From deeprave at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 09:28:32 2016
From: deeprave at gmail.com (David Nugent)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 01:28:32 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <557793.16a1e9031313a668245df8345b0ad71ad8b19fdd@popretr.messagingengine.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com>
 <557793.16a1e9031313a668245df8345b0ad71ad8b19fdd@popretr.messagingengine.com>
 <87h9huzlow.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <1454336912.915829.508455554.22D49101@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Hi Brian,

Just my 2c worth...

Like yourself, I've worked in this industry a lot of years, and
personally found that the word "agile" is very overloaded. In fact, the
term itself is just a broad methodology of incremental development that
is in no way industry specific, and it covers a few variant disciplines.

But what most call "agile" in the software industry is a discipline
called "scrum"; referring to a highly collaborative team-based approach
that follows a particular set of principles and role structure. In
practice, workplaces implement it slightly differently, with various
degrees of success, depending on the personalities and capabilities of
those involved.

While there's certainly something to be learned from adopting an agile
approach, it isn't the utopia that some make it out to be. It takes
people to drive it, and at the end of the day it's people and not the
process that gets stuff done.

> > "... as long as the candidate showed a willingness to operate in an
> > agile way."
> 
> Hmmm. Wonder if I need to be better at communicating this. Just a
> thought.
> -- 
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/


Regards,
-- 
David Nugent (deeprave at gmail.com)

From ryan.verner at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 09:04:54 2016
From: ryan.verner at gmail.com (Ryan Verner)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 01:04:54 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CAKXXGe1v34-D52tAUEwgRq-=HLb_Vr8n_nunt1TMmLCQcASx2w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:
>
>        "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>

Apologies this thread is a couple of days old; have only just seen this.

This is *bizarre* rationale; agile can be taught rapidly, years of deep
experience with technology stacks cannot.  Not hiring an ideal candidate
open to work in an agile team because they don't know it already makes no
sense.  This is either a clueless employer or they're not being honest with
their actual rationale as to why they're not hiring you.

By all means use this an an exercise to familiarise yourself more with the
methologies, but I wouldn't be taking this too literally and as a
reflection of industry expectations of other employers.

My 5c.

R
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From josh.crompton at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 20:37:46 2016
From: josh.crompton at gmail.com (Josh Crompton)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 12:37:46 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Web Application Developer role at Infoxchange
Message-ID: <CAKoVLMiFXQO_70HsHH2g=+E=JQYyNxDji5OMq8JRNCSR03XDZg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Great meeting some of you last night. I wanted to mention during the
proposed "job board" portion of the meetup that we have a role for a
Web Application Developer going at Infoxchange
(https://www.infoxchange.net.au/)--a non-profit that builds technology
for social justice.

You might have heard about Infoxchange in the news over the weekend as
we just launched an app that got a fair bit of media coverage
(https://askizzy.org.au) which helps homeless people to find support
services near them, such as emergency accommodation, legal advice or
just something to eat.

We have a small team working on a number of projects with Python,
Django, Docker, Elasticsearch and React.js. We're looking for someone
with a good level of experience in any or all of the above. If that
sounds like your cup of tea, we'd love to talk to you!

There's an ad for the position with more detail up on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/112633872 or if you prefer, you
can email recruitment at infoxchange.org

Thanks,
Josh

From sunny at mhfa.com.au  Mon Feb  1 21:10:13 2016
From: sunny at mhfa.com.au (Sunny)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 13:10:13 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CAMNOPV6dsJ-Z84RnZFujLfgyEuYSYJGHa9bCGF=0M0PdzRMAmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
> following explanation:
>
>        "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>
> I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
> might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
> search.
>
> However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
> "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
> unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
> I haven't had the "hands on experience".
>
> i.e. in Python that would be:
>
> class Experience(object):
>     ...
>
> def get_job(experience):
>     required_experience = ????
>     experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
> required_experience)
>     while True:
>         try:
>             job = apply_for_job(experience)
>             ...
>             attend_interview(job, experience)
>             ...
>             return job
>         except ApplicationRejected:
>             pass
>
>
> def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
>     while experience < required_experience:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         goto_work(job)
>         experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>     return experience
>
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     experience = Experience()
>     while True:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         try:
>             while True:
>                 goto_work(job)
>                 experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>                 goto_home()
>                 goto_bed()
>         except LostJob:
>             pass
>
>
> Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
> stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
>

Just want to add another perspective to the above code... that would have
applied too for anyone trying to get their first job, not just specifically
Agile methodology in the field of programming in python. How did you get
your first job? Are there many python work in Melbourne?

I noticed that it is a common cry from my follow mates when they try to get
a job for some income for the first time in their life. Not necessarily
whinging, but it can be a frustrated experience. How would anyone get their
first job?

Cheers!
Sunny
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From deeprave at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 06:40:19 2016
From: deeprave at gmail.com (David Nugent)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:40:19 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <557793.67a4518a6a688dd43abb9f76bf4602eb8d5ec6dd@popretr.messagingengine.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <557793.67a4518a6a688dd43abb9f76bf4602eb8d5ec6dd@popretr.messagingengine.com>
 <CAMNOPV6dsJ-Z84RnZFujLfgyEuYSYJGHa9bCGF=0M0PdzRMAmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1454413219.2715381.509488442.38D3E9B6@webmail.messagingengine.com>

> I noticed that it is a common cry from my follow mates when they try
> to get a job for some income for the first time in their life. Not
> necessarily whinging, but it can be a frustrated experience. How would
> anyone get their first job?

Hi Sunny,

This is definitely not a new problem when it comes to gaining
employment.

Sometimes, however, lack of prior experience (and associated bad habits)
can actually be an advantage if you're young (and cheap!) enough. Read
the job requirements carefully and adjust your filters accordingly.

The situation isn't as bleak as it might appear. Persistence is
what pays off.

Regards,
--
? David Nugent (dln at fastmail.com.au)
 
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From jonmmorgan at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 09:26:26 2016
From: jonmmorgan at gmail.com (Jonathan Morgan)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 01:26:26 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CAMNOPV6dsJ-Z84RnZFujLfgyEuYSYJGHa9bCGF=0M0PdzRMAmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CAMNOPV6dsJ-Z84RnZFujLfgyEuYSYJGHa9bCGF=0M0PdzRMAmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOKcO77r-89xDY=fRJ6Upi3B4_ZUNs1qCOqJQgo6jekeaQibA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Sunny,

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Sunny <sunny at mhfa.com.au> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
>> following explanation:
>>
>>        "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>>
>> I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
>> might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
>> search.
>>
>> However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
>> "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
>> unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
>> I haven't had the "hands on experience".
>>
>> i.e. in Python that would be:
>>
>> class Experience(object):
>>     ...
>>
>> def get_job(experience):
>>     required_experience = ????
>>     experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
>> required_experience)
>>     while True:
>>         try:
>>             job = apply_for_job(experience)
>>             ...
>>             attend_interview(job, experience)
>>             ...
>>             return job
>>         except ApplicationRejected:
>>             pass
>>
>>
>> def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
>>     while experience < required_experience:
>>         job = get_job(experience)
>>         goto_work(job)
>>         experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>>     return experience
>>
>>
>> if __name__ == "__main__":
>>     experience = Experience()
>>     while True:
>>         job = get_job(experience)
>>         try:
>>             while True:
>>                 goto_work(job)
>>                 experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>>                 goto_home()
>>                 goto_bed()
>>         except LostJob:
>>             pass
>>
>>
>> Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
>> stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
>>
>
> Just want to add another perspective to the above code... that would have
> applied too for anyone trying to get their first job, not just specifically
> Agile methodology in the field of programming in python. How did you get
> your first job? Are there many python work in Melbourne?
>
> I noticed that it is a common cry from my follow mates when they try to
> get a job for some income for the first time in their life. Not necessarily
> whinging, but it can be a frustrated experience. How would anyone get their
> first job?
>

Graduate job programs can help, because they are designed to take people
with little or no real world experience.  That's essentially what I went
through, though not with one of the bigger companies.  I also had prior
experience and part time software development work during University, which
probably helped.

A word of warning, though: I didn't realise when I started how much
influence the choice of a first job can have on your career path.  I
happened to choose financial services, and have seen a number of people job
hop between different financial services jobs where their experience is
valued.  Switching to a different domain and toolset is certainly possible,
but the same trap applies: it can be hard establishing the required
experience.  Particularly if you want to go somewhere quite different, like
game programming, data science, or embedded systems.  Depends very much on
the employer, so YMMV.

Jon

>
> Cheers!
> Sunny
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
>
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From jonmmorgan at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 09:13:26 2016
From: jonmmorgan at gmail.com (Jonathan Morgan)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 01:13:26 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <1454336912.915829.508455554.22D49101@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com> <87h9huzlow.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <557793.16a1e9031313a668245df8345b0ad71ad8b19fdd@popretr.messagingengine.com>
 <1454336912.915829.508455554.22D49101@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOKcO6=Xt7GachtgVO91=za4TsGM6=K9qgJgWZDYFzeuHpYMw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:28 AM, David Nugent <deeprave at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> Just my 2c worth...
>
> Like yourself, I've worked in this industry a lot of years, and
> personally found that the word "agile" is very overloaded. In fact, the
> term itself is just a broad methodology of incremental development that
> is in no way industry specific, and it covers a few variant disciplines.
>

I agree.  I have worked in several "agile" environments (both good and
bad).  All incremental, but none of them have born much resemblance to the
Scrum sheet earlier in this thread.  In my current job, we follow all four
of the fundamental agile manifesto "We prefer A over B" - and I like that.
We don't do Scrum, and I don't mind that.  Maybe not all our practices are
perfect, but they work for us and our customers, and that's kinda more
important than having the right "agile" tick.

It feels like it wasn't too many years ago when Extreme Programming was the
one everyone talked about.  Now Scrum seems the one.
To me, one of the important things is choosing an agile process for the
right reasons.
When I was in Uni, "agile" meant "Not having to do all the annoying massive
design documents our lecturers said we should do".
I've seen "extreme programming" used to mean "Let's just ignore the design
of the system and see what happens when we wing it"  (hint: XP has checks
and balances that are meant to guide the design while keeping it simple...)
Yes, I've seen issues with massive documents and unwieldy design up front,
and I'd much prefer not to do either of those things.
But the process has to be picked to try and develop better software and be
more responsive to the customer's needs, not because of laziness or
buzzword compliance.


> But what most call "agile" in the software industry is a discipline
> called "scrum"; referring to a highly collaborative team-based approach
> that follows a particular set of principles and role structure. In
> practice, workplaces implement it slightly differently, with various
> degrees of success, depending on the personalities and capabilities of
> those involved.
>
> While there's certainly something to be learned from adopting an agile
> approach, it isn't the utopia that some make it out to be. It takes
> people to drive it, and at the end of the day it's people and not the
> process that gets stuff done.
>

Good call.
I'd just stress again that in many industries a lot of the "people" you
work with or that influence the decisions will be customers, not
developers, and they will have a big say into whether agile meets their
needs and what the process should look like.

Jon


>
> > > "... as long as the candidate showed a willingness to operate in an
> > > agile way."
> >
> > Hmmm. Wonder if I need to be better at communicating this. Just a
> > thought.
> > --
> > Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>
>
> Regards,
> --
> David Nugent (deeprave at gmail.com)
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From bianca.rachel.gibson at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 02:14:21 2016
From: bianca.rachel.gibson at gmail.com (Bianca Gibson)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 07:14:21 +0000
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CAOOKcO6=Xt7GachtgVO91=za4TsGM6=K9qgJgWZDYFzeuHpYMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com> <87h9huzlow.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <557793.16a1e9031313a668245df8345b0ad71ad8b19fdd@popretr.messagingengine.com>
 <1454336912.915829.508455554.22D49101@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAOOKcO6=Xt7GachtgVO91=za4TsGM6=K9qgJgWZDYFzeuHpYMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOZrvMM3J0LzxwXabN_xwXx6noz6wR4hko-km_JJ_Q-NyJNtHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian,
I think they should be assessing your willingness to adopt agile and how
much the values resonate with you, not years of agile experience. From what
I've seen whether the resume says 'agile experience' or not doesn't
necessary tell us whether they get agile at all - some candidates have been
told that their team is agile when it really isn't. If you've got
compatible attitudes you can pick it up pretty easily.
I'd suggest looking in to agile more, and if you're specifically interested
in agile then put something about moving to an agile environment in your
cover letter or a blurb at the top of your resume. Draw some links between
stuff you've done and agile principles that you can bring out in
interviews. If you'd be interested in joining us at realestate.com.au
please contact me off list, we have positions available I'd be happy to
talk to you about :)

Cheers,
Bianca

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 at 01:37 Jonathan Morgan <jonmmorgan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:28 AM, David Nugent <deeprave at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> Just my 2c worth...
>>
>> Like yourself, I've worked in this industry a lot of years, and
>> personally found that the word "agile" is very overloaded. In fact, the
>> term itself is just a broad methodology of incremental development that
>> is in no way industry specific, and it covers a few variant disciplines.
>>
>
> I agree.  I have worked in several "agile" environments (both good and
> bad).  All incremental, but none of them have born much resemblance to the
> Scrum sheet earlier in this thread.  In my current job, we follow all four
> of the fundamental agile manifesto "We prefer A over B" - and I like that.
> We don't do Scrum, and I don't mind that.  Maybe not all our practices are
> perfect, but they work for us and our customers, and that's kinda more
> important than having the right "agile" tick.
>
> It feels like it wasn't too many years ago when Extreme Programming was
> the one everyone talked about.  Now Scrum seems the one.
> To me, one of the important things is choosing an agile process for the
> right reasons.
> When I was in Uni, "agile" meant "Not having to do all the annoying
> massive design documents our lecturers said we should do".
> I've seen "extreme programming" used to mean "Let's just ignore the design
> of the system and see what happens when we wing it"  (hint: XP has checks
> and balances that are meant to guide the design while keeping it simple...)
> Yes, I've seen issues with massive documents and unwieldy design up front,
> and I'd much prefer not to do either of those things.
> But the process has to be picked to try and develop better software and be
> more responsive to the customer's needs, not because of laziness or
> buzzword compliance.
>
>
>> But what most call "agile" in the software industry is a discipline
>> called "scrum"; referring to a highly collaborative team-based approach
>> that follows a particular set of principles and role structure. In
>> practice, workplaces implement it slightly differently, with various
>> degrees of success, depending on the personalities and capabilities of
>> those involved.
>>
>> While there's certainly something to be learned from adopting an agile
>> approach, it isn't the utopia that some make it out to be. It takes
>> people to drive it, and at the end of the day it's people and not the
>> process that gets stuff done.
>>
>
> Good call.
> I'd just stress again that in many industries a lot of the "people" you
> work with or that influence the decisions will be customers, not
> developers, and they will have a big say into whether agile meets their
> needs and what the process should look like.
>
> Jon
>
>
>>
>> > > "... as long as the candidate showed a willingness to operate in an
>> > > agile way."
>> >
>> > Hmmm. Wonder if I need to be better at communicating this. Just a
>> > thought.
>> > --
>> > Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
>> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> --
>> David Nugent (deeprave at gmail.com)
>> _______________________________________________
>> melbourne-pug mailing list
>> melbourne-pug at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From john.knight at tequity.com.au  Thu Feb  4 02:34:17 2016
From: john.knight at tequity.com.au (John Knight)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 18:34:17 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CAOZrvMM3J0LzxwXabN_xwXx6noz6wR4hko-km_JJ_Q-NyJNtHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com> <87h9huzlow.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <557793.16a1e9031313a668245df8345b0ad71ad8b19fdd@popretr.messagingengine.com>
 <1454336912.915829.508455554.22D49101@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAOOKcO6=Xt7GachtgVO91=za4TsGM6=K9qgJgWZDYFzeuHpYMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOZrvMM3J0LzxwXabN_xwXx6noz6wR4hko-km_JJ_Q-NyJNtHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <032701d15f1e$7495d890$5dc189b0$@tequity.com.au>

Sound advice ? you need to at least show that you?re an advocate of such practices and principles? All the best, John

 

John Knight, Tequity - Company Director & Tech Agent

Code the Future, Volunteer Director to get 10,000 kids coding in schools

Atlantis Tower, Suite 3201/288 Spencer St

Melbourne, VIC 3000

 

T  +61 3 9670 9056

M +61 402 234 813

Add me here  <http://www.linkedin.com/in/JKtequity> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JKtequity

 <http://www.tequity.com.au/> www.tequity.com.au

 

 

 

From: melbourne-pug [mailto:melbourne-pug-bounces+john.knight=tequity.com.au at python.org] On Behalf Of Bianca Gibson
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2016 6:14 PM
To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile

 

Hi Brian,

I think they should be assessing your willingness to adopt agile and how much the values resonate with you, not years of agile experience. From what I've seen whether the resume says 'agile experience' or not doesn't necessary tell us whether they get agile at all - some candidates have been told that their team is agile when it really isn't. If you've got compatible attitudes you can pick it up pretty easily. 
I'd suggest looking in to agile more, and if you're specifically interested in agile then put something about moving to an agile environment in your cover letter or a blurb at the top of your resume. Draw some links between stuff you've done and agile principles that you can bring out in interviews. If you'd be interested in joining us at realestate.com.au <http://realestate.com.au>  please contact me off list, we have positions available I'd be happy to talk to you about :)

Cheers,

Bianca

 

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 at 01:37 Jonathan Morgan <jonmmorgan at gmail.com <mailto:jonmmorgan at gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi David,

 

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:28 AM, David Nugent <deeprave at gmail.com <mailto:deeprave at gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi Brian,

Just my 2c worth...

Like yourself, I've worked in this industry a lot of years, and
personally found that the word "agile" is very overloaded. In fact, the
term itself is just a broad methodology of incremental development that
is in no way industry specific, and it covers a few variant disciplines.

 

I agree.  I have worked in several "agile" environments (both good and bad).  All incremental, but none of them have born much resemblance to the Scrum sheet earlier in this thread.  In my current job, we follow all four of the fundamental agile manifesto "We prefer A over B" - and I like that.  We don't do Scrum, and I don't mind that.  Maybe not all our practices are perfect, but they work for us and our customers, and that's kinda more important than having the right "agile" tick.

It feels like it wasn't too many years ago when Extreme Programming was the one everyone talked about.  Now Scrum seems the one.

To me, one of the important things is choosing an agile process for the right reasons.

When I was in Uni, "agile" meant "Not having to do all the annoying massive design documents our lecturers said we should do".

I've seen "extreme programming" used to mean "Let's just ignore the design of the system and see what happens when we wing it"  (hint: XP has checks and balances that are meant to guide the design while keeping it simple...)

Yes, I've seen issues with massive documents and unwieldy design up front, and I'd much prefer not to do either of those things.

But the process has to be picked to try and develop better software and be more responsive to the customer's needs, not because of laziness or buzzword compliance.

 


But what most call "agile" in the software industry is a discipline
called "scrum"; referring to a highly collaborative team-based approach
that follows a particular set of principles and role structure. In
practice, workplaces implement it slightly differently, with various
degrees of success, depending on the personalities and capabilities of
those involved.

While there's certainly something to be learned from adopting an agile
approach, it isn't the utopia that some make it out to be. It takes
people to drive it, and at the end of the day it's people and not the
process that gets stuff done.

 

Good call.

I'd just stress again that in many industries a lot of the "people" you work with or that influence the decisions will be customers, not developers, and they will have a big say into whether agile meets their needs and what the process should look like.

Jon

 


> > "... as long as the candidate showed a willingness to operate in an
> > agile way."
>
> Hmmm. Wonder if I need to be better at communicating this. Just a
> thought.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz <mailto:brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> >
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/


Regards,
--
David Nugent (deeprave at gmail.com <mailto:deeprave at gmail.com> )

_______________________________________________
melbourne-pug mailing list
melbourne-pug at python.org <mailto:melbourne-pug at python.org> 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug

_______________________________________________
melbourne-pug mailing list
melbourne-pug at python.org <mailto:melbourne-pug at python.org> 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug

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From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Sat Feb  6 20:02:53 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 12:02:53 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CAMNOPV6dsJ-Z84RnZFujLfgyEuYSYJGHa9bCGF=0M0PdzRMAmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CAMNOPV6dsJ-Z84RnZFujLfgyEuYSYJGHa9bCGF=0M0PdzRMAmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87k2mhuybm.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Sunny <sunny at mhfa.com.au> writes:

> Just want to add another perspective to the above code... that would have
> applied too for anyone trying to get their first job, not just specifically
> Agile methodology in the field of programming in python. How did you get
> your first job? Are there many python work in Melbourne?

The jobs I have got in the past are from meeting people at conferences
and user group meetups and knowing people from conferences and user
group meetups.

Which is possibly an indication that I am not really good at selling
myself at interviews. Especially when the interviewer is a non-technical
type person and doesn't understand the cool technical things that I do
in my time. In this case, do you keep giving lots of technical details
and overwhelm the interviewer, and do you simplify your responses and
risk underwhelming the interviewer?

I think the solution to this is that you need to know what the
interviewer is looking for by asking the question, and for a
non-technical interviewer it is unlikely that they want to know the full
technical details. Which is unfortunate as it is the technical details
which I know and can describe the best.
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From anthony.briggs at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 21:07:56 2016
From: anthony.briggs at gmail.com (Anthony Briggs)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 13:07:56 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <87k2mhuybm.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CAMNOPV6dsJ-Z84RnZFujLfgyEuYSYJGHa9bCGF=0M0PdzRMAmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87k2mhuybm.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CAO4-388H-xqFQH6o=FFSYOK0PpkUKrGR-BggHdieQditncW-bg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian,

The trick there is to put your "cool technical things" in the right
business or user context, for example:

   - cut system response times
   - make whatever system you're working on easier to understand
   - give them more control
   - lower cost
   - better uptime
   - reduced risk
   - deliver features faster
   - etc.

This will *all depend* on who you're talking to (eg. CEO vs. direct manager
vs. HR vs. "internal customer" vs. ...). And if the cool technical things
don't have any impact along those lines, generally you shouldn't be doing
them :)

Usually in an interview (esp. at the more senior levels), you're looking
for a 'fit' - ie. here's cool stuff that I can do which will help your
organisation. Focus on that, rather than trying to fill out their interview
checkboxes, and you'll find a lot of the other stuff that you're 'supposed'
to do, such as

   - having clear technical skills
   - asking focused, directed Qs
   - researching the org
   - generally being personable and easy to get along with
   - etc

will come along with it. eg. if you don't know what the company does, you
have no idea where you fit in, other than "I am a Python dude" and start
talking about technical Python things -- in which case *you lose*, because
if they're non-technical they have no way to evaluate that.

My 2c worth,

Anthony

*ps.* As an example of this, I interviewed at a relatively large company
where Agile/Scrum was a big component of what they were looking for. I
didn't (and still don't) have any formal qualifications or much experience
in that direction, which they were keen on, but I was broadly familiar with
the terms, how you apply them, could talk about it and so on. This would
normally be a bust or a 'meh', but we actually instead ended up spending
most of the interview with me (nicely) giving them shit about their unit
tests / testing and telling them what I would do to get it back on track. I
ended up landing that one, because it was obvious that I would add value.

(That, in turn, was from a "sneaky" question that I normally ask in
interviews - "What was the last unit test you wrote, and what did it
cover?", which I've found is a much more effective way of figuring out
whether they're doing tests than asking "Do you do unit tests?" - the
answer to that is usually "yes", regardless :) )


On 7 February 2016 at 12:02, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:

> Sunny <sunny at mhfa.com.au> writes:
>
> > Just want to add another perspective to the above code... that would have
> > applied too for anyone trying to get their first job, not just
> specifically
> > Agile methodology in the field of programming in python. How did you get
> > your first job? Are there many python work in Melbourne?
>
> The jobs I have got in the past are from meeting people at conferences
> and user group meetups and knowing people from conferences and user
> group meetups.
>
> Which is possibly an indication that I am not really good at selling
> myself at interviews. Especially when the interviewer is a non-technical
> type person and doesn't understand the cool technical things that I do
> in my time. In this case, do you keep giving lots of technical details
> and overwhelm the interviewer, and do you simplify your responses and
> risk underwhelming the interviewer?
>
> I think the solution to this is that you need to know what the
> interviewer is looking for by asking the question, and for a
> non-technical interviewer it is unlikely that they want to know the full
> technical details. Which is unfortunate as it is the technical details
> which I know and can describe the best.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From ed at pythoncharmers.com  Mon Feb 15 02:24:57 2016
From: ed at pythoncharmers.com (Ed Schofield)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:24:57 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group - "March" meeting: Monday 29
 February @ VLSCI
Message-ID: <CA+8hrDgtTJNtFwSYjWg7beDZbBeXLLj5td0Ua2D5-KEh9D7uQg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone!

The next Melbourne Python User Group meeting will be on Monday 29 February
at VLSCI (Victorian Life Sciences Computation Initiative). This will be our
March meeting brought forward by a week (due to venue availability,
pretending it's not a leap year).

Huge thanks to VLSCI for offering to host the meeting and to Juan
Nunez-Iglesias for arranging this!

I will be away for the next meeting but Juan has kindly offered to host it.
Expect the usual range of talks, pizza, drinks, and stimulating
conversation!

We're still looking for speakers! If you're interested, please get in touch!

Going forward, the plan is to trial VLSCI as a new venue for 2016 due to
some recent changes of policy with Inspire9 around starting time and
pricing. Inspire9 is hoping to have a new events space opening later in the
year, so we can review the situation then. Meanwhile, thanks to Inspire9
for hosting us for the last several years and to Python Charmers for
sponsoring the venue fees since October 2014.

Best wishes,
    Ed

-- 
Dr. Edward Schofield
Python Charmers
http://pythoncharmers.com
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From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Feb 15 02:30:40 2016
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:30:40 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group - "March" meeting: Monday 29
 February @ VLSCI
References: <CA+8hrDgtTJNtFwSYjWg7beDZbBeXLLj5td0Ua2D5-KEh9D7uQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85twla4ehr.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ed Schofield <ed at pythoncharmers.com> writes:

> The next Melbourne Python User Group meeting will be on Monday 29
> February at VLSCI (Victorian Life Sciences Computation Initiative).
> This will be our March meeting brought forward by a week (due to venue
> availability, pretending it's not a leap year).
>
> Huge thanks to VLSCI for offering to host the meeting and to Juan
> Nunez-Iglesias for arranging this!

Thank you both. Can we know the venue details, or is it a test of our
investigative skills? :-)

-- 
 \       ?For fast acting relief, try slowing down.? ?Jane Wagner, via |
  `\                                                       Lily Tomlin |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney


From jni.soma at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 02:34:45 2016
From: jni.soma at gmail.com (Juan Nunez-Iglesias)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:34:45 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group - "March" meeting: Monday 29
 February @ VLSCI
In-Reply-To: <85twla4ehr.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CA+8hrDgtTJNtFwSYjWg7beDZbBeXLLj5td0Ua2D5-KEh9D7uQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <85twla4ehr.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CA+JHcKRqa4MJGtibEyM--hNyRdiVDheHPYxu=Zk3PGoHeX4F8w@mail.gmail.com>

LOL

VLSCI
Lab-14
700 Swanston St
Carlton, VIC, 3053

Access to the building will be... interesting, but details to come. =)

Juan.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>
wrote:

> Ed Schofield <ed at pythoncharmers.com> writes:
>
> > The next Melbourne Python User Group meeting will be on Monday 29
> > February at VLSCI (Victorian Life Sciences Computation Initiative).
> > This will be our March meeting brought forward by a week (due to venue
> > availability, pretending it's not a leap year).
> >
> > Huge thanks to VLSCI for offering to host the meeting and to Juan
> > Nunez-Iglesias for arranging this!
>
> Thank you both. Can we know the venue details, or is it a test of our
> investigative skills? :-)
>
> --
>  \       ?For fast acting relief, try slowing down.? ?Jane Wagner, via |
>   `\                                                       Lily Tomlin |
> _o__)                                                                  |
> Ben Finney
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Mon Feb 15 02:42:22 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:42:22 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group - "March" meeting: Monday 29
 February @ VLSCI
In-Reply-To: <85twla4ehr.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CA+8hrDgtTJNtFwSYjWg7beDZbBeXLLj5td0Ua2D5-KEh9D7uQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <85twla4ehr.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <87y4amo1wh.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> writes:

> Thank you both. Can we know the venue details, or is it a test of our
> investigative skills? :-)

VLSCI is at the old Womens Hospital, corner of Gratten Street and
Swanston Street, North East side.

If this link works:

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/VLSCI/@-37.7999905,144.9553634,15z/data=!4m5!1m2!2m1!1svlsci!3m1!1s0x6ad642d3199ff813:0x1a0ee743efded9b4?hl=en
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From brianna.laugher at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 18:20:24 2016
From: brianna.laugher at gmail.com (Brianna Laugher)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:20:24 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python in Australian Education Seminar returns for
 PyCon AU 2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPjwCjtdRiTsn1XJfUz+4J-zoLtTHoNa3mrepQ35pztYfiri_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPjwCjtdRiTsn1XJfUz+4J-zoLtTHoNa3mrepQ35pztYfiri_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjwCjtVchBkru-8hrRg3Ye8RivDYbX-3QY0k+yTidoMZBXqTQ@mail.gmail.com>

PyCon AU 2016 is happy to announce the second of our special events, the
Python in Australian Education seminar! This annual, one-day event brings
together professional educators across primary, secondary and tertiary
levels, as well as Python community workshop organisers, professional
Python instructors, and Python developers interested in better engaging
with the Australian educational community. This multi-disciplinary approach
allows representatives of these groups to share their personal experiences
and interests in relation to the use of Python in Australian education, and
to identify areas of potential collaboration with each other and with the
broader Python community.

Python is a popular ?first language? for programmers young and old,
especially those making the transition from graphical programming
environments like Scratch to text based development. Teaching with Python
also offers many opportunities to connect with the wider technology
community, as Python is also frequently adopted for real world software
development, being cited by IEEE Spectrum magazine as one of the top 5 most
widely used programming languages in industry [1].

?The inaugural version of this event in Brisbane provided a wonderful
opportunity to help foster greater collaboration between Australian
educators and the Australian open source community, so it's exciting to be
bringing that opportunity to Melbourne in 2016? said event co-coordinator
and Python Software Foundation board member, Nick Coghlan.

Those curious as to just what this seminar is about may want to take a look
at the recorded presentations from the 2015 event [2]. More information
about the 2016 call for presentations and how to get involved will be
circulated as we get closer to the conference. For now, block out your
diaries on August 12th (or for the whole conference from August 12th to
16th), start preparing your travel plans and talking to your principal in
preparation for this unique event.

[1]
http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-2015-top-ten-programming-languages

[2] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLs4CJRBY5F1I5vuApyUXp6bLWly1E-b0s

=== About PyCon Australia ===

PyCon Australia is the national conference for the Python programming
community. The seventh PyCon Australia will be held on August 12-16 2016 in
Melbourne, bringing together professional, student and enthusiast
developers with a love for programming in Python. PyCon Australia informs
the country?s developers with presentations by experts and core developers
of Python, as well as the libraries and frameworks that they rely on.

To find out more about PyCon Australia 2016, visit our website at
http://pycon-au.org, follow us at @pyconau <https://twitter.com/pyconau> or
e-mail us at contact at pycon-au.org.
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From Nicholas.Mellor at medibank.com.au  Tue Feb 23 21:01:24 2016
From: Nicholas.Mellor at medibank.com.au (Nicholas Mellor)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 02:01:24 +0000
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python job opportunity in Melbourne
Message-ID: <ME1PR01MB02100ECA0E82D05AE00CA10FAAA50@ME1PR01MB0210.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Hi guys,

I'm a developer/automation tester at Medibank. I had a good look at the following Python project myself because I was considering whether to take it on. Unfortunately I can't at the moment as other things have taken priority.

The project is focussed on health outcomes. It's well documented, with recent updates 90% done and a need to migrate it to the cloud. The existing version has been running trouble-free for several years.

Would anyone here be able to take it on? Here's what they're asking for:

We are looking for a capable web developer with strong 'Operations' skills. You will work with a DevOps team and business managers to migrate a legacy production service to AWS, provide reports and eventually rewrite components of the service as stand-alone services.

*Experience with legacy software
*Proficient in using Puppet
*Knowledge in building and maintaining services using AWS infrastructure (EC2, RDS)
*Familiarity with Nginx
*Solid SQL skills (preferably Postgres)
*Comfortable using distributed version control systems (preferably Git)
*Ability to work independently and prioritise streams of work from multiple clients
*Strong documentation and communication skills

Desirable skills:
*Experience with Atlassian stack (particularly Bamboo)
*Sendmail/postfix
*Deep Python skills
*Proficient with microservices and REST APIs.

Please contact me if you're interested.

Nick

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
______________________________________________________________________
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From Nicholas.Mellor at medibank.com.au  Tue Feb 23 21:02:31 2016
From: Nicholas.Mellor at medibank.com.au (Nicholas Mellor)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 02:02:31 +0000
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python job opportunity in Melbourne
Message-ID: <ME1PR01MB02100A5A08198A56001734FEAAA50@ME1PR01MB0210.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

I've been advised that I can drop the following:


-        Proficiency in Puppet

-        Proficiency with NGINX

from REQUIRED to DESIRABLE.

Thanks,

Nick

From: Nicholas Mellor
Sent: Wednesday, 24 February 2016 1:01 PM
To: 'melbourne-pug at python.org' <melbourne-pug at python.org>
Cc: Ally Akbarzadeh <Ally.Akbarzadeh at medibank.com.au>; Megan Kwee <Megan.Kwee at medibank.com.au>
Subject: Python job opportunity in Melbourne

Hi guys,

I'm a developer/automation tester at Medibank. I had a good look at the following Python project myself because I was considering whether to take it on. Unfortunately I can't at the moment as other things have taken priority.

The project is focussed on health outcomes. It's well documented, with recent updates 90% done and a need to migrate it to the cloud. The existing version has been running trouble-free for several years.

Would anyone here be able to take it on? Here's what they're asking for:

We are looking for a capable web developer with strong 'Operations' skills. You will work with a DevOps team and business managers to migrate a legacy production service to AWS, provide reports and eventually rewrite components of the service as stand-alone services.

*Experience with legacy software
*Proficient in using Puppet
*Knowledge in building and maintaining services using AWS infrastructure (EC2, RDS)
*Familiarity with Nginx
*Solid SQL skills (preferably Postgres)
*Comfortable using distributed version control systems (preferably Git)
*Ability to work independently and prioritise streams of work from multiple clients
*Strong documentation and communication skills

Desirable skills:
*Experience with Atlassian stack (particularly Bamboo)
*Sendmail/postfix
*Deep Python skills
*Proficient with microservices and REST APIs.

Please contact me if you're interested.

Nick

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
______________________________________________________________________
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From noonslists at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 17:19:46 2016
From: noonslists at gmail.com (Noon Silk)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 09:19:46 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] BAM 2016 - Optimisation. For Real - Call for
 Presentations
Message-ID: <CADt_azatAyxzT7sDUoht10MENVWQCzbeZb2-VWpDh6jQQLW2NA@mail.gmail.com>

BAM 2016: 4th Biarri Applied Mathematics Conference.
28-29, June, 2016, QUT, Brisbane, Australia
http://bamconf.com/

The world is changing around us. Optimisation --- which used to be hidden
behind closed doors --- is now at our fingertips shaping the way in which
we live our lives, move our goods, and make our decisions. From healthcare,
marketing, transport and manufacturing through to the deployment of next
generation fibre networks, optimisation is core to working in the 21st
century.


## About

The Biarri Applied Mathematics Conference is a free two day forum that
provides insight into how organisations apply optimisation and mathematical
techniques to solve problems in the real world.

The goal of the conference is to bring together researchers, practitioners,
and students and facilitate discussion on new methods, tools and techniques
that are applicable to real-word problems and deliver real-world results.

The theme this year is: Optimisation. For Real.


## Call for Presentations

For BAM 2016 we invite presentations on the application of:
 - Operations Research
 - Statistics
 - Optimisation
 - Machine Learning
 - and related fields

Across the domains of, but not limited to:
 - Utilities, Energy & Communications networks
 - Healthcare
 - Algorithmic Finance
 - Transportation
 - Logistics
 - Bioinformatics

Presentations should be no longer than 25 minutes, to be followed by at
least 5 minutes of questions.


## Submissions

Submissions should be made through EasyChair by submitting a presentation
title/abstract at https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=bam2016 (you will
need to create an EasyChair account, if you don't already have one).

Each submission should consist of:
  - A title
  - An abstract (no more than 300 words).
  - Speakers name and affiliation

Completed presentations are not required; but will need to be submitted in
advance of the conference, and will be made available on the website
following the conference.


## Sponsors

 - Biarri (http://biarri.com/biarri-group/)
 - QUT (https://www.qut.edu.au/)
 - AMSI (http://amsi.org.au/)


## Important Dates

Call for Presentations Open: 24th February, 2016
Call for Presentations Close: 25th March, 2016

Accepted Presentations announced: 4th April, 2016
Conference Registration Open: 4th April, 2016

Conference Day 1: 28th June, 2016
Conference Day 2: 29th June, 2016


## Organisers

 - Noon Silk (primary contact)
 - Suzanne Hutchinson
 - Ellie Foxcroft
 - Andrew Grenfell
 - Luke Josh


## More Information

Further information can be found on the website: http://bamconf.com/ or, by
enquiring through bam at biarri.com.

--
Noon

-- 
Noon Silk, ?

https://silky.github.io/

"Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy ? the joy
of being this signature."
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From jni.soma at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 03:46:31 2016
From: jni.soma at gmail.com (Juan Nunez-Iglesias)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 19:46:31 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Reminder: MPUG on Monday at VLSCI
Message-ID: <CA+JHcKR-dsKaVxbaPCJz79Um6ZWK4gbbytnJs-PVm=T=KiZTjg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

Just a reminder that our next meeting is this Monday, Feb 29th, at VLSCI,
700 Swanston Street. (There is a big "LAB - 14" sign out front.) I'll give
a quick "what's new in (scientific) Python" talk, and Nuwan Goonasekera
from VLSCI will talk about Python-Cloudbridge
<https://cloudbridge.readthedocs.org/en/latest/concepts.html>, "a simple
cross-cloud Python library".

See you there!

Juan.
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