[melbourne-pug] melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13
Mark Mukherjee
mark.jm5 at gmail.com
Sat Jan 30 05:11:11 EST 2016
Hi,
I've tried hitting the unsubscribe link on this mailing list a number of
time, and it hasn't worked.
Can you please remove me from this mailing list?
Mark
On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 9:08 PM, <melbourne-pug-request at python.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Agile (Brian May)
> 2. Re: Agile (Ben Finney)
> 3. Re: Agile (Brian May)
> 4. Re: Agile (Kiran Busi)
> 5. Re: Agile (Aidan Lister)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:53:35 +1100
> From: Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> To: melbourne-pug at python.org
> Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID: <874mdv1rtc.fsf at prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Hello All,
>
> I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
> following explanation:
>
> "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
> technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
> hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>
> I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
> might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
> search.
>
> However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
> "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
> unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
> I haven't had the "hands on experience".
>
> i.e. in Python that would be:
>
> class Experience(object):
> ...
>
> def get_job(experience):
> required_experience = ????
> experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
> required_experience)
> while True:
> try:
> job = apply_for_job(experience)
> ...
> attend_interview(job, experience)
> ...
> return job
> except ApplicationRejected:
> pass
>
>
> def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
> while experience < required_experience:
> job = get_job(experience)
> goto_work(job)
> experience = experience + perform_job(job)
> return experience
>
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
> experience = Experience()
> while True:
> job = get_job(experience)
> try:
> while True:
> goto_work(job)
> experience = experience + perform_job(job)
> goto_home()
> goto_bed()
> except LostJob:
> pass
>
>
> Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
> stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
>
> (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
> have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
> several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
> actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
> exception)
>
> Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
> as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
> is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
> open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
> of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
> development team.
>
> I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile
> team environment"?
>
> Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:22:46 +1100
> From: Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>
> To: melbourne-pug at python.org
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID: <85si1fedkp.fsf at benfinney.id.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> writes:
>
> > I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> > convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal
> > "Agile team environment"?
>
> If they already have a requirement that you have experience working in a
> team practicing agile methodology, then I think only the actual
> experience would cut the mustard.
>
> What I think such an employer would expect is: you've done it at a
> previous role where that *wasn't* a prior requirement to get the role.
>
> So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> you'll have the experience for the next role.
>
> In other words, the employer wants to benefit from some other
> organisation having already invested in your learning and experience.
>
> > Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> > I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
>
> You're right, I believe. It is a problem: employers tend to want to be
> the beneficiary of, but not invest in, education and training of
> incoming employees.
>
> --
> \ ?Now Maggie, I?ll be watching you too, in case God is busy |
> `\ creating tornadoes or not existing.? ?Homer, _The Simpsons_ |
> _o__) |
> Ben Finney
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:56:55 +1100
> From: Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> To: Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>, melbourne-pug at python.org
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID: <87y4b7zeig.fsf at prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> writes:
>
> > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> > you'll have the experience for the next role.
>
> Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to
> invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which
> was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle.
>
> My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions
> that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big
> companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much
> advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these
> details.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:14:19 +1100
> From: Kiran Busi <kiran.busi at gmail.com>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAGcZ+8ogYC-6pG9V8Q-UzFRgCdy7UPTV68hsggZH7G4vQUFReQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Agile is really another way to get stuff done, organising a large body of
> work into regular deliverables.
>
> Why not implement a version of agile in your org you're currently working
> in now. Keep the agile principle but modify the process to suit your org
> size.
> Then next interview you can say "yes" and talk about how you modified it to
> xyz and why it made sense to do so.
>
> If you're a good dev who can ship code, and can show it an org shouldn't
> turn you away because you haven't done agile. At least it should not be the
> make it it break it decision.
>
>
> On Saturday, 30 January 2016, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:
>
> > Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au <javascript:;>> writes:
> >
> > > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> > > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> > > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> > > you'll have the experience for the next role.
> >
> > Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to
> > invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which
> > was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle.
> >
> > My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions
> > that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big
> > companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much
> > advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these
> > details.
> > --
> > Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz <javascript:;>>
> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> > _______________________________________________
> > melbourne-pug mailing list
> > melbourne-pug at python.org <javascript:;>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:18:57 +0000
> From: Aidan Lister <aidan at aba-systems.com.au>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID:
> <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=
> wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Send me your resume or GitHub! Any developer worth their chops is going to
> slot into an agile workplace in a heartbeat. People over process, we are
> just looking for great devs!
>
> Your reflection sounds like a short sighted HR level decision, unless you
> were going for a team lead role where you'd be expected to drive the agile
> processes?
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:59 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
> > following explanation:
> >
> > "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
> > technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
> > hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
> >
> > I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
> > might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
> > search.
> >
> > However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
> > "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
> > unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
> > I haven't had the "hands on experience".
> >
> > i.e. in Python that would be:
> >
> > class Experience(object):
> > ...
> >
> > def get_job(experience):
> > required_experience = ????
> > experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
> > required_experience)
> > while True:
> > try:
> > job = apply_for_job(experience)
> > ...
> > attend_interview(job, experience)
> > ...
> > return job
> > except ApplicationRejected:
> > pass
> >
> >
> > def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
> > while experience < required_experience:
> > job = get_job(experience)
> > goto_work(job)
> > experience = experience + perform_job(job)
> > return experience
> >
> >
> > if __name__ == "__main__":
> > experience = Experience()
> > while True:
> > job = get_job(experience)
> > try:
> > while True:
> > goto_work(job)
> > experience = experience + perform_job(job)
> > goto_home()
> > goto_bed()
> > except LostJob:
> > pass
> >
> >
> > Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
> > stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
> >
> > (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
> > have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
> > several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
> > actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
> > exception)
> >
> > Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
> > as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
> > is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
> > open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
> > of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
> > development team.
> >
> > I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> > convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile
> > team environment"?
> >
> > Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> > I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > --
> > Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> > _______________________________________________
> > melbourne-pug mailing list
> > melbourne-pug at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13
> **********************************************
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