From Dinu Gherman Tue Apr 1 12:07:36 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 97 13:07:36 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd In-Reply-To: <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Hello all, back from Easter vacation I see a bursting mailbox indicating that we are moving again a little bit on the python pattern issue. Marc has added to the initial proposal w/o knowing of the one I sent to Barry just before last weekend. I am sorry I did not spread it further. Following Barry's suggestions, it's much more concise now and less fuzzy. Also, it names some deliverables to head for. Read yourself below! Now some general comments of mine. To me it seems there is a certain misunderstanding. Some people in the PSA believe that the would-be SIG's main goal is discussion. That's not the way I see it. Clearly, a SIG's goal should be to 'do' something and produce 'results', visible to all. I think we all agree on this. To do this we also need to discuss, of course. The problem comes when determining how to do both most appropriately. IMHO, netnews is simply less suited for having a well-controlled communication than a mailing list. I think you know all the reasons for that, so I don't repeat them here. But one I want to stress is that if you work together at something and you must exchange material (sources, docs) netnews is certainly a pain. This is why I started playing with BSCW. I see BSCW as a good tool to work together and a mailing list as a good tool to discuss about one's work. Not more and not less. Barry writes: > [...] I'm a > little worried about its experimental nature and it less-than-open > policy: > > "So, there are wuite sone "don't do's" like: don't do any serious > work with it, don't create other, personal workspaces, don't > upload huge files and don't invite the whole Python community." > > If BSCW were to be an intergral part of PatternSIG, it ought to be > open to any member of the SIG, which is potentially open to anybody. Well, this was not meant to create an elitist place, of course. All I tried to say was that it's running on my machine (not running 365 days a year) and I think nobody likes if people upload plenty of stuff on his box w/o reason. Also, BSCW's access model is not finished yet, so the best thing to do would be to establish public and private work- spaces reflecting a division into a stable library and a brittle repository of whatever we gather. Responding to Fred, yes, I am interested in becoming the SIG's shephard, although I might change position/location in the very near future, but that should affect things only temporary, I guess. Also, I think Fredrik showed interest and I know he's using patterns a lot, so maybe a joint effort would be in order? I must add one final remark. I see this would-be SIG in several ways as an attempt of bringing two communities closer to each other (patterns and Python) with quite some potential benefit for both. In fact, the whole idea started out in the pattern community ;-) ... more on this later. But as in software design you must provide clean and concise interfaces between different components. And I don't see this happen with sticking to a netnews-based communication. What can I tell pattern heroes? To start using Python and look into comp.lang.python because .5% of the traffic deals with patterns implemented in Python? Not really, isn't it? Cheers, Dinu PS: Sorry, if you receive this mail twice. Proposal: Pattern-SIG Mission Statement (#2) PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing issues related to using design techniques and practices together with Python. These concepts range from the small- scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to medium-scale design patterns, usually comprising entities of several classes, to large-scale designs based on frameworks, often combining several patterns themselves. By doing that we emphasize questions and issues, not to be learned from the study of a programming language alone, but only from the interaction with its users' experience and projects. We do believe that there is valuable design experience to be communicated on several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to see that happen here. We are interested in what patterns have emerged within the Python community, we are curious to see if these are similar to those developed by others and we'd like you be aware that you probably are already using patterns, but that it makes much sense to be aware about them for your own benefit and for that of others. If you've been using design patterns conscious- ly, even better. We want to know about your experience and talk about patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of- Four (GOF). Please share your experience with us! Apart from discussing on this list, the PATTERN-SIG will collect and collate common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks of the trade, of general use to the Python community. Its mission is to produce a set of well-indexed Web pages that Python pro- grammers can use as reference material for their own projects. In order to do so, we will use whatever tools seem appropriate to collaboratively develop the material to be presented later. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From furnish@laura.llnl.gov Tue Apr 1 17:46:07 1997 From: furnish@laura.llnl.gov (Geoffrey Furnish) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:46:07 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- mission statement In-Reply-To: <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199704011751.MAA29628@python.org> lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de writes: > Ok, I'll give it another try. I inserted one more sentence in the > mission statement that Dinu originally posted. Hope that fixes the > 'fluffy clouds' critique put forward by Barry. > > Comments anyone ? Okay, I will pipe up. I was generally unimpressed with last weeks dialog which put Barry on the defensive owing to the attitudes of the Pattern SIG proponents. Finally, this note has pushed me over the edge. Here is my view of what is proposed. I find this mission statement to be drivvel-ridden, excessively loquacious, and generally poor. The SIG charter is not a place for advocacty or one-upsmanship. To "help" out, here is my blow by blow critique of the mission statement. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pattern-SIG Mission Statement > > PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with > emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. Excellent start. > This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing > issues related to using design techniques and practices > together with Python. Good. > The people who initiated this forum > simply believe that for various reasons Python is a wonderful > language that makes implementing and thinking about > higher-level design concepts very easy. I do not need to read Python advocacy. Chop this sentence. > These concepts range > from the small-scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to > medium-scale design patterns, usually comprising entities of > several classes, to large-scale designs based on frameworks, > often combining several patterns themselves. I generally approve of the point, but it should be stated with half as many words. > Some of the > reasons for believing in Python's appropriateness for this > programming-in-the-large area are the following ones. Python Advocacy. Chop this. > is fully dynamically typed, which reduces the need to declare > variables to zero. Total nonsense. > Python code can therefore be typed much > faster allowing for playing with the design, something rather > impossible to do with statically typed languages. Complete garbage. This is wrong, and offensive. > Being based > on indentation, Python's syntax is minimalistic and clean, > making it easy to read (and write) code and recognize > structures even when produced by others. True, but totally irrelevant to the issue of programming with patterns. Chop it. > Python is fully > object-oriented and lends itself much more to designing real > systems that do scale far better than any other bastardized > version of (so-called) object-oriented scripted languages. Worthless posturing, offensive, evidence of prejudicial pig-headedness, etc. Chop it. > Python can be regarded as a pretty ideal candidate for a > first language, making it easy to bundle design concepts like > those incorporated by patterns and frameworks right from the > start into developers and projects. Unnecessary advocacy. Chop it. > On this list we want to discuss along the lines of "Python > applied to higher-level design of programs", emphasizing > questions and issues, Good start, ... > not to be learned from the study of a > programming language alone, but only from the interaction > with its users' experience and projects. but rotten end. Preachy, chop it. > We do believe that > there is valuable design experience to be communicated on > several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to > see that happen here. Redundant, but otherwise non offensive. (But chop "we do believe believe"). > Mastering a given language is just one > part of the equation. Accessing a body of established design > knowledge is the other one. People do not read charter statements for professional nannyisms. Chop this stuff. > To get things going people contributing here should revisit > their projects, either mentally or even in code, perhaps, and > ask themselves what it is they learned in a specific case, > how they solved a situation, what trick they used and, of > course, how this could be reproduced by them or others in a > useful way. People do not need you to tell them how to manage their time in order to participate constructively in a discussion forum. Instead say something like: Participants are invited to share design lessons learned in the course of Python projects, canonical design patterns (especially if expressed in Python source code), and the like. > More to the point, we are interested in what > patterns have emerged within the Python community, we are Redundant but otherwise non offensive. > curious to see if these are similar to those developed by Unnecessary. > others and we'd like you be aware that you probably are You need to drop the patronizing tone, people hate it. > already using patterns, but that it makes much sense to be > aware about them for your own benefit and for that of others. Is this a guilt trip or altruism? It is very hard to tell which. Chop it. > If you've been using design patterns consciously, even > better. We want to know about your experience and talk about > patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of-Four > (GOF). Please share your experience with us! Again, redundant but otherwise non offensive. > [...] The rest continues with the run on verbage, but did not seem otherwise offensive. Bottom line: I like the idea of the Pattern Sig, I absolutely loathe the billing it would get with this charter. Chop it way way down, cut all the 'tudinal tone, and stick to professional sounding, positively motivated, fact-oriented statements. The whole first part (the part I quoted and commented on) should be able to fit succinctly into two paragraphs of non offensive technical prose, without attempting to preach Python, bash alternatives, or schoolmaster the ignorant. If you can put together a charter statement that doesn't make me wanna scream when I read it, then I will be a suporter of the formation of the SIG. -- Geoffrey Furnish email: furnish@llnl.gov LLNL X/ICF phone: 510-424-4227 fax: 510-423-0925 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From furnish@laura.llnl.gov Tue Apr 1 18:08:50 1997 From: furnish@laura.llnl.gov (Geoffrey Furnish) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:08:50 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd In-Reply-To: <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199704011812.NAA29778@python.org> Dinu Gherman writes: > Hello all, > > back from Easter vacation I see a bursting mailbox indicating > that we are moving again a little bit on the python pattern > issue. Marc has added to the initial proposal w/o knowing of > the one I sent to Barry just before last weekend. I am sorry > I did not spread it further. Following Barry's suggestions, > it's much more concise now and less fuzzy. Also, it names > some deliverables to head for. Read yourself below! I like this new one a /lot/ more, mostly because it is dramatically shorter. However, it still contains a lot of unnecessary verbage relating to time management and professional advice. I would like to see much of that chopped, just as indicated in my former post. By that point the charter would be getting /really/ short, so perhaps it would be okay to actually /add/ some additional technical content. > Proposal: Pattern-SIG Mission Statement (#2) > > PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with > emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. > > This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing > issues related to using design techniques and practices > together with Python. These concepts range from the small- > scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to medium-scale design > patterns, usually comprising entities of several classes, to > large-scale designs based on frameworks, often combining > several patterns themselves. By doing that we emphasize > questions and issues, not to be learned from the study of a > programming language alone, but only from the interaction > with its users' experience and projects. We do believe that > there is valuable design experience to be communicated on > several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to > see that happen here. > > We are interested in what patterns have emerged within the > Python community, we are curious to see if these are similar > to those developed by others and we'd like you be aware that > you probably are already using patterns, but that it makes > much sense to be aware about them for your own benefit and for > that of others. If you've been using design patterns conscious- > ly, even better. We want to know about your experience and talk > about patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of- > Four (GOF). Please share your experience with us! > > Apart from discussing on this list, the PATTERN-SIG will collect > and collate common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks of > the trade, of general use to the Python community. Its mission > is to produce a set of well-indexed Web pages that Python pro- > grammers can use as reference material for their own projects. > In order to do so, we will use whatever tools seem appropriate > to collaboratively develop the material to be presented later. > > _______________ > META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists > > send messages to: meta-sig@python.org > administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org > _______________ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Tue Apr 1 12:58:42 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 14:58:42 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> Michael McLay wrote: > > lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de writes: > > Hmm. I had a look at the two links you mentioned. Digital Creations > > stuff look for talk'ing with your Browser, but doesn't seem to offer > > a way to organize files and related stuff. The other site looks > > somewhat unprofessional, but seems to support file upload. > > In what sense did you see it as unprofessional? First, its user interface doesn't look too professional (compared to DigiCools and BSCW) and then there are so many posting in the docs area about bugs, enhancements and changes to the core functions, that it doesn't give a good feeling of continuity... [apart from it using frames, which a tool meant for a greater public should not count on] > > No, that's why I asked to consider installing a BSCW server at > > www.python.org. > > Ok, how do we get the code to see about doing a local installation. > Ken Manheimer will need to do the work, so he'll need to become > familiar with it. (Part of the reason that having Jim do this might > be more realistic is that Ken may not have time to do this task. > Having Jim do it will be a freebe to the PSA, but Jim will probably > want to use his own code since he is familiar with it. You can download it from http://bscw.gmd.de. Installation is pretty easy... If you just want to get used to it, try the sample workspace area at the BSCW site. > > Well, we might agree on some common subject prefix, to easily > > recognize the postings, say [META-PATTERN-SIG] ?! > > That would be fine. Ok, then we can start doing some real work now. Hmm. First assignment: gather all hints, tricks, etc. you can find around the net and post them under the subject '[META-PATTERN-SIG] hints and tricks' ! Please always mail cc: to either Dinu or me, so that we can work out a well formatted collection. (This doesn't mean that I'll forget about the idea of having a REAL pattern-sig though ;-) -- cheers, Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Tue Apr 1 19:33:57 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 21:33:57 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <33416325.75C30B40@uni-duesseldorf.de> Geoffrey Furnish wrote: > > Dinu Gherman writes: > > Hello all, > > > > back from Easter vacation I see a bursting mailbox indicating > > that we are moving again a little bit on the python pattern > > issue. Marc has added to the initial proposal w/o knowing of > > the one I sent to Barry just before last weekend. I am sorry > > I did not spread it further. Following Barry's suggestions, > > it's much more concise now and less fuzzy. Also, it names > > some deliverables to head for. Read yourself below! > > I like this new one a /lot/ more, mostly because it is dramatically > shorter. However, it still contains a lot of unnecessary verbage > relating to time management and professional advice. I would like to > see much of that chopped, just as indicated in my former post. By > that point the charter would be getting /really/ short, so perhaps it > would be okay to actually /add/ some additional technical content. [put your favourite flame against non-constructive criticism here] Well then... go ahead... we're all listening... -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From tismer@tismer.com Wed Apr 2 09:32:20 1997 From: tismer@tismer.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:32:20 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <334227A3.2537@tismer.com> Hi all, I have a proposal. Amongst the discussion, Michael McLay wrote: > > Ok, how do we get the code to see about doing a local installation. > > Ken Manheimer will need to do the work, so he'll need to become > > familiar with it. (Part of the reason that having Jim do this might > > be more realistic is that Ken may not have time to do this task. > > Having Jim do it will be a freebe to the PSA, but Jim will probably > > want to use his own code since he is familiar with it. What about this: We could give the BSCW a trial without loading Ken with work. I could offer to let Dinu go into my StarShip machine and install BSCW there. We can use it for the SIG as a test horse and decide later. Ken could use this installation as a sample, since he will have access to the machine, also. This would fit into the purpose of the StarShip machine which will be announced as a dedicated Python site, good for testing purposes before things go to python.org. If you find this practical, let me know. The machine exists since easter and she's idle. cheers - chris _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Wed Apr 2 09:31:48 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:31:48 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> <334227A3.2537@tismer.com> Message-ID: <33422784.458892DA@uni-duesseldorf.de> Christian Tismer wrote: > > What about this: We could give the BSCW a trial without loading Ken > with work. I could offer to let Dinu go into my StarShip machine > and install BSCW there. We can use it for the SIG as a test horse > and decide later. Ken could use this installation as a sample, > since he will have access to the machine, also. > This would fit into the purpose of the StarShip machine which will > be announced as a dedicated Python site, good for testing purposes > before things go to python.org. > > If you find this practical, let me know. The machine exists since > easter and she's idle. Sounds ok. Then we could wait until Version 3.0 of BSCW comes out and have that installed at python.org. We should agree to ONE site though... currently there are already two: the one that Dinu installed on his machine and the one at the GMD site. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Wed Apr 2 11:59:06 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 12:59:06 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig In-Reply-To: <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199704021159.LAA01734@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > > > Well, we might agree on some common subject prefix, to easily > > > recognize the postings, say [META-PATTERN-SIG] ?! > > > > That would be fine. > > Ok, then we can start doing some real work now. Hmm. First assignment: > gather all hints, tricks, etc. you can find around the net and post > them under the subject '[META-PATTERN-SIG] hints and tricks' ! Not sure this prefix will work on news. It requires quite some discipline by those who start a thread. I tried establishing this as common practice on some mailing lists, but even there it did not work anymore after a short while... Also, somebody has to introduce/explain the 'concept' on news... We'll see. So we're going to flood the mother of all Python sources? ;-) BTW, did you notice: it's getting complicated to handle the would-be- PATTERN-SIG-interests (partly on other lists) and PYTHON-META-SIG and 'META-PATTERN-SIG' addresses...? Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Wed Apr 2 12:27:09 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 13:27:09 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd In-Reply-To: <199704011808.TAA00947@stork.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <199704011808.TAA00947@stork.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199704021226.MAA01902@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Geoffrey Furnish wrote: > I like this new one a /lot/ more, mostly because it is dramatically > shorter. However, it still contains a lot of unnecessary verbage > relating to time management and professional advice. I would like to > see much of that chopped, just as indicated in my former post. By > that point the charter would be getting /really/ short, so perhaps it > would be okay to actually /add/ some additional technical content. > > > Proposal: Pattern-SIG Mission Statement (#2) > > > > PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with > > emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. Once again, I am extremely sorry in case anybody else feels offended the way Geoffrey does. I agree with most of his criticism, although it's sometimes quite tough, but that's ok. After all, that's how you learn. ;-) Again, this proposal was just that: a proposal. I know it was not perfect at all, but I also wonder why it took 2-3 weeks to get a comment like this? It's true that wording is very important, but then, we're dealing with a would-be SIG's Majordomo mailing list's 'mission statement' rather than with the UN Charter. Part of the reason for Geoffrey's critique is indeed that when writing the first draft of this statement, I had too much in mind those of the pattern community that have no idea of Python (yet). I still hope the Python community is gladly embracing people that can bring something of value to them as well as vice versa. And for whatever further activities between both, I wish not to be proven wrong on this point. Regards, Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From guido@monty.cnri.reston.va.us Wed Apr 2 13:59:10 1997 From: guido@monty.cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 08:59:10 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Apr 1997 12:59:06 +0100." <199704021159.LAA01734@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <199704021159.LAA01734@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199704021359.IAA17165@monty> It's time to *create* the pattern sig so meta-sig can rest in peace again. The charter is fine. Barry, go for it! --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Thu Apr 3 05:19:14 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:19:14 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is all the lists get subscribed. -g -----Original Message----- From: List Archive Manager [SMTP:list-manager@reference.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 1997 8:19 PM To: db-sig-owner@python.org Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: db-sig By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. The Internet community (and subscribers of this mailing list) can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L@indnet.bgsu.ed u If you want us to archive the above mentioned lists, please reply to this message. Include in your reply the names of the lists that you would like us to archive. Also, if there are other lists that you manage and would like to have archived, include their names also. If any of the lists are being gatewayed to usenet news, please mention the name of the group. Please do *NOT* subscribe list-manager@Reference.COM to any of the lists (list-manager is the alias for the person managing mailing list subscriptions). Should you have any questions regarding the service, please contact us at list-manager@Reference.COM. If we do not hear from you, we will assume that you do NOT want your lists archived and we will NOT subscribe to them. Thanks for your consideration. ====================================================================== InReference, Inc. 155A Moffett Park Drive, Suite 210 http://www.Reference.COM Sunnyvale, CA 94089 +1 408 541 7633 ====================================================================== Q: How much will users have to pay to get to the data I'm supplying you for free? A: Zero, nada, zilch. Not now, not ever. We will make our money by including ads on the web page, much like other free services do today. Someday we may add premium services that will include an additional charge, but the base services will always be free to the end user. Q: Just who are you? A: We are a small startup located in Silicon Valley. Our access to database technology from Oracle, hardware from Sun, and high speed Internet access from Pacific Bell gives us a unique edge. Our technical team includes Eric Allman, the creator/developer of sendmail and Professor Hector Garcia-Molina, head of the Digital Library Project at Stanford University. Q: How will people access your service? A: Queries can be submitted and the results retrieved via the web (http://www.reference.com) or by e-mail. See our home page for details. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Thu Apr 3 11:28:26 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 97 13:28:26 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704031128.LAA04740@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Greg Stein wrote: > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > all the lists get subscribed. Absolutely! InReference is trying to archive everything they can get. I think it's a follow-up of the former Stanford Infor- mation Filtering Tool (SIFT). For the Python community's SIGs this is maybe exactly what is needed as the famous DN locator works only for netnews as it seems. I think we'll have to accept some ads on their pages, but well... Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Thu Apr 3 13:36:35 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:36:35 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> (message from Greg Stein on Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:19:14 -0800) Message-ID: <9704031336.AA07369@arnold.image.ivab.se> > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > all the lists get subscribed. Agreed (with the exception of python-help). Will the meta-sig coordinator take upon himself to send them the relevant lists? Or should we mumble and grumble and say "hey, only if you promise to use Python in your system"... Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) > Our technical team includes Eric Allman, the creator/developer of > sendmail This reminds me of one of my favourite antipatterns, which is related to both sendmail and Python, in a way: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CustomizationViaProgramming (the 2nd edition of that ORA book he mentions is 1070 pages! ;-) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Apr 3 16:03:15 1997 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 11:03:15 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:19:14 PST." <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > all the lists get subscribed. Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's FindMail. What happened to that? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From klm@python.org Thu Apr 3 18:53:45 1997 From: klm@python.org (Ken Manheimer) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:53:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > > all the lists get subscribed. Me too - i agree that we should have most of the lists available to InReference, certainly excluding python-help, just as we do with findmail.com. Question is, what about psa-members? I kinda like the idea of making the traffic on psa-members available to non-members via the archivers, but only available via direct subscription to actual PSA members. Would seeing the traffic only after it's been delivered to members be more or less incentive to join? Or is the psa-members list supposed to be a members-only channel for top-secret stuff? (Yeah, right.) What do others think? > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's > FindMail. What happened to that? Findmail is in operation, in fact, we employ it's services on the locator and sig pages. But it still seems to not quite be a published, public utility. Don't know what the situation is... Ken Manheimer klm@cnri.reston.va.us 703 620-8990 x268 (orporation for National Research |nitiatives # If you appreciate Python, consider joining the PSA! # # . # _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Apr 3 19:39:24 1997 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:39:24 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:53:45 EST." References: Message-ID: <199704031939.OAA25677@monty> > Question is, what about psa-members? I kinda like the idea of making > the traffic on psa-members available to non-members via the archivers, > but only available via direct subscription to actual PSA members. Would > seeing the traffic only after it's been delivered to members be more or > less incentive to join? Or is the psa-members list supposed to be a > members-only channel for top-secret stuff? (Yeah, right.) What do > others think? It is not a public mailing list and should not be archived this way. Anyway, nothing important happens there so it's not worth spending much time on. > > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's > > FindMail. What happened to that? > > Findmail is in operation, in fact, we employ it's services on the > locator and sig pages. But it still seems to not quite be a published, > public utility. Don't know what the situation is... In fact, it seems they've got only a small set of lists archived so far... Sounds like someone stopped working on it. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From mclay@nist.gov Thu Apr 3 18:34:06 1997 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:34:06 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> References: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> Message-ID: <199704031834.NAA18134@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Guido van Rossum writes: > > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > > all the lists get subscribed. > > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's > FindMail. What happened to that? The Python archive is at http://www.findmail.com/listsaver/python-list.html I like the chart of messges per month. March had 1349 messages. Here's the full history. Messages by Month: Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1997 1002 1262 1349 164 1996 741 459 479 557 486 643 609 1040 957 931 1093 701 1995 257 249 272 241 372 501 379 467 436 499 1994 76 189 327 424 341 282 208 258 329 454 538 296 1993 15 20 20 14 46 29 40 23 63 119 101 100 1992 20 30 23 14 12 29 58 20 9 3 4 24 1991 4 65 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Fri Apr 4 00:38:07 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:38:07 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B450@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> oh geez. 1349 per month? no wonder I haven't been able to keep up... It was easy two years ago :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael McLay [SMTP:mclay@nist.gov] > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 1997 10:34 AM > To: meta-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing > lists > > Guido van Rossum writes: > > > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > > > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My > vote is > > > all the lists get subscribed. > > > > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott > Hassan's > > FindMail. What happened to that? > > The Python archive is at > http://www.findmail.com/listsaver/python-list.html > > I like the chart of messges per month. March had 1349 messages. > Here's the full history. > > Messages by Month: > Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec > 1997 1002 1262 1349 164 > 1996 741 459 479 557 486 643 609 1040 957 931 1093 701 > 1995 257 249 272 241 372 501 379 467 436 499 > 1994 76 189 327 424 341 282 208 258 329 454 538 296 > 1993 15 20 20 14 46 29 40 23 63 119 101 100 > 1992 20 30 23 14 12 29 58 20 9 3 4 24 > 1991 4 65 > > _______________ > META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists > > send messages to: meta-sig@python.org > administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org > _______________ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Fri Apr 4 21:00:22 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:00:22 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B470@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> It appears there is consensus. Barry - could you extract the appropriate set of lists and forward them to InReference (per the attached email) ? If you're a bit busy, just let us know and we'll find a volunteer... -g ----- Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> From: Greg Stein To: "'meta-sig@python.org'" Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:19:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.8) Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is all the lists get subscribed. -g -----Original Message----- From: List Archive Manager [SMTP:list-manager@reference.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 1997 8:19 PM To: db-sig-owner@python.org Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: db-sig By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. The Internet community (and subscribers of this mailing list) can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L@indnet.bgsu.ed u If you want us to archive the above mentioned lists, please reply to this message. Include in your reply the names of the lists that you would like us to archive. Also, if there are other lists that you manage and would like to have archived, include their names also. If any of the lists are being gatewayed to usenet news, please mention the name of the group. Please do *NOT* subscribe list-manager@Reference.COM to any of the lists (list-manager is the alias for the person managing mailing list subscriptions). Should you have any questions regarding the service, please contact us at list-manager@Reference.COM. If we do not hear from you, we will assume that you do NOT want your lists archived and we will NOT subscribe to them. Thanks for your consideration. ====================================================================== InReference, Inc. 155A Moffett Park Drive, Suite 210 http://www.Reference.COM Sunnyvale, CA 94089 +1 408 541 7633 ====================================================================== Q: How much will users have to pay to get to the data I'm supplying you for free? A: Zero, nada, zilch. Not now, not ever. We will make our money by including ads on the web page, much like other free services do today. Someday we may add premium services that will include an additional charge, but the base services will always be free to the end user. Q: Just who are you? A: We are a small startup located in Silicon Valley. Our access to database technology from Oracle, hardware from Sun, and high speed Internet access from Pacific Bell gives us a unique edge. Our technical team includes Eric Allman, the creator/developer of sendmail and Professor Hector Garcia-Molina, head of the Digital Library Project at Stanford University. Q: How will people access your service? A: Queries can be submitted and the results retrieved via the web (http://www.reference.com) or by e-mail. See our home page for details. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From klm@python.org Fri Apr 4 21:21:48 1997 From: klm@python.org (Ken Manheimer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:21:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B470@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Greg Stein wrote: > It appears there is consensus. Barry - could you extract the appropriate > set of lists and forward them to InReference (per the attached email) ? > If you're a bit busy, just let us know and we'll find a volunteer... One other thing - it would be nice to check about their obtaining archives of prior traffic, if they haven't already done so... Ken _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From janssen@parc.xerox.com Sat Apr 5 01:34:35 1997 From: janssen@parc.xerox.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:34:35 PST Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd suggest having more than one of these archive maintainers, in case one of them goes out of business. I'll check with Scott about findmail.com and see what's up. I owe him a copy of the ILU archive anyway... Bill _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Sat Apr 5 14:15:38 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 97 16:15:38 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199704051415.OAA11102@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Ken wrote: > One other thing - it would be nice to check about their obtaining > archives of prior traffic, if they haven't already done so... >From what I know they do, but it might depend on the type of mailing list and its 'ease of access'. Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" Message-ID: <199704051959.OAA02301@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> --AbV4xFHVL2luso/E1QjQBYX9u5NVIRkTprZioXTt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>> "GS" == Greg Stein writes: GS> It appears there is consensus. Barry - could you extract the GS> appropriate set of lists and forward them to InReference (per GS> the attached email) ? If you're a bit busy, just let us know GS> and we'll find a volunteer... Here are the sigs I think they should archive. If you have any changes to the list, let me know soon. I'll probably send InReference the list sometime Monday. -Barry --AbV4xFHVL2luso/E1QjQBYX9u5NVIRkTprZioXTt Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline; filename="lists" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit db-sig SIG on Tabular Databases in Python do-sig SIG for Distributed Object programming in Python doc-sig SIG for the Python Documentation Project efactory-sig SIG on using Python for Factory Automation gui-sig SIG on Graphical User Interfaces for Python image-sig SIG on Image Processing with Python locator-sig SIG about a Python Locator for resource discovery matrix-sig SIG for Built-in Matrix Types in Python meta-sig SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists objc-sig SIG on Python bindings for Objective-C/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep progenv-sig SIG for Python programming-environment issues pythonmac-sig SIG on Python for the Apple Macintosh pythonwin-sig SIG on Win95/NT/3.1 GUI version of Python string-sig SIG for Enhanced String Processing in Python tkbrowser-sig SIG on Building Tk-based Web Browsers web-sig SIG on Python and the World Wide Web --AbV4xFHVL2luso/E1QjQBYX9u5NVIRkTprZioXTt-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Sat Apr 5 20:10:13 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 22:10:13 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: <199704051959.OAA02301@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> (bwarsaw@CNRI.Reston.Va.US) Message-ID: <9704052010.AA11025@arnold.image.ivab.se> > Here are the sigs I think they should archive. If you have any > changes to the list, let me know soon. I would add: c++-sig and remove: efactory-sig (it's no longer on the SIGS page; is it still active?) Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From majordomo-owner@python.org Mon Apr 7 17:19:17 1997 From: majordomo-owner@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:19:17 -0400 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Message-ID: <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> --8DeKDI0ADa7dicLJKr6meYUGDEWcN2lKggGjY7p8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am the Majordomo manager of the Python Software Activity (PSA) mailing lists, distributed by the python.org domain. Several of our mailing list owners have received messages requesting that their lists be archived by InReference. Note that each of our mailing lists is managed separately by that list's "champion". I manage the infrastructure that these lists live in. The PSA supports your efforts to archive our lists, so to make life easier for you, we've compiled the set of currently active mailing lists that we'd like you to archive. All of these lists are accessible @python.org and all have the standard Majordomo configuration. Please feel free to begin archiving these lists at your earliest convenience. We've also been keeping raw archives of all past traffic on these lists. Your archives would be more complete if they contained this historical information, so we'd like those files available to you as well. Actually, you can already get all these archives via Majordomo or ftp, but if this isn't convenient for you, let us know and we'll arrange another way for you to get these old archives. Thanks very much. If you have any questions or problems feel free to reply to this message. Please let us know when the archives are active so we can make the appropriate announcements. -Barry Barry A. Warsaw Corp. for Nat'l Research Initiatives (CNRI) bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us 1895 Preston White Drive, Suite 100 bwarsaw@python.org Reston, VA USA 20191-5434 http://www.python.org/~bwarsaw 703.620.8990 / (fax) 703.620.0913 --8DeKDI0ADa7dicLJKr6meYUGDEWcN2lKggGjY7p8 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Description: List of lists to archive Content-Disposition: inline; filename="foo.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit c++-sig SIG for Development of a C++ Binding to Python db-sig SIG on Tabular Databases in Python do-sig SIG for Distributed Object programming in Python doc-sig SIG for the Python Documentation Project gui-sig SIG on Graphical User Interfaces for Python image-sig SIG on Image Processing with Python locator-sig SIG about a Python Locator for resource discovery matrix-sig SIG for Built-in Matrix Types in Python meta-sig SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists objc-sig SIG on Python bindings for Objective-C/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep progenv-sig SIG for Python programming-environment issues pythonmac-sig SIG on Python for the Apple Macintosh pythonwin-sig SIG on Win95/NT/3.1 GUI version of Python string-sig SIG for Enhanced String Processing in Python tkbrowser-sig SIG on Building Tk-based Web Browsers web-sig SIG on Python and the World Wide Web --8DeKDI0ADa7dicLJKr6meYUGDEWcN2lKggGjY7p8-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Mon Apr 7 20:15:07 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:15:07 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B492@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Woo hoo! You rule :-) -g -----Original Message----- From: Barry A. Warsaw [SMTP:bwarsaw@CNRI.Reston.Va.US] Sent: Monday, April 07, 1997 9:19 AM To: list-manager@reference.com Cc: meta-sig@python.org Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Hello, I am the Majordomo manager of the Python Software Activity (PSA) mailing lists, distributed by the python.org domain. Several of our mailing list owners have received messages requesting that their lists be archived by InReference. Note that each of our mailing lists is managed separately by that list's "champion". I manage the infrastructure that these lists live in. The PSA supports your efforts to archive our lists, so to make life easier for you, we've compiled the set of currently active mailing lists that we'd like you to archive. All of these lists are accessible @python.org and all have the standard Majordomo configuration. Please feel free to begin archiving these lists at your earliest convenience. We've also been keeping raw archives of all past traffic on these lists. Your archives would be more complete if they contained this historical information, so we'd like those files available to you as well. Actually, you can already get all these archives via Majordomo or ftp, but if this isn't convenient for you, let us know and we'll arrange another way for you to get these old archives. Thanks very much. If you have any questions or problems feel free to reply to this message. Please let us know when the archives are active so we can make the appropriate announcements. -Barry Barry A. Warsaw Corp. for Nat'l Research Initiatives (CNRI) bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us 1895 Preston White Drive, Suite 100 bwarsaw@python.org Reston, VA USA 20191-5434 http://www.python.org/~bwarsaw 703.620.8990 / (fax) 703.620.0913 << File: List of lists to archive >> _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From majordomo-owner@python.org Tue Apr 8 23:05:29 1997 From: majordomo-owner@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:05:29 -0400 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] forwarded message from Quyen Lam Message-ID: <199704082205.SAA01430@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> This is a forwarded message, MIME encapsulation. --LBbd9kiJwQ5P5XoHxF0DsdcFAvKwwxTXPHv7qZ6i Return-Path: qxl@reference.com Received: from bilbo.reference.com (bilbo.reference.com [207.105.31.24]) by python.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid RAA18469 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bilbo.reference.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bilbo.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA09327 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704082142.OAA09327@bilbo.reference.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Quyen Lam To: majordomo-owner@python.org Subject: Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 14:42:51 -0700 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 Hi, > I am the Majordomo manager of the Python Software Activity (PSA) > mailing lists, distributed by the python.org domain. Several of our > mailing list owners have received messages requesting that their lists > be archived by InReference. Note that each of our mailing lists is > managed separately by that list's "champion". I manage the > infrastructure that these lists live in. > > The PSA supports your efforts to archive our lists, so to make life > easier for you, we've compiled the set of currently active mailing > lists that we'd like you to archive. All of these lists are > accessible @python.org and all have the standard Majordomo > configuration. Please feel free to begin archiving these lists at > your earliest convenience. > > We've also been keeping raw archives of all past traffic on these > lists. Your archives would be more complete if they contained this > historical information, so we'd like those files available to you as > well. Actually, you can already get all these archives via Majordomo > or ftp, but if this isn't convenient for you, let us know and we'll > arrange another way for you to get these old archives. > > Thanks very much. If you have any questions or problems feel free to > reply to this message. Please let us know when the archives are > active so we can make the appropriate announcements. Thank you for your positive response. Our system is not set-up to backtrack and archive past messages and reflect the original posting dates. However, all messages sent to the subscription address, different for each list, will be archived. So in this case, it is might/might not be beneficial to archive past messages. And I will notify you and the individual list owner when the lists are archived. -- Quyen InReference Staff. --LBbd9kiJwQ5P5XoHxF0DsdcFAvKwwxTXPHv7qZ6i-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From majordomo-owner@python.org Tue Apr 8 23:04:52 1997 From: majordomo-owner@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:04:52 -0400 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists References: <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <199704082142.OAA09327@bilbo.reference.com> Message-ID: <199704082204.SAA01428@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> You> Thank you for your positive response. Our system is not You> set-up to backtrack and archive past messages and reflect the You> original posting dates. Hmm, the archives are just one big Unix mail format file with all the original messages and headers appended. All the information is in the file, so if you grok individual email messages you should be able to grok the big file (or just split it and feed each individual file to your indexer). You> However, all messages sent to the subscription address, You> different for each list, will be archived. So in this case, You> it is might/might not be beneficial to archive past messages. I still think it would be beneficial but you might not be set up for it yet. Hopefully someday you will and then we can arrange to get you the old files. You> And I will notify you and the individual list owner when the You> lists are archived. Cool, thanks. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Sun Apr 13 22:17:49 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:17:49 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] patterns, patterns, patterns... Message-ID: <9704132117.AA04478@arnold.image.ivab.se> Look what I found: http://www-dse.doc.ic.ac.uk/~np2/patterns/tcl/index.html Any news on the *Python* patterns-sig front? Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" Message-ID: <199704140013.UAA05614@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> >>>>> "FL" == Fredrik Lundh writes: FL> Any news on the *Python* patterns-sig front? Yes, the infrastructure's all in place, and Dinu's been notified. He's going to check things out from his end and make sure it's satisfactory, then I expect him to make the appropriate announcements. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:33:15 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:33:15 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190133.SAA11329@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: c++-sig db-sig do-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=c%2b%2b-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=db-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=do-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:39:34 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:39:34 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190139.SAA11614@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: gui-sig locator-sig matrix-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=gui-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=locator-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=matrix-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:47:21 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:47:21 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190147.SAA12161@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: meta-sig objc-sig progenv-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1996 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=meta-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=objc-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=progenv-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:52:54 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:52:54 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190152.SAA12598@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: string-sig web-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=string-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=web-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Tue Apr 1 12:07:36 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 97 13:07:36 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd In-Reply-To: <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Hello all, back from Easter vacation I see a bursting mailbox indicating that we are moving again a little bit on the python pattern issue. Marc has added to the initial proposal w/o knowing of the one I sent to Barry just before last weekend. I am sorry I did not spread it further. Following Barry's suggestions, it's much more concise now and less fuzzy. Also, it names some deliverables to head for. Read yourself below! Now some general comments of mine. To me it seems there is a certain misunderstanding. Some people in the PSA believe that the would-be SIG's main goal is discussion. That's not the way I see it. Clearly, a SIG's goal should be to 'do' something and produce 'results', visible to all. I think we all agree on this. To do this we also need to discuss, of course. The problem comes when determining how to do both most appropriately. IMHO, netnews is simply less suited for having a well-controlled communication than a mailing list. I think you know all the reasons for that, so I don't repeat them here. But one I want to stress is that if you work together at something and you must exchange material (sources, docs) netnews is certainly a pain. This is why I started playing with BSCW. I see BSCW as a good tool to work together and a mailing list as a good tool to discuss about one's work. Not more and not less. Barry writes: > [...] I'm a > little worried about its experimental nature and it less-than-open > policy: > > "So, there are wuite sone "don't do's" like: don't do any serious > work with it, don't create other, personal workspaces, don't > upload huge files and don't invite the whole Python community." > > If BSCW were to be an intergral part of PatternSIG, it ought to be > open to any member of the SIG, which is potentially open to anybody. Well, this was not meant to create an elitist place, of course. All I tried to say was that it's running on my machine (not running 365 days a year) and I think nobody likes if people upload plenty of stuff on his box w/o reason. Also, BSCW's access model is not finished yet, so the best thing to do would be to establish public and private work- spaces reflecting a division into a stable library and a brittle repository of whatever we gather. Responding to Fred, yes, I am interested in becoming the SIG's shephard, although I might change position/location in the very near future, but that should affect things only temporary, I guess. Also, I think Fredrik showed interest and I know he's using patterns a lot, so maybe a joint effort would be in order? I must add one final remark. I see this would-be SIG in several ways as an attempt of bringing two communities closer to each other (patterns and Python) with quite some potential benefit for both. In fact, the whole idea started out in the pattern community ;-) ... more on this later. But as in software design you must provide clean and concise interfaces between different components. And I don't see this happen with sticking to a netnews-based communication. What can I tell pattern heroes? To start using Python and look into comp.lang.python because .5% of the traffic deals with patterns implemented in Python? Not really, isn't it? Cheers, Dinu PS: Sorry, if you receive this mail twice. Proposal: Pattern-SIG Mission Statement (#2) PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing issues related to using design techniques and practices together with Python. These concepts range from the small- scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to medium-scale design patterns, usually comprising entities of several classes, to large-scale designs based on frameworks, often combining several patterns themselves. By doing that we emphasize questions and issues, not to be learned from the study of a programming language alone, but only from the interaction with its users' experience and projects. We do believe that there is valuable design experience to be communicated on several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to see that happen here. We are interested in what patterns have emerged within the Python community, we are curious to see if these are similar to those developed by others and we'd like you be aware that you probably are already using patterns, but that it makes much sense to be aware about them for your own benefit and for that of others. If you've been using design patterns conscious- ly, even better. We want to know about your experience and talk about patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of- Four (GOF). Please share your experience with us! Apart from discussing on this list, the PATTERN-SIG will collect and collate common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks of the trade, of general use to the Python community. Its mission is to produce a set of well-indexed Web pages that Python pro- grammers can use as reference material for their own projects. In order to do so, we will use whatever tools seem appropriate to collaboratively develop the material to be presented later. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From furnish@laura.llnl.gov Tue Apr 1 17:46:07 1997 From: furnish@laura.llnl.gov (Geoffrey Furnish) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:46:07 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- mission statement In-Reply-To: <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199704011751.MAA29628@python.org> lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de writes: > Ok, I'll give it another try. I inserted one more sentence in the > mission statement that Dinu originally posted. Hope that fixes the > 'fluffy clouds' critique put forward by Barry. > > Comments anyone ? Okay, I will pipe up. I was generally unimpressed with last weeks dialog which put Barry on the defensive owing to the attitudes of the Pattern SIG proponents. Finally, this note has pushed me over the edge. Here is my view of what is proposed. I find this mission statement to be drivvel-ridden, excessively loquacious, and generally poor. The SIG charter is not a place for advocacty or one-upsmanship. To "help" out, here is my blow by blow critique of the mission statement. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pattern-SIG Mission Statement > > PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with > emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. Excellent start. > This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing > issues related to using design techniques and practices > together with Python. Good. > The people who initiated this forum > simply believe that for various reasons Python is a wonderful > language that makes implementing and thinking about > higher-level design concepts very easy. I do not need to read Python advocacy. Chop this sentence. > These concepts range > from the small-scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to > medium-scale design patterns, usually comprising entities of > several classes, to large-scale designs based on frameworks, > often combining several patterns themselves. I generally approve of the point, but it should be stated with half as many words. > Some of the > reasons for believing in Python's appropriateness for this > programming-in-the-large area are the following ones. Python Advocacy. Chop this. > is fully dynamically typed, which reduces the need to declare > variables to zero. Total nonsense. > Python code can therefore be typed much > faster allowing for playing with the design, something rather > impossible to do with statically typed languages. Complete garbage. This is wrong, and offensive. > Being based > on indentation, Python's syntax is minimalistic and clean, > making it easy to read (and write) code and recognize > structures even when produced by others. True, but totally irrelevant to the issue of programming with patterns. Chop it. > Python is fully > object-oriented and lends itself much more to designing real > systems that do scale far better than any other bastardized > version of (so-called) object-oriented scripted languages. Worthless posturing, offensive, evidence of prejudicial pig-headedness, etc. Chop it. > Python can be regarded as a pretty ideal candidate for a > first language, making it easy to bundle design concepts like > those incorporated by patterns and frameworks right from the > start into developers and projects. Unnecessary advocacy. Chop it. > On this list we want to discuss along the lines of "Python > applied to higher-level design of programs", emphasizing > questions and issues, Good start, ... > not to be learned from the study of a > programming language alone, but only from the interaction > with its users' experience and projects. but rotten end. Preachy, chop it. > We do believe that > there is valuable design experience to be communicated on > several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to > see that happen here. Redundant, but otherwise non offensive. (But chop "we do believe believe"). > Mastering a given language is just one > part of the equation. Accessing a body of established design > knowledge is the other one. People do not read charter statements for professional nannyisms. Chop this stuff. > To get things going people contributing here should revisit > their projects, either mentally or even in code, perhaps, and > ask themselves what it is they learned in a specific case, > how they solved a situation, what trick they used and, of > course, how this could be reproduced by them or others in a > useful way. People do not need you to tell them how to manage their time in order to participate constructively in a discussion forum. Instead say something like: Participants are invited to share design lessons learned in the course of Python projects, canonical design patterns (especially if expressed in Python source code), and the like. > More to the point, we are interested in what > patterns have emerged within the Python community, we are Redundant but otherwise non offensive. > curious to see if these are similar to those developed by Unnecessary. > others and we'd like you be aware that you probably are You need to drop the patronizing tone, people hate it. > already using patterns, but that it makes much sense to be > aware about them for your own benefit and for that of others. Is this a guilt trip or altruism? It is very hard to tell which. Chop it. > If you've been using design patterns consciously, even > better. We want to know about your experience and talk about > patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of-Four > (GOF). Please share your experience with us! Again, redundant but otherwise non offensive. > [...] The rest continues with the run on verbage, but did not seem otherwise offensive. Bottom line: I like the idea of the Pattern Sig, I absolutely loathe the billing it would get with this charter. Chop it way way down, cut all the 'tudinal tone, and stick to professional sounding, positively motivated, fact-oriented statements. The whole first part (the part I quoted and commented on) should be able to fit succinctly into two paragraphs of non offensive technical prose, without attempting to preach Python, bash alternatives, or schoolmaster the ignorant. If you can put together a charter statement that doesn't make me wanna scream when I read it, then I will be a suporter of the formation of the SIG. -- Geoffrey Furnish email: furnish@llnl.gov LLNL X/ICF phone: 510-424-4227 fax: 510-423-0925 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From furnish@laura.llnl.gov Tue Apr 1 18:08:50 1997 From: furnish@laura.llnl.gov (Geoffrey Furnish) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:08:50 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd In-Reply-To: <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199704011812.NAA29778@python.org> Dinu Gherman writes: > Hello all, > > back from Easter vacation I see a bursting mailbox indicating > that we are moving again a little bit on the python pattern > issue. Marc has added to the initial proposal w/o knowing of > the one I sent to Barry just before last weekend. I am sorry > I did not spread it further. Following Barry's suggestions, > it's much more concise now and less fuzzy. Also, it names > some deliverables to head for. Read yourself below! I like this new one a /lot/ more, mostly because it is dramatically shorter. However, it still contains a lot of unnecessary verbage relating to time management and professional advice. I would like to see much of that chopped, just as indicated in my former post. By that point the charter would be getting /really/ short, so perhaps it would be okay to actually /add/ some additional technical content. > Proposal: Pattern-SIG Mission Statement (#2) > > PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with > emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. > > This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing > issues related to using design techniques and practices > together with Python. These concepts range from the small- > scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to medium-scale design > patterns, usually comprising entities of several classes, to > large-scale designs based on frameworks, often combining > several patterns themselves. By doing that we emphasize > questions and issues, not to be learned from the study of a > programming language alone, but only from the interaction > with its users' experience and projects. We do believe that > there is valuable design experience to be communicated on > several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to > see that happen here. > > We are interested in what patterns have emerged within the > Python community, we are curious to see if these are similar > to those developed by others and we'd like you be aware that > you probably are already using patterns, but that it makes > much sense to be aware about them for your own benefit and for > that of others. If you've been using design patterns conscious- > ly, even better. We want to know about your experience and talk > about patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of- > Four (GOF). Please share your experience with us! > > Apart from discussing on this list, the PATTERN-SIG will collect > and collate common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks of > the trade, of general use to the Python community. Its mission > is to produce a set of well-indexed Web pages that Python pro- > grammers can use as reference material for their own projects. > In order to do so, we will use whatever tools seem appropriate > to collaboratively develop the material to be presented later. > > _______________ > META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists > > send messages to: meta-sig@python.org > administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org > _______________ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Tue Apr 1 12:58:42 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 14:58:42 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> Michael McLay wrote: > > lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de writes: > > Hmm. I had a look at the two links you mentioned. Digital Creations > > stuff look for talk'ing with your Browser, but doesn't seem to offer > > a way to organize files and related stuff. The other site looks > > somewhat unprofessional, but seems to support file upload. > > In what sense did you see it as unprofessional? First, its user interface doesn't look too professional (compared to DigiCools and BSCW) and then there are so many posting in the docs area about bugs, enhancements and changes to the core functions, that it doesn't give a good feeling of continuity... [apart from it using frames, which a tool meant for a greater public should not count on] > > No, that's why I asked to consider installing a BSCW server at > > www.python.org. > > Ok, how do we get the code to see about doing a local installation. > Ken Manheimer will need to do the work, so he'll need to become > familiar with it. (Part of the reason that having Jim do this might > be more realistic is that Ken may not have time to do this task. > Having Jim do it will be a freebe to the PSA, but Jim will probably > want to use his own code since he is familiar with it. You can download it from http://bscw.gmd.de. Installation is pretty easy... If you just want to get used to it, try the sample workspace area at the BSCW site. > > Well, we might agree on some common subject prefix, to easily > > recognize the postings, say [META-PATTERN-SIG] ?! > > That would be fine. Ok, then we can start doing some real work now. Hmm. First assignment: gather all hints, tricks, etc. you can find around the net and post them under the subject '[META-PATTERN-SIG] hints and tricks' ! Please always mail cc: to either Dinu or me, so that we can work out a well formatted collection. (This doesn't mean that I'll forget about the idea of having a REAL pattern-sig though ;-) -- cheers, Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Tue Apr 1 19:33:57 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 21:33:57 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <33416325.75C30B40@uni-duesseldorf.de> Geoffrey Furnish wrote: > > Dinu Gherman writes: > > Hello all, > > > > back from Easter vacation I see a bursting mailbox indicating > > that we are moving again a little bit on the python pattern > > issue. Marc has added to the initial proposal w/o knowing of > > the one I sent to Barry just before last weekend. I am sorry > > I did not spread it further. Following Barry's suggestions, > > it's much more concise now and less fuzzy. Also, it names > > some deliverables to head for. Read yourself below! > > I like this new one a /lot/ more, mostly because it is dramatically > shorter. However, it still contains a lot of unnecessary verbage > relating to time management and professional advice. I would like to > see much of that chopped, just as indicated in my former post. By > that point the charter would be getting /really/ short, so perhaps it > would be okay to actually /add/ some additional technical content. [put your favourite flame against non-constructive criticism here] Well then... go ahead... we're all listening... -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From tismer@tismer.com Wed Apr 2 09:32:20 1997 From: tismer@tismer.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:32:20 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <334227A3.2537@tismer.com> Hi all, I have a proposal. Amongst the discussion, Michael McLay wrote: > > Ok, how do we get the code to see about doing a local installation. > > Ken Manheimer will need to do the work, so he'll need to become > > familiar with it. (Part of the reason that having Jim do this might > > be more realistic is that Ken may not have time to do this task. > > Having Jim do it will be a freebe to the PSA, but Jim will probably > > want to use his own code since he is familiar with it. What about this: We could give the BSCW a trial without loading Ken with work. I could offer to let Dinu go into my StarShip machine and install BSCW there. We can use it for the SIG as a test horse and decide later. Ken could use this installation as a sample, since he will have access to the machine, also. This would fit into the purpose of the StarShip machine which will be announced as a dedicated Python site, good for testing purposes before things go to python.org. If you find this practical, let me know. The machine exists since easter and she's idle. cheers - chris _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Wed Apr 2 09:31:48 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:31:48 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> <334227A3.2537@tismer.com> Message-ID: <33422784.458892DA@uni-duesseldorf.de> Christian Tismer wrote: > > What about this: We could give the BSCW a trial without loading Ken > with work. I could offer to let Dinu go into my StarShip machine > and install BSCW there. We can use it for the SIG as a test horse > and decide later. Ken could use this installation as a sample, > since he will have access to the machine, also. > This would fit into the purpose of the StarShip machine which will > be announced as a dedicated Python site, good for testing purposes > before things go to python.org. > > If you find this practical, let me know. The machine exists since > easter and she's idle. Sounds ok. Then we could wait until Version 3.0 of BSCW comes out and have that installed at python.org. We should agree to ONE site though... currently there are already two: the one that Dinu installed on his machine and the one at the GMD site. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Wed Apr 2 11:59:06 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 12:59:06 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig In-Reply-To: <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703310906.EAA06226@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <333FDFA7.58E7B516@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703311251.HAA06803@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <33410682.27A8701D@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199704021159.LAA01734@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > > > Well, we might agree on some common subject prefix, to easily > > > recognize the postings, say [META-PATTERN-SIG] ?! > > > > That would be fine. > > Ok, then we can start doing some real work now. Hmm. First assignment: > gather all hints, tricks, etc. you can find around the net and post > them under the subject '[META-PATTERN-SIG] hints and tricks' ! Not sure this prefix will work on news. It requires quite some discipline by those who start a thread. I tried establishing this as common practice on some mailing lists, but even there it did not work anymore after a short while... Also, somebody has to introduce/explain the 'concept' on news... We'll see. So we're going to flood the mother of all Python sources? ;-) BTW, did you notice: it's getting complicated to handle the would-be- PATTERN-SIG-interests (partly on other lists) and PYTHON-META-SIG and 'META-PATTERN-SIG' addresses...? Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Wed Apr 2 12:27:09 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 13:27:09 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] would-be pattern-sig cont'd In-Reply-To: <199704011808.TAA00947@stork.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199704011207.MAA11464@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <199704011808.TAA00947@stork.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199704021226.MAA01902@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Geoffrey Furnish wrote: > I like this new one a /lot/ more, mostly because it is dramatically > shorter. However, it still contains a lot of unnecessary verbage > relating to time management and professional advice. I would like to > see much of that chopped, just as indicated in my former post. By > that point the charter would be getting /really/ short, so perhaps it > would be okay to actually /add/ some additional technical content. > > > Proposal: Pattern-SIG Mission Statement (#2) > > > > PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with > > emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. Once again, I am extremely sorry in case anybody else feels offended the way Geoffrey does. I agree with most of his criticism, although it's sometimes quite tough, but that's ok. After all, that's how you learn. ;-) Again, this proposal was just that: a proposal. I know it was not perfect at all, but I also wonder why it took 2-3 weeks to get a comment like this? It's true that wording is very important, but then, we're dealing with a would-be SIG's Majordomo mailing list's 'mission statement' rather than with the UN Charter. Part of the reason for Geoffrey's critique is indeed that when writing the first draft of this statement, I had too much in mind those of the pattern community that have no idea of Python (yet). I still hope the Python community is gladly embracing people that can bring something of value to them as well as vice versa. And for whatever further activities between both, I wish not to be proven wrong on this point. Regards, Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From guido@monty.cnri.reston.va.us Wed Apr 2 13:59:10 1997 From: guido@monty.cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 08:59:10 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: meta-pattern-sig In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Apr 1997 12:59:06 +0100." <199704021159.LAA01734@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <199704021159.LAA01734@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199704021359.IAA17165@monty> It's time to *create* the pattern sig so meta-sig can rest in peace again. The charter is fine. Barry, go for it! --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Thu Apr 3 05:19:14 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:19:14 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is all the lists get subscribed. -g -----Original Message----- From: List Archive Manager [SMTP:list-manager@reference.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 1997 8:19 PM To: db-sig-owner@python.org Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: db-sig By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. The Internet community (and subscribers of this mailing list) can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L@indnet.bgsu.ed u If you want us to archive the above mentioned lists, please reply to this message. Include in your reply the names of the lists that you would like us to archive. Also, if there are other lists that you manage and would like to have archived, include their names also. If any of the lists are being gatewayed to usenet news, please mention the name of the group. 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See our home page for details. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Thu Apr 3 11:28:26 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 97 13:28:26 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704031128.LAA04740@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Greg Stein wrote: > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > all the lists get subscribed. Absolutely! InReference is trying to archive everything they can get. I think it's a follow-up of the former Stanford Infor- mation Filtering Tool (SIFT). For the Python community's SIGs this is maybe exactly what is needed as the famous DN locator works only for netnews as it seems. I think we'll have to accept some ads on their pages, but well... Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Thu Apr 3 13:36:35 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:36:35 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> (message from Greg Stein on Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:19:14 -0800) Message-ID: <9704031336.AA07369@arnold.image.ivab.se> > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > all the lists get subscribed. Agreed (with the exception of python-help). Will the meta-sig coordinator take upon himself to send them the relevant lists? Or should we mumble and grumble and say "hey, only if you promise to use Python in your system"... Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) > Our technical team includes Eric Allman, the creator/developer of > sendmail This reminds me of one of my favourite antipatterns, which is related to both sendmail and Python, in a way: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CustomizationViaProgramming (the 2nd edition of that ORA book he mentions is 1070 pages! ;-) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Apr 3 16:03:15 1997 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 11:03:15 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:19:14 PST." <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > all the lists get subscribed. Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's FindMail. What happened to that? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From klm@python.org Thu Apr 3 18:53:45 1997 From: klm@python.org (Ken Manheimer) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:53:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > > all the lists get subscribed. Me too - i agree that we should have most of the lists available to InReference, certainly excluding python-help, just as we do with findmail.com. Question is, what about psa-members? I kinda like the idea of making the traffic on psa-members available to non-members via the archivers, but only available via direct subscription to actual PSA members. Would seeing the traffic only after it's been delivered to members be more or less incentive to join? Or is the psa-members list supposed to be a members-only channel for top-secret stuff? (Yeah, right.) What do others think? > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's > FindMail. What happened to that? Findmail is in operation, in fact, we employ it's services on the locator and sig pages. But it still seems to not quite be a published, public utility. Don't know what the situation is... Ken Manheimer klm@cnri.reston.va.us 703 620-8990 x268 (orporation for National Research |nitiatives # If you appreciate Python, consider joining the PSA! # # . # _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Apr 3 19:39:24 1997 From: guido@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:39:24 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:53:45 EST." References: Message-ID: <199704031939.OAA25677@monty> > Question is, what about psa-members? I kinda like the idea of making > the traffic on psa-members available to non-members via the archivers, > but only available via direct subscription to actual PSA members. Would > seeing the traffic only after it's been delivered to members be more or > less incentive to join? Or is the psa-members list supposed to be a > members-only channel for top-secret stuff? (Yeah, right.) What do > others think? It is not a public mailing list and should not be archived this way. Anyway, nothing important happens there so it's not worth spending much time on. > > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's > > FindMail. What happened to that? > > Findmail is in operation, in fact, we employ it's services on the > locator and sig pages. But it still seems to not quite be a published, > public utility. Don't know what the situation is... In fact, it seems they've got only a small set of lists archived so far... Sounds like someone stopped working on it. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From mclay@nist.gov Thu Apr 3 18:34:06 1997 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:34:06 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> References: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <199704031603.LAA23844@monty> Message-ID: <199704031834.NAA18134@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Guido van Rossum writes: > > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is > > all the lists get subscribed. > > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott Hassan's > FindMail. What happened to that? The Python archive is at http://www.findmail.com/listsaver/python-list.html I like the chart of messges per month. March had 1349 messages. Here's the full history. Messages by Month: Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1997 1002 1262 1349 164 1996 741 459 479 557 486 643 609 1040 957 931 1093 701 1995 257 249 272 241 372 501 379 467 436 499 1994 76 189 327 424 341 282 208 258 329 454 538 296 1993 15 20 20 14 46 29 40 23 63 119 101 100 1992 20 30 23 14 12 29 58 20 9 3 4 24 1991 4 65 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Fri Apr 4 00:38:07 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:38:07 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B450@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> oh geez. 1349 per month? no wonder I haven't been able to keep up... It was easy two years ago :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael McLay [SMTP:mclay@nist.gov] > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 1997 10:34 AM > To: meta-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing > lists > > Guido van Rossum writes: > > > Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or > > > nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My > vote is > > > all the lists get subscribed. > > > > Mine too. BTW this looks like a direct competitor of Scott > Hassan's > > FindMail. What happened to that? > > The Python archive is at > http://www.findmail.com/listsaver/python-list.html > > I like the chart of messges per month. March had 1349 messages. > Here's the full history. > > Messages by Month: > Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec > 1997 1002 1262 1349 164 > 1996 741 459 479 557 486 643 609 1040 957 931 1093 701 > 1995 257 249 272 241 372 501 379 467 436 499 > 1994 76 189 327 424 341 282 208 258 329 454 538 296 > 1993 15 20 20 14 46 29 40 23 63 119 101 100 > 1992 20 30 23 14 12 29 58 20 9 3 4 24 > 1991 4 65 > > _______________ > META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists > > send messages to: meta-sig@python.org > administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org > _______________ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Fri Apr 4 21:00:22 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:00:22 -0800 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B470@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> It appears there is consensus. Barry - could you extract the appropriate set of lists and forward them to InReference (per the attached email) ? If you're a bit busy, just let us know and we'll find a volunteer... -g ----- Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B431@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> From: Greg Stein To: "'meta-sig@python.org'" Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FW: request to archive mailing lists Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:19:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.8) Before replying to this, I think it should probably be an "all or nothing" thing. All our lists should be subscribed, or none. My vote is all the lists get subscribed. -g -----Original Message----- From: List Archive Manager [SMTP:list-manager@reference.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 1997 8:19 PM To: db-sig-owner@python.org Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: db-sig By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. The Internet community (and subscribers of this mailing list) can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L@indnet.bgsu.ed u If you want us to archive the above mentioned lists, please reply to this message. Include in your reply the names of the lists that you would like us to archive. Also, if there are other lists that you manage and would like to have archived, include their names also. If any of the lists are being gatewayed to usenet news, please mention the name of the group. Please do *NOT* subscribe list-manager@Reference.COM to any of the lists (list-manager is the alias for the person managing mailing list subscriptions). Should you have any questions regarding the service, please contact us at list-manager@Reference.COM. If we do not hear from you, we will assume that you do NOT want your lists archived and we will NOT subscribe to them. Thanks for your consideration. ====================================================================== InReference, Inc. 155A Moffett Park Drive, Suite 210 http://www.Reference.COM Sunnyvale, CA 94089 +1 408 541 7633 ====================================================================== Q: How much will users have to pay to get to the data I'm supplying you for free? A: Zero, nada, zilch. Not now, not ever. We will make our money by including ads on the web page, much like other free services do today. Someday we may add premium services that will include an additional charge, but the base services will always be free to the end user. Q: Just who are you? A: We are a small startup located in Silicon Valley. Our access to database technology from Oracle, hardware from Sun, and high speed Internet access from Pacific Bell gives us a unique edge. Our technical team includes Eric Allman, the creator/developer of sendmail and Professor Hector Garcia-Molina, head of the Digital Library Project at Stanford University. Q: How will people access your service? A: Queries can be submitted and the results retrieved via the web (http://www.reference.com) or by e-mail. See our home page for details. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From klm@python.org Fri Apr 4 21:21:48 1997 From: klm@python.org (Ken Manheimer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:21:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B470@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Greg Stein wrote: > It appears there is consensus. Barry - could you extract the appropriate > set of lists and forward them to InReference (per the attached email) ? > If you're a bit busy, just let us know and we'll find a volunteer... One other thing - it would be nice to check about their obtaining archives of prior traffic, if they haven't already done so... Ken _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From janssen@parc.xerox.com Sat Apr 5 01:34:35 1997 From: janssen@parc.xerox.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:34:35 PST Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd suggest having more than one of these archive maintainers, in case one of them goes out of business. I'll check with Scott about findmail.com and see what's up. I owe him a copy of the ILU archive anyway... Bill _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Sat Apr 5 14:15:38 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 97 16:15:38 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199704051415.OAA11102@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Ken wrote: > One other thing - it would be nice to check about their obtaining > archives of prior traffic, if they haven't already done so... >From what I know they do, but it might depend on the type of mailing list and its 'ease of access'. Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" Message-ID: <199704051959.OAA02301@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> --AbV4xFHVL2luso/E1QjQBYX9u5NVIRkTprZioXTt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>> "GS" == Greg Stein writes: GS> It appears there is consensus. Barry - could you extract the GS> appropriate set of lists and forward them to InReference (per GS> the attached email) ? If you're a bit busy, just let us know GS> and we'll find a volunteer... Here are the sigs I think they should archive. If you have any changes to the list, let me know soon. I'll probably send InReference the list sometime Monday. -Barry --AbV4xFHVL2luso/E1QjQBYX9u5NVIRkTprZioXTt Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline; filename="lists" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit db-sig SIG on Tabular Databases in Python do-sig SIG for Distributed Object programming in Python doc-sig SIG for the Python Documentation Project efactory-sig SIG on using Python for Factory Automation gui-sig SIG on Graphical User Interfaces for Python image-sig SIG on Image Processing with Python locator-sig SIG about a Python Locator for resource discovery matrix-sig SIG for Built-in Matrix Types in Python meta-sig SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists objc-sig SIG on Python bindings for Objective-C/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep progenv-sig SIG for Python programming-environment issues pythonmac-sig SIG on Python for the Apple Macintosh pythonwin-sig SIG on Win95/NT/3.1 GUI version of Python string-sig SIG for Enhanced String Processing in Python tkbrowser-sig SIG on Building Tk-based Web Browsers web-sig SIG on Python and the World Wide Web --AbV4xFHVL2luso/E1QjQBYX9u5NVIRkTprZioXTt-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Sat Apr 5 20:10:13 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 22:10:13 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] action item In-Reply-To: <199704051959.OAA02301@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> (bwarsaw@CNRI.Reston.Va.US) Message-ID: <9704052010.AA11025@arnold.image.ivab.se> > Here are the sigs I think they should archive. If you have any > changes to the list, let me know soon. I would add: c++-sig and remove: efactory-sig (it's no longer on the SIGS page; is it still active?) Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From majordomo-owner@python.org Mon Apr 7 17:19:17 1997 From: majordomo-owner@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:19:17 -0400 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Message-ID: <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> --8DeKDI0ADa7dicLJKr6meYUGDEWcN2lKggGjY7p8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am the Majordomo manager of the Python Software Activity (PSA) mailing lists, distributed by the python.org domain. Several of our mailing list owners have received messages requesting that their lists be archived by InReference. Note that each of our mailing lists is managed separately by that list's "champion". I manage the infrastructure that these lists live in. The PSA supports your efforts to archive our lists, so to make life easier for you, we've compiled the set of currently active mailing lists that we'd like you to archive. All of these lists are accessible @python.org and all have the standard Majordomo configuration. Please feel free to begin archiving these lists at your earliest convenience. We've also been keeping raw archives of all past traffic on these lists. Your archives would be more complete if they contained this historical information, so we'd like those files available to you as well. Actually, you can already get all these archives via Majordomo or ftp, but if this isn't convenient for you, let us know and we'll arrange another way for you to get these old archives. Thanks very much. If you have any questions or problems feel free to reply to this message. Please let us know when the archives are active so we can make the appropriate announcements. -Barry Barry A. Warsaw Corp. for Nat'l Research Initiatives (CNRI) bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us 1895 Preston White Drive, Suite 100 bwarsaw@python.org Reston, VA USA 20191-5434 http://www.python.org/~bwarsaw 703.620.8990 / (fax) 703.620.0913 --8DeKDI0ADa7dicLJKr6meYUGDEWcN2lKggGjY7p8 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Description: List of lists to archive Content-Disposition: inline; filename="foo.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit c++-sig SIG for Development of a C++ Binding to Python db-sig SIG on Tabular Databases in Python do-sig SIG for Distributed Object programming in Python doc-sig SIG for the Python Documentation Project gui-sig SIG on Graphical User Interfaces for Python image-sig SIG on Image Processing with Python locator-sig SIG about a Python Locator for resource discovery matrix-sig SIG for Built-in Matrix Types in Python meta-sig SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists objc-sig SIG on Python bindings for Objective-C/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep progenv-sig SIG for Python programming-environment issues pythonmac-sig SIG on Python for the Apple Macintosh pythonwin-sig SIG on Win95/NT/3.1 GUI version of Python string-sig SIG for Enhanced String Processing in Python tkbrowser-sig SIG on Building Tk-based Web Browsers web-sig SIG on Python and the World Wide Web --8DeKDI0ADa7dicLJKr6meYUGDEWcN2lKggGjY7p8-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From gstein@microsoft.com Mon Apr 7 20:15:07 1997 From: gstein@microsoft.com (Greg Stein) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:15:07 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Message-ID: <41135C785691CF11B73B00805FD4D2D70261B492@RED-17-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Woo hoo! You rule :-) -g -----Original Message----- From: Barry A. Warsaw [SMTP:bwarsaw@CNRI.Reston.Va.US] Sent: Monday, April 07, 1997 9:19 AM To: list-manager@reference.com Cc: meta-sig@python.org Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Hello, I am the Majordomo manager of the Python Software Activity (PSA) mailing lists, distributed by the python.org domain. Several of our mailing list owners have received messages requesting that their lists be archived by InReference. Note that each of our mailing lists is managed separately by that list's "champion". I manage the infrastructure that these lists live in. The PSA supports your efforts to archive our lists, so to make life easier for you, we've compiled the set of currently active mailing lists that we'd like you to archive. All of these lists are accessible @python.org and all have the standard Majordomo configuration. Please feel free to begin archiving these lists at your earliest convenience. We've also been keeping raw archives of all past traffic on these lists. Your archives would be more complete if they contained this historical information, so we'd like those files available to you as well. Actually, you can already get all these archives via Majordomo or ftp, but if this isn't convenient for you, let us know and we'll arrange another way for you to get these old archives. Thanks very much. If you have any questions or problems feel free to reply to this message. Please let us know when the archives are active so we can make the appropriate announcements. -Barry Barry A. Warsaw Corp. for Nat'l Research Initiatives (CNRI) bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us 1895 Preston White Drive, Suite 100 bwarsaw@python.org Reston, VA USA 20191-5434 http://www.python.org/~bwarsaw 703.620.8990 / (fax) 703.620.0913 << File: List of lists to archive >> _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From majordomo-owner@python.org Tue Apr 8 23:05:29 1997 From: majordomo-owner@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:05:29 -0400 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] forwarded message from Quyen Lam Message-ID: <199704082205.SAA01430@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> This is a forwarded message, MIME encapsulation. --LBbd9kiJwQ5P5XoHxF0DsdcFAvKwwxTXPHv7qZ6i Return-Path: qxl@reference.com Received: from bilbo.reference.com (bilbo.reference.com [207.105.31.24]) by python.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid RAA18469 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bilbo.reference.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bilbo.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA09327 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704082142.OAA09327@bilbo.reference.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Quyen Lam To: majordomo-owner@python.org Subject: Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 14:42:51 -0700 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 Hi, > I am the Majordomo manager of the Python Software Activity (PSA) > mailing lists, distributed by the python.org domain. Several of our > mailing list owners have received messages requesting that their lists > be archived by InReference. Note that each of our mailing lists is > managed separately by that list's "champion". I manage the > infrastructure that these lists live in. > > The PSA supports your efforts to archive our lists, so to make life > easier for you, we've compiled the set of currently active mailing > lists that we'd like you to archive. All of these lists are > accessible @python.org and all have the standard Majordomo > configuration. Please feel free to begin archiving these lists at > your earliest convenience. > > We've also been keeping raw archives of all past traffic on these > lists. Your archives would be more complete if they contained this > historical information, so we'd like those files available to you as > well. Actually, you can already get all these archives via Majordomo > or ftp, but if this isn't convenient for you, let us know and we'll > arrange another way for you to get these old archives. > > Thanks very much. If you have any questions or problems feel free to > reply to this message. Please let us know when the archives are > active so we can make the appropriate announcements. Thank you for your positive response. Our system is not set-up to backtrack and archive past messages and reflect the original posting dates. However, all messages sent to the subscription address, different for each list, will be archived. So in this case, it is might/might not be beneficial to archive past messages. And I will notify you and the individual list owner when the lists are archived. -- Quyen InReference Staff. --LBbd9kiJwQ5P5XoHxF0DsdcFAvKwwxTXPHv7qZ6i-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From majordomo-owner@python.org Tue Apr 8 23:04:52 1997 From: majordomo-owner@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:04:52 -0400 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists References: <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <199704082142.OAA09327@bilbo.reference.com> Message-ID: <199704082204.SAA01428@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> You> Thank you for your positive response. Our system is not You> set-up to backtrack and archive past messages and reflect the You> original posting dates. Hmm, the archives are just one big Unix mail format file with all the original messages and headers appended. All the information is in the file, so if you grok individual email messages you should be able to grok the big file (or just split it and feed each individual file to your indexer). You> However, all messages sent to the subscription address, You> different for each list, will be archived. So in this case, You> it is might/might not be beneficial to archive past messages. I still think it would be beneficial but you might not be set up for it yet. Hopefully someday you will and then we can arrange to get you the old files. You> And I will notify you and the individual list owner when the You> lists are archived. Cool, thanks. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Sun Apr 13 22:17:49 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:17:49 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] patterns, patterns, patterns... Message-ID: <9704132117.AA04478@arnold.image.ivab.se> Look what I found: http://www-dse.doc.ic.ac.uk/~np2/patterns/tcl/index.html Any news on the *Python* patterns-sig front? Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" Message-ID: <199704140013.UAA05614@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> >>>>> "FL" == Fredrik Lundh writes: FL> Any news on the *Python* patterns-sig front? Yes, the infrastructure's all in place, and Dinu's been notified. He's going to check things out from his end and make sure it's satisfactory, then I expect him to make the appropriate announcements. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:33:15 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:33:15 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190133.SAA11329@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: c++-sig db-sig do-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=c%2b%2b-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=db-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=do-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:39:34 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:39:34 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190139.SAA11614@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: gui-sig locator-sig matrix-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=gui-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=locator-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=matrix-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:47:21 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:47:21 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190147.SAA12161@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: meta-sig objc-sig progenv-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1996 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=meta-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=objc-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=progenv-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From qxl@reference.com Sat Apr 19 02:52:54 1997 From: qxl@reference.com (Quyen Lam) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:52:54 -0700 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Python Software Activity Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:19:17 EDT." <199704071619.MAA11812@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199704190152.SAA12598@bilbo.reference.com> I have subscribed Reference.COM to the following lists that you manage: string-sig web-sig Visit the URLs below, and if you want to change any of the information shown, just email me the new version, and I will update our database. It would be great if you could announce the following in the list: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Apr. 16, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=string-sig@python.org http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=web-sig@python.org - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Quyen InReference Staff. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________