From taleinat at gmail.com Sat Oct 13 17:51:56 2018 From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 00:51:56 +0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features Message-ID: Hi, I've recently been working on two new features, for which I'd like to discuss whether it would be wise to include in IDLE. Each has a working implementation in a PR to make it easy to give it a try. 1. Replace the search and replace dialogs with a search bar https://bugs.python.org/issue34976 https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/9855 2. Ability to run 3rd party code checkers https://bugs.python.org/issue21880 https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/9802 Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! - Tal Einat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From motoom at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 14 10:54:12 2018 From: motoom at xs4all.nl (Michiel Overtoom) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 16:54:12 +0200 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, > On 2018-10-13, at 23:51, Tal Einat wrote: > > 1. Replace the search and replace dialogs with a search bar > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Nice! What I regularly miss in IDLE is an option to search/replace within the selected text only. Greetings, -- "You can't actually make computers run faster, you can only make them do less." - RiderOfGiraffes From taleinat at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 11:01:33 2018 From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 18:01:33 +0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Hi Michael, On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 5:54 PM Michiel Overtoom wrote: > What I regularly miss in IDLE is an option to search/replace within the > selected text only. > I've noticed such a feature in some IDEs lately, though I don't normally use it. It seems to me that this feature could be implemented independently of switching to a search bar. It would likely work more smoothly with a search bar, though. I haven't been able to find such a feature suggestion on the issue tracker. You're welcome to create one if you'd find this feature useful! If you do, please give an example of when and how you would use it. - Tal Einat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at markroseman.com Mon Oct 15 20:12:15 2018 From: mark at markroseman.com (Mark Roseman) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 17:12:15 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 1. Replace the search and replace dialogs with a search bar I personally like those, at least for simple search. I?d be a bit more cautious when it comes to a full find/replace with options. One of the nice advantages of dialogs is that they?re large enough to provide meaningful labels on everything, optional help text, etc. If the target audience includes many learners, who likely don?t have the same experience with IDE?s, the search bar idea may be a bit too concise. Haven?t looked at your implementation. > 2. Ability to run 3rd party code checkers Sounds good to me! Mark From taleinat at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 04:46:18 2018 From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:46:18 +0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 3:30 AM Mark Roseman wrote: > > 1. Replace the search and replace dialogs with a search bar > > > I personally like those, at least for simple search. > > I?d be a bit more cautious when it comes to a full find/replace with > options. One of the nice advantages of dialogs is that they?re large enough > to provide meaningful labels on everything, optional help text, etc. If the > target audience includes many learners, who likely don?t have the same > experience with IDE?s, the search bar idea may be a bit too concise. > Haven?t looked at your implementation. > Our current find dialog isn't much clearer than a search bar: [image: image.png] For comparison, here's what the search bar in the current PR looks like on Windows: [image: image.png] ISTM a button like "Find Next" would indeed help. I'm thinking having two buttons, and up and down arrow, for "find next" and "find previous" respectively. Also, I think tooltips could help new users understand things. The "Reg-Exp" search flag could perhaps benefit from a "help" button, which would open some info about the syntax. Thoughts? - Tal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4391 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1993 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at markroseman.com Wed Oct 17 09:57:44 2018 From: mark at markroseman.com (Mark Roseman) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 06:57:44 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <51812001-68E6-470B-B4B1-DEAAD61CA66F@markroseman.com> > On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Tal Einat wrote: > Our current find dialog isn't much clearer than a search bar: > For comparison, here's what the search bar in the current PR looks like on Windows: Thanks for posting the images. While I?m not a big fan of the existing dialogs, I think when you try to replace the dialogs entirely you end up having to shoe-horn every feature into a small space. It also increases the complexity for new users. I think what?s there now is about at the limit, particularly if you?re using a fairly narrow window. One approach to this would be to not show some of the ?extra/advanced? options right off the bat in the search bar, but have a small progressive-disclosure icon that allows you to show or hide them (either shrinking the width of the entry, or increasing the height of the search bar to add a second row). Some people might always keep those extra options visible, some might open them just to make changes and immediately close them, others might never open them at all. How those options were set and if the extra options were shown or not would be stored in preferences for next time. Something to consider, even if for later. Another option is having a simple search bar and a full find dialog (as per screen shot, from TextMate) with separate menu items/shortcuts to trigger. Separates out a minimal version that you can use without interrupting your workflow vs. a full one. Works for me, not sure it?s right for Idle, given that adds another item to the menu which increases complexity and also of course the obvious duplication. Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: find-tm.png Type: image/png Size: 63486 bytes Desc: not available URL: From taleinat at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 14:09:50 2018 From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 21:09:50 +0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features In-Reply-To: <51812001-68E6-470B-B4B1-DEAAD61CA66F@markroseman.com> References:

<51812001-68E6-470B-B4B1-DEAAD61CA66F@markroseman.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark! On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:32 PM Mark Roseman wrote: > On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Tal Einat wrote: > Our current find dialog isn't much clearer than a search bar: > > For comparison, here's what the search bar in the current PR looks like on > Windows: > > Thanks for posting the images. > > While I?m not a big fan of the existing dialogs, I think when you try to > replace the dialogs entirely you end up having to shoe-horn every feature > into a small space. > I'm not convinced; it seems that there's enough room if we use it well. Here are, for example, the find and replace bars from PyCharm: [image: image.png] [image: image.png] They don't use anywhere near the full with of the window, and they include a few buttons which I'm sure we don't need in IDLE. It also increases the complexity for new users. > I think that the images in my previous email show that the level of complexity is exactly the same for the find dialog. I think what?s there now is about at the limit, particularly if you?re > using a fairly narrow window. > Which seems fine to me, as I think we wouldn't want to *increase* the complexity of this UI. > One approach to this would be to not show some of the ?extra/advanced? > options right off the bat in the search bar, but have a small > progressive-disclosure icon that allows you to show or hide them (either > shrinking the width of the entry, or increasing the height of the search > bar to add a second row). Some people might always keep those extra options > visible, some might open them just to make changes and immediately close > them, others might never open them at all. How those options were set and > if the extra options were shown or not would be stored in preferences for > next time. Something to consider, even if for later. > > Another option is having a simple search bar and a full find dialog (as > per screen shot, from TextMate) with separate menu items/shortcuts to > trigger. Separates out a minimal version that you can use without > interrupting your workflow vs. a full one. Works for me, not sure it?s > right for Idle, given that adds another item to the menu which increases > complexity and also of course the obvious duplication. > These are good options, thanks for bringing them up! They initially strike me as more complex than the existing straightforward UI, but I'll give it some more thought. - Tal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: find-tm.png Type: image/png Size: 63486 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4496 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 7073 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Irv at furrypants.com Thu Oct 18 13:10:32 2018 From: Irv at furrypants.com (Irv Kalb) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 10:10:32 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] Feedback appreciated for two suggested new features In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I don't have a strong opinion about the details of the search and replace dialogs. However, I can tell you that a change replacing the dialog box would be greatly appreciated. I teach Python classes using IDLE. The search dialog is a real a problem for new students and me as the teacher. My students and I often get into a scenario where the search dialog gets hidden behind a editing window. When that happens, then you try to make edits in code and nothing happens. This happens to very often. I have learned to look for the hidden search dialog window, but my students get very flustered. I think that a search bar would be a great improvement. If you can model it similar to the one in PyCharm, that would be wonderful. Thanks for looking into this issue. Irv > On Oct 13, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Tal Einat wrote: > > Hi, > > I've recently been working on two new features, for which I'd like to discuss whether it would be wise to include in IDLE. Each has a working implementation in a PR to make it easy to give it a try. > > 1. Replace the search and replace dialogs with a search bar > https://bugs.python.org/issue34976 > https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/9855 > > 2. Ability to run 3rd party code checkers > https://bugs.python.org/issue21880 > https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/9802 > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! > > - Tal Einat > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: