[IronPython] Re: MSH vs IronPython

J. Merrill jvm_cop at spamcop.net
Thu Sep 30 17:02:07 CEST 2004 

<soapbox subject="MSH and scripting languages" notIronPython=true>

It's very annoying / disappointing / frustrating / stupid / typical that when MS decides that they need a "better" command-prompt language that, instead of using an existing scripting language that could do everything they want (like Python just to name one possibility), they invent something completely new and different with new syntax, new semantics, new everything.

Aren't there enough scripting languages already?  What capabilities does MSH have that couldn't be added to Python (or some other extensible scriptable language) by building an appropriate library?  Couldn't JScript.Net be the language, if they don't want to support Python?  Is the problem that Python is cross-platform, and thus not proprietary to MS?  Is the problem that .Net no longer locks you into Windows (thanks to Mono) so they don't want to use it for simple tasks?  (Are we supposed to build "production applications" in MSH that lock our users into Windows?  Are we going to be begging for MSH compilers and so on?  ARGHHH!)

Are MS intentionally trying to make everyone keep learning how to dance MS's new dances (to the same old songs) in order to prevent anyone from having the time to build anything that might actually provide some benefit to users, something that "accidentally" might not lock the users and developers into using Windows exclusively?

It's time for us to say ENOUGH in as loud a voice as the development community can muster.  I believe wholeheartedly in the .NET initiative; MS had gone a ridiculously long time without providing developers with _any_ programming environment with the productivity advantages that "managed languages" (like Python, Java, Ruby, APL, even J{ava}Script) provide.  But now that we've gone through the process of learning "the .NET way" they need to stop forcing us to learn yet another way of doing things when there are already many ways to do everything that a command-prompt language needs to do.

</soapbox>

At 05:33 PM 9/29/2004, Lloyd Dupont wrote
>>>>>in the doc they speak about a new-object type syntax, but that doesn't work.....
>>
>>I find your "review" somewhat misleading (the it doesn't work bit?) :)
>my "review" is really just a half an hour first imprssion before going to bed.
>furthermore, many things are really cool.
>I even stated (just as briefly) that you could easily browse registry, file system, environment, and that's cool.
>
>however it is stated in the GettingStarted.rtf
>"
>You can also call the constructor for a .NET type or bind to a ActiveXObject:
>
>MSH> $d= new-object System.DateTime 2004 12 1
>
>"
>and I was frustrated that new-object get me:
>'new-object' is not recognized as a cmdlet, function, operable program or script file.
>
>and a 'get-command' (cool tool to get..... the list of available command) gives me only 'new-item' as potential candidate, but it was not the one!
>
>aynyway it's very much a  beta product, as they said in the GettingStarted:
>"
>The MSH language is partially implemented at this time; the following constructs may be used from the command line:
>
>"
>
>however what work seems to work well, don't get me wrong!
>
>>MSH isn't really intended to be a script based application development
>>environment for developing object oriented applications - it really is
>>an administrative scripting tool that provides the glue that connects
>that was my impression too.
>you could "dir" (get-childitem) the environment, the file system, the regisry in a consistent manner, you almost believe they are same kind of object
>
>>IronPython addresses a different market - one more geared to take
>I think too... more and more..
>
>>advantage of its shell, concise yet elegant object oriented language,
>>and ability to easily reuse non-binary code - in order to create
>>somewhat more traditional executables and libraries.
>>
>>I'm blown away by MSH's object pipeline, composable architecture and
>>simple mechanism for command discovery - but dismayed by its $#*!
>>syntax.
>me too... and -lt 1 2 too.... but you could use 1<2 too :)
>and after half an hour yesterday, in the end, it becomes to be less alien.
>
>
>OK, time to go to work now, bye...
>
>>
>>I'm blown away by (Iron)Python's sheer productivity, concise predictable
>>syntax, interactive mode, dynamic (yet strongly-typed) types and ability
>>to produce (soon?) and consume CLR types - for more traditional
>>development.
>>
>>Alex Hoffman
>>
>>
>>----- Original message -----
>>From: "Lloyd Dupont" <ld at galador.net>
>>To: users-ironpython.com at lists.ironpython.com
>>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:59:43 +1000
>>Subject: Re: [IronPython] Re: users-ironpython.com Digest, Vol 2, Issue
>>20
>>
>>I could already gives you my 1st impression.
>>(but not yet the 2nd one...)
>>
>>it looks awfull and scriptic like
>>while ( $var -lt 10 ) { write-host $var; $var += 1 }
>>
>>and then it seems more file system oriented (I could get-childitem C: or
>>(better) dir HKCU:\Printers)
>>but I haven't been able to create a normal object (let say a form).
>>in the doc they speak about a
>>new-object type syntax, but that doesn't work.....
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall Burns" <randall_burns at yahoo.com>
>>To: <users-ironpython.com at lists.ironpython.com>
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:28 AM
>>Subject: [IronPython] Re: users-ironpython.com Digest, Vol 2, Issue 20
>>
>>
>>>
>>>--- users-ironpython.com-request at lists.ironpython.com
>>>>Message: 1
>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:50:17 +1000
>>>>From: "Lloyd Dupont" <ld at galador.net>
>>>What I've found:
>>>I tend to write stuff in Python over  bash or similar
>>>shells from the standpoint of maintainability-and
>>>avoiding a tower of babel(one language can do more).
>>>
>>>This works because the classes for doing stuff largely
>>>equivalent to bash are reasonbly mature in Python.
>>>What Microsoft _appears_ to be doing with this stuff
>>>is creating a next generation shell that takes
>>>advantage of some of the .NET features. That would I
>>>expect mean that to provide equivalent functionality,
>>>Python would
>>>need some new libraries/classes.
>>>
>>>I'd really like to know your thoughts as you get more
>>>familiar with MSH.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've been confirmed beta tester of MSH, should be
>>>>able to start testing
>>>>tomorrow (well, this wek-end)
>>>>however I have the feeling, somehow, that python has
>>>>a definitive edge which
>>>>is:
>>>>
>>>>Python could be embeded into your application, to
>>>>provide configurable UI.
>>>>Well, any kind of configuration in fact, that's
>>>>really great!
>>>>Infact even run-time modification (maybe there is
>>>>security setting to
>>>>investigate before though :S)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall Burns" <randall_burns at yahoo.com>
>>>>To: <users-ironpython.com at lists.ironpython.com>
>>>>Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:34 AM
>>>>Subject: [IronPython] Re: users-ironpython.com
>>>>Digest, Vol 2, Issue 18
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> How do folks see the new Microsoft command shell
>>>>> relates to IronPython? Will Iron Python be able to
>>>>> leverage any of this work?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/21/0153251&tid=201&tid=156&tid=8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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J. Merrill / Analytical Software Corp

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