developer: MacOS, Unix, 3D, AI | | joe@strout.net http://www.strout.net | `------------------------------------------------------------------' From guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Fri Jan 22 19:09:03 1999 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:09:03 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:43:28 PST." References: Message-ID: <199901221909.OAA02704@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> > Looking at http://www.python.org/sigs/, I find that all the sigs have > expired except for distutils, meta, pythonmac, and types. I find this a > little disturbing. Is this just a clerical oversight, i.e., all those > marked expired "Dec 98" will be renewed RSN? Or are all those groups > really about to be retired? We were planning to review the SIGs in December, but it hasn't happened yet. [...Some frantic web browsing...] OK, here's my proposal. The C++ sig is weak, but it's there in part for political reasons. The GUI sig and the ObjC sig appear comatose, and I propose to terminate them. All others are doing fine. Any questions? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) Fri Jan 22 19:15:51 1999 From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:15:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? References: <199901221909.OAA02704@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <13992.52839.372486.273144@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> >>>>> "Guido" == Guido van Rossum writes: Guido> OK, here's my proposal. The C++ sig is weak, but it's Guido> there in part for political reasons. The GUI sig and the Guido> ObjC sig appear comatose, and I propose to terminate them. Guido> All others are doing fine. Guido> Any questions? Seems reasonable to me. Any discussions or announcements for these lists should go to the main newsgroup. -Barry From guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Fri Jan 22 19:19:42 1999 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:19:42 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] terminating the objc-sig Message-ID: <199901221919.OAA02762@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Dear ObjC SIG members, I propose to termininate the ObjC SIG. The traffic in the second half of 1998 has been underwhelming: according to the archives, there were 10 messages from July through December, 6 of which were about the lack of activity in the SIG. There are only 38 list members. Termination of the SIG doesn't mean that Objective-C activity in the Python community is no longer endorsed or should come to an end -- far from it! It is simply acknowledging the fact that the SIG is not the forum to hear about it. The SIG archives and web pages will continue to exist, but the mailing list will no longer be usable, and the SIG will be moved to the list of retired SIGS (http://www.python.org/sigs/retired.html). I will wait a week before taking action, to allow for any objections to be heard. See you in comp.lang.python, --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Fri Jan 22 19:28:57 1999 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:28:57 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] terminating the GUI SIG Message-ID: <199901221928.OAA02781@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Dear GUI SIG members, I propose to termininate the GUI SIG. The traffic in the second half of 1998 has been underwhelming: according to the archives, there were only 45 messages from July through December. These were mostly questions about specific GUI packages such as Motif, Tkinter and Pmw. Such questions are usually (and much more frequently!) asked in the Python newsgroup. The development of a Python-specific portable GUI seems to have come to a standstill. All in all, I don't see much reason to keep a separate SIG mailing list alive for GUI topics. Termination of the SIG doesn't mean that alternative GUIs are now a taboo topic -- far from it! It is simply acknowledging the fact that the SIG is not the forum to hear about it. The SIG archives and web pages will continue to exist, but the mailing list will no longer be usable, and the SIG will be moved to the list of retired SIGS (http://www.python.org/sigs/retired.html). I will wait a week before taking action, to allow for any objections to be heard. See you in comp.lang.python, --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From bbum@codefab.com Fri Jan 22 20:48:16 1999 From: bbum@codefab.com (Bill Bumgarner) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:48:16 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Objc-SIG] terminating the objc-sig References: <199901221919.OAA02762@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <36A8E410.A997EB09@mail.codefab.com> I will second the motion and add a couple of details: (1) the whole objc<->python picture changes both with the release of Mac OS X Server / Mac OS X and with the release of GnuSTEP. Eventually, it will be popular again-- very popular-- but will be of a completely different nature in light of the bridge work done by Apple, AppleScript, and other as-yet-unnannounced technologies. (2) in the interim, if there is enough interest to idle along, I can easily set up an external mailing list.... b.bum From gstein@lyra.org Fri Jan 22 23:44:32 1999 From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:44:32 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: terminating the objc-sig References: <199901221919.OAA02762@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> <36A8E410.A997EB09@mail.codefab.com> Message-ID: <36A90D60.72913267@lyra.org> Bill Bumgarner wrote: > ... > (2) in the interim, if there is enough interest to idle along, I can easily > set up an external mailing list.... FYI, I offered to set up a list for Bill at pythonpros.com. He's accepted the offer, so this will happen in the next day or two. I'll announce on c.l.p. when the list is built, or you can simply poll http://www.pythonpros.com/maillists.html for it to show up. Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ From jim@digicool.com Sat Jan 23 17:54:24 1999 From: jim@digicool.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:54:24 +0000 Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? References: <199901221909.OAA02704@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> <13992.52839.372486.273144@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <36AA0CD0.70252712@digicool.com> "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > > >>>>> "Guido" == Guido van Rossum writes: > > Guido> OK, here's my proposal. The C++ sig is weak, but it's > Guido> there in part for political reasons. The GUI sig and the > Guido> ObjC sig appear comatose, and I propose to terminate them. > Guido> All others are doing fine. Yes. Please. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@digicool.com Technical Director (540) 371-6909 Python Powered! Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com http://www.python.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. From andy@robanal.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 20:36:46 1999 From: andy@robanal.demon.co.uk (Andrew Robinson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:36:46 GMT Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> It seems we have a lot of interest here. I looked up the procedure for SIG creation. Please join the meta-sig (http://www.python.org/sigs/meta-sig/) if you think this is worth a SIG (or if you think it should be killed :-) ) and we'll thrash out a charter. Here's my first stab: Proposal: Drawing-SIG (is this the right name? Drawing-and-Printing-SIG?) Coordinator: I'll do it, or defer if anyone else wants to. Objective: Develop standardised Python APIs and class libraries for drawing and printing. Initial Duration: six months Tasks: 1. gather together the various preliminary examples we have talked about, however unfinished, and look at them. Review other models such as Java2D, PGML etc. 2. Investigate popular output formats. Potential targets include PostScript, PDF, Tkinter, Windows GDI, Mac, OpenGL, bitmap graphics. Try to compare and contrast the features of each 3. Try to define a drawing API: a lowest-common-denominator set of graphics and text primitives which can be drawn in various formats. Non-portable code using more advanced functionality should not be discouraged. What really matters is to know which back ends have which capabilities, and for drawing applications to make clear what capabilities they require. 4. Page layout API - at a higher level, this will deal with concepts like regions on a page, text flow, and possible models for multi-page documents. This may be more relevant to printing than graphics. 5. 'Object-oriented graphics' framework - we should define a format whereby people can contribute new objects which know how to draw themselves using the API. Others can then work on particular hierarchies of graphics objects, such as HTML/XML rendering, charting and table libraries, with a good chance of portability. 6. A good set of examples to inspire further work. ----- I was committed to a basic API covering PDF already, and think that there is huge potential for a database reporting and printing engine based on Python. I'll get some of my code out this weekend. Andy Robinson Robinson Analytics Ltd. From akuchlin@cnri.reston.va.us Wed Jan 27 20:45:33 1999 From: akuchlin@cnri.reston.va.us (Andrew M. Kuchling) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:45:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) In-Reply-To: <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <13999.31371.236938.126285@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> Andrew Robinson writes: >Proposal: Drawing-SIG (is this the right name? >Drawing-and-Printing-SIG?) > >Coordinator: I'll do it, or defer if anyone else wants to. We already have a Plot-SIG that's been pretty quiet. Why not simply discuss it there? The Plot-SIG aim has mostly been at drawing graphs, not generalized drawing, but it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. -- A.M. Kuchling http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/ Why are you here, in this home of demons? Are you lost? Or are you also a demon? Forgive my bluntness, but I am an old man, and my flesh is sure to be stringy and lacking in taste: I doubt even a demon would relish it. -- Master Li is frightened of Dream, in SANDMAN #74, "The Exile" From Fred L. Drake, Jr." References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <13999.34300.187112.929281@weyr.cnri.reston.va.us> Andrew Robinson writes: > 4. Page layout API - at a higher level, this will deal with concepts > like regions on a page, text flow, and possible models for multi-page > documents. This may be more relevant to printing than graphics. This would definately be interesting to me. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Dr. Reston, VA 20191 From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) Wed Jan 27 21:35:45 1999 From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:35:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> <13999.31371.236938.126285@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <13999.34481.641265.686816@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> >>>>> "AMK" == Andrew M Kuchling writes: AMK> We already have a Plot-SIG that's been pretty quiet. AMK> Why not simply discuss it there? The Plot-SIG aim has mostly AMK> been at drawing graphs, not generalized drawing, but it AMK> doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Agreed. From redbird@orlando.crosswinds.net Wed Jan 27 21:54:45 1999 From: redbird@orlando.crosswinds.net (Gordon Worley) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:54:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) In-Reply-To: <13999.34481.641265.686816@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> <13999.31371.236938.126285@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: Mabey what needs to be done is get ride of the Plot-sig and incorporate its formor functionality into a new, more general sig so that there will be more action. ________________________________________ Red Bird Island Productions Gordon Worley http://www.crosswinds.net/orlando/~redbird/ mailto:redbird@orlando.crosswinds.net From andy@robanal.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 22:48:53 1999 From: andy@robanal.demon.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:48:53 GMT Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36b19782.39822319@post.demon.co.uk> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:09:39 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time), you wrote: >As plot-sig 'owner', I welcome this discussion in the PLOT-SIG, if you >choose to have it there. > >--david > > Sounds fine to me, but I worry a bit about the name. 'Plot-SIG' says 'Charts' loud and clea, which is why I had never joined. I am interested in an engine for printed output from Python - obviously page previews count too!. This could encompass rendering HTML and XML; database table libraries; automatic printing of sets of management accounts; and possibly high-volume reporting. Plotting is one part of this, and I'd certainly love to have plot libraries available as part of the larger context. If enough people have an interest this broad, is it worth broadening the name of the SIG? Of course, one of my reasons for piping up now is to put enough pressure on myself to actually get pdfgen out the door! - andy From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) Wed Jan 27 22:51:18 1999 From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:51:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) References: <36b19782.39822319@post.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <13999.39014.387893.904947@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> >>>>> "AR" == Andy Robinson writes: AR> 'Plot-SIG' says 'Charts' loud and clea, which is why I had AR> never joined. Really? It says something much more sinister to me . -Barry From joe@strout.net Fri Jan 22 17:43:28 1999 From: joe@strout.net (Joseph J. Strout) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:43:28 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? Message-ID: Looking at http://www.python.org/sigs/, I find that all the sigs have expired except for distutils, meta, pythonmac, and types. I find this a little disturbing. Is this just a clerical oversight, i.e., all those marked expired "Dec 98" will be renewed RSN? Or are all those groups really about to be retired? Thanks, -- Joe P.S. Please CC me in your reply, as I'm not a meta-sig subscriber. ,------------------------------------------------------------------. | Joseph J. Strout developer: MacOS, Unix, 3D, AI | | joe@strout.net http://www.strout.net | `------------------------------------------------------------------' From guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Fri Jan 22 19:09:03 1999 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:09:03 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:43:28 PST." References: Message-ID: <199901221909.OAA02704@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> > Looking at http://www.python.org/sigs/, I find that all the sigs have > expired except for distutils, meta, pythonmac, and types. I find this a > little disturbing. Is this just a clerical oversight, i.e., all those > marked expired "Dec 98" will be renewed RSN? Or are all those groups > really about to be retired? We were planning to review the SIGs in December, but it hasn't happened yet. [...Some frantic web browsing...] OK, here's my proposal. The C++ sig is weak, but it's there in part for political reasons. The GUI sig and the ObjC sig appear comatose, and I propose to terminate them. All others are doing fine. Any questions? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) Fri Jan 22 19:15:51 1999 From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:15:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? References: <199901221909.OAA02704@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <13992.52839.372486.273144@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> >>>>> "Guido" == Guido van Rossum writes: Guido> OK, here's my proposal. The C++ sig is weak, but it's Guido> there in part for political reasons. The GUI sig and the Guido> ObjC sig appear comatose, and I propose to terminate them. Guido> All others are doing fine. Guido> Any questions? Seems reasonable to me. Any discussions or announcements for these lists should go to the main newsgroup. -Barry From guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Fri Jan 22 19:19:42 1999 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:19:42 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] terminating the objc-sig Message-ID: <199901221919.OAA02762@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Dear ObjC SIG members, I propose to termininate the ObjC SIG. The traffic in the second half of 1998 has been underwhelming: according to the archives, there were 10 messages from July through December, 6 of which were about the lack of activity in the SIG. There are only 38 list members. Termination of the SIG doesn't mean that Objective-C activity in the Python community is no longer endorsed or should come to an end -- far from it! It is simply acknowledging the fact that the SIG is not the forum to hear about it. The SIG archives and web pages will continue to exist, but the mailing list will no longer be usable, and the SIG will be moved to the list of retired SIGS (http://www.python.org/sigs/retired.html). I will wait a week before taking action, to allow for any objections to be heard. See you in comp.lang.python, --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Fri Jan 22 19:28:57 1999 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:28:57 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] terminating the GUI SIG Message-ID: <199901221928.OAA02781@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Dear GUI SIG members, I propose to termininate the GUI SIG. The traffic in the second half of 1998 has been underwhelming: according to the archives, there were only 45 messages from July through December. These were mostly questions about specific GUI packages such as Motif, Tkinter and Pmw. Such questions are usually (and much more frequently!) asked in the Python newsgroup. The development of a Python-specific portable GUI seems to have come to a standstill. All in all, I don't see much reason to keep a separate SIG mailing list alive for GUI topics. Termination of the SIG doesn't mean that alternative GUIs are now a taboo topic -- far from it! It is simply acknowledging the fact that the SIG is not the forum to hear about it. The SIG archives and web pages will continue to exist, but the mailing list will no longer be usable, and the SIG will be moved to the list of retired SIGS (http://www.python.org/sigs/retired.html). I will wait a week before taking action, to allow for any objections to be heard. See you in comp.lang.python, --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From bbum@codefab.com Fri Jan 22 20:48:16 1999 From: bbum@codefab.com (Bill Bumgarner) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:48:16 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Objc-SIG] terminating the objc-sig References: <199901221919.OAA02762@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <36A8E410.A997EB09@mail.codefab.com> I will second the motion and add a couple of details: (1) the whole objc<->python picture changes both with the release of Mac OS X Server / Mac OS X and with the release of GnuSTEP. Eventually, it will be popular again-- very popular-- but will be of a completely different nature in light of the bridge work done by Apple, AppleScript, and other as-yet-unnannounced technologies. (2) in the interim, if there is enough interest to idle along, I can easily set up an external mailing list.... b.bum From gstein@lyra.org Fri Jan 22 23:44:32 1999 From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:44:32 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: terminating the objc-sig References: <199901221919.OAA02762@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> <36A8E410.A997EB09@mail.codefab.com> Message-ID: <36A90D60.72913267@lyra.org> Bill Bumgarner wrote: > ... > (2) in the interim, if there is enough interest to idle along, I can easily > set up an external mailing list.... FYI, I offered to set up a list for Bill at pythonpros.com. He's accepted the offer, so this will happen in the next day or two. I'll announce on c.l.p. when the list is built, or you can simply poll http://www.pythonpros.com/maillists.html for it to show up. Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ From jim@digicool.com Sat Jan 23 17:54:24 1999 From: jim@digicool.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:54:24 +0000 Subject: [meta-sig] most SIGs expired?!? References: <199901221909.OAA02704@eric.cnri.reston.va.us> <13992.52839.372486.273144@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <36AA0CD0.70252712@digicool.com> "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > > >>>>> "Guido" == Guido van Rossum writes: > > Guido> OK, here's my proposal. The C++ sig is weak, but it's > Guido> there in part for political reasons. The GUI sig and the > Guido> ObjC sig appear comatose, and I propose to terminate them. > Guido> All others are doing fine. Yes. Please. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@digicool.com Technical Director (540) 371-6909 Python Powered! Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com http://www.python.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. From andy@robanal.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 20:36:46 1999 From: andy@robanal.demon.co.uk (Andrew Robinson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:36:46 GMT Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> It seems we have a lot of interest here. I looked up the procedure for SIG creation. Please join the meta-sig (http://www.python.org/sigs/meta-sig/) if you think this is worth a SIG (or if you think it should be killed :-) ) and we'll thrash out a charter. Here's my first stab: Proposal: Drawing-SIG (is this the right name? Drawing-and-Printing-SIG?) Coordinator: I'll do it, or defer if anyone else wants to. Objective: Develop standardised Python APIs and class libraries for drawing and printing. Initial Duration: six months Tasks: 1. gather together the various preliminary examples we have talked about, however unfinished, and look at them. Review other models such as Java2D, PGML etc. 2. Investigate popular output formats. Potential targets include PostScript, PDF, Tkinter, Windows GDI, Mac, OpenGL, bitmap graphics. Try to compare and contrast the features of each 3. Try to define a drawing API: a lowest-common-denominator set of graphics and text primitives which can be drawn in various formats. Non-portable code using more advanced functionality should not be discouraged. What really matters is to know which back ends have which capabilities, and for drawing applications to make clear what capabilities they require. 4. Page layout API - at a higher level, this will deal with concepts like regions on a page, text flow, and possible models for multi-page documents. This may be more relevant to printing than graphics. 5. 'Object-oriented graphics' framework - we should define a format whereby people can contribute new objects which know how to draw themselves using the API. Others can then work on particular hierarchies of graphics objects, such as HTML/XML rendering, charting and table libraries, with a good chance of portability. 6. A good set of examples to inspire further work. ----- I was committed to a basic API covering PDF already, and think that there is huge potential for a database reporting and printing engine based on Python. I'll get some of my code out this weekend. Andy Robinson Robinson Analytics Ltd. From akuchlin@cnri.reston.va.us Wed Jan 27 20:45:33 1999 From: akuchlin@cnri.reston.va.us (Andrew M. Kuchling) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:45:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) In-Reply-To: <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <13999.31371.236938.126285@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> Andrew Robinson writes: >Proposal: Drawing-SIG (is this the right name? >Drawing-and-Printing-SIG?) > >Coordinator: I'll do it, or defer if anyone else wants to. We already have a Plot-SIG that's been pretty quiet. Why not simply discuss it there? The Plot-SIG aim has mostly been at drawing graphs, not generalized drawing, but it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. -- A.M. Kuchling http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/ Why are you here, in this home of demons? Are you lost? Or are you also a demon? Forgive my bluntness, but I am an old man, and my flesh is sure to be stringy and lacking in taste: I doubt even a demon would relish it. -- Master Li is frightened of Dream, in SANDMAN #74, "The Exile" From Fred L. Drake, Jr." References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <13999.34300.187112.929281@weyr.cnri.reston.va.us> Andrew Robinson writes: > 4. Page layout API - at a higher level, this will deal with concepts > like regions on a page, text flow, and possible models for multi-page > documents. This may be more relevant to printing than graphics. This would definately be interesting to me. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Dr. Reston, VA 20191 From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) Wed Jan 27 21:35:45 1999 From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:35:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> <13999.31371.236938.126285@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <13999.34481.641265.686816@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> >>>>> "AMK" == Andrew M Kuchling writes: AMK> We already have a Plot-SIG that's been pretty quiet. AMK> Why not simply discuss it there? The Plot-SIG aim has mostly AMK> been at drawing graphs, not generalized drawing, but it AMK> doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Agreed. From redbird@orlando.crosswinds.net Wed Jan 27 21:54:45 1999 From: redbird@orlando.crosswinds.net (Gordon Worley) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:54:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) In-Reply-To: <13999.34481.641265.686816@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <36ac681e.1919670@news.qual.net> <36AD4146.E0962DE1@vision.arc.nasa.gov> <78kgjt$nk8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78kk2b$pao$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <36af78b3.31934204@news.demon.co.uk> <13999.31371.236938.126285@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: Mabey what needs to be done is get ride of the Plot-sig and incorporate its formor functionality into a new, more general sig so that there will be more action. ________________________________________ Red Bird Island Productions Gordon Worley http://www.crosswinds.net/orlando/~redbird/ mailto:redbird@orlando.crosswinds.net From andy@robanal.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 22:48:53 1999 From: andy@robanal.demon.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:48:53 GMT Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36b19782.39822319@post.demon.co.uk> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:09:39 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time), you wrote: >As plot-sig 'owner', I welcome this discussion in the PLOT-SIG, if you >choose to have it there. > >--david > > Sounds fine to me, but I worry a bit about the name. 'Plot-SIG' says 'Charts' loud and clea, which is why I had never joined. I am interested in an engine for printed output from Python - obviously page previews count too!. This could encompass rendering HTML and XML; database table libraries; automatic printing of sets of management accounts; and possibly high-volume reporting. Plotting is one part of this, and I'd certainly love to have plot libraries available as part of the larger context. If enough people have an interest this broad, is it worth broadening the name of the SIG? Of course, one of my reasons for piping up now is to put enough pressure on myself to actually get pdfgen out the door! - andy From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) Wed Jan 27 22:51:18 1999 From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:51:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal (was 2d drawing system) References: <36b19782.39822319@post.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <13999.39014.387893.904947@anthem.cnri.reston.va.us> >>>>> "AR" == Andy Robinson writes: AR> 'Plot-SIG' says 'Charts' loud and clea, which is why I had AR> never joined. Really? It says something much more sinister to me . -Barry